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The Slippery Slope of the Traditional Education System and Why Online Means Change

Wed, Nov 7, 2012

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by Katheryn Rivas

It begins as a small plastic slide. The feeling, when you were a kid, of sitting on top of that backyard play toy (if you were lucky enough to have a back yard or miniature recess equipment) and looking down, with someone assuredly ready to catch you at the bottom. The feeling of pushing yourself off and sliding down, and, afterward, realizing that the journey was not really that long or grueling, so you may as well go again when prompted.

This is the feeling of being in Kindergarten. You’re not sure exactly what to do or why you’re there, but you know what’s expected of you. And, even though there seems to be someone else in control, the entire thing seems a bit unnatural until you do it, only to find it, after all, completely innocuous.

The modern school system is built as a form of prodding and pushing. There is no choice but to follow orders, and there is no choice for parents but to keep their children in school or at least following some form of state-approved education curriculum at home.

It feels strange at first in those early years. But, the slide is made especially low to the ground, and, once you’ve given in a few times, it feels normal.

Then comes the rest of grade school, the horror that is middle school, and the social experiment that is high school. By the time we have reached the end of our thirteen-plus years in the education system, we are numb to it. We are also numb to what we have learned, despite the quiet murmurs of what’s left of our innate interests.

Some of us hold those interests intact and carry them into the rest of our lives, eventually discovering on our own what we think. Many of us lose them forever and fall in line, doing what seems best, easiest or most productive.

Either way, this image of the tight grip, knot in the stomach, let-go-and-slide-down method to education is just not natural.

Human beings learn in a pattern of growth and exploration. The human brain does not need to wait to be fed information to memorize. The brain can learn much more quickly by following its own unique hardwiring. Tampering with this system only dampens the way we learn best.

That is what’s so intriguing about the possibilities of online education, at least to me.

Many schools today are already experimenting with a model of learning that allows children to go at their own pace and to follow the things that most interest them. This may mean that their thirst for math leads them to jump levels beyond what would normally be taught in their grade levels, while they may need more time in English or writing.
This is something that is barely possible within the education system as we know it today. Much of this is due to simple logistics. It is difficult to track the progress of millions of students on a grand scale and make sure they are getting the education they need. With the advent of technology in the education system, however, these problems can be side-stepped.

Computer systems and the use of the internet may introduce methods of education that are better equipped to prepare our children for the realities of the modern world. They may be able to allow more flexibility and provide more stimulation so children can discover their talents and interests from an early age. Cultivating talents, instead of repressing them, could do so much for any society that the possibilities are impossible to quantify.

This is simply an opinion piece, but I thought it appropriate for the readers of this blog.

Sharing the potential of online education is important. Even though most online programs follow the same structure as most traditional school systems, the possibilities are exciting. I am thoroughly intrigued and hope others feel the same.

________________

Katheryn Rivas is a blogger for Onlineuniversities.com. She is passionate about distance learning, global education and the psychology behind learning styles. She is currently a full-time writer and contributes to many online publications. Please feel free to leave comments for Katheryn below!

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501 Responses to “The Slippery Slope of the Traditional Education System and Why Online Means Change”

  1. Ivy Mike Says:

    Nice critique of the one-size-fits-none institution of education, Katheryn.

  2. Jennifer Hartley Says:

    Katheryn, I agree that pursuing learning opportunities online is largely a good thing. And I agree that the fall-in-line, follow-orders model of traditional schooling is harmful to the learning process.

    there is no choice for parents but to keep their children in school or at least following some form of state-approved education curriculum at home.

    Well, no. We are homeschoolers in Massachusetts, and we’re not required to follow a state-approved education curriculum at home. There are some differences between states in the U.S. in terms of requirements, but I can’t think of any that expressly dictate curriculum (unless I’m wrong about that; maybe other homeschoolers can enlighten me). We will have to submit an education plan to our local superintendent next year when my daughter is six, but the state laws here don’t allow the rejection of that plan on the basis of state standards. Unschooling, a type of independent learning that is not curriculum-tied, is legal and it’s happening.

    Computer systems and the use of the internet may introduce methods of education that are better equipped to prepare our children for the realities of the modern world. They may be able to allow more flexibility and provide more stimulation so children can discover their talents and interests from an early age.

    I’ve gotten tremendous benefit from exploring education methods and content with resources and people I’ve found online. However, I’m also preparing for the day when the internet will not be available. I’m trying to balance taking advantage of all that the internet has to offer with not becoming overly dependent on it (although I grant you that I’m already addicted, as are most people I know). I still believe strongly in the value of establishing physical collections of resources, at home, in libraries of all types, in as distributed and decentralized a way as possible. This doesn’t mean turning off the internet, but creating redundancies where we can.

    I also think that most of us need to step away from the screen periodically and immerse ourselves in the physical world. There can be a judicious use of time in front of a computer for young children, I think, but mostly they need to play, touch things, interact with people face-to-face, etc. Adults need those things too. I don’t think you’re arguing against that, but I just wanted to point it out.

  3. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    In keeping with intellectual honesty and the discussion from the previous threads about meaninglessness and moral imperatives when confronted with the prospect of extinction, I wonder if anyone will have anything to say if they apply those notions to Katheryn’s post.

    .

  4. Cathy Says:

    “Human beings learn in a pattern of growth and exploration. The human brain does not need to wait to be fed information to memorize. The brain can learn much more quickly by following its own unique hardwiring. Tampering with this system only dampens the way we learn best. ”

    Katheryn, I’d go so far as to say that the system actually discourages children from wanting to learn because it is not an enjoyable experienc. I think that this is much of the reason for low test scores and eventual high drop-out rates. However, I, too, worry about the day when the internet is no longer available to us.

    So, Jennifer, I applaud you for pointing out that we need to retain hard copies of our resources at home, in libraries, and other secure places so that they are not lost in the future. Many people ask why I have such an extensive library in my home and it is for that exact reason. When the lights go out, I’ll have the books about resilient living as well as books to entertain the mind (extremely necessary).

    Cathy (she who reads too much and it has made her crazy)

  5. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    So, Jennifer, I applaud you for pointing out that we need to retain hard copies of our resources at home, in libraries, and other secure places so that they are not lost in the future.

    What future? Jennifer, you now believe there is a future? Ben, is this cognitive dissonance on full display? I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt, and call it cognitive dissonance, but the smugness exhibited by many on the previous threads as it relates to their certainty that it’s all over indicates that it’s not cognitive dissonance. If your views are not in line with the alleged consensus in the comments section, then if you want to be intellectually honest, and just honest in general, you should make those views particularly clear rather than allowing the impression that you agree with the pretense of consensus.

    .

  6. Commentarian Says:

    To take this deeper, readers might look into Joseph Chilton Pierce’s books (The Magical Child and others). He consolidates some very interesting and shocking information about brain development and the stages we all go through and how that potential is lost. Our potential is tremendous if early development were better understood. For a parallel further exploration of consciousness and perception see David Bohm’s work (was contemporary with Einstein and suggested solutions to the field equations which he briefly considered). Current educational methods are mostly still quite ignorant, as pointed out in this article above. Consider, also, that ‘source light’ from computers and TV screens is NOT the evolutionary ‘reflected light’ the brain is used to. Comprehension tests have borne this out. So, what children need is tactile interaction in early grades (along with music,story telling, etc.). Reading is forced too early which may actually be partially responsible for early onset of puberty believe it or not (along with meat harmones, and so forth). The Waldorf schools use these principles.

  7. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Commentarian,

    Those are insightful comments, but you said this:

    Current educational methods are mostly still quite ignorant

    Montessori is not ignorant of what you have mentioned. In fact, it addressed these very same issues starting 100 years prior.

    .

  8. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    he gave kids self-supervised access to the web and saw results that could revolutionize how we think about teaching.

    Bullshit. The Web is not the answer. I’m sure this fella would profit handsomely if it was, though. Everyone’s looking to be the next Google or Facebook, and this raises Red Flags precisely because of that.

    .

  9. Robin Datta Says:

    we need to retain hard copies of our resources at home, in libraries, and other secure places so that they are not lost in the future.

    Acid-free paper

  10. Kathy C Says:

    Several issues raise questions here. If we are at Peak Oil and it is all downhill then at some point the grid fails and education by internet is impossible and in fact the education that will be needed (how to grow food, run a blacksmith etc) will have to be taught one person to another. However when the grid fails whichever of the 400+ nuclear power plants have not been decommissioned will go Fukushima and the whole world will be irradiated. Of course that becomes irrelevant if the predictions from Arctic News are correct and we only have 18 years until extinction.

    Thus if these assumptions are correct, homeschooling with an emphasis on skills that might help in the early part of collapse and an emphasis on enjoying what we have of the good life, of a beautiful world, and the love of one’s family is the only option that makes sense.

    IMHO of course

  11. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    Kathy: Yes.
    ==

    Re OP: Online forums like this educate with not only cognitive information, but also the emotional support to integrate it.
    ==


    Morocco Bama Says:
    What future? Jennifer, you now believe there is a future? Ben, is this cognitive dissonance on full display?

    MB, a number of times at LATOC I only posted short diagnostic responses to posts, e.g., “Kubler-Ross Stage 3 Bargaining.” (What a dick!). Yes, it’s all analyzable, but interpretations bring considerations like assimilating insight without becoming overwhelmed, and, like, oh, take, say, your example: that there is no future!

  12. Robin Datta Says:

    However, I’m also preparing for the day when the internet will not be available.

    Good point. Here are some insightful ideas, albeit from a very different perspective:

    The Long Now Foundation

    Clay Shifky: Making Digital Durable

  13. Ed Says:

    I don’t think the prediction of the world getting inhospitable for humans by 2031 is accurate, but I have to agree with Morocco Bama that if it is, education is probably the last thing people should be worried about. Someone born this year couldn’t complete your redesigned course of education in that time.

    Now if climate change produces human extinction, but at a later date, say between 2050-2100, then there will be at least one more generation to educate, though you have to worry about what age to break it to them that they live on a dying planet.

    Like in other things, I don’t think online instruction really substitutes for face-to-face instruction, but it will almost certainly be used more often if only as a cost-cutting measure. In the US, the costs of face to face education have really bubbled.

  14. Robin Datta Says:

    If one accepts ideas such as the dying sun incinerating the earth a few billion years hence, the heat death of the universe or the decay of the proton, any and every course of action is pointless. The same is true in the world-view of Cosmic Dissolution (as in the non-theistic traditions).

    Yet such views do not do not generate any cognitive dissonance. The extremity is at a sufficient remove that it is entirely ignored.

    The impression of vicarious survival through others makes some courses of action appear worthwhile. If one groks that all matter must perish, and with it the body-mind, one can then educate oneself on alternate attitudes to approaching action and work. (The mind here being categorized as a subtle entity belonging to the material realm of space-time-matter-energy).

  15. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    Daniel said some profound things in the previous thread, including:
    Unable to emotionally accept what is unfolding, yet can’t intellectually deny it either.
    and:
    The “act of anticipation” could easily be a surrogate for the meaning of life in our culture.
    ==

    Future

    One reason to not put off fun
    Till a future when work is all done:
    It will mess with your mind
    As soon as you find
    That we’re not going to be having one.

  16. Jennifer Hartley Says:

    Jennifer, you now believe there is a future?

    I think there is probably a short-term future. We’re not dead yet. That could change at any moment, obviously. I don’t presume to predict what constitutes “short-term.”

    As for the long-term, no, I don’t think there is a future.

  17. Ivy Mike Says:

    Salvation will come ballistic,
    A rubbing-of-the-lamp heuristic.

    “Genies of death, patiently awaiting the rubbing of the lamp. ~Carl Sagan

    Carl Sagan discusses nuclear self-destruction

  18. Ivy Mike Says:

    Necessary Education:

    “Terror prevents the mind from evaluating dangers and thinking logically. It develops in two stages, which have been described by Dr. Walo von Gregerz, a physician with much war experience, in his book Psychology of Survival. The first stage is apathy…

    “Dr. von Gregerz has described terror as being ‘explosively contagious’.”

    excerpt from:
    Ch. 3: Psychological Preparations
    Nuclear War Survival Skills

    http://www.oism.org/nwss/

  19. ulvfugl Says:

    Jennifer Hartley : As for the long-term, no, I don’t think there is a future.

    Neither do I.

    “This study quantifies the impact on Earth’s two most important chemical cycles, carbon and nitrogen, from thawing of permafrost under future climate warming scenarios,” said USGS Director Marcia McNutt. “While the permafrost of the polar latitudes may seem distant and disconnected from the daily activities of most of us, its potential to alter the planet’s habitability when destabilized is very real.”
    As much as 44 billion tons of nitrogen and 850 billion tons of carbon could be released into the environment as the region begins to thaw over the next century. This nitrogen and carbon are likely to impact ecosystems, the atmosphere, and water resources including rivers and lakes. For context, this is roughly the amount of carbon stored in the atmosphere today.”

    http://summitcountyvoice.com/2012/11/04/global-warming-usgs-researchers-quantify-potential-greenhouse-gas-releases-from-melting-arctic-permafrost/

  20. OzMan Says:

    Morocco Bama continually asserts there is some consensus at NBL on the near term extinction of humans, and many other life forms.

    That is an attempt to silence and censor alternative POVs on this issue.

    What a tosser viewpoint.

    How would anyone ‘KNOW’?

    Many areas of evidence put forward by Guy, and many others, point strongly towards this outcome, the actual timing is very uncertain, many admit.

    However, Morocco Bama attempts to argue with the ordinary contradictions when posters use speech that contains traditional forms that include ‘a future’.

    Good point Morocco Bama!!
    In fact bloody good point!!

    So ‘my’ point is don’t assume a consensus, and allow others to be syntactically inconsistant, because the problems of synatx will be all done and dusted when the (to many here) ‘obvious’ climate problems manifest in harsher terms in the near term, for all around the world to see; then the speech will adjust, and you wont need to continually point out syntactical inconsistancies.

    The conclusion Morocco Bama is ‘sliding’ discussion toward at NBL IMO,

    i.e. if extinction is agreed upon in the near term, then do nothing different and keep it BAU because what is the point in ANY alternative strategy?,
    sounds logical, and is, but also:

    JUST COINCEDENTLY HAPPENS TO BE WHAT THE POWERS THAT BE, AND CONSERVATIVE BUSINESS LOBBIES, WOULD LIKE US ALL TO DO.

    We had a piece of graffiti on a railway wall in inner Sydney from the 1970’s only removed abour 4 years ago due to some replacemnt work. It was the best piece of commuter advertising I have seen anywhere.
    It read:

    CONSUME
    BE SILENT
    DIE.

    This is not inconsistant with the views put forward by the logical outcome of Morocco Bama’s aforsaid rational as to extinction.

    I ask in who’s inerest is it for populations to do nothing different?
    If one truely looks at this question,
    Morocco Bama’s position aids and abets TPTB.

    Does anyone disagree with my reasoning or proposition?

    ————————
    Regarding the essay-

    The internet is undoubetly a great connector of people, institutions and resources, previously only available by meeting, conversations on the phone, and in libraries and books,(as well as fax and telegram).

    But at what cost to the Biosphere? How long more can that cost be maintained?

    ‘Education’ will never be outmoded by a future local cooperative necessity, because all will need to adapt to whatever habitat exists, and some will teach the skills to survive, others will learn them. It wil pehaps be an exchange.

    Maybe it will truely be a ’round table’ then.

  21. BC Nurse Prof Says:

    Hadley Center For Meteorological Research Technical Note 91
    August, 2012

    http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/p/i/HCTN_91.pdf

    “Claims of a seasonally ice-free Arctic by 2013, based on extrapolating model output, have to be viewed with scepticism.”

    Does not include summer, 2012 ice measurements.

  22. Ivy Mike Says:

    Got a warm coat?

    “A regional nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan, for example, in which each used 50 such weapons is estimated to produce !6.6 Tg of black carbon. Robock et al. used these smoke estimates in a
    state-of-the-art general circulation model to produce the first
    predictions of the climatic effects of a regional nuclear exchange.
    Their calculations suggest aerosols would be lofted within days
    to the upper stratosphere. The absorption of sunlight by the
    stratospheric soot produces a global average surface cooling of
    1.25°C persisting for several years
    …”

    Mills, Michael J., Owen B. Toon, Richard P. Turco, Douglas E. Kinnison, Rolando R. Garcia (2008). “Massive global ozone loss predicted following regional nuclear conflict”. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 105 (14): 5307–12.

  23. Susan Says:

    My 13-year-old son started homeschooling this year (8th grade) doing almost everything online. Unfortunately he is just as motivated with the online assignments as he was with the in-school work he didn’t want to do last year. Our state (NY) has specific guidelines regarding subjects taught and number of hours, very little freedom of choice. A few weeks after starting the homeschooling, I read Guy’s book Walking Away From Empire, and as part of the schoolwork we compiled a project about edible weeds — found about a dozen just within a few feet of our little trailer here out in the boondocks. I also told my son about Peak Oil, and I think it not only scared him but it also made him even less motivated to follow the assigned curriculum. As a result, I’m having a rough time trying to do the homeschooling properly. He prefers to play online games Skyping with friends all over the world, and I don’t have much energy to fight him about it. First, I don’t know how much longer he’ll have the luxury to do that; second, I don’t know what skills he’s gaining from it, but what skills currently required by the system will actually be useful if the economy does collapse? There is a lot to consider, and it’s quite confusing.

  24. Guy McPherson Says:

    Ooooh, “global average surface cooling of 1.25°C persisting for several years.” That’ll take us all the way down to 1.15°C increase since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Yawn.

  25. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Morocco Bama continually asserts there is some consensus at NBL on the near term extinction of humans, and many other life forms.

    Not true. I have merely contended that there is no consensus, and that any feigning at a consensus is pretense. Everything else you mentioned was based off the above false accusation, so it is by logic, false as well.

    .

  26. Ivy Mike Says:

    The regional conflict example in the study would likely escalate.

    1. Hindu and Muslim rioting or conflicts in Kashmir escalate into preemptive nuclear exchanges between India and Pakistan.
    2. A rogue Indian general strikes China which massively retaliates.
    3. Russian communications knocked out by electromagnetic pulses hit 4 4. Europe and China with limited number of missiles.
    5. U.S. retaliates against Russia and attacks China to destroy its nuclear stocks.
    6. Russia retaliates against the U.S. and hits U.S. ally Israel.
    7. Israel initiates revenge attacks against Arab and Muslim capitals.

    Then we’re talking a 150 Tg scenario, in which they determined that:

    A global average surface cooling of –7°C to –8°C persists for years, and after a decade the cooling is still –4°C. Considering that the global average cooling at the depth of the last ice age 18,000 yr ago was about –5°C, this would be a climate change unprecedented in speed and amplitude in the history of the human race. The temperature changes are largest over land … Cooling of more than –20°C occurs over large areas of North America and of more than –30°C over much of Eurasia, including all agricultural regions.

    Robock, A., Luke, O., Stenchikov, G. (2007) “Nuclear winter revisited with a modern climate model and current nuclear arsenals: Still catastrophic consequences”. JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 112, D13107, 14 PP.

    *shiver*

  27. Ivy Mike Says:

    Dr. McPherson, I don’t disagree with the science of global warming or your concerns, but global warming is a socio-political phenomenon, and socio-political trends are difficult to extrapolate.

    The only reason I mention the nuclear winter scenarios is to counter the bleak fatalism imbued by a belief that modern socio-political trends stable, (such as is suggested in the IEA’s 6°C scenario.)

    We’re on the edge of any number of black swans that could easily end civilization and global warming:

    1. Deliberate EMP attack
    2. Biological warfare
    3. Natural global epidemic
    4. Global thermonuclear war (the scenario which I’ve chosen because it has climate studies associated with it)
    5. ?

    So there is some hope that there will be an intact biosphere in 200 years. A nuclear winter will be as grim as the Toba supereruption extinction event for surviving humans, but planet Earth won’t be a Venus.

  28. OzMan Says:

    Morocco Bama

    You wrote:

    “Not true. I have merely contended that there is no consensus, and that any feigning at a consensus is pretense. Everything else you mentioned was based off the above false accusation, so it is by logic, false as well.”

    Very shifty ….
    What you are doing is the semblence of what you say here. Because to a new reader to NBL your comments are seen as claiming a consensus, which you here claim to be criticising, but in fact you are supporting, by claiming the consensus, then sarcastically challenging or pointing out its syntactical illogicality, and THEREBY sliding the issue into dismissing that prospect or view of near term extinction altogether.

    Very clever ‘tuning’ on your part Morocco Bama, and you get points for cleverness,(note to your supervisor- 2 points to Morocco Bama), but in your own view, if you don’t believe in near term extinction of humans, then your family developing a Montesouri school is consistant with that, but pointing out syntactical ilogicalities in others’ statments, with derision, is not clarifying your own view, merely adding to the impression you think the near term extinction debate is ‘doomer’ oriented, and therefore, somehow totalitarian, heirarchical, oppressive and irrational.

    If near term extinction were claimed to be 100% certain, here, then I would share your reluctance to jump on the Titanic, but it is not. How about giving up on overstating other’s views, then slamming them for universally decreeing points. They are just opinions, no matter how strongly held.

    When the fat lady sings we kow it is curtains sometime soon.
    She may or may not be singing right now, depending on who is giving the account.
    A vast majority of scientists around the world agree she is likely to be singing now, but how loudly they disagree on.
    The IPCC was convened to report on just how loudly she might be singing if she is, and how far down the track can her singing be statistically attenuated so it mens nothing to everyday folk.
    I hear her, Kathy C hears her, and Guy hears her, Jennifer Hartley hears her, and many more also claim to hear her too.
    Some claim to hear her, just to be percieved as an insider, then begin to raise doubts and slide the issues in inflamatory and socially dividing rhetorical terms, shifting the debate to emotive moralism, rather than ‘facts’ of scientific measurable reporting.
    Notwithstanding Sciences drawbacks, in terms of measurement, it is pretty good at its job.

    When the fat lady STOPS singing, then we are sure… OK?

    Untill then, I proceed on the basis that it is in the interest of the common good to prepare for a local economy, the gift community reestablishing its utility, and learning how to grow food, and process clean water. Shelter will not be a problem after many homes become vacant due to abandonment, or communal resoursing divides up the productive land and people commune in central domicles, albeit augmented in size for security of habitation and raring of existing, or new young.
    We are going to need that mMontesouri school of yours Morocco Bama, good luck with the preparations there.

  29. Ivy Mike Says:

    Sciences…measurement

    So are you good with the above mentioned peer-reviewed global cooling studies on the event of the civilized hairless great apes lobbing the worst that they can at each other, like they’ve been doing with tireless regularity and utmost efficiency for the whole Anthropocene?

  30. OzMan Says:

    Ivy Mike

    You wrote:

    “… but global warming is a socio-political phenomenon….”

    A bullshit point of view.

    Pure bullshit.

    A gigantic pilland if others swallow this they will accept all the bullshit coming from this paid for troller that comes later.

    Global Warming is a Biosphere phenomenon.

    YOUR EMPLOYER wants it to be perceived as a ‘socio-political phenomenon’, so it can be ‘spun’, disagreed with, and ‘framed’ as a moral or emotive issue.

    How much are you being payed for this bullshit viewpoint here at NBL?

  31. Ivy Mike Says:

    OzMan, AGW means Anthropogenic, or man-made, or as I said, socio-politial.

    So you’re denying now that Global Warming is Anthropogenic?

    You couldn’t think yourself out of a wet paper bag, KOCHsucker.

  32. OzMan Says:

    The consequences of global warming on humans is in part a physical issue, and in part a ‘socio-political phenomenon’, but the truth of GHG increases, global temperature rise, sea ice melting, large amounts of methane release, ocean acidification, and more frequent destructive local weather events needs to be discussed concerning the evidence.

    The ‘socio-political’ consequences and what is colectively done in response to Global Warming rests on public perceptions of the reality of Global Warming, and that is where YOUR JOB OF MANIPULATING DOUBT AND CREATING DIVISION on discussion forums like NBL comes in.

    How much money do you get paid for your views put up here at NBL, Ivy Mike?

  33. the virgin terry Says:

    Katheryn, after the first 3 paragraphs of your essay u had my rapt attention. i have a couple remarks. (haven’t read other comments yet, so apologies for any repetitiveness here):

    are u aware that american public schools are modeled after a prussian system designed to produce economically useful sheeple, compliant to ‘authority’, conditioned to obey and believe. it’s more indoctrination than education. it’s more about dumbing down than wising up. a former honored new york state public school teacher got fed up, quit, and wrote a couple of eye opening books on this matter. insightful and informative. john taylor gatto is his name. others have made similar cases.

    ‘free and compulsory’ ‘public’ schooling is crucial to the process of domesticating people imo, turning us into sheeple, shorn of much individuality/spirit/freedom. i don’t support formal education or artificial hierarchy. without these abominations in obama nation, education could revert to natural forms, involving the whole community, not a small number of ‘professionals’ under the thumb of tptb. then it would truly be public, free, not compulsory. not indoctrination. wising up, instead of dumbing down.

  34. OzMan Says:

    Ivy Mike

    Now you are getting personal, calling me names, when I only criticise your payed for posted viewpoint.

    Human activity is no differnt to the activity of any other lifeform, it is just convenient for you to use terms like ‘socio-politial’, which implies it is moderated by ideas, and morality.

    We are simply very successful at modifying our environment to suit our desires.

    I wont even answer your last question because you are just ranting now….because you have been nailed as a payed for poster of Climate Change denial.

    Who is paying you exactly?

  35. Ivy Mike Says:

    False accusations you make, OzMan, without a single shred of evidence.

    That makes you a bald-faced liar. Or maybe just drunk, from the quality of your writing skills.

    And as intimidated as a poodle meeting a wolf; keep up your yipping, it’s pathetic.

  36. Yorchichan Says:

    OzMan

    For there to be even a slight chance of my believing your claim that MB, IM or any others are paid to disrupt this blog you’d first have to convince me that NBL is a threat to TPTB. I simply can’t see this.

    How long as NBL been going now? Over 5 years. I can’t remember Guy’s recent figures on how many hits NBL gets per day (1800?), but I do remember being astounded at how low the figure is. Given these figures if anyone really believes NBL is a threat to TPTB they are seriously deluded.

    Even Guy has admitted that he has failed, although I’m not even sure what his aim is or was. If his aim was to end industrial civilization there is no disgrace in that failure. If all that NBL is achieving is to convince a few people to quit their jobs and start farming a bit of land organically then I would have thought TPTB would positively want to encourage this: it’ll give them some productive land to take over come the collapse.

  37. Daniel Says:

    Thanks BC Nurse for the Hadley link

    I think this report underscores what a few of us have been discussing in regards to what does and doesn’t constitute reliable research in the face of exponential rates of change.

    For starters, as you mentioned their report doesn’t include 2012’s record sea ice loss, however their report came out within weeks of this new record being set, which would have significantly challenged their reports conclusion, yet, they went ahead and released it anyways.

    Their quote:

    “…..Climate models simulate low ice events (such as occurred in 2007) in simulations with prescribed historical climate forcing factors. However, low ice events of similar magnitude are unusual in the models occurring only once in every 100 years. The modelled mechanisms for these events are plausible but they may not be the same as in specific observed events such as 2007.”

    Sure they don’t!

    As well, one would think that with the title of their paper being “Assessment of possibility and impact of rapid climate change in the Arctic”, they would thoroughly explore all things methane. However, methane is barely mentioned, in fact the word methane, is only inconsequentially mentioned once in passing.

    Odd indeed….

  38. Jennifer Hartley Says:

    Susan- are you connected with other homeschoolers in New York State? Maybe it would help to be in contact with others who are approaching homeschooling in various ways under the regulations that exist there, so that you can get ideas about how to help guide your son. Here’s a link to homeschool groups and lists in NYS: http://unschoolers.com/newyork.html (Not just unschoolers, by the way– but I find it encouraging that there appears to be various unschooling communities in New York, which means that they are probably creatively addressing the issues of how to list subjects on ed plans and how to manage assessments. It does look like a boatload of regulation.)

    The phenomenon of “deschooling” is well-noted among homeschoolers- that is, the period of time when a formerly-schooled child begins homeschooling and adjusts to the different context. It’s a kind of unlearning, decompression time that can seem like nothing much is being accomplished. From what I hear, it can last months. There’s a lot of advice out there about how to manage the deschooling process.

    13 years old is such an intense age. I’m not surprised he wants to play games and skype with his friends. Maybe one of the biggest items to tackle with him is to emphasize that you are his ally, no matter what, even if he finds it hard to let it sink in. (I realize you may be doing that already.)

    Morocco Bama- just wanted to also point out that in your comment, the fifth comment on this essay, you quoted Cathy’s remarks about “a future”, then seemingly ascribed these “future”-oriented thoughts to me. I didn’t bring up “the future” originally. In any case, I think you now know what I think about the future. You seem to have difficulty in reconciling my beliefs with my actions/suggestions; I’m remembering also your remark in a previous thread asking why I don’t just drown my child. Do you really think it’s inconsistent for me to believe there’s no long-term future, and still nurture my child, still pursue learning, still attempt to be as blazingly alive as possible while there’s still life to be lived? It makes perfect sense to me. But I suppose I baffle some people. Nonetheless, I’m reassured to know there are many who understand exactly where I’m coming from.

  39. OzMan Says:

    Yorchichan

    All your pionts are noted, but what more proof do you need than the effect?

    I think their strategy is keep the lid on. Not that there is such a big audience, yet. Cram the discussion archives with emotive jubberish and anyone tryiny to look back would have a negative impression.

    It may be soon that a lot more people engage this kind of material, as Guy gets more speaking gigs.
    It is hard to say.
    Time will tell.

    Ivy Mike
    Accuse me of being drunk?

    How could you ever know?

  40. Yorchichan Says:

    OzMan

    Even if the readership were a billion, I don’t believe you can bring down industrial civilization with a blog (especially one advocating such a passive form of resistance). Most people don’t even want to give up their freedom (to travel) and toys. This applies to the NBL community too.

  41. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    just wanted to also point out that in your comment, the fifth comment on this essay, you quoted Cathy’s remarks about “a future”, then seemingly ascribed these “future”-oriented thoughts to me.

    Not true. I asked you a question, and you’ve turned that around and said I’ve ascribed it to you. Reread it again. It’s a question. And you did answer it, thank you for that. What I wanted you to make clear was that Cathy’s implication that there was a future was not a belief you shared. You cleared that up for me with your response….or did you? See, that’s what I’m not sure about here. If there is no future, what’s the point of securing away books, like the monks did in the Middle Ages? Do you agree that is a significant inconsistency, and that it’s really not reconcilable…unless there is doubt about there being a future?

    Also, the use of “short-term” and “long-term” are ambiguous descriptions considering Guy is quite specific about what he means by those terms. I feel you are hiding behind those terms so you can’t be cornered and called a doubter, especially when Robin in this very thread has established “long-term” to mean when the sun burns our planet up in a few billion years.

    I’m not ashamed to be a doubter. I think what Guy postulates, with the exception of collapse by the end of this year, is not only plausible, but significantly probable. However, the unscientific probability I assign to it wavers depending on the hour, day, week or month…because of that doubt. I also believe it’s plausible and significantly probable that life, and specifically human life, can come through this seemingly imminent crucible, and perhaps a better world is possible on the other side. And that possible future, based on my unscientific intuition, is what allows me to move towards it, with the full understanding I may be wrong, and Guy may be right.

    Finally, I fully understand this, but a couple of things must be noted, and my wish is that you will consider this and reflect upon it in earnest. You say:

    and still nurture my child, still pursue learning, still attempt to be as blazingly alive as possible while there’s still life to be lived?

    The part I find inconsistent, and even rather callous, is that you would call someone who is thinking about having a child and doing exactly what you have described here, immoral, yet it’s not immoral for you to do all these things, and yet, that’s exactly what you’re doing when you support Kathy C’s and Robin’s contention. Do you not see that? It’s alright for you to disagree with them.

    .

  42. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Ozzie,

    Since you seem to know me so well, perhaps you can tell me and everyone else here who I voted for yesterday. Come on now, give it a shot…I know you’re up to the challenge.

    .

  43. Ivy Mike Says:

    OzMan, how long will you dodge and weave around the peer reviewed, published science articles I posted? Do you just piss on science? Or can you actually address peer reviewed, published science articles?

    Give us a demonstration of something other than your paranoia.

  44. Ivy Mike Says:

    Even if the readership were a billion, I don’t believe you can bring down industrial civilization

    Correct.

    Blogs don’t “bring down” civilization. War does, all the time. This time too, and an analysis of history, psychology, and population pressures almost guarantees that the hairless monkeys will lob the worst that they can throw at each other, just have they’ve been doing the whole Anthropocene.

  45. Robin Datta Says:

    Dr. Mcpherson’s decision to allow posts on particular subjects in view of his prognostications about “the future” involves divergent expectations: it is his choice to allow such freedom of expression.

    The behemoth of resource consumption and environmental degradation is composed of individual human beings held together by hierarchy (society) and controlled at least in part through culture and politics. All of these are constitutive aspects of human “civilisation” and necessary but not in themselves sufficient for the momentum of the behemoth.

    Comments may reflect cognitive dissonance and/or attempts to resolve it. Recognition of the conflict is a part of the process. Dr. McPherson’s open forum offers the means to do so because he allows such free rein to the commenters.

  46. OzMan Says:

    Yorchichan

    I don’t think it is possible either for one site to accomplish that ojective, but Guy is doing other things also, which extend the access of this site, and also it is one of many other ‘places’ to encounter critical discussion of Industrial Civilisation.

    My point is that the intention of trollers here, and TPTB, is never to have these ideas circulate if possible.
    I don’t overestimate NBLs significance, but I also don’t underestimate it down the near term track as somwhere that can be useful to many others.

    The ‘radical’ idea that Guy is, (or was) positing is that climate change may be stopped by collapse due to peak oil, which may still happen.

    That radical idea is not found in many places to clearly discuss, and IMO these trollers want keep it that way.

    Some conflict in viewpoints is inevitable.

    Tell me, is what I propose not possible and pertinent?

    Keep the foot on the mushrooms, as well as the light off is their strategy.

  47. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Ozzie,

    You’ve presented a wonderful argument as to how what I’m doing, according to you of course, is in full support of Guy’s assessment on how to bring about collapse of industrial civilization sooner. In some convoluted way, you’ve concluded that my purpose is to get people to consume, and that’s precisely what Guy’s advocated…to consume more and more fuel in order to more quickly collapse this damn thing. It’s how he has justified and rationalized flying around.

    .

  48. OzMan Says:

    Morocco Bama

    You voted?

    And I don’t read minds.

  49. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    You voted?

    You tell me…since you’ve been telling me about myself since I first arrived here.

    And I don’t read minds.

    You could have fooled me….but you do read cards quite well, so I think you can figure this one out.

    .

  50. OzMan Says:

    Ivy Mike

    What peer reviewed articles were they?

    I looked at some you put up before, but having looked at them, I concluded that the timescales and other data was a bit much for my competence level, and I assumed that was the reason you posted them, because only a very few climate scientists with years of experience looking at charts could be able to make an assessment of that data.

    Were the charts complete, or were they deliberately chopped to make the data look like a desired outcome?
    I don’t know for sure.
    Is there other data that make those presented obviously anomolous, and already accounted for?
    Again I don’t know.

    Do some evidence over long time periods work off susystems that are driven independently of larger factors, and thus give counter veiling evidence to the Global Warming thesis, but are not considdered by knowledgable scientist relevent because they describe a subsystem of evidence, and not the net effects on climate?

    Again only a competent scientist with expertise could know.
    BTW, reading the accompanying commentary with an article on the web, linking to a scientific paper is not completely free of bias or spin. Just to state the obvious.
    However, I did look at it and leave it for others.

    That will not satisfy you, who are indignant for others to answer you, whenever you post.

    Put it up again and we could ask specifically any comments, and hope others with more scientific experience can comment.

    That could help, OK?

  51. Jennifer Hartley Says:

    Morocco Bama-

    If there is no future, what’s the point of securing away books, like the monks did in the Middle Ages? Do you agree that is a significant inconsistency, and that it’s really not reconcilable…unless there is doubt about there being a future?

    For whatever time we have left, I want there to be books around. I don’t expect anyone will read them after we’re all dead.

    Also, the use of “short-term” and “long-term” are ambiguous descriptions considering Guy is quite specific about what he means by those terms. I feel you are hiding behind those terms so you can’t be cornered and called a doubter, especially when Robin in this very thread has established “long-term” to mean when the sun burns our planet up in a few billion years.

    I don’t think I’m trying to hide. I find it difficult to put a numeric value on the terms. Short-term is a moving target- I think everything could be FUBAR tomorrow, honestly, or it could drag on a few more years. When I refer to the long-term, I mean that I don’t expect we’ll last more than a few decades. Does that help? I don’t think there’s shame in doubting, either; I’m not worried about being called a “doubter” although my mind and heart seem very clear. I have no qualms with you doubting, or anyone else.

    The part I find inconsistent, and even rather callous, is that you would call someone who is thinking about having a child and doing exactly what you have described here, immoral, yet it’s not immoral for you to do all these things, and yet, that’s exactly what you’re doing when you support Kathy C’s and Robin’s contention. Do you not see that?

    I don’t believe I ever claimed that. I know many people who are having children or thinking about it and I don’t think they’re being immoral, because they are unaware. And I no longer see it as my job to make them aware. I don’t seek to control them. I think for those who are aware, who long to have a child, there is an ethical dilemma; still, I don’t think it’s up to me to advise them. They have their own hearts and minds to wrestle with. Not my job. I don’t think they need to come to NBL and read Kathy C’s comments to have a lot to think about already. I don’t think Kathy C and others are wrong in highlighting the ethical aspects, nor do I think they’re trying to impose their views on others.

    Whether or not I’m moral or immoral by having a child, who knows. Maybe you have an opinion. I try my best to live with integrity.

  52. Robin Datta Says:

    I don’t think they’re being immoral, because they are unaware

    Exactly. Assertions about morality or otherwise are intimately entwined with perceived circumstances. One man’s meat is another man’s poison.

    I don’t think it’s up to me to advise them.

    Same here. To each their own.
    Including, but not limited to, vasa deferentia.

  53. OzMan Says:

    Morocco Bama

    I related the story of my reading a full deck of cards in Nepal in 1990 after 4 weeks of trekking, and asked anyone to help with calculating the ‘odds’ of getting the entire pack correct – guessing for red and black, a properly shuffled deck selected face down, and unseen untill all the deck was done..

    I did that also to indicate how the presumption in ‘modern’ thinking is and has been that it was simply not possible for this to happen, even though there is a 1 in a very big number chance of it occurring randomly.

    The fact that I chose all 52 card correctly, was lost on you and Ivy Mike, because niether of you have commented significantly on this and the real implications of it.
    Why not?

    That ‘reading’ was because I was in the moment for that time, and it was unpremeditated in the way the situation arose. I am happy with all of that, but it is not a skill I can call upon at will.
    I think most people could have the same experience, excepting I have never had an underlying prejudice that it could not happen, and therefore may have been ‘freeer’ then to allow it to happen.

    You miss the general import of my criticisms of your contributions here at NBL. How convenient. That silence is indicative of a well discerning political skill, one not needed here if you represent only your own views, but if your postings are supervised and you are payed according to they disruptive tennor, that skill is needed to not draw any fire, and give leverage to another you are engaging.

    I am not going to spoon feed someone who is good at using the latest modern hand held search gadget, and therefore feels overconfident to criticise all views put up, no matter which way they tend, in order to engage them and then attack thier views so others can also follow, and see humiliating and intimidation tactics in action, and feel they don’t want it aimed at them, so they keep quiet, and don’t challenge you.

    I am more concerned with helping others, you appear to want to contradict others, with a small amount of agreement to seem plausable, and wreck real dialogue.

    Your attempts to recoup lost engagement by bringing in Ivy Mike as an ‘ally’ are so pathetic and see through I can’t bother to denigrate your lack of enginuity to save face there.

    All these tactics amount to spoiling real discussion and exchange.
    That’s either a pathology acting out, a imature but highly mobile and adaptable intellect, or payed for comment viewpiont you are posting in general.

    No one is pretending complete agreement on anything. Everything is up for discussion. Why would you attempt to create a perception of a majority view, a consensus, when there is none?
    So you can give that idea credability by challenging it, perhaps?
    Your exchanges have led me to conclude the latter, but by all means help me and the general readership of NBL understand it is not so.

    Put up or be irrelevent.
    Give us a reason to believe you are genuine.

    I will not hold my breath waiting…

  54. Robin Datta Says:

    I related the story of my reading a full deck of cards in Nepal in 1990 after 4 weeks of trekking

    Ruminating on such phenomena is but one way to go astray. One intent upon hewing to the path must brush off all such occurrences with the same indifference as in flicking away a bit of dust.

    Many such abilities will come uninvited as one progresses on the path: all are distractions, and potentially dangerous ones at that.

  55. OzMan Says:

    Robin Datta

    Well written, and this is good advice.

    I am not attempting to define myself by this occurrence of the deck of cards.
    Such ablities are human, and not indicative of any acrued sense of self importance etc.

    However, I cannot attest to anything of this calibre without being there myself, now can I? and since I was there, firstly, I feel confident of the veracity of the claim, and secondly it contradicts the way most Westerners think, and is therefore a good example of the limitations and shostcomings of the said Western scientific attitude.

    So I question this card reading as an attribute of me or mine, and acknowledge it is perhaps within everyones capacity in the right disposition.
    I experienced it as a receptivity, of sorts, and that was aimple in itself.

    I am not hanging on to this, just sharing it as an event to kee in mind when looking at the deficits of Western Scientism and how people erroneously apply i Science to a greater veracity than it has the capacity to explain and account for.

    Intuition includes the possibility of knowing in advance, even though this is supposed to be not possible according to Science.

    A lot of this has to do with the type of mental scaffolding an individual grows up with, and on topic here, the systemisation of education, which until recently did not acknowledge subjective experience as relating to truth or reality, narrows considderably the potential to harness latent talents in yung ones and foster their unique abilities. We may be beginning to accept ‘new’ ideas, but anyone who studies western history knows many of these ‘new’ ideas were once embeded in the culture and have hangovers in speech, myth and folklore.

    The old stories about the four brothers and stupid Hans, is an example of the four functions and a moment when the dominant function, represented by the king or the eldest brother, is incapable of affording a rescue or completing a difficult task.
    After the king or eldest brother is incapacitated of otherwise unable to do the task, it follows that the next eldest brother has an attempt biut fails. So too does the next brother, who also fails. In despair all cast about for a viable hero and all that is left is the Forrest Gump like ‘Stupid Hans’, who is a half-wit and tries to lick walls and such incomprehensible actions everyone ‘knows’ he is not capable.
    But he has a go and succeeds.
    This is an example of the inferior function being exactly the view or modality that is missing from the kingdom, and has the perspective to solve the problem, outwit the monster or do a difficult task with relative ease.

    In our time we are slowly realising that Intuition and Feeling,. though aparently subjective deserve a greater place at the table, even as we will struggle to survive in the ‘near term’.

    Use every tool in the tool box, IMO, and if your tool box is near bare, start trading for some useful tools.

    BTW, has anyone heard the latest psychic joke?

  56. OzMan Says:

    Here is one example of Stupid Hans.

    The Griffin

    http://www.familymanagement.com/literacy/grimms/grimms125.html

    This also shows how the dominant function often reneggs on a bargain with the inferior function and tries to make it fail.But if it persists eventually emerges as the stronger.

  57. Kathy C Says:

    A taste of the future for the children when all the nuclear plants go Fukushima – of course by then there will be no helpline and their parents will have to deal with their fear. I suppose by then the fear of others harming them along with fear of not getting fed will trump any fears of cancer.

    http://fukushima-diary.com/2012/11/child-helpline-of-fukushima-got-5000-calls-only-in-one-month/

    Child helpline of Fukushima got 5000 calls only in one month
    Posted by Mochizuki on November 6th, 2012

    Late August, helpline for children was opened in Koriyama city for the first time in Fukushima prefecture.

    On their press conference of 11/5/2012, they announced they received more than 5,000 phone calls in one month though they are open only from 16:00 to 21:00 of every Wednesday. Only 20% of the calls were responded.

    All of the phone calls are from Fukushima prefecture, most of the cases are about the anxiety of radiation and inconvenient lives in temporary dwellings.

    20 staff are working but there’s only one phone line. When the line is busy or out of business, the phone calls are transfered to 45 other call centers in Miyagi and all around in Japan. However they commented all of the call centers are always busy and they have numbers of phone calls from Fukushima prefecture. Measures must be taken.

  58. ulvfugl Says:

    Off topic, for Robin, if you have not seen it. Israel Science Foundation, cosmological forests, descriptive catalogue of all known kabbalistic divinity maps.

    http://ilanot.haifa.ac.il/Ilanot_Site/ilanot.html

  59. Ivy Mike Says:

    OzMan, I’m not going to double post. If you can’t find the two studies I posted (Mills, etal, 2008; Robock, etal, 2007); like I said before, you couldn’t think your way out of a wet paper sack.

    Which is how “TPTB” want you to be—docile, stupid, unprotected, undefended and shopping; they hold their own domesticated populations hostage in MAD+NUTS.[1]

    Of course, the Russians[2] and Chinese[3] aren’t quite as stupid. Both are digging for nuclear war.

    Because they’re not as abjectly docile and stupid (both effects of domestication[4] on domesticated mammals) as the effete Leftist morons like you.

    Never met a real life wolf before, have you, POODLE-BOI?

    “The closest approximation to human morality we can find in nature is that of the gray wolf, Canis lupus.”[5]

    _______________
    [1] SM Keeny Jr, WKH Panofsky (1981) MAD Versus NUTS: Can Doctrine or Weaponry Remedy the Mutual Hostage Relationship of the Superpowers? Foreign Affairs. Vol. 60, No. 2., pp. 287-304

    [2] “Nearly 5,000 new emergency bomb shelters will be built in Moscow by 2012…”
    Moscow arms against nuclear attack | Russia Today | 12 July, 2010

    [3] “Underground Great Wall” | Washington Post | November 29, 2011

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/georgetown-students-shed-light-on-chinas-tunnel-system-for-nuclear-weapons/2011/11/16/gIQA6AmKAO_story.html

    [4] Peter J. Wilson (1991) “The Domestication of the Human Species.” Yale University Press.

    [5] Wolfgang M. Schleidt and Michael D. Shalter (2003) “Co-evolution of Humans and Canids: An Alternative View of Dog Domestication,” Evolution and Cognition. Vol. 9, No. 1 [SOURCE]

  60. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Jennifer,

    Your response is distinct from Robin’s and Kathy C’s. I don’t put you in the same league, and you should not want to be in the same league. If anything, what’s been established in my time here is a simulation in Group Dynamics, and it’s not a pretty picture. I’ve challenged myself to feel the tide here and allow it to take me with the caveat that I remain firmly anchored with intellectual honesty….and so, I’ve been assigned the role of troll, infant, nine year old, intelligence agent, denier…..you name it, and this is because I refuse to be intellectually dishonest and submit to the group. It’s why I told Ozzie quite a while back now, that I don’t want to be his friend, that I don’t want any friends here, because to do so will compromise being intellectually honest, and it sets me up for being manipulated, and will compromise my integrity. That’s what I see happening with so many who post here. Because of the power of Group Dynamics and those who know that power well and abuse it for their advantage, people compromise their integrity and engage in intellectual dishonesty because the power of the group, and their position within it, means everything. Of course, you can read that and dismiss it, and that’s fine. Perhaps someone with intellectual honesty and integrity will see it has merit and reflect upon it in earnest. The bottom line for me is, if my reputation means so much that I’m willing to compromise my intellectual honesty and integrity to uphold my standing within a group, however insignificant that group may be, then it’s not worth it. Therefore, I choose no status within this group, and if what I say affects in a positive way only one or two people who will never acknowledge it, that’s good enough for me.

    .

  61. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Reconcile these two statements, Jennifer.

    A taste of the future for the children when all the nuclear plants go Fukushima – of course by then there will be no helpline and their parents will have to deal with their fear. I suppose by then the fear of others harming them along with fear of not getting fed will trump any fears of cancer.

    and what you said…

    Do you really think it’s inconsistent for me to believe there’s no long-term future, and still nurture my child, still pursue learning, still attempt to be as blazingly alive as possible while there’s still life to be lived? It makes perfect sense to me. But I suppose I baffle some people. Nonetheless, I’m reassured to know there are many who understand exactly where I’m coming from.

    I bolded the sentence above because it’s an appeal to the group, and the only way I can reconcile the two statements, and I have to assume at this point that you tacitly agree with the second statement and reject Ivy Mike’s excellent argument, is because this is now taking the shape of a religion, and the brethren here are standing in judgment.

    You don’t baffle me, Jennifer. It’s becoming clearer. I have given you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but as we drill deeper and clarify further, it’s not baffling. It’s predictable….and a shame. You’re intelligent and should know better. In fact, I think you do know better, and yet, you allow yourself to be compromised and used. It’s the same thing that happens in traditional education every day. I see it happening to my son and daughter, and I see it happening to you here, and what’s ironic, is your stance toward traditional education and your inability to see the same principle at play in another group context.

    .

  62. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Ozzie,

    So many words, and yet you’ve said nothing. Either you know me, or you don’t, Ozzie. You act as if you do, and by now, you’ve written my biography, so don’t now pretend that you haven’t a clue. Who did I vote for, Ozzie? If you know me so well, if you know who and what I am, and apparently you do considering the words you’ve devoted to that effort, then this should be as easy as reading those cards. You have a gift…now use it and tell me for whom I voted in Tuesday’s election….or dodge and weave some more. Your call.

    .

  63. Jennifer Hartley Says:

    You don’t baffle me, Jennifer. It’s becoming clearer. I have given you the benefit of the doubt up to this point, but as we drill deeper and clarify further, it’s not baffling. It’s predictable….and a shame. You’re intelligent and should know better. In fact, I think you do know better, and yet, you allow yourself to be compromised and used. It’s the same thing that happens in traditional education every day. I see it happening to my son and daughter, and I see it happening to you here, and what’s ironic, is your stance toward traditional education and your inability to see the same principle at play in another group context.

    MB, I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I don’t understand why you think I’ve done/believed/stated something shameful, or think I’m being compromised and used.

  64. Ivy Mike Says:

    Seems like Ran has figured out the same thing I have.

    “Any movement that allows itself to be framed in terms of moral purity is doomed…If reversing climate change is about reducing personal consumption, then the end of that path is to kill yourself.”

    ~Ran Prieur
    November 8, 2012

    http://ranprieur.com/

  65. ulvfugl Says:

    These private police are carrying guns and they are arresting and assaulting my friends but they are not allowing the press to document their police state and are handcuffing them immediately if they enter the site. Because they are no longer on taxpayer payroll, the actions of these officers are not accountable to the people of Texas. These privately-owned police are following a fat paycheck and are acting accordingly.

    http://tarsandsblockade.org/from-the-trees-their-police-day-37/

  66. Kathy C Says:

    Jennifer, I’ve been ignoring the trolls for several days now. Gets easier after time, although they work hard to drag people back in. One trick is to purposely state that you hold a view you do not hold. It seems that you have to straighten them out but what they have done is hooked you into the argument that they will never let you win.

    This reminds me of my brother who told me once that the wife he divorced was just like our Mom. He said “I married my mother”. I asked him why he did that. He said “I thought I could win with her”. Of course one of the main traits our mother exhibited was that she would NEVER let you win. I won however by leaving home and not returning. It was the only win I could ever have with her. Refusing to respond is the only way to win with the trolls. I don’t know if they are paid to disrupt the site or are managing to be so obnoxious all on their own, but it doesn’t matter.

    Something to do while waiting for collapse – ignore the trolls and watch them sputter and spit as they desperately try to hook you in. :) Join me in the fun.

  67. Michael Irving Says:

    I’d like to go off topic and mention something about education and liberals.

    It seems to me that the results of “education” have recently been put on display for anyone who cares to look. I’m referring to California Prop 37 on labeling GMO foods. During the 5 or so days prior to Tuesday’s election there was a swing of 25%, from approximately 67% in favor to only 42% in favor. It appears that a huge media buy is the only thing responsible for the change (and this on an issue that other polls suggest is supported by up to 90% of the people in the US). The opposition, by dumping huge amounts of money into the campaign ($45-48 million opposed vs $9 million in favor) were able to cloud the issue and cause such a huge percentage of people to vote against what they previously perceived to be in their own self interest.

    So, what does this have to do with education? I think it has become abundantly clear that the people here in the US can be easily (if you have the money) manipulated into voting to support of anything TPTB want. The legacy of Joseph Goebbels is alive and well and living in the USA.

    So, what does this have to do with liberals? Ivy Mike noted that “the leftist is motivated less by distress at society’s ills than by the need to satisfy his drive for POWER by imposing his solutions on society.” I’ll counter by noting that both in the AGW issue and in the GMO Prop 37 vote it is the self-styled conservatives who are choosing the path of species annihilation. They are the block who consistently identify with the Koch brothers and Monsanto, i.e. global warming is a myth and GMOs are good for you.

    Michael Irving

  68. Bernhard Says:

    O.T. entirely. And then maybe not so. Point is “cluster headaches”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/magazine/how-psychedelic-drugs-can-help-patients-face-death.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Ah yes, maybe this. When the talk comes to “insurance companies and how they might be interested”, am utterly disgusted.

    Peace

  69. ulvfugl Says:

    Thanks for pointing to that, Bernhard, it’s fairly old news to me, I have plenty of psilocybin mushrooms freely available, but although they work for some people’s CH, they don’t work for mine. Seems like nothing else does either, since zolmitriptan stopped working, having now tried Prednisolone, Sodium Valproate, Carbamazapine, all useless. Zolmitriptans work again after a period, but I have not been off long enough to break the tolerance, so it soon returns and then they actually make the CH much worse :-(
    IMHO, everyone who wants to should try magic mushrooms anyway, dying or not, as a purely therapeutic means of ‘waking up’ to being alive, a lot more pleasant and a lot less dangerous than e.g. alcohol.

  70. BC Nurse Prof Says:

    Daniel: Yes, there are problems and suspicions about the Hadley Centre report now. I wonder what they will report after this summer’s drastic melting.

    I’m systematically going through the references for each prediction of X degree C warming by X year. Some are updated, some are not.

    Kathy C: Yes, I’m not reading the trolls and not responding to them, as well. It works wonders. Takes a lot of psychic work in the beginning, but gets a lot easier. Nothing they post is the least bit interesting, anyway.

    And speaking of education, Ivan Illich, “Deschooling Society” is an excellent book.

  71. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Michael Irving, looked at from a European perspective, there’s no such thing in USA as ‘leftist’, there’s just extreme right and slightly less extreme right… yes, education would be good, but all too little and too late.

  72. Ivy Mike Says:

    Kathy C has been bumptiously ignoring my critique of her anti-choice rhetoric that matches the extremism of the other anti-choice fundamentalists:

    • CONFLATING REPRODUCTIVE CHOICE WITH COERCIVE CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR

    (A) “the unborn…no choice…forced” ~Kathy C

    (B) “the baby has no choice” ~jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/abortion_is_murder.htm

    • DIFFERENT REPRODUCTIVE CHOICE IS IMMORAL

    (A) “the only moral question left” ~Kathy C

    (B) “…the Pre-eminent Moral Issue.” ~The National Catholic Register

    • GROUP CONTROL OF SEXUAL BEHAVIOR

    (A) “stick to abstinence…give up your biological imperative” ~Kathy C

    (B) “Bristol Palin on Abstinence” ~christianitytoday.com

  73. Ivy Mike Says:

    BC PROF: I’m not reading…

    “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” William Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act III, scene II)

    Especially when they quote me later. Now thats Funny. Every. Day.

    Anyway, keep developing that willful ignorance, “professor.” LOL!

    Did you take your ignorance cues from the intelligent design creationist crowd? They don’t read either, and mighty proud of it!

  74. Ivy Mike Says:

    education would be good

    Need better compliance? Now that’s empire-think.

    /wiki/Reeducation_camp

    “Leftism is collectivist; it seeks to bind together the entire world (both nature and the human race) into a unified whole. But this implies management…”

    ~the extremist environmentalist
    The Danger of Leftism
    Industrial Society and Its Future

    http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fc-industrial-society-and-its-future

  75. Ivy Mike Says:

    Police State is redundant.

    (Civilization) State Society always has police.
    /wiki/Police#Ancient_world

    Etymological Lesson of the Day:

    POLIs = City-state
    POLIce = City enforcement class
    POLItics = business of the City
    POLIcy = business of the City

  76. Ivy Mike Says:

    “conservatives…Monsanto”

    Another Leftard myth.

    The Unholy Alliance: Monsanto, Dupont & Obama
    Huffington Post

    Obama appoints Monsanto shill Tom Vilsack to USDA chief
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMWAzH9P728

    Monsanto Contributions to Federal Candidates
    House of Representatives (2010)
    Total to Democrats: $108,499
    Total to Republicans: $91,500
    [Center for Responsive Politics]

  77. Bernhard Says:

    Ivy.
    What are you on about. Leftist or rightist or any thing somewhere else in between. Used to consider myself left, in my special way some long time ago.
    Now I tell you it’s all bull, be it left or right or anything else in between. We are killing Pacha Mama and have no idea what we are doing and no way to change. That is what matters and nothing else.

    Peace.

  78. Robin Datta Says:

    “I do not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. -Voltaire

    “Even silence is an answer”

    “Let us be silent, that we may hear the whispers of the gods.” ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Saying nothing…sometimes says the most. ~ Emily Dickinson

  79. Ivy Mike Says:

    Ted K.’s critique of Leftism has helped me identify several Leftist behaviors—authoritarianism as strident as any conservitard’s—observed here that were previously baffling me.

    So when I see a typical leftist control-freak behavior, I quote ol’ Ted’s take on it. He was an extremist environmentalist from leftist academia, so who better could critique leftists, and the material sources from Anarchist Library, so everything’s kosher.

    I’m just lucky to have stumbled upon it, Bernhard.

    Pertinent sections of his essay are as follows:

    • The psychology of modern leftism
    • Feelings of inferiority
    • Oversocialization
    • The danger of leftism

    Industrial Society and Its Future
    Ted Kaczynski (1995)

    http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fc-industrial-society-and-its-future

  80. Robin Datta Says:

    Copy from:

    One person – plagiarism
    Ten persons – topical review
    Hundred persons – synopsis
    Thousand persons – literature review

    And on the other hand:

    The number of references proffered varies inversely with the depth of understanding.

  81. Ivy Mike Says:

    “But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. “Good heavens! listen to the voice of an innocent child,” said the father, and one whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people. That made a deep impression upon the emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought to himself, “Now I must bear up to the end.” And the chamberlains walked WITH STILL GREATER DIGNITY, as if they carried the train which did not exist.

    ~Hans Christian Andersen
    The Emperor’s New Suit (1837)

  82. Bernhard Says:

    Ivy
    Think I’m beginning to understand. There’s no more bitter enemy towards a smoker than a used to be smoker. Some kind of self- reflection. Maybe?

    Peace. And good night for now.

  83. Ivy Mike Says:

    Domesticated humans and domesticated dogs have worked together to kill-off wild humans and wolves.

    Then a wild human shows up. The over-socialized poodles bark furiously, wetting their tails.

    Homo Homini Lupus. I AM THE WOLF.

    “The closest approximation to human morality we can find in nature is that of the gray wolf, Canis lupus.”

    ~Wolfgang M. Schleidt and Michael D. Shalter (2003) “Co-evolution of Humans and Canids: An Alternative View of Dog Domestication.” Evolution and Cognition. Vol. 9, No. 1 [SOURCE]

  84. Ivy Mike Says:

    Hyperactive kids = “good hunters.”

    Distractibility – their constant scanning would ensure they wouldn’t miss anything
    Impulsivity – their ability to make instant decisions and to act on them would guarantee they’d be able to react to high-stress and response-demanding situations
    Need for high levels of stimulation – their love of stimulation would cause them to enjoy the hunting world in the first place.

    Very steady, stable, classroom-capable kids = “good farmers.”

    We don’t need no education.
    We don’t need no school control.
    Dark sarcasm in the classroom.
    Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone.

  85. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    MB, I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I don’t understand why you think I’ve done/believed/stated something shameful, or think I’m being compromised and used.

    Alright, fine, you don’t understand. I provided the water and you’re not drinking. That’s cool.

    Let me ask you, though. Is your husband aware of your views as stated here? Was your husband part of your decision to not have another child? If your husband shares your views and was part of your decision to not have another child, why is he still employed as a professor of engineering? Are your so-called friends aware of your views as stated here? Are they aware of Kathy C’s harsh views indicated by her harsh rhetoric related to children and having children at this time? Do you live in separate worlds, and have you created a compartmentalized existence, whereby what you say here is very distinct from what you say in other parts of your off-line life? Are you aware of group dynamics when you read and post to this forum? Is it that you don’t understand, or does that response really mean you don’t want to understand? If you don’t want to understand, it’s alright, I understand that, and we can just let it go.

    And finally, this is not an argument, Jennifer, despite what Kathy C says. I don’t want to win anything, I just want to think and discuss without having to abide the group, but if one of us is doing that, abiding the group, then it makes honest discussion impossible. Your next response, if there is one considering Kathy C’s latest admonition to you, will tell me if you’re willing to do that, or not.

    .

  86. Robin Datta Says:

    “The aim of argument, or of discussion, should be not victory, but progress” – Joseph Joubert Pensées

  87. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    “When I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself”
    Billy Graham

    .

  88. Ivy Mike Says:

    Robin: aim of argument
    Kathy C: ignore
    BC “Prof”: I’m not reading

    So what “argument” are you talking of, Robin? Shall we begin your version of “progress” again?

    Or maybe trembling poodle domesticates with piss running down their legs are just sore losers.

    Anyway, keep barking, Robin.

    Stalked in the forest, too close to hide
    I’ll be upon you by the moonlight side
    Do do do do do do do dodo dododo dodo
    High blood drumming on your skin, it’s so tight
    You feel my heat, I’m just a moment behind
    Do do do do do do do dodo dododo dodo

    In touch with the ground
    I’m on the hunt I’m after you
    A scent and a sound, I’m lost and I’m found
    And I’m hungry like the wolf

    Duran Duran – “Hungry Like the Wolf”

  89. Ivy Mike Says:

    Are George Thorogood and Billy Graham the same, MB? Woohoo! ;)

    Jesus won’t you fucking whistle! Why can’t we not be sober? . ♪

    “Very bright” British children grow up to consume alcohol nearly one full standard deviation more frequently than their “very dull” classmates.
    ~Why Intelligent People Drink More Alcohol | Psychology Today | October 10, 2010

  90. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Are George Thorogood and Billy Graham the same, MB? Woohoo! ;)

    That’s the answer I got when I consulted the kabbalistic divinity maps. ;-).

    .

  91. Ivy Mike Says:

    Al’lah and al’cohol are never far apart, sahibi. Thus the prohibitions.

    “I guess it’s just God’s way of making me pay.” ~Smile Empty Soul – “Bottom Of The Bottle

    Billy’s alright, he’s a closet Universalist anyway, which has the Fundies’ panties in a bunch lately. ;)

    When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: “Those are decisions only the Lord will make. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have.”

    ~Newsweek Magazine, August 14, 2006

  92. Michael Irving Says:

    ulvfugl,

    Re: no leftist in the USA–

    Sad but true. Of course there are some but they are few and far between.

    Michael Irving

  93. Michael Irving Says:

    @ Ivy Mike

    Yes on Prop 37= $9,000,000

    Monsanto–No on Prop 37 = $8,100,000

  94. BC Nurse Prof Says:

    BTW, the Google Analytics on this page might not be correct. I’m sure many people have installed Ghostery and are not counted.

  95. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Billy’s alright, he’s a closet Universalist anyway, which has the Fundies’ panties in a bunch lately. ;)

    I almost put the Dalai Lama, and probably should have considering how much he’s adored by what passes for the “Left” in the U.S. This now deceased, highly intelligent British iconoclast and infamous lush (per the Psychology Today article) didn’t think too highly of Billy, and he also didn’t think too highly of Leftists and/or Liberals.

    .

  96. Ivy Mike Says:

    “The leftist is oriented toward large scale collectivism.” ~the extremist environmentalist, The danger of leftism: Industrial Society and Its Future

    Why would anybody be for large scale anything? Large scale is the whole problem.

    To be for Leftist large scale collectivism is environmentally equivalent to being for Rightist large scale capitalism. The biosphere can’t tell the difference of how the ownership of the Hammer (industry) and Sickle (agriculture) is socially controlled.

  97. Morocco Bama Says:

    .

    Why would anybody be for large scale anything? Large scale is the whole problem.

    To be for Leftist large scale collectivism is environmentally equivalent to being for Rightist large scale capitalism. The biosphere can’t tell the difference of how the ownership of the Hammer (industry) and Sickle (agriculture) is socially controlled.

    Exactly. I have been saying this for many years now, and I’ve been viciously attacked for saying it. And, I arrived at this conclusion having not read Kaczynski.

    By the way, Ivy Mike, have you seen the excellent German documentary about Kaczynski that I deposited here a couple of months prior? If not, I can find the link for you. Let me know.

    .

  98. Ivy Mike Says:

    Leftist collectivism is the opposite of individualistic and egalitarian (“all men are created equal”) Band/Tribal sociopolitical typology.

    Band and Tribal individuals are like “Lone Wolves” (a completely unscientific derogatory term for individualists) who cooperate, just as wolves naturally do.

    Service dispatches the false view of Marx about our “savage” (dwellers of the woods) forebearers.

    “Historically, people in non-state [band/tribal] societies are relatively autonomous and sovereign. They generate their own subsistence with little or no assistance from outside sources. They bow to no external political leaders. Nor are they routinely exploited by outsiders.”

    ~Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.

    “The closest approximation to human morality we can find in nature is that of the gray wolf, Canis lupus…Wolves’ ability to cooperate in a variety of situations, not only in well coordinated drives in the context of attacking prey, carrying items too heavy for any one individual, provisioning not only their own young but also other pack members, baby sitting, etc., is rivaled only by that of human societies.”

    ~Wolfgang M. Schleidt and Michael D. Shalter (2003) “Co-evolution of Humans and Canids: An Alternative View of Dog Domestication,” Evolution and Cognition. Vol. 9, No. 1

    Leftist Collectivists are as much a problem as Capitalist agrandizers.