by Jennifer Hartley
This is the second essay in a series on the topic of why our family is homeschooling (Part I is here). I’ve been thinking about all the many, interconnected reasons that my educational philosophy has been taking the shape it has. Some overarching themes that I can point to are: collapse awareness, learning in and from the real world, and striving for a revised culture based on integrity, kindness, and respect rather than domination and control.
Collapse awareness shapes the way I see every institution of industrial culture: schools, governments, corporations, and all of their subsidiaries. What seems clear to me is that this dominant global culture is completely insane and murderous, in ways both maddeningly subtle and horrifically explicit. I think a large majority of Nature Bats Last readers/contributors can think of many examples of how this is so. Does it really make sense, given that I have a choice, to send my child into the maw of that culture, to be exposed for a huge number of her waking hours to the practices and narratives that most people consider “normal” and “adaptive”? Is it normal to train children from a very young age to submit unquestioningly to authority? Whose purposes does this serve? Is it a good use of children’s time to learn how to play the game known as School, in which they are pitted against their same-age peers to find out who the “winners” and “losers” are via a relentless onslaught of grades and testing, as well as assessments of behavioral “appropriateness”? What do these assessments actually measure? Whether one is categorized as a winner or a loser, does anyone actually “win” in a world of climate catastrophe, rampant species extinction, nuclear contamination, and brutal wars? What do children end up believing about the world and themselves in an environment characterized by competition and control? Too many children learn to shut up and play the game, because they are told they have no choice but to play it. They are told that if they are “good,” they will be rewarded with a college degree, a fulfilling career, and they will contribute to society as agreeable, functioning adults. Those who resist are treated quite harshly, often forcibly medicated or simply labeled and given up on.
Part of the gift of collapse awareness is to expose the rigamarole for what it is: a colossal game, a construct, something not based in fundmental reality. All of these assumptions about the value of schooling: are they for real? when we are quite likely facing the prospect of extinction of our own species? It’s a bracing realization, to take in the view of the scaffolding of the current culture as the set of a theatrical performance, rather than what we think of as “everyday life.” Everyday life, in fact, is about sunlight, plants, food, physical reality, biological reality, a viable planet to live on, and only on those fundmental elements does the cultural scaffolding get to remain up. Take, for example, discussions about “the economy.” Is the economy simply the measure of financial shenanigans, zeros and ones on a computer mostly, or is it entirely based on far more important forces in the real world? What good is the hope of a diploma, a job, a bank account, a reassuring identity, if one cannot be healthy and remain alive, on a planet with other healthy, alive beings?
I reject the assumption that school is the appropriate avenue for my child to learn how to become a functional adult. Our family life is organized around building resilience, maintaining our innate curiosity and love of learning, living with integrity, and fulfilling our moral imperative to be joyful while we are alive. Schools operate on the premise that our culture, our lives, will continue in pretty much the same way as they have for the past 50 years or so: everyone will be assigned their station, the “economy” will keep chugging along, just follow the formula and all will be well. Except all is not well, for crying out loud. For starters, I can’t even assume that my child will have a “normal” human lifespan. (And even if collapse wasn’t on the radar, in truth, we are all mortal, and we don’t know how long we’ve got.) I also don’t assume that schools, colleges, conventional workplaces, and so on —- those “everyday life” places —- will continue to exist in the way that they do now. Would it be responsible of me to have my child invest her energy in constructing her life on a crumbling scaffold?
Having my child learn within and from the natural world feels like the right thing to do. It’s disturbing to think that there’s even a phrase such as “the natural world,” as distinguished from… what? The unnatural world? Does this phrase indicate that we collectively grasp, in fact, that we are pathologically disconnected from nature, and from our natural selves? In our case, the natural world includes a large focus on being outside, connecting with plants and animals, relating to human beings of all ages, and respecting our own minds and hearts. We tend the garden. We are friends with earthworms. We make music and art freely, many times a day. We feel the sun and rain. We talk about patterns: the water cycle, the web of life, the sun and planets, the mesmerizing ubiquity of spirals. We sit enamored of the range of human narrative and experience, as we explore libraries and museums and attend performances. We love our cat, the bear that walked through our yard, owls, ocean creatures. I never ask her questions such as “What do you want to be when you grow up?” This is because our focus is on living fully in the present, rather than the imagined future. Each day brings choices and possibilities.
We aren’t attempting to save the world through homeschooling, or through any of our various efforts to disconnect from industrial empire. We aren’t going to save the world, period. What we can save is our dignity and sanity. We can save our ability to think freely. We can offer friendship and comfort to those around us. We can live according to our priorities as much as we possibly can, and when we face constraints we can repeatedly question whether they are absolute constraints, or manufactured constraints. I believe school is a manufactured constraint, not an inevitable force that children must submit to. A fundamental premise of mandatory schooling is that children must submit to the domination of the state. By exercising our legal and moral right to learn outside of school, guided by conscience, my daughter and I are participating in a much larger movement to create a human culture based on respect and peace. I don’t expect that this movement, vibrant, many-layered, and widespread as it is, will actually “save” us. But I’d rather follow my conscience to the end.
My daughter, who is five, has been asking me a lot of important questions lately. “What does ‘manipulate’ mean? Why are some people greedy? Why do some people watch a lot of TV? What is sexism? Why do people want money?” It’s challenging to answer her as fully as I can, in terms she can understand, but I try my best each time (and if I don’t know something, I say “I don’t know,” and if there are many angles to an issue, I try to include as many as I can). I want her to never stop asking why.
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Jennifer Hartley is a homeschooling mother, radical homemaker, permaculturally-inspired gardener, and local food activist. She was a founding board member of the non-profit Grow Food Northampton, and lives on a budding, quarter-acre homestead with her family in western Massachusetts. She is also a former reference librarian and still gets excited about connecting people with resources and ideas, helping people evaluate information, and collecting scads of books. These days she and her daughter can be found biking around town, harvesting violets and sprinkling them on salads, reading like mad, inventing songs, attending skillshares at Owl and Raven, studying chicken coop designs, and finding learning opportunities under every rock (literally).
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Guy’s forthcoming radio interview is described here. It will broadcast on Radio New Zealand Saturday morning at 8:00 a.m. If I’m doing the math correctly, that’s Friday at 4:00 p.m. on the east coast of the United States.
July 4th, 2012 at 11:07 pm
The most important skill omitted in public education is Critical Thinking.
As described in the Wikipedia link, Critical thinking is thinking that questions assumptions. It is a way of deciding whether a claim is always true, sometimes true, partly true, or false.
Without it, individuals and groups will behave in whichever way they are molded by TPTB.
This is because the intellect is steered by the pre-rational, non-verbal part of the mind, the seat of emotion and values: it can be programmed, as Josef Goebbels had pointed out, by repeatedly assertion. This is particularly effective if the assertion appeals to short-lived emotion, thus shaping longer-lasting values that channel the intellect in the desired direction.
The ability to assess every assertion up front is not innate. It has to be learnt and practiced to be effective. Learning how to think is in a different paradigm from learning what to think.
July 4th, 2012 at 11:10 pm
It is also to be remembered that every explicit assertion rests upon implicit assumptions.
July 5th, 2012 at 2:33 am
Jennifer your child is lucky to have you for a mother. Sounds like her questions are going to further your education as well
Robin, Since species that don’t have the feature of rational/critical thinking have lasted longer on the whole than it looks like the human species will last, perhaps it is not a evolutionary stable feature. But since we currently do exist and since people of ill will can use their rational thinking to deceive those not trained in its use, the training in critical thinking of our children is a must. The Texas GOP is making the case for homeschooling pretty strong.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/texas_gops_2012_platform_accidentally_opposes_teaching_of_critical_thinking_skills.php
The Republican Party of Texas’ recently adopted 2012 platform contains a plank that opposes the teaching of “critical thinking skills” in schools. The party says it was a mistake, but is now stuck with the plank until the next state convention in 2014.
The plank in question, on “Knowledge-Based Education,” reads as follows:
We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Elsewhere in the document, the platform stipulates that “[e]very Republican is responsible for implementing this platform.”
July 5th, 2012 at 4:44 am
As long as i can remember i’ve had problems with what is determined by others to be THE curriculum. Rigid, unwavering, since the 18th century, the same crap over and over with no meaningful changes. None of which prepares a person for the nebulous future they’ll face.
My middle son went to one of those few really grounded early educational schools (Steiner had a lot of influence on the design and course of studies i’m pretty sure) where they learned about plants and animals because the school was a working farm. The students planted, weeded, watered, picked, prepared and ate the produce; tended to the animals (cows, sheep, chickens as well as the pets – cats, dogs, rabbits, fish, etc.); while they learned Greek mythology (that he still remembers in his early 30′s), a love of reading, discussing and learning as much as they could, and basic math.
Sometimes i think the Amish out our way have it right – 8th grade ed is about as far as they go and growing food is the primary focus of all their learning.
Another thing that bothers me is that all of human discovery in math and science has been misused and appropriated (and now even driven by) the military and corporations for their own benefit and to subjugate the rest of us. Even higher math has been mis-applied to Wall Street to make money, but basically caused the crash in 2008 (see: The Formula that Killed Wall Street http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=3).
It goes on and on: Monsanto trying to patent and control food production on many fronts, the most dangerous of them being that they’re buying up as many seed companies as they can get their greedy hands on; they genetically modify seeds to die after one year so people have to go back to them year after year for seeds; their genetically modified crops are a real concern since what went into them could be anything from any other species including fish, animals, bacteria, viruses, etc. and there is no labelling required (due to their lobbying efforts, influence on “our” legislature).
The entire focus of modern education is to be a nameless cog in the giant machine of industrial society and not to develop or adapt to changing conditions. Over the years i heard complaints from thoughtful students asking what the point was of learning some sonnet or reading some long-winded book by some long dead author when they couldn’t fill out a job application; why did they need to learn quadratic equations when they were most likely never going to use the knowledge and didn’t understand the basic stuff like how insurance works, how to do one’s taxes, or the fact that things like car loans and mortgages are never explained. It all seems like so much “jumping through hoops” with no particular outcome expected.
i don’t hold out any hope of it changing and am actually looking forward to its demise along with the industrial economy.
July 5th, 2012 at 5:04 am
Here’s an explanation by Chris Hedges that touches on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7zotYU21qcU#!
July 5th, 2012 at 6:44 am
Tom
I think the overall game of so much high level content in the later study is so that those who manage to do extremely well fall into two camps. They either go on to be the ones who can negotiate the systems of power and rise to the top, or they are the high level specialists that TPTB need for critical functions like Neclear Fussion calculations and telecommunications systems or encryption systems and as you say all the obvious misuse of those skills you offered.
I say to students when they whine about the same thing that it is important to be exposed to a range of knowledge and skills that are involved in some broad ares of discipline. You are most likely not going to be interested in everthing you are introduced to. You are asked to look at the content, make an honest attempt at engaging with it, butg you will find along the way some of the material will be meaningful to you personaly, and you will grow a lot by following up on those things.
As an example I use a play by Shakespeare, and amid groans I confess something that helped me deal with the world. I tell them that the benifit of a largly free, broard public education is a great privelage, and to make the best use of it for themselves that they can.
My maths teacher was very good at showing concrete examples as to what quadratic equations were used for and such abstract things. I think a lot of the earlier educational philosophy was centreed around leveling the class playing field and minimising the limitations of the students family educational background as a factor, if it was so.
These days I think it should only take 3 hours of tutoring a day to educate children. TPTB have opted for a hell of a lot of childminding to enable parents to be absent to work to increase the GDP.
July 5th, 2012 at 7:23 am
Robin Datta: I couldn’t agree more about the importance of critical thinking. As a former academic reference librarian who would attempt to guide college students in evaluating information (i.e., use critical thinking skills), I can’t tell you how routinely alarmed I was at the general lack of those skills in young adults. And much of the time, they were also unmotivated and unconvinced about the importance of gaining those skills. The only thing that kept me going in that work environment were the exceptional students who had genuine motivation and curiosity.
Kathy C: YES, her questions absolutely further my education. I’m daily stunned by how much I learn from and alongside my child. When I say that we’re homeschooling, I mean to say that we are both students of life as well as teachers.
Also, my dear friend who is a professor in Texas says this: “The home schooled students I have had have been among the smartest, most disciplined, and most mature. And given the potential direction of education in Texas (thank you, Texas GOP), perhaps more parents should be homeschooling their kids here.”
Tom: I agree with you. And I think many people will be looking to homeschoolers for ideas and support when most institutional schooling meets its demise.
OZ man: “TPTB have opted for a hell of a lot of childminding to enable parents to be absent to work to increase the GDP.” Yes, I think a big role of schooling today is to serve as child care, so that parents can be more securely held captive by the industrial economy.
July 5th, 2012 at 8:57 am
We school at home too, with a state funded “charter school.” Most people around here homeschool for religious reasons, but we’re doing it for the simple fact that public schools are more and more resembling minimum security prisons, and the teachers acting like wardens, and the students acting like overcrowded rats devolving into a “behavior sink.”
Basically school has turned from a small community institution into a “social hierarchy with toxic pathologies,” as the following article puts it:
Plumbing the ‘Behavioral Sink’: Medical Historian Examines NIMH Experiments in Crowding
http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm
July 5th, 2012 at 9:22 am
The one major aspect of society that homeschooling often misses out on is society itself. There’s something to be said for participating in the system with others — learning both how it works and what its shortcomings are. Homeschooling can narrow the educational focus to the extreme, as an analogue to the context-aware search engines of our time. I would go as far as to say that hoping to learn from your child is a selfish desire… it should be almost entirely about him or her. And with seven billion people on the planet, things like targeted education, seed cloning, etc., are both inevitable and necessary. Maybe more people should concern themselves with not having kids in the first place (as opposed to the somewhat futile pursuit of managing them once they’re born).
July 5th, 2012 at 11:06 am
I enjoyed this essay immensely. Being a teacher for a decade plus allowed me to figure out my own path. Watching the system destroy the wonderment of learning was enough for me to leave. I could no longer participate in a process that had no desire to create thinkers.
Participating in a system is fine but if that system is harmful to its participants and the land base which we all depend upon then “learning” how it works is simply adding fuel to the fire. One doesn’t learn how a system works without being trapped by its shortcomings. Socializing is important but I can think of other ways it can be accomplished without subjecting someone to the complacency of public education.
July 5th, 2012 at 11:54 am
Thanks for the thoughts and reflections of my little rant. Really, there’s so much wrong with education that i could go on for days. One of the underlying problems is that it encourages competition rather than cooperation in almost everything and DEMANDS OBEDIENCE without question. i’ll leave it at that or this would turn into a book-length tirade.
Thanks to Jennifer for broaching the subject.
Privileged: i hear ya!
July 5th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
Publicly Schooled:
Do you believe that “society” equals “school”? I’m confused by your assertion that homeschooling misses out on “society.” Last time I checked, my family was living in a neighborhood and interacting daily with a multitude of other people who live around us. We actually leave the house, a lot. Every day, in fact. We encounter conflicts. We encounter people, children and adults of all ages, who are different from us, who have different ideals and priorities from us. We spend a great deal of time thinking about and interacting with “society.”
As for participating in “the system,” there is still much of industrial culture we must necessarily engage with. But in my view, after assessing the risks and benefits of formal schooling to the best of my ability, I’ve concluded that the risks outweigh the benefits by a wide margin. Clearly, you’ve concluded differently, and I don’t wish to persuade you otherwise. You are welcome to pursue the path that you feel is right.
“Homeschooling can narrow the educational focus to the extreme…” Sure, it can. So can school. Really depends on the context, eh? I won’t speak for other homeschooling families, but ours seeks a wide lens and a strong emphasis on interdisciplinary investigation. I haven’t written here about the entire scope of what we learn about, but I can tell you, it’s quite wide now (even with my daughter being 5 years old), and I hope it will only get wider.
“I would go so far as to say that hoping to learn from your child is a selfish desire… it should be almost entirely about him or her.” My primary focus is very much on my child, I’d like to assure you. But I don’t think it’s selfish or wrong for me to be learning from her at the same time. I think parents, whether they’re homeschooling or not, NEED to be learning from their children. If no learning is happening, I would go so far as to say that something is dreadfully wrong. Parenting is challenging and should cause anyone with the slightest bit of investment in it to grow, change, and learn. However, I also want to respond to your implication that a proper parent is always completely selfless and never focused on him- or herself. (And I would add that this charge is almost always leveled at mothers rather than fathers and contains not a small amount of sexist assumptions embedded in it.) The truth is, a responsible parent is one who makes sure to attend to her/his own needs as well as those of her/his child(ren). One can’t give from an empty well. I think you may be trying to make the point that children are not to be used as objects to satisfy the wants/needs of adults, which I agree with, but at least in my family, learning is not used as an instrument of exploitation. Learning alongside one another is very different from using each other.
Regarding people not having kids in the first place: One of the reasons I have only one child is because of my concerns about overpopulation. But still, I have one, and I don’t think it’s productive for me to feel self-recrimination at the fact that she’s alive. I don’t view parenting her as a “futile pursuit of managing” her. It seems you view children and parenting in a different light. So be it.
July 5th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Jennifer-
I have enjoyed your continuing essays on homeschooling. Thank you for your thoughtful and articulate explanation as to why some families choose to go this route. I also think your daughter is lucky to have you for her mother.
As is the case with Farmer in the Dell, most families in our area homeschool for religious reasons or to try to shelter their children from being bullied. All valid reasons from their points of view. As you describe the flawed public school system with all its shortcomings you have an equally valid reason for choosing to home school your daughter. Again, from your point of view. But I wonder if it is really that cut and dry.
“I reject the assumption that school is the appropriate avenue for my child to learn how to become a functional adult.”
Seems to me that school is only a part of that path. Much of the success or failure in becoming “functional” depends upon the parents and homelife of that child. Experiences at home can go a long way in determining how inquisitive, adaptive and well adjusted your child becomes. And I don’t think you can honestly say every experience your child receives within the public school system is a negative and harms her development. One positive role model–a teacher with some of the same characteristics as Guy, can overcome and outshine a dozen mediocre ones, and provide a clear path to a happy and fullfilling life. And there are many such teachers our there, trying to do just that.
If your situation allows you to homeschool your daughter, I applaud and respect your dedication and effort. But I felt it was necessary to point out the unfortunate fact that circumstances don’t allow many families to choose this path for their children. These families can still help their children prepare for whatever life has in store for them, and should not feel as though they are shortchanging their children’s future by not homeschooling. Just my two cents worth.
July 5th, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Jennifer,
You’re probably a fine parent, so please don’t take my criticisms personally. As is common within our species, you’re justifying your actions — both in your own mind and in front of an audience. I would only caution against keeping your children too close and attempting to shield them from the world. They’re eventually going to escape your umbrella, so letting them out into the wild — however routinely and briefly — makes sense from the earliest age possible. That way, you can discuss things they see and initially interpret on their own. It’s a path to critical thinking, if you will.
If you don’t want them to grow into wages slaves, teach them the ways of hunter-gatherers in addition to the “regular” schooling they receive. But don’t sell them short by restricting access to what most everyone else learns. They may actually choose a career over tending a garden, tanning hides, etc. And they might even change the world in ways you were unable to foretell.
You only have one daughter, and she’s barely of schooling age (as TPTB see it, anyway), so there’s plenty of time to change your tack. Or not. The choice is obviously yours.
Incidentally, having a child in the school system would give you an incentive to help steer that ship — presumably, for the benefit of everyone.
July 5th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
John Stassek:
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful comments. I agree that few issues are cut and dry. And I certainly don’t begrudge children any positive role models they receive, no matter the setting. It’s not my intention to convince people who are satisfied with schooling to give it up. I also think your point is valid that many families feel they have no choice in the matter; I’m not here to point fingers at individuals who are caught up in a larger system that makes unreasonable demands. I do think, though, that some families *could* homeschool if they decided that’s what they want. It’s not impossible for everyone. I know homeschooling families who have two parents working full time; homeschooling families that are low-income; a full gamut of different situations that people are in. So I have real, live examples of people who are making it work, and are happy about it.
Publicly Schooled:
Thanks for taking such an interest in making sure that my child is not over-protected or sold short. Believe it or not, I don’t intend to restrict my child’s access to information or experiences, nor do I presume to dictate her future career plans, nor do I presume to foretell the ways in which she may have an impact on the world. I genuinely hope you will caution parents who send their children to school in exactly the same way.
“There’s plenty of time to change your tack. Or not. The choice is obviously yours.” Um, yeah. You’re not trying to make me feel anxious or doubting, are you? I appreciate your concern.
“Incidentally, having a child in the school system would give you an incentive to help steer that ship–presumably, for the benefit of everyone.” I see your point. Except I don’t think it’s fruitful to invest my energy in an institution that I have no faith in. Nor do I believe it benefits others to send my child to school. There are others who have chosen to fight the battles of improving schools, and they put their hearts and souls into it. Good for them. That’s their path, not mine. I’m completely uninterested in institutional reform of any sort. To continue the analogy, I don’t think that ship is steerable; I think it’s already hit the iceberg.
July 5th, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Public Schooled, I’m with Jennifer. It does sound like you don’t approve of jennifer’s choice. But Jennifer isn’t harming anyone, including her daughter. This country was founded on live and let live.
July 5th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
Hey, it’s a free country (assuming you’re talking about the U.S. of A., whose borders don’t contain the Internets), and I certainly don’t begrudge Jennifer her free will. Just trying to present a reasonable counter-argument, really. People have been throwing in the towel and foretelling the End of Days for as long as people have been growing old (and, supposedly, wise). It’s natural from self-preservation and -centered points of view. The percentage of such predictions that have come to pass is very low, and humanity has generally thrived instead — at the expense of the planet and future generations, perhaps, but that’s a non sequitur.
Statements like these, taken from the title essay, are subjective (and deserve a counter-point for the sake of critical thinking):
- “Collapse awareness shapes the way I see every institution of industrial culture: schools, governments, corporations, and all of their subsidiaries.” …but not when it comes to procreation, as noted previously.
- “I reject the assumption that school is the appropriate avenue for my child to learn how to become a functional adult.” …I suspect that the author is herself a product of public schooling, and am an admitted one myself. And that seems to have worked out somehow. Or is it that things aren’t like they used to be?
I submit that the music *will* eventually stop, but that it’ll probably be long after we’re all history. And spending life consumed by the thought of this (or any) eventuality isn’t really living.
And what, exactly, are you with Jennifer on, Librarian? Her lack of interest in what may be good for society?
July 5th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Publicly Schooled
I think there is an issue with context in different societies, and the USA is but one of 200+ countries that this website will go to.
Because TPTB now dictate a world economy, or have for several hundred years, the way to ‘get ahead’ especially in developing countries is to have some basic education, now in English, but in French also in the past. We see the colonosers dictating language also.
So I do view a basic education as helping people in developing countries to improve their economic situation, and it is from that perspective that I advise students to value thier opportunities for education. No matter what we think of the iniquities of Empire, it is the present ‘system’ the majority of people are competing in and attempting to adapt to so they may ‘prosper’.
I think forums like this are one bring a range of inputs to change that, by individuals choosing to make other plans. Jennifers’ choices are her choices, and if she has found a way to legally love and nurture and guide her child, obviously not in a social vaccuum, then who can stop her, not that I would want to, so be it.
Back in the mid 1970′s I attended a community school for 2 years in 6th grade, repeating a year because I was a bit young in that grade. Although there was a lot of heady mix of ‘radical’ ideas being staged then this school was run by the parents, and had many of the features of homeschooling that jennifer outlined. A degree of Steiner and Montesouri educational philosophy permeated the small group atmospher, of about 20-25 children fro ages 6-12 y/o.
Any educator will tell you the better educational situations are where you have small student numbers to a teacher. One to one we call tutoring, and apart from the main lack of group social interaction is optimal for delivering guided remedial and advanced skills training etc.
Conversly, the bigger the class size ratio, here it is 30:1 in state schools, the poorer the trust and quality of individual relationships between teacher and student become. If TPTB had the intention of really improving on some of the known downsides of industrial scale schooling they would drastically reduce class sizes, and increase expenditure. TPTB see no need to spend any more money on the system, because the ones who matter to them, can and will find ways to pay for extra tutoring to compete for subsequent higher education places.
I benifitted enormously in that 2 year period at a community school because of all of the features that Jennifer outlined that relate to homeschooling. It was not idylic by any means, but the features that were meant to come into play did. Even though the other parents were not my own they gave me the same order of respect, attention, skill transfer, particularly in the creative arts, and also that my impulses and motivations were to be trusted as guides to future growth.
The areas I was week at, in particular were geography and spelling/written language then. When later attending high school I was considdrably behind in these two areas, but I was well prepared and motivated to learn these things as they came up. That was what my mother, as a single parent, was to be commended for. Having the trust and resolve, to believe that it is better for children to be enabled learn what they need to learn at any point in life, than be taught content without enabling the tools to progress.
The key to homeschooling, in my view, is the human being to being contact.
This runs counter to the majority of screen based experiences children, and adults too, are rapidly adapting to in the digital age.
Attention spans and shallow, immediately accessable content is training minds to only be able to accept quick uptake messages and visual information. This is in part due to the modern economic fact that digital time and bandwidth costs money, and the shorter the messages of empire, consumption and social formatting,(encoding prejudice and discrimination), the less cost for the interest groups who trade that content.
Lenghty periods in the company of others, while doing directed or free roaming activities occurs less and less in industrial life, and we are short changing our young’uns if we dont spend some of those formative years in some of these critical endeavours.
Exceptional teachers in the industrial system have the ability to mittigate the disadvantages of the ‘industrial’ aspects of the school setting, and develope a strong rapour with many students, and in that situation deliver close human education. They are rare, and I bet most of us remember them to this day, if we had one or two in our schooling.
With the pressure that the public education systems are under due to lack of investment, and systematic under resoursing, we see the rise of ugly competetative behaviour in and around these institutions, aka bullying that John Stassek cites and some places resembling minimum security prisons, as Farmer in the Dell cites.
Jennifer has given the most important thing a perent can give her child, time to deeply exchange what flows in each other day by day. Call that education, call it love, call it guidence, I call it being human.
July 6th, 2012 at 3:03 am
There is a distinction between society and community. Society is hierarchical, aligned vertically, and constraining horizontal interactions to an explicitly or implicitly prescribed enforceable framework. Community is oriented horizontally, and its framework for interactions is implicit, evolved through mutual understanding and consent rather than prescribed from above. (It is rarely explicit, since that would require a formal mechanism for enforcement, entailing a hierarchy.)
It is unfortunate that the word “communism” has taken on its current meanings and connotations; when originally used by Marx it referred to the nature of community, the very antithesis of hierarchical society that it has come to mean in non-communist countries. (In communist countries, the word “socialism” was used instead, and “communism” retained its original meaning of a non-hierarchical stateless community with voluntary communal ownership of the resources and means of production, a Utopian anarchy.
Hierarchical systems promote their power through disincentivizing and even penalizing horizontal interactions outside their prescribed framework. The transition from community to society is a lot easier than building community: it is much easier to know how to behave under the gun of the state than to develop implicit norms of conduct without prescription and enforcement. Those who have been raised outside hierarchical structures will have an easier time of building such community. It should also be remembered that an non-hierarchical relationship cannot be one in which learning is exclusively limited to one party.
Many would consider sacrificing a human being to the leviathan in a gambit for a little bit of leverage in controlling that leviathan a rather rash venture.
Choosing to reduce the population of one’s descendants by 50% in the next generation is still quite congruent with an appreciation of humanity’s predicament.
It is very difficult if not impossible to break out of an authoritarian mind-set. Such a mind-set is forged in the crucible of hierarchical family structures in childhood. Parental guidance while mandatory, becomes hierarchical when imposed arbitrarily.
July 6th, 2012 at 6:52 am
The origins of authoritarian thinking:
The Bomb in the Brain
July 6th, 2012 at 8:03 am
What we know about evolution would lead sensible people to conclude that there is nothing or precious little that can be done to change the human ‘trajectory’. So powerful is the force of evolution that we will “do what comes naturally” by continuing to overpopulate the planet and await the next phase of the evolutionary process. Even so, still hope resides within that somehow humankind will make use of its singular intelligence and other unique attributes so as to escape the fate that appears ‘as if through a glass darkly’ in the offing, the seemingly certain fate evolution appears to have in store for us. Come what may. In the face of all that we can see now and here, I continue to believe and to hope that we find adequate ways of consciously, deliberately and effectively doing the right things, according the lights and knowledge we possess, the things which serve to confront and overcome the ‘evolutionary trend’ which seems so irresistible.
July 6th, 2012 at 8:03 am
If we lived in normal times I would add this caution about raising children. The best of intentions may not get the results you hope for. I have seen kids turn completely around from the way they were raised as many times as I have seen them follow in their parents footsteps. Another danger is that in correcting our own parents failings of those of society we create new failings by trying too hard.
That said, these are not normal times. What kids need most is skills, ability to grow food, hunt, make do with little, observe, defend, hide etc. Of course when the grid fails and the nuclear power plants all go Fukushima what they need most is distance and favorable prevailing winds. Of course such locations won’t help unless they are also in favorable climates and who knows where that will be.
Here is a map of the world nuclear plants, now if we could just add prevailing winds….http://blogs.ft.com/energy-source/2011/03/16/the-nuclear-world-interactive-map/#axzz1zr3pR9WG Sibera looks good.
Hug everyone you love frequently and if you are still fertile get a permanent fix – wives if your husband had a vasectomy get a tubal too because in unstable political situations rape is more frequent. Love those who are here – DO NOT bring any new human into life in the horrors that await us.
July 6th, 2012 at 9:27 am
I continue to believe and to hope that we find adequate ways of consciously, deliberately and effectively doing the right things
Once Wile E. Coyote has run off the cliff, it is debatable if he can delay the inevitable by not looking down.
July 6th, 2012 at 10:43 pm
‘Is it normal to train children from a very young age to submit unquestioningly to authority? Whose purposes does this serve?’
it is normal in ‘america’, imo. a better question is is it smart? is it virtuous? is it rational? it is according to the ‘authorities’ who make ‘public’ schools what they are. as to whose purpose this serves, the answer is obvious: the myopic ‘authorities’.
‘Schools operate on the premise that our culture, our lives, will continue in pretty much the same way as they have for the past 50 years or so: everyone will be assigned their station, the “economy” will keep chugging along, just follow the formula and all will be well.’
schools produce a lot of fools. perhaps benthedonkey can say it better at slightly more length. there’s no shortage of ignorance/delusion in any section of society. it’s the product of many generations of dumbing down our species. many generations of dogmas. several generations of ‘public schooling’.
July 7th, 2012 at 8:11 am
http://peakoil.com/consumption/civilization-and-the-price-of-oil/
An article about Guy
July 7th, 2012 at 11:43 am
Off topic
New Wave of Three Gorges-Sized Dams Raise Old Fears
http://www.internationalrivers.org/blogs/246/new-wave-of-three-gorges-sized-dams-raise-old-fears
July 7th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Evolution has come to prescribe
Human life in a small, simple tribe,
So it doesn’t improve
When the mind tries to groove
To a complex industrial vibe.
July 7th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Ah Benjamin you did it again. Good one. I had been trying to do one based on Robin’s comments and got stuck, but you inspired me once again
Coyote’s gone over the cliff
Looking up, looking down what’s the diff
There still is not ground
Though he look all around
Either way he will end up a stiff
July 7th, 2012 at 5:14 pm
Kathy, thanks and good one yourself haha!
July 7th, 2012 at 11:48 pm
Off-topic:
Radio New Zealand National
Guy McPherson: Agrarian Anarchy
One point left unclarified in the interview was the distinction between tax, barter and gift.
A gift is proffered and accepted outside any context of fungibility. Any existing norm of reciprocity does not apply either explicitly or implicitly to any specific instance.
Barter is a mutually voluntary exchange of fungible items. A relative value is determined for each item and acknowledged by both parties.
A tax is a confiscation of one party’s assets regardless of their consent, by another party wielding the threat of force.
Another point left unclarified was abuut actions contributing to the termination of the industrial economy. It is true that those promoting such actions will be complicit in the ensuing suffering and early death. But it is to be remembered that the longer the collapse is delayed, the deeper the trajectory moves into overshoot, and the greater the numbers subject to the suffering and early death. Inaction through indifference, ignorance, denial makes one complicit in this.
July 8th, 2012 at 2:01 am
Jennifer,
I must say that I admire your philosophy on teaching in the face of Collapse. Seems very practical from my perspective, though near impossible from that of a normal citizen of civilisation – the Great Unconnected. How can you teach something you know little about and rarely experienced, if at all? But you answered that question I think – you do it for your family, not to spread it to deaf ears.
In reading your philosophy I was reminded that most home-schooling in Europe and America require home-schoolers to teach certain subject materials and offer proof that they have met state requirements at certain points. How do you intend to address this situation in the future?
And of course that question leads to teaching resources. What kinds of resources do you think you will use? Computer training? Workbooks? Traditional books? All of the above? There are subject matter that you are not at all competent to teach for many reasons. What will you do about those? Are there others in your home-schooling circle who can barter and exchange of expertise in those areas?
Overall, nicely written essay and well articulated!
July 8th, 2012 at 3:21 am
An addendum to the rant on gift, barter and tax:
Gift and barter are horizontal interactions outside the hierarchy. Sale & purchase is a horizontal interactions controlled within the prescribed framework of the hierarchy. The units of exchange (money) are issued through the hierarchy. They are units of value, the value being determined by the market or by authorities in the hierarchy (through price controls). In addition the hierarchy may take a cut as a sales tax.
July 8th, 2012 at 5:37 am
Jennifer,
Collapse Awareness
Disregarding the buzzy-ness of the phrase, if you believe what you expounded under the phrase, it shows a disturbing distrust of human race. We have been marching on, driven by forces, mostly Darwinian forces, for a long time. We have gone to abyss many a times in our recent history and in the past as far back as I care to go. Isolating your children from your fears is the worse you can do to your children. In a Darwinian sense, you are raising fodder for others to munch on.
School as an appropriate avenue
School is one of the many avenues a child learns to be a “functioning adult”. It is also a necessary avenue to learn the subjective judgments of crowds and more importantly learning to form a supportive crowd to pursue life. You are depriving your children that opportunity and the associated risks that enhance survival. You are likely to raise “dysfunctional adults”.
By the way, all “functioning five year olds” have many questions and your daughter is no exception.
July 8th, 2012 at 5:54 am
Wow, it looks like Jennifer’s decision to homeschool is raising some hackles.
K, “social Darwinism” is not the only way humans can live. Sometimes humans can choose different paths that might serve them better. That is what Jennifer is attempting to do. It isn’t about her distrusting the human race, it’s about her distrusting this culture and choosing a different path.
July 8th, 2012 at 7:00 am
Robin Datta
I have viewed 3 of the four ‘Bomb in the Brain’ video segments.
I think you are onto something there. I want to thank you for bringing that to my/our attention.
EVERYONE NEEDS TO SEE THE ‘Bomb in the Brain’ reference from
Robin Datta above.
There are some really smart people out there, but unfortunately they aren’t in a majority in the Political leadership, or financial groups.
The raveges of centuries of Empire and the multitude of compounding brutality have left very many of us trapped in temporary, but nevertheless destructive holding patterns of adaptation to coping with the non – delivery of unconditional love (I hear Freud sneeze in his grave)- and the infliction of its substitute, abuse violence and emotional rejection, neglect.
If you watch this material, fully, and can’t relate to it then you are either one of the very fortunate who were fully loved, nurtured and protected, or you are not quite relating the material with your own life experiences – that is your own directly, or real people you have known.
All I can write just now is,
“The Bastards”.
Robin Datta
Also, the question you have about Guy’s suggested remedy is really like how much of the patient can you afford to amputate for them to survive?. Do you amputate a hefty chunk today, now, this minute, or wait a week and be pretty certain your antibiotics will fail, and no other regenerative ‘cure’ is found, and then have to amputate below the neck?
I know the mataphore is rough, but it is not on all of us to committ mass suicide to save half of the present number of humans. The problems were there by the time we were all born.
It is not only about us either. But even if it was only about us, then we will not make it if it is BAU.
Although Guy’s reasoning entails a very high degree of human suffering, and dislocation for many from ‘comfort’, the consequences of BAU and a very sharp uncontrolled, unprepared-for collapse of the industrial economy will bring that about with much more suffering and less biosphere capacity to cope in, during that critical near term after said collapse.
If the indicators Guy and others cite are accurate then his reasoning is sound in calling for that rapid collapse, and that does not make ‘us’ responsible.
Others have pointed out though, that without adequite support Nuclear containment pools around the globe, some 400 +, I think, will go critical, and vaporise and then kiss your genome, and other species genome, goodby. Gymp city here we come.
I haven’t read Guy’s response to that probable consequence of RIC-rapid intentional collapse, but if anyone knows where it is, or Guy wishes to respond, that may help clarify.
In closing I find it difficult to understand how someone who posts the link to ‘Bomb in the Brain’, could not see, very clearly, that the culture of ‘conspicuous consumption, and unsustainable having and getting, and throwing away and replacment’ has only become acceptable because of the degree of FUBARing we have received from the violent and abusive substratum of Empire. Ergo well adjusted, happy individuals find no lasting joy and fulfillment in consicuous consumption, and need no more than adequite food, shelter and human companionship.
I do on occasions worry for a generation who when faced with the loss of a personal item run up and down the train carriage yelling: “I’ve lost my Mobile, I’ve lost my Mobile, I’ve lost it all… Oh nnnooooo…”
Jennifer is onto something too.
July 8th, 2012 at 7:09 am
We’ve home schooled for nearly 20 years. Over that time, we spent our time on reading (a lot), working around the house and garden, camping, games and music. We didn’t have a particularly laid out creed or philosophy as to why we did it.
My only goal was to offer a different experience of choice than what institutionalised monoculture education offers – an early gift of living a life on the outside of industrial society.
July 8th, 2012 at 7:25 am
K, functioning 5 year olds who are beaten at home or in school may have questions but don’t ask them if they are punished or reprimanded for asking them. Think Nuns with rulers. The child who asks too many questions in school is often considered a trouble maker. Eventually they learn to not only not ask but also not even think them.
July 8th, 2012 at 7:52 am
Librarian,
Your concept of “social Darwinism” is misguided. I said “Darwinian forces” and for your information, social coopration is a result of these forces.
July 8th, 2012 at 7:56 am
Kathy C
Don’t send your child to the schools that have Nuns armed with rulers (or shoes in some other cultures). And don’t beat up children at home either!
July 8th, 2012 at 8:00 am
It is also a necessary avenue to learn the subjective judgments of crowds and more importantly learning to form a supportive crowd to pursue life.
The subjective judgements of herds caged under the guns of a hierarchy may be easier to asses than the subjective judgements of groups that coalesce on the basis of reciprocity and voluntarism. Having the skills to make those more difficult judgements may be preferred by some.
If the indicators Guy and others cite are accurate then his reasoning is sound in calling for that rapid collapse, and that does not make ‘us’ responsible.
Condoning or promoting collapse now makes makes one complicit in the consequences, both good and bad, of such a collapse – if it occurs now. Not doing so makes one complicit in the consequences of a delayed collapse, which after progressing to much greater overshoot, will have more dire consequences. In particular, it makes one complicit in the delay.
July 8th, 2012 at 9:52 am
K – classes of 20 to 30 children per teacher don’t allow much teacher time for answering questions with or without a ruler. Questioning is kept at a minimum just by the sheer inability of one person to answer the questions of so many.
I didn’t send my kids to schools with nuns and rulers. However in many states public school teachers are still allowed to administer corporal punishment.
July 8th, 2012 at 10:06 am
Victor:
In the U.S., homeschooling requirements are established by individual states. I live in Massachusetts, where oversight of homeschooling is exercised by municipalities. From age 6 to 16, I will need to submit an annual educational plan to the superintendent of our school district, describing our scope and sequence of subjects and number of hours of instruction. I will also need to use one of the following methods of evaluation at the end of the year: standardized testing, progress report, or dated work samples. (My sense at this point in time is that I will probably opt to do progress reports.) More details about Massachusetts legal requirements are here: http://www.ahem.info/HSGuidelinesataGlance.html
I’m gearing up for preparing an educational plan next year, and gaining insight and support from other homeschooling parents in this process. After reviewing other educational plans that have been accepted in my town, I feel confident that we will fulfill the state requirements.
About resources: of course, I don’t assume that I have all the knowledge my child could ever need. Any educator or teacher worth their salt should assume the same. So accessing a variety of resources is essential, and focusing on learning how to learn is key. Resources that we intend to lean on (and currently are using) are: books, workbooks, public libraries, university libraries (we are very lucky to have many amazing libraries all around us), resources on the Internet, friends, a variety of adult mentors, other homeschooling parents, classes on specialized topics (for example, my daughter was in a farm program this spring, will participate in a music program this summer, and there are many other programs in our area both geared towards homeschoolers and towards children in general), daily on-the-spot learning from direct experience and observation, etc. I’m not sure how to summarize the resources, because our basic stance is that there are a huge number of resources for us to access. Seeking out those with expertise in particular topic areas is very important. There’s also a center for independent learners in our area called North Star which is geared toward pre-teens and teens, so when she’s that age we may consider that as an option. In terms of basic skill-building, like literacy, numeracy, critical thinking, etc.- I am competent to guide my child in learning these skills. She’s already technically “ahead” of the state standards in terms of those skills at her age level (I know this because I’ve examined the state standards in detail). We are also part of a homeschooling group, which has been very important in terms of shared activities, expanding resources and options, and gaining support and ideas for refining our educational goals.
K, I don’t think I distrust the human race. I do distrust institutional structures of industrial civilization. I also feel strongly that sending my child to school would carry a higher risk of her becoming a dysfunctional adult than homeschooling would. Yes, I agree that all functional five-year-olds have a lot of questions, and that my daughter is not unique in this way; my point in the essay was that I don’t want to suppress her innate curiosity and love of learning. I don’t answer her questions with “because I said so.” I don’t tell her “You have to stop asking questions now, because the rest of the class needs to focus on the pre-planned activity.” If there’s some reason I have to delay answering her questions, I try to let her know when we can return to them. I take her questions seriously. I listen to her. I agree with Kathy C, that there are many children who learn to stop asking questions or even thinking them.
July 8th, 2012 at 10:49 am
Jennifer,
Your despise of the institutions and industry of human race is a clear cut evidence of deep seated negativism. If you look at the statistics of well adjusted functional adults produced by institutional (private or public) schooling, your arguments are obviously unfounded. You have a choice: engage and change existing institutions better or even create new ones, don’t be afraid. The main reason for a school is very simple: not all parents are qualified to teach (beatings at home per Kathy C) and no single parent is qualified to teach all subjects. Isolation of a child from broad range of peer groups and associated behaviors is really an intellectual crime against the society and the child.
Kathy C – and some states have death penalty for minor crimes.
July 8th, 2012 at 11:46 am
K “Kathy C – and some states have death penalty for minor crimes” And that makes what point?????
July 8th, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Isolation of a child from broad range of peer groups and associated behaviors is really an intellectual crime against the society and the child.
K
This is simply untrue. The home-schooled children I have been around have every chance of a wide array of social contact, esp with other home-schooled – lots of group activities, shared experiences and opportunities for friendships.
As far as isolating a child from a broad range of peer groups, most kids happy with only a few, perhaps one or two. It’s the one who join everything and want to be President of the class who usually wind up being parasitic psychopaths directing corporations or going into politics.
I was interested in only two as I recall – orchestra/band, and being a member of the local chapter of Anarchists Anonymous (our goal in the final year of school was to burn it down…
).
July 8th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
Kathy C -
That was in response to your statement:
However in many states public school teachers are still allowed to administer corporal punishment…
I hope you see the analogy.
July 8th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Victor,
So you played in orchestra/band of two of homeschooled kids. Interesting.
By stating something “untrue” does not make it untrue. We as a nation send out ambasadors world over to the countries that are not homeschooled. Go figure!
Homeschooling is myopic.
July 8th, 2012 at 1:49 pm
K
So you played in orchestra/band of two of homeschooled kids. Interesting.
Look again. I did not say that. And I was raised in public schooling – never been home-schooled.
By stating something “untrue” does not make it untrue. We as a nation send out ambasadors world over to the countries that are not homeschooled.
Could you please tell me where this statement comes from? Certainly nowhere near my words, was it? With all respect I have no idea what you are talking about – actually there are two no-sense-to-me statements in this quote.. Actually I thought the only thing we export to other nations without home-schooling are terrorists, fear of being democratised and settled with crippling illegal sanctions, massive numbers of weapons and drones, greeting them with death and the song Bye Bye, Miss American Pie. So clearly I am missing something here.
July 8th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
K, “However in many states public school teachers are still allowed to administer corporal punishment…” was intended to indicate that one could be punished severely for asking questions in public schools and thus avoiding schools with nuns and rulers did not rule out being punished for asking questions.
I see no analogy with states having the death penalty for minor crimes unless by that you mean one should not only avoid schools with nuns and rulers but also choose to live only in states with corporal punishment not allowed. One would have to avoid huge swathes of the US for that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment
Further your statement about states (assuming you mean states in the US) having death penalties for minor crimes appears to be wrong at least in practice “Capital punishment in the United States can be administered for a wide variety of crimes ranging from drug trafficking to aggravated murder. However, in practice, it is reserved only for homicide-related crimes including aggravated murder, felony murder, and contract killing.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States
Can you please identify a state that has killed someone for a minor crime and indicate what that crime was.
I have 8 nieces and nephews, 3 step grandchildren, and 2 children of friends that were homeschooled. They have lots of friends, and those who have left home have done well in jobs and socially.
You say to Victor “By stating something “untrue” does not make it untrue. We as a nation send out ambasadors world over to the countries that are not homeschooled. Go figure!” I would note however that asserting something is true as you did does not make it true any more than asserting something is untrue makes it untrue. Victor has been around home schooled children and his assertion was made on the basis of some evidence. His observations along with mine would seem to indicate that at least some home schooled children do just fine which made your statement untrue for some students. Your assertion lacks any observations or studies to support it.
Further we send ambassadors to almost every country in the world regardless of how they school their children. We occasionally withdraw an ambassador over some issue, but I have never heard of us withdrawing one over whether they home school their children or not. Have you? If so provide proof.
Wherever you were schooled you did not get a very good handle on logical thinking.
July 8th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
In another 1992 study, Dr. Larry Shyers compared behaviors and social development test scores of two groups of seventy children ages eight to ten. One group was being educated at home while the other group attended public and private schools. He found that the home-schooled children did not lag behind children attending public or private schools in social development.
Dr. Shyers further discovered that the home-schooled children had consistently fewer behavioral problems. The study indicated that home-schooled children behave better because they tend to imitate their parents while conventionally-schooled children model themselves after their peers. Shyers states, “The results seem to show that a child’s social development depends more on adult contact and less on contact with other children as previously thought.”8
Dr. Brian Ray reviewed the results of four other studies on the socialization of homeschoolers and found:
Rakestraw, Reynolds, Schemmer, and Wartes have each studied aspects of the social activities and emotional characteristics of home-schooled children. They found that these children are actively involved in many activities outside the home with peers, different-aged children, and adults. The data from their research suggests that homeschoolers are not being socially isolated, nor are they emotionally maladjusted.9
J. Gary Knowles, University of Michigan Assistant Professor of Education, released a study done at the University of Michigan which found that teaching children at home will not make them social misfits. Knowles surveyed 53 adults who were taught at home because of ideology or geographical isolation. He found that two thirds were married, which is the norm for adults their age. None were unemployed or on welfare. He found more than three fourths felt that being taught at home had helped them to interact with people from different levels of society. He found more than 40% attended college and 15% of those had completed a graduate degree. Nearly two thirds were self-employed. He stated, “That so many of those surveyed were self-employed supports the contention that homeschooling tends to enhance a person’s self-reliance and independence.” Ninety-six percent of them said that they would want to be taught at home again. He stated, “Many mentioned a strong relationship engendered with their parents while others talked about self-directed curriculum and individualized pace that a flexible program of homeschooling permitted.”10
More on a variety of studies of the socialization of home schooled children at http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000068.asp
July 8th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Your despise of the institutions and industry of human race is a clear cut evidence of deep seated negativism.
I went to schools run by catholic nuns and at a later age, by those run by priests: I finished high school at a school named St. Bonaventure’s High School. Although a heathen, I attended catechism – dulia, hyper-dulia, latria and such: I can still recite the Christian’s creed.
It was not until a few years ago when reading a Jewish translation of the Tanach (Hebrew bible) as a goy that I came to know there are actually 613 Mitzvot, I.e. commandments. I also understood the hypocrisy of claiming to follow the “First Commandment” while worshipping a putative Mashiach (Messiah).
Likewise, I lost my esteem of Americans when as a Captain (MC) in the uS Army, stationed in Korea, I saw how they behaved when out of the milieu of America.
In “Islam” humans are designated as “ashraaf-al-makhlukaat”, the pinnacle of creation. In Hinduism and Buddhism, this plane of existence is the lowest plane on which one can “attain” “enlightenment”. Humans are the only form in which one can do so on this plane.
Isolation of a child from broad range of peer groups and associated behaviors is really an intellectual crime against the society and the child.
Society is a hierarchical structure: rats raised in a cage will come to accept the bars of the cage as the norm. In the Rat Park experiment, rats that had been addicted to morphine in cages, when placed in a more natural environment with vegetation, adequate food, water and mates rejected water containing morphine and preferred plain water. Addiction to morphine could not be induces under those conditions.
Segregation of children according to age and educational level is wholly unnatural for Homo sapiens, and was not a part of our communities for almost all of the two million years of the existence of the genus Homo.
A distinction must be remembered between immorality and criminality. In the land of the free and the home of the brave, it was once a federal crime to give any assistance to a runaway slave from the southern states attempting to escape to the north. A crime against society is not immoral; community has no explicit laws and therefore no “crimes”.
July 8th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Robin,
My post specifically addressed to Jennifer, but no matter, I will try to respond: I surmise that you recognized your “Rat Park”. However, similar “Rat Parks” exist in all other faiths you mentioned. In them, there are rulers and lashes and isolation chambers and what not that you probably are not aware of.
I referred to “intellectual crime” for which there are no laws (yet?) to dish out any punishment. So your convoluated defense for your intellectual crimes is valid, except that you will not forgive yourself…
You really should not use wars to define a dialog, and,some of the soldiers of all nations behave badly. It is Darwinian really…
July 8th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Victor,
It seems you did OK with public schooling.
You began with “This is simply untrue” in your first response to my observation regarding “intellectual crime”.
This intellectual crime arises from abridging the freedoms of a child by excercising “ownership” of being a parent.
Orchestra of two was a light-hearted comment!
July 8th, 2012 at 7:52 pm
My post specifically addressed to Jennifer
Comments placed in public view are open to public discussion.
I surmise that you recognized your “Rat Park”
The experiment was done by Bruce K. Alexander. I have not done experimental psychology.
However, similar “Rat Parks” exist in all other faiths you mentioned.
To my knowledge, it was a psyccogical experiment, not a “faith” experiment. If an equivalent experiment using humans is implied, even then I am unaware of any “faith” interested in or performing such experiments.
I referred to “intellectual crime” for which there are no laws
Crime:
1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition:
While the third and fourth meanings are listed in the dictionary, it would be ludicrous to imply them in defense of a hierarchical system. Morality is a cloak that conceals the gun of enforcement in hierarchies.
You really should not use wars to define a dialog
I am unaware of referring to any wars in any comment on this post. I did refer to my military service in Korea, but that was 23 years after the armistice.
July 8th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Kathy C -
You ramble too much. If you like to write (which is mostly cut and paste, or links, basically meaning that you read but don’t know whether you comprehended or had any original thinking) get Guy M. to invite you to write something here or get your own blog.
July 8th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
Robin –
“Rat Park” and confining a child to home calling it a schooling is fine with me.
It is surprising that you understand “collapse awareness” but not understand “intellectual crime”.
It was not your military service that mattered; it was loss of esteem of Americans (I presume you are still one) because a few, or significant few behaved badly. Obviously, you did not stand up to change the situation but elected to hide and despise like the homeschooling advocates.
July 8th, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Kathy C
Re: HSLDA
Forgive me Kathy (I know you didn’t wade in a couple of blogs back when you might have been tempted to), but I can’t let another such glaringly obvious misuse of data pass (mostly not on your part).
Firstly, you are quoting from a site advocating home schooling; hardly a possible source for bias there, then. Secondly the sample sizes quoted are far too small to draw any real conclusions; for statistical significance, sample sizes in the hundreds if not thousands would be required. But my greatest bugbear would be that commonest of statistical errors: “correlation does not imply a causal relationship”. I would fully expect homeschooled children have fewer behavioral problems (and even that they would excel academically, though this is not mentioned so maybe it is not the case). This is simply because homeschooled children on average will have more caring and more intelligent parents than publically schooled children. Unless the studies quoted made an attempt to compare like with like i.e. ensured that the children from the homeschooled and publically schooled samples came from equally loving homes and had parents of equal moral standings and equal intelligence, any conclusions drawn are worthless. It’s difficult to imagine this was the case because the task would be almost impossible. So, there is no evidence that the homeschooled children would not have been equally well adjusted if they had attended public schools.
Not that I’m against homeschooling. I hated school and now I find my own children hate school. I did homeschool my children (or at least teach them around a swimming pool!) last year for a couple of months. This was through circumstance rather than choice. I found it extremely difficult. When they started school again they were top of the class at mathematics but bottom in reading and writing, reflecting my own preferences. Now every week my children beg me to let them stop school and teach them myself again, but I know I lack the skills and patience. All I can do is tell them not to take school too seriously, tell them to try to enjoy it and tell them it’s not important whether they are top or bottom in class.
My only proviso about homeschooling would be that children like and need to play with other children, preferably unsupervised if living in an environment where safety is not an issue. (Adults are boring and should not be around when children play.) I’ve only ever met (to my knowledge) two homeschooled children. I don’t remember how old they were, but certainly of primary school age. They were extremely confident and articulate and talking to them was like talking to an adult. However, I found their lack of playfulness disconcerting. (I know, small sample size!)
July 8th, 2012 at 8:43 pm
K
Leave Kathy alone. She’s nice but gets picked on a lot.
Leave Robin alone too. He’s intelligent, appreciates all points of view and even when somebody attempted character assasination a few blogs back he refused to bite.
However, pick on Victor all you like. He believed (believes?) in the e-cat so he deserves all the stick he can get.
July 8th, 2012 at 8:43 pm
K
Getting to sound a little nasty.
Everyone who comes to this site has an interest in the issues detailed in the particular essay, and/or Guy’s other posts and particular perspective on environmental issues of the day. (Chastise me for overreaching my brief)
I also come to read the things others write, from either known experience or generalised viewpoints or opinions, even if they are a bit half arsed at times, mine included. I also like the regular citations that give a reader the opportunity to follow up on topics or research or wierd viewpoints or scientific data etc.
That may also be how others feel.
In any discussion differences and misunderstandings occur.
Telling someone, especially Kathy C, who has contributed very largly to the testing and veracity of posters claims, to leave the forum is a little beyond the pale. You have the right to ask that, for sure, but you may not learn as much from others in the dialigue if it becomes too combative, and it appears youve only come for a fight. There is no shame in contributing to a ‘group of concerned posters’, nor any need to feel threatened by the said ‘group’.
Lets cool down – if only the climate could too! Ha.
July 8th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
get Guy M. to invite you to write something here or get your own blog
Kathy C has already had two guest essays here. She is a regular feature at NBL, and Dr. McPherson has not objected to it. If it is not agreeable to someone other then Dr. McPherson, they should either address their dissatisfaction to Dr. McPherson or find sometiing more amenable elsewhere.
July 8th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
because a few, or significant few behaved badly.
It was across the board. Just about everyone. Supercilious disdain of the locals. It was understandable why they lost in Vietnam.
July 8th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
not understand “intellectual crime”
Defending a hierarchy on moral grounds is wrapping the cloak of morality once more in an attempt to further conceal the gun of enforcement. Invoking the moral connotations of “crime” does not conceal the gun any better. With regards to a hierarchy crimes are the violations of its explicit laws. “Intellectual crimes” applies to non-hierarchical systems.
July 8th, 2012 at 9:20 pm
However, pick on Victor all you like.
It is most positive influence to have Victor as a commentor here. But I am certainly glad that I am not living under Pope Victor in medieval times.
July 8th, 2012 at 11:25 pm
i think public schools are primarily institutions of social control. ‘education’ in them entails limiting and regimenting thinking. they actively discourage questioning of ‘authority’. they instill a narrow perspective designed to produce adult sheople who will be ‘productive citizens’, not ‘troublemakers’. the fact that the vast majority of public school graduates and drop outs alike exhibit a vast degree of ignorance and delusion over a wide range of topics, particularly ones of vital importance to the prospect of future generations, should be all the indictment against them anyone could ask for.
‘Segregation of children according to age and educational level is wholly unnatural for Homo sapiens, and was not a part of our communities for almost all of the two million years of the existence of the genus Homo.’
that about says it all. well done, mr. datta.
this topic got me curious as to how many children are home schooled in the usa. this link says 1.5 million as of 5 years ago:
http://www.ask.com/answers/122831/how-common-is-home-schooling-in-us
figuring there are probably roughly 45 million school age children, that comes to about 1 out of 30, or close to 3%. more than i thought. i wonder what percentage of those come from very religious homes whose parents wish to isolate their children from corrupting ‘liberal’ influences, or in other words, from families which seek to even further regiment their children more than ‘public’ schools do?
i’m glad i have no school age children. how does one teach a child that they’ve been born into a world of idiots, lunatics and liars whose civilization is on the verge of collapse, leaving behind ecological devastation, depletion, and a destabilized climate that could bring about human extinction in a few generations, assuming the idiots (heads of state) in charge of wmds don’t kill everyone first?
even if civilization wasn’t in dire straits, i still can’t see raising children in a culture of often cruel and callous dogmatism, which exerts control by instilling fear, shame, and a sense of personal inadequacy and despair. a culture that teaches many of it’s young that this mortal life is but a relatively meaningless test of faith and character, requiring self sacrifice, in pursuit of attaining eternal bliss in an imaginary ‘afterlife’. a culture of bullshit designed to subjugate, humiliate, and exploit a large majority of sheople for the short term benefit of a myopic few.
pope victor in medieval times? i have a very hard time visualizing victor as either a pope or as a medievalist. even with his faults victor is far too decent to be a pope or president. it takes an asshole to make a good ‘authority’.
July 9th, 2012 at 2:10 am
It is most positive influence to have Victor as a commentor here. But I am certainly glad that I am not living under Pope Victor in medieval times.
O Dear! Pope Victor. What a pleasing thought! Pope Victor, The Impaler…Has a nice ring to it, don’t you think?
Robin, do I detect a bit of smoke in the air? Goodness, that couldn’t possibly be you could it?…..
July 9th, 2012 at 2:31 am
pope victor in medieval times? i have a very hard time visualizing victor as either a pope or as a medievalist. even with his faults victor is far too decent to be a pope or president. it takes an asshole to make a good ‘authority’.
Why, thank you, VT! I shall cherish that thought. However, I fear you have concurrently damaged one of my fondest fantasies – living in medieval times as Pope. I have other fantasies, however….
July 9th, 2012 at 2:50 am
Yorichan you are right that I was a bit careless in picking studies to counter K – just done on the fly after a quick search. Apologies, objections noted. My real point was that K makes absolutely no attempt to provide any documentation at all. If I get sounding a bit nasty it is because on the last article by Jennifer K came on and made the strange statement that the taliban home schooled children to teach them to become suicide bombers. This was both stupid (an attempt a very loose correlation) and wrong – the Taliban use public religious schools called Madrasah to indoctrinate their kids and I found an article about parents pulling their kids out of Madrasah (probably to school them at home) because they don’t want them to become suicide bombers. I provided a link to show that the Madrasah were public not home schools but that seemed to have little effect on K http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrasah I admit that my anger over that (as if somehow Jennifer was going to train her child to become a suicide bomber) affected my writing this time.
I was public schooled in a good suburban NYS school and felt I had a good education. I cannot however remembering ever asking teachers questions or hearing other students do so. I was against home schooling myself until recently.
July 9th, 2012 at 2:54 am
K, you write too little, throwing out short lines that make it hard for anyone to have a clue what to write.
You can find my three essays that Guy published at
http://guymcpherson.com/?s=cumbee&x=0&y=0
July 9th, 2012 at 2:55 am
correction “makes it hard for anyone to have a clue as to what you mean”
July 9th, 2012 at 3:23 am
K ok just for you here is a short post
You said “Kathy C – and some states have death penalty for minor crimes.”
I asked for examples. Please list states that have death penalty for minor crimes and indicate the nature of those crimes.
July 9th, 2012 at 3:54 am
However, pick on Victor all you like. He believed (believes?) in the e-cat so he deserves all the stick he can get.
Yorchichan
Now I have been placed in the small and foolish believers of a technology no one can understand, therefore it is impossible? Or a scam? Your words are haughty and full of pride and misplaced confidence. How can you be so sure you are right on this? People who are so sure of their knowledge that they can immediately throw up a ‘NO!’ when presented with something new they can’t understand are doomed to a plate of crow.
But we shall see. This is of obvious importance to you. It has damaged my credibility in your eyes, as other statements I have made have also damaged that credibility in the eyes of others.
So to me it seems a good time to pass on a bit of an update from the Rossi side of the room. At the end of June Rossi stated that he has passed the 60-day mark of a 90-day test in which his newly modified e-cat has been running continuously – yes, you read me correctly, a continuous, non-stop run of his machine. After the 90-day test period (perhaps late July or in August?), he will issue a detailed report of the results.
The machine has now been cunningly reduced in size and re-engineered to the following specs:
* reactor core volume is lowered to less than 50cc, the old size (about the size of a D-cell battery apparently.
* It now utilises 1.5 grams of Ni in contrast to 50 on the older model.
* The old models used a direct flow of hydrogen gas to the reactor, a possibly dangerous design. Now the hydrogen is fed by a small hydrogen solid pellet.
* Refuelling still is performed every six months.
* It now has a 10kw rated output. The previous designs had a 2.5 kw rated output, 4 times less!
* It can run safely with stability with a 20-kw rated output in torture-testing.
* The old design had to be run at a low output temperature (around 100C in order to maintain stability. The latest design is safe to continuously provide water vapour at 600C (likely more if they wish to), more than enough for most any power plant in the world.
* His secret customer is contracted out with the US(?) Military for delivery of this product.
* The technology can be a rather simple and cheap replacement of the existing heat source for most any power plant that requires a heat source.
I look forward very much to the day you have to eat crow in front of me…
Or will it be my crow to eat? We shall soon know, I think.
July 9th, 2012 at 3:59 am
Off-topic, and preaching to this choir:
Signs that the End is Nigh
July 9th, 2012 at 5:31 am
Kathy C -
You ask too much, you know you can look up the states and probably are living in one.
Kathy C Defenders –
I don’t really think she need to be defended as she is capable of doing that herself, especially with her strong cut and paste skills.
Oz Man -
It is not getting nasty. It is an exchange of ideas and views. Appears that many of you have defined your sandbox here and you do not want others to play in it. Sounds like homeschooling!
Robin D -
You did not make to Captain (MC) without having a few good men under your command; and, if it was bad accross the board, did it include you?
July 9th, 2012 at 5:46 am
K, you are in fact being nasty, although I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don’t think it’s nasty because it’s normal for you.
You constantly condemn others’ motives, motives that you imagine instead of actually asking.
You make assertions and associations instead of reasoned inferences.
“Jennifer hates the human race, Kathy rambles too much and is living in a state of denial, OZ Man doesn’t want people playing in his sandbox.” Those are not exchanges of ideas and views; those are ad hominem attacks, and frankly a more accurate metaphor is that you’re coming into someone’s sandbox and messing up the place with constant personal attacks.
It is always poor communication skills to “mind-read” and pretend you know your opponents’ “real motives” when you have no evidence to support your claims, or to attempt to impose your will on people and demand that they acquiesce.
That’s called “intellectual arrogance,” the confident claim that something is true that you do not in fact know to be true.
Let me give you an analogy if I’m being unclear:
Suppose I discover that my next-door neighbor has purchased a large supply of beer for some reason. I could confidently claim that she purchased it because she is an alcoholic. If I behaved as you do, K, I could then come over to my next-door neighbor’s house and insist on her giving up her alcoholism, never suspecting that it is I who have a problem since I’m making assumptions about her motives when I have no evidence and never asked her.
If I were to discover that, in fact, she purchased a large supply of beer because she wants to give it as a birthday gift to her aged father, I would be intellectually obligated to admit that I made a bad assumption and behaved judgmentally. If instead I continued to insist that I was right and my next door neighbor’s motives were evil, I would be guilty of even more arrogance, since if I made a claim, the burden of proof is on me to prove the claim, not on my neighbor to prove she is innocent.
Do you understand, K? Free exchanges of ideas do not include constantly insulting people and accusing them of personal wickedness.
Please let me know if I have been unclear.
July 9th, 2012 at 6:15 am
K, you made the assertion, it is your responsiblity to back it up, not mine.
However in fact I did look it up and posted this on July 8th, 2012 at 1:56 pm so at this point without further documentation from you your statement stands as false.
Further your statement about states (assuming you mean states in the US) having death penalties for minor crimes appears to be wrong at least in practice “Capital punishment in the United States can be administered for a wide variety of crimes ranging from drug trafficking to aggravated murder. However, in practice, it is reserved only for homicide-related crimes including aggravated murder, felony murder, and contract killing.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States
July 9th, 2012 at 6:18 am
Librarian –
Have you noticed that only Jennifer has not responded to my initial post? And, if you reread my first post to Jennifer, I commented directly on one or two concepts she promulgated in her article. I proposed to her that she consider Darwinian forces that is shaping us. I believe I also proposed to engage and help change our systems for better rather than cope out.
Calling somebody nasty is the real nasty, or one who is drinking neighbor’s beer!
July 9th, 2012 at 6:26 am
Librarian, all K has is assertions and ad hominems. I realize I am guilty of letting K get under my skin. Letting people get under your skin gives them the opportunity to hijack the discussion.
So back to the topic, while not every person is up to home-schooling neither is every public school fit of the task. But home-schooling by a well meaning, educated parent can avoid the pitfalls of public schooling – the age segregation, large class size, lies about history, support of the state, training for obedience to the state, and other such problems that have been noted.
The good state of TX has provided us the proof that at least one state is openly declaring they don’t want kids to learn to think critically
“The Texas GOP’s declarative position against critical thinking in public schools, or any schools, for that matter, is now an official part of their political platform. It is public record in the Republican Party of Texas 2012 platform. With regard to critical thinking, the Republican Party of Texas document states: “Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.” (page 20, Republican Party of Texas, 2012).” http://truth-out.org/news/item/10144-texas-gop-declares-no-more-teaching-of-critical-thinking-skills-in-texas-public-schools
July 9th, 2012 at 7:01 am
K, I didn’t call you nasty. I said your behavior was nasty, i.e. “you were in fact being nasty.” There’s a difference.
July 9th, 2012 at 7:07 am
Victor
It was only an attempt at humour with, admittedly, a tiny element of revenge for you suggesting I get my own blog.
Ever since an excellent English teacher I once had explained to the class what “The Good Is Oft Interred With Their Bones” means (I found the writings of Shakespeare almost as difficult to understand as those of Robin), I’ve tried to remember the good things people have done rather than the bad. I remember particularly you trying to help me out by finding me a community in the UK. So I bear you absolutely no ill will whatsoever. Nor do I think your belief in the e-cat has destroyed your credibilty. We all have our strange beliefs. I look forward to the day when you are proved right and I will willingly eat humble pie on that day.
July 9th, 2012 at 7:31 am
Kathy C
Even the public schools in America don’t teach critical-thinking skills as we have often stated. The governor of the state said this because he was cow-towing to the religious segment of the state, but he was merely speaking to a broad strategic aim of nearly every public and private school in America – because that is exactly what these schools do not want our children to do, in order to keep a forceful hold on the American mind, to pound into them the propaganda around the necessity of mass consumerism and the idea that America is the Exceptional nation of all the nations and therefore has the rights to engage in its own form of imperialism and hegemony across the globe and to persuade the people that this is a romantic but serious task we have taken on a protector of democracy, freedom and liberty in the world. It also functions as an image maker for the world, primarily through the entertainment industry, making anyone who watches an American film in other parts of the world think they are seeing the real American, a country of riches, big cars, big houses, large gardens and happy smiling families whose kids get sent to the best schools in the world.
Whilst he pointed his tirade in support of a particular segment of society, he concurrently let the cat out of the bag – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabelling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behaviour modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”
THAT is what Texas has REALLY done – taken the mask off the government’s true aim of public schooling. Don’t teach children the skills to question their values or the greatness of America and the American way of life or its impact upon the people and governments of the world.
July 9th, 2012 at 7:51 am
Victor – yes I agree
July 9th, 2012 at 7:54 am
It was only an attempt at humour with, admittedly, a tiny element of revenge for you suggesting I get my own blog.
Admittedly, when you look at the statement from a humorous view, you can appreciate your kind of wit. It’s only paranoid pessimists like myself who will jump to ill-gotten conclusions.
I thought that bit about your own blog was rather witty, didn’t you?….
“The Good Is Oft Interred With Their Bones” means (I found the writings of Shakespeare almost as difficult to understand as those of Robin)
I have that very same problem!….
Peace be with you, brother…
July 9th, 2012 at 7:57 am
Victor – yes I agree
A very short answer….ermmm….methinks I expounded on the self-evident…
July 9th, 2012 at 8:13 am
Librarian -
Yes you did by resonating the nastiness expressed by somebody else.
It is well known that I do not think homeschooling is appropriate in our complex society. It is really creating “Rat Park” at home and most parents are not competent at teaching the necessary subjects and many are barely competent parents (beatings at home per Kathy C).
Many of our school systems – especially inner city and poor areas – are inadequate. We need to work to change that and also to use resources more effectively.
At the same time, schools (and colleges) are under pressure to impart skills to make a living. Our highly automated society has no need for critical thinking as it is already engineered in the algos that run the automata. To a great extent, critical thinking is considered ability to pontificate mindlessly. Just listen to some of the talking heads.
May be the homeschoolers should focus on imparting critical thinking skills while letting schools do the basic. And, focus on improving schools rather than abandoning them as more than 90% of us do not have the luxury of time and resources to homeschool.
July 9th, 2012 at 8:34 am
Kathy C –
When you feel somebody is getting under your skin, it is an indication that you are not thinking critically. You are conflicted and not attending to the subject or situation.
July 9th, 2012 at 9:02 am
K, that’s good, actually. This time you’re actually expressing why you think homeschooling is a bad idea, and backing yourself up with logical arguments to back your claim, rather than making personal remarks about the people on this website and their supposed “true motives.”
Now that you’re being fair, I’ll answer you fairly.
You have a point. Homeschooling isn’t a good option for everyone, since most people don’t have the time or resources to homeschool.
Jennifer, however, DOES have the time and resources, apparently, which is why she chose to homeschool. Yet you claim that Jennifer would do a bad job of it.
Furthermore, how exactly do you think the schools should be reformed? It’s not the teachers who make the decisions that run the schools; it’s the superintendents and school boards. How do you plan to appeal to them to change their minds? How do you plan to appeal to the VOTERS, also, who think that school being about imparting skills instead of thinking is a pretty good idea?
If you think Jennifer’s choice is the wrong one, how do you plan to “bell the cat,” as it were? You think Jennifer should change the schools instead of homeschooling? How do you propose Jennifer should do that?
July 9th, 2012 at 9:27 am
You did not make to Captain (MC) without having a few good men under your command; and, if it was bad accross the board, did it include you?
In the Medical Corps on active duty one is initially a Captain (no Second Lieutenant and First Lieutenant ranks preceding). One does not have to have anyone under one’s command. And one does not have to be an American citizen – at that time I wasn’t.
July 9th, 2012 at 9:48 am
Victor “A very short answer….ermmm….methinks I expounded on the self-evident…”
I was attempting a short answer after been criticized by K for my long answers
July 9th, 2012 at 9:51 am
K do tell is telling Victor that asserting something is untrue does not make it untrue while doing nothing but asserting things yourself an example of critical logical thinking? Asserting something is true does not make it true and all you have done is assert assert assert. I am over being angry and just feeling very sorry for you…..
July 9th, 2012 at 9:53 am
Appears that many of you have defined your sandbox here and you do not want others to play in it
A pretty good example of hierarchical attitudes. The NBL community has evolved to be a community: based on implicit norms accepted through mutual understanding. Newcomers who stray beyond those norms often are from hierarchical society, with inadequate experience with community structure and function. They are soon informed of any aberrancy. Dr. McPherson being an anarchist, allowed the formation of community by not imposing a hierarchical structure. As a result most of the moderating is done for him. Also as a result, it is not apparent to some newcomers that it is actually Dr. Mcpherson’s sandbox.
July 9th, 2012 at 9:54 am
Are we there yet?
July 9th, 2012 at 10:00 am
It all boils down to specialization vs. generalization. Professional teachers are trained in the art of teaching, whereas well-meaning parents are (for the most part) not. Public schools offer the chance to interact with peers, problems, ideas, etc., in addition to what home life (and hanging out with you, while you entertain and/or run errands) offers — exposing children to additional experiences, which may come in handy down the line. Sheltering them can have the undesired consequence of leaving them under-prepared.
We’re no longer living in tribal times. Seven billion people on the planet necessitate that members of society must specialize whenever practical. I understand that many readers of this blog advocate a giant die-off of our species, but that isn’t likely to happen anytime soon. To really prepare your children (which you had despite knowing that the world is coming to an end), you eventually have to let go and trust that their foundations are solid enough to adapt.
Nuns with rulers, etc., are clearly very minor obstacles in the grand scheme. Don’t use them as an excuse to smother your children. Otherwise, you’re reacting in a way not dissimilar from that of the sheeple for whom you have so much pity/disdain, i.e., those who fear terrists and Hell.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:00 am
By that I mean can we just…you know…be cool, and groovy, and love each other a bit more.
People need to love each oyher more.
People need to love each other more.
People need to love each other more……
100x…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRsl2hAPhY&feature=related
Listen to your Heart, for it will always be in the place before all conflict and differentiation and desire, keeping the gift of love.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:10 am
Have you noticed that only Jennifer has not responded to my initial post?
That is another aspect of community that those in the hierarchal mode do not get: horizontal interactions are not constrained by vertical limitations. Chopping each other’s wood and carrying each other’s water is another norm.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:25 am
All
The humour is the best bits!!
Groovy is a pretty groovy word, rather onamatapaeic sounding, even tuatelogical, ha!
But seriously,
Publicly Schooled
How can you be so sure the big slide will not happen any time soon?
See Dr Albert A Bartlett teaching about the absurdity of infinite growth in a finite planet;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
The end is Nigh?
Its always been nigh.. but in these times it is a really really REALLY BIG END & NIGH.
For the record, if you inspect a whole lot of comments, I think no one is advocating Die off, or more correctly masses of people dying of starvation and disease, in a population overshoot scenario, it will happen.
See what too many of anything that eats and shits can mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTIlOlVT3LI
Heroes everywhere!
No one wants to die, but it’s the one certainty in life. We can love and laugh and throw a few twigs about in the meanwhile.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:40 am
I was attempting a short answer after been criticized by K for my long answers
Kathy C
Walking on thin ice I understand, but yet here goes – Is that a woman thing? My wife always responds to me in a similar manner when I have been talking too much about things she feels are blatantly obvious. It seems to be her way of saying, “Shut the fuck up. You’re boring me into intolerable pain!” (though somehow she always manages to put it so much more civilly, an art I seem to be totally lacking in)…
July 9th, 2012 at 10:43 am
Public schools offer the chance to interact with peers, problems, ideas, etc.
Indeed they do – under the gun of the hierarchy. To be distinguished from building and sustaining community.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:48 am
All
You guys are actually a great bunch of people. I once played Bloons popping for an hour and then asked a co player on the other side of the internet what she did, and she siad she wes a wheelchair bound Quadruplaegic and Bloon popping kept her sane in some moments.
The thing about throwing the twigs about is actually a clever manoeuver, but bloons would suffice. I envisage more joy though, with the twigs, and few, if any, market researcher or money/lesure time scammer will have thought to paymeter throwing a twig around, so my saying about the best things in life are free it true.
No need to be so sceptical of groups Robin Data, even if they have power and stupidity connotations. Love and be free and then you will not be constrained by them. None of us get forced with a popper to the head to post comments. Its all free. We are all mind controlled untill we are not any more, big deal. “Engage thrusters and on to warp speed. Mr Zulu” ” Aye Aye Captin”.
Lets just get it all on!
Hey let’s homeshool … no that’s too disespetful to Jennifer.
Seroiusly, we are the mice, and the pig pen may be a good metaphore for schooling that has failed to bring us out of surf mentality and wage slavery.
We are the mice now, even though I hate to admitt it!
I’ve worked really hard on self improvement and all I’ve got to show is being a mouse.
Two rocks work just as well as a twig.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:57 am
Robin –
But you are now an American, so do something to change what you did not like 23 years ago in the service.
As you say that it is Guy M.’s sandbox and he is welcome to do whatever he wants. I believe he is not a cult leader and I think you are looking to him as a cult leader. However, you seem to enjoy self-appointed role of community enforcer. May be something like Orwellian thought control? Is it not similar to my country right or wrong stuff?
July 9th, 2012 at 10:58 am
Librarian –
I am not passing judgment on Jennifer’s ability to homeschool. I am saying that homeschooling is depriving the reality of existence to our children, and, actually making them more vulnerable in their adult life.
I have always been fair as much as humanely possible. I believe Jennifer has already put a bell on the cat. As I did previously, I wish her the best, but, it is her daughter and other children will judge whether she did a good thing or bad for their lives. I have already expressed to her what I think.
July 9th, 2012 at 11:20 am
Publicly Schooled -
On the mark! Thanks!
All -
We are not taking over your sandbox but making it bigger. Enjoy!
July 9th, 2012 at 11:28 am
No Victor, it was just a joke – not to do with you at all HONEST, entirely about K’s objection to my long answers. Sorry to use you to get at K
July 9th, 2012 at 11:41 am
I was very fortunate to attend good schools. I still think I would have been fine if I had never gone to a single school. I love to learn, and teach myself whatever I want.
I tried home-schooling, but mostly wanted to send my four girls to a small private school until we could not afford it any more. Then we moved, because we wanted better schools than the public ones there. Not everyone can do this, and it meant moving to a small city and there were a lot of things we hated to leave, like our small farm, garden, food cellar, good water, clean air
What do we mean by “good” and “bad” schools? This discussion would be more productive if all of us were in agreement on a definition. Are we thinking of the same thing when we say “public school?”
K sounds like a person educated by a large institution – more concerned with the facts than with people and how they feel.
July 9th, 2012 at 11:42 am
Meanwhile back in the real world the Libor scandal is unfolding
“Libor: The Crime of the Century
By Robert Scheer
July 07, 2012 “Information Clearing House” — Forget Bernie Madoff and Enron’s Ken Lay—they were mere amateurs in financial crime. The current Libor interest rate scandal, involving hundreds of trillions in international derivatives trade, shows how the really big boys play. And these guys will most likely not do the time because their kind rewrites the law before committing the crime.”
rest at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31785.htm
The unraveling that Guy hopes for in 2012 may be kicking into higher gear. After the big collapse, everyone will be home schooling and this discussion will be irrelevant. This point in time is not like any other point in time. Anyone who has kids would be well advised to start a curriculum of durable living, whether after public school or as a home schooler. Columbus sailed the ocean blue – and ravaged the local native population which I never learned in public school but neither bits of information will matter. Knowing a weed from a food plant will. Knowing which weeds you can eat will. Knowing how to dress a chicken or deer will matter. So teach your children well. And teach them not to trust any word out of the mouth of the supporters of Empire. “Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the former top commander of international forces in Afghanistan, said this week that the United States should bring back the draft if it ever goes to war again.”
]
Music video featuring Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young’s infamous song, “Teach Your Children”. Depicts the Iraqi War through the eyes of Iraqi Children http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHtZJC_4YmE [but stop it at 2:44 if you no longer think Obama is hope and change
July 9th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Rita –
My large institutions were the libraries at three private universities earning three masters degrees in three different fields. Never cared for a doctorate as it would have locked me up in a situation for three to five years. This was more fun, and I had direct one on one relationships with many profs as I had to prepare myself on my own before embarking on grad level classes. And, I rarely attended any classes in my first undergrad studies.
It is self-schooling and you do not need any homeschooling for that, all you need is a fire in the belly.
July 9th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Kathy C –
You wrote: No Victor, it was just a joke – not to do with you at all HONEST, entirely about K’s objection to my long answers. Sorry to use you to get at K
Another critical thinking failure?
July 9th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
K – I am more concerned that my children have a warm glow in the heart (love for people and all sentient beings) than a fire in the belly, and many public schools neglect the hearts of our children.
What you call critical thinking sounds to me like cutting people to shreds for fun.
Public school education seems designed to turn out workers for the cubicles. In fact, being in a classroom felt the same to me. I realize everyone must learn how to earn a living, and many home-schooled and un-schooled people have gone on to college if they wanted. And many have dropped out to do great things.
So K – are you a troll?
July 9th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
K “Another critical thinking failure?” Absolutely not, I was fully intending to use it to criticize you, I am capable of very very critical thinking.
July 9th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Kathy C -
Criticize, I bet, while critically thinking at the same time!
July 9th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Rita –
Fire in the belly is an expression for people who are self-motivated to search and critically think for themselves. I thought that was the holy grail all the homeschoolers are searching for.
Why is it that none of you respond to the comment by Publicly Schooled. I think he/she did a fantastic job in surmising many of the points I have made.
By the way, where do homeschoolers go for the resources – public libraries? If you do, you will find many public school students there reading, researching and doing all types of critical thinking and evaluation alone and in groups.
July 9th, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Fair enough, K. Why haven’t any of us responded to Publicly Schooled, you ask?
Very well, allow me to be the first.
Publicly Schooled raises a good point about the fact that we no longer live in tribes, but she still is not presenting Jennifer’s argument correctly before she attacks it.
Jennifer has no desire to “smother her children” and neither is anybody on this blog “advocating” for a die off. What Guy McPherson et al. believe, and you’re free to disagree, is that the die off will occur regardless of what we do because we are past a point of no return.
In other words, if I’m being clear enough, the word “advocate” means to be in favor of something or to lend your support to something. What is actually happening on this blog is that the commenters and McPherson himself are describing what they think “is going to happen regardless.” That is not the same thing as advocating something. Now, they do sometimes argue that we should do something to make the die-off happen FASTER, and THAT they advocate for, but that still rests on the assumption that they think it’ll happen anyway sooner or later.
Publicly Schooled’s comment wasn’t insightful. It would be insightful if she was actually attacking what Jennifer actually thought. Instead she is either attacking Jennifer’s argument in its weakest form, or just plain attacking a straw man to score points, depending on whether or not Publicly Schooled sincerely believes she understands Jennifer’s argument correctly.
Criticism is welcome IF IT IS REASONABLE. My argument is that Publicly Schooled’s criticism is not reasonable since she is intellectually arrogant, claiming something to be true about what Jennifer “really thinks” and why Jennifer “really” does the things she does that Publicly Schooled does not, in fact, know to be true.
Compare Socrates, for example. Before Socrates gently made his opponents look like fools, he repeatedly asked clarifying questions so he understood what exactly they thought and knew. He did this FIRST. THEN he pointed out all the errors in their reasoning.
Publicly Schooled, and to a lesser extent you, K, omits the first step. You always attack your version of what your opponents think and believe, without asking them first.
That is why we are objecting to you.
Have I made myself understood more clearly, sir?
July 9th, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Librarian -
May be you need to reread Publicly Schooled’ comment and may want to revise what you wrote. Here is what Publicly Schooled stated:
=====
It all boils down to specialization vs. generalization. Professional teachers are trained in the art of teaching, whereas well-meaning parents are (for the most part) not. Public schools offer the chance to interact with peers, problems, ideas, etc., in addition to what home life (and hanging out with you, while you entertain and/or run errands) offers — exposing children to additional experiences, which may come in handy down the line. Sheltering them can have the undesired consequence of leaving them under-prepared.
We’re no longer living in tribal times. Seven billion people on the planet necessitate that members of society must specialize whenever practical. I understand that many readers of this blog advocate a giant die-off of our species, but that isn’t likely to happen anytime soon. To really prepare your children (which you had despite knowing that the world is coming to an end), you eventually have to let go and trust that their foundations are solid enough to adapt.
Nuns with rulers, etc., are clearly very minor obstacles in the grand scheme. Don’t use them as an excuse to smother your children. Otherwise, you’re reacting in a way not dissimilar from that of the sheeple for whom you have so much pity/disdain, i.e., those who fear terrists and Hell.
====
Let me start to you out: nowhere did he mentioned Jennifer or Guy M.’s article We Are Done.
July 9th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Thank you, I’ve re-read the post.
I don’t think I’ll revise what I wrote. I didn’t mention We Are Done either, my comments were directed at the following lines:
“I understand that many readers of this blog advocate a giant die-off of our species, but that isn’t likely to happen anytime soon.”
This is the first thing I wanted to correct; the readers of this blog do not “advocate” a die-off.
Second:
“Nuns with rulers, etc., are clearly very minor obstacles in the grand scheme. Don’t use them as an excuse to smother your children. Otherwise, you’re reacting in a way not dissimilar from that of the sheeple for whom you have so much pity/disdain, i.e., those who fear terrists and Hell.”
This comment seems to be directed at Jennifer’s decision to keep her kids out of school. This is why I said Publicly Schooled was attacking a straw man; Jennifer has no desire to “smother your children,” to qutoe Publicly Schooled. Then, Publicly Schooled draws another conclusion about Jennifer, that Jennifer is a hypocrite no different from the sheeple, but PS’s conclusion is based on a thought Jennifer doesn’t really hold.
That was the second thing I wanted to correct.
July 9th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Librarian,
I’m starting to think you’re just a troll/butt-in-ski. Given that you responded to some of my earlier comments, I’m going to assume that you know that I know that Jennifer has just one child. So, my use of the word “children” would indicate that I’m, indeed, not addressing Jennifer here. And your disambiguation of my usage of “advocating” is nit-picking, at best, since you obviously understand its gist (context is key).
My comments aren’t personal. I’m just trying to offer a viewpoint that stands in contrast with what could be construed as advocacy for home schooling — though that isn’t necessarily the original article’s intent, some later comments certainly steered the discussion that direction.
There’s a great tendency of frequent contributors to this site to agree with one another, seemingly for community’s sake. It can come off as a cult mentality. It’s OK to have different takes on issues, and not be compelled to “come to the aid” of another regular contributor, who happens to be losing a sub-debate (or has left the debate altogether). And denigrating dissent with subjective labels like “hierarchical” and non-”anarchist” smells a bit desperate.
I’m a man, by the way. Not that it matters much.
July 9th, 2012 at 3:00 pm
I haven’t commented yet on this essay – primarily because I have no school age children and never raised any. (Well, that and the fact that our internet has been down for the last four days.) So, I don’t really feel qualified to say much. But, you can’t keep me quiet for too long.
My mother was a school teacher for almost 50 years. For about a decade she taught at a school in north central Nebraska which averaged less than 10 students. That’s how many there were in the entire school, first through 12th grades. My mother taught all of them, in all grades, in the same room, at the same time. I’m not describing some long ago situation. That school is still in operation with approximately the same number of children.
There have been comments above that somehow public schools are better equipped than home schools because they have more teachers who are trained in the various subjects. While I certainly think my mom was completely qualified to teach those kids, other than her degree in education, I can’t really see how that particular public school was any better or different than a home schooled child being taught one-on-one by their well-educated parent. The point is, blanket statements are rarely accurate. There are always exceptions to every rule.
July 9th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
This is the best I can do in the way of a comment about education—in this case “how to think” by Chris Hedges from today:
“What must I do to win salvation?” Dimitri asks Starov in “The Brothers Karamazov,” to which Starov answers: “Above all else, never lie to yourself.”
And here is the dilemma we face as a civilization. We march collectively toward self-annihilation. Corporate capitalism, if left unchecked, will kill us. Yet we refuse, because we cannot think and no longer listen to those who do think, to see what is about to happen to us. We have created entertaining mechanisms to obscure and silence the harsh truths, from climate change to the collapse of globalization to our enslavement to corporate power, that will mean our self-destruction. If we can do nothing else we must, even as individuals, nurture the private dialogue and the solitude that make thought possible. It is better to be an outcast, a stranger in one’s own country, than an outcast from one’s self. It is better to see what is about to befall us and to resist than to retreat into the fantasies embraced by a nation of the blind.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/how_to_think_20120709/
Michael Irving
July 9th, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Publicly Schooled,
There’s a great tendency of frequent contributors to this site to agree with one another, seemingly for community’s sake. It can come off as a cult mentality. It’s OK to have different takes on issues, and not be compelled to “come to the aid” of another regular contributor, who happens to be losing a sub-debate (or has left the debate altogether). And denigrating dissent with subjective labels like “hierarchical” and non-”anarchist” smells a bit desperate.
It’s true that many frequent contributors here agree. I really think that’s part of the attraction we have to this site. It’s nice to encounter something other than ridicule and disdain for a change.
That being said, if you read closely, you’ll find that there is frequent dissent among regular contributors, and even with Dr. McPherson. Perhaps it’s not evident because when we discuss things, we try to respect one another and stick to the substance of the issues. Most do our best to support what we say with facts. In short, we debate the issues, not the character of the commenter.
Maybe we do tend to “police” things a bit much, particularly when someone new joins the discussion and isn’t yet aware that we have some unwritten “suggestions” of conduct here. In my opinion, this has led to one of the better sites on the internet with respect to intelligent discussion. The comments section on many other sites quickly devolves into a mud slinging contest. Personally, I don’t have time nor desire to be bothered with such nonsense. That’s why I come here.
I would encourage anyone and everyone who has something to say, please to do so. We may not agree, and we may debate – vigorously – but most will do so in a way that doesn’t make you feel like crap when you read the responses.
To be clear, I’m speaking on my own self-anointed authority. So take what I say with a grain of salt. I have no more say so here than any of the other commenters. As Robin pointed out, it’s Guy’s sandbox.
July 9th, 2012 at 3:46 pm
Off-topic:
Got a smattering of rain today for the first time in five weeks!! Yea! Not nearly enough to end the drought, but so very refreshing!
July 9th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Publicly Schooled, I did not criticize you as hierarchical. That was Robin Datta. If you’re going to call me a troll, call me a troll based on something I actually said.
I’m going to be brief this time: first, you do not get to operate on a different standard than you apply to other people. You don’t get to come onto this website, try to read other people’s minds without ever asking clarifying questions, and then become outraged when you think we misunderstood you.
Second, please read my cans of beers analogy above that I explained to K. If you make a factual error and you didn’t perceive something correctly, you have to listen when other people tell you that you have, and then apologize. Say, “Okay, I was wrong, I misunderstood what this person was saying. What I think you meant was this, this, and this. Is that correct? If so, I disagree with you because of a), b), c)…”
July 9th, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Tell you what, I’ll go first as a show of good faith:
I apologize, Publicly Schooled. I shouldn’t have criticized you for your use of the word “advocate.” That was petty of me. I will endeavor not to make the same nit-picking mistake in the future.
July 9th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
The Real Dr House – I appreciate your well thought out and carefully worded summation and I agree that the respect we give each other makes this one of the few blog comment sections worth reading.
About the rain: we got three inches over here. I was hoping you would get more. Hopefully more is coming. Mulch, mulch, mulch. Also, allow creeping weeds as ground cover. Every area I did not weed is doing better.
July 9th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
i can’t believe how much has been posted here since my last post less than 24 horas ago.
‘How can you be so sure you are right on this?’
i like to do jigsaw puzzles on occasion. i’ve been doing them for years, and one phenomenon never changes. after extensive and repeated searches, i conclude a particular piece must be missing, only to have it turn up later, somehow overlooked.
i just bring this up as a very easy example of how prone to error i, and i’m quite sure all humans are. sometimes we’re dead wrong about trivial matters of little consequence, sometimes wrong about matters of mortal significance. i am, at any rate.
of course this leads to the folly of dogmatism. i think dogmatism is frequently linked to strong emotions like indignation, fear, or a need to deny some aspect of perceived surreality. at least such is the case with myself. keeping in mind human fallability (sic) is fairly easy to do in the absence of strong emotional influence. it serves well as a check on dogmatic expression.
btw, victor, i have a cyber man-hug for u. love your wit and charm.
i was just thinking that among some of the dogmatic doomers here, i’m an optimist (lol). there must be few other groups where i could make such a statement. perhaps i’m a dogmatic optimist? however, except for expecting events to unfold on a different and less certain timetable, and also allowing for possibility that i could be wrong about the extreme peril i think our species has placed itself in, and that extinction isn’t certain due to the current confluence of developing crises, i’m very pessimistic i think.
yorchichan, u shouldn’t have brought up the e-cat. u got victor going again.
‘Our highly automated society has no need for critical thinking…’
k, i must now join the chorus of criticism directed your way here. i nominate this statement as a candidate for the stupidest thing ever written on nbl. i think u’re also completely missing the assertion repeatedly being made here that public schooling by design is dogmatic, restrictive, and anethema to the development of critical thinking. dogmatic thinkers are much easier to control than free thinkers. public schools are primarily institutions of social engineering and control, and secondarily involved in imparting limited knowledge. their primary concern, going back to the prussian origins of modern public schooling in ‘america’ back in the 19th century, has to do with, as i stated previously, churning out ‘productive citizens’ without much inclination to challenge established ‘authority’.
i’m wasting my time on u, k. as has been observed and written previously, one can lead a sherson (domesticated/indoctrinated person) to knowledge, but u can’t make the sherson understand or accept it as true or reasonable. it’s simply the nature of surreality. we’re flawed beings in a flawed world. but hey, at least jesus loves us! the poor bastard had to die a poor miserable agonizing gruesome way just so all us unworthy ‘sinners’ might be forgiven by a loving omnipotent great male god who apparently has a need for bloodshed in order to forgive. this story is perfectly reasonable and believable, don’t u think? oh, that’s right, u see no need for critical thought in our modern automated society. just trust the ‘authorities’ and technology to do all our thinking for us! (end of rant)
July 9th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
No need to be so sceptical of groups Robin Data, even if they have power
Such groups are the prevailing force. They derive their power from the willingness to resort to the use of force made possible by justifying it to themselves. I bow to that force but do not identify with it.
But you are now an American, so do something to change what you did not like 23 years ago in the service.
23 was the number of years after the Korean armistice that I served in Korea. As I stated, I lost my esteem. Most probably it will not be restored by alterations to likes and dislikes. Attempts to change the attitudes that sustain Empire are being made by many. I try in to point out hierarchical attitudes: the authoritarian willingness to resort to force, or approve of its use by others on one’s behalf.
However, you seem to enjoy self-appointed role of community enforcer.
It is not easy to break out of the authoritarian mind-set, which pigeonholes others into hierarchical roles – even to the point of ascribing a pretension to a role of “enforcer”.
So K – are you a troll?
Probably not. But quite possibly so heavily vested in the system that any alternate is a provocation.
subjective labels like “hierarchical” and non-”anarchist”
The objectivity is obscured in the prevalent paradigm. Declining to vest in others (e.g. the state) the authority to initiate force on one’s behalf is paradigm-shattering, and can not only be seen objectively by others, but is often is perceived as threatening: it can strip away long-held protective justifications, provoking some rather violent responses.
July 9th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Actually the weather and climate in your region could not be more on topic!
Here in the Blue Mountains its been a very mild Winter.
Last night a Wallaby, hoppong furry marsupial, ate my entire 1m squared experimental portable no-dig-garden plot. This included leeks, silverbeet, and some lavender.
For those who would like to remember what a wallaby eating looks like here is a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4E77jkWpeo
The Australian Koala is now endangered, and if not officially the Tasmanian Devil is under very extreme pressure from ‘Facial Tumour Disease’-FTD. FTD is still a mystery, except it is a virus based disease, and is spread by direct contact with food carcasses previously eaten and dominance fighting that often results in some blood around the snout. Some researchers have suggested the role of toxic chemicals in the environment playing a role with their immune systems etc. Endocrine inhibbitors and the like.
Some time very soon there will be no more Koals, Lowland Gorillas, or any number of those 200 species per day going, going gone, Guy and others inform the public of. We notice the big ones, (hopefully) when they go.
People say concerning species loss; species have always gone extinct, that is natural.
That is only part of the truth.
Rapid environmental change, and potent survival selectors, like a toxic chemical in a waterway, produce rapid selection depletion of a population. Rapid habitat depletion works generally on the whole population, and if that population is the surviving remains of a whole species, then it’s curtains. Slower changes in the environment, or less lethal selective interlocutors to a habitat, produce adaptations that survivors pass on. That is called speciation, and that is how we got here, and everthing else living got here.
However, the life is still the same life that was there at the beginning-The beginning of Life on Earth-LOE.
A great little book titled ‘Life comes from Life’ is an attempt to refute the overreching fantastical claims of scientism, by the now ‘somewhere else’ spiritual leader of the Hare Krishna Movement, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
I am not a devotee of this movement, but it does have a lot of down the line Hinduism in it, and if you take the time to read this little book it becomes obvious that this husk we call the Phenotype is the mechanism to simply survive. Following on, the life that it ‘carries’ or associates with is no different in kind when you compare any living thing.
As my travel buddy Thyse from The Netherlands use to exclaim when we would talk the big questions 20 years ago;
“That’s fucking spiritual man!”
He was so right.
If ‘we’ let the Koala and all the others go we are letting our own essence,( ‘the’ life essence, its not ours remember) reduce its chances of continuation of survival, and any species can evolve to become something very differnt from an earlier form. Dolphins have strategically evolved to be living back in the oceans, but its ancestors were land lubbers, and then all our earlier ancestors were sea-bees before that – and we were once unicellula.
Ah, how things have changed.
It’s not about us, its about the Promethian fire we carry. I don’t give a rats arse what Mythology Promethius comes from, nor how his life cycle is depicted, clay.. or stealing fire. He’s the dude who flipped the switch, so he carries the can.
That means we carry the can.
The Koalas in very many millions of Japanees and Korean tourists travel picture albums will have to be enough for the future, very unfortunately.
How else will it all stop than for the collapse of the Industrial economy?
Anyone got an improved prognosis?
Having studied some Chineese medicine in my earlies days I recall a great pearl of wizdom that applies here:
Mild illnesses require mild remedies. Extreme illnesses require extreme remedies.
The planet is regulating us as it must.
That tail may come back into use in a few generations perhaps.
Here is a link on the book previously mentioned.
http://ebookbrowse.com/life-comes-from-life-pdf-d11600591
We are the cartakers of the fire.
Focus on the Phytoplankton.
As well as the love, for love is the fire by another name.
July 9th, 2012 at 8:25 pm
i nominate this statement as a candidate for the stupidest thing ever written on nbl.
Would heartily second it if it were referring to someone different. (See below).
i’m wasting my time on u, k.
I admire your perspicacity, vt. A refreshingly different take from Kathy C. As the old saying goes, if you jump into the wallow to wrestle a pig, the pig will enjoy it, but you will end up covered with s**t. An analogous situation obtains of humans.
July 9th, 2012 at 10:29 pm
So in response to the original Essay.. Thanks for your second instalment Jen and I think that the world right now is not doing too well from the decisions and ‘doing things the same’ as our culture and civilization slowly collapses.
I think ignoring that and continuing on the BAU way of bringing up the next generation of humans is both short sighted and irresponsible. By choosing to home school in your situation, in this time and place, seems to me to be very much a natural response to the current conflagration of crises humanity is facing.
When one considers that there needs to be a diversity of approaches to bringing up humans it seems to me there will always be a place for a significant number of approaches to that task. Home Schooling is one of them.
I am trying to work out why as a culture we would deem that a bad thing? I do think continuing doing the same thing and expecting different results is in fact pretty crazy.
I don’t think we need MORE OF THE SAME……. If anything we need a complete and substantial change.
I do think thinking about alternatives to the conventional approach matters merely because one cannot change the status quo without changing how we think and feel about society. Surely that starts with the child as part of the village as part of the society.
Keep doing what you are doing…. i like reading your writing and wish to at this point applaud you on your very obviously important decision. You are helping shape the future.
July 10th, 2012 at 2:41 am
Robin, you are saying I am now covered in shit?
July 10th, 2012 at 2:46 am
Hey guys, there is a world out there, which could do with our help.
Remember the twig and the two rocks?
They really do work.
July 10th, 2012 at 2:53 am
Kathy C
I would like to know a little about your background, because I find your views and citations worth considdering. I don’t mean very personal, just …well I suppose more info. Of course its not necessary, and a bit off topic, but the same goes for other contributors. It is not for the sake of pidgeo holing either.
‘Tracker of Truth’ seems to have taken up with the Aliens, or spirit hoodoos, somewhere in Sebasterpole. Damn I thought he was pretty well onto the trail, but I guess it happens to some. Anyone know what flipped him to go for the Star Trek option?
July 10th, 2012 at 6:02 am
Oz man part of my background is included in my essay that Guy posted
Lessons on living
http://guymcpherson.com/2011/01/lessons-on-living/
I am a former very serious Christian, I was even going to become a deaconess in the Lutheran church. Got married young and dropped out of college however. Divorced years later. Married to the best man in the world now. I rejected religion after years and years of serious study because I wanted so much for there to be a god who was good, and it became clear that a god who was all powerful and sometimes acted in the affairs of men could not be good based on the facts on the ground.
Volunteered all my life, starting as a teen in nursing homes. Also in homes for the mentally challenged (or whatever is the right term now). Volunteered with Habitat for Humanity for years. Worked for 3 years in the mountains of TN for a project to help locals until the Klan ran us out with burning crosses for the sin of bringing church work groups that included blacks into their all white county. Volunteered in several homeless shelters for some years. Volunteered with Hospice for 10 years. Finally spent 3 mos in Haiti working in Mother Theresa’s Home for Children, and it was in Haiti that I finally gave up on trying to find a good god. Learned accounting along the way without formal training and used those skills to make money. Two kids, two grandkids (in other states, not close). Live rural, garden, chickens (with chicks right now 150) Done some preps for collapse, hand pump well etc, but no longer think Alabama is survivable post collapse and not willing to move. Old enough at 64 to not mind dying a little early. Not afraid of being dead which I believe is no different than the non-existence before I was born, but know too much about the many unpleasant ways of dying to look forward to the dying that has to happen before the sweet peace of death.
Don’t believe in anything extra normal. I do think some people experience more of that natural world by being more aware or having better senses, just like dogs hear sounds we can’t hear but we see colors they can’t see. But I think the natural world is all their is, and we have little in the way of real choices we can make because we are animals equipped with evolutionary selected programs and nothing more except a too big brain. I think hunter-gatherer is the best way for humans to live, because it is that life that we were programmed for and therefore it would feel more right, just like a wild animal feels right in its natural environs and feels wrong in a cage.
Anything else? You?
July 10th, 2012 at 6:05 am
PS Oz man – I think it possible there are aliens, perhaps even now on the planet. Agnostic about it but for fun I query youtube for alien clips…
July 10th, 2012 at 10:01 am
Kathy C says:
I think hunter-gatherer is the best way for humans to live, because it is that life that we were programmed for and therefore it would feel more right, just like a wild animal feels right in its natural environs and feels wrong in a cage.
==
We often don’t do things we’d rather,
Constrained by righteousness blather;
But soon we will forage
From other folks’ storage,
Defaulting to hunt and to gather.
July 10th, 2012 at 11:53 am
the virgin terry –
Your post is a drivel.
July 10th, 2012 at 11:56 am
Robin –
You are pathetic because you parse others comments to satisfy your brain fart.
July 10th, 2012 at 11:57 am
The Real Dr. House -
You are probably the most rational of the group here.
July 10th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
K, I am going to ask you this only once, and then I am going to give up.
Please. Keep. Your. Posts. Civil. Do not call people pathetic or accuse their posts of being drivel.
Treat others as you would have them treat you. That is the Golden Rule.
July 10th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Relevant to this essay and ensuing discussion is the K-5 curriculum developed by a couple students working with me a few years ago. It’s introduced and briefly described here, where you can find links to the full pdf, an html version, and also an abbreviated version.
July 10th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Librarian –
May be, just may be, you might want to apply the golden rule to yourself.
July 10th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Fine. I give up. I’m just going to respond to Guy McPherson instead.
Guy McPherson, thank you very much for the link, sir, but unfortunately the PDF link to the curriculum for the post-carbon era no longer works. Do you have an additional PDF copy?
Thank you very much in advance, I would very much appreciate it. ^_^
July 10th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
U.S. Sees Hottest 12 Months And Hottest Half Year On Record:
NOAA Calls Record Heat A One-In-1.6-Million Event
http://www.countercurrents.org/romm100712.htm
July 10th, 2012 at 2:05 pm
As intense heat and drought conditions continue across much of the Midwest, they are starting to take a toll on crop yields. According to a university plant biologist, operating in such conditions is “like farming in hell.”
The U.S. corn crop, which is the largest in the world, is at a very vulnerable point in its development: the pollination phase. Although the harvest isn’t for two months, future yields will be determined in the next few weeks as crops pollinate. However, the unusually hot and dry conditions are complicating this phase.
Bloomberg Businessweek reported on how drought conditions are impacting corn farmers:
“This is a very narrow window for corn, and there’s little room for error,” said Brad Rippey, an agricultural meteorologist for the United States Department of Agriculture. “Whatever happens in that window, it is what it is — that cob is made or broken.”
“Corn yields were falling five bushels a day during the past week” in the driest parts of the Midwest, said Fred Below, a plant biologist at the University of Illinois in Urbana. “You couldn’t choreograph worse weather conditions for pollination. It’s like farming in hell.”
Despite earlier predictions of a record yield, revised forecasts are anticipating crop losses not seen since the drought of 1988.
Rest at http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/09/512829/biologist-on-the-midwestern-drought-its-like-farming-in-hell/?mobile=nc
July 10th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Librarian try this link – I think it is what Guy meant since his name is on it and it comes from counter currents
http://www.countercurrents.org/postcarboncurriculum.htm
I typed this into my google search “K-5 curriculum counter currents” and it came out on top and not as a pdf so it loaded quickly
If it is not what Guy was referring to he can give another link
BTW I think you are an exceptionally civil poster and thank you for trying to deal with K however unsuccessfully.
July 10th, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Benjamin The Donkey: Hunter/Gatherer is going to be tough. Not much out there to gather. We are helping the odds by planting wild rice, and lots of nuts, but who the hell knows. Three sisters and save your seeds.
TRDH. We have our solar pump system coming next week. We will be able to pump from 200 feet down (our water level is 26 feet), and for us if we get it up to 10 ft above ground level, and add in natural slope we think we can get drip tape and soakers to work without a pressure tank. We have 3 wells and two spring fed ponds, it’s the moving it around that causes us a problem. Solar pump system looks like it will be around 1300 dollars, and includes just about everything but the hoses.
July 10th, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Now how many of you here are capable of teaching all the subjects listed in K-5 curriculum? For assist, I reproduce the table of contents. I suggest that those who really care, look at the glossary and ask themselves if they are competent to teach each of the subject at home.
TABLE OF CONTENTS: Page
Introduction 3
Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence 5
Interpersonal Intelligence 14
Intrapersonal Intelligence 19
Linguistic Intelligence 22
Mathematical/Logical Intelligence 64
Musical Intelligence 107
Naturalistic Intelligence 119
Spatial Intelligence 125
Glossaries 130
Linguistic 131
Mathematical/Logical 149
Musical 180
July 10th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
ed Says: “Benjamin The Donkey: Hunter/Gatherer is going to be tough. Not much out there to gather.”
ed, indeed!
Life, after hitting the wall,
Will depend on the power to brawl:
A poor, nasty sort,
Much more brutish and short,
In war of all against all.
July 10th, 2012 at 7:29 pm
Kathy C
Thanks for the background
I will respond soon in a bit of detail
July 10th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
Rita, I’m grateful that you’re getting good amounts of rain (and perhaps a little envious
). According to Weather Underground we only received 0.15″ of rain today. However, that measurement is taken about 20 miles from us at the airport. Based on the amount of water I had to dump out of the wheelbarrow this evening, I’d guess we got about an inch over the last 24 hours. I’m not sure it will be enough to save the ~10% of our trees which have lost their leaves. Only time will tell, I guess.
Of course, looking at a NOAA drought prediction map in the link Kathy C posted, they are predicting that our drought will persist through September, at least. Sigh.
July 10th, 2012 at 7:45 pm
Ed, we don’t have a well of any sort on our property yet. We’re still entirely dependent on rainfall and rural water supply. I’m hoping to change that soon. My neighbor had to have his well redrilled not long ago – the ag industry has been draining our aquifer for some time now. I’m not sure how deep he said they had to go, but I’m thinking it was 200 feet or so.
I just ran across an interesting design for a dog-powered well in a book I just bought. Not sure my dog would be willing to do her part, but you never know.
July 10th, 2012 at 7:51 pm
Kathy C and others intersted in H/G societies.
If you have not yet seen ‘Sex at Dawn- the prehistoric origins of modern sexuality’, by co-authors Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha, which is a refutation of very conservative anthropological values within contemporary archaeology and anthropology about H/G life in prehistory, it is very informative. It is not all about sex, though that is part of the greater story of our ancestory.
In it is a refutation of the Hobbsian NBS- ‘Nasty, Brutish and Short’ scenario for early humans communities.
Any comments are welcome. Their feedback website is at:
http://www.sexatdawn.com/
I have chickens but far fewer.
http://www.shvoong.com/books/155341-cluck-true-story-chickens-cinema/
If you like chickens see the review and read the book, (I have a treasured copy), and you may cackle yourself to oblivion.
Get back to you on my background soon, not putting you off.
July 10th, 2012 at 8:33 pm
K,
The Real Dr. House -
You are probably the most rational of the group here.
Obviously, you haven’t read many of my posts. Frankly, I find many of your comments to be downright mean spirited and unnecessary.
As to the list of topics from some unnamed “glossary” of K-5 curriculum you posted above, I’m skeptical as to its authenticity. I don’t think I know of more than one or two fifth graders who could even attempt to tell me what “Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence” means. Even so, if one disregards the overly pretentious words used to describe some rather simple concepts, I would suspect that anyone who had the equivalent of a high school education could discuss and teach those topics to a 5th grade level without too much trouble.
As an aside, some of your phraseology is not typical of an American speaker. Is English your first language? If you were raised in a culture other than the U.S. perhaps that would help explain some of your viewpoints.
July 10th, 2012 at 9:03 pm
Real Doctor House – Argh! The forecast has changed – just as it always does this time of year. At first it looked like nearly every day had a chance of rain for the rest of the week.
I will do a dance for you folks over there. I always thought you sometimes got weather we didn’t – coming up from Texas.
I have been driving around in the countryside a lot lately as I expect my house to sell quickly and I am listing it tomorrow. I have been looking for land. It is extremely depressing seeing nothing but scorched fields and lots of dead trees.
That farm we gave up to move here for the far superior high school was a full on doom-stead. But all the girls say they are glad we moved, even though they loved their early years in the country.
Back to education. I still believe the elementary grades are best taught at home or in small teacher-student ratio schools. High school maybe not, though I do know home schoolers who have done extremely well at home all 12 grades. It really depends on the individuals interest. It also depends on how bad your public school system is. Also, some kids want to go to school to be with their friends. Mine did.
There is a book called Possom Living written by an 18 yo who went on to work for NASA. It is a fun read.
July 10th, 2012 at 9:17 pm
You are pathetic because you parse others comments to satisfy your brain fart.
If that’s what we get from three master’s degrees, maybe Jennifer has a point.
I suggest that those who really care, look at the glossary and ask themselves if they are competent to teach each of the subject at home.
Or perhaps at the quote preceding the above and consider if they can effect some better outcome.
July 10th, 2012 at 11:14 pm
K
I at least have enjoyed your posts; I like to read a variety of views and I think you raised some valid points. Even those who took offence at your tone would have to concede you got the discussion going. Maybe you only got personal because you didn’t like being so heavily outnumbered? However, it really is better not to get too personal if you can help it. None of us really know each other and I have noticed that when people on this blog make assumptions about those they don’t know they are usually wrong anyway. I don’t object to you saying anyone’s post is drivel, but if you do so I’d like to know why you think it is drivel.
Everyone
I don’t agree with those who think public school is a conspiracy to turn us all into mindless drones submitting unquestioningly to authority. If that is the case then it is failing miserably in its objective. You may have noticed that many people in the West now have very little faith in authority and some are out on the streets protesting at the economic situation. I’m not even sure why critical thinking needs to be taught. Isn’t it simply a matter of saying to someone “Think for yourself and decide if you agree or disagree”? I don’t remember any teachers ever discouraging questions, quite the contrary; they liked it if anybody was sufficiently interested to ask a question.
I went to a Catholic primary school and I’d already decided the Jesus story was full of holes by the time I left (aged 11). I remember particularly thinking it made no sense for Judas to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver or Peter to deny he knew Jesus three times before the cock crowed. What matter a little monetary gain or freedom from imprisonment (even crucifixion) when one’s immortal soul is at stake? And if after being around Jesus for so long and seeing him perform miracles they didn’t believe he was the son of God, why should I? Many of my peers shared my skepticism, yet none of us needed to be taught critical thinking for this to be the case. (Kathy, what took you so long?)
My biggest problem with public schooling now is the increasing irrelevance of qualifications. It has become more and more difficult to land a job throughout my lifetime. When my parents’ generation (they were born during WW2) left school they could choose pretty much any job/career they wanted provided they had the qualifications. Now most young adults are happy to get any job regardless of how well qualified they are. Secondary (high) school children are well aware of this and many of them see little point in studying hard when they know there will be no job at the end of it. How much more difficult will the situation be by the time Jennifer’s daughter leaves school, even if industrial civilization hasn’t collapsed by then? It’s also usually the case that personality and who you know are more likely to land a job than qualifications, so IF being homeschooled helps one to become more well adjusted and more integrated into the community it must be a good thing.
July 11th, 2012 at 12:49 am
When the rapier of logic pierces the emotional heart of authoritarianism, the shattering of that authoritarian personality can only be a averted by sloughing off of any pretense to logic. Logical fallacies, including ad hominems are therefore substituted, usually couched in deep emotional tones that reflect their origins in the non-rational part of the psyche.
Tangentially off topic, but addressing the root of the problem, this episode of The Survival Podcast, by its host Jack Spirko (who is a permaculturist in Arkansas) is definitely worth a listen – and although much of it is “preaching to choir” for the NBL community, it does put its own english on some of the issues.
Episode-938- Understanding the Problems vs the Symptoms July 10, 2012 at 11:20
July 11th, 2012 at 1:22 am
I’m not even sure why critical thinking needs to be taught.
Some may understand why after listening to the podcast linked to above.
“Think for yourself and decide if you agree or disagree” is indeed good advice, but only so if the thinker is capable of thinking critically. If that were more prevalent, we may have had Occupy K Street rather than Occupy Wall Street.
Those who believe that their support of the public school system is justified may be better able to consolidate their positions after listening to the podcasts linked to in my comments on Jennifer’s prior post
Another Brick in the Wall Part 1
Another Brick in the Wall Part 2
Public Education and The Hall of Mirrors
These are episodes of the Gnostic Media podcast in which the host Jan Irwin Interviews John Taylor Gatto, a veteran of three decades as a teacher in the New York Public School system.
July 11th, 2012 at 1:54 am
Yorchichan
Regarding the view that most think Empire schooling prepares young people poorly with critical thinking skills;
my reading of some majority concensus is that Empire schooling finds a way to be largly just that, serving the dominant needs of the Empire, and not really deconstructing it and being critical of it.
I’m not willing to stretch that out to all schooling. It does happen and most likely the less money in public education the worse the outcome in that scale.
Look there are a few things to say. Here in NSW, Australia we have had a stste wide educational priority in primary and secondary schools to address Aboriginal disadvantage and cultural issues. I have listened to many experienced teachers bemoan how hard it is to motivate thier students to engage in an Aboriginal perspective on every bit of course content. I think this is more prevelent in primary schools. The hope is that in many years to come there will be future generations with a degree of familiarity with Aboriginal culture so as to counterbalance the present ignorance and some widespread prejudice.
That is all well and good, and is not a bad plan. However, critical thinking developes with exposure to social conversations and discourse that demonstrates it. Adults can usually readily see which students come to them with some of this in their family background, though that is not always obvious, just in some students who either show lots or very little critical thinking capacity.
Too much doctrinaire school focus on needed reform can oversupply an area of worthy study and focus, and may end up turning many off.
I think exposure to critical thinking is key. Where that occurs in a child’s upbringing is perhaps what influences thier adoption and awareness, and scepticism of power, authority, money, social manipulation and the like.
I was exposed to some well educated teachers at a public high school in the mid 1970s, and the ideas were not too radical, and not too mainstream, but if we are wanting public schools to offer a cogent indefensable critique of the raveges of contemporary Empire, I would think we would need a very big supply of oxygen to hold a breath and wait for it.
There is also a bigger engagement with the environment here in primary schools. Even some school vegetable gardens tended all year round, but it seems that relies on committed local teachers and parients. (Who else can we rely on for the educational focus we wish for?)
Regarding the uselessness of a high school qualification you draw attention to, you may find a 1 hour Jefferson Memorial Lecture given in 2007 or 2008 by Elizabeth Warren, the Leo Gottleib Professor of law at Harvard Law School, titled:
“The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class – Higher Risks, Lower Rewards, and a Shrinking Safety Net.” helpful. Here is a Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
It looks at mostly North America and it is 1 hour well worth watching. If you watch it do yourself a favour and don’t skip any and be a stayer its worth it. Also it is not, repeat not, a ‘Collapse’ issue document/lecture, professor Warren is no Mike Ruppert, …eh… sorry, Dancing with Wolv.. err.. Tracker of Truth, but she does know her area of expertise, which is bankrupcy and insolvency economics in America. That said it does chart a pretty sweet set of problems for ordinary capitalist folk, and how their way of life is losing any power and privelage.
I have five children from 12 years to 20, but consciously chose to not own property. No bank is going to own my arse.
I can’t say we are doing very well economically though, but that will all smooth out when death comes knocking, (in my case).
The twig twirling is looking pretty good at the moment.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:08 am
This cut and paste from me, the Queen of cut and Paste, is a set of studies of studies and thus is only as good as the studies in it. But it is federally funded and comes from a time when the government of the US still wanted public schools to stay around. It is not funded by some home school advocacy group. At the link you can see more pros and cons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Research
“In the 1970s Raymond S. and Dorothy N. Moore conducted four federally funded analyses of more than 8,000 early childhood studies, from which they published their original findings in Better Late Than Early, 1975. This was followed by School Can Wait, a repackaging of these same findings designed specifically for educational professionals.[24] They concluded that, “where possible, children should be withheld from formal schooling until at least ages eight to ten.”
Their reason was that children, “are not mature enough for formal school programs until their senses, coordination, neurological development and cognition are ready.” They concluded that the outcome of forcing children into formal schooling is a sequence of “1) uncertainty as the child leaves the family nest early for a less secure environment, 2) puzzlement at the new pressures and restrictions of the classroom, 3) frustration because unready learning tools – senses, cognition, brain hemispheres, coordination – cannot handle the regimentation of formal lessons and the pressures they bring, 4) hyperactivity growing out of nerves and jitter, from frustration, 5) failure which quite naturally flows from the four experiences above, and 6) delinquency which is failure’s twin and apparently for the same reason.”[25] According to the Moores, “early formal schooling is burning out our children. Teachers who attempt to cope with these youngsters also are burning out.”[25] Aside from academic performance, they think early formal schooling also destroys “positive sociability”, encourages peer dependence, and discourages self worth, optimism, respect for parents, and trust in peers. They believe this situation is particularly acute for boys because of their delay in maturity. The Moores cited a Smithsonian Report on the development of genius, indicating a requirement for “1) much time spent with warm, responsive parents and other adults, 2) very little time spent with peers, and 3) a great deal of free exploration under parental guidance.”[25] Their analysis suggested that children need “more of home and less of formal school” “more free exploration with… parents, and fewer limits of classroom and books,” and “more old fashioned chores – children working with parents – and less attention to rivalry sports and amusements.”[25]”
Cut and paste with links is similar to footnoting a paper. It is standard procedure for anyone who has been through an educational program to provide some backup for their assertions. Buy of course footnotes all his essays in the form of embedded links. Once you have noted a study one can challenge a study for its method or bias etc. If you only post assertions then you are only putting forth personal beliefs. When I say “I don’t think” I am announcing that this is a personal belief. How can another argue against a personal belief with nothing more than their personal belief. Science has its flaws but it moves us away from personal beliefs into the area of testing those beliefs for validity.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:18 am
Regarding K’s list of K=5 studies, that comes from the counter current article that Guy listed – I give K credit for at least checking that out. However K is being selective – here is the link again – when one cuts and pastes if the link is provided one can check out and see how selective that cutting and pasting is. http://www.countercurrents.org/postcarboncurriculum.htm
The headings sound like really difficult things because they are using what I presume are scientific terms to describe them – however just checking out the first one Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence yeah wow that sounds hard to teach until you translate it which you do by reading further than the contents
for instance would anyone have trouble teaching this ??? I wouldn’t
Standard 1
Students demonstrate proficiency and the achievement of higher order cognitive skills necessary to enhance motor skills.
Students know and are able to do the following:
• Demonstrate progress toward the mature form of selected manipulative, locomotor and nonlocomotor skills.
1. demonstrate a variety of manipulative skills (e.g., strike, throw, dribble, kick, roll, catch, trap, punt and volley)
2. demonstrate locomotor skills (e.g., walk, run, hop, jump, skip, slide, gallop, and leap)
3. demonstrate a variety of nonlocomotor skills (e.g., bend, turn, twist, balance, stretch, push, pull, rock and sway)
Or teaching this Interpersonal Intelligence – I think I could handle this
Team Work:
1. Knows what a team is
2. Understands that the basic set up of a team is several people working together
3. Is able to identify the leader of a team
Empathy:
1. Identify healthy ways to handle feelings.
2. Is able to identify the basic emotions others may have (for example, “mom is happy”).
Building Relationships:
1. Recognize adults in familiar environments.
2. Cooperate in games with familiar adults.
3. Seek attention of familiar adults.
4. Recognize members of immediate family.
5. Communicate with members of immediate family.
6. Name members of immediate family
7. Show awareness of family roles (for example, parents, siblings, extended family).
July 11th, 2012 at 2:55 am
Again tangential to the topic, but illustrative of some of the issues:
Dmitry Orlov in his latest post on his blog Club Orlov:
<a href="http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/07/peak-oil-oppositional-disorder-neurosis.html?m=0
Peak Oil Oppositional Disorder: Neurosis or Psychosis?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:58 am
Again tangential to the topic, but illustrative of some of the issues:
Dmitry Orlov in his latest post on his blog Club Orlov:
Peak Oil Oppositional Disorder: Neurosis or Psychosis?
Pardon the HTML syntax error.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:45 am
Robin Datta
Great link on the ‘problem and solution’ thing.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:59 am
Robin Datta
I think the Orlov site is a remedy for stressed and anxious people worried about collapse issues. But it doesn’y help, merely a brief respite on your boattrip into the big wide calm ocean, into the inferno.
All
Does a website owner get revenue from other sites who link to it and sitehits from their isp provider?
If so Orlov will get a lot of revinue as collapse fears rise steadily.
July 11th, 2012 at 4:02 am
Homeschooling in music
July 11th, 2012 at 4:28 am
Putting the word ‘intellegence’ at the end of a skill reminds me of when they went through and put ‘science’ on the end of everything, Computer science, resource science, environmental science, social sciences, aeronaughtical science, engineering science… It is just a lot of balony. The credential game!
July 11th, 2012 at 4:46 am
The Real Dr. House -
The list is from the curiculum Guy M. cited in his comment, I did not make it up. Most public schools have something called POS – Program of Study – and if you read that it is also full of buzz words and also equally highminded for our kids.
My question was how many can be homeschool teachers under this curiculum. So far no takers. And, that is why we need teachers who specialize, as explained by Publicly Schooled.
And, that is why we need Guy M., to point out his views that present fossil fuel based life is likely unsustainable. Some, like many here, subscribe to doom and gloom. Some of us think that humans are very resilent animal and will adapt before the envisioned abyss.
Now all those commenters who feel attacked. Get less sensitive and start thinking critically instead of cutting and pasting. Just look at the collective attacks on a few who disagree with the collective’s views. A suggestion: most my comments are usually referred to a person, try to let that person answer and sometimes it pays to enjoy the dialog between the two and refrain from butting in to save one or another and condemn the one who does not abide by the sandbox religion.
Let me restate: Jennifer wrote the article and my first comment was to her specifically. Everybody but Jennifer has jumped in. Honestly, I find her writing stimulating and she is thoughtful, I wish I could say the same for most of you.
My english – it is cultivated here in the great USA at three different universities, all on scholarships.
July 11th, 2012 at 5:37 am
one who does not abide by the sandbox religion.
Authoritarians may retain habits formed in hierarchical society, in spite of or because of scholarships at multiple universities.
Not only logical fallacies, but also cognitive biases such as name calling are rife under such conditions.
July 11th, 2012 at 5:46 am
K I noted above that the high sounding words are replaced with simpler words in the detail. I have paged through more of the document and I do not see any item in the detail yet that I think I or anyone on this site could not teach. I expect that most of us could teach a days worth in 2 hours. A teacher with 20 kids has to spend a lot of time on controlling them and disciplining them. Such a classroom deprives those who need a bit extra attention from receiving it. In small schools with mixed grades of children, the ones one year or two years ahead assist in teaching the younger ones. You really only need to stay a step or two ahead to teach even more difficult material. I doubt most adults are up to teaching high school subjects unless they are in their field, but on line teaching is available.
Below is another example from the detail. Any of us rusty in our rules of capitalization can surely brush up on it. Most here seem to use the language properly and spell pretty well (except VT who keeps putting an sh on people) and capitalize and punctuate appropriately so I don’t think this would be a challenge. Please give examples from the detail that you think would be hard. I have given this and several more previously.
from the section on Linguistic Intelligence
Conventions addresses the mechanics of writing, including capitalization, punctuation, spelling, grammar and usage, and paragraph breaks.
1. Use capital letters correctly for:
a. proper nouns
• place names
• holidays
• languages
• historical events
• organizations
b. literary titles (i.e., book, story, poem, play, song)
c. titles
d. abbreviations
e. words used as names (i.e., Mother, Uncle Jim)
July 11th, 2012 at 6:21 am
K
You are valued.
The best thing is you finally used the word most of us have been waiting for – ‘us’…
Welcome, and I’m new here too.
Hey, a sandbox can be where you twirl a twig or play with a few rocks.
I bet Guy is having some great fun, and learning more too.
July 11th, 2012 at 6:45 am
Robin Datta
Great link on music and homeschooling.
July 11th, 2012 at 7:55 am
OZ man:
When you say
K
You are valued.
You are so right.
The most valued aspect is that it makes us aware of our unstated norms of conduct that were evolved through mutual consensus.
For one who does not abide by the sandbox religion a more appropriate form of social interaction would be in an environment of laws – enforceable and enforced rules. There is no dearth of blogs where the blog owner has posted a very explicit set of rules that are enforced by an iron hand, without a velvet glove - eine eiserne Hand, ohne ein Samthandschuh.
July 11th, 2012 at 7:58 am
I forgot to add Heil, mein Führer
July 11th, 2012 at 8:30 am
For all the blowhards, my comment was addressed to The Real Dr. House.
Again, let the dialog develop and refrain from compulsion to say something whether it makes sense or not.
July 11th, 2012 at 9:10 am
my comment was addressed to The Real Dr. House.
“sandbox religion” is a reference to this community. It was posted on a public blog. It is open for response by any and all. Yet another one of the sandbox religion’s customs.
July 11th, 2012 at 9:14 am
Here are must read posts, on a the manufacruring of a waste based society,and how and who FUBARed the 7 billion, Start with part 1…
http://theautomaticearth.org/Finance/waste-based-society-iii-solutions-and-alternatives.html
and where the debt came from:
http://www.businessinsider.com/politics-economics-facts-charts-2012-6?op=1
Please read and comment. I need some sleep.
July 11th, 2012 at 9:24 am
The second link turns out to point the debt finger, in the USA at least, at social and health care programs. I don’t know that I agree with the conclusions of the writer in the link, but it is interesting to see someone advocate a long term fix, say 30 years of considderable economic discipline, whatever that means-probably more fascism, and the like. It is America the article is talking about.
July 11th, 2012 at 9:47 am
Cute
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=522657271097276&set=a.228242160538790.77342.228041907225482&type=1&ref=nf
July 11th, 2012 at 10:51 am
The purpose of public education is simple. We live in an industrial culture that survives on growth. For growth to continue our culture requires workers. In order to participate in such a climate one has to be trained, convinced, brainwashed or whatever word or process you feel comfortable using.
If you feel the culture is a dysfunctional monster then why would you subject your child to that kind of experience?
Of course most have other things on their mind so I guess the system is at least successful in terms of growth.
July 11th, 2012 at 11:24 am
Kathy C –
What you just described is to start a micro public schools for the children of post-fossil age as you envisioned it. This will work as long as the solar cells driven water pumping systems fail. Why? There is no industry left to replace the stuff, nor there will be knowledge or resources in the struggling post-fossil community. The worst case will be the slow degradation of linguistic intelligence, because nobody will care to learn as there is no return in it.
July 11th, 2012 at 1:09 pm
K “Kathy C – What you just described is to start a micro public schools for the children of post-fossil age as you envisioned it. ”
I’m sorry but I do not know where is described starting micro public schools….please tell me which post you are referring to by time and date.
July 11th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Kathy C –
Here is from what you said in your previous comment:
…In small schools with mixed grades of children, the ones one year or two years ahead assist in teaching the younger ones. You really only need to stay a step or two ahead to teach even more difficult material. I doubt most adults are up to teaching high school subjects unless they are in their field…
If I were critically think through your comment, it means that you will need help in teaching, whether they are a year or two ahead kids, [or other parents], and on second breath, you accept that most adults are not up to teaching high school level, [and possibly even up to K-5 level]. Much more realistically, not all adults are motivated to teach and it is best that it be left to someone better in the community of post fossil age. In other words, start a micro school until the pumps fail or solar cells fail.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:30 pm
K ok thanks for clarifying. My point was that in the lower grades a child one step up can teach a child thus it shouldn’t be hard for an adult to teach a child. I wasn’t advocating any type of school just addressing the point that teaching young children the subject matter is not that difficult.
Actually on further thought any adult who graduated from high school can probably teach most high school courses unless they did very badly in it. I am sure with a good material I could teach just about any high school course except perhaps physics.
You said “If I were critically think through your comment, it means that you will need help in teaching, whether they are a year or two ahead kids” Are you suggesting that that public school teachers don’t need help in teaching. They went to college, they go to continuing education, they have to prepare lesson plans, they have texts they teach from. So you wouldn’t expect a home schooling parent to just wing it would you?
I begin to remember my son’s kindergarten teacher. I thought she was amazing how she gently controlled the classroom and used many different situations to teach. I and several other parents volunteered so that it kept her virtual class size much smaller than necessary. Yet looking back I realize I never heard a child ask a question. Every moment of their day was planned, there was no room for spontaneity. Control was gentle but it was still a very controlled situation. My kids went to kindergarten way ahead of most kids in knowledge base. I enjoyed teaching them but was glad to let the state take over. I might not have been a good teacher over time. I am willing to admit all this and yet say that I now see that public school has enough bad aspects that I no longer think home schooling a bad idea. Shared schooling among parents is not a bad idea if kept small so you don’t loose the advantage of low student to pupil ratio. That would be micro but not public – although home schooling is in a sense still public as you have to pass state exams so the curricula is partly determined by the state (I’m not sure if that is true of all states)
You seem very rigid in your views – I hope you are not a public school teacher for I think your rigidity would stifle free expression, just as you attempt to stifle it here. But luckily we are not kids, and Guy gives us free reign in this sandbox and so you are free to express yourself and so am I.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:31 pm
K – you still haven’t answered my question. What states have capital punishment for what minor crimes?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Meanwhile back at the ranch or farm – get read for news of food shortages and rising food prices.
http://news.yahoo.com/usda-surprises-deep-cut-corn-harvest-drought-175228138.html
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The worst Midwest drought in a quarter century is doing more damage to U.S. crops than previously expected with the government on Wednesday slashing its estimate for what was supposed to be a record harvest.
The U.S. Department of Agriculture said the corn crop will average just 146 bushels an acre, down 20 bushels from its June estimate and a much more dramatic drop than analysts had projected.
This is what matters, not whether one home schools or not
July 11th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
it would be really nice if you guys actually READ all the posts on this page.
seriously……
July 11th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Kathy C -
I did answer your question, but it seems you have difficulty understanding it because you parse way too much and not think through.
You would be the worst teacher whether at home or in a school. Poor kids would never understand your fixations.
July 11th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
Multi-age Education
July 11th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Choosing Multiage
July 11th, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Ms. T., Inc. : Ms. T., Inc.: Meaningful Strategies for Teachers
July 11th, 2012 at 7:19 pm
The Odysseus Group – John Taylor Gatto: Chapter 7 – The Prussian Connection
July 11th, 2012 at 7:54 pm
Kathy C -
I did answer your question, but it seems you have difficulty understanding it because you parse way too much and not think through.
Where is the link or the list with references?
A list, if parsed, still retains data. A link loses syntax. No matter how much parsed, the original list will remain. So will a link.
The allegation of excessive parsing is wearing thin, while the habit of name-calling (blowhard) is being reinforced.
July 11th, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Maybe a fourth degree (with a scholarship) could effect a bit of improvement.
July 11th, 2012 at 8:50 pm
Much to ponder here. I appreciate reading these comments, whether individuals agree with my beliefs or not. I’ve been keeping my distance on commenting further, as I’ve been dismayed by the aggressive tone that’s flared up. It doesn’t help me to engage in dialogue. I’ve had many thoughts in response to many comments, but have held my tongue (or rather, fingers). I’m not deliberately ignoring anyone; I just don’t feel like enduring aggression. I’ve had to endure enough aggression in my life, and no doubt will have to endure more; I don’t see a need to actively volunteer for it. And yes, I distinguish this very clearly from criticism. I don’t think my beliefs or actions (or those of others) are above criticism, but there are constructive, respectful ways to criticize. Constructive criticism allows room for dialogue and respectful disagreement, and usually takes the time to establish whatever common ground may exist.
My goals in writing about my educational philosophy to a wider audience are to clarify my own thoughts to myself, to gain insight from others’ reactions, and to spur thinking and discussion on the topic of education in the context of collapse. So far, I’m pleased to be meeting those goals, and will continue pursuing them. I’ll be spending time contemplating my next essay topic (as well as constructing a chicken run and a wood shed, gardening, helping my daughter learn how to swim and ride a bike–although not at the same time, and other assorted projects).
July 11th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Oz Man
Thanks for the link to the Jefferson lecture. I had actually seen this before (these things tend to do the rounds) and I agree it’s good. With rampant ‘true’ inflation and low (if any) pay rises I know anyway from my own observations how the standard of living is dropping.
If you think collapse is coming soon and you can scrape a deposit together plus get a mortgage, maybe now is a good time to get a house. If the banks go, the house is yours! With your own house you could at least grow some of your own food. Then again, I once read that the long term sustainable population of Australia is about a million. (I expect this figure is simply the Aboriginal population before Europeans arrived.) If true (and it seems low to me), it probably won’t matter what preparations you make.
Robin
I tried listening to a couple of your podcasts on the harmful effects of public schooling but they dragged on interminably. I’m afraid life’s too short.
The abuse must be real bad if it’s even getting to you.
July 11th, 2012 at 11:22 pm
This one is off-topic, but with a very minimal knowledge of science one can see that it has some pretty deep insights in addition to much useful and practical information.
The Survival Podcast, hosted by Jack Spirko:
Episode-939- Steven Harris on Dealing with a Large Scale Blackout – Part 1 July 11, 2012 at 7:32 am
July 11th, 2012 at 11:33 pm
Long and rambling podcasts are better suited for downloading to the iPhone or other similar device to be kept in a pocket for listening via earbudss while going about doing other things.
July 11th, 2012 at 11:40 pm
I’ve been dismayed by the aggressive tone that’s flared up.
There will always be riff-raff in the world. When they show up in our community, we either stoop to their level or make it quite clear to them that their stench is unwelcome.
July 11th, 2012 at 11:47 pm
k reminds me a bit of turboguy! who last posted on this blog last year i think. both combative and out of step with the prevalent ‘sand box religion’ here. they might make a fine couple, don’t u think?
‘the system is at least successful in terms of growth.’
so are cancers, until they kill their host.
‘you don’t loose the advantage’
kathy, a gentle reminder here, since on the topic of education (and spelling), u and others here are still spelling the verb ‘lose’ with an extra ‘o’. elsewise, i continue to find your comments among the most insightful, stimulating, and revelatory posted to this blog. high praise imo, considering the quality of ideas expressed by others.
July 11th, 2012 at 11:57 pm
‘There will always be riff-raff in the world. When they show up in our community, we either stoop to their level or make it quite clear to them that their stench is unwelcome.’
pretty judgemental, from one who once admonished me for judgementalism. it seems robin indeed has been bothered by some recent comments (including probably mine), stooping himself to the level he deplores in others at times.
another day closer to teotwawki (the end of the world as we know it).
July 12th, 2012 at 12:11 am
the virgin terry
You are perspicacious again. Perhaps I should have written:
There will always be saints in the world. When they show up in our community, we either aspire to their level or make it quite clear to them that their fragrance is welcome.
July 12th, 2012 at 12:31 am
You know, the virgin terry, I hereby bow to your wisdom: let the comment read:
There will always be saints in the world. When they show up in our community, we either aspire to their level or make it quite clear to them that their fragrance is welcome.
Hope this meets your approval.
July 12th, 2012 at 12:38 am
This is off topic too but I think there is likely something in between BAU and TEOTWAWKI if TSHTF.(Ha!)
I see the middle ground happening, where TPTB carve up the regions of the world that are vegetable and livstock production areas, that get rainfall, and others that are wasteland, polluted or have too many people and problems. Some of those floating barges may be there too.
But TPTB never ever leave themselves without a bolthole to go to, that’s how they have survived so long.
The viable regions will be preferred zones and access will be limited, and the rest will have to tough it out. As for taxes and institutions, and education, well… as Ripley says in Alien to the Company guy : “You can just kiss all that goodby!”
It seems reasonable from the POV of TPTB to maintain their privelage there will be some need for plebs and not too few either.
Collapse may be better if it is swift, but it is considderably less in favour of everyday people if it is slower, as there will be no cessation of the Laws, and thus progressive harsher recriminations will keep being implimented.
This is one reason I will probably never get a home loan, because if we have drawn out collapse, then the Bank-uckers will get it off me before they go out. Also I find it hard to believe there will not be an out clause for the Bank-uckers in such an eventuality.
I think I am settling on the idea of ‘Secure Nomadism’. I put the word secure as a loose prefix just to convince others it is a safe way to go, but that is obviously not so.
I just viewed the Classified section in the top bar of NBL, and it seems like you have to have money to join anything. I find that very wierd, without passing judgemnet on the actual participants who advertise there.
The best things in life are free.
Old sayings, where would we be without them?
Come to think of it, where are we exactly?
July 12th, 2012 at 12:45 am
Actually some of them in the classifieds do say they will not turn anyone away who has little finances, but these situations require the person to be very good at some skills that are valuable.
Some of that is reasonable, but my original point seeems to hold still.
July 12th, 2012 at 4:16 am
Then, Jennifer, I apologize for my own aggressive tone. I was trying to defend you from Publicly Schooled and K’s aggression, but I was unsuccessful.
July 12th, 2012 at 4:34 am
Now I understand a few (or many) here are TEOTWAWKI! When one leaves a sandbox, the sandbox ends, and there is no way to know how many others from sandbox also left.
So, oh dear TEOTWAWKI! Know that the world does not end, it is you who will end while looking at the white light with eyes closes forever!
More simply, the world is here for over four billion years, you ain’t!
July 12th, 2012 at 5:39 am
With big thanks to Jennifer Hartley for her excellent, evocative essay, I’ve posted anew, based on my recent trip to New Zealand. The post is here.
July 12th, 2012 at 12:05 pm
lol. touche, robin. only now u’re being judgemental in a positive way. can’t win, can u?
k, u misinterpret plain english. teotwawki isn’t saying the world ends. it’s saying the world AS WE KNOW IT will end.
July 12th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
the v t -
You do not understand what I said. When you leave this sandbox, for you the sandbox ends! Replace sandbox with the world.