by Pepper Givens
This summer, hundreds of millions of residents in India endured two days of stalled productivity, traffic jams and pretty much chaos as the country endured back-to-back power outages. Suffering the largest blackout in the planet’s history, the country went dark and, while the world noticed, no one seemed to really understand why — or at least the mainstream media made no attempt to delve into it.
They, rather, covered the devastation and lost company time that came with the territory. They documented stopped traffic and citywide collapse, but when it came to the root of the problem were next to silent. Do you think anyone from the general public could give a thorough, educated reason for the events — most likely not. Sure, specialists in the field who know what to look for, but what about the average Joe? Well, with the current media and educational systems we have in place, it’s no surprise the answer is no.
To clue those of you in who might not know where I’m going with this, the cause of these massive outages was a combination of things — a bad system setup, high demand and out-of-whack temperatures caused by a climate that is a bit off track all because of global warming. Sure, the Indian electrical system is challenged on a regular basis as it tries to pump energy throughout the veins of such a large population — that’s nothing new — but factor in the intense heat and extreme conditions the country as a whole was battling because of missed monsoons and you have the recipe for disaster.
But, as I already suggested, the blackout itself is not the problem here. The problem is the lackadaisical approach so much of the world seems to be having toward this ever-growing issue of climate change and environmental stress. Educators, leaders, policy-makers and of course, “talking heads” alike are, for most part all side-stepping the tough issues and rather distracting with other problems.
Granted, there are the select few who seek to spread awareness and knowledge, but the overwhelming majority does their part to silence them, for whatever reason. Perhaps they just don’t want to deal with it and are in a state of denial; perhaps there’s some ulterior motive involved (although I’m pretty sure we all lose when it comes to dramatic climate change); perhaps they are just at a loss and struggling to buy themselves sometime while they look for an answer. Whatever it is, the current approach is pathetic at best, leaving the world with nothing but a bunch of ignorant consumers who “know not what they do.”
But seriously, how many of you give the issue of climate change a second thought? What about over consumption of resources? While the people reading this blog might consider these issues, think of the other billions of people on the planet. A good deal of them would look at you like you were speaking a foreign language if you delved into the ins and outs of the scientific issues, and that’s a problem.
Our system of awareness and education needs to improve for our children, students, businesses and families. This is especially true when talking about something such as electricity — a luxury most of the developed world enjoys and utilizes throughout their days. People need to stop being kept in the dark about the issues that could potentially affect their future on this planet. The more we know, the more we can work toward positive, effective change that makes difference.
So, yes, the rolling blackouts throughout India are a great example of how our planet’s responding to extreme environmental issues. We need to start taking notice and action to ensure we prevent something even larger from happening. In these situations, the best defense you can have is knowledge and information, so let’s stop depriving our public of that, deal?
In an ideal world, it would be just that simple.
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Pepper Givens is a freelance blogger and webmaster who commonly writes for onlinecolleges.net. Pepper welcomes your questions, comments, and any other kind of feedback you’d like to offer.
September 5th, 2012 at 6:47 am
It might also be possible that the world’s electrical grid is the Achilles heel of civilization. Thus for those that believe it is our unfettered belief that civilization as we know it must go on, despite where it is taking us (oblivion), then this Achilles heel may be the fastest route to the kind of cathartic collapse needed for a sustainable alternative to emerge.
September 5th, 2012 at 7:12 am
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Meet the New America. The Global Oligarchy is securely in place, and the world is their’s. Nation-States are so passé.
http://homes.yahoo.com/news/real-estate-tourism–who-s-really-buying-america-s-homes-.html
Real estate tourism: Who’s really buying America’s homes?
Russian billionaires have been making headlines for snapping up some of the most opulent homes in the United States. Yuri Milner “overpaid” by 100% on a $100 million Silicon Valley mansion in 2011. Dmitry Rybolovlev’s daughter bought an $88 million penthouse in New York City (after spending $100 million on Donald Trump’s Palm Beach palace in 2008). This month, an anonymous Russian buyer plunked down $47 million in Miami’s most expensive sale ever.
But Russians certainly aren’t the only foreigners plowing money into American real estate. “The reason the Russians get so much attention is that they buy the highest ticket trophy properties,” says Jacky Teplitzky, a managing director at Prudential Douglas Elliman Real Estate, who peddles property in New York City and South Florida. “But if you go by number of buyers, you have much more activity coming from places like Argentina, Brazil, Colombia and Venezuela.”
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September 5th, 2012 at 8:42 am
There are very real and numerous compounded reasons why the grid in India shut down including loss of rainfall to power hydroelectric dams, corruption, lack of coal, lack of monitoring, poorly built infrastructure, illegal tapping of grids in the slums, increasing demand, and overpopulation.
“The events of the past week have made clear that no system exists to prevent a repeat of the grid collapse, and no one in government has articulated a clear plan to address the crisis. Hours after Monday’s blackout, the central government promoted Power Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde to one of the cabinet’s two most powerful posts, that of Home Minister. He told reporters his performance as Power Minister was “excellent” and said “this country does not need to worry” about the electrical shortfall.”
Uh huh, right.
“The cause of the grid collapse remains unclear. Many power experts predict it will eventually be shown to have been human or mechanical failure. But most of the blame is being pinned on “greedy” states that sucked more than their share off the power supply, which is apportioned out in ratios determined by the central government. The states angrily deny they were overdrawing, saying they were no more than 5 per cent above their allotted draw – but the national ministry has produced evidence that, for example, massive Uttar Pradesh was warned no fewer than 402 times between June 1 and July 16 for exceeding its allotment of electricity.”
Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/the-lights-are-back-on-in-india-but-the-future-is-dim/article4462554/
It is my opinion that we are not kept ‘in the dark’ so much as we voluntarily keep our own heads in the sand. The information about our dilemma is available to anyone who takes the time to read it.
September 5th, 2012 at 9:19 am
Richard C. Duncan, the author of the Olduvai Theory and an Electrical Engineer by training, put the date for the start of widespread blackouts at 2012. Maybe his engineering background may have helped.
September 5th, 2012 at 9:23 am
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First it was unwritten, now it is becoming written. As of late, there has been downward pressure on wages/salaries, and pressure to work longer hours. Now, it’s about to be codified. Of course, in the developing world this has been the norm since forever, but as we know, it’s coming to the developed world much sooner than most think, or even realize. I really do believe that if Nature doesn’t do its job, and there is still some time to buy in this decline, we will return to slavery, and this is just the beginning. The rules are increasingly in fewer and fewer people’s favor.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/04/eurozone-six-day-week-greece
Eurozone demands six-day week for Greece
Greece’s eurozone creditors are demanding that the government in Athens introduce a six-day working week as part of the stiff terms for the country’s second bailout.
The demand is contained in a leaked letter from the “troika” of the country’s lenders, the European commission, European Central Bank, and International Monetary Fund. In the letter, the officials policing Greece’s compliance with the austerity package imposed in return for the bailout insist on radical labour market reforms, from minimum wages to overtime limits to flexible working hours, that are likely to worsen the standoff between the government and organised labour in Greece.
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September 5th, 2012 at 9:36 am
An oldie but still very relevant:
The U. S. Electric Grid: Will It Be Our Undoing?
September 5th, 2012 at 9:46 am
The electrical grid may be just one more item in the stewpot:
Global Extinction within one Human Lifetime as a Result of a Spreading Atmospheric Arctic Methane Heat wave and Surface Firestorm
September 5th, 2012 at 10:02 am
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From Robin’s link:
The warning about extinction is stark. It is remarkable that global scientists had not anticipated a giant buildup of methane in the atmosphere when it had been so clearly predicted 10 to 20 years ago and has been shown to be critically linked to extinction events in the geological record (Kennett et al. 2003). Furthermore all the experiments should have already been done to determine which geoengineering methods were the most effective in oxidising/destroying the methane in the atmosphere in case it should ever build up to a concentration where it posed a threat to humanity. Those methods need to be applied immediately if there is any faint hope of reducing the catastrophic heating effects of the fast building atmospheric methane concentration.
Geoengineering is a foregone conclusion, imo, and they’ll never get it right, and instead, as a result, will bring it down even quicker. Oh well, might as well get it over with sooner rather than later. At least we can avoid the slavery phase.
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September 5th, 2012 at 10:08 am
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Also from the comments to the article Robin provided about Methane release.
Whilst there appears to be a continuing increase in Svalbard CH4 readings, the spike reported in the above paper were preliminary data and have now disappeared from the record. Would the author like to comment on why the apparent huge methane release has not yet shown up (in final data) in the various measuring stations around the arctic?
Hmmmmmm…..
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September 5th, 2012 at 10:20 am
The latest data from the Arctic, provided by Applied Physics Laboratory/Polar Science Center at the University of Washington , support the earlier assessment by the Arctic Methane Emergency Group regarding exponential loss of Arctic sea ice. Bottom line: “In conclusion, it looks like there will be no sea ice from August 2015 through to October 2015, while a further three months look set to reach zero in 2017, 2018 and 2019 (respectively July, November and June). Before the start of the year 2020, in other words, there will be zero sea ice for the six months from June through to November.”
“And, events may unfold even more rapidly, as discussed earlier at Getting the picture.”
September 5th, 2012 at 10:31 am
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In Robin’s article, the author responds to that comment that NOAA is responsible for the data, and that the spike was there, and then it wasn’t, but 2011 data is still preliminary, and the spike may show up again in the Final data set. Why did NOAA remove the spike? Either way, it still stands to reason that the melting of the Arctic Ice combined with the melting of the Russian Tundra Permafrost is going to unleash gobs of methane, massaged data, or no massaged data.
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September 5th, 2012 at 11:28 am
How can education help at this point? Most schools in the USA have taught evolution for many years yet a good proportion of Americans won’t believe it. Our culture, with its emphasis on consumption, will sink or swim but it won’t change. It will, of course, sink.
September 5th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
A much better article on the power outage in India is here:
http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/india-power-outage-the-shape-of-things-to-come.html
with very revealing pics.
The PIOMAS data is not as extreme as Paul Beckwith, but it’s been my experience that doctoral students know everything. They have to, because they’ll be examined at length by people who THINK they know everything.
September 5th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
The “school of hard knocks” is, for some people, the only school capable of imparting an education. But as General Patton had said, “Those who sweat more in peace bleed less in war”. The prospects for substantial bleeding seem to get better with each passing day (or more dismal, depending on one’s point of view). Maybe Dr. McPherson might get a tenured faculty position at that school? Not to imply that he will in any way be proud of it.
September 5th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
It could have been worse at Fukushima – Arnie Gunderson speaks
http://fairewinds.com/content/it-could-have-been-worse
How many times do we get lucky?
September 5th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Arctic collapse dramatically increases global warming news
03 September 2012
Parts of Arctic Siberia are releasing 10 more carbon into the atmosphere than previously thought, a University of Manchester scientist and an international team of researchers have found.
Writing in Nature, the scientists, led by Stockholm University, discovered that much more greenhouse gas is being released into the atmosphere than previously calculated, from and ancient an large carbon pool held in a permafrost along the 7,000km desolate coast of northernmost Siberian Arctic – dramatically increasing global warming.
Rest at http://www.domain-b.com/environment/20120903_dramatically_oneView.html
September 5th, 2012 at 2:05 pm
But wouldn’t it be ironic after worrying about peak oil, solar flares, grid failure, climate change – if an asteroid slipped in behind Mars and did us in
From spaceweather.com
NEAR-EARTH ASTEROID: A relatively large asteroid, just discovered on August 28th, will fly past the Earth-Moon system on Sept 14th only 2.8 million km (7.4 lunar distances) away. 2012 QG42 is about as wide as three football fields and comes to us from just beyond the orbit of Mars. Astronomers who are now monitoring the space rock say it shines about as brightly as a 15th magnitude star. [3D orbit] [ephemeris]
September 5th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Wow, reading about the Indian blackouts was shocking but not as much as reading the Automatic Earth article (thanks BC Nurse Prof). I kept thinking, “Boy, those folks are in deep trouble.” Then, Shazam! The light went on (pun not intended). All my records (internet shopping, health, insurance, computer help, dog only know what else [electronic banking, taxes(?), Social Security (?)]) seemed to be massaged and stored in electronics hooked to the Indian grid. You have to love that plan of off-shoring our services to the lowest bidder.
Michael Irving
September 5th, 2012 at 2:23 pm
Interviewed by Helen Caldicott, Arnie Gunderson says triage on Fukushima will be complete on Fukushima in 2015 or 2016. Does anybody really believe we’ll be using heavy machinery and intergovernmental cooperation to work on nuclear power plants in 2015 or 2016?
September 5th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
I have an off the subject report based on some discoveries today.
First, the hugelkultur spud bed worked (somewhat). Those parts of the bed closest to the logs produced much bigger spuds. It was, of course, not the best hugelkultur bed (two rows of semi-rotted firewood blocks about 8” in diameter, hardware cloth underneath, with the whole bed about 25 feet long) but at least it proved the case to me enough that it is worth trying again next year.
Second, my daughter discovered today that the bottom foot of a straw bale (barley) that her son had been using for archery practice, and that had been soaked during the spring rains, is still wet. We have not had any rain since July 13.
Third, she was tearing apart a brush pile we’d made this spring of mostly green fir branches (with needles attached). The bottom foot of the pile is quite damp (no water added).
Fourth, I have a volunteer squash (zucchini maybe?) that’s growing out of an unused part of last year’s compost pile (about 8” deep). I’ve watered it once this summer and it looks great and is beginning to set fruit (it started way late).
All of these seem to be pointing to the idea that water conservation methods (hugelkultur/heavy mulch) are a great idea in times of water scarcity.
Fifth, my squash plants, after stopping production for a month, have suddenly started setting fruit again. I’ve been irrigating religiously throughout that period. The difference is that during the hiatus the temperature was in the 90s every day. For the last week+ it has dropped back into the low 80s. I think that, at least in my garden, temperatures over 90 degrees retard the development of new squash fruits. Of course this is only a guess on my part, but it does fit. During the same week+ the lows have been between 30 and 38°F, but I doubt that is what is driving fruiting of a Mesoamerican plant.
There you have it.
Michael Irving
September 5th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Michael, thank you for those observations. I plan to build some hugelkultur beds as well, and I already have a tiny one for herbs. It is interesting that your potato hugel did as well as it did.
Have you read Toby Hemenway’s Gaia’s Garden? If not, he discusses the use of deep mulch as one method to conserve moisture (based on Ruth Stout’s book). He had a comical story about how he at first was a reluctant mulcher (worried about slugs, etc.), but once he finally bit the bullet, he was amazed at how well it worked. Of course, there are many more techniques to conserve moisture, and some of them Guy has illustrated in a few of his videos.
We,too, noticed a drop off in productivity of our squash plants, and so did many of my friends, during the hot spell. Our production is starting to pick up, too. If you are growing broccoli, how is it doing?
I’m pretty sure you have already found this site, but have you been to Paul Wheaton’s Permies.com? For everyone interested in a permaculture way to grow food and work as best we can with Nature (and each other), this is a site that is a wealth of information.
September 5th, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Guy, Arnie is a great source for information about Fukushima but doesn’t seem to let his horizons stretch beyond that. Not unusual these days. Few can see the whole picture and of course the whole picture is so devastating that those who could, don’t. I agree with you, by 2015 we will probably just be seeing all the nuclear power plants going Fukushima without anyone to tend them at all. Nice future eh?
September 5th, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Regarding the classic capitalist model for developed economies it appears that there are two main ways for profit to come good in such economies.
The fist in times of economic growth, expanding production is the way to go. There is largess to go around and the post World Oil War II boom is a typical example, made possible from the spoils of Oil. Most of readers know this.
Second is efficiency in labour and production. Efficiency is the same as economic growth in the sense that production increases with far less capital outlay than would be needed otherwise to get the return.
In times of bust or what is now called ‘economic contraction’, ‘recession’ or ‘depression’, in an attempt to get stable returns efficiency is squeezed to breaking point, by way of suppressing wages, letting go of worker conditions and entitlements, and breaking industrial agreements wholesale. Offshoring to lower wage labour forces not only has moved dirty pollution to other countries, but has been the method to keep the prifit, and economic growth continuing for the last 2 decades.
My guess is that since the peak oil time line of 2005-2008 has been achieved, the pipeline is sputtering and no growth in real terms is coming down the pipe. The large variability in sectors in the world economy notwithstanding, what we are seeing, and it will increase very fast from now on, is the drawing back and slashing of all worker entitlments,(many of which are simply not paid in the USA and pending legal challenges from ordinary workers…?), letting go of more and more ancilliary employment, like cleaners, and infrastructure fixers,(which are not really discretionary), and longer days and more days of work, as posted by Morocco Bama, with respect to Greece for now.
Some were bagging Richard Heinberg on earlier blogs. I would point out that his book, ‘The Party’s Over’, gets the message accross with just the title. That is worth fifteen obscure but accurate books of the kind IMO. Heinberg bangs on about the uninspected softer collapse can come from reducing the demand side of fosssil fuels, however, Tim Jackson, in his book, ‘Prosperity Without Growth’ shows that the existing market capitism scenario is drivern by economic growth, EG, through derivatives and bonds etc. Easing up on EG as is the looming reality without a collapse will necessitate well nigh slavery as Morocco Bama predicts, not from wishing for it I presume, however.
As I have put up before, the worst case is a drawn out decline where degradation of a bankrupt way of life gets to dominate everywhere, including the Biosphere. A rapid collapse will lose perhaps all the limbs of the patient, but maybe the main body will survive.
If banks fail first, then it will run down much quicker.
September 5th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
“Few can see the whole picture and of course the whole picture is so devastating that those who could, don’t. I agree with you, by 2015 we will probably just be seeing all the nuclear power plants going Fukushima without anyone to tend them at all. Nice future eh?”
Agreed that this might be the case. Until then, chop wood, carry water, and prepare as best we can for an uncertain future, because none of knows with absolute certainty what is coming down the pike and when. Something will be left out of the preparations, I know.
September 5th, 2012 at 6:58 pm
I should add to this statement :
‘…the worst case is a drawn out decline where degradation of a bankrupt way of life gets to dominate everywhere….’
…that those slavey conditions have been the dominant way of life in the so called ‘developing countries’ and zones of exploitation by Empire for many centuries in our past. It will merely be the wholesale spreading of the blanket wider and wider, as is evident from the 1% vs 99% wealth distribution.
We should really stop calling them ‘Developing Countries’, and just settle for ccloser to an updated reality term like:
Slave Labour Countries.
That is what they have been for so long anyway.
September 5th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
Few can see the whole picture and of course the whole picture is so devastating that those who could, don’t.
One thing or another coming the way of our society, no matter which direction we look. Jim Kunstler’s title for his blog, “Clusterf**k Nation” could be modified to “Clusterf**k World” as a subtitle for “Nature Bats Last”.
September 5th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
By the way, Kathy C, I know you are far ahead of me in those preparations. Some of us woke up belatedly (me).
Michael Irving, I wanted to tell you that the salamanders in my “failed ponds” are doing just fine. Apparently, there are some types that lay their eggs in ponds whose larvae remain there for about a year. I’m not sure what type I have, but a few remain. And, from a few threads back, you noted, and I got a giggle from, that apparently the failure of the ponds was in the eye of the beholder (me). You are so correct, and I’m glad I discovered the critters before I drained the ponds.
The other thing I’ve never seen in my yard before are western skinks. We’ve seen several of them now. Do you have frogs/toads?
September 5th, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Amen, Robin
September 5th, 2012 at 7:21 pm
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Oh Jesus, now it’s the electric grids!
So many ways, which one will win the bid?
There are others
Think Duck & Cover
What on Earth do we tell the kids?
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September 5th, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Michael,
“I think that, at least in my garden, temperatures over 90 degrees retard the development of new squash”
Almost everything was “retarded” in my garden this year – especially by that heat. The peas – 5 kinds – were all stunted in both vine growth and flowering and pea product quality. The few exceptions – a couple pole beans that came up like weeds from last year’s dropped seed that wintered in the ground did well, and two odd squash from the compost pile look incredible. Apple tree blooms croaked with the spring’s warm/frost combo, tomatoes, peas,etc. all bloomed very late and erratic – everything except the compost squash seemed to have odd flowering times this year, late and jerky? I wonder what the insects thought ; ).
The squash I watched every day, fairly closely. Most of the time during the weeks of unusually high heat the squash hung tough in that compost pile. It spills out onto the “lawn” and was the only green thing present most of the summer.
In the >90s heat and in direct sunlight the giant leaves on the squash always looked like limp elephant ears. The stems stood tall, above the grass, but the leaves were completely limp, so they were conserving water big time. At these times most other things looked a little “in shock”.
But if a 15 minute cloud-burst hit in that heat, the leaves quickly inflated into giant stiff “cups” to catch water for their stem-roots below – and they stayed that way after the brief rain and until the shade passed and the sun hit them again, then they would wilt again – in a row, one at a time down the vine. Incredible.
Similar in the early mornings and evenings – you could see the leaves deflate/inflate in a row down a vine as the sun rose and set. My wife is tired of hearing the daily reports about “those damned squash” ; )
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About education – I agree its too late to “Educate the Public.” We do not have enough generations for education to work. The media and educational institutions are a product of our culture, and our culture is – simply put – very ill. Terminally ill. And it is suffering Multiple Mass Delusions.
Still, two of my favorite people carry on the struggle to promote science education :
Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss
Discussion focus was on Science education, but the discussion also covered religion, physics, evolution and more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLctxRf7duU&feature=relmfu
(Good luck gentlemen !!! But please glance outside the Ivory Tower windows once in a while to make sure the heathens are not storming the gates
September 5th, 2012 at 10:47 pm
Kathy C Says:
September 5th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
It could have been worse at Fukushima – Arnie Gunderson speaks
http://fairewinds.com/content/it-could-have-been-worse
How many times do we get lucky?
Well, it’s not over. The spent fuel pool at Unit 4 is severely damaged, any mid-size quake could provide the final blow, and then the pool goes critical, draws the rest of the complex into the cauldron, and then we’re in unchartered waters.
But good point you make later about the unlikelihood of plants being taken care of in 2015-2016. I was amazed to hear Bill Clinton tonight still talking about restoring “growth” and increasing energy supplies, and even more, to see a huge audience totally buy into such stuff.
September 6th, 2012 at 2:45 am
Jeff, Yes, it is far from over at Fukushima, but as Arnie notes just the fact that it happened on a weekday saved us from worse. There were far more workers there than on a weekend or evening, and those workers – he calls them heroes – were one very important part of why we didn’t have more plants go Fukushima. There were actually 14 plants along the coast that were affected by the Tsunami and earthquake.
Judy, I don’t know that I am ahead in preps. I started early but in the meantime my body couldn’t keep up. However I do wash our clothes by hand with a James Hand Washer and wringer – about 10 years now. I wonder how many others are washing by hand = the handle on the washer broke twice so I really just use the washer as a tub and bought a plunger – I would recommend to others a double tub, plunger and washboard. BUT I am not making my own soap. And the thought of pumping the water from the hand pump well in order to wash is daunting. One needs to make preps for using wash water multiple times before putting it in the garden – for instance rinse water could become bath water.
I wonder if anyone is making their own oil for cooking. It is not necessary of course one can boil stuff. But people like using oil. As for me I expect the Klan or the religious nuts or the robbers to save me the trouble of trying to add a few years survival in a world in chaos. A few extra years means less and less the closer you get to a natural end.
Navid, last year the heat stopped my beans and field peas from gilding. Did better this year as it was so warm in March I put most of my garden in mid March. Funny to have the freezer mostly full in June and wonder what you are going to do the rest of the season other than water perennials. But late rains and some respite from the heat are giving me a bumper crop of field peas and bringing back enough green beans for fresh eating. All in all this has been a better garden year than last.
September 6th, 2012 at 2:47 am
Not that it will matter by 2030 BUT –
Saudi Arabia will Cease to be an Oil Exporter by 2030: Report:
Saudi Oil Well Dries Up
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
September 05, 2012 “The Telegraph” – - If Citigroup is right, Saudi Arabia will cease to be an oil exporter by 2030, far sooner than previously thought.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100019812/saudi-oil-well-dries-up/
September 6th, 2012 at 3:12 am
Look up now, near the sun. The reset button has been pushed. There are none so blind as those that will not look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WGybUmFw4A
September 6th, 2012 at 4:35 am
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Alright, we need to clear the air a bit, because I see things are slipping back into that mode of “all we can do is prepare.” And yet, some of the same people who are saying this are also espousing, quite vehemently and passionately, that it’s all over this year, or the next, and certainly by 2015-2016. It is not a consensus here amongst the commentators, that the appropriate action in the midst of this unfolding catastrophe is to “chop wood and carry water.” However, it seems that those who do say that imply that that is the consensus, and then they go on to adamantly assert that nothing matters, it’s all going to hell anyway….and these same people are particularly intense towards those who aren’t carrying water and chopping wood, but are envisioning a world that may rise after this one and moving towards it, even if it is improbable. Now, I know of someone who implied on another thread that my mindset about rules was selfishly motivated and that I was only concerned about the rules because of how they inhibited me from doing what I wanted to do, but who’s the selfish one when you get right down to it? It’s obvious from many of the “carry water and chop wood” crowd that they hate this world, and yet they’re making preparations to survive in this world, and to continue it with rules and all. My point is, if you really believe it’s Light’s Out by the end of this year, and certainly by 2015, then how the hell can you say “chop wood and carry water” so confidently and smugly? I’m not trying to ruffle feathers with this observation. I have put myself to this very same challenge many times over as it relates to this, so I’m not being hypocritical about it, at least not consciously. But, everyone should do the same, imo, meaning everyone needs to be honest with themselves, and in the least, don’t pretend that what they’re doing is the right and only thing to do in this situation.
In regards to the article, who is the intended audience? If it’s this crowd, to include me, it’s preaching to the choir. If it’s to any other crowd, it will never be processed and considered. Once again, we see a Reformationist approach, and I’m sorry, as I’ve said before, I’m not on board with reforming something that cannot be reformed. This System is doing what it was designed/intended to do. You don’t reform it, and you don’t bargain with it. This article is an example of someone who is in Stage 3 of the Grief cycle. Perhaps what we need to do is help Pepper navigate through the remaining stages, and then she can decide whether Paul’s sixth stage is legitimate, or not. But certainly, I don’t want to regress back to Stage 3 with her. That’s counterproductive and dishonest.
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September 6th, 2012 at 6:32 am
Morocco Bama
You ask for some clear self reflection on some apparently incommensurable dicta of how ‘to be’, given the dire warnings, and mounting evidence.
I think many are yet to see the clearly definative change properly congealed into a collapse. If it was so, many would know which eggs to keep and eat, or hatch, whatever mataphore applies.
Guy refuses to predict actual dates for an end to BAU, and I’m in agreement for many reasons.
I am in a position of being a lone crazy making motions in many directions to keep some irons in the fire, and so I can pick the ones that fit the next stage, however it goes. That does not include weopons like firearms etc, BTW. I can’t see a better risk averse strategy for ‘our’ situation, and I am speaking as someone who has done some pretty out of the box things in different stages of life, so I can ‘do’ unacceptable thing by the normal FUBARed social norms.
I get you are not going to revive a dead cat, so what is your best approach, or is it just to get on and take it as it comes? Is alcahol pert of your solution? It could be.
I feel I and some dependent children will need some food sometime, and I figure I can’t grow it all, but I am getting started, on living without the usual centralised energy and materials, developing scavenging skills and local knowledge about where discards from BAU are to be found, etc.
Many have their own strategies, and how else can it be?
Guy’s response is to rely on his/their version of agrarian anarchy, which seems like a plan with some drawbacks like others, but the strengths are well defined and there is a shared destiny and responsibility.
Being very honest I think if I had no family responsibilities or ties I would be seeking out some situation such as Guy describes. MY kids are too meshed in their world to take my rantings seriously, so far.
My take on “chop wood and carry water” is just an exhortation to be practical with every action and decision, and therein lies the problems – when it is still unclear how the ripping will start and move, it is crazy to jump too far too early with some actions. For some people it is a financial question, others social, and yet others it is a geographical one, or some combinations.
I only have one question, what are you doing? Is there a strategy everyone else has missed. Or is it pointless to do anything to feel better able to cope? Please share it here.
September 6th, 2012 at 6:43 am
An assessment of Oil’s rise since the 1970′s.
‘Oil’s Rising Baseline’
http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/09/oils-rising-baseline.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=oils-rising-baseline
An Excerpt:
‘History says that another baseline jump of 300% or 400% is absolutely possible – even likely. A new oil-price bottom of $200 to $300 per barrel would present a nasty hurdle for the world’s economies… but if you can’t beat them, join them. Oil companies shouldn’t be the only ones that benefit from oil’s rising baseline.’
September 6th, 2012 at 6:44 am
MB “Alright, we need to clear the air a bit,”
You wouldn’t be postulating a rule now would you? The word
Need
verb (used without object)
9.
to be under an obligation (used as an auxiliary, typically in an interrogative or in a negative statement, and followed by infinitive, in certain cases without to;
Of course you might have a different definition of the verb need, if so you might want to let us know so we won’t hold you to a dictionary definition. But in context it sounds like you are preaching to us on how we should be.
September 6th, 2012 at 6:58 am
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I only have one question, what are you doing? Is there a strategy everyone else has missed. Or is it pointless to do anything to feel better able to cope? Please share it here.
OzMan, thanks for the honest response. I think I’ve made it clear many times what I’m doing, but I have to say, I don’t like the question. I feel it’s condescending, even if that wasn’t your intent. Is it a requirement that I have to be doing something? I have seen this question posed in other forums, and it’s not really a question when it’s raised, it’s an indictment, and what the questioner implies is “well, at least I’m doing something, so you have no right, or no business, commenting on this.” Once again, I’m not saying that was your intention, so don’t take it personal.
I understand what Guy is doing. He is living in a way that he envisions a new world, if it were possible, and he does it knowing such a new world is improbable. So, that’s similar to what I’m doing in my life, meaning moving out of the current world and towards an envisioned world, and taking steps to enable that new world, however improbable. However, here’s the catch. I can’t speak for Guy, but I would never describe what I’m doing as preparing for what is coming, and yet, there are others here who have said that is what they are doing, and I think that distinguishes them from Guy, and from me. You can’t prepare for the multiple permutations that can, and will, befall us, for the reasons you stated in your honest response. I would think your best bet of riding the collapse out, to the extent that’s possible, is to not put too many eggs in any basket, or no eggs in any baskets, and hone your ability to remain reflexive, spontaneous, adaptive and improvisational. It could turn out that the way to ride out the collapse, if you’re so inclined to want to survive it to see the seeds of a new world planted and perhaps sprout, if that’s possible, is to be nomadic, and if that’s the case, then those skills and that mindset I just mentioned, would do you well. However, if you have dug in deep, and you have so much invested in your gardens and orchards, it could be a liability for you, since the zeitgeist that presents may not select for that.
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September 6th, 2012 at 7:09 am
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But in context it sounds like you are preaching to us on how we should be.
Who’s us? I would never tell you how you need to be, and I’m not sure how you could derive that from the statement I made. All I asked was let us, us meaning everyone who posts here and/or reads here, be honest with ourselves and others. It’s a contradiction to emphatically, and fervently, say it’s all over for humans, and over very soon, and then in the same breath say “prepare.” Prepare for what, exactly? If you mean prepare yourself mentally and emotionally for your demise, then yes, I agree, that’s great advice that everyone would be prudent to undertake, but if prepare means “chop wood and carry water,” then to me, it makes no sense. I’m not telling you to do it or not do it, that’s your call, but considering everything else you’re saying, it can’t be called preparing in any logical sense. But hey, don’t let me stop you from calling it that, if that’s what you want to call it.
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September 6th, 2012 at 7:13 am
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“Need”, in the context that I used it is a figure of speech, Kathy C, and not the literal interpretation you provided. You’re intelligent enough to know that, and so I’ll take it you’re just being coy. My statement is the same thing as saying “can we analyze what is being said here, and bring some honest clarity to the discussion.” Of course, if you are tainted in your perspective, and have a negative perception of who said it, I can see why you would interpret it as you have.
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September 6th, 2012 at 7:53 am
Kathy,
After some of your posts about your garden and water situation this summer, it is very good to hear you’re now getting a bumper crop of peas and late beans! Thank Dog for brief respites in drought and heat.
September 6th, 2012 at 8:12 am
With respect to Saudi Arabia being an oil IMporter by 2030. I’m sure most here would agree that’s laughable and the whole premise is absurd. Assuming business as usual, who in the world would KSA buy from? If they are the largest exporter today, that would mean that all of that oil would have to be replaced on the world market, AND there would still need to be some leftover for KSA to purchase. If even by some flight of fantasy that would be possible, how would they pay for that oil? Sure they have lots of money now, but as we know, that’s a fleeting situation when you’re essentially paying off your people to keep them from revolution, not to mention importing the bulk of your food.
Of course, based on everything happening today with climate, social unrest, etc., the likelihood that there is even an economy, much less a working government in KSA by 2030 is highly improbable.
Frankly, I don’t know how humans will even be able to live in that region by 2030 given the elevated temperatures anticipated there by then, particularly when you consider that they will almost certainly be operating without any electricity and/or fossil fuels.
September 6th, 2012 at 8:38 am
Morocco Bama,
For me personally, “preparing” has changed with my understanding of what’s unfolding. When I became aware of climate change a’la Al Gore, I began looking for ways to reduce my carbon footprint, be more efficient, buying solar cells, etc. Then, when I became aware of peak oil and all it’s implications, I began preparing for a low-energy world, thinking that things would go on pretty much as before but without a lot of the “stuff” and conveniences we have currently. As all the pieces of the puzzle began to come together (climate change, resource depletion, overpopulation, etc.) and massive die-off became more clear to me, the emphasis behind my preparations changed yet again even if the actual preparations didn’t. Now, as it seems that there will likely be near-term human extinction, my preparations continue on for what life I have left, but my thoughts are much more self-centered.
In other words, I am preparing to survive as long as I can even while things go down the shitter. I know that I will die someday – could be today, could be in 20-30 years. In the meantime, I’m going to continue to live each day as if it was my last while not ignoring that it probably won’t be.
Another thing that I remind myself is that collapse is happening already. It is coming in fits and starts and as with all changes on a massive scale, it will pick up speed slowly but surely. I have to be prepared to survive the mini-collapses occurring along the way to total collapse. Am I prepared for the power to be off for a week? A month? What would I do if gas goes to $8 a gallon? How will I and my employees survive financially if the U.S. government stops making medicaid and medicare payments? Do I have enough water stored if this drought causes wells to go dry? If I can’t get seed corn next year, what will I feed my chickens and goats? On and on it goes.
Admittedly, it would easier if we knew a planet-sized asteroid was going to take us out on such and such a day and there was no way any life would survive. Then we could all just party on until our demise. Our situation is more problematic. We know we’re toast, we just don’t know when or how long it will take for the bread to burn. So what to do in the meantime? Prepare? To each his or her own, I guess.
September 6th, 2012 at 8:42 am
OzMan: “My take on “chop wood and carry water” is just an exhortation to be practical with every action and decision, and therein lies the problems – when it is still unclear how the ripping will start and move, it is crazy to jump too far too early with some actions. For some people it is a financial question, others social, and yet others it is a geographical one, or some combinations.”
Exactly. It means different things to different people. For me, it’s just a reminder to live my life as best I can and to take joy in simple things. That’s what I’m doing.
I’m sure this conversation will continue to go where it wants to go, both forward AND backward, unless our gracious host feels the need to step in to change the direction.
KathyC, I’m not washing my clothes by hand yet, but when my dryer gave up the ghost far too soon after I purchased it, I’ve been either drying outside or hanging things inside in the winter. I live in the city and so am on city water. I have planned for emergencies, though.
September 6th, 2012 at 9:03 am
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TRDH, thank you for your honest response.
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September 6th, 2012 at 9:24 am
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Further about the “doing” concept. Many of the Liberal/Progressive blogs will use it to dismiss honest inquiry and/or constructive analysis, especially the Activists. Eventually, the discussion results in “yeah, well, what are you doing?” As if that’s an argument, or a valid rationalization. It’s not a givens (nod to Pepper) that Doing something is the right approach. As an example, I’ve mentioned in another thread about the technological noose we have around our necks. I showed the ending scene from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly to illustrate the metaphor. Each technological fix requires several more technological fixes to fix the problems it’s created and with each iteration of fixes, the implications noose gets tighter and tighter, and that predicament is predicated on this concept of “I/we have to do something.” So no, doing something is not a superior position, and in fact, it can be just the opposite, so for those who levy that question in an arrogant way, it’s absurdly ironic. OzMan, to reiterate, I’m not saying you did, but for certain, on other forums, people have, so I thought I would just posit that observation. Maybe that’s how Civilization got underway…maybe it was the spark. Maybe a tribe was threatened with a crisis, and someone in the tribe said “we have to do something.” And, after much cajoling and persuasion, this person convinced the tribe that planting crops would help them get through the crisis, and indeed, it may have worked….in the short-term, but what it did was create a Merry-Go-Round of one fix after another from thereon. And, here we are, at the end of that rope, and we still get “we have to do something, and if you’re not doing something, you’re a dirty rotten bastard who should keep their mouth shut and go back to their cave where they belong.” Maybe it’s time for doing nothing, for a change.
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September 6th, 2012 at 9:40 am
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Listen all, we have to do something
The thought of not, is just too crushing
And so you do
But did you construe
That to do, can undermine what you were intending?
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September 6th, 2012 at 10:06 am
TRDH, Your post resonates with me. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I’ve already experienced a few mini-collapses and have had to adapt. Things are a lot simpler, though, and I welcome that simplicity.
You said: “Admittedly, it would easier if we knew a planet-sized asteroid was going to take us out on such and such a day and there was no way any life would survive. Then we could all just party on until our demise. Our situation is more problematic. We know we’re toast, we just don’t know when or how long it will take for the bread to burn. So what to do in the meantime? Prepare? To each his or her own, I guess”
This is something I talk about quite a bit with my friends who are on the same page. We don’t know when, where, or how we’ll meet the Grim Reaper, but depending on the circumstances, the Reaper might not be so grim after all. I know I cannot be prepared for all eventualities, so I just continue to do what I can to hone skills that will be useful in at least some of the circumstances. A key thing for me, though, is that I enjoy what I’m doing. I’m going to go anyway, so why waste time doing something I don’t enjoy?
In another post, you mentioned that your “beloved” Buffalo River had run dry due to the drought. I cannot remember if I commented on that or not, but I have many fond memories of canoeing on the Buffalo. It is so beautiful, and I was saddened to hear this. Much more sadness in my future, I’m afraid.
September 6th, 2012 at 10:08 am
Fortunately, no KKK where I live… and my neighbours get a positive mention in the national press, and support from the local gvt.the Welsh Assembly.
On the northern edge of the Preseli Hills, set against the slopes of Carn Ingli – or Mountain of Angels – stands a 19th-century smallholding. In one direction, unspoilt hills roll on for miles; in the other, forested land stretches as far as the eye can see. Brithdir Mawr’s founding members bought this spot as a ruin back in 1994 and have since restored the main residence, a rambling grey-stone farmhouse, to its former glory. Members either live here or in one of the outhouses set across 80 acres of lush countryside and unspoilt woodland, from which a small river leads to the sea about a mile and a half away.
There are goats, ducks and chickens moseying around the site today, taking a break from producing enough eggs, milk and cheese to supply the 11 adults and four children who live here. This morning, some residents are busy baking bread and making gooseberry jam and chutney. There are no fridges or freezers, so it’s all stored in a cool room heaving with shelf after shelf of jars.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/easy-living-the-truth-about-modern-communes-2020668.html
September 6th, 2012 at 10:20 am
Judy,
Thanks for the feedback. I have tried deep mulch before and had good results but for whatever reason got away from it (it may have had something to do with perceived neatness in my wife’s eyes). Anyway, the best results we every had with corn was with a deep rotted alfalfa hay mulch.
As Arthur Noll reminded us in the last NBL post, most organic gardeners are importing material into their garden. His assessment is that importation is at the expense and impoverishment of the outside source. I think that can be over done. For example, even here farmers get three cuttings of alfalfa (with irrigation). Probably one cutting returned to the soil would keep the land fertile. Also, rotten hay is spoiled hay that has been wetted over the winter by exposure to the elements. Most farmers see this hay as waste and often burn it. Arthur does have it right that fossil fuels are being used to produce that hay in the first place (replanting every six years, swathing, baling, hauling, etc.). In any case, I am trying to produce as much mulching material and composting material here on the home place as I can but I am not likely to turn down a good source when it becomes available (you know, reuse/repair/recycle).
Following up on that thought, biointensive methods include growing nutrients on site via rotation of beds, sheet mulching/green manure, and composting. I’m going out today to plant compost mix into the beds my soup beans just came out of.
And one more thing about the hugelkultur bed. This is totally unsubstantiated but in my somewhat alkaline soil, prone to scab in potatoes, the spuds closest to the logs were completely scab free. Of course I tried some new varieties and always look for scab resistant varieties but I was happy with it. The varieties Warba and Yukon Gem look especially good. But, there could be some other reason. It’s just something to look at in the future.
Michael Irving
September 6th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Michael, thanks for mentioning the hugelkultur bed. I had not heard of that technique before so did a bit of reading on it. I think I’ll give it a try. If there’s one thing I have plenty of, it’s trees. After the ice storm 3 years ago, we also have lots of rotting wood. It will be an interesting experiment.
September 6th, 2012 at 10:41 am
Judy, according to the Buffalo River page by the USGS there are still quite a few spots on the river marked as “very low”. We have received some rain in recent weeks, first with Isaac and then scattered thunderstorms since. So, I’m sure the water is flowing now but obviously not like it does usually.
September 6th, 2012 at 10:49 am
Michael, I do a mulched garden, never as mulched as I want. But I use leaves, preferrably pecan leaves – while we have plenty of leaves on the property I don’t like raking or depriving the soil around the trees so I get the stuff the people in town bag. Sure it uses fossil fuel to get there but for now I still buy groceries. I built a cage to go on the back of my truck – my carpentry is rough but it works. Baffles people to see a topless cage. I have a stretchy cargo net to throw over top when full so the bags don’t fly off on the way home. As I make my rounds I find discarded 5 gal buckets, discarded chairs (makeshift roosts in some of our pens for breeding etc), firewood, and other interesting stuff. I can’t help it if some people like throwing away their soil fertility – they are only growing lawn anyway.
Works pretty good – I probably have a larger population of slugs in the spring but wood ashes around seedlings is a good deterrent.
September 6th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Judy, hanging out clothes instead of a dryer is good on many fronts – they smell so fresh. But the switch from dryer to clothesline is worlds easier than the switch from washer to hand washing. BUT it encourages one to wash less often and one finds that washing all the time was not all that necessary after all
September 6th, 2012 at 11:11 am
MB you wrote “All I asked was let us, us meaning everyone who posts here and/or reads here, be honest with ourselves and others. It’s a contradiction to emphatically, and fervently, say it’s all over for humans, and over very soon, and then in the same breath say “prepare.” Prepare for what, exactly? ”
First I think that most of us here have a much higher level of self honesty than most in the first world.
It is NOT at all a contradiction to say it is all over for humans and then to say prepare. Why, because “all over” for humans is still somewhat in the future – the most dire for human extinction that I have seen is 2050. Since we don’t know exactly when and how collapse will take place we can each make whatever preparations we choose. One of my preps is a stockpile of booze. I don’t currently drink, but I may want to in the future. If I don’t choose self exit then I have no idea how long until someone or something else manages my exit. Thus I might also want to trade booze for other items, or use it to incapacitate some raider. There is no contradiction in my booze stockpile with my belief that humans are going to go extinct.
People who have been told they have 6 mos to live often plan trips if they are able to go see something they have wanted to see. They make living wills, they ask family to come to visit. “All over” and making plans does not necessarily imply contradiction.
September 6th, 2012 at 11:22 am
It is not a consensus here amongst the commentators, that the appropriate action in the midst of this unfolding catastrophe is to “chop wood and carry water.”
The “chop wood and carry water” phrase does not promote a specific genre of action. It refers to the appropriateness of the action to the physical and social milieu, as well as the appropriate manner/attitude of acting in accordance with the mental/emotional milieu of the actor.
and these same people are particularly intense towards those who aren’t carrying water and chopping wood, but are envisioning a world that may rise after this one and moving towards it, even if it is improbable.
It is the attitude with which the action is performed that matters.
“Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water”. In the latter state the action is non-volitional action, performed without a sense of agency. It is acting without any trace of the perception that “I am the one who is chopping wood; I am the one who is carrying water”. The Chinese term for it is “wu wei”, and the Sanskrit term is “prabhapatitam karyam”: “falling into action”.
But, everyone should do the same, imo, meaning everyone needs to be honest with themselves, and in the least, don’t pretend that what they’re doing is the right and only thing to do in this situation.
The very use of the term “chop wood and carry water” implies that understanding.
For a drone pilot:
Before enlightenment, acquire target, “neutralise” target; after enlightenment, acquire target, “neutralise” target.
For a blue-costumed policeman:
Before enlightenment, pepper spray, fire tasers; after enlightenment, pepper spray, fire tasers.
For a Wall Street Bankster:
Before enlightenment, swindle billions, pocket millions; after enlightenment, swindle billions, pocket millions.
For many folks on the Titanic after it hit the iceberg:
Before enlightenment, sip drinks, listen to music; after enlightenment, sip drinks, listen to music.
For other folks on the Titanic at the same time:
Before enlightenment, don life preservers, board lifeboats; after enlightenment, don life preservers, board lifeboats.
My take on “chop wood and carry water” is just an exhortation to be practical with every action and decision, and therein lies the problems –
Indeed. Not only is one man’s meat is another man’s poison, making consensus on what is “practical” sometimes impossible, but it is an understanding rather than an exhortation.
I only have one question, what are you doing?
Sipping drinks (non-alcololic), browsing NBL and other doomsayer sites.
If you mean prepare yourself mentally and emotionally for your demise, then yes, I agree, that’s great advice that everyone would be prudent to undertake, but if prepare means “chop wood and carry water,” then to me, it makes no sense.
Those who can “chop wood and carry water” as non-volitional action have also shed the sense of “I”, of the individual self. They have died the Great Death. If they are still alive in a physical sense, there still is a little death for the body, but they will have no perception of “I am the one who is dying”.
For those who act in the enlightened manner, there is no “sixth” stage (or for that matter, any other stage) of grief: there is neither perceived recipient, nor perceived receiving of the “gift”.
September 6th, 2012 at 11:33 am
Clarification:
My take on “chop wood and carry water” is just an exhortation to be practical with every action and decision, and therein lies the problems –
Indeed. It is an understanding rather than an exhortation. One man’s meat is another man’s poison, making consensus on what is “practical” sometimes impossible.
September 6th, 2012 at 11:44 am
If ‘chop wood, carry water’ is being used in the zen sense, (from which I believe it derives) I’d say it means something like this : At the heart of each moment lies eternity, ( for want of a better term, maybe nirvikalpa samadhi ) and eternity doesn’t change or move, even though the moments flow and everything else changes. So, what does a person who understands this do ? They chop wood, and carry water. In other words, they attend to whatever needs to be done. The past has gone forever, the future has not arrived, there is only this, this very moment, filled with immense potential…
Remaining at the still point at the exact centre of the spinning wheel, ( of samsara ) which does not move, nirvana, thus nirvana and samsara are one and the same…
September 6th, 2012 at 11:45 am
I’ve been either drying outside or hanging things inside in the winter.
One suggestion for those who hang-dry clothes: turn them inside-out before hanging. The results are much better.
September 6th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Ya’ll do listen the the Caldicott/Gunderson interview Guy posted http://ifyoulovethisplanet.org/?p=6397 Helen pushes him and he says more than I have ever heard him say on the situation at Fukushima and at one point believe it or not leaves Helen speechless – not for long of course, Helen Caldicott speechless is a contradiction in terms.
September 6th, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Remaining at the still point at the exact centre of the spinning wheel, ( of samsara ) which does not move, nirvana, thus nirvana and samsara are one and the same…
There is no spinning wheel, no still point, no nirvana, no samsara. The aware ones grok this. Many a time has it been said in the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures: “There is no bondage and no liberation”, there is a certain choir to whom it does not have to be preached.
September 6th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
We don’t know when, where, or how we’ll meet the Grim Reaper, but depending on the circumstances, the Reaper might not be so grim after all.
If the “I” has died the Great Death, there is no one to meet the Grim Reaper when it comes for the body.
September 6th, 2012 at 12:31 pm
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Doesn’t radiation kill bacteria? If all the nuclear reactors go Fukushima by 2015, we won’t have to worry about doing laundry. The radiation will take care of it…..and us. But, if you’re chopping wood and carrying water per the instructions on the cereal box, it shouldn’t matter anyway, because there will be no more you (the “I” per Robin) before there is no more anyone.
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September 6th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Navid,
Now that’s interesting. As my daughter said when I read your comment to her, “WOW!” Neither one of us have grown anything other than zucchini before so we are new at it. Historically, we have about 70-75 frost-free days here so anything that takes longer needs all kinds of special care. Have you every tried to cover squash to keep it from freezing? Then we started talking about the various kinds of summer and winter squash we’re growing this year. I have one squash (forgive me, I have no idea what kind) that has a fruit that looks like a smooth, shiny skinned pumpkin that behaves like yours, all limp during the middle of the day no mater how much I water it. This is nothing as dramatic as yours but follows the same principle. All the others stay pretty much pumped up all day. One winter squash that I have been watering stays pumped all day. Another of the same variety, but grown as an experiment with little water, deflates rapidly every day, pretty much like yours.
Also, I would like you to remember that even though we have had no rain since the middle of July we had a very wet spring, unlike nearly everyone else in the country. It is also interesting to note, re global warming, that we had almost three weeks more growing season this spring (of course how do you prepare for that the first year). We planted as if we would have frost the first week of June and the third week of August and the August frost came right on schedule. Now we are in some kind of Indian summer, really cold (but no frost) in the morning and back up into the 80s every afternoon. Even here, where we have been very lucky, things are changing.
Michael Irving
September 6th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Michael and KathyC,
Thank you for the additional information. I agree with Arthur Noll’s points which you reiterated, Michael, and I am attempting to use permaculture principles in my garden. This is my first year of implementation, and I have a long way to go. I have a mountain of materials in one corner of my yard which will eventually be incorporated into the soil. There are many trees in my neighborhood, and I plan to take the leaves from people who don’t want them a la KathyC. Down the street, one neighbor has 14 hens and one very-fortunate rescued rooster. They are giving me some of the excess coop waste. What I want to do is have my own coop eventually. However, with what comes from my own yard and my neighbors’ within walking distance, I should be able to accumulate plenty of biomass. I am planting nutrient accumulator plants like comfrey not only to provide nutrients, but also to attract bees and provide even more biomass for the garden.
I am interested in water catchment systems to help with the dry periods i.e. rain barrels, swales, more hugelkultur, and maybe a small rain garden. There is a ton of work to be done, but fortunately, there is a couple who wanted to share gardening space who have helped tremendously.
Michael, I have a feeling your wife might not like my parking strip which I mulched with straw. Eventually would like to have a wood chip mulch, but I need to find an arborist who is working in the neighborhood who can drop some off for me. That does, indeed, involve fossil fuels.
I am intrigued about the potatoes closest to the wood not having scale.
September 6th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
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We evolved to keep fighting, for sure,
But, knowing there isn’t a cure,
Perhaps we will find
Unforseen change of mind
When the pain is too much to endure.
September 6th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Kathy C, my washer is a front loader, so it doesn’t use quite as much water. However, it does run of electricity. I don’t use the washer very often because most of my clothes I do wash by hand. I have noted your recommendations for a dual sink and wash board. Thank you.
Robin, I already wash my clothes inside out, so that’s how they are hung to dry (pockets, and all that.) As for my “I”, I know I don’t have to tell you this, but it’s not dead yet.
September 6th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
MB, I don’t worry about bacteria on my clothes as I’m not germ phobic; it’s the dirt I’m trying to eliminate. I would not even worry about that so much if I didn’t have to work. As you have noted, if we go Fukushima by 2015, I won’t have to worry about a job, either, for obvious reasons.
September 6th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
“There is no spinning wheel, no still point, no nirvana, no samsara. The aware ones grok this. Many a time has it been said in the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures: “There is no bondage and no liberation”, there is a certain choir to whom it does not have to be preached.”
Of course there is no spinning wheel, etc, these things are mere words, used to convey ideas, metaphors, analogies, similes, notions, depictions, so that people can communicate, otherwise there would be only silence, and a blank computer screen.
If there is no bondage and no liberation, then there are no ‘aware ones to grok’ and no choir needing or not needing preaching either.
The problem is, you’re just regurgitating Hui Neng, no dust, no mirror, no nothing…
And yet, and yet, what is this hunger in my belly, this pain in my head, this hard table leg that stubs my toe, this beautiful world that is being defiled and destroyed ?
Neither the Hindus nor the Buddhists can answer… all they can do is hide and cower behind ancient grimy tatty dead doctrines and worn out dogmas. No use to me at all !
September 6th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Judy,
Failed ponds–NO SUCH THING! Ha, I’m glad you discovered the salamanders and that they are still doing well.
ln answer to your question, yes, we have frogs and toads about in the same numbers we would expect to see. It is not a bumper year where they are everywhere. I have not seen any western skinks this year and rubber boas seem few and far between. In fact, now that you mention it I’ve only moved three snakes off the road this year (a lot less than normal), but that is hardly what you’d call a “rigorous” study of herpetology.
Michael Irving
September 6th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Has anyone here ever heard of Bill Black and his essay “The Abolition of Work?” That’s the kind of future I strive for (maybe not entirely, but the jist of it). What I don’t understand is why so much of the population can’t see it, don’t want to see it, or simply can’t see how possible it really is.
September 6th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
TRDH,
Hugelkultur may not be the answer to everything but it does bear another look. I have not figured out how to build up a waist high bed surrounding a core of logs. I don’t have very much top soil as it is so building a pile would strip the rest of the garden of soil That’s why I went to other way and buried the logs in parallel trenches on either side of the bed. If I had been smart I would have figured a better to configure my system–maybe alternating rows of planting beds and logs. Of a single bed consisting of plantings on each side of the buried logs, like this (P=plants L=logs) Read this as if you were looking down on the garden from a helicopter, viewing only a small part of one row/bed that would extend down off the bottom of the page after the “etc.” with plants growing on either side of the logs. Sorry, it is a clunky way to show it.
PLPPLP
PLPPLP
PLPPLP
PLPPLP
etc.
That might give more access to water and better utilization of the ground instead of what I did:
LPPL
LPPL
LPPL
etc.
Also, repeating Navid, check out deep mulching ala Ruth Stout. You probably already know that. Also, “Sepp Holzer’s Permaculture” is interesting.
Michael Irving
September 6th, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Yeah, i’ve read BOB Black. I like him.
http://www.zpub.com/notes/black.html
September 6th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Kathy C,
You’ll like this one. Last night my daughter WAS NOT using the humanure outside toilet, luckily. We had a huge wind storm and the top 50-60 feet of a 90 foot ponderosa pine tree blew out. It crash down with the top about 10 feet to one side of the toilet. She notes that if it had happened when she was sitting there it certainly would have helped her get her business done.
As it was she was in her cabin about 40 feet away–it shook the whole building.
Michael Irving
September 6th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Doesn’t radiation kill bacteria?
Indeed it does. But no all to the same extent.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:06 pm
Michael:
We hired a bulldozer 4 years ago to come in and dig two 25′ x 50′ trenches 2 ft deep. First layer was rotting logs, then brush, then pure manure, then rotting hay/straw, and then something that resembled compost/top soil. We have one of these holes filled, and some things do really well in there some not so good. When it is this dry anything growing in the top 6 inches doesn’t do very well. As some of you noted, with a little rain we are gettying quite a pop in growth. Even saw some blueberries starting to blossom. Surprise to them, frost free here (Fingerlakes NY) ends 9.21
Right now we are digging foundations for house and water solar arrays. There is a little moisture in the first couple of inches, and then it’s concrete the next 3.5 feet.
Everything we grow now, needs to depend on access to water. We have 3 wells, and two very healthy spring fed ponds, but moving the water around is complicated.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:08 pm
.
Judy, the early Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay Colony never washed….I mean NEVER. They were ripe for the picking. They developed ingenious, but ultimately inadequate, methods to try to mask their putrefaction. I would not have wanted to be a fly on the wall of one of their overwhelming dwellings.
.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:13 pm
As for my “I”, I know I don’t have to tell you this, but it’s not dead yet.
It is not so much a matter of its dying as becoming aware that it is a mirage, like the water seen ahead on a hot desert road.
Neither the Hindus nor the Buddhists can answer… all they can do is hide and cower behind ancient grimy tatty dead doctrines and worn out dogmas. No use to me at all !
Indeed.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
.
Robin, your link mentioned Venter, which as it so happens, is a good example of the “we have to do something” paradox. Read the following, which many here are probably already aware, and tell me how many ways this could go soooooo wrong, sooooo fast.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/magazine/craig-venters-bugs-might-save-the-world.html?pagewanted=all
In the menagerie of Craig Venter’s imagination, tiny bugs will save the world. They will be custom bugs, designer bugs — bugs that only Venter can create. He will mix them up in his private laboratory from bits and pieces of DNA, and then he will release them into the air and the water, into smokestacks and oil spills, hospitals and factories and your house.
Each of the bugs will have a mission. Some will be designed to devour things, like pollution. Others will generate food and fuel. There will be bugs to fight global warming, bugs to clean up toxic waste, bugs to manufacture medicine and diagnose disease, and they will all be driven to complete these tasks by the very fibers of their synthetic DNA.
.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
” I would not have wanted to be a fly on the wall of one of their overwhelming dwellings”
Neither would I, Morocco Bama.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
“It is not so much a matter of its dying as becoming aware that it is a mirage, like the water seen ahead on a hot desert road.”
Thank you, Robin, for your very gentle instruction. I do know this on some level, but I clearly don’t have the same awareness that you do. That’s why I said my “I” is not dead, and I was teasing you just a wee bit, too.
September 6th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
“Indeed”
You agree with me ? I was expecting some dispute, Robin Datta
September 6th, 2012 at 3:58 pm
Re washing, odours, etc, people at that time were used to living with farm animals all around, even sharing their houses with cattle and sheep to add warmth in winter, I think they were used to strong stink, we’ve had a century of advertising by industries that profit by brainwashing us about the virtue of cleanliness and instilling paranoia about dirt and disease… Not that I object to people wanting to be clean and smelling pleasant.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
.
They may have been used to stink, but they went to a lot of trouble to cover it over, so even though they were used to it, they still noticed it enough to try to hide it….but still, it wasn’t enough motivation for them to wash. The reason for not washing was because it was considered vanity before God. I would have had a tough time with oral sex if I were living in those times, I would imagine. Speaking of sleeping with sheep, have you ever seen this one?
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1091032245992
.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
You agree with me ? I was expecting some dispute, Robin Datta
The presumption is that one is in a flood, or that one has crossed the river.
As is mentioned in many places, the “enlightened” one has no use for any of the scriptures or doctrines.
By one allegory, ordinary folk go to a well to draw water: the enlightened one sits in a flood.
By another allegory, the teachings are like a raft one uses to cross a river. Once crossed, the raft is left behind as one proceeds on.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
KathyC, I forgot to say that I did take your point about washing clothes by hand being more difficult that the drying of said clothes sans dryer. Even though I do wash some by hand, I’ve not had the experience of washing them all by hand. But I’m sure I will.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
My teacher, Jiyu Kennett, wrote a book called ‘Selling water by the river’.
I never met her personally, only her followers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houn_Jiyu-Kennett
Yes, sitting in the flood. Which is the same as what I meant by the exact centre of the axis of the wheel. Waves and storms, lashing rain and broken houses, trees and dead bodies floating past, but nothing moves….
Or, when the sun shines, blue sky, and people come, they could take the water for free, but they don’t understand that, so I sell it to them. Still nothing moves.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
.
If the ice keeps melting the way it is, we’ll all be sitting in a damn flood, like it, or not. No teacher necessary. Enlightenment’s on the way.
.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Michael so glad your daughter was not taken out by the tree. Points out how iffy our existence is even without collapse. Which should remind us to tell people we love how much we love them often.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
The Welsh have a reputation for sheep shagging, MB, never having tried it, I can only imagine. They are smelly old things. I think that if/when the collapse comes here, it’ll be possible to live on mutton for years. There’s many more sheep than people, all out on remote isolated hill country, perfect for cross bow hunting.
September 6th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Judy, Lehman’s has a good washing plunger that is easier than using a washboard http://www.lehmans.com/store/Home_Goods___Laundry___Washing___Rapid_Laundry_Washer___66RW#66RW
September 6th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
They also have a good wringer that attaches to a tub
http://www.lehmans.com/store/Home_Goods___Laundry___Washing___Lehman_s__Best_Hand_Wringer___32823320#32823320
It takes a bit to get a method for using the wringer on men’s pants but I am well used to it now and it goes pretty quickly. Of course it doesn’t get out as much water as the spin on an electric washer so line drying takes longer.
My washer is outside under the house (which is on pillars) but I can look out over the garden while I work. Winter washing is not so much fun and I have to make sure water doesn’t freeze in my drain hose….. I have much respect for the women of yore….
September 6th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Michael, I drafted a reply to you earlier this afternoon, but somehow I managed to lose it. Thank you for your update on the frogs, toads, and snakes on your property. I have not found a single one here at my house, but I am hopeful that, just like the contingent of salamanders I found,they are here and I just don’t know it. I grew up with such an abundance of these creatures that I really miss seeing them. However, I don’t miss the abundance of poisonous snakes.
I am intrigued with your method of building your hugelkultur beds and would love to hear how they are working out for you. Like you, I don’t have an abundance of soil lying around, so I dug the soil out of the spot where I have my small bed, filled it with small logs and chopped-up shrubs, and used the soil to cover it. Topped it off with shredded leaves. That’s how we plan to do the rest of the beds we will be building over time.
If you and TRDH (and anyone else interested)have not found this link, this has much information about building the hugel beds:
http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/
Also, Michael, I love Sepp Holzer. He’s such a renegade, and he is definitely using downed trees to his advantage. As you know, though, he uses a lot of heavy equipment. Maybe, like some have mentioned, we should not worry because it will bring down industrial civilization much sooner. It’s almost a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
When exposed to repetitive identical stimulation, there is the phenomenon of sensory fatigue.
When putting on one’s most comfortable shirt or pants, one feels how good they are. But in a while, one no longer notices them. That is not because the receptors in the skin have become quiescent, but because the brain is ignoring them.
Of all the senses, the one most prone to sensory fatigue/adaptation is olfaction. The least prone to sensory adaptation is pain.
The story is told of two fisherwomen returning home from a day at work who were caught up in a storm and sought shelter from a gardener on the way. He put them up for the night at a hut on his property where he kept some fragrant flowers. They could not sleep because of the smell of the flowers, so they wetted their fishing nets and spread them out to have a more smell – or should we say stink?
September 6th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
i have a few questions for robin datta (this name reminds me of an alien character in one of the ‘star trek’ series of sci-fi futuristic fantasies on american commercial tv for the past 45 years or so, named ‘data’ who is essentially emotionless, like the original mr. spock) and anyone else who cares to reply, regarding the consequences of choosing a spiritual path that encourages non-attachment as a way of life.
first, non-attachment has it’s charms for any thoughtful creature who has suffered from an acute emotional loss of some thing or one. all good things must end, and that end is very painful sometimes. all is lost, so why get attached to any of it?
but aren’t we genetically disposed to forming attachments? what if forming attachments has enabled our ancestors to thrive? what if we’re programmed to need attachments to experience happiness?
isn’t attachment just another word for love?
i have such questions because i’ve been alienated and lonesome a long time, maybe my whole life, and i wonder sometimes if i’m slowly going insane as a result, when i’m not thinking about how apparently insane everything and everyone else is. it can’t be good to be alienated and despairing, and it can’t be good to cultivate non-attachment to anything or anyone, from a survival perspective.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
That spoils be “more agreeable smell – or should we say stink?”
September 6th, 2012 at 5:10 pm
http://www.imeditate.com/articles/american_buddhism/water_by_the_river.html
September 6th, 2012 at 5:14 pm
otoh, perhaps cultivating attachment to a lovely world in it’s death throes is a sure ticket to insanity. seems we can’t win.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:15 pm
KathyC, thank you for the information. I’m familiar with Lehmans for other products. Are you using any of their lantern/lighting products?
As your house is built on pillars, are you in a flood plain?
Thank you, too, for the reminder link to the Caldicott/Gundersen interview. I’ll be checking it out tonight.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
TVT says: “i have such questions because i’ve been alienated and lonesome a long time, maybe my whole life, and i wonder sometimes if i’m slowly going insane as a result, when i’m not thinking about how apparently insane everything and everyone else is. it can’t be good to be alienated and despairing, and it can’t be good to cultivate non-attachment to anything or anyone, from a survival perspective.”
TVT, I don’t know how to answer this, but I can assure you it breaks my heart. You have established a virtual community here at NBL, and I’m a part of it.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
It is no accident that the word FUKushima begins with the three letters FUK.
It all looks lke the Aliens had better come by soon.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
‘think of the other billions of people on the planet. A good deal of them would look at you like you were speaking a foreign language if you delved into the ins and outs of the scientific issues, and that’s a problem.’
surreality is just one great big problem, isn’t it? it certainly isn’t ideal, which is why ignorance is a huge intractable problem. as has been postulated previously, the agricultural revolution which gave birth to civilization involves the domestication of all life which can be tamed and exploited, including humans. we’ve been domesticated so long as a species our brains are shrinking. the masses have become dogma addicts mired in ignorance. ‘elites’ arguably are no better, possibly worse, imo. one huge insoluble problem. well, there may be one solution: the end of civilization, and a return to a more natural life, assuming the great anthropocene extinction somehow doesn’t extinct us.
September 6th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
Selling water by the river
Master Sogaku Harada died at the age of ninety-one. At his funeral service hung a piece of calligraphy written by himself:
FOR FORTY YEARS I HAVE BEEN SELLING WATER
BY THE BANK OF A RIVER.
HO, HO!
MY LABOURS HAVE BEEN WHOLLY WITHOUT MERIT.
September 6th, 2012 at 6:27 pm
TVT:
Non-attachment refers to the absence of attraction & aversion on the deepest level. As long as there is a sense of “I”, the identity of that “I” involves some attraction and/or some aversion.
But non-attachment does not mean callous indifference. Before enlightenment, “When I itchez, I scratchez”; after enlightenment, “When I itchez, I scratchez”.
In non-attachment, one continues to act in a manner appropriate to the circumstance, but without attraction or aversion to the anticipated results of the action.
In the traditional teachings, it is said that such actions, and only such actions, do not generate new karma.
September 6th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
.
It all looks lke the Aliens had better come by soon.
Maybe they’re already here. Maybe they’re us. Certainly when you look at this objectively, and you play that Sesame Street song that goes like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b0ftfKFEJg&feature=related
you quickly realize that we’re not like any other living thing on this planet, and we really don’t belong.
.
September 6th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
.
All systems go for Feudalism 21st Century Style. They’re rolling out the prototypes.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/honduras-signs-deal-create-private-cities-17154881#.UElYiCJAUTB
Honduras Sets Stage for 3 Privately Run Cities
The “model cities” will have their own judiciary, laws, governments and police forces. They also will be empowered to sign international agreements on trade and investment and set their own immigration policy.
Of course, as of late, it’s what’s been going on de facto, but now it looks like the Middle Man is going to be eliminated. How long until these prototypes enact seven day work weeks and child labor?
.
September 6th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
.
Non-attachment refers to the absence of attraction & aversion on the deepest level. As long as there is a sense of “I”, the identity of that “I” involves some attraction and/or some aversion.
Here’s an example. McMurphy has mastered non-attachment. It does seem appealing considering the Beast that is slouching towards Bethlehem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSWxlaYKoMw
.
September 6th, 2012 at 8:34 pm
I think you are spreading confusion, MB, I don’t think that clip has anything to do with non-attachment, and to the virgin terry, I’d say not to worry about it, non-attachment and all the rest are part of the Buddha’s recommendation to follow the Noble Eightfold Path. It was prescribed as a package, a bundle, so taking bits of it out of context doesn’t make much sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
I think everybody is different, and each should seek a path that makes sense to them. There’s zillions to choose from. Personally, I think zen is the best, but I would say that wouldn’t I.
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/C%20-%20Zen/Ancestors/The%20Zen%20Teachings%20of%20Huang%20Po/Zen%20Teachings%20of%20Huang-po.htm
It would be useless for someone like MB who doesn’t like rules. In the zen monastery I attended, every single thing was governed by rules, and if you broke them you had to leave. Those rules were nothing like as strict as the original 13th C japanese rules, they were considerably relaxed for soft modern Western students.
In a book reviewing European retreat centres, it was described as ‘not suitable for spiritual dilettantes’. Not many people like such a fierce and committed teaching. However, it was exactly what I needed. It was the best thing I ever found in my life.
September 6th, 2012 at 8:39 pm
I find that idea of private cities very alarming, deeply sinister.
September 6th, 2012 at 9:27 pm
In the menagerie of Craig Venter’s imagination, tiny bugs will save the world.
A single gram of soil may contain billions of microbes, and many thousands of species of bacteria alone. About 1% of the bacteria found in soil can be grown in the lab.
Analysis of the genetic material in such samples shows the presence of forms of life that are not otherwise recognised. These are referred to as biological dark matter:
Biological dark matter is uncategorized genetic material on Earth that does not fall under the three existing domains of life: bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes. Its presence suggests that a possible fourth domain of life may yet to be discovered.
It should not be presumed that the release of a few or even many strains of “synthetic bacteria” into the enormously complex and almost entirely unknown wilds of Nature will have adequately predictable consequences.
September 6th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
“Although the FBI now admits that the 2001 anthrax attacks were carried out by one or more U.S. government scientists, a senior FBI official says that the FBI was actually told to blame the Anthrax attacks on Al Qaeda by White House officials (remember what the anthrax letters looked like). Government officials also confirm that the white House tried to link the anthrax to Iraq as a justification for regime change in that country”
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-09-06/if-we-learn-our-history-we’re-not-doomed-repeat-it
September 6th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
It was prescribed as a package, a bundle, so taking bits of it out of context doesn’t make much sense.
When one gets it, one gets it all. There is nothing piecemeal about it.
September 6th, 2012 at 11:46 pm
I am very, very concerned about these issues and actively working on them. We need to educate people and step up to the plate. Humor works. Has anyone seen the Rogue Weathergirl who talks about climate change? 260,000+ views in a few days on YouTube! This gives me hope.
September 7th, 2012 at 12:43 am
Rogue Weathergirl who talks about climate change? 260,000+ views in a few days on YouTube! This gives me hope.
Wile E. Coyote is just beginning to feel around with his toes for solid ground after having run off the climate cliff.
September 7th, 2012 at 12:57 am
Morocco Bama
That muppet clip is fun, however, my all time favourite pre-verbal musical piece is below:
Manha Manha…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N_tupPBtWQ
Also, is it not possible the private cities will not be for the enslavement of poor workers, but the home of the rich, who wish to live amongst only themselves, and a small slave class who serve them, with a clear legal distinction?
After all, if the rich elite PTB take up these residences, the rest of humanity can just cope with the breaking down of infrastructure.
It looks like the beginning of phase one of some derivative of the Hunger Games farce, perhaps.
September 7th, 2012 at 12:57 am
I drafted a reply to you earlier this afternoon, but somehow I managed to lose it.
In Windows, use notepad and save it with a title before entering anything into it. When exiting Notepad, there is a prompt to save changes. Select all, copy all is under Edit; paste is easy with a right-click (left click if one has reversed the mouse buttons, as I have). Macs should have an equivalent method, but I have never used a Mac. I mostly use the iPhone (3G), including browsing and commenting on NBL.
September 7th, 2012 at 1:08 am
Robin Datta
My experience is that it comes like waves, and when the wave engulfs you, for that peoiod there is a letting go of, what you refer to as the ‘attachment’, but Adi Da Samraj refers to as the self contraction.
Those periods can be brief, or they can last in essence some years, and result in very high functioning, and relative ease in submission to the self transcending impulse. Creativity flows very fast and solutions to real or percieved impediments to growth or what is refered to as ‘problem solving’ are expediently mediated by the intuitive function, meshing in infinite timeing with the mechanics of the ordinary time based clockwork ‘reality’.
In other times the ‘attachment’ is as thick and sticky as always, but for the recent experiential memory of another way of existing.
Your comments I take as true for how you perceive it.
No competition here, I just wish to put up that all or nothing is only one way of seeing it, however, when swimming perfectly, and sublimly, where has the water gone? In truth we are the river in that eternal now.( Yes… and the raindrop, and the steam, and the runnoff, and the lake and of course the great oceans – or none of these)
September 7th, 2012 at 1:36 am
The ETs are here now and have been long before our creation. We are the creation of ETs, 120k years ago. That is why we do not fit within nature. If you want to know our true history and have some clues about our future, I urge you to invest some time in watching this playlist by Lloyd Pye.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyB40yU6eo&playnext=1&list=PL6EDD0E37557381E3&feature=results_main
September 7th, 2012 at 3:59 am
.
In the zen monastery I attended, every single thing was governed by rules, and if you broke them you had to leave.
So, I’m guessing here, but it sounds like those afflicted with Tourette syndrome would not be welcome, and would ultimately be kicked out, or hidden in a back closet somewhere when the guests arrived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELUNRa4I_w8&feature=related
.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:10 am
.
Also, is it not possible the private cities will not be for the enslavement of poor workers, but the home of the rich, who wish to live amongst only themselves, and a small slave class who serve them, with a clear legal distinction?
After all, if the rich elite PTB take up these residences, the rest of humanity can just cope with the breaking down of infrastructure.
It looks like the beginning of phase one of some derivative of the Hunger Games farce, perhaps.
Great observation, and yes, this is a very possible permutation.
.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:18 am
“When one gets it, one gets it all. There is nothing piecemeal about it.”
Did you not notice, RD, that t v terry asked you a question concerning non-attachment, to which you did not reply ?
You are surely not correct. An instant understanding of all facets of the Noble Eightfold Path to someone who has no understanding of buddhism ? Even someone devoted to that path might find it extremely difficult to practice, say, Right Livelihood, in contemporary Western soceity, where almost every job and career goes against buddhist teachings.
Even if a person fully understood what Right Livelihood is, the practical problems of earning an income ethically could take years to overcome. And to learn to meditate correctly can take some people years. That’s why so many give up.
Your ‘gets it all’ is based on your own experience is it ? But that’s not of any assistance to t v terry, is it. She asked powerful questions which deserve answers :
“i have a few questions for robin datta (this name reminds me of an alien character in one of the ‘star trek’ series of sci-fi futuristic fantasies on american commercial tv for the past 45 years or so, named ‘data’ who is essentially emotionless, like the original mr. spock) and anyone else who cares to reply, regarding the consequences of choosing a spiritual path that encourages non-attachment as a way of life.
first, non-attachment has it’s charms for any thoughtful creature who has suffered from an acute emotional loss of some thing or one. all good things must end, and that end is very painful sometimes. all is lost, so why get attached to any of it?
but aren’t we genetically disposed to forming attachments? what if forming attachments has enabled our ancestors to thrive? what if we’re programmed to need attachments to experience happiness?
isn’t attachment just another word for love?
i have such questions because i’ve been alienated and lonesome a long time, maybe my whole life, and i wonder sometimes if i’m slowly going insane as a result, when i’m not thinking about how apparently insane everything and everyone else is. it can’t be good to be alienated and despairing, and it can’t be good to cultivate non-attachment to anything or anyone, from a survival perspective.”
My answer says that it’s not ‘non-attachment’ that is the way of life, it’s the Buddha’s Eightfold Path ( if a person chooses buddhism as their preference ) and ‘non-attachment’ is meaningless outside that context. Most people are already alienated and lonely and lost, so confusion over what ‘non-attachment’ means will just make things worse for them.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:30 am
“So, I’m guessing here, but it sounds like those afflicted with Tourette syndrome would not be welcome, and would ultimately be kicked out, or hidden in a back closet somewhere when the guests arrived.”
I have no idea how they’d decide about a case of Tourettes. The general policy is/was that nobody be excluded on any grounds, if they were sincere and genuine. They asked to be told in advance of any special needs or medical conditions.
Guests ? What guests ? It was more like a cave retreat in the Himalayas. Would a person with Tourettes, or the people responsible for such a person, see any benefit in taking them to such a retreat ?
September 7th, 2012 at 4:51 am
.
Guests ? What guests ? It was more like a cave retreat in the Himalayas. Would a person with Tourettes, or the people responsible for such a person, see any benefit in taking them to such a retreat ?
I do. I think it would make for a great movie comedy, or a reality t.v. series.
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September 7th, 2012 at 5:08 am
If you think zen buddhism is about entertaining movies or tv shows, I think you have some misunderstanding, even more of a misapprehension than your earlier connection of ‘One flew over the cuckoo’s nest’ to buddhist non-attachment.
September 7th, 2012 at 5:26 am
Back to electricity outages….
Can we not live with the very strong likelihood that electricity will become less reliable at some stage in the near future?
If so would it not be smart and prudent to clearly look at what we each ‘need’, or while it flow normally, what we ‘need’. and also what we will do without it now?
I use the reasoning that if I live with much less dependence on domestic electricity, without factoring in the embedded electricity in every other product or service I use, then if it stops, then the change will be less disruptive.
That is a little ingenuous, really, because it will not ever be a small disruption, especially with the street chaos it will create, but it may just be that I,(or anyone) who has self inflicted this kind of challenge, or discipline if you like, will have gone through the early stages of electricity deprivation by then, and may have found ways to adapt when it really goes.
On nights like tonight with high winds coming up the valley and over our ridge line, we can get outages from downed trees etc. I have 15 driveway solar lights ready as emergency night lights for the house.
Kids can get scared in such situations, and candles are not particularly safe, and cost too. I have acquired most of my solar lamps from putting up signs in the region for old and unwanted ones.
No harm, no cost, and put to a good use for now.
I just turn them upside down after removing the spike from the bottom.
September 7th, 2012 at 6:19 am
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That’s an excellent point, OzMan. Failure of the electricity grids is not an extinction level event, by any means. Concern over it is centered around the effect it will have on the Consumerist way of life. It will impact all those little “Creature Comforts” people take for granted, including the computer that transmits this message. That’s why I mentioned that the author is still in Stage 3 – Bargaining. She wants people to pay attention, and she’s intelligent enough to know that they can’t pay attention, nor comprehend their environment, be aware of it in its totality, without having developed the capacity to do that, and the educational system has not only failed in that respect, one could argue that is its goal.
Guy has it right by focusing on the real extinction level events like the extinction of 200 species a day. Considering what we know about the interconnectedness of this web of life on this planet, that necessarily means our extinction at that rate, and that ratio of extinction of species to creation of species. But, Bargainers don’t like to hear about things that are not fixable, because “we have do something about it.” And, to them, doing something about it usually amounts to nothing more than making this a kinder, gentler Consumerist culture. You can put a velvet glove on an iron fist, but it’s still an iron fist, and it still has the same considerable impact, except maybe not as many abrasions.
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September 7th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Mb – you wrote “Failure of the electricity grids is not an extinction level event, by any means.”
I disagree – it is not just about comforts. If the whole US grid, Canada and Mexico went down, no more gasoline would be pumped as that requires electricity. (is any country building up a supply of hand pumps?) Not only would no more food be shipped to cities but no more fuel would be shipped for running the backups to nuclear power plants cooling systems. Although the plants would shut down automatically, the fuel still needs to be cooled and the fuel in the spent fuel pools needs to be cooled or we have Fukushima for 104 plants in the US, plus 17 in Canada and 2 in Mexico. Hospitals would shut down. No tractors or harvesting machines would be able to get fuel. I haven’t seen that a herd of draft animals is being built up, nor a non-electrical plant to make hand plows and all the extra shovels folks are going to need. Most people will not have seeds or the knowledge to plant them. And of course all pumping of water will cease so only folks with hand pumps (me) or living in walking distance to a water source will be able to get water. All refrigeration will end without people having cold cellars already in place. No water and sewage plants shut down its going to get smelly and germy for people quick except those who have a humanure set up (me). I wouldn’t expect to live long after the grids went down but I might live long enough to see how it plays out – of course with radios, internet down I won’t know what is going on in the outside world. So until someone takes me out, I starve, or I take me out I have a 1 years supply of candles and a bunch of books I wouldn’t mind reading again. See how preparation can make the road to extinction a bit less rocky? Unfortunately I can stock up 1 years supply of bananas – is life worth living without bananas?
Worldwide shut down of all the grids has the same effect except now we are talking 440 nuclear plants going Fukushima – but these Fukushimas won’t have anyone able to do anything to contain them. No more oil will be pumped. No more shipments as the ships can’t get fuel, and no fleet of sailing ships is being built.
While this might not bring total extinction, it will come close. This has been discussed before in NBL but I think it was before you started posting – I don’t know how long you have been reading. Here is one article which I have posted before http://www.whentechfails.com/node/1545
Solar flares or EMP attack could do the job before fuel runs out for the grid. Solar flares have been more active of late and a Carrington type solar event is always possible since it happened before in I think 1859.
September 7th, 2012 at 7:40 am
MB in this essay Guy discusses 3 paths to near-term human extinction
http://guymcpherson.com/2011/08/three-paths-to-near-term-human-extinction/
One is nuclear meltdown – he writes
“We’re headed for extinction via nuclear meltdown
Safely shuttering a nuclear power plant requires a decade or two of careful planning. Far sooner, we’ll complete the ongoing collapse of the industrial economy. This is a source of my nuclear nightmares.
When the world’s 442 nuclear power plants melt down catastrophically, we’ve entered an extinction event. Think clusterfukushima, times 400. Ionizing radiation could, and probably will, destroy every terrestrial organism and, therefore, every marine and freshwater organism. That, by the way, includes the most unique, special, intelligent animal on Earth.”
September 7th, 2012 at 8:47 am
TRDH,
I too am spending a lot of time thinking about what to feed the chickens. As many here have noted my choice of using the garden as my lifeboat is probably stupid, “one well placed shot from hiding”, but there is no way to practice being a nomad in North America pre-collapse. As you do, a person can have goats. Still, you have to feed them until the conditions get bad enough to allow/warrant cutting loose from the homestead. When is that time? What markers do we have to tell us that “today!” is the day to abandon our homes and strike out into the forest. Speaking of ‘into the forest’ that is the title of a very good book by that title (“Into the Forest” by Jean Hegland—–I recommend it). It is a gut wrenching look at the slide down into collapse, first person, through they eyes of one of two sisters.
You and I, and many others here are working hard every day to learn the things we need to if we are to function through the many small steps on the way down.
Michael Irving
September 7th, 2012 at 9:29 am
thanx for the empathetic reply, judy, to my post of yesterday. ulvfugl (where did this name come from and what does it mean?), i thougtht r.d. gave me about as good a response as he could have to the question of attachment. it makes sense to limit attachment in a world of transience. btw, i’m male, not female.
September 7th, 2012 at 9:44 am
the name translates as ‘wolfbird’ in Norwegian.
RD gave you a response re non-attachment ? Did I miss it ? What was it ?
September 7th, 2012 at 10:18 am
I’m re-reading “Oryx and Crake” by Margaret Atwood, because I find new insights every time. Last night, on page 223 of the hard cover edition, I found the characters saying this:
“Let’s suppose for the sake of argument,” said Crake one evening, “that civilization as we know it gets destroyed. Want some popcorn?”
“Is that real butter?” said Jimmy.
“Nothing but the best at Watson-Crick,” said Crake. “Once it’s flattened, it could never be rebuilt.”
“Because why? Got any salt?”
“Because all the available surface metals have already been mined,” said Crake. “Without which, no iron age, no bronze age, no age of steel, and all the rest of it. There’s metals farther down, but the advanced technology we need for extracting those would have been obliterated.”
“It could be put back together,” said Jimmy, chewing. It was so long since he’d tasted popcorn this good. “They’d still have the instructions.”
“Actually, not, said Crake. “It’s not like the wheel, it’s too complex now. Suppose the instructions survived, suppose there were any people left with the knowledge to read them. Those people would be few and far between, and they wouldn’t have the tools. Remember, no electricity. Then once those people died, that would be it. They’d have no apprentices, they’d have no successors. Want a beer?”
“Is it cold?”
“All it takes,” said Crake, “is the elimination of one generation. One generation of anything. Beetles, trees, microbes, scientists, speakers of French, whatever. Break the link in time between one generation and the next, and it’s game over forever.”
__________________
My mouth fell open at that point. There are objections to be made here, but I think the point stands.
BC Nurse Prof
“I think my karma just ran over your dogma.”
September 7th, 2012 at 10:23 am
Check this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgOp-nz3lHg
September 7th, 2012 at 10:48 am
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Kathy C, point taken, I forgot about those damn nuclear power plants. Those are the clincher. If not for them, yes, loss of the electrical grids would have a substantial impact….meaning significant depopulation and shortened lifespans, but it wouldn’t extinct us from that alone. It would considerably thin our numbers, which of course, we all know is a good thing….depending on what sort of social arrangement comes thereafter, or social arrangements, should I say. But those nuclear power plants make that scenario moot, as well as the countless other things that are heading our way, concomitantly. Thanks for bringing me back to earth on that one. I was feeling a wee bit optimistic since it’s Wine Night, and you had to go and burst my “hey, look at me, I’m right in the middle of the flood and feeling no pain” bubble.
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September 7th, 2012 at 10:55 am
.
“All it takes,” said Crake, “is the elimination of one generation. One generation of anything. Beetles, trees, microbes, scientists, speakers of French, whatever. Break the link in time between one generation and the next, and it’s game over forever.”
I guess it depends on how one looks at it. Yes, game over, meaning Civilization over, but barring extinction-level events, which of course we know we can’t bar, it could be one generation from Paradise Found. We could come full circle and be back again at that Garden known as Eden. Yes, of course, it will take a few million years for the smudges to rinse clean, but at that point, we’ll have plenty of time on our hands, and no clocks to watch. Thank you for sharing this positive news and cheering me up after taking Kathy’s Blue Pill.
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September 7th, 2012 at 11:01 am
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btw, i’m male, not female.
It’s tough to tell with that name, tvt. Are you a very sexual person, like Pat?
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/its-pat/1353781
Just joking. It’s not personal.
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September 7th, 2012 at 11:30 am
TVT:
There is a book that I found helpful:
The Mind of Clover: Essays in Zen Buddhist Ethics by Robert Aitken
Aitken’s introduction to Zen began as a Japanese prisoner-of-war, and he went on to be recognised as a Zen master.
In the book he describes the significance if the Eight Grave Precepts (not stealing, not killing, not lying, etc.) to society. However he ties it all together with a very basic idea.
Clover does its thing naturally: it acts in an appropriate manner by just growing. Humans also could be like clover, but with a mind: they would act in a manner appropriate to humans. Like clover, humans would also have likes and dislikes, but again like clover, would be non-attached to such likes and dislikes.
And when a person gets it, the person gets it all. The many qualities ascribed to such persons all bud and blossom together. Some of them are:
Non-anticipation: (in the sense of attraction) for future outcomes.
Fearlessness: (in the sense of aversion) for future outcomes.
Equanimity: equipoise in the face of all vicissitudes.
Absence of sense of agency: no perception that “I am the one who is doing such and such”.
Gentleness: in thought, word and deed.
Awareness: including awareness of being the unconditioned source of the conditioned awareness.
Sense of eternal: of the unconditioned awareness.
There are many other descriptors, which can be found in the Vedantic and Buddhist traditions.
September 7th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
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juggle, thanks for that. Here’s another you may find interesting that’s related to what you posted.
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/56746/TechnoCalyps_TransHuman/
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September 7th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
BC Nurse Prof,
Orxy and Crake is a great (and horrible) book in so many ways. Thanks for the quote. It was like a slap upalongside the head. One generation—–so true.
Michael Irving
September 7th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
BC Nurse Prof,
PS: I recommended “Into the Forest” by Jean Hegland to TRDH. You might like it too(for its writing–the message is not pleasant).
Michael Irving
September 7th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Thanks for posting the Transhuman link, MB. I watched a few minutes. I’m familiar with how those people think. They make me feel ill. I remember one of them arguing the case and saying it would remove all cruelty from the world. When asked how, they replied that they’d genetically re-engineer all living creatures so that they didn’t need to kill anything else.
I think that’s totally insane. I share Theodore Kaczynski’s take on technology.
http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt
September 7th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Robin, re the ‘getting it all at once’. That’s Zen. That’s not classical buddhism and the Noble Eightfold Path. There’s a vast difference.
September 7th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
MB, yeah those damn nuclear plants. I think it didn’t hit most people until Fukushima, although we should have known it all along. It didn’t hit me until months after Fukushima. The interconnections are where the hidden problems lay and sometimes we don’t see them until something happens. I remember after Iceland’s Eyjafjallajökull erupted that I learned that this could shut down air traffic. Days later I learned about fish rotting in airports and farmers in Africa unable to sell their cut flowers to Europe. Those are much smaller but still point to the fact that there are in the famous words of Rumsfeld “unknown unknowns” in terms of how one event might snowball. In the economic world letters of credit are not well known but absolutely essential for world trade – in 2008 they almost failed http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/10/international-trade-seizing-up-due-to.html and had they done so industrial civ would have been brought to their knees. I had never heard of them until 2008.
September 7th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
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I share Theodore Kaczynski’s take on technology.
Same here. Here’s an excellent German doc on that. I can’t recommend enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSu3RZCgQpU
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September 7th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Robin, re the ‘getting it all at once’. That’s Zen. That’s not classical buddhism and the Noble Eightfold Path. There’s a vast difference.
There is a difference between getting it all (as in all descriptors,pari passu) and getting it all at once (as in “instantaneously”).
The differences between Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana are in their approaches. They all profess the same goal, à la Siddhartha Gautama. And that is where all the descriptors apply simultaneously – to be distinguished from instantaneously.
September 7th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
BC nurse – thanks I just ordered “Oryx and Crake”
September 7th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
And then from my source for dire health news thanks to Crofs H5N1 blog this bit of news that may be just an attempt to get funds or may be a real warning of things to come.
http://crofsblogs.typepad.com/h5n1/2012/09/dr-congo-ebola-could-soon-be-a-global-emergency.html
DR Congo: Ebola could “soon be a global emergency”
Via Mediacongo.net: Ebola in DRC: it may “soon be a global emergency”. Excerpt from a Google translation, slightly edited:
The UN has launched an appeal for two million dollars to fight the epidemic of Ebola hemorrhagic fever, a highly contagious disease that has killed 14 people since mid-August in the northeast of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).
The World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Fund for Children (UNICEF) launched a “joint appeal for funds to support this struggle which totaled $ 2 million,” Dr. Léodegal Bazira, WHO Representative in the DRC told the media on Wednesday.
“We also call on all partners to join in the fight against this epidemic, which if not controlled quickly, is a public health emergency that can quickly be global,” he said.
September 7th, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Ok, Robin, but why I argue, as that my earlier point was that ‘non-attachment’, does not make sense, out of the context of the Eightfold Path. I agree ( if what you are saying ) that aspects all of Eightfold Path have equal value, and belong together as a bundle.
As I see it, the early classical buddhist way, was to spend your life working your way through that Path, which provided both a cultural map for soceity, and an individual religious or philosophical quest.
But zen, having amalgamated much of Taoism, is a different animal, and as you’ll know, there are many also varieties of zen. As I see it, Gautama was a Hindu, taking up the much older traditions of yoga and meditation. What he contributed was the rigorous philosophical analysis of the problem of suffering. My opinion, non-attachment comes about as a fruit of Right Meditation. To talk about it outside the context of the Eightfold Path doesn’t make much sense to me.
September 7th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Thanks for the Ted K. link, MB, glad you agree with me, I’m already more familiar than most with the story, but I’ll try to find time to watch it later.
September 7th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
“Mount Fuji ‘under more pressure than last eruption’ September 6, 2012 Pressure in the magma chamber of Japan’s Mount Fuji is now higher than it was the last time the volcano erupted more than 300 years ago, scientists say, according to a report Thursday.”
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2012-09-mount-fuji-pressure-eruption.html#jCp
Gotta keep things interesting.
September 7th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Ed,
That sounds like a really good start on the hugelkulture so it seems like if it was as effective as some claim you would be less dependent on irrigation. The theory is that the roots extend to the vicinity of the wood and are able to get at the water trapped in the wood when it is slowly released (osmosis) into the soil.
Moving water is a problem, hence the search of alternative methods. Speaking of which, I have made a stab at the buried clay pot idea, although I used a method developed in India using buried (vertical) plastic pipe on my spuds last year. I made spuds but a gopher got most of them under a layer of mulch before I noticed what was happening.
Re: water—–Have you tried the book “Gardening When It Counts (Growing food in hard times) by Steve Solomon? His approach is the opposite of French Intensive. It is meant to emulate the pre-electricity kind of gardening/farming, widely spaced plants/clean cultivation.
Michael Irving
September 7th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
So much to add! Ted Kaczynski has a lot of fans. Here’s an excellent article from the Chronicle of Higher Education on him and his manifesto:
http://chronicle.com/article/The-Unabombers-Pen-Pal/131892/
A brilliant man who came to his wit’s end and decided the only way to get people to read his work was to murder someone. He’s still trying to get people to see what’s happening under their noses.
Steve Solomon’s book is called “Gardening When it Counts”
http://www.amazon.com/Gardening-When-Counts-Growing-Mother/dp/086571553X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347055282&sr=1-3&keywords=steve+solomon
and it’s one of my most-used references on gardening. He lives in Tasmania now, and maintains that he’s becoming a hermit. I can relate.
http://www.soilandhealth.org/05steve%27sfolder/05aboutmeindex.html
His sad rhetoric on the state of the planet reminds me of what I read here.
Ebola, yes, this was bound to happen. If you read the 1995 book by Laurie Garrett called “The Coming Plague” you’ll read the story of Ebola and the “disease cowboys” of the CDC. Might be heros, might be fools, might be idiots. Idiots with Ph.D.’s. A more gripping tale you’ll never find. Everything Laurie Garrett said in that book is on the brink now. It may be the most frightening thing you’ve ever read.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_12?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=laurie%20garrett%27s%20the%20coming%20plague
Michael Irving: Thanks for recommending “Into the Forest” by Jean Hegland. I’ll go get it. I won’t mind if it’s depressing. So was “The Road” and I managed to get through that. “The Coming Plague” is scarier by far.
Want inspiration? Try “Animal, Vegetable, Miracle” by Barbara Kingsolver. It made me cry, but then, I’m a mother, too.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:07 pm
I agree ( if what you are saying ) that aspects all of Eightfold Path have equal value, and belong together as a bundle.
The descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones are not a bundle, they flow from each other. If there is one, there are all the others. No comment was made about the Eightfold Path.
My opinion, non-attachment comes about as a fruit of Right Meditation
Right Meditation is a path to non-attachment, and, depending on their experience and understanding, some may feel that it is the only path. Non-attachment is one of the descriptors of the characteristics of enlightened ones. None of the descriptors is present without all the others.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Robin Datta, thank you for your information about cutting and pasting to notepad. I think that what I did was close my browser window before I sent the comment. My losing my post is a rare occurrence for me.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:42 pm
BC Nurse, I just ordered the coming plague – getting my reading options well stocked thanks to you.
A book about what life would be like after an EMP attack on the US is “One Second After” http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=one+second+after&sprefix=one+second%2Cstripbooks%2C289 not great literature and a number of flaws including not having the nuclear plants go Fukushima, but all in all a rather good idea of what might happen and how people might behave if the grid goes down.
Spoiler alert – they do eat the dog in the end.
Also The Last Policeman about earth with an asteroid heading straight to it, nothing can be done and impact is in six months. A different scenario than One Second After so how people act is quite different.
September 7th, 2012 at 4:42 pm
TVT, I meant what I said, and I’m sure you know it. Your comment about empathy means you understand where I’m coming from.
September 7th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Robin Datta, thank you for your information about cutting and pasting to notepad.
Copying rather than cutting will leave it in notepad until it is online. Also using Undo will undo the last action in Windows Notepad – it will undo the cutting if that was the last action.
September 7th, 2012 at 5:54 pm
Dear Robin,
Again I thank you for your instruction.
September 7th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
“I agree ( if what you are saying ) that aspects all of Eightfold Path have equal value, and belong together as a bundle.
The descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones are not a bundle, they flow from each other. If there is one, there are all the others. No comment was made about the Eightfold Path.
My opinion, non-attachment comes about as a fruit of Right Meditation
Right Meditation is a path to non-attachment, and, depending on their experience and understanding, some may feel that it is the only path. Non-attachment is one of the descriptors of the characteristics of enlightened ones. None of the descriptors is present without all the others.”
Well, thanks for that reply, Robin, but I must say that we appear to be speaking straight past one another.
As I understand it, there’s an obligation in buddhism, that if someone asks you a question about buddhism, you give them a clear answer, explaining on the level that they can comprehend, so that they understand.
If I can still recall accurately, T V T asked you something along the lines of whether loving the Earth is attachment, and whether attachment is positive and natural and so forth.
Quite how you arrive at “descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones” I do not know. But anyway, who cares about ‘descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones’, what ordinary folk seek is practical, applicable answers to the problems they encounter in their everyday existence, explained in useful, accessible terms, not opaque theological word salad.
Anyway, as we don’t seem to be getting anywhere constructive, I’ll drop the matter, unless you wish to pursue it further.
September 7th, 2012 at 9:02 pm
As I understand it, there’s an obligation in buddhism, that if someone asks you a question about buddhism, you give them a clear answer, explaining on the level that they can comprehend, so that they understand.
My reply was tailored to TVT’s query.
TVT’s response to my reply:
i thougtht r.d. gave me about as good a response as he could have to the question of attachment. it makes sense to limit attachment in a world of transience.
September 7th, 2012 at 9:37 pm
I am extremely hostile to industrial civilization, but sorry, cannot muster sympathy for Kaczynski, one of his mail bombs went through the office at which my then-wife was working in, wounded a Cal professor who was the (rather arbitrary) target.
Rebels Against the Future by Kirkpatrick Sale is by the way an excellent book on the original luddites and their relevancy to the present, still timely though it came out 18 years ago.
September 8th, 2012 at 3:04 am
Okay, Robin, so if I take it that you and TVT are satisfied on that matter, then I’d like to address a question to you on my own behalf, if I may. It is this :
If there are two things, x and y, and a posited relationship between them, designated as variable… i.e. varying in degree of attachment/non-attachment…
Then substitute yourself, or Buddha, or anyone, or ‘a human’ for x, and substitute ‘other’, or ‘world’, or Earth, or biosphere, or ‘life’, or ‘my brother, sister, son, daughter, wife, husband, lover…’ for y
Then what should be the quality of relationship between x and y ?
Should it be attachment, or non-attachment ? Passionate delight ? Hostile abuse ? How might it best be described and applied ?
I think you could answer from your own personal, individual perspective, or from what you deem to be buddhist, or other, orthodox teaching, or indeed some other perspective, or you could refer me to someone else’s thinking on the topic. Or, please feel free to ignore my question, you’re not obliged to present any answer at all
I have in mind that the Buddha was once questioned by a follower, concerning the intense suffering resulting from rejection by a very beautiful woman whom he was passionately in love with. If I remember the story correctly, the Buddha’s instruction was to meditate and visualize the woman as a rotting corpse upon a charnel ground.
September 8th, 2012 at 3:28 am
“…sorry, cannot muster sympathy for Kaczynski”
Jeff S., I don’t think it is necessary to have sympathy for Ted K. to be able to find useful ideas in his analysis of technology, etc. I mean the two things are easily distinguishable, aren’t they ? Lots of good books have been written by very unpleasant people, havn’t they ? Obama blows up innocent people with drones, etc, almost every day of the week, and yet millions think he’s really great, a nice guy. Lots of really nice, gentle charming people can’t even spell ‘technology’, let alone analyse our relationship with it and what that does to the Earth. There’s quite a lot of things that Ted K. has said that I strongly reject, and i don’t think of him as a martyr, or a hero, or a maniac, or anything like that. I found his careful inspection of technology and where it is taking us, to be extremely interesting and useful, much of it derives from J. Ellul, of course, who is also an interesting author.
I find the blind faith that most people have in technology as dreadful, totally horrifying. It’s an ideology, a religion. An eminent UK scientist, Susan Greenfield, who I believe holds an position at Oxford making her responsible for educating the public re science, or some such thing, said recently that technology is neutral, that ‘we’ are in charge, and ‘we’ chose the technology we want, which is patently absurd, a kindergarten level of insight, none of us get any say in whether we want drones hovering outside our houses, or satellites photographing us, or nanoparticles in products we buy, or fracking for gas, etc, etc, etc. There’s no democratic accountability, no choice, no responsibility, nobody is in charge or control. Very few people question it at all.
September 8th, 2012 at 6:20 am
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I am extremely hostile to industrial civilization, but sorry, cannot muster sympathy for Kaczynski
Who said anything about sympathy? I found his case interesting and intriguing, and like ulvfugl, researched it. It’s quite a rabbit hole that keeps going for those who have the time, which I don’t, not for that, at least, but the doc I posted touches on the depths of the rabbit hole and covers, rather broadly, everything related to Ted Kaczynski and his manifesto. That doesn’t mean I condone what he did, because I don’t, but that doesn’t preclude me from understanding exactly what transpired and why, and it shouldn’t preclude you, either. However, let’s apply that sympathy argument you’re using to what your ex-wife was doing at the time and for whom she was working. That institution is in bed with the Military Industrial Complex, and many of the department heads on up, if not all, were, and are, on board with that because it brings them job security. The Military Industrial Complex is the cold, banal, and ruthless enforcement arm of Industrial Civilization. It clears, and protects, Industrial Civilization’s Death March path across the planet, and it kills, maims and inflicts endless suffering in the process…..exponentially more suffering than Ted Kacznyski could have ever intended to inflict with his homemade mail bombs, and yet, I don’t see any evidence that Cal is considered a pariah by you, and the majority of other tenured professors the country, and world over. So, I don’t buy the sympathy line. That’s a canard, and ridiculously ironic, considering, not to mention, intellectually dishonest, because its implication is to thwart inquiry in pursuit of greater understanding.
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September 8th, 2012 at 6:26 am
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Wow, you know the end is near when Chris Hedges is a guest of Alex Jones. It’s getting weirder and weirder.
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September 8th, 2012 at 6:56 am
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Like I said, I can’t recommend that Kaczynski doc enough. There are so many avenues of inquiry that can spin off from it, and it is ultimately much more than just Kaczynski.
Take Heinz von Foerster, for example. You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary. The interview is fascinating, and opens up so many channels of thought and areas of research and inquiry, it’s mind boggling.
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September 8th, 2012 at 7:43 am
Possibly worse:
http://arctic-news.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/update-on-september-arctic-cyclone.html
Paul Beckwith, B.Eng, M.Sc. (Physics), Ph. D. student (Climatology) and
Part-time Professor, University of Ottawa
The loss of Arctic sea ice appears to be flattening out at the moment. The above image shows Arctic sea ice extent (total area of at least 15% ice concentration) for the last 7 years, compared to the average 1972-2011, as calculated by the Polar View team at the University of Bremen, Germany.
However, Paul Beckwith warns that Hurricane Leslie looks set to capture Hurricane Michael just off the Canadian maritimes and strongly impact Nova Scotia and Newfoundland (large hurricane), to then continue northward and start to affect Arctic climate by compressing isobars creating large pressure gradients and thus high winds.
Paul points at the image below, from weather.unisys.com/gfsx, showing a 9 day GFSx model for Arctic region.
The model shows that an Arctic cyclone is amplified as a result of Leslie and a strong high pressure ridge is also generated over the Beaufort Sea. As the Arctic cyclone decreases in strength a strong cyclone is generated over Alaska.
“Needless to say this scenario would be very destructive to Arctic sea ice if it plays out,” Paul adds. “Also, there is no apparent decrease in Arctic sea surface temperatures in projections out to September 12th, and no apparent salinity change. I will be amazed if this melt season does not last until the end of September or even into early October.”
September 8th, 2012 at 7:49 am
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Here’s a discussion between Heinz von Foerster and Sherwin Gooch from the Program High Tech Heroes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htkzDvcsR8k
As part of Kaczynski’s punishment, he’s forced to watch this series fourteen hours a day until the day he dies.
Autopoiesis is an interesting concept, and it ties in nicely with the Egregore concept, as well.
Note that Gooch is one of those vain Tranhumanists who believes we can just replicate what makes us, us, and thus have multiple copies for back-up in case one gets destroyed….until the electricity grids go down, that is.
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September 8th, 2012 at 8:13 am
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Here’s a good link to a comprehensive analysis of Cybernetics.
http://bcreativecosmosplanetaryforum.runboard.com/t1914
From the link:
Next in this series is one of the most influential of the early cyberneticists, Gregory Bateson (1904-1980).
“The major problems in the world are the result of the difference between how nature works and the way people think.”
“The myth of power, is of course, a very powerful myth; and probably most people in this world more or less believe in it… But it is still epistemological lunacy and leads inevitably to all sorts of disaster… If we continue to operate in terms of a Cartesian dualism of mind versus matter, we shall probably also come to see the world in terms of God versus man; élite versus people; chosen race versus others; nation versus nation and man versus environment. It is doubtful whether a species having both an advanced technology and this strange way of looking at the world can endure…”
“The whole of our thinking about what we are and what other people are has got to be restructured. This is not funny, and I do not know how long we have to do it in. If we continue to operate on the premises that were fashionable during the Pre-Cybernetic era, and which were especially underlined during the Industrial Revolution, which seemed to validate the Darwinian unit of survival, we may have twenty or thirty years before the logical reductio ad absurdum of our old positions destroys us. Nobody knows how long we have, under the present system, before some disaster strikes us, more serious than the destruction of any group of nations. The most important task today is, perhaps, to learn to think in a new way.”
~Gregory Bateson
Serendipitously, my compulsion to call it the System was right on target.
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September 8th, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Morocco Bama:
“and yet, I don’t see any evidence that Cal is considered a pariah by you, and the majority of other tenured professors the country, and world over. So, I don’t buy the sympathy line. That’s a canard, and ridiculously ironic, considering, not to mention, intellectually dishonest, because its implication is to thwart inquiry in pursuit of greater understanding.”
Loose with the truth here. On what basis do you conclude that i’m tenured professor, or ever was? Or that my ex ever was? And WTF do you conclude that i think Cal is OK? I was for several decades an academic wage worker for the university, i.e. did the work of the professors at a fraction of their pay. My ex was a clerk. Yeah, Cal is part of the military-industrial complex, and the corporate complex in general. The entire US economic system is, alright? Enough with this holier-than-thou stuff.
Cal has designed every nuclear weapon in the US arsenal, via Lawrence Livermore. The various departments do research for both the US government and the corporate monster, stuff like “smart dust,” tiny dust-particle-size computers that can float around and spy on people, stuff like GMOs, stuff like training corporate cogs.
I held a job so i could pay for my survival needs, the very structure of capitalist society forces people into wage slavery for survival. http://www.dailybattle.pair.com/2012/occupy_target_destroy_ruling_money_fetish.shtml This job enabled me to survive while affording me opportunities for sedition and subversion, by bringing up topics such as eco-destruction or the actual material facts behind capitalism or military applications during discussion of math problems that prepare people for wage work as engineers, physicists, chemists. For the most part, it didn’t make much of an impact, though one never knows, i hope i threw in some monkey wrenches into the conditioning machinery. I’m now retired, and glad of it, nowadays i can rarely stand to be even around campus, it’s so repulsive. But in this, Cal differs little from any other campus, or indeed any other workplace.
September 8th, 2012 at 10:41 pm
Morocco Bama
Hey how can you get to posting I have broken some golden rule about not getting personal with you. as a NBL poster, and then go gunning for Jeff S’s ex-wife concerning who, or what quasi military contractor/ collaborator she once worked for?
I’m just about convinced you are a spoiler agent trying to steer the discussion on this website to some other purpose.
If such a case were so, getting everyone to run their ideas by your filter is the first main objective, which you are close to achieving, nothing personal in that, just my opinion. You are free to agree or not agre….blah blah blah.
I have no way of knowing if you are a spoiler agent, working for a clear vested interest, but I suggest you don’t break your own rules, (not mine) dished out to other posters, otherwise you will become redundant and you will just simply not be responded to.
I reccommend reading, or rereading, ‘The Celestine Prophecy’ for a rundown on how to deal with hypocritical controllers.
I wish it were different, and I wish to acknowledge an otherwise solid contribution on your part to attempting to get others to think very far beyond single issues, and single bits of the puzzles we toy with here, however, you have lost me as an interested party.
As I just wrote, I wish it were otherwise.
I can’t censor you, just be silent.
All
I have found the series ‘James Bourke Connections’ to be pretty interesting so far, after 2 x 45 min episodes.
Originally posted for the discussion on electricity dependency I think, but it ranges far and wide into technology dependency. Worth the time IMO.
September 8th, 2012 at 11:00 pm
Exhortations to do this:
‘Like I said, I can’t recommend that K——i doc enough. There are so many avenues of inquiry that can spin off from it, and it is ultimately much more than just K——i.
Take H—z v– F——r, for example. You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary. The interview is fascinating, and opens up so many channels of thought and areas of research and inquiry, it’s mind boggling’…
Are interesting to me.
I could go and search these people, and download the K——-i document, but then there would be a record of ot stored somewhere for many years, linked to my name and social security number, in that new facility that stores information for future searches, and it could be used as a pretext in a post patriot act America to constitute as an act of planning t—–ism.
I don’t intend to search these things, but just thought many may like to know.
September 9th, 2012 at 1:45 am
OzMan
If you want anonymity on the internet use Firefox browser and install Tor.
Given the involvement of the US military in its inception, could be designed to make you feel safe when you are not. Depends how paranoid you want to be.
September 9th, 2012 at 3:20 am
What an interesting turn to this discussion !
I just love the smell of paranoia in the morning
Jeff’s comment links back to something I was wanting to say about the buddhist Eightfold Path, and getting it as one bundle. It might be relatively easy to find Right Thought, Right Effort, Right Meditation, etc, but when it comes to Right Livelihood, things get tricky in this modern Western soceity, where almost every means of making a living is basically unethical.
Money is the tool that the System uses to control everyone. ‘Either fit into the machine or fuck of and die’. Someone tested pound notes, – or was it dollar bills ? probably both – for traces of cocaine, and an amazingly high percentage were positive ( I forget the figure ) but if you think about it, every UK sterling pound is stained with invisible blood, going back centuries…
I was never able to compromise, as Jeff describes, and fit into an unethical job. Means I’ve been very poor, hungry, cold, and that’s not easy to endure. We all have to make that choice. Security from being part of Leviathan, a zek, or insecurity and living on your wits, on the outside. Ted K. could have still been living in his shack, on rabbits and vegetables, if he had not had that silly idea to kill people. Now he has security and comfort inside the Max, but no freedom…
I watched half of the Ted K so far, I’ll watch the rest later. I watched the von Foerster guy. I’m familiar with Maturana and Varela and autopoesis. Trouble is, cybernetics is so reductionist. Everyone is doing this all the time, trying to explain ‘us’, on the level of genes, or neurochemistry, or as a machine, or whatever. I insist that’s a mistake. I am a HUMAN BEING
I have a capacity for free will, nobility, dignity, grace. My soul, or my spirit, or buddhanature, or whatever you want to call your inner being, is a hell of lot more than genes or neurochemistry or a machine or cybernetics… it contains the whole Universe, is one way of putting it… made out of star stuff, gazing back at the stars…
It’s true, on one level, I am an animal, but then how do people view animals ? As the superb, astounding, beautiful things they really are, or is it a term of condescension that diminishes them and us ? If a giraffe or a seal or a lion is beautiful, then so am I. I’m not willing to be put into a box, and confined by someone else’s ignorant small-minded squalid DISgraceful conception, definition, of what a human being is.
September 9th, 2012 at 3:39 am
The Biology of Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCp1JdEmeZc
September 9th, 2012 at 5:32 am
ulvfugl
It’s not paranoia if they are really out to get you. Ha. Sorry, just had to pull that old chestnut out of my pocket.
Regarding the trace-ability of internet contacts I simply work on the princilpe that if it’s a home or business account it can be time and date stamped back to you. If that is too secure for the real workings of the System well and good. I’ll be damned if I’ll get encouraged into searching a known, and convicted terorist, from my home computer.
With the unknown unknowns in the modern world, a little use of the bullshit detector is in order. My detector went close to the edge of the scale, but then it is my detector I’m admitting.
Anyhoo, your words:
‘when it comes to Right Livelihood, things get tricky in this modern Western soceity, where almost every means of making a living is basically unethical…Money is the tool that the System uses to control everyone. ‘Either fit into the machine or fuck of and die’’
deserve further comment.
I recall some History of Europe TV program years ago positing soverign coins were used to create an economic system so it could be taxed in movable capital, not just cumbersome pigs, or wheat, or wood. Laws of money were made to serve the soverign and perhaps the ruling nobility. I’m not sure if it was a win win for them both or a bit of a continual battle for what we now call hegemony, or dominance.
However, money is a comodity of power to the degree people comply with it. If two people decide to swap anything, or even just give and receive anything, be it food, water, medical service, roofing iron or music, without using a currency exchange then there is the opportunity to have a direct ethical interchange. If more people enter the circle then there is a network, with no unfairness, no ethical exploitations and moral uncertainty. Of course if we exchange items and to some degree experience and knowledge acquired form capitalist pathways we can be accused of neglecting that preexisting inequality, or unethical origins of our earlier possession of the item or skill or knowledge.
I think this kind of secondary problem is also an opportunity, on a personal scale, to correct the earlier unethical situation, by using these items and knowledge for free, as a gift, to assist others with their ‘needs’. Granted it may not work well on a big scale, but I ask everyone, what is working on a big scale? I am not a Buddhist, however the Buddhist precepts are crikey good to look at and develop some perspective from.
BTW the Kung Fu teacher was teaching it as a form of street defence, especially for women, and not as a form of aggression.
I once was taught Wing Chung Kung Fu by a very Western looking guy, who was a Buddhist, and he never handle the money we paid him. He would just ask us to put it on a small spot on a bench. He had a young female assistant, (no evidence of hanky panky there), and he asked her to put the money in a pouch somewhere out of sight. I thought of the problems he must have encountered in diong all that, but it struck me that he was asking for the money, and the distinction between that and handling the money seemed not very consistant. I’m not bagging the guy, just attempting to assess the merits of the choices he seem to have.
It is my understanding that traditional Buddhist ethics as practiced in the East was that practitioners relied exclusively on public donations of all human needs, water, food, clothing, housing and services like medical etc. If the greater culture did not support their way of life then it would not flousish. A kind of spiritual Darwinism in a wierd kind of way.
IMO Money has a very short time to live now. Just when it is obselete, is hard to know.
Animals are beautiful, even the ugly ones.
September 9th, 2012 at 5:44 am
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Hey how can you get to posting I have broken some golden rule about not getting personal with you. as a NBL poster, and then go gunning for Jeff S’s ex-wife concerning who, or what quasi military contractor/ collaborator she once worked for?
He brought it up. I was addressing what he brought up to support his sympathy angle. I appreciate his elaborating on what he brought up, but the sympathy comment he made is still a canard.
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September 9th, 2012 at 5:59 am
Back to the introduced topic – Jeff Masters has written a good piece on how a massive solar flare could leave us gridless
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1206&page=8&theprefset=BLOGCOMMENTS&theprefvalue=0
In a congressional study a solution was proposed that might cost $150 million. Has congress done anything about that – NO
“The strong electric currents that would flow through the the electrical grid during a repeat of the Carrington event are likely to cause melting and burn-through of large-amperage copper windings and leads in electrical transformers. These multi-ton, multi-million dollar devices generally cannot be repaired in the field, and if damaged in this manner, they need to be replaced with new units. There are only a handful of spares in reserve, so most of the region affected by the collapse would remain without power until new transformers could be custom built. …Manufacturers presently have a backlog of nearly 3 years for all EHV transformers (230 kV and above). The earliest delivery time presently quoted for a new order is early 2011.”
So Nature has many way to handle its term at bat and may hit us with several at the same time. Nature will win as it is nature whether a dead lifeless planet or a human inhabited rich ecosphere. We will loose. Too bad for us. Time to figure out how to use whatever remaining time we have before personal or species extinction does us in.
September 9th, 2012 at 6:44 am
With thanks to Pepper Givens and Jennifer Hartley, I’ve posted a new essay. It’s the third in a series by Jennifer about home-schooling, and it’s here.
September 9th, 2012 at 6:53 am
Ozman, I look at anything I want to look at. Fuck ‘em all. And if the PTB want to follow me around on the internet, or surveill me in any other way, good luck to them, they might learn something to raise them out of their wretched, depraved, benighted condition.
I know what’s wrong and what’s right and I’m not going to permit fear to become internalised as a censor. If ‘they’ want to, they can frame or assassinate anyone they wish. They do it all the time, everyday. It’s their job. It has nothing to do with what’s right or what’s wrong, or what’s lawful or illegal, it’s merely a means of terrorising the population. Like hanging dead crows on a fence to frighten the live crows away from the crop.
Personally, I’m not willing to be terrorised by anybody. I live my life on my terms. It was exactly the same pattern in ancient Sparta, the Spartans subjugated and enslaved the Mycenaeans, and kept them in abject fear by random violence and brutality.
Have you read ( any ) David Graeber ? He’s the only person with a decent understanding of the way money works. Almost everyone else just repeats the same stupid dogma that’s been in the textbooks for a hundred years and more, most of which was consciously designed to prevent the masses from understanding what money is and how it works.
I say to everyone, just imagine for a few minutes how your view, the way you feel, would change, if your existence was not defined by financial constraints. There’s absolutely no reason why it needs to be. The fact that it is, and has been all of your lives, means that the shackles on your wrists and ankles are invisible, and you’ve worn them so long you don’t even notice them at all, it’s just ‘normal’.
Money is a con trick, and you’ve ALL been fooled.
September 9th, 2012 at 8:56 am
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Wow! Someone has the Little Green Man in their head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpAANsoG8I
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September 9th, 2012 at 9:49 am
Don’t see the connection there, MB. But anyway…
http://youtu.be/u4YpqRPLIWc
September 9th, 2012 at 10:01 am
And a couple more…
http://youtu.be/YnOoNM0U6oc
and if you don’t know what that’s about, here’s the context, in 8 minutes…
http://youtu.be/gd329uGF_ZA
September 9th, 2012 at 10:05 am
‘Apparent suicide’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalding_Gray
September 9th, 2012 at 11:08 am
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Don’t see the connection there, MB. But anyway…
Really? You can’t see the connection? Someone calls me out as working for one the Intelligence Services and refuses to watch a video documentary about Ted Kaczynski because he believes he will be branded a terrorist, and amidst that, and even from your own mouth, the words paranoid and paranoia spring forth, and it reminds me of a song that was popular during my youth about paranoia, and how it destroys, and you fail to see the connection?
Oh well. Far be it from me to enable you to see it.
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September 9th, 2012 at 11:13 am
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No connection here either, I suppose…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLEmyeQlS5M
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September 9th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Perhaps you do work for some Intelligence Agency, MB. Or perhaps Ozman does. Or perhaps I do. UK environmentalist groups were infiltrated by Special Branch police, slept with the girls, had babies with them, went on for years. It’s plain and obvious that all and any radical groups are monitored. It’s in the public domain.
‘They’ like to neutralise them early, before they catch on with a big following, or else manipulate them for their own ends. Police continually disguise themselves as anarchists and provoke violence and destruction, so they can blame the real anarchists, and say to their employers that they need more funds to fight ‘the threat’. Riots here in Manchester the police were supplying the rioters with molotov cocktails, milk crates full out of the backs of vans, to foment the riots.
Mark Kennedy, Bob Lambert, that sort of crap has been going on for centuries
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2158725/Undercover-police-officer-planted-firebomb-department-store-animal-rights-protest.html
Everybody has to decide for themselves who they trust, believe, have confidence in. And then how paranoid they want to be. Depends a bit on how much you have to lose.
I’m old, I don’t give a fuck. I say whatever I want, to anyone, anywhere. I live an honourable life, I can look myself in the eye, unlike all those cowardly two-faced scum who spy and deceive their friends, wives, children, for filthy money.
What other people do is up to them.
Have you read Machievelli ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince
http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm
September 9th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
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You would agree then, ulvfugl, that those who are Intelligence Services, are scum, wouldn’t you?
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September 9th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
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Excuse that last comment, you did say the were scum in the latter portion of your post. I agree. Does Ozzie agree?
However, if I was in the employ of an Intelligence Service, and I was here to “spoil” things, as Ozzie says, what, pray tell, am I spoiling? What would be my purpose as an Intelligence Agent at this specific blog, considering its context and message? To ferret out terrorists? This doesn’t strike me as a terrorist haven, and I’ve seen no indication of such a mentality. Would it be to inject myself into the blog and try to turn someone into a terrorist, or get them to lean in that direction? If it’s that, perhaps a shred of evidence can be provided where I’ve ever advocated violence against person or property. No evidence will be forthcoming because it doesn’t exist. My message, a theme that is consistent with all my posts, is a total rebuke of this System, not a fight with it. To fight it, as Kaczynski did, is to be controlled by it. It wants a fight. It loves a fight. It gets its fight. I’m not advocating tangling with it, in fact, quite the opposite, I’m advocating disengaging from it, and ultimately starving it before it starves us. Of course, it will starve us, but at least I’ll go out not giving it its demanded respect.
So, in light of that, it’s quite foolish to think I’m an Intelligence Agent, and if someone here is, I couldn’t care less. Come on in, enjoy the show, if anyone happens to be one, and here’s my middle finger as a kindly gesture for all that you do for this planet.
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September 9th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
I wouldn’t say it is quite that simple. Yes, Lambert and Kennedy are scum, filth, vermin, in my estimation. But spying and assassination are as old as civilisation, and no doubt everyone who has ever done it has justified it to themselves one way or another. I’m a believer in Right Livelihood, and spending your precious lifetime doing something shameful, which you can’t speak about, that contributes nothing worthwhile, is a disgrace and a waste, IMO.
However, in the broad sweep of history, perhaps there have been occasions where it could be considered honourable and courageous. Thing is, it’s usually used by ‘us’ against ‘them’, and both sides see themselves as being morally justified. Who are the good guys, who are the bad guys ?
http://youtu.be/xtxr3DuMnxI
I’m not in an ‘us’ v. ‘them’ situation. I’m on the side of the biosphere. Anybody helping forests, or fighting for sea life, like Sea Shepherd, or working in conservation, etc, is my ally. My enemy is all the idiots who are mindlessly trashing the planet.
http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/sea-shepherd-news.html
I suppose I could respect an opponent who fights from a genuine deep belief, but most of them are just the ‘banality of evil’ types, who do it because they can’t think of anything better to do, and it gives them a wage. I despise them. They mostly don’t even realize that the very people who employ them also despise them. They’re just useful and expendable fools, manipulated by money and propaganda, to do stuff that’s not even in their interests. House niggers, Malcolm X would call them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banality_of_evil
September 9th, 2012 at 2:25 pm
http://youtu.be/hGg0QagxAcw
September 9th, 2012 at 2:31 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXGAif4dKhs
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September 9th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
MB:
“(quoting OzMan)’Hey how can you get to posting I have broken some golden rule about not getting personal with you. as a NBL poster, and then go gunning for Jeff S’s ex-wife concerning who, or what quasi military contractor/ collaborator she once worked for?’
He brought it up. I was addressing what he brought up to support his sympathy angle. I appreciate his elaborating on what he brought up, but the sympathy comment he made is still a canard.”
She was working as a goddamn clerk. For that it was OK to have her be killed or injured in a blast? Just because of where she was working? How different is that from drones killing civilians while targeting “terrorists”? Where would it not be OK to do that, under your framework? EVERYTHING is linked to the military/corporate complex, directly or indirectly. Your “logic” is noted in its absence.
September 9th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Every village needs its idiots…
http://youtu.be/FVzt2HSvUis
September 9th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
I’m sympathetic towards that argument, Jeff S. I can’t think of any justification for Ted K. killing innocent people, except that he wanted to get his manifesto published, and widely read, which is what happened. But then, presumably, he thought that would change history, which it didn’t appear to do.
But times change. I wonder how long it will be before people realise that their own, and their children’s, futures are in peril because of the behaviour of a relatively small number of individuals, and then take action based upon the principle of self defence ? Perhaps they’ll just accept their fate, like the jews getting on the trains to the gas chambers ? or perhaps they’ll decide to fight back ?
September 9th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
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She was working as a goddamn clerk. For that it was OK to have her be killed or injured in a blast? Just because of where she was working? How different is that from drones killing civilians while targeting “terrorists”? Where would it not be OK to do that, under your framework? EVERYTHING is linked to the military/corporate complex, directly or indirectly. Your “logic” is noted in its absence.
This is a complete strawman, and really, not even worthy of a response, but I’ll give one anyway. Once again, no one said anything about sympathizing with what Kaczynski did. Ever. It wasn’t mentioned, and it wasn’t implied…until you mentioned it….and you used your wife in the example. So, when I address that, it’s not me getting personal, it’s me responding to you getting personal since you’re the one that mentioned your ex. Ozzie’s logic fails, and your logic fails. In fact, if you really cared as much as you say you did, or do, you would want to know more about what’s behind what potentially could have killed your ex in such dramatic fashion, and that was the reason for me depositing the link…..for greater understanding.
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September 9th, 2012 at 4:14 pm
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I wouldn’t say it is quite that simple. Yes, Lambert and Kennedy are scum, filth, vermin, in my estimation. But spying and assassination are as old as civilisation, and no doubt everyone who has ever done it has justified it to themselves one way or another. I’m a believer in Right Livelihood, and spending your precious lifetime doing something shameful, which you can’t speak about, that contributes nothing worthwhile, is a disgrace and a waste, IMO.
I concur. It’s a matter of degree. Sure, it can be said that everything’s related to the MIC, but that doesn’t mean that it’s all equivalent, or contributes equally to sustaining this System. Take the movie Three Days of the Condor. I have a soft spot for Joubert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJ1EPuYkZQ
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September 9th, 2012 at 6:32 pm
Revolution, she believes, simmers on in Latin America, where the gulf between rich and poor is escalating and she blames, as Che did, creeping American-led industrialisation. “This economic crisis is even more dangerous than any before for Latin America. It’s not only about oil now, the US want water too. Brazil is destroying its rainforest to mine out iron, Mexico is a dumping ground for unwanted waste. This time the land is being destroyed as well.”
Critics of Che claim the photogenic young man in battle fatigues who wrote poetry overshadows the brutality of his revolution. Guevara showed no qualms about killing. “It was a revolution,” says his daughter. “Of course, I would rather there was no bloodshed but that is the nature of revolution. In a true revolution you have to get what you want by force. An enemy who doesn’t want to give you what you want? Maybe you have to take it. My father knew the risk he took with his own life.
http://www.countercurrents.org/cc090912.htm
September 9th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
ulvfugl
Your points about independence of thought and action with the internet are excellent and I have no problem with that view. I wish to state, however, I have not censored myself out of fear, I have just made a line call, and it is not worth it to me to get set up. The ideas of K——-i and others I perhaps would find interesting, but not so there is a record.
Have any of you seen the movie ‘Enemy of the State’? If not have a look. It is not the case that anyone in the Intellegence, or Organised Crime groups has anyone targeted at present.
It is simply that if at any stage you are identified as a player in any civil and or ‘rebellious’ protests, (which untill the 9/eleven events were a civil right), or any action that can be considdered a real threat, then your whole recorded life can be reviewed and used to grant an arrest warrent by a sympathetic judge, and then its all over red rover.
I am not afraid to do these things, just don’t see the need to be caught in a very obvious ‘web’(pun intended), because I don’t need to prove my inalienable right to know everything and stick my fingers up to authority figures. I believe I am past that now. It is very empowering to say and do these things, but I can just go to an internet cafe and look them up at some future time.
We each see our independent view in our own way. After reading Kafka’s ‘The Trial’, Solzhenitsyn’s, ‘A day in the Live of Ivan Denisovich’, Orwell’s ’1984′and ‘Animal Farm’, I am under no illusions about the powers of modern states. I dont’t worry about these things, but I see no need to be hot headed and indignant on my right to know stuff, if its possibly part of a process that can be turned against me or others if I/we become involved in legitimate civil protests, which will need to happen down this rocky path we are on.
So just because I advise caution and am not following the leader, does not mean it is out of fear. Wisdom is its own master. I would not criticise anyone who holds a different view to mine on this, because it is their own call, not mine.
September 9th, 2012 at 9:07 pm
I totally reject your arrogant claim that i have no idea what’s behind TK’s actions, MB. I was around for the show, after all. In fact, the FBI came to my workplace and “interviewed” me about it, to see if i had any idea who “the Unabomber” might be. I was part of a long debate about the anti-tech perspective, of which John Zerzan was an originator, writing in the Fifth Estate as far back as the ’80s. Its clear that you assign people all sorts of positions without knowing a thing about where they actually stand.
September 9th, 2012 at 9:47 pm
Yes, Ozman, each one of us has to make their own individual judgement and estimation. That I fully accept. Personally, I don’t give a fuck. I’ve read all those books you mention.
I say whatever I want to say, openly, to everyone alive. I think that it’s highly likely that this little window of free speech will be closed, because all states, corporate power, authority in every form, fears freedom of speech and wants to censor. They’re in a difficult position. They need the open commons of the internet, for all their marketing and publicity, kinda like the main street in a town, to get trade and customers, but at the same time they don’t want people gathering and discussing and telling the truth about all the deception and abuse that goes on. It’s an arms race, between the hackers who want open source internet tools that permit free communication, and all the vested interests who want to restrict as much as they can. I hope the more enlightened younger generation who are more tech savvy will win, but who can tell ?
Yes, Jeff S., I’m familiar with Zerzan and Fifth Estate and all that stuff. So, where does it go from here ?
September 10th, 2012 at 6:00 am
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Jeff S., your first comment about it was “I am extremely hostile to industrial civilization, but sorry, cannot muster sympathy for Kaczynski.” You can’t accept responsibility that you threw out a Red Herring, and it all led to this. If you don’t want to be taken the wrong way, or you don’t want assumptions to be made, then perhaps you should be a bit more clear from the start, and engage in honest, logical discussion, rather than what you did, or make no comment at all. By the way, have you watched the documentary?
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September 10th, 2012 at 6:22 am
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I wish to state, however, I have not censored myself out of fear, I have just made a line call, and it is not worth it to me to get set up. The ideas of K——-i and others I perhaps would find interesting, but not so there is a record.
You’re posting to a blog who’s author, in no uncertain terms, has stated the CIA assassinated Kennedy, and 9/11 was an inside job. Considering what Cass Sunstein proposed about those who believe 9/11 was an inside job, you’re already in too deep and part of the record, so you have nothing to lose. Watch the documentary….it’s not even a conspiracy theory, just an expose, although one could take a conspiracy angle away from it and further research that thought thread, if they so wished. One such thought thread is that you’re left scratching your head as to how Ted Kaczynski could have pulled all this off from what little with which he had to work, and considering some of the time frames. The possibility exists that he was aided and abetted, and naturally, the next question would be, by whom, and for what reason? Also, of consideration, is how Kaczynski’s mind, and thus his character and psyche, were altered in mind experiments performed on him whilst he was a student at Harvard. Here’s an interesting take on the Unabomber case.
http://www.whale.to/b/hoffman1.html
There is so much more to this than meets the Official Eye.
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September 10th, 2012 at 9:08 am
One doesn’t need any mind control experiments if he/she is a student at UC Berkeley, especially a grad student. The entire curriculum is one massive mind control program.
And given my participation in the milieu which led to TK, i can tell you, MB, that your demand that i watch the documentary, as if that’s some sort of an acid test, is ridiculous.
September 10th, 2012 at 9:43 am
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I’m not demanding anything. What I want, is for you to be honest. If you think you know it all, and there’s nothing more to learn, fine, but at least have the integrity to state that, and move on. For those who are interested, here’s the article Hoffman penned about the Unabomber phenomenon. Jeff S, considering everything you’ve said thus far, I’m going to assume you’ve made your mind up, and are not interested in pursuing knowledge any further as it relates to this, so I’ll end my replies to you concerning it…meaning the link is obviously not for your benefit. In fact, it’s rather obvious from your responses that if what Hoffman says is even half true, the whole charade has been a huge success.
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/scapegoathoffman.html
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September 10th, 2012 at 10:54 am
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Also, please note, I’m not stating that I agree with everything Hoffman offers, especially the Masonic stuff, but it does raise questions, and questions are a good thing, not a bad thing. The Kaczynski/Unabomber case is as weird and riddled with inconsistencies as is the Oklahoma City Bombing and 9/11, imo, and worthy of deeper inquiry. Yes, it’s a Rabbit Hole….but so too are Oklahoma City and 9/11.
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September 10th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
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So just because I advise caution and am not following the leader,
Leader? Hardly. Leading is anathema to me, and as such, I’ve never been a “leader” in the conventional sense of that term. Do I like to engage? Yes. To challenge? Yes, myself and others. To share information, ideas, and knowledge? Yes. BY virtue of the above coupled with my intensity and passion, I sometimes inspire, both to the positive and to the negative. In your case, apparently you’ve been negatively inspired. That’s too bad, but I won’t apologize for your reaction.
None of that is leading, so I would say, if you think it is, perhaps you should take another look at your perspective for potential blemishes.
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September 10th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Okay, I finally got through to the end of the Dammbeck video. There wasn’t anything I didn’t know already, but it was interesting to have my memory refreshed.
The impression I retain, is that every character interviewed was utterly obnoxious and repugnant, I’m so grateful not to have to spend time with any of those people. Not a single one that I found likable in any way.
Putting that aside, the overview as to how people’s ideas about reality and technology have developed over recent decades is very interesting.
MB, whether your niggles re Jeff and Ozman have merit, or not, it seems to me that Jeff’s direct firsthand experience is also interesting and relevant, and I’d like to hear more of how he views things.
So, where next ? I suppose I must click on that hoffman link, and get myself branded as a potential terrorist sympathiser on some stinking CIA/NASA database, eh ?
Fuck ‘em, and all their stupid nasty infantile power games.
September 10th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
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MB, whether your niggles re Jeff and Ozman have merit, or not, it seems to me that Jeff’s direct firsthand experience is also interesting and relevant, and I’d like to hear more of how he views things.
By all means, I’m interested as well. I noticed he quoted “interviewed”. I would be interested why he quoted it. My guess would be that it was more like an interrogation, but that’s conjecture on my part. However, I don’t appreciate the attitude that because someone was there to experience part of something, that they are somehow the final say on it, or an expert because of their experience. In researching and discussing the 9/11 event, there was a lot of that from people not willing to entertain the notion that perhaps 19 Muslim Hijackers didn’t perpetrate the act as the Official Version would have us believe. I have heard it, or seen it, many times over. It goes like this; “I was there in Manhattan that day, and I have friends and loved ones who were affected by the events that day, so don’t tell me what happened and didn’t happen. I know. I was there.”
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September 10th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
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The impression I retain, is that every character interviewed was utterly obnoxious and repugnant, I’m so grateful not to have to spend time with any of those people. Not a single one that I found likable in any way.
Yeah, some of them were hard to take. I loved how the first one interviewed, John Brockman, talking so high-and-mighty and all full of himself, suddenly becomes Mr. Hyde when Kaczynski is mentioned. What an arrogant blowhard. But wow, did he have style, or what? How about that hat and trenchcoat? What a fashion statement he is.
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September 10th, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Ok, I read the Hoffman stuff. That’s too wacky for my taste. Doesn’t add anything useful. It’s too easy to do that sort of thing to absolutely any story, connecting dots by connections that don’t have any substance other than in the author’s imagination.
I agree with him, US media is pitiful and never does proper investigative journalism anymore. I agree with him, that this constantly repeated theme of ‘the single lone nut’, followed by a ‘trial by media’ conclusive verdict, which often doesn’t explain or fit with the evidence, is suggestive of hidden proceedings which never become clear.
But there we are. A person could devote all of their life to Roswell, or Kennedy assassinations, or 9/11, or whatever, many seem to, but I have other priorities.
September 10th, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Interesting podcast
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/62782
Peter Lumsdaine is outreach coordinator of Alliance to Resist Robotic Warfare and Society. Drones are tip of of much larger iceburg that is what we believe is a looming robotic, biotec, nanotec age that’s coming at us, of more and more sophisticated & autonomous machines and synthetic organisms. More than 50 countries posess drones. His organization’s goal is to empower people to understand and educate ourselves and others to develop strategies of effective resistance.
September 10th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
related to above
“Killer drones just keep getting smaller. The Army wants to know how prepared its defense-industry partners are to build what it calls a “Lethal Miniature Aerial Munition System.” It’s for when the Army needs someone dead from up to six miles away in 30 minutes or less.
How small will the new mini-drone be? The Army’s less concerned about size than it is about the drone’s weight, according to a recent pre-solicitation for businesses potentially interested in building the thing. The whole system — drone, warhead and launch device — has to weigh under five pounds. An operator should be able to carry the future Lethal Miniature Aerial Munition System, already given the acronym LMAMS in a backpack and be able to set it up to fly within two minutes.”
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/suicidal-drone-6-miles-away/
September 10th, 2012 at 5:41 pm
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I agree with him, US media is pitiful and never does proper investigative journalism anymore. I agree with him, that this constantly repeated theme of ‘the single lone nut’, followed by a ‘trial by media’ conclusive verdict, which often doesn’t explain or fit with the evidence, is suggestive of hidden proceedings which never become clear.
My sentiments, as well.
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September 10th, 2012 at 9:18 pm
Morocco Bama
For the sake of discussion; you wrote, in defence of your-online-here-character:
‘None of that is leading, so I would say, if you think it is, perhaps you should take another look at your perspective for potential blemishes.’
Well you could have fooled me….
What about here?…
‘Like I said, I can’t recommend that K——i doc enough. There are so many avenues of inquiry that can spin off from it, and it is ultimately much more than just K——i.
Take H—-z v– F—–r, for example. You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary. The interview is fascinating, and opens up so many channels of thought and areas of research and inquiry, it’s mind boggling’…
Well if exhortations are as far as one can go I can’t think of a better one…
Once more for emphasis:
‘You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary.’
Oh maybe here…
‘You would agree then, ulvfugl, that those who are Intelligence Services, are scum, wouldn’t you?’
Now if you want to start getting someone in the Int—–ce services pissed off at you, then go follow the leader.
Face it Morocco Bama, you are a dominator, albeit an intellegent and courteous one.
As for this chestnut:
“He brought it up.”
Back to the schoolyard… ‘he hit me first’, plea.
You are better than that, far better…
However, in the intrest of getting along with you, I apologise if I overstepped the mark on implying you were well nigh an agent of some sort. That would blow my top if it were true, and it would be very surreal.
It is simply not as interesting to be competed with in this space, when what is good about it is a democracy of ideas, and of course an angst at the plight of the planet.
You have considderable perspicacity and that is a highly needed characteristic in these times, so I hope you can forgive me for the insinuation.
I would rather collaborate than put you off, but perhaps it is too late for fence mending.
September 11th, 2012 at 2:53 am
ANYTHING that you do is ‘suspicious activity’ as far as the authorities are concerned. I mean, ‘the people’ are their enemy….
You also might not want to store your zombie apocalypse preparedness kits at Storage Facilities, since the following are but a few allegedly suspicious behaviors and activities that “should” be reported:
Using cash to pay rental fees in advance.
Failing to pay rent for a storage unit in a timely manner.
Discarding clothing or shoes in new condition.
Entering and leaving storage facility at unusual times.
Avoiding contact with rental facility personnel.
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/feds-warn-zombie-apocalypse-buy-emergency-kit-you-might-be-terrorist-if
September 11th, 2012 at 9:16 am
Nothing “rabbit hole” about 9/11, it was an inside job, simple.
http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20111103044226974
September 11th, 2012 at 10:08 am
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It’s now becoming much clearer for me, Jeff S. I’m making the cross sign as I type, yes, I know that’s a physical impossibility, so the cross is being made in my mind, and I have stakes and garlic ready for back-up. May I dare say you consider yourself a “Truther”? Whilst I acknowledge the Official Version of 911 is bullshit, and not the truth, I would never be so bold as to say what is the truth, nor would I be so myopic that I would use it as a litmus test in all things thereafter. It simply is yet another deception in a long list of deceptions, and doesn’t warrant an organization dedicated to it in perpetuity. Your efforts are misplaced. You’re attacking symptoms, not the cause. It’s healthy to ask questions, and research further, but to remain obsessed with one single event that manifests from the Death Star, is foolhardy and unhealthy, and doesn’t even get to the heart of all THIS.
And, how ironic that you would believe the same System that pulled off 9/11 would never have the temerity to pull off Unabomber. That’s the Truther mentality I’ve run across, though, most of the time. Everything is 9/11. Any other event that “just doesn’t add up” can’t hold a candle to 9/11, and is even a threat to 9/11′s cache.
I’ve seen Truthers consistently attack Chomsky and label him a Zionist because he doesn’t acknowledge 9/11 as an inside job, and has asserted it really doesn’t matter when you consider his thesis. He’s more to the root of the matter than the Truthers, imo. He’s not all the way there, because he’s all for Civilization, but at least he gets closer to the heart of how the System operates.
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September 11th, 2012 at 2:47 pm
NSA
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=40481
September 11th, 2012 at 3:12 pm
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They’ve been spying on “us” for quite some time, and certainly well before 9/11. This is nothing new. The only thing different about it is that it was codified post 9/11, whereas before, it was kept in the shadows. Sure, people knew it was happening, but there was always plausible denial. You only serve “their” purposes by making 9/11 out to be a bigger deal than it was. Was it significant? Sure, but so too were a hell of lot of other things before and after, so no, I don’t buy the saying that “9/11 changed everything.” No, it didn’t. The basic unconscious goal of immolation is still in force, we’re just running faster to it.
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September 11th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
“You only serve “their” purposes…”
So I’m wondering who, in your opinion, ‘they’, are, and what ‘purposes’ ?
and I’m wondering what “The basic unconscious goal of immolation …” means ?
September 11th, 2012 at 4:42 pm
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So I’m wondering who, in your opinion, ‘they’, are and what ‘purposes’ ?
Well, ask that question of those who refer to 9/11 as an Inside Job. I try not to use that term because it is somewhat ambiguous, but the “they” is whomever, or whatever, pulled off 9/11. One of the purposes of 9/11 was to sell it as a ground-breaking event that changed everything, and the media sure has done its job in making that so. Truthers do the same, albeit in opposition to the Official Story line, but their zeal underscores the goal of making 9/11 the attractive flame that it is for so many, and so many reasons.
and I’m wondering what “The basic unconscious goal of immolation …” means ?
Humankind, by summoning the Egregore of Civilization and nurturing it until it’s become a Beast beyond Humankind’s control, is unwittingly going to sacrifice itself and most living creatures on the planet in the name of MORE. Immolation means sacrifice, among other things.
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September 11th, 2012 at 5:32 pm
“I try not to use that term because it is somewhat ambiguous..”
Well, you used it, and that’s why I asked, ambiguity, if YOU don’t know who the ‘they’ you’re mentioning are, how can I possibly know ( what you’re talking about ) ?
I don’t see the egregore concept as anything like as weird and occultish as you appear to infer, something that can be ‘summoned’. I think of it as a bunch of individual human egos that get aligned by some emotive concept and so produce a larger collective, just like individual cows might all panic into a stampede. Yes, they are out of control and go over a cliff, or, if someone has the charisma to lead, they’ll follow, like rats and children, after the Rattenfänger von Hameln, Bob Geldof and Live Aid, Peter the Hermit, Children’s Crusade, etc.
So, the American people get a shock, a trauma, that upsets them, they ask who ? why ? and the ‘charismatic leaders’ supply ‘answers’, to manipulate the egregor, the herd, and once those answers are accepted and integrated into the national story, the national myth, they are ‘believed’…. even when they are obviously impossible and untrue to anyone capable of critical thought and assessment. And so it goes….
People are capable of believing almost anything. Actually, that’s not correct, the ‘almost’ is redundant. People are capable of believing ANYTHING. That’s why science, as a project, was so remarkable, don’t believe ANYTHING, only accept what can be measured, tested, repeated, empirically demonstrated, etc.. But like all good projects, it gets fucked up and corrupted by lust for power, stupidity and insanity…. sigh…
Did you ever watch The Trap ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZt2HhFXB3M
September 11th, 2012 at 5:43 pm
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Well, you used it, and that’s why I asked, ambiguity, if YOU don’t know who the ‘they’ you’re mentioning are, how can I possibly know ( what you’re talking about ) ?
Do you pop muscle relaxers before you reply? I was referring to the term “Inside Job”. Quit being obtuse. Cut the shit. What are your thoughts about 9/11? What was it all about, in your opinion? Is it what the 9/11 Commission said it was? Instead of cherry picking what I say, tell us what you think about it. I assure you it will come down to a “they”, so answer your own rhetorical question. I’ve made it clear that I don’t believe the 9/11 Commission report and the Official Story is full of holes….a major fabrication, imo. So, the next question would be, who, or what, did 9/11? That who/what would be the “they” and I don’t know who the “they” are, so “they” will remain “they” until the day I do know, which will be never, I’m sure. However, that doesn’t preclude the fact that if someone plays up 9/11 beyond its import, that someone plays into the hands of the aforementioned, and unidentified, “they”.
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September 11th, 2012 at 5:47 pm
MB:
“It’s now becoming much clearer for me, Jeff S. I’m making the cross sign as I type, yes, I know that’s a physical impossibility, so the cross is being made in my mind, and I have stakes and garlic ready for back-up. May I dare say you consider yourself a “Truther”? Whilst I acknowledge the Official Version of 911 is bullshit, and not the truth, I would never be so bold as to say what is the truth, nor would I be so myopic that I would use it as a litmus test in all things thereafter. It simply is yet another deception in a long list of deceptions, and doesn’t warrant an organization dedicated to it in perpetuity. Your efforts are misplaced. You’re attacking symptoms, not the cause. It’s healthy to ask questions, and research further, but to remain obsessed with one single event that manifests from the Death Star, is foolhardy and unhealthy, and doesn’t even get to the heart of all THIS.
And, how ironic that you would believe the same System that pulled off 9/11 would never have the temerity to pull off Unabomber. That’s the Truther mentality I’ve run across, though, most of the time. Everything is 9/11. Any other event that “just doesn’t add up” can’t hold a candle to 9/11, and is even a threat to 9/11′s cache.
I’ve seen Truthers consistently attack Chomsky and label him a Zionist because he doesn’t acknowledge 9/11 as an inside job, and has asserted it really doesn’t matter when you consider his thesis. He’s more to the root of the matter than the Truthers, imo. He’s not all the way there, because he’s all for Civilization, but at least he gets closer to the heart of how the System operates.”
I reject the label “truther” which is a creation of sites such as Screw Loose Change, whose purpose is to uphold the official story. As someone with a degree in mechanical engineering, i’d say that anyone who accepts the official story is engaging in blatant lying in the face of the laws of physics. And Chomsky not only does not acknowledge “inside job.” he has consistently attacked any efforts to question the official story, in particular the physical evidence. He has even tried to explain the vast discrepancy between the official explanation of what happened to the THREE WTC towers and the laws of physics by appealing to quantum theory and chaos theory, asserting that anything can happen any time.
http://www.dailybattle.pair.com/2010/left_denial_on_911.shtml
I do not consider him a “Zionist” for this, merely a disinformation purveyor.
I have no idea where you get the notion that i don’t think the system could pull off Unabomber. Can you point out where i said so, or else apologize?!
9/11 is the organizing myth behind the current version of the official ideology. It is the justification for the police state and for one war after another. I’m amazed that you can treat it as if it was just another event.
September 11th, 2012 at 6:04 pm
“Do you pop muscle relaxers before you reply? I was referring to the term “Inside Job”. Quit being obtuse. Cut the shit. What are your thoughts about 9/11? What was it all about, in your opinion? Is it what the 9/11 Commission said it was? Instead of cherry picking what I say, tell us what you think about it. I assure you it will come down to a “they”, so answer your own rhetorical question. I’ve made it clear that I don’t believe the 9/11 Commission report and the Official Story is full of holes….a major fabrication, imo. So, the next question would be, who, or what, did 9/11? That who/what would be the “they” and I don’t know who the “they” are, so “they” will remain “they” until the day I do know, which will be never, I’m sure. However, that doesn’t preclude the fact that if someone plays up 9/11 beyond its import, that someone plays into the hands of the aforementioned, and unidentified, “they”.”
Do you have any interest in intelligent, constructive communication, or are you a waste of everyone’s time ? Fuck off with your offensive stupidity.
You’re ‘logic’ is pitiful. You have no idea who ‘they’ are, but somehow we are playing into ‘their’ hands ? What garbage. You expect me to take you seriously ? Sorry mate, you’ll have to come up with something a bit more impressive than that.
No, i’m not going to offer answers to any of your garbled responses, until you show a bit of courtesy and respect, and make some effort to express yourself clearly, preferably with some thought and consideration first.
September 11th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
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I’ll tell you what, Jeff S., can you please tell uvula who the “they” are. I’d like to know myself.
9/11 is the organizing myth behind the current version of the official ideology. It is the justification for the police state and for one war after another. I’m amazed that you can treat it as if it was just another event.
I never said “just another event”. In fact, I mentioned it was a significant event, but I don’t give it the import you do. We had a de facto police state before 9/11 and we had wars before 9/11. 9/11 wasn’t necessary for the invasion of Iraq. If you recollect, the ultimate reasoning, officially, was Weapons of Mass Destruction. 9/11 certainly isn’t the reason for Libya, nor is it the reason, even officially for the ultimate demolition of Iran.
And in regards to the Unabomber, absent any further commentary from you on this thread, all I have to go on is what little you did say, and what you did say was marginalizing and dismissive.
9/11 is indeed a Rabbit Hole of massive proportions. It’s turned into a quagmire of bickering that will accomplish nothing. No one will be prosecuted. No one will be brought to Justice. Civilization will continued its march into the abyss, and 9/11 Truth won’t change that one bit. But hey, continue to fight as you told Guy to do. Another irony, because according to the Official Unabomber story, that’s the same thing Kaczynski was doing…fighting, in the way he thought appropriate, condone it, or not. So much for fighting.
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September 11th, 2012 at 7:18 pm
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Do you have any interest in intelligent, constructive communication, or are you a waste of everyone’s time ? Fuck off with your offensive stupidity.
That’s not muscle relaxers. I’m thinking Scotch. What’s with the potty mouth?
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September 11th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
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I do not consider him a “Zionist” for this, merely a disinformation purveyor.
Is he a member of the “they”, in your opinion?
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September 11th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
Morocco Bama, you’ve shown yourself to be are a waste of time, incapable of serious adult conversation, not worth engaging with. Go fuck yourself.
September 11th, 2012 at 7:37 pm
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I reject the label “truther”
Okay, fair enough. I don’t like labels, so I retract it. I’ve been called one myself. I actually was humored by it because one person that labeled me a Truther did so because I was questioning the ulterior motives of West’s involvement in the break-up of Yugoslavia.
I wasn’t aware that Chomsky had gone to those lengths. That’s foolhardy of him, imo. It’s a waste of time. His contributions to understanding the political system are vastly more valuable than anything coming out of the 9/11 Truth movement, so for him to degrade himself by arguing with it, instead of just saying he believed the Official version is poor judgement on his part.
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September 11th, 2012 at 9:38 pm
The fact that Chomsky saw it necessary to “debunk” 9/11 truth, in particular the physical evidence, says mountains about where he’s coming from. He’s a major disinformation agent. It goes along with his insistence over the years that capitalism does not have an inherent crisis tendency, that Marx did not even have a coherent crisis theory (when in fact it was the core of his analysis of capital), that capital is not a social relation specific to a particular social system, namely capitalism, but some transhistorical category, and that the market can work per Adam Smith’s version if only good people and the state do enough to keep the bad influences in check. His influence has been very destructive in terms of any opposition to the system in the US.
MB:
“We had a de facto police state before 9/11 and we had wars before 9/11. 9/11 wasn’t necessary for the invasion of Iraq. If you recollect, the ultimate reasoning, officially, was Weapons of Mass Destruction. 9/11 certainly isn’t the reason for Libya, nor is it the reason, even officially for the ultimate demolition of Iran.”
Rubbish!! The police state was immensely enabled by 9/11. What there was previously was minimal in comparison, and it was enabled by Oklahoma City, another false flag op. Iraq rationale actually included a big dose of 9/11, for after all the WMDs were gonna be used to carry out another 9/11 style attack, we were told. Maybe you forgot, or you wish us to forget. The “threat” posed by Iran and its supposed pursuit of nukes, per official ideology, is likewise all about the use of such nukes in terrorist attacks, NOT in a simple act of launching the nukes via missiles. This is precisely why exposing 9/11 is so important. Not just a matter of undermining the legitimacy of the already existing military/police state, but also of preventing the next 9/11, which could well be a nuke.
Ashton Carter, assistant sec of defense under Clinton, co-wrote an article with Philip Zelikow in Foreign Affairs in November ’98, describing 9/11 in all but name. Zelikow went on to become Condi Rice’s top assistant, drafting in 2002 the US strategic doctrine which called for preemptive action, even using nukes, against nations which MIGHT pose a threat to the US. Zelikow was also the executive director of the 9/11 Commission whose report was a series of omissions, lies and distortions. Carter more recently has been warning of the “threat” of a nuclear 9/11. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 9/11 is in fact part and parcel of deep politics, the state’s pursuit of secret operations to enable the ruling elite to get its way, stuff like COINTELPRO and Operation Gladio. http://www.dailybattle.pair.com/2010/global_fascist_terror_state.shtml
9/11 is in fact a KEY part and parcel of a strategy being pursued by the US elite to maintain control of the world.
It’s funny how people like you are so insistent that 9/11 truth should not be pursued, It’s as if that’s the next stage for those who can no longer deny that the official story is just plain indefensible, they then deny that the matter is even important. If it’s so unimportant, one wonders why the White House top terrorism official, Cass Sunstein, called for a program of “cognitive infiltration” of 9/11 truth groups so as to discredit and destroy them, and why the media across the spectrum, from CNN and Fox to Democracy Now and the Nation are all so intent on shutting down any discussion of “inside job.”
Who is “they”? People such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, who is discussed in The Global Fascist Terror State (see link above), and the people he works for, such as the Rockefellers. Come on, MB, tell us that there is no such thing as a ruling elite, will you?
No, Chomsky is not in it, he’s just one of the cogs. Yes, do tell us how it’s just a coincidence that people from the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission keep rotating between top corporate ranks and top government posts, no matter which party is in power.
September 11th, 2012 at 9:49 pm
Good comment, Jeff.
“It’s funny how people like you are so insistent that 9/11 truth should not be pursued, It’s as if that’s the next stage for those who can no longer deny that the official story is just plain indefensible, they then deny that the matter is even important.
Yeah, isn’t that amusing. Hahaha. ‘We’re playing into their hands by discussing it’
Amazing.
September 11th, 2012 at 10:03 pm
It’s eerily similar to global warming deniers.
September 12th, 2012 at 1:21 am
Yes, isn’t that curious.
First, ‘It isn’t happening’.
Next, ‘Okay, it is happening, but it’s not important’.
September 12th, 2012 at 4:10 am
.
His influence has been very destructive in terms of any opposition to the system in the US.
Bullshit! I can’t speak for everyone who has read Chomsky, but for me, he was part of the enlightening process. Did that process start and end with Chomsky? Hell no, and I suspect that it didn’t start and end for most people on that path. I have moved beyond him, and his limited analysis, but that doesn’t mean that limited analysis didn’t have, or doesn’t have, value, because it does, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let the Holy Grail of litmus tests, specifically 9/11, tarnish that value. The two are mutually exclusive, imo, and you’re trying to conflate it.
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September 12th, 2012 at 4:33 am
.
It’s funny how people like you are so insistent that 9/11 truth should not be pursued, It’s as if that’s the next stage for those who can no longer deny that the official story is just plain indefensible, they then deny that the matter is even important.
This is a very sad, and pathetic statement, and it shows just how myopic you are. It’s also incredibly ironic, considering the countless hours I spent arguing with people who clung to the Official version of 9/11 for years after the event….until one day, I stepped back and said to myself “this is exactly what “they” want.” Now, I have you and uvula telling me I’m a “9/11 Denier” because I now see it as yet one more Rabbit Hole deception in a long list of deceptions, and considering the more dire things that are discussed at this blog, is just not worth the time and effort. Pursuant to that, I will disengage from any further talk about 9/11. This discussion is an abject lesson in futility. You are not here to share, or to learn, so sharing and discussing with you and uvula is a useless exercise. It’s similar to arguing with Fundamentalists about creation.
You have to love it, folks. It’s like the Puritan witch trials in the excellent movie The Crucible. The town was whipped into such a frenzy about Satan and witches, that virtually everyone was at some point, or another, and here we have Jeff S implying that I’m a “Global Warming Denier” because I’m not a 9/11 Zealot. Simply outrageous…but to be expected. Ozzie, if the counter intel pros were going to do anything, this would be as good a thing as any, don’t you think? To label anyone who doesn’t subscribe to a particular notion of 9/11 as a disinformationist and any manner of description they can think up at the moment to include “Global Warming Denier.” I only say that since you’re the one that brought up counter intelligence.
Alright, that’s enough for me. There’s nothing useful that can come of this.
One past point, though, before I bow out and let Jeff S. and uvula kiss in private. Uvula, you lack integrity, as is witnessed by your comment to me earlier in our discussion about the Unabomber. You said the following:
But there we are. A person could devote all of their life to Roswell, or Kennedy assassinations, or 9/11, or whatever, many seem to, but I have other priorities.
You absolute hypocrite, you, and a weakling, to boot. You state this several posts up, and then magically forget you state it, and so you lack any internal consistency, and therefore lack any integrity. You instead, counter to this statement, jump on Jeff S’s bandwagon and label me a “Global Warming Denier” because I have made the decision to not devote my life to 9/11 Truth or any of the other myriad Rabbit Holes on your list. You have shown your true colors, uvula, and they are the colors I suspected all along.
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September 12th, 2012 at 4:47 am
Hahaha, frothing at the mouth much, Morrocco Obama ? Nonsense about limericks, rules, and now this regression to an infantile tantrum mode.
My impression of you is someone who wants ‘Hey, look at me everyone, aren’t I so very smart !’ and if you don’t get that, then you cause disruption until you get the attention you crave.
Not smart at all, though, just rather confused, messy thinking, aggressive, and unable to conduct a civil conversation. I don’t bother myself with such people, there are too many of them on the internet to permit them to waste my attention. Go write some abusive comments on youtube or facebook or whatever, you’ll find an abundance of similar minds to your own.
September 12th, 2012 at 5:22 am
You WANT to discuss 9/11, you ask what we think…
You DON’T WANT to discuss 9/11, because it’s ‘playing into their hands’….
( who ever the unspecified ‘they’ are, and whatever playing into their hands may mean )
Make your mind up, MB, which is it ?
You recommend that everyone should watch the Ted K. documentary, 2 hours long, and yet you have nothing to say about it, except that Brockman leaves his office with a big hat and raincoat…
And YOU make a fool of yourself, by saying stupid, lame things, then insulting me, Ozman, and Jeff S. and others on other threads, and now it’s all OUR fault for conducting a Salem-style witch hunt against YOU…
Dearie me….
September 12th, 2012 at 9:18 am
My, oh my, MB’s nerves have been touched, cannot handle his own medicine. Too bad.:-)
Chomsky’s deception role goes well beyond 9/11, as i pointed out. He wants people to believe that capitalism is not a problem, only “bad” capitalism is. 9/11 is one big chink in his saintly armor, enabled me to see him as the disinformation agent he’s been for a long time. I started wondering about him after an exchange of letters in ’88-90, in which he displayed that absolute lying about Marx’s crisis theory, but 9/11 blasted away any doubts.
9/11 is not a distraction. It is a key aspect of the elite’s effort to reinforce their regime and prepare for worse to come. Those who would urge you to not pay it too much attention render you vulnerable to future 9/11s.
September 12th, 2012 at 11:33 pm
Morocco Bama
Your question to me:
“Ozzie, if the counter intel pros were going to do anything, this would be as good a thing as any, don’t you think? To label anyone who doesn’t subscribe to a particular notion of 9/11 as a disinformationist and any manner of description they can think up at the moment to include “Global Warming Denier.” I only say that since you’re the one that brought up counter intelligence.”
First, do you accept my apology I posted, because it was and is genuine?
To clarify for you: I did bring up agents for some interest or other, whoever this ‘they’ are. (I’m not going there), not counter intel. To be clear it was out of frustration, on my part, that ‘we’ were getting away from the central concerns of this site, and I am not trying to circumscribe, or limit them.
I’m just pointing out that when ‘we’ discuss the whole notion of elites, TPTB, and players in the ‘steering the System for their own purposes game’, it seems there are some leads, but little ‘occular proof’ of a clear zig-zag map of how it all plays out, and whom, specifically, they all are.
That being so, even if some posters have views on who some are, it becomes a head banging match, which ‘we’, including me it seems, have demonstrated how much a waste of time it can be bickering.
I’m not intellegent enough to keep going with real inside info on who is responsible.
My take is a more spiritual one, that does not obfuscate personal responsibility, by way of saying that the causes of this many faceted destructive machine are Ego based existance writ large, and small, in how ‘we’ all live. Human scale dimentions for social, cultural and civil life have been superceeded by the collective power of ego base self fulfillment, and self obsessed having and getting. The biosphere is FUBARed because of it. I wont elaborate further on that for now.
Even though I have read half of ‘Crossing The Rubicon’, by Mike Ruppert, and all of ‘The Grand Chessboard’ by Zbigniew Brzezinski, and can see that 9/11 was very clearly a part of the Neo-con agenda, but all I can come up with is loosly to, for now, concur with Mr Rupperts broard argument that this wave of civil and social surveilence and control that is arriving is all about Peak Oil. There is no need to control so much if the party is in full swing. As Richard Heinberg has stated, ‘The Party’s Over’ and the limits of economic growth have been well over-reached. Although there is much more to it I dare say, but I don’t think it is going to be much different, no matter whom, and why, is gunning for world domination, or at least subjegation of anyone who can protest or dissent. That is just, for now, IMO.
Anyhoo,
Morocco Bama
ulvfugl
Jeff S
How about we all just admit we can throw slurs and give cheek in the schoolyard just like everyone else. Look, how boring it is, especially for others. Can we just give up on that angle, and just add to each other’s understending, and collaborate, rather than razzzing on each other?
I apologise if anyone was offended by my insinuation of a spoiler attitude, and/or an agent for any PTB. How could I know….?
Back to the details at hand….
September 13th, 2012 at 3:20 am
Interesting talk about the destruction of the Twin Towers by Dr. Judy Wood
September 13th, 2012 at 4:25 am
Here in Japan, we were promised rolling blackouts due to our nuclear power plants being shut down. We didn’t have this problem last year, but this year, they said that this was most likely going to happen. Thus, they encouraged conservation! So, guess what happened? Power consumption went down 13% and so there was simply no need for power outages. And now, it looks like we will be ZERO nuclear and will be, with lightening speed moving to solar and wind. I will be putting up panels in my own home in three years time, if not sooner. But, it was a real mind-number! If you have a freezer of food, for example, you had better start eating all of it, as the blackouts were to be for hours! And this in Japan! But at least summer and the worst of it is over, but this last August, HEAT ISLAND, the temperatures and heat index were so bad that I could only take 10 minutes at a time to go out! Tens of thousands in the hospital for heat stroke.