As Derrick Jensen points out, this “culture as a whole and most of its members are insane.” I continue to be surprised at the number of people who believe in infinite growth on a finite planet. I continue to be amazed at the number of people who believe a politician cares about them, and that their favorite politician will act in their best interests. I continue to be surprised at the number of people who actually believe in the political process. I continue to be amazed at the number of people who support civilization, knowing it is killing us all. I’m even more surprised, though, at the number of people who claim ignorance about the costs and consequences of industrial civilization.
As pointed out by French author and Nobelist in literature André Gide: “Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.” So, here I go, saying it again.
Apparently I’m a very slow learner. It’s a bad, sad time. I hate this culture.
It’s worse than all of the above, though. There are a significant number of people who believe we can continue the omnicide, and that doing so is a good idea. Consider, for example, proponents of the Third Industrial Revolution.
The five pillars of the Third Industrial Revolution infrastructure are listed below. After pasting a brief description directly from Wikipedia (in italics), I dismantle each of the pillars.
1. Shifting to Renewable Energy: Renewable forms of energy — solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, ocean waves, and biomass — make up the first of the five pillars of the Third Industrial Revolution. While these energies still account for a small percentage of the global energy mix, they are growing rapidly as governments mandate targets and benchmarks for their widespread introduction into the market and their falling costs make them increasingly competitive.
“Renewable” sources of energy are derivatives of oil. Oil is the master material. The availability and price of oil control every other “resource.” I’ve pointed out the absurdity and hopelessness of switching the extra-oil sources here, here, here, here, here, and here (in chronological order).
2. Buildings as Power Plants: New technological breakthroughs make it possible, for the first time, to design and construct buildings that create all of their own energy from locally available renewable energy sources, allowing us to reconceptualize the future of buildings as “power plants”. The commercial and economic implications are vast and far reaching for the real estate industry and, for that matter, Europe and the world. In 25 years from now, millions of buildings — homes, offices, shopping malls, industrial and technology parks — will be constructed to serve as both “power plants” and habitats. These buildings will collect and generate energy locally from the sun, wind, garbage, agricultural and forestry waste, ocean waves and tides, hydro and geothermal — enough energy to provide for their own power needs as well as surplus energy that can be shared.
First, see my comment above regarding “renewable” energy sources. They are a well-promoted myth. Second, consider if you will, the reality of our collective situation 25 years from now. If human beings persist on this planet — and that’s a significant if, based on the various paths by which we are vigorously pursuing human extinction — then it’s difficult to imagine a scenario that includes an industrial economy at the scale of the globe. We can have an industrial economy or we can have a living planet, but we cannot have both over another quarter century.
3. Deploying Hydrogen and other storage technologies in every building and throughout the infrastructure to store intermittent energies. To maximize renewable energy and to minimize cost it will be necessary to develop storage methods that facilitate the conversion of intermittent supplies of these energy sources into reliable assets. Batteries, differentiated water pumping, and other media, can provide limited storage capacity. There is, however, one storage medium that is widely available and can be relatively efficient. Hydrogen is the universal medium that “stores” all forms of renewable energy to assure that a stable and reliable supply is available for power generation and, equally important, for transport.
As a carrier of energy — but definitely not a source — hydrogen is neither stable nor reliable. The notion of stability is dismissed with a single word: Hindenburg. The hype about hydrogen is extreme and extremely ridiculous.
Transporting hydrogen is prohibitively expensive and requires distillates of crude oil. In addition, automakers will not make hydrogen fuel-cell cars until the hydrogen infrastructure is in place, and the infrastructure will not appear until there are a sufficient number of fuel-cell cars on the road.
4. Using Internet technology to transform the power grid of every continent into an energy sharing intergrid that acts just like the Internet. The reconfiguration of the world’s power grid, along the lines of the internet, allowing businesses and homeowners to produce their own energy and share it with each other, is just now being tested by power companies in Europe. The new smart grids or intergrids will revolutionize the way electricity is produced and delivered. Millions of existing and new buildings — homes, offices, factories—will be converted or built to serve as “positive power plants” that can capture local renewable energy — solar, wind, geothermal, biomass, hydro, and ocean waves — to create electricity to power the buildings, while sharing the surplus power with others across smart intergrids, just like we now produce our own information and share it with each other across the Internet.
Never mind the endless hopium associated with producing “renewable” energy for more than seven billion people. Never mind the war-based industrial economy of the world’s sole remaining superpower. If we’re counting on technology currently under testing in Europe, we’re also assuming Europe will exist as a political entity for a long time. We’re also assuming Europeans will continue to play nice with each other as well as people in other countries. The very idea of surplus power is being revealed as a horrifically bad joke as the Middle East and northern Africa come under daily attack from several more-industrialized nations.
5. Transitioning the transport fleet to electric, plug in and fuel cell vehicles that can buy and sell electricity on a smart continental interactive power grid. The electricity we produce in our buildings from renewable energy will also be used to power electric plug-in cars or to create hydrogen to power fuel cell vehicles. The electric plug in vehicles, in turn, will also serve as portable power plants that can sell electricity back to the main grid.
Car culture is a huge source of many of our worst problems. Cheering for the never-ending continuation of car culture is a death sentence for the living planet. In addition, as indicated above, transporting hydrogen is unsafe, expensive, and dependent upon distillates of crude oil. And then there’s that chicken-and-egg issue associated with construction of infrastructure to support hydrogen fuel-cell cars.
When these five pillars come together, they make up an indivisible technological platform — an emergent system whose properties and functions are qualitatively different from the sum of its parts. In other words, the synergies between the pillars create a new economic paradigm that can transform the world.
When these five pillars of sand come together, they make up an undistinguished pile of dysfunctional hopium — a pile of sand whose properties and functions are qualitatively and quantitatively irrelevant to the industrial economy. In other words, the synergies between the meaningless pillars create a new pile of false hope for those who wish to continue destroying the living world. Fortunately, the hopium is running out.
Contrary to conventional wisdom among civilized humans, we don’t need an industrial economy to survive. In fact, all evidence indicates the opposite is true, yet we keep cheering for this culture of death, cheering for continued destruction of all we need for our survival. Insanity has won, proving Ralph Waldo Emerson correct: “The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.”
_________________
This essay is permalinked at Plan B Economics, The Refreshment Center, Island Breath, Seemorerocks, Market Clues (edited), and at Exopermaculture (with other information at the latter site).
November 17th, 2012 at 10:12 am
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Great essay, and I agree with everything you said….except the “amazed” and “surprised” part. I’ve stated it before, and I’ll state it again, despite using the words on rare occasions, I am neither amazed nor surprised by anything these days.
Also, I’m a bit forlorn that Sosebee never interviewed me for his latest film. I really thought it was going to be my Big Break. Time’s running out for my chance at the Big Break. I’m beginning to think it’s in the cards for me.
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November 17th, 2012 at 10:35 am
Someone ought to come up with a snappy name for the ‘In X number of years we will have…’ syndrome, which pops up everywhere, without any substantive support. Seems just like a Santa Claus wish list…
I have not checked this, but seem to remember, hydrogen atoms are extremely small and can leak through most containment materials.
November 17th, 2012 at 10:41 am
“443 nuclear power plants melt down catastrophically…destroy every terrestrial organism” ~transitionvoice
Increased cancer, yes. Increased genteic defects, yes. A horrible catastrophe, yes.
But kill all life on earth? Negative.
A text “The Medical Implications of Nuclear War” (1986) published by the Institute for Medicine, National Academy of Sciences extensively covers the scenario of direct hits on “nuclear fuel cycle facilities.”
Why does everybody have to exaggerate to get their point across?
November 17th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Here’s a snappy name for all those civilized humans who fucked over Mother Nature: Motherfuckers.
November 17th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
The Spirit in the Gene: Humanity’s Proud Illusion and the Laws of Nature
«As for pointing to our mental failures with scorn or dismay, we might as well profess disappointment with the mechanics of gravity or the laws of thermodynamics. In other words, the degree of disillusionment we feel in response to any particular human behaviour is the precise measure of our ignorance of its evolutionary and genetic origins.»
– Reg Morrison
November 17th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
The farmer’s plow opening the fertile soil to plant seed is a phallic symbol of mother-fuckery that was recognized even by the ancient Greeks in their mythology of the Rape of Demeter, [later, her daughter Persephone] the goddess of grain and agriculture.
“…farming of domesticated species created food surpluses that nurtured the development of civilization.”
~/wiki/Agriculture
“Agriculture, the indispensable basis of civilization…”
~John Zerzan
Agriculture: The Demon Engine of Civilization
rewild.info/anthropik/library/zerzan/demon-engine-of-civilization/
Thesis #9: Agriculture is difficult, dangerous and unhealthy.
~Jason Godesky
The Thirty Theses
theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jason-godesky-thirty-theses
“…we chose the latter [agriculture] and ended up with starvation, warfare, and tyranny.”
~Jared Diamond, PhD, (UCLA School of Medicine)
The Worst Mistake In The History Of The Human Race
discovermagazine.com/1987/may/02-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race
Thou art Hades himself, plowboy! I damn thee to Heck, to be purified of thy sins by Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light.
November 17th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Do you treat reproductive humans’—Breeders’!—”particular human behaviour” with “scorn or dismay” that precisely measures your “ignorance,” Robert Thankyoufornotbreeding Atack?
November 17th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Intelligence was overly successful in its primary job; maintaining a positive EROEI. I agree with Reg M. we couldn’t help ourselves. We got drunk on the black stuff. However, the Amish chose to not use it. Explain that.
November 17th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
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The Amish are not as pure as the myth would have us believe. They do use oil. From here:
http://peakoil.com/forums/the-amish-thread-merged-t934.html
The Amish do use oil. They may live a low-tech lifestyle in general, but they are part of the modern world, and they use its conveniences when it suits them.
For example, when they are sick, they go to modern doctors and state of the art hospitals, high-tech life support, etc. In emergencies, they go to their neighbors with phones and cars and borrow the use of them. They are part of our global economy, buying stuff they need and selling stuff they make so they can earn money to buy stuff.
You can’t live like the Amish “only with solar panels.” Who is going to make the solar panels? Amish sure can’t.
Don’t get me wrong – life can be good without modern technology. The happiest people in the world are Nigerians. But that’s not a “modern, energy-rich” life. And you can’t point to the Amish as an example of people who live without oil.
And this:
The Amish family we’re buying (hopefully) our place from hire heavy tractor work, use a gasoline powered air compressor to run the well pump, have propane refrigeration, buy goods – however “plain”- produced and transported with cheap energy and he made cash on the side repairing others farm equipment.
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November 17th, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Hi Guy, could you summarize clearly in a nutshell for arguments’ sake, how solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, ocean waves, and biomass are all derivatives of oil? I checked your here, here, here, etc. links and couldn’t get a clear understanding. I remember from your book that we probably wouldn’t have time or resources to convert everyone to solar, and many of those resources are oil dependent. But surely there are solutions related to the above list that aren’t directly connected to oil?
November 17th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
The Amish aren’t anti-agriculture (the demon engine of civilization); they still plow and “rape the earth.”
In fact, government’s love them and invite them to come “develop” land in “undeveloped” areas. Their kind of agriculture isn’t any more sustainable than the agriculture that’s been going on for 10,000 years of destroying China, the Fertile Crescent, Greece, Rome, and Europe, and now North America. The Amish are an integral part of that environmental destructive culture.
Nor are they anti-oil. They use oil lamps, gasoline powered balers, propane heat, grease on their buggy hubs, and even have oil wells on their farms.
But they have resisted the much of the industrial intensification of agricultural civilization this last 90 years or so, which is admirable.
November 17th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Ok, I know the Amish cheat, but if we didn’t have the gadgets for them to “borrow” and they only used lamp oil, would they have set the world on fire?
November 17th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
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I think it says something positive about the larger System that it didn’t persecute the Amish into extinction. It certainly did so to the Indians, for the most part, but the Amish were allowed to continue unscathed. The Quakers, when it was all said and done, pretty much went by the wayside from their Glory Days in the late 1600′s through the 1700′s, whereas the Amish withdrew, but still persevered and thrived even. Some claim it’s the highly fertile farmland they secured early on. Without that prime farmland, they would have fell upon severely hard times, and more than likely their culture would have been fragmented and/or disbanded. The Germans in Texas are an interesting historical story, as well.
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November 17th, 2012 at 4:06 pm
I thinkit is ridiculous to find fault with the Amish. As I understand it, there are numerous sub-divisions of Amish and Mennonites, which differ in their degree of felexibility. None of them may be ‘perfect’, but then what is perfection ?
In this context, perfection must mean zero ecological impact. It’s obvious that that is impossible. A human, just by occupying physical space, has an impact. Their presence will perturb the environment, frighten birds, compress soil, etc. The impact grows larger if they build a home, if they hunt and gather, if they practice gardening, horticulture, permaculture, agriculture. The ideal must be to minimimse ecological footprint, but zero, perfection, is unattainable.
None of it would matter if there were only a few thousand, even millions, of humans. The total biosphere wouldn’t be perceptibly effected.
Where it becomes significant, is if numbers increase, and if impact is maximised, as in building huge cities, damming rivers, polluting oceans and air, covering the land with concrete and tarmac, displacing all other life forms.
In other words, where it became significant was with the rise civilisation, and then by many orders of magnitude more, with the rise of industrial capitalism, amplified by oil and technology and science, until the natural world we inherited is no longer extant. We replaced the Holocene with the Anthropocene.
Sure, there are minor problems with the Amish, like the number of children they have means they must expand. There are problems with the Kogi, who are also very close to ecological perfection, and with the Bishnoi likewise. But they are all at the opposite end of the scale from Dow Chemicals, Monsanto, Exxon, Cargill, and the like. That’s where the real problem lies and where criticism should be directed, because that’s where the threat to all life is coming from, not some tiny insignificant minority of Amish, Kogi, Bishnoi, and permaculturalists.
Ultimately, the theoretical problem is how could humans integrate themselves into ecosystems in a benign fashion, in the same way that bears, wolves, lions, elephants, and the like are integrated into ecosystems.
It’s not, theoretically, an insoluble problem, even though it appears be insoluble in a practical and political sense. Estonian peasants and Amazonian indians lived for millennia without trashing their habitat, in fact, they enriched the ecology, to the benefit of many other species. We have the knowledge and understanding, we could mimic those systems, if that was out highest priority. But it’s not the highest priority, is it. Nowhere near. The vast mass of the 7 billion are not interested in subsistence. They want ‘progress’, power, wealth, expansion of control, etc, etc.
People are not being forced to buy Coke and Pepsi and Macdonald’s and cars and fly in aircraft for weekend vacations, are they. They like their guns and their motorbikes and their movies and their electrical gadgets and the bright lights of the cities.
Once, maybe thirty years ago, I thought I had cracked it, when Mollison published his Designer’s Manual. It wasn’t 100% perfect, but there seemed to be a map for a way forward that would allow humans to satisfy basic needs and coexist with the rest of life on this planet. But it wasn’t long before I understood that people simply don’t want to do it.
Yes, there’s a minority, the Amish, Kogi, Bishnoi, permaculture, the organic movement, Guy’s agrarian anarchy, Rob Hopkin’s Transition towns, John Robb’s Resilience, Greer’s Green Wizards, and a whole lot more, all striving to find ethical ways to live. But compared with the Pentagon, BP and Royal Dutch Shell and Exxon and Aramco, all the coal and gas companies, all the corporations, the banks, the pension funds, the hedge funds, the vast majority of people alive, the ‘green’ fringe is not going to change the course of history, is it.
I expect that most here would prefer for the industrial mega-machine to collapse. I would, because that’s the only way to save something of the biosphere. But, if/when that happens, billions will die. That’s too appalling to contemplate. The only thing worse, is for things to continue, BAU, then everyone gets to die, along with most other living things.
That’s why we are doomed, one way, or another.
If anybody sees faults in this logic, let’s hear them.
John Robb has often said, don’t waste energy trying to change the old, focus on building the new, that will replace it. But some of us have already grasped the flaws in that. How can you build a self-sufficient small agrarian community, when the whole climate is changing all around you, faster than you can keep up ? That model made sense a few decades ago, but global ecological meltdown may mean large areas of the planet become uninhabitable…. then what ?
November 17th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
It is ridiculous ulvfugl tries to obfuscate the significant impact of agriculture with the red herring of “zero ecological impact…perfection.”
The difference between agriculturalists and foragers is distilled into one answer a Kalahari bushman gave an anthropologist inquiring why they didn’t practice agriculture:
“Why should we plant, when there are so many mongomongo nuts in the world?”
~Marshall Sahlins
The Original Affluent Society (Chap. 1 of Stone Age Economics)
primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm
Like Jared Diamond states, Agriculture is the “Biggest Mistake in the History of the Human Race.” The Mennonite/Amish are as deep into that mistake as anybody else.
November 17th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
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I don’t think it’s ridiculous to find fault with the Amish. All Industrial Civilization did was speed the process up by a thousand or two thousand years, but with the advent of agriculture, it was always just a matter of time until humans completely fouled their nest. The Amish aren’t immune from that charge, so there is fault to be found there, not to mention the other numerous faults that can be found within their culture. I’m sure someone, somewhere, has modeled when exactly we might have outstripped our resources and overextended our populations without burning oil and coal. If anyone has a link, I’d like to review it.
Either way, I like the Amish eggs I buy at the local farmer’s market here…brought to my door by the Industrial Economy, and no doubt, the Amish profited handsomely from it, but hey, you can’t fault them for that….they’re Capitalists just like all us Heathens.
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November 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
I guessed that Ivy Mike the troll would come up with typical nonsense. Despite my disdain for his lack of intellectual integrity, and my stated position to ignore his comments, seeing as this is a new thread, and I invited criticism, I will reply, with one very simple question.
How are you going to feed 7 billion people, soon to be 9 billion, by hunting and gathering, whether for mongomongo nuts or anything else ?
All hunter gatherer soceities were very low population density.
For example, the last time such a thing existed in Wales, during the mesolithic, before the neolithic farmers arrived, it’s been calculated that the population of the entire British Isles was only in the region of 2000 people. That was the carrying capacity.
Wales now has 3 million. Supported by oil-based agriculture, industry, cities and imports.
To return to hunter gathering, all of those three million, minus a thousand or so, will have to die, and even then, how will those thousand survive by hunting and gathering when there is no longer any of the wildlife and forest and sea life that supported the mesolithic people ?
So, Ivy Mike’s ‘solution’ means telling millions and millions people that they must cease to exist, and this from an individual who regularly berates others on this blog for being ‘unethical’.
November 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
.
Actually, now that I think further about it, I’ll modify my comment above to say….
I think it says something negative about the Amish that the larger System didn’t persecute them, and their culture, into extinction like it did the Indians.
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November 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
I guessed that ulvfugl the troll would call scholarly anthropological references “nonsense.”
As to your question, I’m not in charge of feeding 7 billion people; but that’s a nice try with another red herring to dodge and weave around the scholarly anthropological references giving evidence that agriculture has been the primary factor in fueling civilization.
What is my solution? Your lies? Sorry, ulvfugl, your lies don’t equate to any “solution” of mine.
November 17th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Morocco Bama, the other troll, who has such shallow understanding of everything that he doesn’t even understand the difference between trade and capitalism.
It was by no means inevitable that agriculture would ‘foul the nest’. I just mentioned two examples where it did not, the Estonian peasants and Amazonian Indians, both of which developed agricultural systems which worked in harmony with the natural world, ENHANCING and INCREASING biodiversity. Such systems could continue indefinitely without producing any of the problems which are causing our imminent extinction.
November 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
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The way I understand it, billions of people are going to cease to exist regardless of what any of us feel about it or try to do about it. I thought that was one of the certain messages put forth here. If that’s the case, that it’s already cooked in, then a return to Hunter-Gatherer is possible if you believe that not all human life will go extinct.
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November 17th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
ulvfugl fallacies are addressed here:
Objection #2. We have a stable, abundant supply of food. Primitivists want us to spend our lives desperate as to where our next meal is coming from.
Why, then, is it only agriculturalists who starve? In fact, civilization’s food supply has always been shaky and meager…
Jason Godesky
5 Common Objections to Primitivism and Why They’re Wrong
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jason-godesky-5-common-objections-to-primitivism-and-why-they-re-wrong
November 17th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Ivy Mike, you have not provided any ‘scholarly anthropological references’ that have any bearing whatosever upon the contemporary situation.
So what that the San don’t practice agriculture because they can live on wild nuts ? What has that got to do with 2012 and a world of 7 billion people ?
Yes, I know ‘you are not in charge’, and thanks be to God for that, because your lack of insight and frivolous remarks don’t qualify you for any position of responsibility.
You don’t have any answer to offer at all, do you. So, what happens to the 7 billion ? You, along with them, will die.
Or are you seriously trying to suggest that the 300 million in USA can abandon agriculture and wonder off into the woods and live like the San ?
November 17th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
ulvfugl is conflating horticulture (the more accurate anthropological term for what the Amazonian Indians did) with agriculture—in a dishonest attempt to justify agriculture—just like any other KOCHsucking troll would do.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Both Marshall Sahlins and Jared Diamond are scholarly references.
And thanks again for proving who started the insults around here. You.
“Or are you seriously trying to suggest that the 300 million in USA can abandon agriculture and wonder off into the woods and live like the San?”
No. Do you think that is what both Marshall Sahlins and Jared Diamond are suggesting? If you do, well, enjoy your delusions.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:08 pm
ulvfugl, I note your word is worth zilch. When is your next Big Pronouncement about ignoring me?
You can’t ignore me. I’m living in your head rent-free. Apparently forever.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
Bama ….then a return to Hunter-Gatherer is possible if you believe that not all human life will go extinct.
So, what are they going to hunt and gather ?
Have you ever caught and killed any wild creature, ever, in your life ?
Do you think you can do that every single day, or find enough nuts and berries, when the whole country is denuded by, first, by being ravaged by all the people who tried to survive by hunting but failed and perished, and then by climate change so all the ecosystems have collapsed, so there are no deer, no ducks, no squirrels….
Hunting and gathering is/was a very highly skilled life style that people learned from babyhood over many generations.
Can you make a bow, an arrow, hit a running rabbit ? do you know which berries are good and which kill you ? What about when the weather is bad, in winter, and there’s nothing but rain and snow for weeks ?
November 17th, 2012 at 5:14 pm
ulvfugl, are you seriously trying to suggest that BC Nurse Prof wants the 300 million in USA can abandon agriculture and wonder off into the woods and live like the San?…”
…Just because she asked this?
“So I ask again, just what was it exactly that was wrong with hunting and gathering?”
~BC Nurse Prof
http://guymcpherson.com/2012/11/justice-american-style/#comment-53848
Go ahead, ask her your rhetorical question, if you truly think its an honest attempt at learning. But you know it’s not, so you won’t.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
ulvfugl has taken on the mantle of the KOCHsuckers; i.e., mocking any scholarly critique of agricultural civilization. Who’s paying you? Cato Institute? American Enterprise Institute?
Nah, you’re not that good. It’s just typical troll behavior to switch positions just for the thrill of scoring points.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Yes, I agree that this is a great essay. I much prefer it, Guy, when you concentrate on the collapse of industrial civilisation due to resource depletion (a certainty if nothing else brings IC down first) and less on climate change (already occuring but with many unknowns).
As well as agreeing with MB about the lack of surprise and amazement at what people do and believe, I also take issue with calling the majority of people insane. At an individual level most of the decisions we make are perfectly rational, even though the cumulative effect of these decisions is the destruction of our home.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
For someone who so frequently boasts of their intelligence and learning, Ivy Mike, you are as good and example of Dunning-Kruger as I have come across.
ulvfugl is conflating horticulture (the more accurate anthropological term for what the Amazonian Indians did) with agriculture—in a dishonest attempt to justify agriculture—just like any other KOCHsucking troll would do.
I am not ‘conflating’ anything. It’s just as possible to practice unsustainable horticulture as it is to practice unsustainable agriculture, if they are based on artificial chemical inputs from fossil fuels, as most are.
But the Amazonian indians have proven that they could garden the forest t o supply all of their needs, without wrecking the ecology, and they proved, with terra preta, that they can actually benefit all living things whilst sustaining themselves.
The Estonian peasants practiced dairy farming based upon hay meadows, for three thousand years, whilst enriching the biodiversity to the highest recorded anywhere on the planet.
This has absolutely nothing to do with ‘justifying agriculture’. It has to do with analysing what options there are, or could be, regarding the greatest crisis that the human species has ever faced.
All you have offered so far is garbage, like ‘hey let’s have a nuclear war’ which is one reason why I don’t view you as a serious responsible individual.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
ulvfugl, I note your word is worth zilch. When is your next Big Pronouncement about ignoring me?
You can’t ignore me. I’m living in your head rent-free. Apparently forever.
I’m attempting to conduct a serious adult conversation here with grown ups, despite your trolling and childish behaviour.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:28 pm
I’m glad you’re saying it again, Guy.
I hate this culture, too.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
ulvfugl, “adult conversation” doesn’t include your carpet-bombing of insults. At least where I come from. But I’ll address one of your points anyway:
You are indeed conflating horticulture with agriculture.
I’ve posted this before, I’ll post it again:
1. Relationship with Succession
Gardening: Promoter
Agriculture: Catastrophe
2. Emulation of catastrophe (e.g., tilling, flooding, fire)
Gardening: Rarely
Agriculture: Always
3. Monocropping
Gardening: Rarely
Agriculture: Always
4. Crops
Gardening: Wide variety of various successional species
Agriculture: Small variety of early successional species
5. Role of native plants
Gardening: Essential to garden health
Agriculture: DEATH TO WEEDS!
6. Place in society
Gardening: Mixed with various forms of foraging
Agriculture: Sole (or nearly sole) food source
7. Wilderness
Gardening: Precious resource; valued hunting grounds
Agriculture: Wasted cropland; home to vermin
Source:
Jason Godesky, June 2007, Agriculture or Permaculture: Why Words Matter, http://www.rewild.info/anthropik/2007/06/agriculture-or-permaculture-why-words-matter/
November 17th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Yorchichan, At an individual level most of the decisions we make are perfectly rational, even though the cumulative effect of these decisions is the destruction of our home.
‘Sane’ and ‘rational’ are not the same thing. If your kids in your car are driving you crazy screaming and shouting, the ‘logical’, the ‘rational’, thing to do would be stop the car, kick them out, leave them at the side of the road. Makes perfect practical sense, faultless solution to a problem. But sane ?
November 17th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
‘hey let’s have a nuclear war’
Another lie. Show me where I said that.
What I’ve said is:
1. Nuclear war is “virtually inevitable.” Just like Dr. Martin Hellman of Stanford University says.
2. Nuclear war will end civilization and civilization’s global warming.
If you can’t figure out those two points without making up laughable lies, well, you might be a ulvfugl.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
Ivy Mike But I’ll address one of your points anyway:
I’m very well aware of those distinctions. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with my points.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:45 pm
You called horticultural practices, specifically Amazonian Indian’s “swidden” (slash-and-burn) horticulture “agriculture,” so it does address your points, if you had ever bothered to read the reference.
Anthropologically, we know that horticulture—gardening—preceded agriculture. Even in technical anthropological definitions, this cultural confusion sometimes persists; horticulture will sometimes be called “hoe agriculture” or “swidden agriculture”….
~Jason Godesky, June 2007, Agriculture or Permaculture: Why Words Matter, http://www.rewild.info/anthropik/2007/06/agriculture-or-permaculture-why-words-matter/
Also addressed here:
“By comparison, cultivation converts a specific area of biomass into human food, raising the edible ratio of that area to 100%. In swidden (a.k.a., “slash-and-burn”) horticulture, for example, an area of rain forest is cut down and burned, and a garden is planted in the ashes. This is the only way to practice cultivation in the rain forest, as the ground is about as fertile as cement — all of the nutrients are locked in the trees. This very clearly illustrates the conversion from biomass into human food, as the biodiversity of some area of rain forest becomes fertilizer to grow a horticultural garden. This is the essence of all cultivation. For agriculturalists, who depend entirely on their crops for food, the wilderness is no longer a resource, but a nuisance. Not only is it land “going to waste” (and very often put into just such explicit terms), it also harbors all manner of pests and vermin who threaten the agricultural way of life.
~Jason Godesky
Thesis #8: Human societies are defined by their food.
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jason-godesky-thirty-theses#toc10
November 17th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
There are 7 billion people alive. More than half live in cities. The great majority of those rely for their daily food upon manufactured commercial products supplied by corporations which get them from industrial agribusiness, which can only produce those commodities because of oil.
In other words, almost half the 7 billion are being fed on fossil fuels, supplied by industry and infrastructure that is sustained by fossil fuels.
Okay, so we have to stop using fossil fuels NOW, or we get an uninhabitable planet, and go extinct.
So, what happens to those 3 or 4 billion people ? What do they eat ? Ivy Mike says they must all return to hunting and gathering, because agriculture is evil.
Where do they go to hunt and gather ? What do they hunt and gather ?
Do they just wonder out into the suburbs with a shotgun ? A basket to collect…. what ?
Without the highly complex system which exists, entirely based on fossil fuels, they starve and they die.
Not to mention all the other vital needs, warmth, medicine, etc, that are required for survival.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
“Ivy Mike says they must all return to hunting and gathering…”
Where do I say that? Please show us!!!
Oh, you can’t, because you lie.
What I have done is present several scholarly critiques of agriculture.
So why don’t you write to the University of Chicago and have Marshall Sahlins brought up on your charges? Oh, right, they’re false.
November 17th, 2012 at 5:52 pm
You called horticultural practices, specifically Amazonian Indian’s “swidden” (slash-and-burn) horticulture “agriculture,” so it does address your points, if you had ever bothered to read the reference.
“Anthropologically, we know that horticulture—gardening—preceded agriculture. Even in technical anthropological definitions, this cultural confusion sometimes persists; horticulture will sometimes be called “hoe agriculture” or “swidden agriculture”….
~Jason Godesky, June 2007, Agriculture or Permaculture: Why Words Matter
rewild.info/anthropik/2007/06/agriculture-or-permaculture-why-words-matter/
Also addressed here:
“By comparison, cultivation converts a specific area of biomass into human food, raising the edible ratio of that area to 100%. In swidden (a.k.a., “slash-and-burn”) horticulture, for example, an area of rain forest is cut down and burned, and a garden is planted in the ashes. This is the only way to practice cultivation in the rain forest, as the ground is about as fertile as cement — all of the nutrients are locked in the trees. This very clearly illustrates the conversion from biomass into human food, as the biodiversity of some area of rain forest becomes fertilizer to grow a horticultural garden. This is the essence of all cultivation. For agriculturalists, who depend entirely on their crops for food, the wilderness is no longer a resource, but a nuisance. Not only is it land “going to waste” (and very often put into just such explicit terms), it also harbors all manner of pests and vermin who threaten the agricultural way of life.
~Jason Godesky
Thesis #8: Human societies are defined by their food.
theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jason-godesky-thirty-theses
November 17th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
I’m not the least bit interested in your trolling, Ivy Mike. I’m familiar with all those references. I’ve read all the stuff by Sahlins and on the Anthropik site. None of it has ANYTHING to do with what I am talking about, it’s just your usual tactic to avoid constructive dialogue. You have no knowledge or insights of your own, so you throw out arbitrary quotes, with no context, to try and bluff that you have something to say.
If I wanted to argue with Sahlins or Godesky I’d email them, and for sure they’d talk more sense than you do.
I have said nothing about slash and burn agriculture. I said that some Amazonian indians gardened the forest, to provide for everything that they needed and grew crops using terra preta. That has no connection whatsoever to slash and burn. Godesky is talking about something completely different, modern day people who don’t know how to do what the earlier indians had done for a couple of thousand years, and you are too ignorant to comprehend the difference. Dunning-Kruger, again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
November 17th, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Kayapo forest gardening
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory34.html
November 17th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Okay. So Ivy Mike thinks agriculture is ‘bad’.
So, this is the question he is required to answer. What happens to the 3 or 4 billion people who at present depend for their daily food upon the products of industrial agriculture ?
Come on, Ivy Mike. What do you say to all those people, and to the readers here ?
November 17th, 2012 at 6:13 pm
Terra Preta isn’t “agriculture” as defined by Godesky above, which you say you know. It’s more accurately described as “horticulture.”
“But at least 10%—possibly much more—of the Amazon Basin (an area the size of France) is covered with a rich black earth called terra preta. Terra preta soils hold their nutrients even in tropical downpours, and are rich with soil life.”
Seeing the Garden in the Jungle
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.patternliteracy.com/127-seeing-the-garden-in-the-jungle
Dunning-Kruger, indeed, ulvfugl.
It is you who has the problem with Sahlin’s, Godesky, and Diamond, and other anthropological scholars when you bloviate about any critique of agriculture being a death sentence for 7 billion.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:15 pm
ulvfugl has switched to the KOCHsucker bandwagon. He says agriculture and civilization are good.
Come on, ulvfugl. What do you say to all those people, and to the readers here?
November 17th, 2012 at 6:17 pm
Forest gardening is horticultural, not agricultural, even though “agriculture” is now often attached to horticultural/gardening/permacultural practices. Like Godesky says, it’s a “cultural confusion.” You’re a prime example.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Terra Preta isn’t “agriculture” as defined by Godesky above, which you say you know. It’s more accurately described as “horticulture.”
It was you who dragged Godesky into this thread, and it was me who said that what he was saying has NOTHING to do with what I am saying.
As usual, a smoke screen to hide your ignorance, that’s all.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
You claimed “I’m very well aware of those distinctions” between agriculture and gardening/horticulture/permaculture.
Apparently, you’re not.
You called Terra Preta “agricululture.” Like I said, it’s better described as “gardening/horticulture/permaculture.”
Or are you going to say Toby Hemenway is wrong? NOTE: he doesn’t say “agriculture in the jungle.”
Seeing the Garden in the Jungle
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.patternliteracy.com/127-seeing-the-garden-in-the-jungle
November 17th, 2012 at 6:26 pm
And you boast about your ‘intelligence’ and your ‘intellectual integrity’ ? Jeez.
Where did I say …agriculture and civilization are good. anywhere on this blog since I’ve been here, or anywhere else, EVER ?
It obviously is not good, it’s permitted over-shoot of human population. But that’s what we have got. To pretend otherwise is to be dishonest.
So, to take it away, means a few billion people who depend upon it, must die.
That’s very far from saying ‘it is good’..
November 17th, 2012 at 6:30 pm
Why don’t you answer the question like a responsible adult ?
You have been declaring that you are against agriculture repeatedly, on many threads, and extolling the virtues of hunting and gathering.
So, answer the question I put to you, stop all the prevarication and evasion. It’s a simple and straightforward question :
This is the question Ivy Mike is required to answer. What happens to the 3 or 4 billion people who at present depend for their daily food upon the products of industrial agriculture ?
Come on, Ivy Mike. What do you say to all those people, and to the readers here ?
What do you say ?
November 17th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
ulvfugl 6:09 pm: So Ivy Mike thinks agriculture is ‘bad’.
ulvfugl 6:26 pm: It obviously is not good…
17 minutes to switch to my position. Cool move, bro.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:35 pm
Answer the question please.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Agriculture: The Biggest Mistake in the History of the Human Race.
by Jared Diamond
discovermagazine.com/1987/may/02-the-worst-mistake-in-the-history-of-the-human-race
Just read it for once, ulvfugl. Stop all the prevarication and evasion.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:37 pm
Why are you so pro-agricultural civilization, ulvfugl?
Answer the question please.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:38 pm
I have read everything by Jared Diamond. I’m not talking to Diamond, I’m talking to Ivy Mike.
Now, please answer the question.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:40 pm
If you’ve read Diamond, then you should know why agriculture was the biggest mistake in the history of the human race.
Do you think mistakes are “bad?” Or “good?”
Answer the question please.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
Anybody who has read anything I have ever written, here and elswhere, knows full well that I am not pro agriculture or pro civilisation.
Now, please answer the question.
Would you like me to repeat it for you again ?
Perhaps you have some difficutly with comprehension ?
November 17th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
ulvfugl 6:09 pm: So Ivy Mike thinks agriculture is ‘bad’.
ulvfugl 6:41 pm I am not pro agriculture.
Now we agree again? Or are you switching positions every millisecond now?
November 17th, 2012 at 6:49 pm
So I take it you refuse or are unable to reply and answer my question. I think readers would be justified in drawing the obvious conclusion.
You are a troll and you cop out when asked a very fair and honest question.
I’m more than happy to reply to yours.
Just because I have read Diamond does not mean that I agree with him or accept his thesis. He’s recently been shredded by more than one critic. But what Diamond has to say has nothing to do with my points in this thread, which you refuse to respond to.
We do not face a situation which can be classified as ‘good’ or ‘bad’. The deaths of billions of humans cannot be considered ‘good’ by any sane person.
The situation we are faced with is, do billions of people die, because of the collapse of industrial civilisation, or, does everyone die because of the collapse of the biosphere.
Only shallow fools incapable of anything other than binary thinking would see either as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ options.
Now, perhaps you will have the courtesy to give a direct answer to my direct question.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:51 pm
ulvfugl 6:41 pm: I am not pro agriculture
What happens to the billions of people who at present depend for their daily food upon the products of industrial agriculture ?
Come on, ulvfugl. What do you say to all those people, and to the readers here ? What do you say ?
Now, perhaps you will have the courtesy to give a direct answer to my direct question.
November 17th, 2012 at 6:54 pm
troll ulvfugl cops out of calling Terra Preta “agricululture” without admitting his mistake.
Only shallow fools incapable of anything other than Matrix thinking would see Terra Preta as “agricultural.”
Seeing the Garden in the Jungle
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.patternliteracy.com/127-seeing-the-garden-in-the-jungle
November 17th, 2012 at 7:04 pm
Guy,
Back to basics. Great essay.
Unfortunately I wasn’t in the area, so I missed the session.
For all:
We had an “Ex Oil Man’ give a talk in our locality last week or so. I was tempted to go, but my ‘intuition’ led me to do something else, equally benificial. I picked up 10 kg of kangaroo poo instead.
He was to talk about peak oil, depletion of resources, and the need to bring in renewables. Revolutionary stuff eh?
Now I asked myself why an ex oil man would give a talk in a backwoods place like the Blue Mountains?
Some may feel this a bit of a stretch, but I felt it might be a trap, to identify those already politicised or aware, and likely to become those who mediate the message, and organise awarness of the ‘real’ situation, when TSHTF. No idea if it was so.
Keep your eyes peeled. I Trust my gut, on these matters now.
I notice the usual name calling persisting.
I’ve got better things to do now.
Keep up the great work Guy.
Cheers.
!!!
November 17th, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Guy,
Last thread I think you were discussing options about how to proceed with the site, and in doing so you stated in passing, that the site had largly served its purpose now.
What did you mean by that?
Can you flesh it ot for us a bit?
Cheers.
!!!
November 17th, 2012 at 7:12 pm
I think that my point is made. You, Ivy Mike, are a troll, you entertain yourself by irritating people, telling them they are wrong, winding them up, disrupting the blog, and so forth, but when it comes down to the actual issues that this blog is about, you have absolutely nothing to offer.
You don’t answer my question, because you CANNOT. You are not a serious person who discusses in good faith, you are only interested in playing games for your own perverse reasons.
All your quotes, whether from Diamond, Godesky, Kaczysnski, Zerzan, Sahlins, etc, whoever, have absolutely no relevance to to the very real and horrifying predicament which faces us all. Your flippancy and casual evasion shows just how much you respect the human race and this Earth. None of it matters to you, only Ivy Mike’s ego.
It doesn’t matter at all how hunter gatherers lived, or whether agriculture was a mistake, or any of the other red herrings you have introduced on this thread.
The year is 2012. We have 7 billion humans. A billion or more are already living in semi-starvation. Without fossil fuel based agriculture ( and all the rest ) maybe half that number gets to die of starvation.
All you, Ivy Mike, have offered is ‘go eat mongomongo nuts and die in a nuclear war’.
Instead of thinking about the very real and tragic problem, all you can do is throw quotes at me, which have absolutely no bearing upon the horror that we face.
I think that is a measure of your true character. You’re only here to troll, not for serious adult conversation.
November 17th, 2012 at 7:13 pm
ulvfugl 6:26 pm: It obviously is not good…
ulvfugl 6:49 pm: Only shallow fools incapable of anything other than binary thinking would see either as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ options.
23 minutes to become a shallow fool. Cool story, bro.
November 17th, 2012 at 7:15 pm
Susan Says:
November 17th, 2012 at 2:32 pm
“Hi Guy, could you summarize clearly in a nutshell for arguments’ sake, how solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, ocean waves, and biomass are all derivatives of oil? I checked your here, here, here, etc. links and couldn’t get a clear understanding. I remember from your book that we probably wouldn’t have time or resources to convert everyone to solar, and many of those resources are oil dependent. But surely there are solutions related to the above list that aren’t directly connected to oil?”
Hi Susan,
Here is my take on it as a someone who grew up on a subsistence organic farm, science teacher, long term researcher on the issues, a person who has built and lived in an off-grid PV powered home, a yurt, and is currently builing a home that is run on the local energies of temperature, gravity, water and wood.
In a nutshell renewables get a huge subsidy from oil in their production, construction and mainenance. If renewables had to manufacture, distribute and maintain themselves without oil they would run an energy deficit ie: could not/can not happen. The “better” ones might do the above with the energy they generated but would not have any, or at best only a surplus energy to run society. Beyond looking at it from a straight energy perspective consider that renewables generate electricity. Society needs far more than just electricity to operate.
This does not account for environmental costs, resource exhaustion such as metals, rare metals, rare earths and most importantly for me the continued high level of violence modern civilization perpetrates on our behalf to displace and destroy indigenous people and all the other beings on and in the ecosytem in which the extraction, transportation, refining and construction of industrial energy Iand everything else, like modern agriculture) occurs.
In short, there is no such thing as sustainable level or form of industrial civilization. It is a lethal cultural myth. One of many that make our culture a culture of death.
Here is a link to Dr. Tom Murphy’s “Do The Math” article on the Energy Bulletin wherein he deconstructs the myth:
http://www.energybulletin.net/authors/Tom+Murphy
Cheers,
Anthony
November 17th, 2012 at 7:19 pm
A billion or more are already living in semi-starvation.
Correct.
Starvation/famine is typical of agricultural societies. If you like starvation, you’ll just love agriculture, like you, ulvfugl.
“…we chose the latter [agriculture] and ended up with STARVATION, warfare, and tyranny.”
~Jared Diamond, PhD, (UCLA School of Medicine,) The Worst Mistake In The History Of The Human Race
November 17th, 2012 at 7:38 pm
What I say to the billions, and to the readers here, is that we face the biggest crisis that the human species has ever faced.
Previous dramatic changes in Earth’s climate that have produced mass extinctions happened very slowly over relatively long periods. This present manmade change is happening over a few decades.
I believe this will result in extinction of our species and most of the rest, certainly all the larger organisms. It’s probably unavoidable, because we have already set the changes in motion. The climate chaos we have now, loss of Arctic ice, etc, are the results of emissions from decades ago. There’s a time lag. Emissions have continued to increase, so the future will reflect those increases, with even more shocking results, and once we are past two degrees C. and the methane begins to enter the atmosphere, then there’s nothing that can be done. The oceans are already acidifying faster than the rise in CO2, glaciers melting, etc. It all looks very similar to previous mass extinction events in Earth’s long history.
So, what can be done ?
We’d have to end the use of fossil fuels. Now. I guess that’d be the advice from an impartial and objective Martian. That way, we limit the damage and buy some time.
But, ending fossil fuel use collapses industrial soceity, upon which so many people depend for their food, their income, everything that they require to survive. The hypothetical Martian might say, so what, they’ll die anyway, sooner or later. For a human with a sense of compassion and morality, the choice is not so simple.
Without the cooperation and consent of the world’s population, we’re unlikely to find any mandate for any kind of action. How will people respond when told, ‘We’d like you to die, so that the Earth remains viable for a very much reduced human population’ ?
If, for sake of argument, lots of hands went up volunteering to be euthanised, and we got the numbers down to say, 1 billion, and we followed the examples I gave above, re the Kayapo, the Kogi, the Estonian peasants, etc, then we might be able to have a viable planet.
But that’s mere fantasy.
November 17th, 2012 at 7:39 pm
ulvfugl’s troll behavior—the “Answer the Question, Jerk!” gambit—is widely recognized online:
http://www.troll.me/images/y-u-no/why-you-no-answer-the-question.jpg
November 17th, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Ivy Mike, you are obviously incapable of coherent thought.
Starvation/famine is typical of agricultural societies. If you like starvation, you’ll just love agriculture, like you, ulvfugl.
Take away agriculture ? What do you get ? Starvation of billions.
Or, how else do you feed them ?
No point is there, in asking YOU for an answer to that.
“…we chose the latter [agriculture] and ended up with STARVATION, warfare, and tyranny.”
So what ? That was TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO. A million on the entire planet.
This is NOW. Seven BILLION, and two more, equivalent to 2 X China, arriving shortly.
Who cares what Diamond says. It’s all history. You might as well be telling me why the William the Bastard invaded England. It has no bearing whatsoever upon the present day predicament.
7 – 9 billion people CANNOT FEED THEMSELVES BY HUNTING AND GATHERING.
With a collapse of the global ecology, dead oceans, dried up rivers, polluted land and water, much of the wildlife rare or extinct, even a few million will be hard pressed to live from scavenging whatever they can find, especially since all the skills have been lost.
So, I repeat, the question you refuse to answer. What happens to those billions ?
November 17th, 2012 at 7:56 pm
ulvfugl 7:12 pm A billion or more are already living in semi-starvation.
ulvfugl 7:50 pm: STARVATION…So what ? That was TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
38 minutes to switch positions. Cool story, bro.
Never read any history of Europe, have you? Famine and starvation are as frequent as war.
November 17th, 2012 at 7:57 pm
The reason you don’t answer, Ivy Mike, is not because I am a troll, it is because you cannot answer. It was a fair question, courteously put. All you have done is prevaricate.
So much for your integrity. I’m sure the readers can judge for themselves. I don’t need to add anything further.
November 17th, 2012 at 7:59 pm
From the start of this thread until now I have not changed any position on any aspect of my argument.
I’m familiar with your dishonest sleight of hand tactics, Ivy Mike. I despise them. You are incapable of discussing in good faith. Shame on you.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:03 pm
Ulvfugl & Ivy Mike,
In the entire range of political opinion, you seem to be closer to each other’s views than each of your views is to 99% of the world. It is a difference over what percentage to grow and what percentage to hunt/forage. You are both a lot closer to dealing with the problem than just about everyone else.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:07 pm
ulvfugl 4:47 pm: my disdain for his lack of intellectual integrity
ulvfugl 5:02 pm: your lack of insight and frivolous remarks
ulvfugl 5:24 pm: Ivy Mike, you are as good and example of Dunning-Kruger as I have come across.
ulvfugl 6:05 pm: You have no knowledge or insights of your own,
ulvfugl 6:21 pm: your ignorance
ulvfugl 6:41 pm: Perhaps you have some difficutly with comprehension ?
ulvfugl 7:57 pm: courteously put.
An evening of Welsh courtesy. Cool story, bro.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Never read any history of Europe, have you? Famine and starvation are as frequent as war.
I’m willing to bet an arm and a leg that I know a hell of a lot more about European history that you do, Ivy Mike, but this is just another of your sneaky irresponsible diversions.
What do you expect me to do ? Time travel and go back and change it ? Disinvent agriculture and the domestication of plants and animals ?
The problem we have is HERE TODAY. It’s the future of everyone’s children.
If you actually cared, if you had any real compassion and intellectual honesty, that’s what you’d be addressing.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:13 pm
Guy McPherson Nov 10 9:40 pm: If somebody wants to have a litter of children, ignorantly or fully aware of our dire straits, I have little interest
ulvfugl Nov 17 8:09 pm: It’s the future of everyone’s children.
Shouldn’t you check with Guy on that?
November 17th, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Thank you for that intervention, Ken Barrows.
In the entire range of political opinion, you seem to be closer to each other’s views than each of your views is to 99% of the world. It is a difference over what percentage to grow and what percentage to hunt/forage. You are both a lot closer to dealing with the problem than just about everyone else.
Relative to the 99% you may well be correct.
I don’t think that this is about percentage to grow v. percentage to hunt and forage.
For people who love in rural areas, where there is open country, mountains, lakes, forests, which is possibly about half of the 7 billion, probably less, where they can grow crops for themselves and spend periods fishing, gathering wild berries, etc. then the problem is different. They’ll often be resourceful folk who’ve grown up in that lifestyle and understand how to survive, even through harsh periods of adversity.
I’m not so much concerned with that portion. The other portion, the half who live in cities and shanty towns, who are dependent upon shops and transport systems to bring them their food, which is mostly produced by intensive commercial agriculture, using fossil fuels at every stage, those are the ones who get to die in the absence of agriculture.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:33 pm
In any major European city, there’s plenty of food available in shops, if you have the cash to pay. Same in UK. But almost every item in every super market is only there because of fossil fuels, from the packaging, to the transport, to the tractors and herbicides and the fertilizers. You might as well say that the people are eating oil, because that’s what it amounts to.
So, take away the oil, the gas, the coal, – because that is what we HAVE to do, to keep a habitable planet – then what ?
What do those people EAT ? It’s no good telling them to grow their own veg, when most of them live in places where there are no gardens, and when most have no clue how to do it, and use all their time and energy working for money.
It’s no good telling them to hunt and gather. They’d have to walk for two hours to get out of the city, and then what ? What will they see to hunt ? A cat ?
If they walk another 20 miles out into the surrounding agricultural land, there’s nothing there in the fields to hunt ot to gather. It’s all sterile cultivated agribusiness, commercial crops, maybe herds of cows, scarcely a wild animal or bird or plant to be found…
Even if you know what you are doing,like some country folk who know how to catch rabbits and which mushrooms to eat, in general, the population of stuff to hunt and gather is so sparse that it’s make for a very difficult life indeed.
Present day is NOTHING LIKE the conditions when people lived as hunter gatherers, where the whole land was teeming with wildlife, and from accumulated generations of knowledge people knew where to be at the right time, fro example when the salmon or eels were coming up river, when the ducks were sitting on eggs, all that stuff is lost.
You don’t just go out and learn it in weeks or months. You die first, in the bad weather, from exhaustion and starvation.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:43 pm
telling them to hunt and gather
I’m not telling anybody to do anything. You’re the Leftist control-freak who has spent an evening trying to order me around, (how’s that working for ya?) and you apparently project your authoritarian belligerence onto others.
Jason Godesky addresses your red herring as follows:
Most will choose to die; we cannot change that. It would be just as wrong to force them to choose life as it was for Kaczinski to force others to die. What we can do is try as hard as we can to make sure everyone understands that it truly is a choice they face. When hearing this defense, many progressivists will claim that our willingness to “allow” such a thing to happen is characterized as monstrous. First, the hubris dripping from such a statement is absurd; we do not “allow” such things to happen any more than we “allow” the sun to shine or the rain to fall.
~Jason Godesky
5 Common Objections to Primitivism and Why They’re Wrong
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jason-godesky-5-common-objections-to-primitivism-and-why-they-re-wrong
November 17th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Like I said earlier in the thread, the last time that people lived by hunting and gathering, before the first farmers arrived, the population of the entire British Isles was in the thousands. The whole countryside was alive with wildlife, aurochs, bears, deer, beavers, wild boar, birds everywhere, rivers and lakes full of fish, nuts, berries, sea food, it was just one big larder.
Now there’s 60 million, and only about 10% live in the countryside, all the rest in towns and cities.
How many of those, even if taken back to mesolithic times, could live for a month on what they could catch or find ?
In the present day British countryside, which is almost all exploited for agriculture, there just isn’t a lot there to catch or find that you can eat, unless you count stealing sheep or pigs or chickens… and how long would they last, with millions of desperate hungry people and feral dogs scavenging the land ?
Give it a year or three, and we’d be back down to the mesolithic population levels, in the thousands, I’d expect.
But that would be GOOD, if you are not soft hearted and squeamish about horror, cruel death and suffering… because then the land could return to wilderness….
Perhaps…
November 17th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
ulvfugl 6:49 pm: Only shallow fools incapable of anything other than binary thinking would see either as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ options.
ulvfugl 8:48 pm But that would be GOOD
I heard the word from a good source that you’re a shallow fool incapable of anything other than binary thinking.
Whadayathinkathat?
November 17th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
As always, Ivy Mike, nothing of your own to offer, only second hand stuff from other people, quoted out of context, that I’ve already read long ago. You are incapable of conducting an intelligent adult conversation. Very boring.
So, if you agree with Godesky, YOU go and tell them, they all have to choose to die, because you disapprove of the agriculture that’s keeping them alive. Let us know how you get on.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
I think you are a tiresome troll, that’s what I think, and I wish there was someone here with some intellectual integrity and depth of character with whom I could discuss this topic, instead of your nonsensical and irrelevant distractions which, IMO, add nothing of any value.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
Good Reference? Then ulvfugl sez ya got “nothing of your own to offer.”
Cool game there, troll.
November 17th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
Next, ulvfugl posts a wall of text, because why?
“nothing of your own to offer.”
Think he sees himself that way? Nope. LOL!
November 17th, 2012 at 9:01 pm
Okay, I’m done with your foolish games, Ivy Mike, you’re a complete waste of my time.
Anybody else got anything worthwhile to contribute ?
November 17th, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Is a constant stream of insults the 5th Noble Truth for you, ulvfugl?
November 17th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
A summary integrating many posts preceding it on the issues of renewables and other alt.fuels, by the insightful Tom Murphy whose his skills at mathematics and physics bring a modicum of sanity to the conversation at his blog Do the Math.
The Alternative Energy Matrix
November 17th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
Good stuff, Robin.
November 17th, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Jeez, the fact that you think that that Godesky quote is a ‘good reference’ just shows to me how utterly intellectually bankrupt you are and out of touch with reality and the whole drift of this topic…
Most will choose to die
No they will not ! They’ll choose to stay alive, by eating the food that industrial agriculture provides for them, which means the oil companies keep drilling and ‘civilisation’ keeps on going for as long as it can… until it can’t.
Which is the whole point of what I’ve been saying here these last hours. That’s why we are doomed. That’s why there’s no solution.
November 17th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
ulvfugl 9:01 pm: Okay, I’m done
ulvfugl 9:13 pm: Jeez
As the door turneth upon his hinges…
ulvfugl: »Most will choose to die« No they will not!
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” ~Arnold J. Toynbee
So much for your vaunted familiarity with history, ulvfugl.
November 17th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
This what you meant, Robin ?
When I first approached the subject of energy in our society, I expected to develop a picture in my mind of our grandiose future, full of alternative energy sources like solar, wind, nuclear, biofuels, geothermal, tidal, etc. What I got instead was something like this matrix: full of inadequacies, difficulties, and show-stoppers. Our success at managing the transition away from fossil fuels while maintaining our current standard of living is far from guaranteed. If such success is our goal, we should realize the scale of the challenge and buckle down now while we still have the resources to develop a costly new infrastructure. Otherwise we get behind the curve, possibly facing unfamiliar chaos, loss of economic confidence, resource wars, and the unforgiving Energy Trap. The other controlled option is to deliberately adjust our lives to require fewer resources, preferably abandoning the growth paradigm at the same time. Can we manage a calm, orderly exit from the building? In either case, the first step is to agree that the building is in trouble. Techno-optimism keeps us from even agreeing on that.
I think we already a long way behind the curve. I think we had our chance and we blew it. UK government seems set on fracking and importing more gas.
I deliberately adjusted my life to require fewer resources, long ago, for ethical reasons.
The rest of the country took a different view and consumption and emissions have continued to rise, even during economic decline. There doesn’t seem to be anybody in the positions of power who has a clue.
November 17th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
ulvfugl 8:09 pm I’m willing to bet an arm and a leg that I know a hell of a lot more about European history that you do…
Who’s Toynbee? LOL!
Ah well, just keep your arm and leg; ‘twoundn’t be right to deprive a man of the only thing his intellect is capable of swaying.
November 17th, 2012 at 10:08 pm
The tar-baby troll who has nothing of his own to say…
I’ve read Toynbee.
I’ts a stupid and irrelevant quote.
First, I was talking about real individual humans and their personal deaths, not an abstraction like ‘civilisations’. People commit suicide or get murdered. A civilisation is not a person.
Second, what civilisation ever knowingly ‘committed suicide’ ? That’s not how it works, whether you’re talking about Mayans, Romans, Assyrians, Mycenaeans, Minoans, there are very many reasons why they collapsed and vanished. None ever came to a collective decision ‘okay, let’s all give up and die’.
Even if I was to accept the figure of speech, it’s still obviously wrong. For example the Aztec and Inca civilisations were ‘murdered’, by the Spanish and Portuguese.
I began this inviting criticism of the logic of my initial statement. You, as I expected, provided none, just played your usual game throwing out random quotes that have no bearing upon the topic and showed that you don’t actually know anything about anything. Which again makes me wonder why you are here all day every day, when you claim to be a farmer, whilst having no understanding of what this blog is about.
November 17th, 2012 at 10:42 pm
This essay first appeared in Mike Ruppert’s blog From the Wilderness as a guest post. The author later went on to write a book with the same title.
The premise is that industrial agriculture is a process – which like all processes requires energy – to convert energy to food energy. Photosynthesis remains essential, but in the net energy balance is a small player.
The ERoEI of industrial food is lower than that of any prior large-scale food produced.
Eating Fossil Fuels
by Dale Allen Pfeiffer
November 17th, 2012 at 11:31 pm
Still bickering three and one half hours later.
Oh well.
Good details Robin Datta.
Photosynthesis is the way to go.
November 17th, 2012 at 11:31 pm
Correction four and a half hours later….
November 17th, 2012 at 11:55 pm
ulffugl is the champion at ticking off lesser mortals. Should he get a prize?!
November 18th, 2012 at 12:11 am
ulvfugl
If you prefer:
“At an individual level most of the decisions we make are perfectly sane, even though the cumulative effect of these decisions is the destruction of our home”
Barely changes the meaning of what I wrote. The least sane thing I’ve done all day is to post on NBL. By that measure, you are a few degrees less sane than I am.
November 18th, 2012 at 2:48 am
Thanks for the ‘Eating Fossil Fuels’ link, Robin, which is very relevant.
There’s one technical point that I think is wrong. That it takes 500 years to replace one inch of topsoil. I used to believe that, because I’ve seen it written in a lot of books. I’m not sure how someone arrived at that figure. Maybe it’s from particular kinds of U.S. soil ( prairie ? ) that is treated with ploughing and heavy machinery for wheat ? There’s large fields in UK that have been treated like that, and you can actually see the loss by looking at the field margins, where the old soil level is much higher than the level of the cultivated field, a lot of soil has been removed by water erosion, etc.
However, using permaculture or organic methods soil can be made really astonishingly fast. All the microorganisms, insects and plants like making soil. I had an area here which was sterile granite chippings when I arrived. Grass and weeds grew over it. I’ve removed that turf, plus an inch or two of soil that formed, several times in twenty years.
Pfeiffer’s closing paragraph ( 2003 ) is worth quoting :
Considering the utter necessity of population reduction, there are three obvious choices awaiting us.
We can-as a society-become aware of our dilemma and consciously make the choice not to add more people to our population. This would be the most welcome of our three options, to choose consciously and with free will to responsibly lower our population. However, this flies in the face of our biological imperative to procreate. It is further complicated by the ability of modern medicine to extend our longevity, and by the refusal of the Religious Right to consider issues of population management. And then, there is a strong business lobby to maintain a high immigration rate in order to hold down the cost of labor. Though this is probably our best choice, it is the option least likely to be chosen.
Failing to responsibly lower our population, we can force population cuts through government regulations. Is there any need to mention how distasteful this option would be? How many of us would choose to live in a world of forced sterilization and population quotas enforced under penalty of law? How easily might this lead to a culling of the population utilizing principles of eugenics?
This leaves the third choice, which itself presents an unspeakable picture of suffering and death. Should we fail to acknowledge this coming crisis and determine to deal with it, we will be faced with a die-off from which civilization may very possibly never revive. We will very likely lose more than the numbers necessary for sustainability. Under a die-off scenario, conditions will deteriorate so badly that the surviving human population would be a negligible fraction of the present population. And those survivors would suffer from the trauma of living through the death of their civilization, their neighbors, their friends and their families. Those survivors will have seen their world crushed into nothing.
The questions we must ask ourselves now are, how can we allow this to happen, and what can we do to prevent it? Does our present lifestyle mean so much to us that we would subject ourselves and our children to this fast approaching tragedy simply for a few more years of conspicuous consumption?
Author’s Note
This is possibly the most important article I have written to date. It is certainly the most frightening, and the conclusion is the bleakest I have ever penned. This article is likely to greatly disturb the reader; it has certainly disturbed me. However, it is important for our future that this paper should be read, acknowledged and discussed.
I am by nature positive and optimistic. In spite of this article, I continue to believe that we can find a positive solution to the multiple crises bearing down upon us. Though this article may provoke a flood of hate mail, it is simply a factual report of data and the obvious conclusions that follow from it.
That’s the crux of it, really, isn’t it. We could return to much more labour intensive, but much more productive, small scale permaculture-type of peasant agriculture. I think that would be good.
I suppose, in a nutshell, it’s sort of, given the choice, would you prefer to die today ? or in a week or a years time ? And most people probably want to live as long as they can, even if that means things are made worse for their own children in the future…
That’s not something I can answer for anyone else.
November 18th, 2012 at 2:50 am
Jay, thanks for the compliment, if that’s what it is, but I don’t want any prize. The subject is too grim and awful. I think it is worth trying to understand it, even if there is nothing that can be done to change it.
November 18th, 2012 at 2:57 am
Yorchichan, it was a very minor quibble. It is not easy to be sane and rational when talking about such a crazy subject, such as this, the imminent extinction of the human species, I don’t think it is easy for anyone to get their head around that, is it…
I’m sure everyone is sick of hearing from me, but if anyone can find some flaws in my initial analysis, that show where I’ve overlooked something, please, let’s hear them….
Like Dave Mc said, in the previous thread, we should be looking for secret doors, not just assuming there are none because we didn’t see one yet….
November 18th, 2012 at 3:26 am
I’ll agree with Ken Barrows. A lot of good stuff is being presented. But if words could kill, some of us in this group would be dead. Our love of violence is what is killing the planet (and this blog). We will reap what we sow. Why should we expect otherwise?
David
November 18th, 2012 at 3:55 am
It seems to me when the oil runs out that civilisation will return to a hunter gatherer society, the only food source remaining will be the other hunter gatherers, a bit like the old couple in the book of Eli I guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Eli
I suppose this will impact on the population overshoot although it’s not a future that I aspire to. Vegetarianism and a large garden appeals to me however I’m acutely aware this makes me look like a cow in a field to these future “farmers”.
November 18th, 2012 at 5:48 am
ulvfugl 4:06 pm: striving to find ethical ways to live.
ulvfugl 9:33 pm: I deliberately adjusted my life to require fewer resources, long ago, for ethical reasons.
“If a man speaks of how ethical he is, make him pay cash.”
That’s the difference between you and I, ulvfugl.
You’re an oversocializedprig, like most of Guys hairshirt green acolytes here.
I say, give up the corporate rat-race because living outside of the rat-race is more PLEASURABLE.
And for all times Guy invokes Jefferson, he doesn’t seem to know much of his philosophy. Nor does he realize when he and you mewl about all “the hard work” that all you’re proving is that you simply doesn’t know what the hell you’re doing; more primitive means less work.
“The life of an Indian is a continual holiday…” ~Thomas Paine
• EPICUREAN (a school of Hedonism)
- Pleasure is the greatest good.
- Live modestly, limit one’s desires.
• STOIC
- Moral and intellectual perfection.
- Virtue is sufficient for happiness.
Which way does Jefferson lean?
“As you say of yourself, I TOO AM AN EPICUREAN. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing every thing rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, October 31, 1819
And don’t forget Jefferson copied the hedonist philosopher Jeremy Bentham’s phrase, “pursuit of happiness,” into the Declaration of Independence.
November 18th, 2012 at 6:08 am
Hairshirt Green = HG
GIVE UP YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS!
HG: SWEAT AND TOIL!
HG: NO MORE FUCKING IN THE FRONT HOLE!
HG: LOOK HOW FUCKING SELF-RIGHTEOUS I AM!
Rest of the world: Huh, dude, you from the Vatican?
HG: YOU ARE ALL GOING TO BURN IN HELL! SEND YOUR HATE MAIL TO _____@_____.com
Holy cow! That’s the way a hairshirt green like Guy, Kathy, ulvfugl, etal come across.
==============
Contrast
==============
“The life of an Indian is a continual holiday…” ~Thomas Paine
“…consume less energy per capita per year than any other group of human beings…all the people’s material wants were easily satisfied.” ~Marshall Sahlins, The Original Affluent Society
“Having few artificial Wants, they [Indians] have abundance of Leisure for Improvement by Conversation.” ~Benjamin Franklin
Pleasure is the greatest good. Live modestly, limit one’s desires: the Epicurean way. “I TOO AM AN EPICUREAN.” ~Thomas Jefferson
November 18th, 2012 at 6:30 am
Naomi Kline on Capitalism and Climate Change in a Bill Moyers interview:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/bill-moyers/46616/naomi-klein-on-capitalism-and-climate-change
November 18th, 2012 at 6:40 am
It seems very clear that you do not understand what the word ‘ethical’ means, Ivy Mike.
And your ‘that’s the difference between you and me’ is a non sequituur, having no connection whatsoever to the previous sentences.
In other words, nonsense. The idea that being ethical and having a pleasurable life are mutually exclusive is simply absurd.
I have no idea what you mean by over-socialised, other than it’s Kaczynski’s idea, not yours. Most people who’ve known me have considered me under-socialised. I have never been IN the corporate rat race, so there was never any need for me to leave it.
You don’t actually have any ideas of your own, do you, Ivy Mike. You criticise others, tell them they are wrong, but you have nothing constructive to offer.
After all those comments, and you STILL have no clue. What does it matter what Tom Paine, or Jefferson, or Bentham thought. about the lives of the Indians or anything else ? It has no relevance AT ALL to today, with a world of 7 billion and nuclear weapons and climate chaos.
The rest is just gibberish. We’re not in the 1700s. The population of Europe is something like 800 million. The idea that they can all start living like Indians and go hunting and gathering is delusional.
Having spent some hours attempting to communicate with you, as I said before, it’s a waste of time. Perhaps some others have gained something from it.
November 18th, 2012 at 6:47 am
Geoff Lawton’s inspiring new video:
http://permaculturenews.org/2012/11/12/ … ton-video/
An email is required to see the video prior to general release.
My personal opinion is it is past time to change the course of climate disruption. That being said, I’m not going to stop doing positive work whenever I can.
November 18th, 2012 at 6:47 am
BILL MOYERS: First, congratulations on the baby. NAOMI KLEIN: Thank you so much.
OMG! A BREEDER! That just won’t do around here, Tom.
• “If somebody wants to have a litter of children, ignorantly or fully aware of our dire straits, I have little interest…” ~Guy McPherson
• “I would only join a community where there are no fucking couples. A community that would be over all the fucking. Hear me, I don’t care what people do, I just wish I could find for myself a non-fucking community knowing pretty well it is impossible.” ~michele/montreal (Oct. 9)
• “…stick to abstinence…give up your biological imperative…” ~Kathy C
If Naomi throws the baby in the trash bin and makes a pilgrimage to the sweaty neo-Calvinist sage in the mud hut, then you can post her interview here. OK, Tom?
• “You’ll first have to give up your beloved life and livelihood and walk away from all your colleagues, friends, and family. ~Guy McPherson (Oct. 15)
November 18th, 2012 at 6:51 am
ulvfugl: We’re not in the 1700s.
Guy McPherson: “…the post-industrial Stone Age… If you’re alive in a decade, it will be because you’ve figured out how to forage locally.”
Bring your tripe up with Guy, ulvfugl.
November 18th, 2012 at 7:05 am
You live in your own fantasy, Ivy Mike. I try to face the real situation.
November 18th, 2012 at 7:24 am
Deer season opened yesterday. Now the urge to kill is legal and the trophy seekers are at work. We raise a lot of deer here on the farm so I get to see the excitment. The urge for violence predominates. Although a 10 pointer is the goal, the ultimate trophy is the planet. Hang a bloody globe above the fireplace. Think what killing the planet would do for your ego.
November 18th, 2012 at 7:56 am
ulvfugl, send Guy your hate mail about being “delusional” if you disagree with Guy’s position, OK?
ulvfugl: The idea that they can all start living like Indians and go hunting and gathering is delusional.
“…the post-industrial Stone Age… If you’re alive in a decade, it will be because you’ve figured out how to forage locally.”
~Guy R. McPherson
University of Arizona professor
The Arizona Republic | Apr. 6, 2008
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0406vip-mcpherson0406.html
November 18th, 2012 at 8:04 am
Dave, we say around here during the season: “If it’s brown, it goes down!” Wear orange. Paint the cows an orange stripe too.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:04 am
Ivy Mike, I have great respect for Guy McPherson’s intelligence, honour, integrity, intellectual honesty, also for his personal sacrifices so that he can be true to his principles and ethics and knowledge, and I admire his great skill as a teacher.
As for you, I have no idea why you come to this site or post the stuff that you do, other than that you enjoy trolling, or someone pays you to do it.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:07 am
ulvfugl, take your delusional hate mail and other assorted bullshit up with Guy, because you disagree with Guy. Why do you even come here trolling?
ulvfugl: The idea that they can all start living like Indians and go hunting and gathering is delusional.
“…the post-industrial Stone Age… If you’re alive in a decade, it will be because you’ve figured out how to forage locally.”
~Guy R. McPherson
University of Arizona professor
The Arizona Republic | Apr. 6, 2008
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0406vip-mcpherson0406.html
November 18th, 2012 at 8:20 am
I don’t disagree with Guy at all, IMO, he’s one of the very few who ‘gets it’.
You claim there’s a disagreement, but that’s because you have no understanding or insight, you don’t even care about the issues, you just want to arm wrestle and cause discord, for your own perverse and unpleasant motives.
When did YOU ever contribute a serious, thoughtful and intellectually respectable comment on this blog ? Never !
November 18th, 2012 at 8:50 am
Ivy Mike
From the previous thread:
What Stephen Colbert is to Bill O’Reilly, I am to Guy McPherson (and his acolytes.)
Stephen Colbert on The O’Reilly Factor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QquTUR9nbC4
Just watched that clip. The exchange between Colbert and O’Reilly appeared rather more humorous than those between you and Guy (+ acolytes). Are you hoping for Guy + acolytes to lighten up? They have too much energy invested in near term extinction for that to happen. Plus they are almost certainly right about the die-off (if not the extinction), even if their timing is a little out.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:30 am
The kids are lookin’ for solutions, whatever the future holds notwithstanding:
http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/most-popular/americas-top-young-scientist-2012.html
November 18th, 2012 at 9:56 am
Hi Susan,
here is a great article:
http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/renewable-energy-the-vision-and-a-dose-of-reality.html
November 18th, 2012 at 10:10 am
.
Tom, that young female scientist is misguided and at fault. If she wants a get out of jail free card, she needs to give up her insane way of life, put on an apron, take care of the home and harvest the fields, and reject science and technology unless it helps bring profit for the farm. Thirty thousand steps a day is her path to salvation, not a laboratory full of beakers and test tubes.
Blessed are the Amish, for they have inherited the land stolen from the Indians. I’m pretty sure if it wasn’t for the greater System at large, there would be no Amish. There current existence is precisely because of the larger System, and therefore, they are complicit, despite protestations to the contrary.
.
November 18th, 2012 at 10:16 am
Vinay Gupta talk on Europe
November 18th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Guy’s post brings to mind a song I made up that’s been stuck in my head the last few days so I thought I’d share it.
Sung to the tune of:
THERE WAS A OLD LADY THAT SWALLOWED A FLY
There once was a culture that swallowed a lie
I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
Perhaps they’ll die
There once was a culture that damaged the land
Their quest to expand made them damage the land
They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
Perhaps they’ll die
There once was a culture that ruined the ocean
Oh what a notion!
To ruin the ocean
They ruined the ocean and damaged the land
Their quest to expand made them damage the land
They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
Perhaps they’ll die
There once was a culture that poisoned the air
They did not care that they poisoned the air
They poisoned the air and ruined the ocean
They ruined the ocean and damaged the land
Their quest to expand made them damage the land
They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
Perhaps they’ll die
There once was a culture that brought life to the brink
Things go extinct when life’s at the brink
They brought life to the brink and poisoned the air
They poisoned the air and ruined the ocean
They ruined the ocean and damaged the land
Their quest to expand made them damage the land
They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
Perhaps they’ll die
There once was a culture that showed no remorse
They died of course!
November 18th, 2012 at 10:41 am
IN THE PAST I really loved reading NBL not just for the essays but for the intelligent comments which followed. I’m not sure what happened or how it happened but the comment sections, especially this one, are dominated by only THREE contributors: Ivy Mike, Morroco Bama and ulvfugl. These three are amazing egomaniacs and, in my opinion, have pretty much destroyed the enjoyment I had in the past reading the different perspectives from the commentors. Now, of 125 responses the the majority are the same three donkeys braying the same old egoity.
Guy, maybe it is time to shut this blog down or at least rename it to IvyMikeMorrocoBama&elfuglerBatLast.com
I shall still read the essays but it is clear now there is no point in reading the comments if it is only the same three people – I am so VERY sick and tired of their BS and egomania.
Goodbye to all the other intelligent posters who seem to have given up as I have.
November 18th, 2012 at 11:17 am
There is more to this than meets the eye. Walt Kelly said “We have met the enemy and he is us.” This blog and the absolute verbal warfare that it engenders is as much a part of the equation as any other fruitless negativity and hostility. The industrialized human has been raised in a corrupted society in which status, power, and material possessions are the measure of a person. This corruption is as much a part of the problem as technical or philosophical issues mentioned here. These corruptions are symptomatic of other corruptions. Too many know-it-alls have elevated themselves to be the true purveyors of reality, when the study of history seems to show that most of it unfolds as a series of unforeseeable accidents. Instead of awarding oneself the throne for being the “emperor” of seers, I suggest that we each do whatever we can to find a better way that is less material intensive. We are all momentary sparks inhabiting meat robots. Nobody ever said life was going to be easy. But if we try to find balance and love in the world, that may be the best path to minimizing suffering. No replies solicited.
November 18th, 2012 at 11:47 am
So, guys, is it a notch in your belt every time someone announces how disgusted they are with the comments and that they won’t be reading them anymore? Do you dance a little victory dance? Let’s see, how many different ways could you bash what I’m saying here? How long can you make that scroll bar on the side?
dairymandave2003 said it beautifully: But if words could kill, some of us in this group would be dead. Our love of violence is what is killing the planet (and this blog). We will reap what we sow.
November 18th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Guy,
I belief that a day probably doesn’t go by, where anyone who is aware of even the potential threat of near term extinction, doesn’t wake in the morning, with some kind of awful relentless sinking feeling. For those who have achieved a level of acceptance, we have found ourselves in a terribly lonely place, and it’s perfectly natural why so many others would negatively react to such a catastrophic reality.
I’m also coming to believe that for anyone who fully grasps both the science and its implications, that they probably have long battled with a degree of depression. IMO, depression is practically a prerequisite for being able to concentrate on such emotionally and psychologically ruinous phenomena. It’s one thing to be able to sit back and coolly analyze the data, but once that data begins to reflect massive intractable societal fallout, a certain disposition is almost required. I’m sure many of us here, have personally experienced the obtuseness of others who simply refuse to abandon their “hopium”. (brilliant neologism by the way).
In the face of such overwhelming emotions, as I’ve written before, I believe that many of us are no longer looking to perpetuate the needless debate–which has literally been raging for decades–as to how billions of people can somehow magically sustain themselves in a finite biosphere that can only sustain a faction of our numbers. All exponential growth curves eventually end the same way, it’s only a question of timing.
In my opinion, you’re right, this blog has in many ways run its course, its original objective is effectively no longer pertinent. Once near term extinction became an ever encroaching and unavoidable reality, everything, suddenly started to become irrelevant. But, this doesn’t mean this blog can no longer serve a greater purpose. It can be a place where those who do accept, or are in the process of coming to terms with the potential threat of near term extinction, can attempt to commiserate the associative unfathomable sorrow that naturally follows it, as well as, attempt to gain a better understanding of the contributing and often times confounding evidence, which might aid us all in making the best informed decisions we can……….all things considered.
This level of commiseration, is simply not possible for those who either don’t accept, or refuse to accept the existing evidence, and they will naturally take offense to those who do, as I would, if I were in their shoes. But I, as well as many others here, aren’t interested in what long time deniers have to say anymore.
Doubt and skepticism is healthy, it is needed. But when the “intent” of such skepticism in clearly not intended to clarify the evidence, but only obfuscate it with malice and indignation, then their input becomes highly inappropriate.
Many of us here are probably obsessive people in our own right. Obviously, some are more passionate than others. Ulvfugl is an apparent example of the highly charged and passionate opinion on display at NBL. And even though his fervor can at times get the better of him, especially when taking the bait, as well as baiting others, he like the rest of us, can lose some perspective from time to time. But through it all, Ulvfugl’s humanity and integrity brilliantly shines through. He is clearly extremely knowledgeable and erudite on the subject of collapse, and it can be a little overwhelming. And while I take issue with some of the perspectives of MB, I sense he as well, is coming from an authentic and honest place. He has children. I do not. So, I can’t even begin to imagine, how a parent with youngsters will discover the coping mechanisms for facing such a daunting future, and I think his questioning of what’s appropriate behavior in the face of near term extinction is very important, and this is something I think we’re all wrestling with.
Cheers to Jennifer Hartley!!!
However, I can’t say the same about Ivy Mike. His needless pedantic contributions have been nefarious at best. His egotism and disdain of others is beyond inappropriate. I can sense no humility, empathy or compassion in his postings. And given the sheer volume of his petty and antagonizing input, I’m getting tired of having to continue to scroll pass them. If ever there was an example of a troll needing to be permanently blocked from NBL, we need look no further.
So Guy, please keep this site up and running, I trust your judgment, most of us do, it’s why we’re here. All I ask is that you remove those whose intent is only to denigrate the genuine contributions of others, simply because they disagree.
I am in no way, telling anyone what or how to think, but clearly NBL is a meeting place of like minds who grasp the imminence before us, and who are wanting/needing/looking to commiserate with fellow travelers who comprehend this gravity as well, as opposed to being endlessly assaulted for having to bear such unwanted heaviness in our hearts.
Thanks, Daniel.
November 18th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
I’m sorry I had to say that. I’m sorry about a lot of things. It’s such a nice day today. So sunny and calm, I just sit here and look out the window at it. How many more?
We raised 4 girls. One found this world too hostile, too violent. She left 2 teens. This leaves scars so we don’t forget. I’m sorry I had to say this.
David
November 18th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Madmanintheattic,
Repeating the suggestion of Kathy C, “Use the scrollbar.”
Michael Irving
November 18th, 2012 at 2:43 pm
@Daniel–Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Finding a way to keep pushing forward, still looking for that small glimmer of hope becomes more difficult every day.
@Jennifer Harley– Without refreshing I make the score
Ivy Mike——–49
ulvfugi———-44
others———–39
Michael Irving
November 18th, 2012 at 2:47 pm
@Daniel
You are absolutely correct about each day bringing a “relentless sinking feeling”. Also a sense of dread, a huge weight which smothers. Today is beautiful, and I took the three little ones to the park, but everything feels “off”. I always hate to get new-agey, but I’m very sensitive to different energies, and whether you want to call it the collective unconscious, or whatever, I think most people on some basic level are aware of whats going on, and are walking around with barely contained panic. We are all just a part of this world, no matter how much we try to be “above” it all, or separate ourselves from nature, compartmentalize, etc…
Anyway, I have a hard time protecting myself from errant energies that come from other people, and even worse, my small children are very sensitive to it as well, and I have no way to protect them, either. My oldest is almost 5, with multiple life-threatening food allergies, serious environmental allergies, and asthma, and since he started pre-school, he has had 2 lung infections and a horrible virus. I feel like I can barely keep him alive on a day to day basis, and worrying about the future, and the availability of medicines he needs to live is more that I can wrap my mind around.
I have struggled with depression my whole life, but recently had an anxiety episode, unlike any I have ever experienced. It affected my hearing and disconnected me from my surroundings, not the racing heart, hyperventilating type I’ve had before, but indeed, the doctor said it was a panic attack. I felt like I was shutting down by shutting the world out, without the explicit permission from my “mind”.
So, I guess I have no point, really, just that I’m “feeling it”.
@dairymandave I’m sorry for the loss of your daughter. I’ve found myself in that place, but try not to visit it since having children. I’m sorry for many things, too.
November 18th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
HROEI
Life’s hard, but yet we’re more tested
Now that our energy’s crested;
Increasing crappiness
Decreases Happiness
Returned On Energy Invested.
November 18th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
.
BS
At the heart of culture is the compulsion to believe
Shirking of former convictions gives no reprieve
So here’s the decree
Perpetual Certainty
And if you’re not sure, then please kindly take leave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LcIHwanRqs&feature=fvwrel
.
November 18th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
@ Madmanintheattic ….have pretty much destroyed the enjoyment I had in the past reading the different perspectives….
I am truly sorry if I have put you off reading the comments here, Madmanintheattic, but, look, we are talking about *the extinction of the human species*, the premature deaths of billions, and the extinction of much of life on Earth… that’s hardly a subject anyone would want to read about for recreational enjoyment, is it ? All the same, I am indeed very sorry if your pleasure has been spoiled.
If you believe there is something wrong in Guy’s original analysis, or in my own analysis, then you could have made some comments with regard to that, as a positive contribution rather than a criticism ?
@ Jennifer Hartley, likewise, I have no wish to put anyone off reading these comments. My intention is to understand and explain the predicament we face. If you see errors or possibilities in the analysis, you too could have commented. As it has been, whatever I say here gets distorted, twisted and diverted by other commenters. I do take the destruction of the biosphere personally. It’s my world too, which I love more than anything. In the past I have been willing to bite my lip, but that does not solve or resolve anything, does it. Better to get it all out in the open, then everyone can see where they stand, for better or worse, IMO.
@ Daniel. Thank you for the very kind words.
@ David. Sorry about your grief. I actually find the idea of killing deer, or anything else, for pleasure, far more repellent and offensive than any words on a computer screen.
@BadlandsAK, my heart goes out to you, it does seem so unfair that you have to endure so much.
Godesky was quoted above : Most will choose to die; we cannot change that. It would be just as wrong to force them to choose life as it was for Kaczinski to force others to die. What we can do is try as hard as we can to make sure everyone understands that it truly is a choice they face. When hearing this defense, many progressivists will claim that our willingness to “allow” such a thing to happen is characterized as monstrous. First, the hubris dripping from such a statement is absurd; we do not “allow” such things to happen any more than we “allow” the sun to shine or the rain to fall.
I find that unacceptable. It’s like saying ‘millions of jews were sent to the death camps’. But it wasn’t ‘millions of jews’, it was millions of individual human beings, each with their own story and hopes and fears and life…
This tragedy didn’t ‘just happen’, like rain falling, it has been brought about by human decisions, people with faces and names and addresses, who have chosen one priority over another….
‘Billions will die’ is much too easy. A phrase that slips off the tongue. Those billions are all people who someone knows, is related to, with faces and feelings and characters… No doubt, a lot of them, I’d find personally unattractive, and easy not to care about…. but there are also so many wonderful, wonderful, delightful people, and it is so heart-breaking to think that their hopes for a life are taken away from them… too heart-breaking… the only grief that matches, is the tragedy of all the other living creatures, that are blameless, and the loss of the staggering beauty of this fabulous Earth…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p010v3zt
November 18th, 2012 at 5:13 pm
.
I’m confused about what is meant, precisely, by “this culture.” Is it referring to just “American” culture? To Western culture? Stormcrow’s song could easily apply to Russian culture, or Japanese culture, or Chinese culture. So, what does “this culture” mean?
.
November 18th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
“Too many know-it-alls have elevated themselves to be the true purveyors of reality, when the study of history seems to show that most of it unfolds as a series of unforeseeable accidents. Instead of awarding oneself the throne for being the “emperor” of seers, I suggest that we each do whatever we can to find a better way that is less material intensive. We are all momentary sparks inhabiting meat robots. Nobody ever said life was going to be easy. But if we try to find balance and love in the world, that may be the best path to minimizing suffering.”
Amen, brother.
I too fail to understand why the comments section has become an interminable debate between the same 3 individuals. What’s the point of these exchanges? What is it you think you are going to win if you get the last word in? If we agree that the time for a “normal” life is very short and on the other side of “normal” is extinction and horror, then who cares whether Jared Diamond’s critique of agriculture is correct?
If a bunch of anonymous typists can’t even manage civility on a blog of this nature (which presupposes a certain level of awareness, otherwise you wouldn’t be here), then I suppose we will be doing the universe a favor by self-eradicating this species of self important neochimpanzees.
November 18th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Whatever their environmental virtues, the Amish are utterly unsustainable simply because of their high birthrates, some 2-3X replacement level. Their population is increasing by 2-3% annually, doubling approximately every 20-25 years, quadrupling every 40-50 years, 8X as large after 75 years, etc. In other words, classic, unsustainable exponential growth.
Worse, unlike other traditional groups that undergo a demographic transition (from high birth rates and high death rates to low birth rates and low death rates), they show no signs of “modernizing” and moderating their attitudes towards birth control and large families; large families and the rejection of birth control seem central to their very self-identity.
It’s a demographic time bomb, in slow motion perhaps, but a time bomb nonetheless.
November 18th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
depressive lucidity : …If we agree that the time for a “normal” life is very short and on the other side of “normal” is extinction and horror, then who cares whether Jared Diamond’s critique of agriculture is correct?
Yes, but the story is constantly unrolling, like a carpet, before us, it’s an unfolding dialectic.
I recently watched an old video by Winona Laduke. At the time, she was a cutting edge radical. Now it seems very dated and tame, talking about windmills and electric cars. At that time people thought that was a way forward. Now, in retrospect, it looks like just another technofix fantasy to try and keep the same old system afloat for a little longer.
There was a time when Jared Diamond seemed cutting edge and radical, with his talk of the collapse of civilisations, because people couldn’t yet imagine that such a thing could happen to us, and yet now those thoughts fairly are mainstream.
Naomi Klein seemed cutting edge and radical, with No Logo, but, to me, now, her ideas also seem very tame and dated.
This keeps on happening. For me, now, this blog seems where it’s at, because Guy has the courage to say publicly what others will not, ( even if they may think it in private.)
What seems to happen, is that someone, say, Daniel Quinn, comes up with a new insight, people slowly catch on, thinking ‘that makes sense’, and then others find flaws or holes or counter-narratives, and some other story becomes the new ‘radical’…. this isn’t going to stop, is it.
We’re going to experience ever more frequent and devastating shocks, which we will have to interpret and assimilate. Nobody likes this, nobody wants it, it’s just the story of our times, similar perhaps to what it was like for Europeans to live through the Black Death, when about a third of the population perished over a short period, and everyone’s lives were completely changed.
We’re all learning as we go along. Some people have very strongly held views on some of the issues, so it’s inevitable that there will be vitriolic and acrimonious clashes and disputes from time to time. It’s been like this since ancient Greece at least, surely long before, I don’t think it will change.
It’s why there’s two sword lengths between the seats in the British Parliament, because people used to carry their swords and get angry enough to stand up and draw them, when they debated emotive issues, like whether or not to behead the King or not…
At the moment, I fully believe, in all good faith, that the likely future is a Guy has described. I fully believe what I have stated on this thread. But, who knows what strange twist might occur ? The Yellowstone Super Volcano ? Oxygen levels starting to drop ? Then the whole picture gets changed…
All any of us can do is to get as well-informed as possible, and be honest in our assessments.
As I’ve mentioned, I’ve been through the grief, I believe we have lost this marvellous world, as a result of human stupidity. That does not seem to have dawned upon the general population yet, even some readers here. It takes time to sink in.
To a degree, that experience has drained the humanity out of me, tore my heart out. I had never realised or expected that people could be so quite ignorant and evil. What remains is a deep anger, because all this horror could have been readily avoided. Twenty, thirty, years ago, we had a really good chance. The other thing that remains, is constant joy at the great beauty that surrounds me here and that I observe each day that I continue to live.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:01 pm
GUY’S April 2008 PREDICTION: “Later this year, we fall off the oil-supply cliff, with global supply plummeting below 70 million barrels/day. Oil at merely $100 per barrel will seem like the good old days.”
2012 REALITY: Still above 70 mbpd, no “plummeting” in supply, lower oil price.
“a result of human stupidity” ???
“attempt to commiserate the associative unfathomable” !!!
November 18th, 2012 at 8:04 pm
O2 Dropping Faster than CO2 Rising
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/O2DroppingFasterThanCO2Rising.php
November 18th, 2012 at 8:20 pm
David, I am so sorry for the loss of your daughter. You don’t need to apologize for saying it. The scars are real and must be honored. I’m so sorry your family has had to experience such anguish.
Daniel, I agree with you completely. I will commiserate with you any day.
Ulvfugl, I don’t object to your analysis. I greatly appreciate most of what you write. But you don’t have to allow yourself to be baited over and over. You don’t have to lash out in response. Intelligent analysis cannot be heard over the din of insults. And it doesn’t matter who started it. You can do better. So can others. If the vitriol rises, there are choices to be made about how to respond. You write, I have no wish to put anyone off reading these comments. I’m sincerely glad that is a goal of yours. Please consider your words carefully.
Morocco Bama, “this culture,” to me, means the culture of industrial civilization, domination, control, exploitation, colonization, violence, and greed. Its reach is global.
BadlandsAK, I’m really sorry that you and your kids are having such a hard time. I have had panic attacks before and they are knock-down drag-out awful. They often don’t look or feel like what people might expect them to look or feel like. It’s painful and disorienting, I know. You are right, it’s not just you who experiences anxiety and depression, and through the awfulness, I still believe it is a normal human response to insane circumstances.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
depressive lucidity Says: If a bunch of anonymous typists can’t even manage civility on a blog of this nature (which presupposes a certain level of awareness, otherwise you wouldn’t be here), then I suppose we will be doing the universe a favor by self-eradicating this species of self important neochimpanzees.
Talking online is addictive,
And although the medium’s restrictive,
It gives a good view
Of what human groups do,
And in this way can be predictive.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:52 pm
@BadlandsAK
Damn friend, that kind of anxiety leaves me speechless, and I feel hypocritical to even try to comprehend your dilemma. It’s easy to talk about “letting go”, but that doesn’t really apply to the care of dependent young children. That’s all about holding on the best you can. Other than exploring alternative remedies, which I’m sure you have, what other solution is there in regards to pharmaceuticals? I have several friends in a similar situation, and out respect for their circumstances, I usually keep my mouth shut about any of this shit. So like Jennifer H. I greatly admire your courage in not looking away, and hopefully that courage will eventually spill over into the rest of your life.
All I can say, is that while these anxiety attacks might seem like death warmed over, I would think that over time, they will only lessen, given you’re already looking into the abyss. I mean how much worse can it get, than contemplating near term extinction……other than living through it? It’s not as if you’re fooling yourself now, so as with most things, we will find a way to adapt, even if we haven’t a clue as to how. Thanks for your clarity and honesty, it’s very humbling. Daniel
November 18th, 2012 at 10:34 pm
ulvfugl, your point is well taken. From our limited perspective it is impossible to predict what the next 100 years will hold with any degree of certainty. Any number of unforeseen events could intervene and radically change the our trajectory towards NTE.
To borrow an example from Christianity (with all due respect to those who don’t subscribe to a religious worldview), from a human perspective the crucifixion seemed final and no one could have imagined a resurrection. Perhaps our future is cruciform. Perhaps we all must pass through a collective death (both spiritual and physical) before something of a higher order can be born.
As to the bickering, I agree that it is also a very human trait. At least you guys are arguing in the knowledge of what humanity is actually facing.
So, my brothers and sisters on this blog, I hope we can continue our dialogue. The fact that there are people out there who are intelligently awake gives me a little hope that Godot might one day show up and elevate the monkeys to a higher level of Being.
November 19th, 2012 at 1:52 am
One more thing I would like to add.
Thank you Daniel and Badlands for sharing your personal psychological struggles with the rest of us.
I imagine that most of us who visit this website on a regular basis are surrounded by people who are either oblivious to the situation, or at best are somewhat aware of the danger, but do not dare walk down that very dark path which leads to the acceptance that NTE is a very real possibility, not just a masochistic internet fantasy. One of the factors that causes depression IMO is the sense of acute alienation that accompanies knowledge. When someone realizes that the future has vanished, they fall out of the social meta-narrative into a kind of mental void. Suddenly walking around a city, or working in an office, where everyone is secure in their television induced Capitalist delusions becomes a very challenging experience.
The value of participation in this blog’s discussions is that sharing ideas (or even arguing) with others who have awakened to reality helps one cope with the alienation that most of us are experiencing in our daily lives. I find it comforting that there are others somewhere in cyberspace who see the same ominous phenomenon ‘slouching towards Bethlehem to be born.. ‘
November 19th, 2012 at 2:51 am
Here’s the better part of that story which should be known and I’m not sorry to tell. It’s been 7 years now and the first year was hard. Her children seem to be more mature than average, more grown up. That’s rare these days. One is successfully married. Tough times make us stronger and better able to handle problems, better able to handle the truth. I expect this same process will happen here on this blog…after the screaming stops.
To change the subject, this from NOAA:
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/11/october-was-looking-kind-normal-until-sandy-broke-record-books
David
November 19th, 2012 at 3:02 am
This from the World Bank… an underestimate IMO, but interesting that they are saying it.
The report says that the 4°C scenarios are potentially devastating: the inundation of coastal cities; increasing risks for food production potentially leading to higher under and malnutrition rates; many dry regions becoming dryer, wet regions wetter; unprecedented heat waves in many regions, especially in the tropics; substantially exacerbated water scarcity in many regions; increased intensity of tropical cyclones; and irreversible loss of biodiversity, including coral reef systems.
“The Earth system’s responses to climate change appear to be non-linear,” points out PIK Director, John Schellnhuber. “If we venture far beyond the 2 degrees guardrail, towards the 4 degrees line, the risk of crossing tipping points rises sharply. The only way to avoid this is to break the business-as-usual pattern of production and consumption.”
http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/2012/11/18/new-report-examines-risks-of-degree-hotter-world-by-end-of-century
November 19th, 2012 at 5:05 am
ulvfugl
I just heard this 10 minutes ago, on the late ABC news here in Sydney. I agree, when you write that it is an underestimate IYO, but what was telling to me was that the story was delivered without comment or further details.
Perhaps tomorrow, I will check the papers, but I am not holding my breath.
Perhaps it is just the beginning of the awakenning to the catastrophic NTE?
Also there was no comment on the ABC 7 O’clock news, weather segment, when the weather gut predicted ‘catastrophic’ heat and bush fire risk in South Australia. It is not even December yet!!
I would not be surprised if we see an escalation of reports, as if in a co-ordinated release, without a lot of comment, designed to have a panic effect, and it will work. But what is on the ‘front page’ of the public mind, who is plugged into everything?
Syr-a, G-z- and Isr–l. !!!
People are shit scared that this conflict will escalate.
Prestidigitation, again.!!
We will soon know.
November 19th, 2012 at 5:37 am
Thank you Anthony and red admiral for the comments and links in answer to my question. Very helpful in better understanding the problems inherent in alternative energy proposals. I still keep thinking that self-sufficient systems could be created on a more local level with solutions shared among the general population, but that’s likely just wishful thinking. We don’t have enough time.
Also thank you Robin Datta for your comments and links. Thank you thestormcrow for posting that poem. And thank you Jen Hartley for being you.
November 19th, 2012 at 5:52 am
Guy complains of insults, yet his buddy ulvfugl can insult all day.
But show how Guy is wrong, and Guy is not a scientist, Guy is not an anarchist. Guy is a petulant censor.
So just one more time, and then I’ll leave you alone, Guy. Because you’re a fragile flower and an intellectual fraud.
_______________
GUY’S April 2008 PREDICTION: “Later this year, we fall off the oil-supply cliff, with global supply plummeting below 70 million barrels/day. Oil at merely $100 per barrel will seem like the good old days.”
2012 REALITY: Still above 70 mbpd, no “plummeting” in supply, lower oil price.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:11 am
OzMan Says: Perhaps it is just the beginning of the awakenning to the catastrophic NTE?…. People are shit scared that this conflict will escalate….
If you like to worry, perhaps
This is when everything snaps:
By most doomer maps,
Not much time can elapse
Before we encounter collapse.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:48 am
depressive lucidity
I agree with the comments you make about the difficulty in relating to others who are ‘secure’, without the ‘knowledge’ it is all over red rover.
very hard to succintly communicate the NTE scenario and remain emotionally available – buy hey, someone’s got to do it, right?
Here are the wake up calls, most, ( who can afford to watch video fiction), should have taken so seriously:
‘Terminator will not stop …. Ever’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu0rP2VWLWw
‘The Road’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbLgszfXTAY
Some great work done here at NBL,
It’s been an honour to serve with you all.
!!!
November 19th, 2012 at 7:02 am
Ivy Mike
You wrote:
“2012 REALITY: Still above 70 mbpd, no “plummeting” in supply, lower oil price.”
Have you ever heard of the ‘intentionally engineered’ World Financial Crisis, (still unravelling)?
Demand has slowed due to this ‘event’, but it will inevitably rise, or there will be world stagnation, and that will collapse the world economy the harder way.
Hard way, or harder way?
You pick, its anyones guess now.
Guy may be in error about the timing, and I think he defers giving any predictions ‘now’, he has seen the problems with loss of credibility there. However, that does not invalidate the thesis of his, and others like Matt Savinar, that world crude oil decline will lead to collapse in these decades we tread now.
Proof will emerge as it unfolds.
How soon?
You can probably get good odds at your local ‘sportsbet’ outlet, you can bet on just about every aspect of public life now, so go for it.
Bet your life…I’m betting mine, and by extension my kids too.
“Come in spinner”
November 19th, 2012 at 8:07 am
Update on Fukushima by Arnie Gundersen – 26 minute podcast
http://www.fairewinds.org/content/unit-3-fuel-pool-repairs-support-detonation-and-more-contamination-found-fish-and-tokyo-subu
November 19th, 2012 at 8:20 am
Nervous-System Damage From the Sky
November 19th, 2012 at 8:44 am
Demand has slowed due to this ‘event’, but it will inevitably rise, or there will be world stagnation, and that will collapse the world economy the harder way.
If demand slows that way, then supply increases and price drops, if you believe supply and price are predicated upon demand. I don’t believe price is determined that way any longer, but if you do, and Guy does, then if you believe the economy is being purposely collapsed, then supply and price will not manifest as Guy predicted, and indeed it hasn’t manifested that way.
November 19th, 2012 at 9:08 am
I love this blog and come here very frequently, just as a way of staying in touch with my new reality. Like Daniel and depressive lucidity, I’m still struggling to come to terms with the idea of NTE.
We need to come up with new words, though. As someone who has struggled with clinical depression, I know there is a difference between the despair I feel now and being clinically depressed.
My mother attempted suicide more than once, and my sister, after many tries, was finally successful in 1995. Depression, the real thing that can make going to the mailbox a long struggle, is different than the anxiety, rage, despair and cynicism that I can feel today.
As dairymandave said, that first year is a bitch, but time does help.
Life is so funny. My brother, who is convinced that technology will save us from climate change, is shitscared of the current middle east conflict. Isn’t it amazing that we prefer to use up our anxious energy worrying about something we have absolutely no control over than worrying about something we have some daily control over – at least in terms of how we live our lives? While I, the doomer, am fairly sanguine about what happens over there and am way more worried about the XL and tar sands and fracking.
I don’t know if there is any meaning in any of this, but maybe it beats reading ivy mike.
November 19th, 2012 at 9:22 am
short intrusion in the boy’s club:
ulvfugl said:
O2 Dropping Faster than CO2 Rising
the closest manifestation of NTE in my life are the 3 big maple trees rapidly dying in the windows of my 3rd floor apartment. This process has been really “visible” around my house since 2008. I think O2 cannot but very swiftly go down with the loss of ALL trees presently dying everywhere (see gail’s last post from Saturday: http://witsendnj.blogspot.ca/)
I would like to have access to the report cited by ulvfugl. Is there a way without paying? do you have it?
besides the trees, here, in my life, the sky is permanently veiled with air traffic condensation clouds, the sunlight is thus permanently diffracted, extremely bright and blinding (as in all the pictures, movies and commercials, over the world, since 2009), the birds, squirrels, bats, insects, racoons, etc. are all gone (where?) despite the abundance of trees and food, there are very few stars (if any), the air is always heavy with gazoline and dust, the temperature is stangely different from normal, there is a heaviness in all things, my heart is always hurting, i make like everything is ok in front of my sons and friends because what else?, i am sinking, and more.
why don’t you leave? is everyone telling me. why don’t you go somewhere else if you are not happy here? stop complaining and do something about it, for doom’s sake!
ya, sure…
i live where i was born and where i will most probably die. i say mobility of meat (like me) is part of the problem (long story). my maple trees cannot move to try escape their dreadful fate. hemoglobin vs clorophyll.
the trees are beautiful until their end and through their decay…
November 19th, 2012 at 9:49 am
Consider this, Guy, regarding the ongoing difficulty this blog is having with those your other posters accuse of trying to undermine your message:
Humans who are not intrinsically motivated to behave well will behave well only when extrinsically motivated and often not even then. There was a time in history when human communities were truly interdependent; survival (getting basic needs met) of individuals/family lines depended on inclusion in the group. Individuals internalized group norms (the groups’ version of behaving well) because they had to. The punishment for poor behavior was shunning and in worst cases, banishment. Shunning was used as a behavior modification technique, offering an opportunity for the individual to return to community normative behavior. Banishment was understood to represent an irredeemable situation, the individual, for whatever underlying reason, was incorrigibly bad. Individuals who do not behave well when posting to this site can be presumed to have no intrinsic motivation to behave well. Are those individuals bad people, whatever the underlying reason? It’s difficult to know the one end of it but the evidence points to the obvious conclusion that they are not intrinsically good. Since a lack of interdependence in the pseudo-community of this blog ensures the ineffectiveness of extrinsic pressures on individuals to conform to politeness norms, and personal shunning (not reading the bad posters’ “contributions”) doesn’t shut anyone up, perhaps banishment is the only appropriate response.
November 19th, 2012 at 10:16 am
1) to Gene and in relation to other posts on this thread: shunning is widely and very often used by the Amish patriarchs who control e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g (with the objective of impeaching any young people from straying ever so lightly from their absolute power and to maintain them in ignorance). just sayin.
2) moderate, control, shun, ban are all actions that take a lot of energy, time and work (from scarce resources). and anybody can come back on a site in no time with a new address, a new name, and his old shit.
than what? re-moderate, re-control, re-shun, re-ban? this is the reality of Internet. you almost never know who you are in contact with. just know what people «say» they are.
did I just send 2 messages on the same day?
sorry, back to gloom.
November 19th, 2012 at 10:31 am
@everyone-Thank you for the kind words. I swear I was not whining! I have been of the belief that since I have so much experience with depression, that I could somehow keep my guard up, keep an eye on things, and prevent the downward spiral. It’s worrisome that the mind can have a mind of it’s own!
Life with small children necessarily keeps me living in the moment, otherwise the despair would get me. I almost lost it last night when I saw a picture of a mother gorilla with her 4 day old newborn at the Tel Aviv Zoo. Can they hear the bombing? What must they think? I would say it is an apt metaphor for what we have done to this planet, but I can find no metaphor there, only the horror of truth.
I wanted to briefly comment about the debate(?) that has been going on in the comments re: children, birth control, sterilization. I have missed most of the discussion, but I want to say that if I had been aware of NTE, I would not have had children. I left a long fruitless marriage & started my life over in pursuit of an MFA, totally accepting a childless future. How wrong I was. Being in my late 30′s, having lost 2 pregnancies, and discovering a genetic blood clotting disorder, one baby was a gift, two was a surprise, and three was omg wtf! I cannot take hormonal birth control, and my first priority after our big move w/2 children was to find a dr. and get an IUD. Was surprised the morning after the move w/ a positive pregnancy test. I am thankful for the children, don’t get me wrong, but I had to inject blood thinners through 3 pregnancies, suffer severe migraines, and underwent 3 c-sections, the 1st which resulted in hematomas under the incision and 2 1/2 months of open-wound healing. The 3rd which resulted in easy access to a TUBAL LIGATION. I am so thankful for the children, but I cannot tell you how thankful and relieved I am to be sterile. I cannot imagine the horror of having to go through any of the high-risk pregnancy/birth stuff without access to modern medicine. This is just to look at the issue from a practical angle and in no way addresses philosophical/ethical dilemmas of having babies in the face of NTE.
So, my reality is raising small children with an uncertain future. In a way it doesn’t change many things, the uncertain future, that is. I have been through a lot of tragedy and abuse in my own life, so I approach it as if the future is not guaranteed anyway. And then there is the actual act of living with kids-it is all consuming with regards to time and energy. I can’t seem to get the kitchen counter organized, much less prepare for certain doom.
So, here we are. My kids know the trees are sick, my son knows his food allergies can kill him, and they will all likely experience hunger some day, just as I did when I was a child. But life is full of hugs, kisses, tears, and requests for a tv in the bathroom, among other things…
November 19th, 2012 at 10:36 am
May I offer this for your Monday morning reading enjoyment (or because I’m vicious and don’t want to be the only one to suffer this morning). I recommend that you read the whole thing, but here’s the last paragraph:
Chris Hedges–”The Elites Will Make Gazans of Us All”
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/elites_will_make_gazans_of_us_all_20121119//
“As the U.S. empire implodes, the harsher forms of violence employed on the outer reaches of empire are steadily migrating back to the homeland. At the same time, the internal systems of democratic governance have calcified. Centralized authority has devolved into the hands of an executive branch that slavishly serves global corporate interests. The press and the government’s judiciary and legislative branches have become toothless and decorative. The specter of terrorism, as in Israel, is used by the state to divert gargantuan expenditures to homeland security, the military and internal surveillance. Privacy is abolished. Dissent is treason. The military with its mantra of blind obedience and force characterizes the dark ethic of the wider culture. Beauty and truth are abolished. Culture is degraded into kitsch. The emotional and intellectual life of the citizenry is ravaged by spectacle, the tawdry and salacious, as well as by handfuls of painkillers and narcotics. Blind ambition, a lust for power and a grotesque personal vanity—exemplified by David Petraeus and his former mistress—are the engines of advancement. The concept of the common good is no longer part of the lexicon of power. This, as the novelist J.M. Coetzee writes, is “the black flower of civilization.” It is Rome under Diocletian. It is us. Empires, in the end, decay into despotic, murderous and corrupt regimes that finally consume themselves. And we, like Israel, are now coughing up blood.”
Michael Irving
November 19th, 2012 at 11:34 am
BadlandsAK, thanks for sharing your story. I am glad you survived the pregnancies. I had someone tell me once that pregnancy wasn’t dangerous because it was natural. You can guess the gender
I have seen some of the pictures of the children coming out of Gaza and it tears at me – and then Michael posts Chris Hedges saying the elites will make Gazans of us all. I am afraid that might be true, but I also think that they will have little time to do it.
The future is always uncertain no matter how much stability we surround ourselves with. Y
I had to chuckle when you wrote “It’s worrisome that the mind can have a mind of it’s own!” Yes it is worrisome. I have often wondered who it is we are talking to when we talk to ourselves. Is it the mind of its own, or are there more than two minds in there????
And you wrote “I can’t seem to get the kitchen counter organized, much less prepare for certain doom.” Now that shows you have an important ability. Orlov says that humor is something we need to face what is coming and you obviously have that preparation down pat.
November 19th, 2012 at 11:48 am
Chris Hedges always tells the truth with such power. wow. It seems like many people want this blog to continue. In my experience, all the blogs that “tell it like it is” have suffered similar infestations. Orlov, Automatic Earth, Agonist, Ian Welsh, etc. have all tried different solutions, with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately, it requires massive vigilance and a cooperative web host. Is it really important to make people aware of what their future is? Is it even possible to do this? What good would it do if we managed to convince everyone on earth that NTE is reality? Even if it isn’t reality, would it be good to convince everyone that it is? Are some people just trying to keep the status quo until they, personally, are gone?
The fact that there are people who want to destroy this blog or drive folks away from it tells me that somewhere people don’t want this message out. Why? Don’t they want the plebs to all run around in panic and kill themselves and destroy civilization? You’d think that TPTB would want total collapse asap so that there might be a chance for their descendants to build their totalitarian paradise on a habitable planet. It’s going to happen anyway, so why try to put it off? Then again, why try to rush it, either? I guess I don’t get it. There are so many possible scenarios, plots within plots, reverse psychology, missing motivations, etc. I do like the idea that I can come here and ask these questions and have people discuss these things seriously. I also like the idea that I can come here and read Guy’s posts and all the links to studies, reports, articles, videos, that I don’t have time to find myself.
November 19th, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Michele/montreal : I would like to have access to the report cited by ulvfugl. Is there a way without paying? do you have it?
No, I don’t have it, and I don’t do Paypal. I googled a bit to see if I could find a copy, but no luck.
Seems reasonable to conclude that when the trees go, and the phytoplankton goes, so does the oxygen…
This from 2008
In the view of Professor Ervin Laszlo, the drop in atmospheric oxygen has potentially serious consequences. A UN advisor who has been a professor of philosophy and systems sciences, Laszlo writes:
Evidence from prehistoric times indicates that the oxygen content of pristine nature was above the 21% of total volume that it is today. It has decreased in recent times due mainly to the burning of coal in the middle of the last century. Currently the oxygen content of the Earth’s atmosphere dips to 19% over impacted areas, and it is down to 12 to 17% over the major cities. At these levels it is difficult for people to get sufficient oxygen to maintain bodily health: it takes a proper intake of oxygen to keep body cells and organs, and the entire immune system, functioning at full efficiency. At the levels we have reached today cancers and other degenerative diseases are likely to develop. And at 6 to 7% life can no longer be sustained.
Scaremongering? I don’t think so. A reason for doomsaying? Not yet. What is needed is an authoritative evidence-based investigation to ascertain current oxygen levels and what consequences, if any, there are for the long-term wellbeing of our species – and, indeed, of all species.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/13/carbonemissions.climatechange
November 19th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Two large German companies and two European governments withdraw support from the large solar project in North Africa.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20357167
At least the global industrial/monetary collapse has proceeded far enough to cut into this idiotic last ditch effort to use some kind of technological fix. It hasn’t collapse far enough, however.
Go lemmings, go!
November 19th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
@ Wildwoman
I have noticed the same thing many times, people have their pet obsessions, which they hyper fixate on, but live in abject denial of events that are staring them in the face. The whole Alex Jones contingency is a classic example. I mean nothing throws you for a loop, more than having an otherwise sane conversation with someone about the Federal Reserve and suddenly they start going off about Lizard People. They are so obsessed with the U.N. somehow instigating a one world government, that climate change must be a hoax, therefore, the IPCC must be a clandestine organization designed to implement population control. It’s shocking how many people believe this. You think to yourself, “how is that possible…..”, then you remember that in America, more Americans literally believe Obama is a Muslim, than actually believe in evolution. Oh god…save us from your followers.
November 19th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
In response to BC Nurse Prof’s comment at 11:48 AM on November 19th, the TPTB principals are better informed about the dangers of climate change than any blog commentators are. Climate change has been on the public agenda of most of the meetings of high government officials and capitalists for some time. If they have seen evidence convincing them that this will result in human extinction in a few decades, they probably think that if this gets out to the general public the news will remove most of the psychological restraints on anti-social activities (vandalism, rapes, theft, gang violence, etc.) and so would want to understandably keep the information under wraps for as long as possible.
If there is a danger of near-term extinction but no certainty, and it could be headed off if sufficient measures were taken, the actions and movitivations of TPTB become more puzzling.
November 19th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
An anonymous source brought this site to my attention and I had one of my administrative assistants look into it and report her findings. I have to say that what she reported is rather disturbing, and I don’t believe I have seen or heard of anything like it on the net. I think it is best described as a suicide cult. It appears many if not all the individuals involved in this quasi community are unconscious and not aware of what they’re involved in. It’s dangerous and unhealthy, and I would like to help. In fact, I think this would make an excellent show. I would appreciate it if some of you would reach out to me via my website so we can get the ball rolling on a unique and entertaining episode of Dr. Phil. We can kill two birds with one stone. I get an intriguing show for my viewers, and you get to think and behave more clearly and understand the trap you are laying for yourselves.
In Your Favor,
Dr. Phil
November 19th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Morroco Bama wrote:
I’m confused about what is meant, precisely, by “this culture.” Is it referring to just “American” culture? To Western culture? Stormcrow’s song could easily apply to Russian culture, or Japanese culture, or Chinese culture. So, what does “this culture” mean?
In the song I wrote “a culture” not “this culture” so I would apply it to any culture,past or present,that damaged the land,ruined the oceans,poisoned the air and caused species to go extinct in the the quest to expand.
The line in the song that I am the least in agreement with (which means I don’t completely agree with myself) is “there once was a culture that showed no remorse” because I don’t believe that remorse for what we have done would be enough of a motivator even if everyone suddenly felt it.
I found it interesting that I sang the song for a friend of mine who
is aware of our unfolding predicament and she was singing along and liked it but when we were done she asked “What was the lie that was swallowed by the culture?”
November 19th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
thestormcrow – I loved the song, I sang it to my husband even. (I love the fly version as well) It doesn’t have to make perfect sense in every line to be excellent. I wonder if I might share it around to friends and on a few other blogs I post on?
Thanks – we need to look honestly at what we have done. I suspect if the first time we spoiled a stream, or denuded a hillside we had been struck by immense remorse as a culture we would not be in the fix we are in.
November 19th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Relevant to the current post:
Epic Disappointment
By James Howard Kunstler
November 19th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Hahahahaha, ‘In Your Favor’ ???
Yet another troll…
Dear Dr Phil,
Speaking only for myself, I suggest you demote that ‘administrative assistant’ to a task more suited to their mental calibre, and take on someone a little bit smarter, because, even a superficial investigation of this blog reveals to anyone with a modicum of education that there is no ‘cult’ and there is no ‘suicide cult’ anywhere here to be found.
‘Unconscious’ ? as in ‘comatose’ ? what a strange sort of doctor you must be, to think that people who can write comments and argue, are ‘unconscious’.
‘Dangerous and unhealthy’ ? And YOU want to help ? Hahahahahaha….. and you want to do this via your ‘Show’ ? Well, how very kind, generous and thoughtful of you.
Speaking only for myself, of course, Dr Phil, why wouldn’t anyone feel tempted to kill themselves when there are creeps like you in the world who exploit people via junk tv shows ?
Again speaking only for myself, Dr Phil. Go fuck yourself.
In you favor
ulvfugl
PS Erm, I wonder who that ‘anonymous source’ might have been ? Possibly someone with a grudge ?
November 19th, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Hey, Dr. Phil has hit the nail on the head! The human race is a suicide cult! Now it all becomes clear!
November 19th, 2012 at 2:36 pm
BC Nurse
I have been trying to figure out what the elites are up to in light of the now obvious trends towards NTE. It seems implausible that they too are as deluded as the plebs. After all, they have been concerned with overpopulation since the 60s and the Pentegon is well aware of the dangers resulting from climate change. Moreover, as some whistle blower scientists have claimed, there is a conspiracy of silence to suppress the truth about climate change. If they are trying to suppress it, then they must be aware of it.
At the moment, I’m starting to think that a WWIII scenario with an eventual limited nuclear exchange might be in the works. It would reverse global warming (at least for a few decades), collapse much of industrial civilization (so we would burn a lot less carbon fuel), significantly depopulate parts of the third world which are no longer relevant to market forces, and pave the way for the establishment of an Orwellian world system. This might also explain why the Russians and Chinese have been so busy building enormous subterranean facilities.
I know this sounds terribly paranoid and assumes that some grand cabal is pulling the strings behind the matrix. Perhaps no one is in charge and it’s all randmom mayhem. But then again, perhaps these days paranoia is the best way to metanoia.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Depressive Lucidity, Taylor Caldwell suggested just such a cabal in Captains and Kings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captains_and_the_Kings
Doesn’t matter anymore – Nature is a bat and before Pachamama ALL will bow down including the elites
(Unless they have booked passage off planet to Nibiru when it passes by on Dec. 21)
November 19th, 2012 at 3:14 pm
I have no idea whether the “Dr. Phil” posting is a joke (though clicking on his name gives a clue), but there is a valid point there. It could be that that healthy, well adjusted people suppress or rationalize away even strong evidence that the human race is in danger of extinction, because if you can’t do that the psychological and social consequences are too dire.
This could explain the reaction in many quarters to more mainstream views of global warming. I have a friend who is sinking alot of time and effort into a project that is supposed to conclusively prove that the data behind concerns about climate change is incorrect (because of improper adjustments to the raw data). Now in the past, these sorts of direct challenges to scientists were assumed to be prompted by scientific findings that contradicted religious teachings. With global warming, its assumed that Americans are reacting to anything that challenges car culture.
However, if the game is really over the possibility of human extinction, of course people won’t want to deal with it! The intelligent misfits on this blog are having trouble handling the concept, I don’t know what hope there is for the socially well adjusted types.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:22 pm
From the Dr Phil Wiki page :
“(Phil) McGraw’s advice and methods have drawn criticism from some fellow psychotherapists as well as from some laymen. McGraw’s critics regard advice given by him to be at best simplistic, and at worst, ineffective.”
November 19th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
CIA climate-change unit closes its doors
http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/268753-cia-climate-office-closes-its-doors
November 19th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Depressive Lucidity, one scenario I have toyed with mentally is that TPTB have been briefed on some version of Guy’s “We’re Done” essay and accepted the claims. There is no plot to cause human extinction or even some variant of the “die-off”, but there is an acceptance that its inevitable, with the consequence of not considering the long term consequences, at least on the institutions they lead, of their decisions. And this may include the halting of the efforts towards international cooperation to combat climate change!
From the evidence presented, I think the extreme consequence of climate change are an unfortunate but avoidable possibility, but the elites don’t seem to be behaving as if they take the same view.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Kathy C,
Please feel free to share the song with others.I’d be happy to know there are people out there singing it!
November 19th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
The trolls just keep coming. Ed’s another one. Keep your stinking trap shut, Ed. No one wants to the putrefaction that falls so loosely from your lips. Go fuck yourself while you’re at it. You’ve seen what I’ve done to other trolls who have haunted this blog. I’ll do the same to you if you try to cross swords with me. Get yourself together and don’t give me any shit. Are we clear?
November 19th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Hahahaha, so, the dirty tricks start !
That comment re Ed, was NOT from ME !
My apologies, Ed. Someone has usurped my identity.
November 19th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
I think that the various suggestions, made over recent threads, that there was a deliberate plot to disrupt this blog appear to be confirmed.
Why else would someone steal my identity and use it to stir up further trouble ?
November 19th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
Once near term extinction became an ever encroaching and unavoidable reality, everything, suddenly started to become irrelevant.
Yes it is worrisome. I have often wondered who it is we are talking to when we talk to ourselves. Is it the mind of its own, or are there more than two minds in there????
In Incognito, Eagleman contends that most of the operations of the brain are inaccessible to awareness, such that the conscious mind “is like a stowaway on a transatlantic steam ship, taking credit for the journey without acknowledging the massive engineering underfoot.”
“you are a republic of voices tonight. Unfortunately that republic is Italy” – Jay McInerney
“our mental life is a noisy parliament of competing factions” – Steven Pinker
“the mind could be considered as a parliament, a debating chamber. Different factions contended, short- and long-term interests were entrenched in mutual loathing” – Ian McEwan
“reason was made a constitutional monarch, charged with [...] appointing ruling parties to office from the parliament of emotions” – Philip Rieff
When the two cerebral hemispheres are separated surgically, two personalities become evident. The speech center is on the right side, so the left cannot talk, but can and does respond to non-verbal communication without the awareness of its fellow when the communication is hidden from the right side. And even subregions and sub-subregions function on their own. Dr. Oliver Sacks the neurologist and neuroscientist has the specific inability to recognise faces – a function that is localised to a rather small part of the cortex.
We ain’t who “we” think we are!
November 19th, 2012 at 5:15 pm
Decision Making
November 19th, 2012 at 5:37 pm
It could be that that healthy, well adjusted people suppress or rationalize away even strong evidence that the human race is in danger of extinction, because if you can’t do that the psychological and social consequences are too dire.
That depends on what one considers “healthy” and “well adjusted”. Some have swept the equivalent of landfills under their mental rug. A rare few have shaken out the rug.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
“Why else would someone steal my identity and use it to stir up further trouble ?” ulvfugl
Because we are dealing with spoiled infantile brats; but you know that.
When I first read the comment attributed to you, ulvfugl, it surprised me, but the boasting about what you’d done to other trolls in this space was a dead giveaway. You’ve never claimed anything like that.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
One of the criticisms of American psychology by some European analysts is that it is oriented to making the individual “well adjusted” and “functional” in society.
But what does it mean to be a well adjusted camp guard at Auschwitz?
It seems to me that the decision to imbibe the happy Dr. Phil pill in North America is to voluntarily drown in the spiritual poison of the Capitalist matrix. Terms like “happy” and “well adjusted” are simply psycho-chemical commodities that are sold in the market place of a system that is predicated on the destruction of life and the induced indifference to that destruction.
So, by all means, be maladjusted. Depression and rage at Treblinka were healthy responses to that reality.
November 19th, 2012 at 6:51 pm
Here is an excerpt from a review of a little book that I recently read called “Dead Man Working.” I think some of the folks here might appreciate its thesis.
“Carl Cederstrom and Peter Fleming’s Dead Man Working (Zer0) is an interesting account of living and working in a dead world. It diagnoses several affective elements of the managerial co-option of life. Cederstrom and Fleming argue that life in a society dominated by capitalist realism becomes one in which the divide between life and work is completely obliterated where all that remains is life-work and the wait for the approaching tsunami, for the end of capital (which may very well co-arrive with the end of civilization). Following the flood of capitalist control what remains is the affectively gray wait for the end.”
http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Man-Working-Carl-Cederstrom/dp/1780991568
November 19th, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Thank you, Judy, much appreciated.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:06 pm
ulvfugl, you are welcome.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:48 pm
Methinks this kind of DIY bio-engineering is a massive disaster in the making…
It’s beyond my comprehension that otherwise intelligent people, like John Robb and Ran Prieur, are enthusiastic. I’m not certain, but I think the justification is to wrench control away from Big Pharma, but at least Big Pharma are still slightly accountable, whereas this kind of ‘let’s see what happens’ tinkering fills me with horror at what the results could be…
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/541627-Hello-and-an-MDPV-Question?p=9179324&viewfull=1#post9179324
November 19th, 2012 at 9:23 pm
‘China set for ‘revolution’ in nuclear power’
http://www.smh.com.au/business/china-set-for-revolution-in-nuclear-power-20121119-29m4t.html
A quote:
”
CHINA is on track to become the world’s largest generator of nuclear power between now and some time in the 2020s, a senior Rio Tinto executive says.
Rio Tinto Energy’s general manager of markets and industry analysis, Stephen Wilson, said China was now about the eighth or ninth largest nuclear energy producer.
By the end of the decade, China was expected to leap to the number two position, he said, before overtaking the US in the 2020s, producing 100 gigawatts of power.
”Their vision is to produce 400 gigawatts of nuclear power by 2050. That’s been publicly stated by Chinese officials,” Mr Wilson told the Australian Institute of Energy national conference in Sydney yesterday. ”That’s more than the whole world has got today.”
Advertisement The growth in nuclear energy in China would come from new third generation power plants that produced electricity more cheaply than coal and gas plants in coastal China.
”What we are looking at in China now is a situation where it is the very early stages of a very significant nuclear build program,” Mr Wilson said. ”This is a quiet revolution.”
Mr Wilson noted Japan’s reduced nuclear energy production after the Fukushima nuclear disaster, as well as moves from countries such as Germany and Switzerland to cut back on nuclear energy production.
But despite the build-up in nuclear power, Mr Wilson said China, as well as India, would continue to rely heavily on coal for the bulk of its electricity needs and to keep up with growing demand.
Mr Wilson said meeting the rising energy demand of billions of people would require improvements in energy efficiency and new resources. ”We hope there will be significant improvements, significant contributions from energy efficiency, but there will need to be growth in energy supply.””
And the reactors they are describing are the liquid Sulphur coolant kind, that explode when the sulphur hits the air if there is a leak.
All the present generation of reactors have cross contamination of coolant water and internal water, and to think it will be any safer is simply childish.
Deep fried human anyone??
Also it is very interesting to hear that low Oxygen leads to higher cancer rates, on top of rising background radiation too.
!!!
November 19th, 2012 at 10:56 pm
someone here please respond to the Dr.Phil comment. I would love to see how such an episode would play out, especially on msm! ulvfugle, I promote you as his guest…..give ‘im a piece of your mind! lol
November 19th, 2012 at 11:29 pm
Ryan
It may be interesting I agree, however, you can bet with what he already has put up, he will frame the contents of NBL as a crank ideology doomers.
But it may be a way to get the message out – who knows?
But it would not work without Guy there, and that would be good to see him go head to head with Dr Phil.
Then he might get a play on Oprah, or has she retired?
My guess is it is bait, and TPTB are trying to sucker NBL into emerging into the mainstream under heavy framing and nutjob criticism, rather than the realistic public forums like being interviewed by a real reporter in more than a 1 minute grab.
I sense this is the moment for the NTE paypoad to be delivered to the many folk who are unaware of the terminator ahead.
Hard work from Guy is paying off, but you can bet TPTB will throw some significant flack Guy’s way, and I for one will stand to be counted if need be.
Count me in ulvfugl.
!!!
November 20th, 2012 at 12:56 am
someone here please respond to the Dr.Phil comment. I would love to see how such an episode would play out, especially on msm!
How about this? Notwithstanding the possibility of margaritas ante porcos…..
Panchadasi
By Sri Vidyaranya Swami
Translated by Swami Swahananda
November 20th, 2012 at 1:41 am
NBL is a different place with fewer wafts and less flinging (albeit well-referenced).
November 20th, 2012 at 3:11 am
It is clear (and should be clear when you post comments) that anyone can post on any name they want and show as website any website they want. The e-mail address cannot be faked unless you happen to know the other’s e-mail, but since it is not published when the comment is published we readers have no way of knowing what e-address is used. Many people have multiple e-mails and can create free e-mails easily.
Clearly someone hijacked ulvfugl and probably used Dr. Phil’s website unbeknownst to him -not hard to guess who. No doubt this will continue for a while.
November 20th, 2012 at 3:22 am
It was mentioned that it’s possible for the brain to not recognize faces. To the rest of us that does not seem possible. I forget names easily but never a face. Likewise, there are some very intelligent people who can look at a controlled demolition and not see it. Kunstler and Greer are two that come to mind. They don’t see it and never will but I still read their stuff. They think in words, not pictures. Here on the farm I must be careful not to hire anyone that thinks in words. They break everything and in general get along poorly. They just don’t “get” how things work and they never will.
Regarding Dr. Phil, I don’t watch TV so I don’t know the man much, but if he were presented with the facts, data, and the physics of global warming (it’s all physics, not politics, or words) would he be even able to understand it? I have wondered sometimes (when I pinch myself) if we just believe this NTE because all the rest believe it. Do we go along just to be accepted? Is it just a meme? Would a person like Phil see it this way, as a cult, and not see the data and how it works? How would he respond to the data. I have seen his show and he is good at what he does. It would take a powerful person to stand up to him. The audience would be on his side all the way. They are likely the type that think in words and feelings too. If they could see what TV is all about, they wouldn’t be there. By words I mean abstractions, not the real thing.
My grandfather was school superintendent of a large school system but couldn’t fill a fountain pen. I assume that everyone knows what a fountain pen is. He retired and helped out on the home farm. He was nearly worthless on the farm but he could stop a fight. Guess that made him worth something. Maybe I should invite Dr. Phil to work on my farm for a week to see if he can see how things work. We’ll take videos. It usually takes about 5 minutes to know the answer. Left or right?
David
Truth is what works.
November 20th, 2012 at 3:58 am
Hey, lookie here (right on cue, as we expected but others continue to doubt):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2235440/Earth-moving-4-0-C-temperature-rise-climate-scientists-warn.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
Of course this and other “realizations” will come, it now being far too late to DO anything about them. We’ll just be ticking off these mileposts to our doom as we continue along.
November 20th, 2012 at 4:39 am
The Pilot Varsity fountain pen is marketed as a disposable fountain pen, but although the carton also carries the word “Refillable”, no instructions are provided on how to refill it.
How to refill your Pilot Varsity
November 20th, 2012 at 5:26 am
An objective way to gauge the validity of the Doom & Gloom forecasts:
Charting Mankind’s Arctic Methane Emission Exponential Expressway to Total Extinction in the Next 50 Years
“As a consequence, the enhanced global warming will melt the global ice sheets at a fast increasing rate causing the sea level to begin rising at 15.182 cm/yr in the first few years after 2015 giving an accurate way of gauging the worldwide continental ice loss.”
Declining food supply although more serious, will not equally affect everyone.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:57 am
by Richard Heinberg
http://carolynbaker.net/2012/11/15/you-cant-say-that-by-richard-heinberg/
Snippet below from the conclusion
“So the real trade-off, the real choice we face, is not between climate protection on one hand and economic growth on the other. It’s between planned economic contraction (with government managing the post-carbon transition through infrastructure investment and useful make-work programs) as a possible but unlikely strategy, and unplanned, unmanaged economic and environmental collapse as our default scenario.
Mainstream environmental organizations don’t want to mention any of this because they don’t want to be pilloried as “anti-growth” or “socialist” by right-wing politicians and powerful free-market think tanks. The president won’t touch it with a forty-foot pole, for the same reasons.
Some of us are under no such constraint.<b< We can tell it like it is—and we might as well do so. What do we have to lose, other than illusions?“
November 20th, 2012 at 6:02 am
Dave, there are even worse brain syndromes that not recognizing faces. Some people from brain injury think that an arm or leg does not belong to them and one doctor made a living for a while cutting off the arm of leg at the request of those people until he was made to give that up. Can you imagine seeing your arm and thinking it belongs to someone else so strongly that you wanted it cut off? Brain’s a strange piece of equipment that can hold strange beliefs such as Cotard’s syndrome. Clearly our brain is quite capable of creating false beliefs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion
“The Cotard delusion, Cotard’s syndrome, or Walking Corpse Syndrome[1] is a rare mental disorder in which people hold a delusional belief that they are dead (either figuratively or literally), do not exist, are putrefying, or have lost their blood or internal organs. In rare instances, it can include delusions of immortality.[2]”
Or on the other hand these are the ones with true beliefs and those of us who believe we exist are the ones with false beliefs
November 20th, 2012 at 6:33 am
i am a long time reader and first time poster here and i must say that i am disgusted by the intolerance shown to those who disagree even if that disagreement is subtle. it’s turned me off and i think there is some justification in calling what i’ve witnessed cultish behavior. it’s good for people’s views to be challenged and for people to disagree and it seems the message now is that no amount of disagreement will be tolerated. i’m not sure i want to visit this blog and read the comments of a small group of people who have closed their minds to the world and the larger reality and that group now includes guy. it’s no way to be as we approach what could be the end of life as we know it. in fact it should be the opposite. we should be more open and embracing rather than hostile and resistant. as far as i’m concerned the recent turn of events at this blog have shown me a side of it i didn’t know existed. i don’t like it and i don’t want to be associated with it. i posted because i wanted others who are reading and not posting who feel the same as i do to know they are not alone in their thoughts and feelings and that those who do post in support of shutting people down do not speak for all of us. enjoy your echo chamber.
November 20th, 2012 at 6:33 am
Gene,
+1
November 20th, 2012 at 7:04 am
Maggie, that is simply not true. The fact is that people don’t simply disagree, they repeatedly accuse others of being dishonest, of lying, of deliberately driving people to suicide, etc. That is self-righteousness, not merely disagreement or challenge.
You are not allowed to use ad hominem arguments against people, that is being unreasonable. If you disagree, say calmly, I disagree with you because of facts a), b), c), etc…
Freedom of speech does not entail freedom of consequences.
If I go into a theater and shout “FIRE!”, and if as a result people trample each other to death, I can be arrested because I was deliberately being destructive.
See how it works?
November 20th, 2012 at 7:22 am
maggie has the same IP address as Morocco Bama
November 20th, 2012 at 7:33 am
“… small group of people who have closed their minds to the world and the larger reality and that group now includes guy.it’s no way to be as we approach what could be the end of life as we know it…”
To me, Maggie, in the first sentence the opposite is true.
A worlds population not realising reality at any level, not even that level that would allow their kids to live on. And would ask for huge “sacrifices” of lifestyle and a plan, a global plan.
The second sentence I agree, I’d love to see a solution for the “disagreeing” voices. Although I believe the main part to this trouble was due to flooding and wording.
Peace.
November 20th, 2012 at 7:34 am
I don’t care about the IP address, but this is really beginning to bother me.
Maybe I keep explaining it wrong.
Help me out here, Guy, how exactly do I explain the difference between “rational critique” and “irrational criticism?” How do I explain the importance of “intellectual civility” as a trait, namely the ability to respect others as thinkers even if you think they’re wrong, without making it sound like I want to stifle people’s opinions?
November 20th, 2012 at 7:46 am
Good questions, Librarian. Because of my inability to identify that shifting, ambiguous boundary, this website was open to all comments for a very long time. Now, however, in the name of civility, I am attempting to close the conversation to a couple of recent, frequent commentators. It’s an arms race as they shift identities and IP addresses and I try to monitor their changes to minimize the hateful spew.
November 20th, 2012 at 7:57 am
Maggie is the only poster who doesn’t respect the English language well enough to use capital letters. Reminds me of lack of respect for other things like Nature. Capital letters work for the reader’s sake. Respect for other’s opinions is also important, in my opinion. I think it shows self respect.
November 20th, 2012 at 8:03 am
Testing to see if I can post under Yorchichan with a different email address.
November 20th, 2012 at 8:04 am
Back when, I was informed that “The View” was discussing 9/11. So I dropped my work and watched. What a joke it was. If indeed that Dr. Phil is real, he will frame the program just the way he wants to. Waste of time. Who wants to feel used?
November 20th, 2012 at 8:06 am
That was easy. I’d always assumed that a comment would be rejected if the name and email address didn’t match.
That is bad web site design. Hope you didn’t pay too much , Guy.
November 20th, 2012 at 8:56 am
Yorchichan : That is bad web site design. Hope you didn’t pay too much , Guy.
WordPress is free, although you may have to pay for hosting it. I use DreamHost. You can use them for 90 days free, to test the service, and it’s not that expensive thereafter.
There are a great many WordPress themes available ( different page layout styles ) and I think some of those require a payment to the designer.
That said, perhaps this is an older version of WordPress and an old style without all the security features ? Some have bugs, like on Burning Platform, which leaves the details of the last commenter there for anyone to see and/or use.
On my own WordPress blog, i left it open for anyone to comment, but the spam grew so bad after a month or so, that now any commenter has to register first, and thereafter must log in to post a comment.
Perhaps that could be done here. It’s not really inconvenient, and it makes filtering unwanted crap much easier. Genuine folk with something worth saying probably don’t mind logging in. I don’t mind manually deleting a handful of nuisance, but I was getting about 100 spam messages from a server in the Ukraine and another in China, every single day. Since I made registration a requirement, that’s all stopped.
Perhaps there is some trustworthy tech savvy person Guy could delegate to, to check over the site design and security ?
November 20th, 2012 at 8:59 am
As ulvfugl points out, I use WordPress, and it’s free. There are several steps from here, and I’m reluctant to take any of them: (1) require registration, (2) moderate every comment, (3) disallow comments, and (4) shut down.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:14 am
Guy,
Registration + login seems worth trying. Moderating every comment is too much work for you. Shutting down would be unfortunate (though understandable), particularly since it appears that your POV on catastrophic climate change is now beginning to get traction among a wider audience.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:17 am
Guy, 2, 3, and 4 seem far more difficult/extreme to me. As I’ve mentioned to you, I find valuable information in the comments, as well as the blog posts, and I would hate to lose that. Registration seems the least onerous choice.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:31 am
Registration seems the least irksome, IMO. I delegated editing rights to someone whom I trust, who has the technical capability to sort out problems. That’s an option I’d suggest, to share the burden, if Guy is away travelling or lecturing. It’s under ‘users > roles and capabilities’.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:43 am
present air traffic: 2.5 billion passengers/year. Suppose to double in the next 20 years, and revert to biofuels. Where is all that biomass suppose to come from? Humans are really crazy about flying. They love it to death.
November 20th, 2012 at 10:09 am
Dr. Phil doesn’t get around much if “he” thinks this site is one of the most disturbing things on the net. One doesn’t have to be crazy to believe in catastrophic climate change, one needs only look out the window, or even better, go for a walk outside, better still, try to grow something, or hunt for food. Easy to think everything is going along as usual from the comfort of an air conditioned studio. Hard to ignore when you step outside to 70 degree weather at the end of November in South Dakota. Well, we did have winter storm Brutus the weekend before last, but exceptional (!) drought still persists.
@Kathy C. haha, Yes, I have doom on the mind lately! We just watched “It’s the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!” at Halloween time, and my son came up to me the other day and asked, “What does Linus mean when he says ‘I’m doomed’?” Well, do you want the long answer, or the short answer? I told him it means ‘ill fated’, and that I would explain it better when he gets a little older. Kids know how to keep it real! You never know what they’re going to throw your way, and the days of critiquing artworks and discussing art theory seem pretty tame in comparison.
November 20th, 2012 at 10:21 am
michele/montreal,
The only type of passenger air travel that is carbon-neutral is travel by Zeppelin. The propeller engines can be run on pure biodiesel.
Passenger Zeppelin service will be returning, and sooner than you think.
November 20th, 2012 at 10:54 am
Depressive lucidity, thanks for your ideas on what the PTB are thinking. We don’t know for sure, but your guesses are good ones.
I see the battle for the blog has begun. Underhanded and sneaky attacks will continue, and it’s a drain on Guy’s time. We’ll all have to be careful responding to comments until we know who is speaking. We’ll all have to watch posts attributed to us and make sure we tell everyone when they are not. In short, we’ll all have to be vigilant to make this work, or we lose it.
True, the information is coming out quickly now, getting more mainstream, step by step, trying to keep up with observable changes that mount by the day.
Some faculty in a meeting yesterday put two and two together and realized that since my classes for next fall are assigned to “TBA” they asked me if I’m retiring. I had to tell them yes, even though I didn’t want so many people to know yet. They’ll make some kind of big deal out of this and I’ll be forced to tell them why I’m out of here. They won’t like to hear it, but I’ll tell them anyway.
November 20th, 2012 at 11:36 am
Coal power plants will lead to runaway climate change:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/20/coal-plants-world-resources-institute?intcmp=122
New report from the World Resources Institute published today says 1,200 coal-fired power plants are being planned, most in India and China. If they are built, it will add so much carbon to the atmosphere, that it will cause runaway climate change.
November 20th, 2012 at 11:48 am
More about anarchy:
http://cluborlov.blogspot.ca/2012/11/the-practice-of-anarchy.html#more
from Dimitry Orlov
November 20th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
From Nature :
Be persuasive. Be brave. Be arrested (if necessary).
We need oil producers to leave 80% of proven reserves untapped to achieve a stable climate. As a former oil analyst, I can easily calculate oil companies’ enthusiasm to leave 80% of their value in the ground — absolutely nil.
The damaging effects of climate change are accelerating. James Hansen of NASA has screamed warnings for 30 years. Although at first he was dismissed as a madman, almost all his early predictions, disturbingly, have proved conservative in relation to what has actually happened.
http://www.nature.com/news/be-persuasive-be-brave-be-arrested-if-necessary-1.11796
November 20th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
The term “belief” when referring to the possibility of NTE is misapplied, I think.
Based on the climate change models and the empirical observations that have proven to be more severe than the models predicted, as well as the feedback systems that are being triggered (e.g. the methane hydrates) which are not even factored into the models, I have INFERRED that NTE (which I take to mean the death of a significant portion of the human population by 2050 and extinction by 2100) is reasonably supported by the current science.
It’s not cultic behavior to engage in discourse with a small group of individuals who have drawn similar conclusions about the future of our species from the scientific data.
There are, or course, some people who are appalled by the world and cling to eschatological escapist fantasies (i.e., the world stinks and I hope it ends soon). I don’t see this kind of thing happening on this blog.
November 20th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
The comments have been pretty good here on this post, excepting the fake ulvfugl rant.
Seems to me it is improving, unlike the climate….
I could be mistaken though.
November 20th, 2012 at 2:42 pm
Was Dr. Phil a fake?
November 20th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Living Bridges
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jrmm7gjZGE
November 20th, 2012 at 3:30 pm
I thought the Dr. Phil post was a fake the moment I saw it. It made me laugh.
Guy, I think requiring registration is not such a bad option. And I appreciated your comment about the IP address. Judicious sharing of such information seems warranted.
Loved the song, thestormcrow.
BC Nurse Prof: I’ll be forced to tell them why I’m out of here. They won’t like to hear it, but I’ll tell them anyway.
When you do so, please picture a retinue of your supporters, including me, applauding you for your courage and forthrightness.
Sending love to all my kin here who think and feel and suffer.
November 20th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Ah BC Nurse, wise comments about comments. Congratulations on your coming retirement!
Depressive very lucid comments
November 20th, 2012 at 4:11 pm
OzMan, Guy has been doing a lot of behind-the-scenes work to keep the comments relatively clean. Some have slipped through, like the fake ulvfugl, Dr. Phil (that was so cheesy), and Maggie (equally as cheesy). It is a lot of work for Guy, and I, for one, would like to see something put into place which allows Guy to attend to more pressing matters while allowing his commenters to be able to share information and disagree respectfully. I’ve been reading/lurking for about two years now; I’ve seen many disagreements come up; and I’ve witnessed some fireworks. None of what I’ve witnessed over the last few months from a couple of the newcomers qualifies as respect for differing opinions.
Librarian said, “Maybe I keep explaining it wrong.”
I don’t think your explanation/delivery is the problem.
dairymandave, I’m pretty sure Dr. Phil would not be caught dead trolling this site in search of his next victim, but considering how cheesy HE is, I could be wrong. As for “maggie’s” use of all lower case, I normally would concur; however, there is a relatively frequent poster here, thevirginterry, who uses all lower case and common texting abbreviations. It used to drive me crazy (sorry, tvt), but now I pay more attention to his content rather than his delivery. “maggie” of course, can be dismissed as the troll HE is.
November 20th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Dr. McPherson may wish to try OpenID: it authenticates on the basis of any one of a large number of providers.
Did “Sean” have an IP address of a more recent troublemaker?
November 20th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Sean shares an IP address with Alpha Omega, Sith Master Sean, Sean the Jedi, and Darth Imperius, but not with anybody else who has commented here.
November 20th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Don’t know the WordPress version of NBL. If it falls within this range:
Requires: 2.8 or higher
Compatible up to: 2.8.5
- here is the OpenID plugin.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Here’s how to Get an OpenID® for one’s personal use.
But the page at the link also states:
If you use any of the following services, you already have your own OpenID. Below are instructions on how to sign in with each of the following providers on an OpenID enabled website. (When you see bold text, you should replace it with your own username or screenname on that service.)
It goes on to list a lot of services.
November 20th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Kathy C
Or on the other hand these are the ones with true beliefs and those of us who believe we exist are the ones with false beliefs.
One can doubt everything, but one cannot doubt the doubter. That is the only thing in the entire Cosmos that one can be certain of. Not even the “we”.
November 20th, 2012 at 6:53 pm
I say all the readers here on NBL charge the Dr.Phil show; Mr. Mcpherson, lead the way! I’ve seen his show and I don’t like the guy much. It seems his only purpose is to make money any way possible. I strongly dislike folks like that.
November 20th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
To those who questioned the authenticity of Dr. Phil’s post above. I’ve never met Dr. Phil but I’ve certainly known the type. They are driven primarily by ego and money. I’m quite confident that if Dr. Phil was ever interested in a site such as this one, he wouldn’t sully himself with the mundane task of actually checking it out. That’s what underlings are for. I guarantee that he is far too busy to do such things. And any official inquiry from his show would not be in the form of a public post but rather would be a private one to the person “in charge”. So, in short, the post was undoubtedly a fake.
BTW, from the department of redundancy department, I’m back from my brief hiatus
November 20th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
About a year ago I looked at a piece of property not far from my place. It was about 500 acres of pristine old growth forest on Crowley’s Ridge with an additional 100 acres of flat farmland. As I walked the property I came across a very small, old, completely overgrown cemetery on a bluff overlooking a stream. I was able to make out a few of the wooden “headstones”. It turns out that they were the burial sites of the wife and children of Benjamin Crowley, the original European settler of this part of Northeast Arkansas, after whom the ridge is named.
The property was way more than I could afford but I enjoyed fantasizing about it just the same. Sadly, the property sold just a few months ago and already the bulldozers are fast at work pushing down all those beautiful old trees and clogging up the natural creeks and ponds. After all, this area is “growing”! We need more subdivisions! Part of it will be used as a cattle farm. Drought be damned!
The grandson of the property owners was in my clinic today and shared with me his heartbreak seeing the property destroyed. Later, my nurse asked me, “when will this ever end? Is there anything that will make them stop?” She was frustrated by the destruction too. I told her it wouldn’t be much longer now if interpretations of current data proves to be accurate.
Mankind will continue its relentless pursuit of dominion over the land until mankind can’t go any longer. There is no rehabilitation. There is only correction of the defective machine.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:19 pm
The REAL Dr. House
Your comments brought to mind the 1970′s film starring Bruce Dern, ‘Silent Running’.
‘Silent Running Trailer’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TckJBvl_uT0
Dern’s character has a mental implosion when his orders are to eject and detonate, with the nuclear payload, the gigantic forrestry life pods which have been put in orbit near Jupiter(?) as a safeguard from species loss. Who wouldn’t have a mental moment? But in his case the character commits murder, by doing away with his small crew.
It is quite dated now as a film, but as we emerge into this century it looks like the horror scenario of ‘the last tree’ or ‘the last stand of trees’ is not so far fetched.
Can you believe it?
Easter Island Earth?
Your nurse asks a very to-the-point question, one that most sane, forward-looking poeple get to if they stop and considder the way ‘we’ collectivly act. This is the technique that Derrik Jensen uses so successfully in his rhetoric – “what will it take to stop?”
This requires the hearer/reader to reflect, and frames the issue in the correct perspective, i.e. the ‘machine’ will keep going and will take a huge force of equal and opposite strength to halt it, assuming BAU.
It is pretty clear to me that the emerging Oxygen issue will loom larger very rapidly, because as the mega lungs of the Earth, the large forests, are being hit and they do not recover with the speed necessary to mittigate the impact. Add to that the die off of trees emerging around the world and a significant factor of Oxygen manufacture will be lost.
As others point out the oceanic phytoplankton are the largest contributor to world Oxygen levels, and they may go in segments in very rapid steps, from ocean acidification.
No indicators we see coming out of reputable sources are giving a good picture of the near term future, event a medium term future for the planet as a whole.
My main argument has been that micro climates and niches are likely to be where variation exists and some favourable sites may persist.
This has not been some kind of deferred denial, just what I considder sound forward looking reasoning.
I am beginning to re-evaluate this and open the door to the ‘all bets are off’ camp. That is just acknowledging that the comprehensive ‘perfect storm’ emerging is a bit ore comprehensive than I have appreciated so far.
Regarding the other bogey, Nuclear War potential, it is worth recalling that the two world oil wars we had last century, were waged when oil was not seen as a diminishing resource, but was a very cheep way to economic expansion and growth, and as such was a powerful incentive for nationalism to resolve make or break economic competition.
Witness Japan’s entry late in the World Oil War II was in major part due to the USA blocking Japan’s access to Oil and Steel, and hence world industrial expansion and market share, by the argy bargy of economic and political diplomacy and forums and agreements etc.
This time round it is clear that the remaining oil resources are not cheep, at least in the longer near term(?), and therefore as a dwindling resourse will probably have a different set of economic and political factors that bare on the motivators to war.
Guy points to the Carter doctrine, and this is a significant articulation of greed wholesale, and good at least to have it out in the open, as a policy, but not so good for the hypocracy it shows when speaking about democracy and its self evident right by all nations… etc.
Anybody want to chime in on this analysis, please do, I am just an armchair professor of world economics and political studies here, (ha ha).
Perhaps that’s what the so called ‘limited scale Nuclear Weopons’ are being developed for?
In any case, these many factors, discussed here, do not add up to much of a hopeful future for this Christmas for me.
‘Head in the sand’ seems an understandable posture for those unable or unwilling to ‘handle the truth.’
‘A Few Good Man “You Can’t Handle the Truth”‘
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo
When he puts it so forcefully, and in that context, ‘the head in the sand’ sounds good by comparrison to understanding and likely NTE of most life on Earth.
Give me the truth anyday.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:46 pm
Guy
I didn’t know some behind-the-scenes work was going on to clean up NBL.
Without wishing to offend, your baby NBL has just hit its adolescent phase, on q with your Thierteenth birthday. (Chuckles)
Welcome to NBL adolescent everyone – requireing no less energy than NBL baby, but way more ‘rational bargaining’ to maintain composure. Puts ‘letting go’ in a new context.
Anarchy, as you define it, is still to me a sufficiently worthy concept to have as an objective here, and for what it’s worth, I would not want to see any moderation or registration, or censorship.
IMO the strength of this site and you so far is your capacity not to fall into the usual traps of controlling the discourse, and I suggest this is a straight from the text book characteristic of Piceans, ruled by Nepyune, the lord of the oceans. Acceptance of all commers, with all dispositions is a very high order social capacity, usually associated with institutiona like spiritual congregations, mental hospitals, and big maternal elder women who have seen it all and can nurture most back to health. Acceptance of all views is also a high worthy ideal to maintain here IMO. Your message is for all people, not just a segment of humanity, and therefore, should remain unmoderated,(IMO).
I suggest a new essay every 3 days, rather than every five, may bring the forum essay topic into focus more.
That is also more work for you, but dare I say the baby having grown, requires more feeding/managment.
Your call, obviously.
Great forum Guy.
BTW when I searched for a segment on Terminator 2 to put up yesterday, your lecture segment at some college forum came up. Seems like the computer language algorithms are defining your message to this bizzare extent.
Cheers.
November 20th, 2012 at 9:55 pm
Amazing documentary, “Chasing Ice,” just opened in New York.
Breathtaking and tragic.
http://www.chasingice.com
November 20th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
OzMan, you wrote Acceptance of all commers, with all dispositions is a very high order social capacity, usually associated with institutiona like spiritual congregations, mental hospitals, and big maternal elder women who have seen it all and can nurture most back to health. Acceptance of all views is also a high worthy ideal to maintain here IMO. Your message is for all people, not just a segment of humanity, and therefore, should remain unmoderated,(IMO).
Spiritual congregations, mental hospitals, and big maternal elder women do not tolerate abuse. It is one thing to welcome all comers, and quite another to welcome being bludgeoned or watching someone else be bludgeoned.
There is a difference between accepting different views and accepting abuse.
November 20th, 2012 at 11:32 pm
Jennifer Hartley
Point taken.
I was not thinking of the abuse side. How you deal with abuse in this forum is unclear as it is not the same as embodied social space, but it maybe that an equivilent acceptable practice could be evolved to do the job. Just attempting to do my bit to move it on.
But you are right that outright acceptance of abuse is not the way.
November 21st, 2012 at 12:39 am
In an anarchy, abuse is met with ostracism by the community. Abuse is judged by standards that emerge within, and are implicit to the community in contrast to explicit standards codified into laws in a hierarchy.
In a blog, the blog owner is the de jure and defacto ruler, the one who can effectively ostracise. The exercise of that power is necessarily consonant with the standards of the blog owner.
November 21st, 2012 at 1:04 am
Jennifer H. “Spiritual congregations, mental hospitals, and big maternal elder women do not tolerate abuse.”
What a delightful linkage, I would never have thought of connecting those three in that way….
I’m rather suspicious of mental hospitals though, as institutions designed to enforce ‘normality’, which in itself may be the acceptance of abuse, in the guise of social and cultural standards.
It may be very difficult to discern and define ‘abuse’. For example, in England it has been normal to dress up in fancy clothes, with horses and a pack of hounds, and chase foxes across the countryside, until the dogs tear them to pieces, as a traditional ritual.
The blood of the fox is smeared over the faces of new initiates.
Whereas to protest against and attempt to prevent such ‘normal’ behaviour has been considered ‘mad’, anti-social, irresponsible, and so on…
How to start a revolution.
November 21st, 2012 at 1:34 am
Gail has this to say, which IMO is exactly what Guy is saying:
http://ourfiniteworld.com/2012/11/20/climate-change-the-standard-fixes-dont-work/
November 21st, 2012 at 1:43 am
Not only are renewables derivatives of oil, they tend to increase emissions because they are add-ons to existing energy sources and thus, due to their being derivatives of oil, use more oil (or other fossil fuels).
Gail Tverberg explains this more in her blog entry Climate Change: The Standard Fixes Don’t Work
Things don’t look good, as Kevin Anderson, of the UK’s Tyndall Centre, explains here (slides available here – PDF). Anderson’s very optimistic hope at the end notwithstanding.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:08 am
dairymandave, thanks for the Living Bridges link, I had not seen that before, very beautiful.
I agree with that article, that the proposed fixes won’t work, but…
A financial collapse related to high oil price may be part of Nature’s approach to moving to a new state. It could bring about a reduction in world trade and a scale back in CO2 emissions.3 The resulting change could be abrupt, and not to many people’s liking, since most will not be prepared for it.
Eh ? That makes no sense to me. ‘Nature’s approach’ ? The financial system, the oil price, world trade, etc, are not ‘Nature’, they are artificial manmade systems. Seems to me like a fundamental philosophical confusion there. A river is a natural system. A stock market isn’t a natural system, neither is a bank or an electricity grid. These things were designed and built by humans in line with capitalist ideology, typically in total disregard of nature and natural systems.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:17 am
I gave up organized religion years ago but still consider some of the morals and values to be important, very important (and there is still that matter of matter). Consider that respect for Nature and respect for your neighbor, blog or otherwise, constitute the two great commandments shared by the great religions. I hope everyone viewed “Living Bridges” posted earlier. It is a beautiful example of respect for nature and ourselves.
I was thinking, actually I woke up very early this morning thinking about it, not so much about whether Dr. Phil was fake or not but what that post said. On a bell curve we could say we are over on the edge, maybe more honest than the average person is. We see ourselves as we really are, an invasive species, hungry for energy at all cost, destroying the future for our children. We hate the systems, the educational system, the economic system, the health/sickness system, the ag system, the political system, the religious systems. So it’s hard to not hate ourselves and it’s hard to have respect for ourselves and others. We are part of it. So we act it out. One easy way is to rebel against the rules of grammar; spelling, punctuation, capital letters etc. That says “I hate the system” but truly the language isn’t at fault. It’s the only part of the system that ISN’T at fault. We need the language to communicate respectfully with others about all of this we know to be true and we need to do it the best we can. We need to “dot all the I’s and cross all the T’s”.
So going on, what do we deserve for ourselves? I hope we didn’t set a trap for ourselves. Can we ever really respect ourselves?
By the way, speaking as a farmer, you reap what you sow. Do it very carefully…or you won’t eat. We shot 2 cows the other day because they collapsed. We didn’t respect their physical and nutritional needs adequately. We were careless. You don’t fool nature. Best to respect it.
Here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jrmm7gjZGE
David
November 21st, 2012 at 2:24 am
Exactly, U. Gail holds back usually. She doesn’t come right out and say it: “WE DID IT”. We are the guilty ones. But we are. Unless we take Reg Morrison’s view that we should not expect otherwise.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:54 am
I agree with much of that, David, however..
One easy way is to rebel against the rules of grammar; spelling, punctuation, capital letters etc. That says “I hate the system” but truly the language isn’t at fault. It’s the only part of the system that ISN’T at fault. We need the language to communicate respectfully with others about all of this we know to be true and we need to do it the best we can. We need to “dot all the I’s and cross all the T’s”.
Speaking about Britain, the obsession with ‘correct’ grammar, etc, has been used as a device to enforce the class structure, to exclude those who did not have the privilege of elite education. That has nothing whatsoever to do with communication or respect, it’s a means to exclude those who don’t know the ‘secret rules of the club’.
It’s like the medical profession, or the legal profession, or computer geeks, all have their own jargon that is obscure to outsiders.
Another point is that languages are living things. All attempts to confine them to a set of rules have failed, because usage is always changing. The ultimate rule is that usage trumps rules.
As people have come into possession of mobile phones and SMS texting, the language they use has changed and adapted. Nobody can stop that. You can’t say it’s ‘wrong’, just because you don’t like it and it’s different to what you were taught in your youth. What you were taught was ‘wrong’, if compared with standard Victorian, or 16th C. English of Shakespeare or the King James Bible, which again was ‘wrong’ if compared with earlier times.
IMO, the only thing that matters is whether a person can express what they wish to say, in adequate terms, so that someone else can at least partially understand what they are trying to communicate. Perfection is impossible because language is ambiguous, full of inconsistencies, english especially so, with bizarre spellings and nonsensical exceptions to rules.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:15 am
David : We see ourselves as we really are, an invasive species, hungry for energy at all cost, destroying the future for our children. We hate the systems, the educational system, the economic system, the health/sickness system, the ag system, the political system, the religious systems. So it’s hard to not hate ourselves and it’s hard to have respect for ourselves and others. We are part of it. So we act it out.
I sort of see it that way, that the people gathered here are fringe, weirdos, who have been so shocked by what they see coming, that they have to speak up, they can’t just go back to sleep and submerge themselves in the mainstream delusion.
I don’t hate myself at all. I really like who I am. He’s an amazing person, who has been through some really terrible devastating things and survived and kept his integrity and self-respect. I live with this man that I am, every minute, all day, every day, it’s wonderful !
As for respecting others, well, I don’t, until I see something worth respecting. I mean, there have been people I’ve got to know very well, for whom I have tremendous respect and admiration. But thinking about a cross-section of the general population, they are just appalling…. why should I have any respect for such people ? I know it’s not entirely their fault, they are products of the culture, created by the system…
November 21st, 2012 at 3:26 am
ulvfugl, I better spell it out, hard as it is, or I’ll be accused of something. Regarding grammar vs. language. Bad grammar is like building a house without windows to save effort. It’s like building a house without using nails. I’m talking about the basic structural components of the language, not the new words that may evolve. New words are the furnishings of the house. What’s the point of building a house without windows or without nails? Maybe it’s a good idea to build one on sand!
David
November 21st, 2012 at 3:29 am
Funny how we respect the rules of football right down to the finest detail, with all those instant replays. Explain that.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:34 am
I don’t hate myself at all. I really like who I am. He’s an amazing person, who has been through some really terrible devastating things and survived and kept his integrity and self-respect. I live with this man that I am, every minute, all day, every day, it’s wonderful !
Does anyone want to swap seats with me?
November 21st, 2012 at 3:46 am
The question of whether particulate that causes dimming is holding back climate change has been raised here and on another blog. Doing a bit of research I found this – which suggests that cleaning China emissions might raise global temps further. Of course economic downturn or collapse would do that quicker. I don’t think even the folks at AMEG or Arctic News have thought about that…..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/04/sulphur-pollution-china-coal-climate
The huge increase in coal-fired power stations in China has masked the impact of global warming in the last decade because of the cooling effect of their sulphur emissions, new research has revealed. But scientists warn that rapid warming is likely to resume when the short-lived sulphur pollution – which also causes acid rain – is cleaned up and the full heating effect of long-lived carbon dioxide is felt….
The new study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday, analysed possible reasons for the flat 1998-2008 temperature trend using climate models and concluded that it was unlikely to be due simply to the random variation inherent in the planet’s climate system. Instead it found the effect of sulphur, the sun and El Niño dominated, with the El Niño climate phase peaking in 1998 – the hottest year ever recorded – then moving into a phase dominated by its cooler mirror image, La Niña. The scientists ruled out changes in water vapour or carbon soot in the atmosphere as significant factors.
They emphasised the rapid increase in coal burning in Asia, and in China in particular, noting that Chinese coal consumption doubled between 2002 and 2007: the previous doubling had taken 22 years.
November 21st, 2012 at 4:05 am
David Bad grammar is like building a house without windows to save effort. It’s like building a house without using nails. I’m talking about the basic structural components of the language, not the new words that may evolve. New words are the furnishings of the house. What’s the point of building a house without windows or without nails? Maybe it’s a good idea to build one on sand!
I see what you are saying, but I think you are confusing ‘good craftsmanship’, which can be applied to almost any task a person does, say, preparing a meal or painting a picture or building a stone wall, with communication. Communication is something quite different.
The way I look at it, if you’re locked in a solitary prison cell, never see anyone, food through a tiny hatch. You hear three knocks on the water pipe. That means there’s another human, in another cell. You reply, with three knocks. And hear three more knocks in return.
That’s communication. It’s a signal from one consciousness to another. That’s the essence of language.
You want to fix and formalise it. Like freezing a river. Lots of people agree with you, and get very upset about any infringement of the rules. I’m not one of those people. I’m interested in hearing the other consciousness, whether human or non-human, and what it is that is being signaled.
Computer languages have to be exact. One mistake and the program won’t run. Human language doesn’t work like that. The reader, or the hearer, fills in blanks all the time, trying to make sense of the fragments of information, interpreting them, colouring them. Most of what most people say most of the time is not strictly logical at all, it’s full of ums and ers and pauses and spaces, because that’s how human minds work, they aren’t anything like computers.
As for football, who cares, I don’t
Yes, if you want to play chess with someone, the rules have to be fixed and agreed, otherwise the game won’t work. But human communication is far more flexible. I mean, we speak in metaphors, subtleties, nuances, ironies, suggestions, none of which have to be literal or logical.
One reason why Americans sometimes can’t understand British, is because of the agreed convention, in Britain, to mean what you say by saying the opposite of what you mean. For example, if the weather is really BAD, wet, cold, windy, and you meet someone, you say ‘Lovely weather !’.
November 21st, 2012 at 4:40 am
For example, if the weather is really BAD, wet, cold, windy, and you meet someone, you say ‘Lovely weather!’.
Yes, it happens all the time. The weather was particularly bad, wet, cold and windy in my part of northwest England on Monday, and I had a man in to fix the boiler.
He said, “It’s nasty outside, isn’t it?” I agreed that it was.
November 21st, 2012 at 5:08 am
Reasons Web 2.0 doesn’t work. Example one.
David said: “We see ourselves as we really are, an invasive species, hungry for energy at all cost, destroying the future for our children. We hate the systems, the educational system, the economic system, the health/sickness system, the ag system, the political system, the religious systems. So it’s hard to not hate ourselves and it’s hard to have respect for ourselves and others. We are part of it. So we act it out.”
That is an excellent summation of where we are, and goes far in explaining why this web space has the problems it does. Problems, that is, that transcend the usual desperate fighting for the throne that plagues everywhere else, though that is a problem here too.
And the particular problem lies in the nature of the people this blog attracts. People who find it “hard to not hate themselves,” who find it hard to respect others, because we are “part of this [omnicidal death machine],” so we act it out.
If Web 2.0 worked, this statement would become the centrepiece of an extended discussion. But that isn’t what happens.
I have noted that some here demand nothing less than absolute intellectual integrity, but I’m not sure what that means. I hope it doesn’t mean that you’re not allowed to change your mind. Indeed, the standard of allowable discourse has become so high that the view must by now be simply incredible. Unfortunately, I suffer from vertigo, and so must stay closer to the ground.
Indeed, there are some here who demand nothing less than a conversation with someone possessing intellectual integrity and depth of character, yet when those same persons are presented with the perfect seed around which a useful discussion could grow, they deny it, invert it, make the rest of their response all about themselves, and so sabotage it.
I put it to you, that a grown-up who desired a fruitful discussion with someone of intellectual integrity and depth of character would undertake such a thing in private, by correspondence. That is the way that it has traditionally been done. World literature is replete with many fine examples of letters exchanged between people of renown.
What they would not do is make this lofty claim and then proceed to devote their time, entirely online, to sabotaging potential discussions of this nature.
Web 2.0 doesn’t work.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:04 am
ulvfugl, This all got started, I understand, with texting from a cell phone. Capital letters is a real pain. Capital letters is all I’m arguing about. I agree with all you said. Anyhow, I decided to save energy and effort by not shifting my car any more. It’ll stay in low gear all the time. I’ve got better things to do.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:08 am
Suicide cult ?
With six weeks left in the year, the Army and Navy are already reporting record numbers of suicides, with the Air Force and Marine Corps close to doing the same, making 2012 the worst year for military suicides since careful tracking began in 2001.
The deaths are now occurring at a rate faster than one per day.
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=44149
November 21st, 2012 at 6:24 am
ulvfugl, This all got started, I understand, with texting from a cell phone. Capital letters is a real pain. Capital letters is all I’m arguing about. I agree with all you said. Anyhow, I decided to save energy and effort by not shifting my car any more. It’ll stay in low gear all the time. I’ve got better things to do.
No problem, David, I’m not demanding that anyone agrees with my take on language, grammar, syntax, etc. that zEr iZ nO rO0Olz
If you can understand that, then my point is proven… 
Sort of…
I think it began in UK before mobile phones, with a movement in education that downgraded the importance of teaching formal rules in favour of self-expression and creativity… which produced a generation or two of illiterate school leavers… along with the punk movement which subverted every aspect of culture that it could.
I do use capitals to begin a new sentence, and attempt to follow grammatical conventions, because I was taught that way, it’s habitual, and it is clearer ( to me).
I have come across come across conversations on websites and twitter, etc, between teenagers who use their own version of the ‘english’ language, that is almost completely opaque to me, probably deliberately so. I could fret and complain about that, but what good would it do ? If it serves their purposes and they can understand it, they are not going to change it because some old man grumbles about ‘proper spelling’ are they.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:28 am
In an anarchy, abuse is met with ostracism by the community. Abuse is judged by standards that emerge within, and are implicit to the community in contrast to explicit standards codified into laws in a hierarchy.
I’m going to die laughing. Please do tell how the standards that emerge within the community are distinguishable from codified standards enjoyed by hierarchies.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:42 am
ulvfugl, If you expect to sell a house, use nails. If you expect to get a job, use grammar. If you expect to sell a house build on sand, go ahead; they sell very well! Or should I say did sell.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:44 am
A note on standards of grammar and rules governing punctuation and spelling.
It ought to be obvious, though some seem to have overlooked it, that rules on spelling and punctuation apply only to written language. Let me restate it: everything communicated here is written language. Therefore, the rules governing grammar and punctuation apply.
The meta question is: does grammar and punctuation matter?
They do. Though it turns out that social critics rather than grammarians are most concerned with where indifference to the rules of grammar and punctuation are taking us.
Orwell was among the first to realise the relationship between abuse of language and tyranny.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:48 am
Anarchy is a concept that eludes the confines of definition. You can’t and don’t nail it down. If you attempt to move toward it by first defining it then you will only move further from its manifestation. If anyone is serious about creating an environment that enables anarchy it would be wise, at least in a space like this, to drop all names. The more we attempt to define ourselves here through our words rather than just letting the words be without attaching us to them with our onerous personalities, the closer we may come to an anarchy of ideas and critical thought here. But, so long as we continue to identify ourselves and jockey for position, recognition and status within yet another fabricated group, an anarchy of free thought and intellectual honesty cannot and will not take root and flourish. If no one is interested in that it’s understandable, but at least be honest enough to say you’re not and you would rather create a simulacrum of the larger system rather than engage in an experiment of pure critical thought and reason.
How many here would be willing to drop all names and just post ideas and thoughts? When you do that, it makes it extremely difficult for group dynamics to mitigate free and critical thought. No doubt if people are motivated enough, they may find a way around that, but that outcome would be very telling and would serve to underscore what has already been mentioned, and that is most people don’t know what anarchy really is, and most people don’t really want anarchy. Anarchy is a frightening notion for most people, because it involves a certain level of letting go. It requires a jettisoning of the anchors of order in order to proceed into the uncharted territory of psyche. Most lack not only the capacity for such an endeavor, but also any motivation to bring it about.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:51 am
We can respect ourselves simply because we don’t support all that corruption. To some degree we walked away from it, although my straw bale house isn’t built yet. We try to see and tell the truth even though most folks don’t want to hear it. Personally, that leaves me somewhat a loner around this place; every time I open my mouth, everyone tries to close it. But I still have my respect.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:55 am
David, I worked much of my life in the building trade. Nobody cared whether anybody could spell or use grammar, or even if they could read or write, so long as they could use a shovel, lay a drain, drive a digger, or whatever useful activity their job involved.
That’s where the class divide kicks in. There’s plenty of middle and upper class folk, with posh and expensive educations, who can cover pages with pretentious meaningless verbiage, who don’t really have a clue about anything, but who, in their own estimation, are superior, because they know the difference between a colon and a semi-colon.
Btw, fwiw, Paul Kingsnorth is trying to get funding for his latest book, which he has written in his own invented language… is that against ‘the rules’ ? ( No need to answer, because I really don’t care. )
November 21st, 2012 at 6:57 am
But, so long as we continue to identify ourselves and jockey for position, recognition and status within yet another fabricated group
Morocco Bama, you have a personality disorder that is so big it could be plugged by a drunkenly thrown beer can from 40 paces.
November 21st, 2012 at 6:58 am
Orwell was among the first to realise the relationship between abuse of language and tyranny.
Civilization is about domination and control. Language is part of that process so of course language and the abuse thereof will be used by those who seek to further dominate and control.
I consider Ebonics to be an abuse of language, and whereas I find it irritating and fascinating, I wouldn’t consider it tyrannical. In fact, quite the opposite. I find its inculcation and manifestation as a rebellion against tyranny, not as something that seeks to be tyrannical.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:04 am
Morocco Bama, you have a personality disorder that is so big it could be plugged by a drunkenly thrown beer can from 40 paces.
This is an example of not being motivated to engage in free thought and critical discussion. It clings to the old notions of order and the need for domination and control. If you can move the discussion from the ideas to the person and define and contain the person, the ideas that may bring discomfort to a worldview that took much time and effort to develop, are at risk of being challenged and perhaps abandoned and replaced with something more enlightening and progressive.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:11 am
Domination and control? Balls to that. Face it, Morocco. You have a serious problem. But I’m among the few who won’t tell you to get help, because I am among the few who know there is no real help available to you. Nevertheless, I do have some advice, which, I might add, I readily apply to myself: take up a hobby. Attend a drawing class.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:16 am
Bad grammar is like building a house without windows to save effort.
But the point of this discussion is that the house has to burn, and if abuse of grammar helps quicken that very probable eventuality, then all the better, right? No more houses. No more nails. Embrace the notion of Burning Down the House (not the Dr., of course) and take a refesher course in Ebonics post haste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNnAvTTaJjM
November 21st, 2012 at 7:20 am
Domination and control? Balls to that. Face it, Morocco. You have a serious problem. But I’m among the few who won’t tell you to get help, because I am among the few who know there is no real help available to you. Nevertheless, I do have some advice, which, I might add, I readily apply to myself: take up a hobby. Attend a drawing class.
The above is not a discussion of ideas. It’s quite the opposite. There’s so much to discuss, why bother with the personal? Stick to the ideas and let the illusion of personality dissipate into the wind of free thought conversation.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:44 am
All right, I’ll take that as a challenge. Let’s dispense with the personal. I mentioned art. That is not a bad point of departure. I have the growing conviction that art pursued for its own sake offers genuine release from the emotional jam we quickly get into with our preoccupation with our insoluble predicament.
I’m fortunate in that I’m a natural draftsman (American spelling!) so drawing comes naturally to me, but that, it turns out, means I need special training to overcome the style that comes easily to me. In other words, talent is a handicap. Doesn’t matter.
Hell, why bother with doing any art? It’s fun to collect pencils! It really is! And all the other art paraphernalia. I just won, on eBay, an old wooden pencil case. You see? Distraction. Stop bothering, Morocco. You have a serious personality disorder. So what? Stop caring. Do art.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:47 am
.,
But the point of this discussion is that the house has to burn, and if abuse of grammar helps quicken that very probable eventuality, then all the better, right? No more houses. No more nails. Embrace the notion of Burning Down the House (not the Dr., of course) and take a refesher course in Ebonics post haste.
., my bad, you most definitely be needin’ Ebonics!
(snap)
November 21st, 2012 at 7:50 am
Stop caring. Do art.
Art is about caring. Art is an effort to fill the void created by the lack of primal and visceral fulfillment. For certain, it’s an inferior attempt, but it’s all about caring. It’s an attempt to return to Eden where we belong. Words serve the same purpose. Personality runs interference in that caring process.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:55 am
Well, stop public caring (you’re bad at it) and start private caring (you need it desperately).
November 21st, 2012 at 8:01 am
Well, stop public caring (you’re bad at it) and start private caring (you need it desperately).
There is no “you.” Don’t waste time trying to create one where none exists, and instead discuss ideas. Get out of Cerebellum and get into the Cerebrum.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:10 am
“I sort of see it that way, that the people gathered here are fringe, weirdos, who have been so shocked by what they see coming, that they have to speak up, they can’t just go back to sleep and submerge themselves in the mainstream delusion.”
Yes. Absolutely.
Those of us who have come to the realization that our civilization is a death cult, that we have destroyed the biosphere and ruined (for ourselves and other life forms) a beautiful planet (which, as far as we know, may be a rarity in the cosmos), understandably resent the mass of somnambulant humanity that continues to destroy with abandon.
Personally, I have engaged in a kind of disassociation from the meat puppets (which is why I call them “meat puppets”). I feel like an alien who got stranded here; or who was sent here to witness what it looks like when a sentient species commits omnicide because it is not sentient enough. The fact that most of us are condemned to an awareness of the end and cannot share it meaningfully with those around us without being silenced, marginalized (or worse), is psychologically debilitating over time.
Much of what we are seeing here in some of the ego wars is just frustration.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:18 am
Yep. Definitely Morocco. Who else would capitalize cerebellum and cerebrum?
Why even try to talk to Morocco, who won’t even give his real name?
I don’t care. I’m groaning with experience. The timbers creak. Cold and strange mountains rear up. What is this terrible silence? I am in a room. My tongue is frozen. I walk through strange lands. The stores are boarded up. The telephone wires sing. The foothills conceal their secrets. Looking for odd jobs in the small towns. Rejected many times. Where do I sleep, they ask? I sleep in churches, but they don’t know that. I don’t tell them. I awaken, the sunlight pouring through the stained glass. I’m reading about packed earth. It’s a short story by John Updike.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:23 am
I’m going to die laughing. Please do tell how the standards that emerge within the community are distinguishable from codified standards enjoyed by hierarchies.
The difference between anarchy and hierarchy is that the former abjures the initiation of coercive violence to force its standards upon peaceful non-compliers. It is a concept beyond the ken of authoritarians: hence they find it risible.
Spoken language is constantly in flux. The greater the pace of change in environment, culture and society, the greater the flux. Written language freezes an instant in that flux, and reflects the norms of that instant. Yet it can convey subtleties of meaning to those attuned to the nuances of that writing. Such refinement takes time to develop. Afro-American English has its own richness of such subtlety that is lost to those unacquainted with it. Indeed, for my first six months in this country (in Mount Vernon, NY) I could not understand what they were saying when persons were conversing in it.
Capitals and punctuation convey some elements of the subtlety, but only to those acquainted with it. There are languages without these tools that are just as communicative, but again only to those acquainted with them.
Fluency in more than one language gives one an appreciation each language that is denied to others. Where I went to school, we (I and my classmates) could and did switch from English to Urdu (and vice-versa) in midsentence while retaining meaning and grammar on both sides of the switch.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:24 am
There are at least nine uses of the word “I” in that last expression.
November 21st, 2012 at 8:58 am
Well, Robin Data(great name, by the way), you will encounter no resistance here.
People from the right, on the other hand, will object to your use of language as a means to ingratiate yourself to the reigning powers.
suck suck schlooooeeeeep, suck, sycophantic schlupp, etcetera
November 21st, 2012 at 9:08 am
An authoritarian. My god. Oh wait. I already fucked him. god, i mean. The chief rabbi of the united kingdom, jonathan something or other, complained that the chief atheist, whose name i forget, was anti-Semitic because he slagged off the god who decided that jews are chosen.
but i already fucked him up the arse!!! doesn’t it count? it counts. why are they taking me away? I’m trying to be honest here. these nebbischers. oy gevalt. i did good. dont take me away. what will happen to me … they’re putting me on a train …
November 21st, 2012 at 9:09 am
men invented writing. men use writing. men. men. men.
no women in the prestigious academies who make the rules of language.
NBL? men, men, men. chase some men away, more men come. oh well. it is the same all over, so normal, so mainstream, so ingrained. why not accept it and bow to their rules:-(
fuke the capitals (i work as a translator and the computer puts the capitals in after a . when it does not: too much trouble and not that nice)
it is the summer (very very warm weather) of the dead trees here. and i spend the short rest of my life on internet (what else?) asking myself questions like: was it really a good thing to «save» the babies? http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_224519&feature=iv&index=7&list=PLlGSlkijht5ixd1YeghjJipmzYflAFYJH&src_vid=-rj9Wx_jg40&v=9QijM72iwSs
p.s. to dairyman: i have a book about old Russia where the most beautiful buidings are constructed entirely without nails. all superposed sculpted cedar shakes that hold together since hundreds of years.
November 21st, 2012 at 9:15 am
men invented writing. men use writing. men. men. men.
no women in the prestigious academies who make the rules of language.
NBL? men, men, men. chase some men away, more men come. oh well. it is the same all over, so normal, so mainstream, so ingrained. why not accept it and bow to their rules:-(
Using this logic, a “man” “runs” this blog. What about that? In fact, the Collapse Community is dominated by “male” spokesmen. Why is that?
November 21st, 2012 at 9:24 am
michele/montreal : i have a book about old Russia where the most beautiful buidings are constructed entirely without nails. all superposed sculpted cedar shakes that hold together since hundreds of years.
I also had that thought. Many old houses I have worked on were made with a timber frame of oak, pegged together with oak ‘trennels’ = tree nails. This cottage I live in is built of stones embedded in earth, about 1787. In those days iron nails were made one at a time by blacksmiths, so were used very sparingly.
November 21st, 2012 at 10:48 am
You guys get my point. Let’s change the subject. A quick review of this group:
This group advocates total collapse of the entire global economy. When did that last happen?
This group states that even that event is too late to prevent another event.
The other event is an ELE, extinction level event, on its way, anyway. When was the last ELE?
But it’s even worse than that. It’s really an NTE, near term extinction, which now includes most everyone alive now. It’s right around the corner.
You just said WHAT? Ye Gads. Even Socrates didn’t say shit like this.
So let’s pretend that I’m Dr. Phil. I work for the system and I depend on that system for my money and my ego. I believe in progress. Along comes a group that essentially threatens to “turn over the tables of the money changers”.
This is going to be one hell of a show. We’ll let the people vote on this one. I wash my hands. Are these people lunitics or what? They need help. (what they really need is to be stopped) Whatever, my ratings are sure to go up!
Have I got this review correct?
November 21st, 2012 at 11:03 am
Justice for All
Survival, seen as a game,
Shows winners as strong, and not lame;
With no rules, you know,
Social power can grow
By labeling scapegoats to blame.
OTOH, looking ahead,
Those never having much bread—
Blameless victims, okay?—
Are avenged on the day
When everyone’s finally dead.
November 21st, 2012 at 11:10 am
We still use 2 barns that are beam framed. Pegs rather than nails.
I prefer starting a sentence with a capital. A sentence has a subject and a verb. It ends with a period. If we are going to change all the rules, we need a new name for it. I can adapt.
What really upsets me, though, is how we apply this thinking to the rules of nature. When I took typing in school, if the teacher caught anyone looking at the keyboard even once, they got an F. No questions allowed. If anyone breaks the rules of nature, they will also get F. No questions allowed. We broke the rules. We could at least have given nature as much respect as we give football.
That’s what NBL is all about, as I see it.
November 21st, 2012 at 11:20 am
We broke the rules. We could at least have given nature as much respect as we give football.
A barn with nails, wooden or iron, is breaking the “rules,” if there is such a thing. Barns are used for purposes of accumulation. Accumulation is at the heart of this System.
November 21st, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Ulvfugl, you wrote I’m rather suspicious of mental hospitals though, as institutions designed to enforce ‘normality’, which in itself may be the acceptance of abuse, in the guise of social and cultural standards.
I agree. Having personal experience with this, years ago, I can attest to the abuse, both subtle and overt, that exists in mental hospitals. My comment about them ‘not tolerating abuse’ was more of a reference to their nominal commitment to a safe environment. I should have been more clear. The same goes for religious institutions.
., you wrote There’s so much to discuss, why bother with the personal? Stick to the ideas and let the illusion of personality dissipate into the wind of free thought conversation.
I would find this impossible, myself. I don’t think human animals, as a relational species, relate very well in that way. We are not just a frontal lobe sitting on a table. Context matters.
Regarding language: it matters. That said, I have tolerance for any style of communication as long as it’s sincere.
November 21st, 2012 at 1:21 pm
You guys get my point. Let’s change the subject. A quick review of this group:
This group advocates total collapse of the entire global economy. When did that last happen?
This group states that even that event is too late to prevent another event.
The other event is an ELE, extinction level event, on its way, anyway. When was the last ELE?
But it’s even worse than that. It’s really an NTE, near term extinction, which now includes most everyone alive now. It’s right around the corner.
You just said WHAT? Ye Gads. Even Socrates didn’t say shit like this.
So let’s pretend that I’m Dr. Phil. I work for the system and I depend on that system for my money and my ego. I believe in progress. Along comes a group that essentially threatens to “turn over the tables of the money changers”.
This is going to be one hell of a show. We’ll let the people vote on this one. I wash my hands. Are these people lunitics or what? They need help. (what they really need is to be stopped) Whatever, my ratings are sure to go up!
Have I got this review correct?
I’ll have a go at that, David, my personal perspective only :
‘Advocates’ is the wrong term. It’s more analogous to explaining that removing the cause of the disease, rather than attempting to treat the symptoms, is the only logical way to save the patient. The patient being the biosphere which permits us to exist.
The global economic and industrial system, built on the premise that it can keep on expanding and polluting forever, is the cause of the disease. On a finite planet, with finite resources, continual growth is impossible. So it will collapse. That’s inevitable.
How long is the BIG question.
Collapse sooner, would be better, from the point of view of the biosphere, whilst a partially viable biosphere remains, because, once the biosphere collapses, that’s the end if us all and most life on Earth, a major mass-extinction event.
It’s not like this is wild-eyed raving speculation. It is happening now. We are in it. IMO, some of the people here have grasped this horror, understood it, and are coming to terms with it. It’s not like any of us here can do anything effective to change this prospect.
We’ve seen the huge hole in the cruise liner. We’ve seen the enormous quantities of water flooding in. We can see the thing is sinking, fast. We can see that most passengers have not even noticed…
The rest, all the Dr Phils and their audiences, all around the world, are going to have to face up to what is occurring, eventually. How they will react is anybody’s guess. At the moment they still deny reality and pretend there is no problem.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:03 pm
A decade or two ago, it would have been fair to say that a group of people saying what gets said here, were rather odd, out on the fringe, because there were fewer voices.
But I and others have been saying this stuff for decades. Now it’s well into the mainstream. For example,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/9693629/Risk-of-catastrophic-climate-change-increases-as-emissions-gap-widens.html
But the mainstream still don’t get it. They still don’t understand about the ocean acidification, the methane feedback, the extra 2 Chinas worth of people due to arrive, and so on and so on…
People still think that there must be some magic fix, some sort of reform, that somebody, somewhere will do something to sort out this mess painlessly….
The way I see it, they can’t stop doing the economic industrial thing, because, if/when it crashes, a couple of billion people who depend upon it, will perish…
Nobody wants to face that.
So, they will continue, BAU, until it crashes. And the billions still get to perish, just a bit later, with the Earth in an even worse condition.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:13 pm
ulvfugl,
Interesting how the world’s decision-makers are, ever so softly, publicly beginning the process of backing away from the 2C limit in favor of a new 4C “red line”. It’s becoming clear to them that the amount of CO2 already in the atmosphere will blow the world past 2C.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:23 pm
David Graeber interview.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Yes, Arthur J., 2 deg C never was ‘safe’, it was just a politically expedient excuse to continue BAU, rather like what you hear from junkies and alcoholics, there’s always ‘a very good reason’ not to stop…
They’re talking about 4 deg at the end of the century… still nice and far away, like maybe face rehab in five years…
I think we get 4 deg much sooner, and after that the situation runs away with itself…
I read another feedback I hadn’t thought of before. Greenland and similar ice masses melting, means the surface is at lower altitude, where the air is warmer, so the ice melts faster…
November 21st, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Regarding language: it matters.
Of course it matters. It’s a part of the formulaic glue that enables Civilization and holds it together.
as long as it’s sincere.
How is this determined? Isn’t it a highly subjective exercise and/or process to determine sincerity? If personality and all its implications are involved, the waters of that already highly subjective process are further muddied. If it’s just ideas absent the associated personalities, then those ideas are determined to be valid, or not, and the obfuscation and distraction of determining sincerity is rendered irrelevant.
I don’t think human animals, as a relational species, relate very well in that way.
Compared to other mammals and primates, if given the opportunity, the human animal with its highly functioning frontal lobe can relate quite well to ideas if not for the cult of personality getting in the way. This context, the internet, is a perfect medium for pure frontal lobe exchange, and in fact, a strong argument can be made that it’s a poor environment in which to attempt to engender the relating referred to in the italicized comment above. In fact, that form of relating is what has transported the “human animal” to this point. Either the “human animal” migrates to what it once was, or it evolves to another way of relating. This current way hasn’t worked out very well. Or, the “human animal” might just perish, which of course is highly probable.
November 21st, 2012 at 2:59 pm
So, they will continue, BAU, until it crashes. And the billions still get to perish, just a bit later, with the Earth in an even worse condition.
That’s one possible way it may unfold, but not the only way. Maybe drastic measures are instituted within the next five to ten years. Perhaps as part of those drastic measures, a lottery is created to select various people involuntarily for depopulation. There are so many maybes on how this will transpire, and maybe more than one of those maybes happens at different times and/or concurrently. Considering the endemic corruption of all institutions everywhere, would it even be advisable to seek any sort of remedy via said corrupt institutions? Maybe that wouldn’t be so prudent considering the track record of these institutions up to this point. In light of that, maybe it’s not such a bad idea to defer the inevitable for as long as possible. At least that way, billions of lives can enjoy the beauty of life just a wee bit longer. To argue otherwise is too easy, and calling for billions to die sooner rather than later falls a bit too easily from the lips. They are human beings we are talking about, afterall, who love and dream and cry and smile, who have mothers, fathers, brother, sisters, aunts and uncles. Of course, if they are just meat sacks, then yes, it’s easy to say sooner rather than later, just as it’s easy for Obama & Co. to drop bombs on meat sacks without an ounce of compassion or remorse.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:18 pm
Would the punctuation mark formerly known as Morrocco Bama please find another forum to pontificate his non-referent nonsence. No one here is interested in your gibberish.
Plus
I can’t believe how the rest of you STILL let this cretin bait you into actually trying to engage and communicate with it (the punctuation mark, that is) when any kind of what in normally understood to be communication is NOT what he wants to achieve. He is a snake, slippery, impossible to grasp, always squirming to new goal posts, new nonsence, new non-referent BS.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:48 pm
.,
Now that we know what the next U.S. Congress looks like, and know the details of China’s 12th Five-Year Plan, I think it’s safe to say that “drastic measures” to try mitigating GHG emissions cannot be implemented until 2015 at the earliest. By then, at the very least, Arctic sea ice area will be down to 1 million sq km or less at the end of the summer melt.
November 21st, 2012 at 3:49 pm
.,
http://cbi.typepad.com/china_direct/2011/05/chinas-twelfth-five-new-plan-the-full-english-version.html
November 21st, 2012 at 3:54 pm
Now that we know what the next U.S. Congress looks like, and know the details of China’s 12th Five-Year Plan, I think it’s safe to say that “drastic measures” to try mitigating GHG emissions cannot be implemented until 2015 at the earliest.
This is probably correct, but considering the probability of catastrophic Climate Change effects, plans can change, and change rather quickly. Five-Year Plans in the face of this seems a farce.
November 21st, 2012 at 5:11 pm
We’ll let the people vote on this one.
The only vote that counts is Nature’s. The speculation is, “Has it already been cast?” If it has, it matters little what the crowd says. Even a cataclysmic collapse of Industrial Civilisation will not change that vote once it has been cast. Hanging chad, anyone?
We do not even know the lag time between the vote and the inauguration (for the god/dess of Destruction) or when the vote might have been cast.
November 21st, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Robin, I couldn’t agree more. If “we the people” voted, we did it in our sleep.
November 21st, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Ivy Mike Says:
November 17th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Do you treat reproductive humans’—Breeders’!—”particular human behaviour” with “scorn or dismay” that precisely measures your “ignorance,” Robert Thankyoufornotbreeding Atack?
No Ivy Mike, after learning how people think, I gave up, and just learned to accept the utter hopelessness of it all.
I’m just so happy and lucky I don’t have any children.
November 21st, 2012 at 10:26 pm
A bad, sad time indeed. In my corner of the world the techno-fundamentalists at all levels (from the mailroom to the board room) confidently portray delusions as solutions.
A friend of mine says there won’t be any medals for “I told you so”. Oh well, I suppose if a few understand the real deal at least we won’t be alone.
November 21st, 2012 at 11:11 pm
Ulvfugl wrote: “People still think that there must be some magic fix, some sort of reform, that somebody, somewhere will do something to sort out this mess painlessly….”
The last remnant of the Enlightenment’s belief in the reign of the Man of Reason is the faith people have in politics. All things can be remedied by policy changes. A new party, or a new leader, or a new King, or plutocrat, or general, or CEO will fix it.
The economic and social system we call global capitalism took centuries to construct. It is designed to devour the planet (which is considered nothing more than a repository of material resources to be mined so that our interminable desire for stuff can be satisfied). The system is not designed to stop devouring. To use the ship analogy, there is no one at the helm. Yes, there are groups and perhaps even elite families that are influential, but no one has the power to stop the system, or to fundamentally change it. Who, after all, can decree that the world economy come to a halt and that billions die? The Chinese are planning to build as many coal fueled power plants as it takes to keep the lights on. Who is going to stop them? Who is going to tell the wonderful middle class AmeriKans that they must start living like celibate third world peasants in order to save Gaia?
Biology, geology, climatology, ocean physics, et cetera, transcend politics. The REALITY is that it’s over. As organisms, we’re already dead we just haven’t realized it yet.
Those of us on this blog are just different versions of Kierkegaard’s clown.
“It happened that a fire broke out backstage at a theater. The clown came out to inform the public. They thought it was just a jest and applauded. He repeated his warning, they shouted even louder. So I think the world will come to an end amid general applause from all the wits, who believe that it is a joke.”
Either/Or, vol. I, p. 30
November 22nd, 2012 at 2:29 am
I see it very much as you do, depressive lucidity. What then can the clowns do ? Dance the Tarantella ?
The Chinese are planning to build as many coal fueled power plants as it takes to keep the lights on.
Here is the Chinese policy statement press release. Full of vacuous waffle and irreconcilable contradictory aims. Not blaming them especially, all the other countries come up with the same sort of unrealistic and meaningless nonsense.
http://www.energychinaforum.com/news/68457.shtml
November 22nd, 2012 at 3:35 am
as well as all the people we live with.
November 22nd, 2012 at 3:59 am
Not sure if this has ever been the case before but yesterday we saw an azalea in bloom and I found one of my strawberries plants with strawberries on it. But it points out one of the points about climate change that the media seldom covers – uncertainty. Since the weather on a daily basis has always had some variation it is hard to say how much more variation we are having. But until we get really hot, increased departure from norms is the factor that will hit farmers the hardest. Last year I planted a month ahead of normal – how will I know this year what to do. I commit a few seeds of which I have extra – a farmer has to commit a bundle of increasingly expensive Monsanto seed.
Winter wheat is still struggling in parts of the US –
http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/News.aspx?ElementId=cb42cd8d-8ec2-48bb-836a-0e261c202086
“U.S. Winter-Wheat Crop Worsens as Dry Weather Curtails Growth Wednesday, 21 November 2012
The condition of the U.S. winter- wheat crop declined for the third straight week, the government said, as rains missed the driest regions of the Great Plains, slowing plant germination and curtailing growth.
An estimated 34 percent of winter crop, the most-common domestic variety, was rated good or excellent as of yesterday, down from 36 percent a week earlier, the U.S. Department of Agriculture said today in a report. About 24 percent was in poor or very poor condition. A year earlier, 50 percent got the top ratings and 16 percent was in the bottom two categories. “
November 22nd, 2012 at 4:21 am
dairymandave, I think you asked something about previous mass extinctions somewhere up the thread ?
Fwiw, there’s a TEDtalk here by Peter Ward, whom I gather does not see Earth as ‘self-regulating’, as in the Gaia/Lovelock sense, but rather as a drunk that falls around all over the place…
http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_ward_on_mass_extinctions.html
November 22nd, 2012 at 5:01 am
Coal, the dirtiest and most polluting of all the major fossil fuels, is making a comeback.
Despite stringent carbon emissions targets in Europe designed to slow global warming and massive investment in renewable energy in China, demand for this most ancient source of energy is greater than ever.
In fact, coal was the fastest growing form of energy in the world outside renewables last year, with production up 6% on 2010, twice the rate of increase of gas and more than four times that of oil. Consumption data paints a similar picture, while figures for this year are set to tell the same story.
There are a number of drivers behind coal’s renaissance, many of which may be short lived. Others will push demand ever higher for decades to come.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20002801
November 22nd, 2012 at 5:20 am
Progress towards an international agreement on tackling climate change has been painfully slow, dogged by fundamental disagreements between the countries involved and exacerbated by the financial crisis. Little is expected of the upcoming COP 18 meeting in Doha – so is it time to abandon the idea of a climate treaty altogether? Why not give up and focus on national and regional efforts to tackle climate change?
After all, negotiating a global deal is a slow, frustrating business. Not only is climate science constantly evolving, but the 194 countries that will meet in Doha often have diametrically opposed interests and points of view. Blocking progress is ridiculously easy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/21/global-climate-treaty
November 22nd, 2012 at 5:58 am
The last remnant of the Enlightenment’s belief in the reign of the Man of Reason is the faith people have in politics. All things can be remedied by policy changes.
Very true, but also by that same token, a reference to China’s five-year plan can not be posted as gospel. Once food and fuel become scarce enough, and it’s abundantly clear resources no longer are keeping pace with population demands, a tipping point of social unrest will most likely ensue. Strategic planners know this, and more than likely have a Plan B, C, D etc., etc. ready to implement when that time comes. That social unrest will more than likely be managed and directed, and the great unwashed will be trained against one another as the plutocrats watch the games safe and secure in their buttressed enclaves. China, the U.S., Russia and Europe will very likely experience what the former Yugoslavia experienced in the 1990′s. And all that is just phase one of the slide toward extinction. There will be no glory or satisfaction in saying “I told you so” at that point, if only because many of you who would say such a thing will be the first to be sacrificed.
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:04 am
There are some positive aspects of collapse that don’t get mentioned much. One such aspect is no more TED Talks. Hooray! Now there’s a prodigious collection of hypocrites. I bet TED Talks holds on for quite some time, though. Hundreds of millions will be dying of malnutrition and preventable diseases and the fine folks at TED will still be giving their talks with their bottled water, lattes, blue teeth and power points in hand. The talks must go on!
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:18 am
On Ulvfugi at 5:20 AM, I’ve been wondering how much carbon emissions were produced by the United States and China alone. I read somewhere that the two countries combined for about 40% of world carbon emissions, though my recollection is foggy.
Assuming I’m correct, wouldn’t a bilateral agreement between the U.S. and China be easier to conclude and implement, and potentially solve something short of half the problem? I would imagine that even unilateral efforts by other government would make a big dent.
Of course, the main reason these big international jamborees have been making no progress is the United States and China, but that really just restates that the key is focusing on the United States and China alone.
I’ve suspected all along that these events are a distraction at best, though my viewpoint started becoming moot when they started not even being able to produce agreements that everyone could go ahead and ignore.
Anyway, I didn’t read all the comments to the Guardian article, but one made a good response to the argument that the international community did succeed in banning CFCs; it was simply a different problem, with fewer oxes to be gored, and anyway the ozone hole is still there (I didn’t know that). I would also add that you had relatively more honest and competent types at the top in 1990 than you do today.
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:25 am
May everyone enjoy perhaps the last Thanksgiving before it’s all over:
http://music.reso-music.com/track/coronium
while you read:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/11/21/1228721/eight-ways-the-drought-is-influencing-thanksgiving/
Since this is only going to get (much) worse, and soon, my extrapolative sentence above.
One more song: http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=rusko+everyday+netsky+remix&tnr=21&vid=a85e1949e642b9a87223b3553546a5f7&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DU.4715707401306209%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fvideos%2Fwatch%2F%3Fq%3Drusko%2Beveryday%2Bnetsky%2Bremix%26vid%3D7BEB46833C381BF498537BEB46833C381BF49853%26docid%3D4715707401306209&sigr=143d0i5lk&newfp=1&tit=Rusko+-+Everyday+%28Netsky+Remix%29&back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Drusko%2Beveryday%2Bnetsky%2Bremix&sigb=12548323p
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:31 am
i forgot this Dredd Blog article at the end of which is a short video by NewScientist representing CO2 emissions in NY:
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2012/11/out-of-sight-out-of-mind.html
take a look
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:42 am
Ed, I can’t even begin to offer any answers, re China and USA… I don’t think there are any effective solutions, the whole thing will continue until it collapses….
Yes, what you say about the CFC thing is how I see it. Dow Chemicals were willing to cooperate, because they could see a new lucrative market for HFCs, whilst countries outside the agreement continued buying CFCs, and the ozone hole remains…
Yes, in those days there was still an element of good faith, nowadays it’s all kleptocracy.
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:42 am
Speaking of turkey (my wife just put one into the oven), do you folks know that a dairy cow needs about 35 lbs. of meat every day to stay healthy? Is this relavent to this group’s discussion? I thought Dr. Phil’s assistant would have fun with this.
Hint: a cow is a fermentation vat on legs, a minibiosphere that can collapse very easily if balance is not maintained. You and I can eat a bowl of cereal and do fine but an equivalent amount of cereal fed to a cow would kill her. A cow cannot digest hay any better than we do. They use “bugs” to grow their food anaerobically the same way we use plants to grow our food aerobically, which really is just stored sunshine. Same as oil. Bugs, blood, and meat all have nearly the same composition. The cow grows 35 lbs of bugs a day, protozoa and bacteria. That’s her food.
The cow’s system is balanced and fragile just like Earth’s. It needs to be respected. That’s not just a suggestion. I have seen what happens when it isn’t cared for properly.
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:53 am
Dairy cows are an abomination. Yet another example of humans gone wrong. If human respected the cow, they wouldn’t be domesticated and turned into an industrial process. A turkey on every plate on “thanksgiving” is also an abomination, whether that turkey be processed or wild.
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:47 am
Regardless of the hardships we have encountered in our lives, we in the first world have lived in the best of times – something to reflect upon on this Thanksgiving
However this article caught my eye this morning
“Next to our house in California where I grew up there was an overgrown garden with a rubber tree, bushy shrubs and a little worn dirt path that I’d crawl through, a small journey to a place far away from the urban environment that surrounded me. In this garden, I made discoveries about the world, which led me to make personal discoveries. I have never let those early experiences go and always make it a point to follow my curiosities to this day. A part of my childhood lives on in my films and photography. In Fukushima, curiosity requires a Geiger counter.”
rest at
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/newsmotion/the-children-of-fukushima_b_2166067.html
Who ever knew we would need to be thankful that as kids we could play in the dirt without worries. Today our world is still much more intact than that of others. We have today to enjoy – I plan to spend the day aware of all that is good in it.
November 22nd, 2012 at 9:28 am
dairymandave, we also couldn’t exist without the bugs in our guts. It’s called mutualism, bit like Kropotkin’s anarchist theorising drawing from natural systems that Orlov was writing about recently.
Interesting that we have three different human gut ecologies, and I think these date right back to primate ancestors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/science/21gut.html?_r=0
Rheas browse vegetation, but the foliage is a substrate for the bacteria in their gut to live on, which produces a sort of soup, which is what the bird needs. Without the right probiotic micro-organisms, they die.
We’ve co-evolved with cattle. I think that puts an obligation upon us to treat them decently. My neighbour has Old English Longhorn cattle. They have a fantastic life, pretty close to their wild ancestors, but without the wolves, and with veterinary care as necessary.
November 22nd, 2012 at 9:53 am
It’s 62 degrees F outside right now at 10:45 am here in N. Wisconsin right off Lake Superior. It should be in the 30′s. Folks are saying, “Isn’t this such nice weather we’re having?”
I was slow to understand the implications of climate change but thanks in a great part to Guy and others here who have shared knowledge and resources, I get it now. And it is a frightening thing to behold.
November 22nd, 2012 at 9:58 am
Veterinary care is an abomination. It’s a byproduct of domestication and is part of the reason we are facing extinction. Civilization lite is still civilization. To obligate to cattle is to contribute to the continual death and suffering rendered by “civilized” ways. If all species on earth is the concern, obligating to cattle is not in alignment with that goal despite weak rationalizations to the contrary. All those species that have died this year, and that will die this day, wish each and every one of you a happy thanksgiving. Without their involuntary sacrifice, your turkey day would not be possible. Now, back to what really matters; football.
November 22nd, 2012 at 10:16 am
Regardless of the hardships we have encountered in our lives, we in the first world have lived in the best of times – something to reflect upon on this Thanksgiving
It depends on what is considered “best of times.” Unhappiness is ubiquitous, and cancer and diabetes are epidemic. The book and movie Revolutionary Road captures the malaise that passes for “best of times.” It is an unacknowledged death, of sorts. The disassociation from our visceral, primal selves is so complete, the void so large, that what walks in its former place can only be described as shadows or ghosts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpra9OEw6nQ
November 22nd, 2012 at 10:31 am
Mulai lives in the vicinity of the forest, in a small hut, with his wife, two sons and a daughter. He makes money for a living by selling cow and buffalo milk. I suppose people such as Mulai are an inspiration to the entire world. If one man can build a forest, it’s amazing to think what we can achieve if we work together.
http://www.odditycentral.com/news/indian-man-single-handedly-plants-a-whole-forest.html
November 22nd, 2012 at 10:53 am
ulvfugl
Wonderful suggestion. This clown shall be dancing the Tarantella Siciliana as the world burns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOiOPtXSmpA&feature=related
November 22nd, 2012 at 11:35 am
Worst US drought in decades deepens to cover 60 percent of lower 48 states
http://www.heatisonline.org/contentserver/objecthandlers/index.cfm?ID=8360&Method=Full
November 22nd, 2012 at 3:36 pm
I’m re-reading the Foxfire books. The old folks interviewed there all speak about how hard life was for everyone in the old days of the 1890′s. How they had day after day of backbreaking labor to clear land. How they had to eat ash pones three meals a day, etc. They talk about their ancestors leaving Pennsylvania or Ireland or Germany and moving into the Appalachian mountains “after the government cleared out the Indians.”
OK, so let me get this straight. There were groups of people living in this area, growing some corn and eating deer and greens and roots, etc. and working maybe a few hours each day. Keeping the underbrush cleared out with fire. They were taller, healthier, and stronger than the settlers (See “1491″ by Thomas C. Mann) but they had no iron. So the pioneers lived a brutal life trying to re-create the life they left in Europe? They laboriously smelted iron and cast pots and pans and made rifles. Millions of acres of chestnut and oak were burned into charcoal to melt iron ore “They ain’t none o’ them left now.” They brought slaves from Africa to ease the burden of farming and industry on themselves.
And lo, they were miserable.
They had 8, 9, 10, 15 kids despite malnutition. Some died. Others ran away west to re-create exactly what they grew up with in still another place. They kept doing this until there was no more “place” to run.
And lo, they were fucked.
So here we are, standing at the end, wondering what happened. At least some of us are wondering. Most will continue running the Red Queen’s race until their children put them in nursing homes.
And lo, there are still 27 million outright slaves in the modern world right now living in unspeakable horror.
This must stop.
November 22nd, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Others ran away west to re-create exactly what they grew up with in still another place.
That’s the damn truth. They’re stubborn and they push on doing the wrong thing despite the odds, and yet somehow up to this point they’ve managed to stay one step ahead of complete annihilation. The local PBS station here recently aired The Dust Bowl, a documentary by Ken Burns. It shows just how indomitably stubborn these folk were. In the end, nothing was learned from the immense suffering. When the Ogallala Aquifer was discovered and tapped into, they embarked on the same disastrous journey that brought the Dust Bowl. They’ve bought some time, but it’s the same mistake. There will be another Dust Bowl that will put the one in the 1930′s to shame, but this time around, those stubborn Oakies will be no where to be found. That persevering character has dried up like the Ogallala is drying up, and there will be no alternative.
http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/dustbowl/
November 22nd, 2012 at 6:33 pm
While I enjoy reading the diversity of topics and takes on the threat of NTE at NBL, I must confess, I’m probably only a two trick pony. I have only two objectives in blogging on NBL, which is, coming to the best understanding I can in regards to the evidence and timing of NTE, and commiserating on the intellectual and emotional clusterfuck associated with the process of coming to acceptance of NTE.
Because of this, many of you might find my contribution to be predictable and repeatedly dour. So, I understand if many of you choose to scroll past my sometimes lengthy threads. We’re dancing around the heaviest psychological burden the human race has ever experienced, and I’m not going to shy away from attempting to define the core fear of that burden.
So, I as well just watched Ken Burn’s “The Dust Bowl”, which was an incredibly surreal experience, which left me in a near state of dread the whole time. Aside from the fact that my grandparents were “Okies”, the parallels between now and then were so indescribably numerous, it was like watching our future being played out eighty years ago. But after a few days of mulling it over, the one thing that I can’t seem to shake, other than some of the devastating prescient commentary, is that this next time around, “we” haven’t the luxury of not knowing what’s coming. And that differentiation is going to make all the difference in the coming years.
For about the last twelve years, I’ve ended all my correspondences with Gramsci’s “pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will”, for IMO, it perfectly represented my state of mind. But recently, I’ve let it go, given my intellectual pessimism has pretty much completely hollowed out my Will. Not my Will to live, for I very much love life, especially the non-human life of earth, but the Will to participate in society, the Will to be a citizen in an inescapably culpable existence. Frankly, my Will left me years ago, and I’ve been running on the fumes of my past conviction ever since. For me it was Semiletov’s discovery of methane hydrates that finally reached down, and ripped out what little Will and humanity I had left.
I have also written repeatedly over the years, that we don’t need hope to persevere in life, but that the quest for truth was enough to base a life on. Unearthing the ugliest truth about ourselves, has been my moral imperative for my entire adult life, but something has seriously changed over the last few years. It seems that truth, itself, has turned against us seekers. Whatever promise there might have been, in attempting to get to the bottom of the truth, has simply dried up like Kansas farmland. All the doubt and skepticism one can muster, even contrive for that matter, can’t seem to override what we now know to be true, which is that we don’t have a future, or that the future we believe we have, will only become increasingly less likely.
We are, more or less, living in a state of impending extinction, still imagining this latest round of dire evidence to somehow be similar to all the other horrific information we’ve been compartmentalizing for decades.
But it’s not. NTE is utterly unprecedented, even in a sea of unprecedence.
We’re no longer at an intellectual distance that allows us to grapple with whatever stares back out of the abyss, but rather, every aspect of our existence is slowly being consumed by the abyss (NTE).
The relentless internal and external conflicts that consume the lives of anyone who has chosen a similar path, has found only insoluble unprecedence at every turn. Wherein, being intellectually trapped by the overwhelming evidence that has made acceptance and defeatism nearly inseparable, and where we are but left to individually wrestle with the subtle distinctions between what it means to be completely heartbroken, and just finally fall apart.
So, I’m going to make a statement that will probably offend many here, which is, come the advent of NTE, or even the first global catastrophic round of it, I suspect, that those of us who fully well know the subsequent precession of catastrophes to follow, that for many of us, we will be the first to check out. That aside from all the trolls conflating any discussion about NTE as being some kind of “suicide cult”, deep down in the recesses of the recognition we’ve yet to acknowledge, we know there’s some truth to it.
If we accept the reality of NTE, then we are accepting our lives will eventually come to an end, through only one of three ways; predation, starvation or suicide. And assuming that few of us are hopefully not imagining killing others so as only to live a little longer, it comes down to starvation or suicide. This is what we’re accepting when we accept NTE. No other way around it.
We are all of at least two minds now. Our newest consciousness, not the one that’s still entrenched in the endless habitualness of past behavior, but this nascent realization is almost wholly centered around the evidence that we must soon, start preparing ourselves for some kind of untimely death.
Sitting in front of our computers, engaging in discussions about NTE, has absolutely nothing to do with how we’re actually going to live through it. We’re still in many ways, exalting the existential aspects, while minimizing the logistical nightmare of starvation directly ahead. We’re able to do this, simply because we’ve yet been physically impacted. But once we are, this forum is over. We are communicating through a narrow window of time, as if we’re in some way, in the beginning stages of drafting a living will. It seems to me, it’s as if we’re collectively postponing final acceptance that there isn’t anything left to say, because we all still have so much to share, given this dire acceptance is fucking nearly impossible to live with.
As I see things today, and this can and will obviously change over time, but as things now stand, I see only three basic choices before those of us who are staring into the abyss. The first, is to deny the severity of the evidence of NTE, and imagine a litany of other scenarios playing out, such as geo-engineering somehow saving the day, and postponing extinction for few more generations. This is what I believe many of us, are still attempting to hold onto, given the dire ultimatums that await us once we’ve accepted NTE. The other two choices come in once we have accepted it, and where both, are almost impossible to effectively articulate , given both the objective and subjective unprecedence of the dilemma, and where the nature of accepting NTE, basically defies the act of acceptance itself.
Intellectually, the threat of NTE, makes “collapse” seem like Pollyanna’s play ground. Most everyone in my life, already considers me to be a wackadoodle extremist. But given the look in the eyes of the few people I have attempted to conversed with about NTE, honestly, I can’t see any point. I can barely maintain my own internal dialog. It’s simply impossible to talk about the threat of NTE with anyone, who isn’t already very close to accepting it themselves. Even my partner, who has been through the ringer in regards to collapse over the last seven years, just thinks I’ve given up, and am just now drowning in a sea of depression. And the truth is, I guess I am. For what’s the difference between “letting go” and “giving up”? Once we’ve allowed NTE to run its menacing course through our psyche, what else is left, other than relentless anxiety or quite resignation, which are the other two choices.
So, am I correct in seeing only these three options: Denial/deferred acceptance, inconsolable anxiety or quite resignation?
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:31 pm
Daniel Says: So, am I correct in seeing only these three options: Denial/deferred acceptance, inconsolable anxiety or quite resignation?
Daniel: Why not a Kubler-Ross kind of acceptance?
November 22nd, 2012 at 7:44 pm
Daniel, Guy’s argument that climate change will cause human extinction by 2031 is a big outlier. The disturbing thing is that the idea that climate change will cause human extinction this century actually does seem to be included in the range of predictions made by mainstream climate scientists. Guy McPherson seems more certain than most and has an earlier date.
Now, if I understand Guy’s argument correctly, its made up of three parts:
1. Climate change will cause global temperatures to rise beyond the 2 degrees centigrade which various international treaties try to limit it to.
2. This will be enough to trigger various positive feedback mechanisms that will quickly take average global temperatures to a 6 degrees centigrade increase.
3. Humans can not survive a 6 degree centigrade increase.
Actually, each of these three postulates by themselves probably fall within the consensus of climate scientists, except for maybe #2. So what Guy has done is to combine them into one doomsday scenario. But all three have to turn out has he says to produce human extinction. I do agree that if there are strong positive feedback mechanisms, they will kick in quickly once the required thresholds are reached.
Since humans have not lived on Earth before when it heated up this quickly (the planet has had wide ranges of temperature fluctuations in the past, but not in the six thousand or so years of recorded human history), all of this is necessarily speculative.
So any of the three postulates could be incorrect, though each seems reasonable based on the evidence when taken in isolation.
1. The climate change deniers could turn out to be correct. The controversy could turn out to be an alarm caused by bad data (I have a denialist friend, so I understand this is the current argument of the day).
2. The positive feedback mechanisms don’t work as predicted, or there turn out to be powerful but unpredictable negative feedback mechanisms.
3. The Earth could heat up by 6 degrees celsius and people could love it! Who knows? We haven’t tried this before.
Honesty, I don’t think that #1 or #3 are that likely, but given the chaotic nature of systems, #2 could well happen.
It would be or would have been better, as a precaution, to not try the whole experiment and to just have gone ahead and limited industrial production, plus curb the worldwide birthrate (which is already declining on its own, just not fast enough). Even a low chance of causing the human race to go extinct is not something to fool around with.
For individuals, there is really no way to act on this except to be really depressed at the moment. The whole thing is too speculative and the timing too uncertain. Wait and see what happens. I tend to agree with Kathy C. that this is no time to rush out and have a big family at the moment (and for her detractors, when do you urge people to limit the size of their families, if you are not going to do it when world population went from 3.5 billion to 7 billion in fifty years?).
I’m really hoping that in twenty years, websites like this are held up in the future as evidence that people went a little crazy over the 2012 apocalyptic prophesies, during tough times.
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:12 pm
FWIW
For ecstatic faith-based splendor,
Mind in an altered state blender,
Mood transcendental,
Or big change that’s mental:
Some claim one first needs to surrender.
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Benjamin the Donkey
It’s the final stage of K/R that interests me the most, because it’s the “acceptance of NTE” that triggers a whole other round of grieving.
I think many of us have worked through all, or many of the stages, just to get to a place where we accepted the catastrophic fallout from the collapse of civilization, especially concerning homesteading. But this sort of grieving in regards to the death of civilization, didn’t include the fairly recent evidence of possible NTE. The evidence of non-linear rates of change–which the whole premise of NTE is based–has been circulating in the public domain for only a couple of years. And given our awareness has only been recently achieved in hindsight, we are only now, coming to the acceptance of NTE.
So, maybe you’re correct in that we’re now finding ourselves having to work through all the stages yet again. And given, I’m not in denial, nor am I angry, and I have long given up on us being able to bargain our way out of this (geo-engineering notwithstanding), I guess I’m stuck knee deep in the depressing morass of all my greatest fears coming true. And where acceptance this time around, is not grieving for the death of just some of life (die-back), but acceptance comes in the form of anticipation of our own imminent death. In other words, acceptance is that we’re all on death row, and we’ve some terribly difficult decisions to ponder before that times arrives.
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Ed
Not exactly clear on your angle, because of this statement: “I’m really hoping that in twenty years, websites like this are held up in the future as evidence that people went a little crazy over the 2012 apocalyptic prophesies, during tough times”.
Seems to me you’re connoting religious end time prophesies, with empirical evidence of non-linear rates of change…………..?
November 22nd, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Stage 1 means you’ve hardly begun,
Stage 2, you might think of a gun,
Stage 3, with its stress,
Fantasizes success,
But Stage 4 is somewhat less fun.
November 22nd, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Daniel
I fully appreciate how hard it is to adjust to NTE, who can?
However, it is not a novel process, as ‘Bhuddist Initiation 101′ is the exploration of death as a real possibility moment to moment. That is a traditional stating point to contemplate a (future) lifetime of undoubtedly arduous renunciate practice.
I presume that in that tradition, it has been viewed as essential to get this aspect of embodied existance in correct perspective from the get-go. Otherwise practice is likely to be based on many illusions of all kinds.
So death of this bodily form is one thing to understand, but the extinction of the entire living Earth Sysyem and all the creatures and forms of life on it, in it, above it, and under it is perhaps no different in kind, just in finality. To a Bhuddist, the prospect of no further vehicles for reincarnation should cause some alarm, if nothing else it would force one to get more urgent the call to strengthen practice, and self-realise in this , only lifetime left.
We will only know how it feels when we begin to witness the rapid devastation and loss of life, human and the rest.
IMO those with a greater awareness of these matters have seen that extinction commence many moons ago.
BTW, a story on ABC Lateline last night about the prospect of ‘geoengineering’, readying the Australian population for the desparate endgame soon to be enacted I suppose.
‘One of the world’s leading geo-engineering proponents, Harvard Professor David Keith’
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3639096.htm
A short extract:
” …TONY JONES: Let’s talk about the risks of actually doing it on a global scale because you’ve been pretty frank about that. You’ve actually said you could easily imagine a chain of events that would extinguish life on Earth. Now what would be that potential chain of events from using this kind of technology?
DAVID KEITH: Yes, I probably got quoted a little out of context there. I think there are sort of theoretically possible ways that could happen, but I don’t think there’s socially plausible way it could happen. So, you might in principle be able to put up enough reflective aerosols – probably not sulphates, actually; I think it won’t work with sulphates – but some other engineered aerosol.
And if you did that for 100 years and reflected away sort of 8 per cent of the sunlight, whereas the amount people are talking about doing is more like 1 per cent, then in principle you could actually freeze the oceans over, as happened some good chunk of a billion years ago, and that would be devastating. But I think that the chance of people doing that would sort of be a global suicide is so remote as not to be a serious worry.
I think the reason I’ve occasionally said that is that it illustrates the kind of power that this technology grants us. And I think for better, for worse, what this technology gives us is this enormous kind of leverage and power to alter the climate and to do it with a very small amount of money or material and that power should frighten us, I think, and it presents real deep problems for governance.
So unlike the problem of CO2 emissions, which is changing the climate, but which is a product of human actions all over the planet. Every individual person flying or driving a car or using electricity around the planet contributes to carbon dioxide.
If you talk about putting sulphates or some other engineered particle in the stratosphere, the issue is that a very small number of people in principle could do it and have this kind of huge leverage to affect the whole climate in this profound way. And that’s what raises the very hard challenge of governance….”
If you dont read the extract or listen to the interview, it is best to bare in mind that the extinction concept DAVID KEITH is referring to is one triggered by the use of geoengineering, not the climate change that seemed to necessitate such geoengineering measures.
Quite a chasm to what Guy is hypothesising, however, it is putting that seed of the idea of NTE into peoples minds, even if it is through that alternative pathway.
Interesting…
!!!
November 22nd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
Daniel, I appreciate so much what you are saying.
You wrote, what’s the difference between “letting go” and “giving up”? I’ve been thinking about this a lot as well. It seems we are entering an area of terrible paradox. It isn’t going to satisfy the linear, analytical parts of ourselves.
I came across a quote today that I found especially compelling: “…salvation and sanity consist in the most radical recognition that we have no way of saving ourselves.” (For a non-religious person, I’ve been dwelling a lot on the idea of redemption lately.) What is this blatantly contradictory statement and why does it strike me as necessary?
At the risk of being called reckless or a wackadoodle, I think that this occupation of abyss-staring and immersion in all the terrifying, depressing feelings and thoughts that accompany it is the only path forward into some sort of redemption. I don’t doubt that it will lead some to suicide, individually. But I wonder what difference it makes since it appears we’re in a huge, culture-wide suicide/homicide pact whether we agreed to it or not. I think it’s a good idea to internalize that we are all well and truly fucked and see what happens to our priorities. Or maybe I’ve gone off the deep end; maybe I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about.
You wrote So, am I correct in seeing only these three options: Denial/deferred acceptance, inconsolable anxiety or quite resignation? Why not all three at the same time, with a good dose of unexplainable ecstasy at being alive at any given moment? I don’t say it lightly.
November 22nd, 2012 at 11:54 pm
BC Nurse Prof : And lo, there are still 27 million outright slaves in the modern world right now living in unspeakable horror.
Away from your main point… not sure where you’re finding that figure, but surely it must be very much higher, if you include people who are paid barely enough to live on, to do work that they’d prefer not to do, because they’ll starve and die if they don’t do it…
I suppose there’s a gradation up to the fortunate ones who earn a living doing something they love doing, even that they’d pay to be able to do… but there’s prison workers in China and USA and factory workers in very many countries, hardly distinguishable from slavery… and now, with modern surveillance technology, everyone, nominally ‘free’, can be tracked constantly throughout their lives…
Ever read Margaret Atwood’s Handmaid’s Tale ?
Saudi Arabia implements electronic tracking system for women
November 23rd, 2012 at 12:01 am
@ Ed 1. The climate change deniers could turn out to be correct. The controversy could turn out to be an alarm caused by bad data (I have a denialist friend, so I understand this is the current argument of the day).
2. The positive feedback mechanisms don’t work as predicted, or there turn out to be powerful but unpredictable negative feedback mechanisms.
3. The Earth could heat up by 6 degrees celsius and people could love it! Who knows? We haven’t tried this before.
It’s the SCIENCE, Ed. Fanciful wishful thinking won’t do.
http://oilprice.com/The-Environment/Global-Warming/Contrary-to-Popular-Belief-Scientists-are-United-on-Climate-Change.html
November 23rd, 2012 at 12:45 am
There has been terms like ‘the best of times’ and also ’27 million outright slaves world-wide’ written here recently…
Many will be sufficiently aware that the affluent-over-developed-world has had ‘those best of times’ on the suffereng, disese and early deaths of those in the never-now-to-develop-world, and on the continual, and irreversable destruction, pollution and waste of the biosphere.
I have big problems reconciling this life of relative luxury afforded me as born into an essentially well developed and wealthy nation, having gone on that unidirectional journey of wanting to know the truth, to discover all we have in these powerful industrial nations is derived from the knowing exploitation and ecocide of others and the natural world.
How can it be reconciled?
The only sane homoly I have thus far arrived at is an echo of what Adi Da Samraj calls all who wish to progress and grow spiritually –
Use your advantage.
“Use your advantage…”
‘Adi Da Samraj: Use Your Advantage’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KJ-vxYJ4os
‘Adi Da Samraj: You haven’t a leg to stand on! (If you try to do Spiritual Life as Ego)’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvigp8lzvs
‘Adi Da Samraj: Use the Internet!’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiUWVYhUb_w
‘Adi Da Samraj: Summarizes the Way + The Internet is the Way to Me” ‘
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=0uyehxkPBLA&feature=endscreen
‘ADI DA SAMRAJ: the truth of our existence 1/3′
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb7vjRv-TSA&feature=related
I hope my paraphrasing is true to its original meaning, and I am certain HE is speaking about ‘right use’ not exploitation, and the ‘advantage’ is, for better or worse, the degree of individual freedom afforded by say modern ‘democracy’, and the institutions of the apex of Empire, like libraries, the internet, etc, (baring in mind the entrenched corruption of present ‘democracies’ of course).
Barring that, ‘mindfulness’ of all that it takes to have that BLT roll, cup of decaff, or electric light at nighttime, or even that chilled champers some enjoy, not to mention the basics, (no these are not the basics), is some help at present.
Admitting there is a problem still seems to be the truism that still rings true with most discussed here.
It is difficult to catch the attention of screen-o-philes, however, and put the view that their particular fixation and adapation to living via a screen is on with a very short halflife, and the subsequent readjustment is going to be even more difficult when they have not the neurological pathways to even look at the world in full widescreen vision, like real eyes were evolved to do.
Could be a close approximation of a hybrid of:
“The Day of the Triffids” and “The Admirable Crichton”.
Those who can be, will be.
November 23rd, 2012 at 1:09 am
@ Daniel NTE is utterly unprecedented, even in a sea of unprecedence.
And the rest.
Thank you for the power and clarity of your statement. I’m grateful that we still have time to talk about this stuff in relatively calm and measured terms, because as the gist of what you are saying penetrates the mainstream there’s going to be a heck lot of freaked out people….
For me, the staring into the Abyss, is Bodhidharma’s nine years facing the blank white wall. It’s THE question.
What am I ? What is all this ? Why is it ?
Yes, this can be answered intellectually, in terms of theoretical knowledge, that we are people, biological creatures, primates on a planet. Something terrible is unfolding.
But I’m talking about going beyond all concepts of self and beyond all structured intellectual knowledge, beyond everything that is culturally received and conditioned.
It’s not something that can be conveyed in words or language. It’s something that was truth long before there were humans, and remains truth long after humans have all vanished. Nobody analysing, nothing to analyse. No concepts, no ideas.
What happens when Self and Abyss unite, become indistinguishable ?
Just. This.
It can’t be spoken of.
I can say ‘nameless, eternal, infinite, void….’ but already that’s not really the truth, is it.
This answer may be of no use to anyone else, because I have spent decades of zazen, rewiring my brain, exploring subtle body, what lies beyond ego, most of which makes no sense at all to people who have no idea what I’m talking about, so I can’t help them.
There’s no need to call upon your ending to arrive sooner, death is inevitable, it’ll arrive when the time is right. Savour the precious moment that will never return, fill it with bliss, the exquisite pleasure of the clock ticking, power, magic, beauty, the whole Universe is yours, is YOU, just for a brief time, so you can know, and be grateful, because you saw something, not nothing… Let ego die now. There it is. All around you. You can’t avoid it. You are everything.
What is it ? Fathomless mystery… Infinite bliss, between one breath and another, birth, being, death… dust dancing in a sunbeam…
November 23rd, 2012 at 1:16 am
I just can’t resist:
‘ADI DA SAMRAJ: the truth of our existence 2/3′
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqnltf9Z6Y&feature=endscreen&NR=1
‘ADI DA SAMRAJ: the truth of our existence 3/3′
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YFLHA4aluw&NR=1&feature=endscreen
It’s pretty clear to me,
so I put it here.
November 23rd, 2012 at 1:19 am
ulvfugl
I hear you, and feel.
!!!
November 23rd, 2012 at 1:42 am
Vibhu, it’s not the cow’s fault. Dairy farming is the abomination; man does that. If every family on earth had its own cow, or goat, this world would be a better place. All the mischief done by the non-farmers would not have happened. My cows are my best friends. My daughter wants to have her own cow.
November 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 am
Three testamonials and mine.
ulvfugl
I became aware for the first time of Avatara Adi Da in a dream.
It was several years later that I read his autobiography, “The Knee of Listening”, and some time later again that I recognised him from pictures later in his teaching life where he was bald, as he was in the original dream, (others followed later).
‘Adi Da Samraj Tribute : Rachel Kuhn growing up with Adi Da’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARGDIa3unYQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen
‘Adi Da Samraj Tribute : Crane Kirkbride singing with Adi Da’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiUZc-8QFAY&feature=relmfu
‘Adi Da Samraj: Cheech’s Story’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpVjRM4Cvto&feature=related
It is self evident to me that Science and all the public state education I ever recieved cannot hope to explain the reality of that dream and the fact that it preceded my encountering a Spiritual Master of the highest order.
In fact it brings to the forfont of attention that that same Science and education are vastly inadequate to do so.
As Adi DA Samraj revels, this is a psycho-physical domain, and please
forgive me for having some ‘reasonable’ reservations about this faith in the Science stuff. Science is not worthless, I sincerely don’t mean that, but it needs to have a better perspective on it than it presently has in world culture.
My heart goes out to you ulvfugl, that heart-need you express is real and I can only point the way I have authenticated in my own life.
With great respect.
OzMan.
November 23rd, 2012 at 3:09 am
Ed, you wrote “The disturbing thing is that the idea that climate change will cause human extinction this century actually does seem to be included in the range of predictions made by mainstream climate scientists”
In case you haven’t noticed the climate change deniers claims keep being proven wrong – for instance by selecting a certain time frame they tried to make the claim that it was actually cooling. I haven’t heard that claim repeated this year.
In case you haven’t noticed the mainstream climate scientists keep being surprised that things are moving faster than they thought. As in “Dramatic and unprecedented plumes of methane – a greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide – have been seen bubbling to the surface of the Arctic Ocean by scientists undertaking an extensive survey of the region.
The scale and volume of the methane release has astonished the head of the Russian research team who has been surveying the seabed of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf off northern Russia for nearly 20 years.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/vast-methane-plumes-seen-in-arctic-ocean-as-sea-ice-retreats-6276278.html Likewise the amount of sea ice lost this year was described as “astonishing”
I think even some of the most pessimistic climate scientists were surprised. Conclusion, its going to get worse faster than anyone expected.
November 23rd, 2012 at 3:09 am
As usual BtD you hit the nail on the head with the stages limerick.
November 23rd, 2012 at 3:20 am
New book:
Radical Honesty by Brad Blanton
The mind is a jail built out of bullshit. This book tells how the bullshit jail of the mind gets built and how to escape. This is a ‘how-to’ book on freedom.
Taking responsibility means a person no longer blames outside circumstances, or other people, or past events for the conditions of his own life. Therapy is over when a person stops incessantly demanding that other people be different from what they are, forgives his or her parents and other begrudged former intimates, re-claims the power to make life work, and takes responsibility for doing so.
Because of being lost in our minds, we fail to recognize that the truth changes. When the truth changes and we fail to recognize what has now become true, while holding on the idea of what used to be true, we become liars committing suicide. People who live according to principles, like, ‘I hated you then, and for good reason, so I still hate you now,’ can’t get over things. This is reasonable but stupid. I have seen a lot of reasonably stupid people in my life.
Life goes on and the truth changes; this just happens to be the way life is. Yesterday’s truth is today’s bullshit. People choke the life out of themselves by tying themselves to a chosen ‘self-image’—any self image whatsoever.
Bullshit is a highly technical term used throughout this book. I stole this term from Fritz Perls, the father of Gestalt Therapy. Bullshit is any abstraction from experience your mind makes and assigns value to. It is a sales pitch for an interpretation of reality. All interpretations of reality are bullshit. Freedom is not being dominated by your own bullshit.
We believe our interpretations of reality intensely, and we want other people to join us in our interpretations of make us feel secure. We believe our interpretations are reality and if we can get enough votes we will prove it.
A few of us occasionally escape the bullshit jail of the mind. Most of us die in jail.
We are all the walking wounded. Most of us are still interested in clarity and truth, but as the same time we are interested in making a case for how our childhood was worse than average and how we’re better than everyone else. The conventional way to suffer through life is to build a case for ourselves….Being interested in this common human project of discovery is an important part of the great conversation in which we humans have been engaged for several thousand years. For my own good, I want to hang out with people who want to find out what it would be like to live in such a way as to leave no unspoken words, no unfinished business; I want to be with people who are hungry for the truth, who want to spend time learning and sharing what they have learned rather than defending their images or reputations.
Perpetual arguing to convince others of the rightness of your case doesn’t work worth a damn in personal relationships, and we all know it but can’t seem to stop. Managing the disease of moralism is done by telling the truth. I have this disease. How can I use it rather than be used by it? How can I not just manage my critical, self-judgmental, mean-to-those-closest to me self, but use to be happy, productive and alive? My clients and I have been having success managing moralism by telling the truth.
The second level of telling the truth is to begin to speak forth the emotional truth and the truth of one’s judgments—to reveal one’s constantly active, secret mind. You begin here the practice of admitting how you feel when you feel it, speaking your secret judgments of others out loud, and constantly revealing your own petty and condescending ways. The second level of telling the truth, revealing the emotional and judgemental truth on a moment-by-moment basis, is damned hard work and it never ends. I cannot decide to love or trust, but I can decide to be personally honest or not. And when I choose to be really honest and say what I experience and what I feel, I am showing that I can be trusted.
Once you decide to live that way, you have to continue to work away at it, because the most important thing to know about the truth is that it changes. You can be really mad at someone and hurt by him or her and stay stuck there. Or you can tell them and express it out loud and what was true a moment ago becomes no longer true.
The central message of this book is that we human beings, in the course of growing up, get lost in our minds; and if we don’t find our way out, our minds eventually kill us.
Joy and expressions of love are the primary repressed emotions and actions.
[end quote]
However, basic science truth doesn’t change; ice still melts at 32F. “And that’s the truth”.
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:31 am
Stage 4 is not less fun, it can be highly liberating. The process is complete, and mentally and emotionally one has come through the other side in tack. It’s obvious with all the lamenting that goes on here that the majority are not at Stage 4. There’s nothing “quiet” about these collective comments. It’s a bunch of ravens screeching in unison “we’re going to die, we’re going to die.” If acceptance has been reached, there’s no longer any need to waste energy on it, thus freeing up time and energy to enjoy whatever happiness remains in life. Of course, if there isn’t happiness to be found in life for some, then it could explain the screeching validations.
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:37 am
Vibhu, it’s not the cow’s fault. Dairy farming is the abomination; man does that. If every family on earth had its own cow, or goat, this world would be a better place. All the mischief done by the non-farmers would not have happened. My cows are my best friends. My daughter wants to have her own cow.
As we approach 8 billion people, that’s a lot of cows and goats. I’m thinking that’s not in harmony with nature. Nice idea but it’s not scalable. In fact scalable is part of the problem.
November 23rd, 2012 at 4:44 am
The second level of telling the truth is to begin to speak forth the emotional truth and the truth of one’s judgments—to reveal one’s constantly active, secret mind. You begin here the practice of admitting how you feel when you feel it, speaking your secret judgments of others out loud, and constantly revealing your own petty and condescending ways. The second level of telling the truth, revealing the emotional and judgemental truth on a moment-by-moment basis, is damned hard work and it never ends.
Chappelle calls this “keeping it real.” It can have unintended consequences and go very wrong.
http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/67hgjb/chappelle-s-show-when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong—brenda-johnson
November 23rd, 2012 at 6:23 am
Daniel, why would facing the extinction of humans be any more traumatic than facing your own personal death. Once you are dead you will not know if others live on. I think the answer is that even when we accept our own death we think somehow some of us lives on in our genes and in memories people hold of us, or perhaps in physical objects we have made – books written, pictures painted etc. I think when anyone accepts their own death it is partial because they hold on to these things that last after them as an extension of life or a sort of immortality.
And we crave that it all have meaning and that is hard to hold on to if humans go extinct.
November 23rd, 2012 at 6:26 am
Kathy, thanks!
Vibhu, excellent point about “liberation,” but traditionally that would come with Stage 5 (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). AFAIK, Kubler-Ross (and others) didn’t focus on the concept of liberation, but instead described the end of hope, and “decathexis” at the end. As a number of people have reported in the blogs and forums, it’s not a straightforward once-through process; we seem to go back and forth, repeating stages and progressively dealing more fully IRL.
Letting go, giving up, losing control, surrender: semantics not worth distinguishing for our purposes. MHO.
November 23rd, 2012 at 6:52 am
BTD, you are correct. I forgot there were five stages. The fifth stage would provide liberation, if that was a goal. Although, like any theory such as this, it’s really not an adequate description of any process, or processes. It’s somewhat instructional and stimulates thought, but it’s far from foolproof, and yet another futile attempt to define that which cannot be defined.
By the way, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross was a bit of a fruitcake. She had some wacky beliefs. As wacky as the Evangelicals.
http://www.seancasteel.com/Kubler-Ross.htm
But she was right on with this one:
Kubler-Ross: I don’t have the energy to expound. There’s no such thing as “love” on Earth. Most people don’t know what love is. It’s “I’ll love you if, if, if . . .”
That’s not love. And that’s all I can say for right now.
November 23rd, 2012 at 7:00 am
Vibhu, If everyone HAD a cow we wouldn’t have 8 billion of us. We wouldn’t have fooled around drilling for oil with all the associated consequences, namely 8 billion people and capitalism. We would have been too busy shoveling shit.
November 23rd, 2012 at 7:12 am
Vibhu, IMHO, despite shortcomings, K-R is the best single description for dealing with doom in psychological terms, along with only a few other words like cognitive dissonance, projection, etc.
True, she seems to have kind of lost it at the end, but at least for some period after her book, I can verify first hand that she presented as intact and rigorous in her thinking as any other standard academic.
November 23rd, 2012 at 7:16 am
I’ve posted anew, with an embedded presentations and two essays. The post is here.
November 23rd, 2012 at 7:53 am
Daniel,
I enjoy your long posts. I think we are sort of in the same place.
While I’m still gonna plunge ahead on our Kentucky homestead (and not so much because it will “save us” but because I want to live my remaining days closer to nature, giving something back to the earth), I’m also going to spend time either identifying all of the poisonous plants that I can use to off myself when the time comes or planting them myself.
dairymandave, you crack me up. I agree, if we spent more time shoveling shit, perhaps the earth would be in better shape.
Kathy C, bingo. As a childless woman, I’ve certainly spent some time wishing for the genes or something of me to go on. So maybe I’m a little ahead of that particular game. Once I’m done, I’m done.
November 23rd, 2012 at 8:59 am
Copper…
The proposed Pebble Mine in Alaska would tap a deposit of up to 80 billion pounds of copper, making it one of the largest copper mines on Earth. But this proposed mine would be 14 miles from Lake Iliamna, the world’s largest natural incubator of sockeye salmon. As many as 40 million sockeye salmon enter Bristol Bay every summer, producing an estimated 12,000 jobs, worth around $600 million a year. The fishery feeds tens of thousands of Alaskan natives and millions of people around the globe. In the next few months the EPA will release a final report regarding their scientific analysis of the proposed mine. If the early EPA draft is any indicator, it will clearly state that even without a mining disaster, Pebble Mine will destroy up to 87 miles of salmon streams and 4,300 acres of salmon wetlands. In layman’s terms, the mine would mean the utter destruction of the fishery. No amount of copper is worth that risk.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-carter/the-hidden-costs-of-going_b_2019832.html
November 23rd, 2012 at 8:59 am
The Buddhas of Mes Aynak is the story of a race against time. This documentary follows an international team of archaeologists as they fight to save a 2,600-year-old Buddhist city in volatile Logar province, Afghanistan. Led by Philippe Marquis of DAFA, the French Archaeological Delegation in Afghanistan, the specialists attempt to document the ancient Buddhist city of Mes Aynak before its imminent destruction in December 2012. The location, called one of the most important archaeological discoveries in Asia, will be demolished by a Chinese government-owned mining company (MCC). MCC will exploit the location for over 100 billion dollars worth of copper located directly beneath the Buddhist temples.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/472409280/the-buddhas-of-mes-aynak
December 16th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
As Woody Allen once observed, “We stand today at a crossroads: One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other leads to total extinction. Let us hope we have the wisdom to make the right choice.”
Clearly we have chosen the path to extinction.