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Conspiring for climate chaos

Tue, Jan 15, 2013

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I was interviewed by Rob Daven at Conspiracy HQ a few days ago. The video failed, but the audio worked and is embedded at this link. The interview with me begins at 17:15.

The topic: climate chaos.

The approach: address the standard “denier” issues.

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287 Responses to “Conspiring for climate chaos”

  1. Privileged Says:

    Off topic…just fuckin with ya. Next post should take care of that.

  2. Bailey Says:

    The podcast keeps stopping with me. I have to keep reloading the page and setting the dial to the last time mark etc.

  3. OzMan Says:

    This is a worthwhile interview, it ranges into how we humans have difficulty with accepting any changes from IMO World-Scale-Adolescent- Attitudes-Towards-What-Keeps-Me-Alive.

    Conversations that are long enough and wide ranging are the best way to get the message across IMO.

    I am disposed towards surviving, just call me selfish, but no need to exit before term,IMO…

    So, I have come to a similar conclusion of what is optimal to ‘do’ with my time and energy before the turbulence hits where I am.

    That action consists of:

    1. Re-initiate the human Gift Community
    A first community project is to establish a gift community garden, and share everything. This is for me a research and teaching about shared effort and giving, through demonstrating what grows well in a local area, and that will rapidly change from season to season, year to year, due to catastrophic climate changes. Some locations will be abandoned, but some will be viable, and I believe the one I am in is viable. I will be inviting 4 well established local organic gardeners, some who have community garden experience, others are already supplying local restraunts and cafes with their produce, to help me develop gardens of their systems, or approaches, and work with what grows well. Over time this will be a valuable collective experience that demonstrates what grows in this location, and how the gift community can supply the needs of a community that presently most think can only come from centralised big fossil fueled subsidised corporations etc. Seeds will be kept and distributed for anyone to grow their own food.
    2. Emphasise the local systems and connections both economic and interactive, and social in all aspects of work and leisure, family and friends.
    3. Engage with people as complete equals, not accepting any attempt at superiority, or inferiority. Humans will only keep surviving not only if they can physically survive, however they adapt and behave differently, e.g. live underground etc.,but only if they achieve social equality and drop all the hierarchic ‘I represent your interests’ blow. Everyone can contribute something, and inclusion will be the main thing.
    4. Develop direct agreements with individuals about community action. This translates into just keeping one’s word when agreeing to do something. Avoiding committee meetings, is my intention. In line with the modern activists credo, ‘You do it and others will come’, I will do stuff, and make agreements with others to help, or support those actions.
    5. Start today!!!if not already.

    As guy says,

    Water, Food, Thermo-regulation, and Decent Human Community.

    Something tells me the last one on the list is definitely going to be the hardest to accomplish.

    No illusions about the difficulty factors for survival

  4. Robin Datta Says:

    For those who have difficulty with the podcast here is the link to mp3 file for playing or downloading

  5. Robin Datta Says:

    Perhaps the commentary section at Nature Bats Last is (one of the few) / (the only) place for Conversations Understanding Near Term Extinction. The ultimate in what some might disparagingly classify as Doomer Porn!

    But for those tired of euphemisms, understatements and downplaying, this is the place to mainline an uncut fix.

  6. Tom Says:

    Just another in a long series of evidence that the oceans are dying:

    http://www.wltx.com/news/article/216791/2/Thousands-of-Dead-Fish-Wash-Up-On-Pawleys-Island-

    PAWLEYS ISLAND, SC (WLTX) –There is a mystery along the South Carolina coast.

    Thousands of dead fish washed up on the beach at the south end of Pawleys Island Tuesday afternoon.

    The fish are menhaden, and the SC Department of Natural Resources have been notified of the incident.

    Menhaden fish are a small, oily fish that are used for fish oil and it’s oil is also an ingredient in lipstick and they are also used for livestock feed.

  7. OzMan Says:

    Keeping the Empire going requires massive investment in managing geopolitical events, and getting the desired outcome. Warfare is far easier to transact when your own troops are out of harm’s way. No testimony is needed when the active combatant logs off, goes home to wife or hubby and kids to watch Fox news and see his/her handywork on the news with the rider;

    “A bomb blast believed to be a drone strike on a village in Blah-blah-astan today killed 30 civilians believed to be A_q_d_ militia, was reported to come from unknown forces in the region.”

    ‘Foreign complicity in the drone war’

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/01/2013114103153393705.html

    A snippet:

    “On March 17, 2011 a US drone fired several missiles at the Pakistani town of Datta Khel in an attack which killed an estimated 42 people and wounded at least a dozen more. The strike hit a council of tribal elders and local businessmen who had come to discuss a dispute over a nearby chromite mine – a meeting about which they had given prior documented notice to local government officials. Around 10:45AM several missiles struck the two circles of people seated for the commencement of the meeting, sending shrapnel and shards of rock tearing into the crowd. Idris Farid, one of the first responders to the scene, described the aftermath: “Everything was devastated. There were pieces – body pieces – lying around. There was lots of flesh and blood.”

    Another man, Khalil Khan, whose father was among those attending the meeting, said that he was informed in plain terms that none of the elders had survived the attack and that “they were all destroyed, all finished”. Unable to even identify the body parts of those who were only hours ago the leaders of their community, the people of Datta Khel were forced to “collect pieces of flesh and put them in a coffin” so that the relatives of those killed might be reasonably satisfied that the body they are burying truly belonged to their departed loved one….

    Recent investigations by Reprieve have revealed that the depth of official complicity potentially extends beyond intelligence co-operation but to the provision of lethal equipment as well. The UK government’s Department for Business Innovation and Skills (BIS) has been found to have granted General Electric, a company better known in the popular imagination for manufacturing home appliances than for deadly weapons components, export licenses for products integral to the production of the Predator drones which terrorise the inhabitants of towns such as Datta Khel. A particular subsidiary company, General Electric Intelligence Platforms (GEIP) which sells components for drones in 2012 published a brochure boasting of the military applicability of its products. As part of the brochure states:

    There is no doubt that the presence of UAV platforms will continue to grow as military, security and emergency response forces continue to extoll [its]merits…

    Contravening law

    The granting of licenses for the export of these products in support of the CIA’s extrajudicial drone war comes in complete contravention to the EU Code of Conduct on Arms Exports which prohibits member states from issuing export licenses if “there is a clear risk that the intended recipient would use the proposed export aggressively against another country”. By continuing to issue these licenses with the knowledge of their applicability to a campaign of extrajudicial executions which continues to operate without legal oversight in several countries around the world, the British government has added another layer of complicity to its involvement with the CIA in this effort….

    The new year has seen a rapid uptick in the frequency of drone strikes by the Obama administration, hitting targets in Pakistan as well as in Yemen. Some accounts have indicated that the ongoing drone war has now claimed more civilian lives than all those killed in the 9/11 attacks. The example of clandestine and surreptitious British support for CIA’s drone campaign, conducted away from public and legal scrutiny, raises troubling questions about the ability of governments to circumvent the law and elude popular accountability in the pursuit of foreign military adventurism.

    For Noor Khan and others who have lost family members in drone attacks the question of culpability colours perceptions of countries which they had scarcely heard of before their lives were altered by them forever. In the words of one relative of a victim describing life before drone strikes ravaged his hometown, “We did not know that America existed. We did not know what its geographical location was, how its government operated, what its government was like, we don’t know how they treat their citizens or anything about them. We didn’t know how they treated a common man. Now we know how they treat a common man, what they’re doing to us.”

    Given the depth of complicity of governments in the UK and potentially other countries as well, it bears reflection as to how broadly the moral and legally culpability for these attacks truly lies.”

    Drone warfare, coming to a suburb near you.

  8. Tom Says:

    Good points OzMan.

    Everyone, here’s a good take on what’s happening planet-wide (including pics) with trees (tip of the hat to Gail):

    Drought, Fires and Tree Death: Ignoring Die-Offs Until It’s Our Own

    (closes with)
    Does ‘industrial-capitalist carbon man’ give a fuck about trees? Certainly not if they get in the way of profit and ‘development’.

    “Forest precedes Man and desert follows him.”
    Francois Rene Chateaubriand

    The one word in the title the really rankles me is IGNORING – what we humans do best when it gets in the way of making money, getting laid, or doing what we want. It’s also the best descriptor of humanity – IGNORANT!

    Now that our vaunted educational system has been hi-jacked by industry and “best practices” (what a sick joke), we’ve dumbed down the population here to the point that we’ve just graduated the first generation of children who are less informed and less educated than their parents (who weren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer either).
    Yeah, they can fiddle around with their i-phones and get answers to their deepest questions like “What are the Kardashians up to?” or “What team is looking to sign La Bron?” while Obama signs laws eviscerating the Constitution on New Year’s Day. [and now i can be wisked away by the goon squad and tortured or killed by a hovering drone without any charge if he says i'm a threat to the country by making these statements or for any reason - even whim]

    So the collapse has been on-going for decades, maybe even half a century – as it was “engineered” to do (slowly over time, just like in Germany before WWII), with media control, a corporate agenda, and complete disregard for anyone or anything that isn’t in “the plan.”
    They’ve rigged the schools, the laws and the money while plundering the environment and flooding it with pollution and toxic crap.

    The hubris behind all this would be stunning if i had any belief in human kind as anything other than idiotic jerks running around trying to grab as much as they can for themselves while IGNORING everyone and everything else. This is why, when OzMan says that forming a decent community will be the toughest part, he’s hitting the nail on the head. We can’t even get people to agree that our situation is dire in spite of the facts! No matter how small or large ones community may be they’ll always be subject to threat by those outside it who either want what they have or disagree with their plan. Human history is the biggest farce there is – a long series of repeated mistakes and ignorance parading as CIVILIZATION. Well, i for one can’t wait til it’s over. We’ve gotta be the biggest joke in the universe.

    Have a nice day.

  9. ulvfugl Says:

    I hope nobody objects if I refer back to the previous thread, Lidia’s comment, “…many parallels between the ecosystem that is the human body and the ecosystem that we live in on earth..”.

    There are many obvious parallels, but that could be very misleading. There are superficial similarities between many things. Biologists have a more or less rigorous definition of ecosystem. I’m not certain that there is a consensus among scientists that the entire biosphere should be seen as an ecosystem, although it seems obvious to me that it is.

    But can the term be transferred comfortably to the human body without distorting its meaning ? There can be the ecosystem of the microbes in the gut, or on the skin surface, but is the human body in toto an ecosystem ?

    We could try it the other way, and transfer medical terminology onto the planet, and have the physiology, the metabolism, the vascular system, etc, of the biosphere… ?

    This has already occurred, in popular vernacular language, with industry as disease, and humans as pathology, etc, similar to bacteria rotting an apple, but that’s more mythos than logos, poetic than logic, in my view.

    We can see the same fractal patterns in leaves, ice, and in photos of Earth from Space, there are similarities between rail transport systems and patterns of fungal mycelia, but to get deeper insight needs understanding of the underlying principles, imo.

    I think we’re jumping categories, by comparing the biosphere and the human body. Human body is a discrete entity that replicates, with a developmental trajectory, all that embryology. Earth, the biosphere, has nothing similar. Lovelock’s Daisy World is a wonderful insight, Peter Ward’s insights likewise. There does seem to be some sort of pattern to discern, but we only have the one single sample to look at, that makes it very difficult.

    But we have plenty of examples of real ecosystems, plenty of data and observation, woodlands, coral reefs, prairies, lakes, so much that it is overwhelming, physics is easy by comparison.

    The ‘thing’ we are living in, the biosphere, is really quite small and easy to grasp. Going up, three quarters of the atmosphere is in the first seven miles, and there’s not a lot living there. Going down seven miles, and you’re past the lower limit. So, imagine, you can peel the whole thing off the round rocky core and lay it out flat like a table cloth. That’s ALL we have. You can walk from one end to the other, just about.

    What is it ? Nobody knows. Most are not even interested in knowing much about it at all. Isn’t THAT sad and incredible. Depresses me, anyway.

  10. ulvfugl Says:

    Was there a link intended, Tom ?

    Nevermind, I can guess what it’d be like, same old same old… :-(

    http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2013/01/extinction-looms-as-indonesia-opens.html

  11. OzMan Says:

    Cutting down trees will continue to happen, until there are no more trees.

    The world industrial economy knows no limits. So much wood is wasted – approximately 60% of landfill in urban municipal areas is dumped pallet wood.

    Wood was our first help in surviving in difficult to settle zones, and trees were almost everywhere.

    What a place the Earth must have been!!

    Easter Island, here we come.

  12. Tom Says:

    Yes, the link i forgot (thanks ulvfugl) is here (too busy ranting):

    http://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/2013/01/15/drought-fires-and-tree-death-ignoring-die-offs-until-its-our-own/

    and below another fact it’s taken me years to discover.

  13. Kathy C Says:

    Everyone forgets to mention sinkhole!
    Short vid of a car disappearing into a sink hole http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JkUvm4KcV7g

  14. Kathy C Says:

    China seems to be running a lead in sink holes – maybe even taking over Florida?
    Residents in the village of Lianyuan in southern China’s Hunan Province have been treading rather gingerly these last few months.

    Over 20 sinkholes have opened up in the ground since last September.

    The cave-ins, which range in size, have seen houses collapse and rivers run dry. And there is never any warning as to where and when the sinkhole occur.
    According to local authorities, the main reason for the cave-ins is the number of coalmines in the area.

    It is not clear what steps are being taken to prevent further sinkholes from appearing.

    http://news.uk.msn.com/blog/trending-blogpost.aspx?post=00b820d1-9133-4eac-8c01-ad6f95f66d0e

  15. Tom Says:

    The Act of 1871 makes us all slaves, before we’re even born here, and makes us responsible for a debt we never incurred because the Congress back then committed wholesale treason and sold us out to international bankers.

    Please listen to the 26 min video to become informed (if you haven’t heard this before – and it isn’t taught in school)

  16. Tom Says:

    Kathy – i saw that! Yes sinkholes are popping up (actually down) all over the world, probably as the result of flooding and increased rainfall washing out the foundation under roads and the surface we inhabit. i don’t think “prevention” is even possible especially since we aren’t addressing the climate that’s causing it.

  17. dairymandave Says:

    I think farmers are more aware that nature bats last than the other parts of the industrial economy. We use machinery to save labor, we use chemicals to save labor and enhance growth, knowing that recycling organic matter is what we should be doing. We know that frost kills plalnts, we know we need rain. We know the aquifers are going low, we know fertilizer is running out. We know that nature is what causes things to grow and we still must work around that fact. We still tend to work with nature.

    Having said that, the latest issue of Dairy Herd Management (dairyherd.com) is all about the weather. They are concerned. Weather tends to repeat only 20% of the time but things look like it will repeat in 2013.

    I haven’t heard of any projects of geoengineering the Arctic to cool it down. Non-farm industrial economy is, in my opinion, more arrogant. They want the arctic to warm up so they can drill. They want Greenland to warm up so they can mine it. They are not about to admit that nature bats last. They will fight and conquer nature…and win. Such arrogance. Trying to cool the arctic would be an admission that nature wins. Men don’t do that.

    David

  18. patrick k o'leary Says:

    Hi everyone,

    I just came across this, I suppose it could have a small impact on the population overshoot problem. No more corn chips?

    “Fortified by Global Warming, Deadly Fungus Poisons Corn Crops, Causes Cancer”

    Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh (Pitt) estimate more than five billion people worldwide are at risk for chronic exposure through contaminated foods, according to a March 2012 study published in PLoS One.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=deadly-fungus-poisons-corn-crops

  19. Tom Says:

    dairymandave: Why lookie here, even the mainstream news is finally gettin’ in on the act (though i think it’s about selling ad space rather than the subject matter meaning anything to most people) -

    http://news.yahoo.com/end-near-doomsday-clock-holds-5-til-midnight-232147095.html

    “The hands of the infamous “Doomsday Clock” will remain firmly in their place at five minutes to midnight — symbolizing humans’ destruction — for the year 2013, scientists announced today (Jan. 14).

    Keeping their outlook for the future of humanity quite dim, the group of scientists also wrote an open letter to President Barack Obama, urging him to partner with other global leaders to act on climate change.

    The clock is a symbol of the threat of humanity’s imminent destruction from nuclear or biological weapons, climate change and other human-caused disasters. In making their deliberations about how to update the clock’s time this year, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists considered the current state of nuclear arsenals around the globe, the slow and costly recovery from events like Fukushima nuclear meltdown, and extreme weather events that fit in with a pattern of global warming.”

    (there’s more)

    i would put the clock at about 30 seconds to midnight – but that’s just me. 5 minutes til makes it seem like we still have time to “fix” what’s wrong with the world.

    Wishful thinking – just like with the IPCC! Or, as Obama would say:
    Give ‘em hope! (but don’t do anything about it)

    Ignorant humanity has no idea how complex systems interact and influence each other (that’s about 99% of humanity) or about tipping points so i wouldn’t expect a big outcry over this. Like i said above, so many people are just trying to get through one more day and most will skip the article and go to ones concerning sports, celebrities, shopping or any other distraction to keep them on the treadmill of death.

    If there is a next time, i hope to be part of a species that not only has consciousness but also “is sentient” (or “gives a shit” in the vernacular).

  20. B9K9 Says:

    @Tom & DMD

    Tom, unless your very first memories are ones of luxury & privilege, you were born a slave/serf/sheep – and it goes back a lot longer than just 1871.

    However, it isn’t until many, many years later (if ever) that you finally discover the truth. Now, this isn’t to suggest a certain minority from the slave class aren’t appointed as nominal leaders (Clinton is an excellent example), but the ruling families firmly retain control.

    DMD, et al – diminishing marginal returns is the governing principle. Of course we will move into the final, untapped regions to exploit the last remaining reserves of scarce resources, but they will never deliver the same ‘bang for the buck’ as the first hits. To achieve the kind of return the original Ghawar field had, when global population was @ least half of today, would require 2-3x Ghawars & Cantrells. Ain’t gonna happen.

    People who study & understand the game – on both sides of the social coin (slave & rulers) – know we’re nearing the end-game stage. I suggest that rather than moan, bitch & complain, or otherwise resign one to the fates, that they should become active fans of the unknown outcome. Think of routing for a favorite team – who is going to win? What are the odds? Will it be close & exciting.

    A huge, momentous turning-oint in human history is unfolding. The PTB are ahead of the curve in terms of understanding what’s goin’ down (ie the topics discussed here daily), but that’s not to say they’re actually going to “win”. It takes unbelievably massive amounts of energy to maintain a full-spectrum security state; during a period of (rapid) decline, many are in the camp who believe the center will not be able to hold.

  21. ulvfugl Says:

    @ dairymandave

    I haven’t heard of any projects of geoengineering the Arctic to cool it down.
    Plenty of suggestions have been made. Reckless and foolish, imo.
    Projects to geo-engineer the Arctic are arrogance heaped upon arrogance, imo.

    We have already been geo-engineering the planet for the last centuries, at rapidly increasing pace, faster since 2000 than ever before, without any idea what the results were going to be, and now more geo-engineering to reduce the harm, when we don’t know what effect that will have either ?

    We still tend to work with nature.

    I think you’re ( farmers ) kidding yourselves. The same arrogance as the other industries.
    Farming destroys nature, changes the climate, then the farmers blame others.

    The only way farming could get around this problem would be to mimic natural systems as closely as possible, as did the Amazonian indians ( as mentioned by Lidia, or was it BC Nurse Prof, in previous thread ), or forest garden type systems, or permaculture type systems as taught by Geoff Lawton, or cattle herding systems as taught by Alan Savory.

    Conventional agriculture does not even attempt to consider natural systems, it replaces them with totally artificial land uses. Farming is about money, not about food, even less about ecology, or the long term future.

    http://www.eol.ucar.edu/field_projects/field-projects/bufex-2005/research-goals-objectives

  22. Tom Says:

    http://www.terraforminginc.com/category/climateviewer-3d/

    Did you know that men are “gently altering” your weather? Did you know that stock brokers and investors bet on the weather? Did you know scientists are making plans to coat your skies in reflective particles to reflect sunlight and save us from global warming? Read the truth about the wild world of climate engineering: Weather Modification and Geoengineering. Herein you will find the most complete directory of Weather Modification related companies, associations, and related research on the net.

    (there’s a silly 3 minute video poking fun at the whole idea, but the subject matter in the articles is completely serious and science based)

  23. Kathy C Says:

    Dave, the AMEG group has a number of proposals for geo-engineering. I don’t know that anyone in power is paying them any mind, and I hope they don’t. We have enough horror facing us without meddling more. OTOH you could take the position that we are going out if we don’t do this, so what is there to loose. I think however they don’t expect any negative results from what they propose, eyes wide open about the danger, clamped shut about the unthought of possible consequences.

    http://a-m-e-g.blogspot.com/2012/09/ameg-policy-brief.html

  24. Kathy C Says:

    some of the plans outlined on the Arctic blog

    http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/how-to-cool-arctic.html

  25. Bailey Says:

    On a slightly different subject, does anyone have ideas about areas of the continental US that would yield slightly more mileage from NTE? I realize there are a thousand variables, but I presume deadly heat would be way up there on the list of no-no places. And of course, water, food, natural disasters etc.

  26. ulvfugl Says:

    Farming IS geo-engineering.

  27. ulvfugl Says:

    to quote Bailey, ( hope you don’t mind Bailey, it was a good comment that got no response ) from the previous thread, this IS geo-engineering :

    Here is an interesting experiment (I am sure other’s have done it); Pretend like you are an alien coming down from space, and pull up google maps or google earth, and go to satellite view. Now zoom out and then closely in on many areas of the US – or other parts of the world. Look an area of green, and realize just a few hundred years ago it was all like this, and now EVERYWHERE you look is a patchwork of development, farms, etc. Now go to some rare areas like Bolivia or Peru and compare.

    I just did this with the east coast of the US, and except for high mountains or right next to some rivers, 90% of all vegetation is gone. In addition to the effects on habitat (and the polutants and water usage from maintenance), how can this not effect oxygen? Are we to assume that mowed grass can produce as much oxygen as the once mighty canopy of trees and dense vegetation?

  28. ulvfugl Says:

    It’s not so much the O2 part, ( which imo is relatively minor at this time ) it’s that it effects everything, the whole overall system, albedo, water cycle, soils, rivers, everything….

  29. ogardener Says:

    Thanks Guy for gifting this website and for allowing the free exchange and sharing of information.

  30. Kathy C Says:

    Bailey, once the grid goes down for good any nuclear power plant not previously decommissioned will go Fukushima from lack of cooling the reactor and spent fuel pool

    http://blogs.ft.com/energy-source/2011/03/16/the-nuclear-world-interactive-map/#axzz2IA6zwpcL

    The map at the link should be your first line of checking – everything in the east coast looks like toast

  31. dairymandave Says:

    Everyone: I was in a hurry this morning when I posted, wasn’t very clear. I know there are plans for geoengineering and I don’t think they will work out so well, but the point was that no one, with the money, really wants to do it; they want warming.

    All I was saying about farming is that no farmer ever made anything grow. We don’t do photosynthesis. Yes, we have messed up a lot of things.

    Guy, I learned some more from your interview. The fact that the interviewer is not only on your side but knows a little something about the subject must be rewarding to you, if that is the right word.

  32. depressive lucidity Says:

    I just read the article about the Indonisian forests being made available to the corporate monsters.

    ”If this happens, we’ll see the extinction of all the charismatic species in 10 to 20 years. The rhinos will be heading towards extinction in six months, the elephants will last perhaps 15 years, the tigers maybe 20. The orang-utans will go quite quickly because they live in the lowlands,” he said. ”It’s very sad.”

    How did we as a species become so vile? We’ve pretty much created planet Treblinka and there is no end in sight, other than NTE.

    I know this topic has been discussed before, but was this outcome inevitable once we reached the stage of civilization (since the use of fossil fuels was eventually going to occur)? Or, does anyone think that a sustainable civilization was possible?

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/extinction-risk-as-aceh-opens-forests-for-logging-20130114-2cpmr.html#ixzz2IAP8LOBi

  33. wildwoman Says:

    The only explanation I’ve ever heard that makes any sense is wetiko. Jack Forbes, in his book Columbus and other cannibals, describes the mental illness that drives some to kill everything in sight.

    The Native Americans would put the people who exhibited these symptoms down. I’m coming to believe that that is the only solution. But maybe this is just a bad day. You can only take so much omnicidal gore before you just want to join in to protect what you love.

  34. ulvfugl Says:

    @ wildwoman

    Thanks, I had not heard of wetiko before

    http://www.realitysandwich.com/greatest_epidemic

    But imo, it’s giving it dignity to see it as an exotic aberration, millions of ordinary people see it as normal, culture, capitalism, which makes it normal and legitimate for a few to become very wealthy at everyone else’s expense, and add the myth of progress, I mean, a lot of people will call this ‘development’, the sort of thing that gets funded by the World Bank, because we all feel sorry for under-developed countries, China will gobble up all that wood, it has the cash, and probably some of it is purely criminal, because much logging is illegal, money can be doubled in six months which is a good return for people who have a lot of dirty cash already, and so on…

    What is precious beyond value gets converted into numbers in someone’s bank account…

    It is sickening…

  35. Kathy C Says:

    Guy just listened to the interview. Well done. Also well done on America2point0. Got the discussion group more active than I have seen it before.

  36. depressive lucidity Says:

    ulvfugl, speaking of criminality … the eco-new-age optimists who advocate for political change along Gandhian lines don’t seem to realize just how criminal and sinister are the nature of the controlling powers.

    9/11 was an inside job. A massive psyop to justify the imperial expansion of the Anglo-American mafia into the oil rich Middle East and to establish a military foothold in Asia – abutting both China and Iran, no less.

    Sandy Hook is starting to get more and more weird and the shifting official narrative is starting to make less and less sense. Jim Fetzer, et al., have done a good job of exposing the indications of another psyop designed to disarm 80 million Amerikuns. Now that the White House is learning that massive gun restrictions are going to be a hard sell in Congress, Obama is getting ready to impose gun control (and eventual confiscation) measures via executive fiat. Although I don’t claim that guns are the hallmark of a free society, nor are they even relevant to Arctic collapse and methane issues, the fact that the government is now aggressively seeking to disarm the public tells me that they don’t believe the concumption orgy is sustainable for much longer and are getting ready to put us in lock-down, probably before Obama’s term in office expires – I suppose that he is the “Dark Knight” who is rising over Gotham.

    When asked whether he believed in conspiracy theories, filmmaker Michael Moore replied, “Only those that are true.” The problem is telling the difference.

    Having spent much of the past 20 years in collaborative research on dark events (the JFK assassination, 9/11, Sen. Paul Wellstone’s death), Sandy Hook looks to me like part of an escalating series of covert operations designed to promote public hysteria to incite gun control and subvert the 2nd amendment. Here are some reasons why.

    A theory is simply an interpretation of facts in a given case. When the police investigate a crime, they form a theory of the case. In courts of law, prosecutors and defense attorneys usually offer alternative interpretations. With Sandy Hook, figuring out what happened poses special challenges.

    The facts are not obvious. There were inconsistencies from scratch. The suspect, Adam Lanza, was a student there; then he was not. His mother was a teacher there; then she was not. The principal called the local paper to report the shooting; then she was among the first to die.

    The coroner reported all the dead were shot with a Bushmaster; then NBC News reported that four handguns had been found with the body and that the AR-15 had been left in the car. (Check out YouTube, “Sandy Hook shooting — AR-15 rifle was left in the car!”)

    Even if Lanza, 20, had done some shooting, the ratio of kills to targets was remarkable. As a Marine Corps officer, I qualified with a .45 four years in a row and also supervised recruits of his age in their marksmanship training. I don’t see how he could have done it.

    Police radio in real-time reported two suspects headed toward the officer calling in, one of whom was apprehended. The other was tracked into the woods, as police helicopter footage shows. We have no idea what became of these suspects. So what happened?

    Most likely, Adam Lanza and his mother were killed the day before with Adam Lanza’s body picked up by police. He was attired in a SWAT outfit, including body armor, and stored in the school.

    I argue a three-man team entered the school. One was arrested in the school, cuffed and put on the lawn. Two went out a back door; one of them was arrested and the other apparently escaped.

    Those arrested currently are not in police custody; their names were never released. That is a telling sign that we are being sold a story based on fiction rather than on fact.

    Does anything else matter? Most Americans are unaware the Department of Homeland Security has acquired 1.5 billion rounds of .40 caliber, hollow-point ammunition, which is not even permissible during combat under the Geneva Conventions.

    A subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security has issued a study of 680 reports from “fusion centers” that integrate federal, state and local anti-terrorism efforts. It found no evidence of any domestic terrorist activity.

    The absence of any terrorist threat and the existence of more than 300 FEMA camps and special boxcars to carry dissidents to them have been deliberately withheld from the public.

    Since Homeland Security has no foreign commitments, those camps and ammunition have to be for domestic consumption. Homeland Security appears to be gearing up to conduct a civil war with the American people — but 80 million armed families stand in its way.

    What better excuse could there be for banning assault weapons than the slaughter of 20 innocent children? Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif., has a gun control proposal that would lead to the confiscation of virtually every semi-automatic weapon in the nation.

    That’s my interpretation of Sandy Hook.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/01/14/how-the-sandy-hook-massacre-went-down/

  37. wildwoman Says:

    U, thanks for that link. I enjoy Paul Levys take (at least the stuff I understand) but I would caution that that is Paul Levys take. Jack Forbes sets it out in a different context entirely.

  38. Kathy C Says:

    Patrick O leary. The story about aflatoxin is not the whole fungus story. In very wet years one set of fungi grow and in very hot dry years others grow. In 2011 vomitoxin was a troublesome one. At the most danger were pigs who as you might guess have stomach problems when they ingest to much vomitoxin. One way producers handle having too much of one of the various toxins is to mix good stuff with bad so the total parts per whatever are less. Peanuts also have aflatoxin and to save having to throw out some peanuts they mix contaminated peanuts with non contaminated ones.

    This is serious for humans and livestock, but also a problem with ethanol. The process of making ethanol kills the fungi but doesn’t destroy the toxin. That wouldn’t matter except it doesn’t stay in the ethanol but rather concentrates in the left overs. The left overs are called DDGs or Dried Distiller Grains, and are used for livestock food. Without being able to sell the DDGs, even with subsidies, ethanol would not be profitable. So in 2011 or 2010 (the years run together when you get old) where the fields where corn is grown were quite wet, often farmers could not sell their grain to ethanol factories. A person I know in the pig industry said he wasn’t sure they were going to be able to get enough good grain to mix with the bad. http://ohioagmanager.osu.edu/legal-issues/guest-blog-vomitoxin-in-corn-%E2%80%93-legal-ramifications-for-producers-and-buyers/

    Doing some investigation at the time I learned that some farmers thought the GM corn was more susceptible to mold. Of course Monsanto says it is less susceptible.

    So on top of a poor crop we now have aflatoxin. Nice. I presume it will present the same problem for the ethanol production.

  39. Kathy C Says:

    Ethanol/Wet Milling
    Corn with aflatoxins can be used for ethanol
    production. Aflatoxins do not accumulate in the ethanol
    but will be concentrated in the distiller’s grains coproduct. In wet-mill processing, aflatoxins concentrate in the gluten co-products. A rough estimate is that aflatoxin levels in feed co-products will be three times those in whole corn. Therefore, processors may not accept corn with aflatoxin if their co-product markets are sensitive to aflatoxin levels, such as dairy feed or pet food. They also may screen corn at very low tolerances if the co-products are to be exported where 20 ppb is the general acceptance level.

    http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1800.pdf

  40. ulvfugl Says:

    @ depressive lucidity

    I don’t like to feed paranoia and hysteria. People need to be calm and clear headed to be able to make balanced judgements about what’s really going on. It is very difficult to make a balanced judgement. Some of the initial anomalies seem to have innocent explanations, but there still seems to be many more left that are very troubling.

    I have been trying to follow the story. I don’t even bother with the ‘disarm Americans’ part, because if it is a hoax, or if it is partly a hoax/partly real, then that in itself, is quite enough to freak anyone out. That’s not legitimate conduct for any authority.

    As far as I can tell, – and I accept that this is a terrible thing to say, should it be the case that children died, but I’m stating my judgement as if I was an honourable and honest member of a jury – there is not one single piece of independent evidence showing that anyone died, or that Adam Lanza or his mother, even existed. All there is are photos, and video clips, and so forth, all of which are EASILY fabricated.

    So, as of this moment, I don’t accept the ‘official’ version, and yes, I don’t put it beyond possibility that there are people who are capable of staging a hoax that involved real murders to add authenticity. They, presumably, are the same people who do it in other countries all the time, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, etc. Fanatics, like Breivik, only a lot of them, and with an unlimited budget.

  41. ulvfugl Says:

    @ wildwoman

    Yes. That’s what I call right brain/mythos, kinda intuitive, and then the comments fly away…
    ;-)

    I’ll have another look for the J. Forbes version later maybe.

  42. Madmanintheattic Says:

    re: depressive lucidity “How did we as a species become so vile?”
    and
    wildwoman “The only explanation I’ve ever heard that makes any sense is wetiko.”

    I would like to suggest an explanation for the vileness and insanity of our species. It is because we are actually a DOMESTICATED animal. We domesticated ourselves just as we then domesticated pigs and chickens, etc. In the same way that most domesticated animals cannot survive without the infrastructure we maintain for them or, if they do survive in the wild, they are extremely destructive as goats, the Desert Makers, are. That is, as domesticated animals, no longer in balance with Nature, we are destroying everything we encounter just as feral goats do.

    That we are domesticated has separated us from Nature and this is why we are afraid of nature and destroy it wherever and whenever we can. I am not going to provide any links to brief magazine articles or YouTube videos. I’m old school – I read books because I believe most of the issues we are facing cannot be explained or examined properly in a short article or video. Complex issues require in-depth complex analyses. Our inability to think deeply about complex issues, [caused by techno 'bread and circuses' (smart phones, YouTube, etc)] is, IMO, a major part of the problem.

    If you want to get a glimmering of understanding about our vileness a species please read Rogue Primate: An Exploration of Human Domestication by John A. Livingston (Canadian naturalist, professor). In addition read another naturalist named Paul Shepard. He wrote books with titles like The Tender Carnivore. I have read as much Livingston and Shepard as I could get my hands on and it explained to me how we actually made ourselves the way we are – maladaptive. Heck, even Marshal McLuhan, the famous media analyst knew “the hand makes the tool then the tool makes the man.”

    The next step is to understanding our vileness as a species is to understand the phenomenon of the Psychopath. In indigenous societies psychopaths, once identified, were usually executed because of the danger they posed to the survival of the tribe. For instance, Inuit men would gather together and, as a group, force the psychopath of the ice and into the water to die. Civilization, however, has provided a perfect sheltered workshop for psychopaths, sociopaths (there is a difference) and narcissists (with the aid of their authoritarian henchmen) to occupy the positions of power and control which civilization needs in order to deal with increasing complexity.

    Start with “Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths among Us” by Robert D. Hare, the man who composed the current ‘Psychopath Test’ used as a psychiatric diagnostic tool. Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work by Paul Babiak explains why your boss seems so much like, well, a psychopath. “The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us” by Martha Stout is another excellent resource. For those of you who are not book oriented go to LivingHero.com and look around for an interview with Martha Stout and other summary material on Psychopathy.

    Psychopathy is considered to be primarily a genetic condition and it has been given a sheltered workshop in which to flourish by civilization. Since the genetic aberration is no longer being culled from the herd, unfeeling controllers on the narcissist-psychopath spectrum are believed to make up as much as 25% of the population by the estimation of some scientists (source: CBC documentary).

    In short, domestication is a maladaptive response insofar as it separates the species from Nature and leaves them to die or destroy when restraints (the coop or the pen) are breached. In the process of us domesticated primates, building sufficient infrastructure to protect us from the dark horror of untamed Nature, we have destroyed a planetary biosphere just as goats create desert. This infrastructure has become a breeding ground for psychopaths and protects them from the normal culling process of execution.

    Wetiko is probably the notion of the psychopath. That our entire population seems to be ‘wetiko’ is a result of the deadening effect domestication has on any species as we are used by and manipulated for the power, profit and pleasure of the charismatic psychopaths, sociopaths and the narcissists who have weaseled their way into the positions of power opened up by the establishment of the domesticated infrastructure of civilization.

    There is clearly more to the puzzle than this, of course, but in terms of getting a grip on why Homo sapiens is such a destructive, vile, maladaptive species doing such damage to each other, other species and the biosphere I have found the above ideas very helpful.

  43. ulvfugl Says:

    Makes a lot of sense, Madmanintheattic. I’ve read some Paul Shepard.

    Re ecosystems, The microbial ecosystem of the human body

  44. depressive lucidity Says:

    Madmanintheattic, Brilliant analysis. I’m going to copy it and email to some of my friends.

    P.S. I’ve read Stout as well as Snakes in Suits and I would further add that the psychopathic psyche is now the dominant value system in late capitalist society.

  45. Tom Says:

    Here’s to living with good microbes:

    http://news.yahoo.com/video/abc-children-raised-farms-develop-080000120.html

    2 min. video touting study that shows farm kids have healthier immune systems (generally).

  46. Madmanintheattic Says:

    depressive lucidity said:
    “I would further add that the psychopathic psyche is now the dominant value system in late capitalist society.”

    Agreed. One characteristic which Livingston emphasizes is the flattening or blunting of the senses of domesticated animals. For example, many of our cities contain millions of people living nose-to-asshole and shoulder to shoulder (like cattle in an Intensive Feeding Operation aka feedlot) and us humans make it “work”. However if you put one million chimpanzees fenced in to the same geographical area as any city of one million people the chimps would slaughter each other tooth-and-claw until the population density was proper for them. If you filled a feedlot with wild Cape Buffalo the same thing would happen until there were only a few standing. But humans, with our blunted senses, can be herded into cities and keep well there without the same carnage which would manifest in the chimps or the buffalo.

    Compare the blank, stupid, dull look in the eyes of sheep or cattle and see most of humanity. Just as a flock of sheep can be manipulated by one man and a good dog or a herd of cattle can be manipulated by one man on a good horse with a good dog, so too can the dulled senses of Homo sapiens be manipulated by a few psychopaths with a good ad or propaganda campaign. The imposition of the psychopath value system on the rest of us good sheep and cattle by our psychopath masters is in their interests as our striving to be heartless psychopath consumers only increases their profit margins and prevents us from forming the meaningful communities we yearn for and miss deeply.

    There seems to be no advantage to having the big brain in terms of most people being able to see what is going on around them. Rather it seems to be a trance (belief) generating machine which can be skillfully manipulated. By the same token, then, the big brain has given us great advantage in terms of, on the one hand, being able to create effective technological ways to destroy our environment and, on the other hand, allowing the psychopaths to develop better ways to intimidate, control and manipulate us.

    I would submit that the third foundational piece for understanding why H. sapiens is the way we are is to get a grip on Meme Theory. Meme theory describes the mechanism by which the big brain turns out to be MERELY a belief/delusion/trance generator. The best source I have encountered for this The Meme Machine by Susan J. Blackmore. Very readable book and startlingly informative. Read it. Read it now. An understanding of Meme theory explains how the psychopathic value system could be adopted by entire populations.

  47. Daniel Says:

    @ Bailey

    You asked: “On a slightly different subject, does anyone have ideas about areas of the continental US that would yield slightly more mileage from NTE?”

    In the theme of separating the wheat from the chaff, “we”, only sense this summer, in earnest, have begun to separate collapse from NTE. IMO, and I suspect this might be true with several others here, NTE now constitutes two primary issues: Nonlinear rates of climatic change, and the inescapable nuclear holocaust from exposed containment pools, once the electrical grids collapse.

    The addition of these two fairly new phenomena, are still in the process of utterly eroding our past vested interests…….along with every assumption we’ve ever had.

    While some have been slightly ahead of the curve, I believe we are all, still, jumping back and forth between the stages that Paul Chefurka brilliantly outlined http://www.paulchefurka.ca/ (I will repost them below, for I believe they should be re-posted on every thread from here on out). However the final stage within acceptance of NTE, now bears a weight that frankly no one honestly knows what to do with. It’s as if the singularity of NTE has created a round hole, and all we have, are a handful of square garden pegs.

    But if one was desperate to glean any positives from NTE, I suppose it does greatly simplify our preparedness schemes, as well as, how we choose to live out the rest of our lives. And again, I believe we are only at the beginning of seriously questioning how this new paradigm completely overrides our past presumptions.

    There is a massive overlap of information concerning the causative forcing behind both collapse and NTE. They are in fact, the same. It’s just NTE has proven itself–again probably only within the last year–to be the last chapter, in a story we were either pretending or imagining was still up for grabs, or were just hoping would play out differently. Hence the profound concept of “hopium”.

    But with that said, if I could turn back the clock and pretend we were still living between 1998-2007, and you were looking to relocate in preparation of something resembling JMG’s “long descent”–even though he greatly underestimated the effects of climate change–there are IMO, two base considerations that must factor above all else.

    The first, is you must be within a maritime climate zone. The second, you must be somewhere around or above the 45th parallel. The closer to the coast, the further south you can be. Of course there are niche exceptions to these two rules, but they are so small with their own localized climate zones, that I don’t think they merit consideration.

    The next concern, is heating. Look at a map and find what places around the world meet the first two criteria, and then do a little due diligence in finding which places have the highest low temperatures during the winter.

    Oregon–where I happen to live–has the same latitude as Maine, however our winters are far, far less severe. In fact, it is possible to live here without any winter heat, if one had to, simply because of the jet stream coming off the warm Pacific greatly moderates our climate. And this isn’t going to change until the earth starts spinning in the opposite direction.

    Which brings me around to why I consider the Pacific Northwest of America, from Northern California to British Columbia, west of the Cascades, to be the best place to batten down the hatches….at least in all of the Americas. When you get down to southern South America, I would consider Chile to be the most accommodating for almost the same reasons. And let us not forget New Zealand of course, but they are going to be ravaged by energy scarcity. And unless you’re already a citizen, good luck getting in, unless you have a lot of money and a redeemable trade skill.

    Of all the associative problems that will arise from Climate Chaos, flooding, which is what is in store for the PNW, it is the easiest to mitigate with proper planning. Of course none of this takes into account mass migration and climate refugees, which will eventually collapse every comparatively sustainable region, but that’s a whole other issue.

    Honestly, no one knows anything for certain. The cascading deleterious fallout from collapse, renders any specific considerations moot. General rules of thumb are in my best guesstimation as close as we will ever get. Everyone has gaping holes in their personal strategies, for it’s impossible to predict how the timing of any one event will transpire, and instigate an unpredictable chain reaction in civic infrastructural failure. The collapse of just one key bottleneck road or bridge, can leave a whole region isolated, for better or worse.

    The rest of our lives is nothing more than an endless sequence of unintended consequences now, the best we can do, is remove ourselves from the first wave of being in harm’s way. But unless you’re young and have the means, I don’t even think this is worth worrying about, given what little time we actually have left to enjoy our lives in peace.

    Obviously, this is from an American bias, and while I’ve traveled far more than my share, I can’t speak for the specific pros and cons of northern Europe, even thought I suspect St. Petersburg will be the world’s last great fortressed city, if not Vancouver.

    But again, I personally no longer subscribe to collapse preparedness. I believe this was just a window in time, that’s now closed along with all the other foolishness we once promoted. Regardless of where you live–aside from being among the first casualties of permanent drought not unlike the predicament Guy now finds himself in–by the time society at large has to physically fall back on whatever preparedness plans we’ve made, the electrical grid will have already collapsed, or soon will, and that’s just the end, period.

    And because of this, I now consider the whole concept of “now what?”, be solely a philosophical and commiserative discussion.

    Hope that helps in some way or another.

  48. Tom Says:

    madmanintheattic: thanks for the book list etc. and great (psycho)analysis of Man’s devolution.

    depressive lucidity: that explanation sounds more reasonable than the mainstream putsch being foisted on us by tptb.

  49. Madmanintheattic Says:

    To Daniel (and Bailey)
    Regarding your response to Bailey’s question I agree with you in principle if not entirely in fact. I too live on the west coast of North America in British Columbia. In terms of Climate Disruption alone the principle seems to be that normal weather patterns will persist but as extremes. So for the Pacific Northwest (PNW) it is likely it could just get too darned wet for survival. Plants waterlogged, animals and humans hypothermic, increase in pests like slugs, wood too damp to burn, constant flooding, landslides, and wet, wet, wet.

    One principle disadvantage of the PNW is the Cascadia Subduction Zone. Scientists are unsure whether when Cascadia gives way it will be in many “small” earthquakes (7.5 to 8.5) leading to “decades of disaster” or whether it will give way in one big jolt (9.5+) causing a “concentration of catastrophe.” But there is a 100% chance the Cascadia will cause widespread destruction sometime … probably soonish. One effect a 9.5+ might trigger is the collapse of the Mica Dam north of Revelstoke, BC which will send a wave of water down the Columbia River destroying everything in it’s path and excavating all the stored nuclear, nerve gas and other classified wastes buried at the Hanford site in Washington washing all this toxic waste through Portland and into the Pacific. Nice. Dam could fall by itself anyway too but no one knows – the geological reports remain classified.

    As far as an overall assesment here is my take for Canada. The East (the maritime provinces) will be hammered mercilessly by Atlantic storms. This is already an established pattern with Hurricane Sandy just the most recent example of the potential devastation. Quebec and Ontario will become deathtraps of high heat and deadly humidity. The Prairie provinces will return to at least their normal semi-arid state. The 20th century was the wettest century on the Great Plains for the last 2000 years and in the early 19th century the area was considered by explorers to be too dry for human habitation and agriculture. The drought conditions across the United Snakes last summer are merely a harbinger of what is to come.

    British Columbia: Mostly mountainous, more snow (all three highways connecting the coast with the interior were blocked a couple of weeks ago by record high snowfall), firestorms as pine beetle killed trees combust, and mountain ecosystems are very difficult to live in. The coast I have already covered. As far as the North, the arboreal forest will be a firestorm and the tundra is already melting and releasing methane. In terms of an actual NTE event, there really is no safe place.

    Regarding above discussions of geo-engineering, all of it is futile because none of it takes into account the increased acidification and inevitable death of the oceans as the result of continued and increasing CO2 emissions. Read Under A Green Sky by Peter Ward to fully appreciate the consequences of Ocean Anoxia and consequent Ocean Death.

  50. Kathy C Says:

    Daniel you wrote “But again, I personally no longer subscribe to collapse preparedness”
    I agree. However many of the things that one might do to prepare for collapse are actually quite pleasant behaviors and can be even more so if you are no longer frantic to extend your life to what ever end point you previously thought you would reach. Gardening of course is one of those things. I can now garden without thinking I somehow have to provide all our food. Instead I can grow whatever I choose, and as much or little as my aging body will allow. :) BTW I have a male Towhee who seems to have gotten interested in me. Usually they are very timid birds. This one sings his little call sometimes 5 feet from me. I call back to-weee http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQay0cu2o4 and we call back and forth – usually I end the session. I presume he found a strange towhee with a bad call and is trying to educate me as he hasn’t tried the more complicated calls yet. Time well spent once you accept NTE.

  51. Daniel Says:

    From Paul Chefurka http://www.paulchefurka.ca/

    Climbing the Ladder of Awareness

    When it comes to our understanding of the unfolding global crisis, each of us seems to fit somewhere along a continuum of awareness that can be roughly divided into five stages:

    1. Dead asleep. At this stage there seem to be no fundamental problems, just some shortcomings in human organization, behaviour and morality that can be fixed with the proper attention to rule-making. People at this stage tend to live their lives happily, with occasional outbursts of annoyance around election times or the quarterly corporate earnings seasons.

    2. Awareness of one fundamental problem. Whether it’s Climate Change, overpopulation, Peak Oil, chemical pollution, oceanic over-fishing, biodiversity loss, corporatism, economic instability or sociopolitical injustice, one problem seems to engage the attention completely. People at this stage tend to become ardent activists for their chosen cause. They tend to be very vocal about their personal issue, and blind to any others.

    3. Awareness of many problems. As people let in more evidence from different domains, the awareness of complexity begins to grow. At this point a person worries about the prioritization of problems in terms of their immediacy and degree of impact. People at this stage may become reluctant to acknowledge new problems – for example, someone who is committed to fighting for social justice and against climate change may not recognize the problem of resource depletion. They may feel that the problem space is already complex enough, and the addition of any new concerns will only dilute the effort that needs to be focused on solving the “highest priority” problem.

    4. Awareness of the interconnections between the many problems. The realization that a solution in one domain may worsen a problem in another marks the beginning of large-scale system-level thinking. It also marks the transition from thinking of the situation in terms of a set of problems to thinking of it in terms of a predicament. At this point the possibility that there may not be a solution begins to raise its head.

    People who arrive at this stage tend to withdraw into tight circles of like-minded individuals in order to trade insights and deepen their understanding of what’s going on. These circles are necessarily small, both because personal dialogue is essential for this depth of exploration, and because there just aren’t very many people who have arrived at this level of understanding.

    5. Awareness that the predicament encompasses all aspects of life. This includes everything we do, how we do it, our relationships with each other, as well as our treatment of the rest of the biosphere and the physical planet. With this realization, the floodgates open, and no problem is exempt from consideration or acceptance. The very concept of a “Solution” is seen through, and cast aside as a waste of effort.

  52. Bailey Says:

    Thanks guys for your take on possible places which might give the most milage from NTE. I live close to the NE Fl coast currently (Amelia Island), and am quite worried about sea level rise. However, I feel the moderation effect of the ocean might provide some buffer from extreme dangerous temp fluctuations. I have thought about moving about 40 minutues inland to be away from the coast – and besides, the coast may be coming closer anyhow! We have been in a bit of a drought here which has only recently gotten some relief.

    It is hard to imagine that the nuclear facilities would not keep enough uranium on hand so that if there were a collapse of the grid, they would at least be able to maintain power to keep their own operations intact for some lengthy period?

    I had also thought about an area in NE Tn high up – like Mountain City which is 2500 feet and affordable, and near two large lakes. Any thoughts on this? Finally, I have friends who are from Watertown NY, and because there is so much lake area, I felt it might provide some moderation in the summer. However, I am worried about too much cold and precipitation – and of course, the Sandy like occurrences which could extend influences that far.

  53. B9K9 Says:

    @KathyC – I’ve developed the same sentiment regarding gardening. We have a fairly large backyard garden given that we live by the coast in a large urban setting.

    During my journey through PF’s 5 stages, I began to explore ways in which one might possibly be able to not only sustain themselves, but also serve to help build community cohesiveness by sharing knowledge with others.

    However, once you settle into #5, all these frantic preparations & plans for some unknown future society begin to vanish. Instead, those kinds of activities become merely hobbies, ones that provide pleasure on nice, sunny days.

    In a weird way, “achieving” #5 actually allows one to experience, perhaps an emotion not felt for a very long time, a sense of inner peace.

    Maybe that’s how ‘number 5s’ will be recognized amongst the crowd as this sucker spirals towards the end. The guy/gal who is happy & content, and doesn’t let current events disrupt or upset them in anyway.

    As DL rhetorically asks, was this ordained from the start? To which I suspect, yes it was. No one asked to be born – you’re just here and slowly figure out what it means. The systems we experience were in place not only in our great grandparents days, but long before that as well.

    Does the X-1 generation of yeast wonder why he must continue to consume, even the face of diminishing resources and environmental degradation, before the last population doubling point, and hence, the end?

  54. Madmanintheattic Says:

    I can only reiterate: “In terms of an actual NTE event, there really is no safe place.”

    Where to go and what to do? To echo Kathy C., be with your family, be with your friends, do something you have always wanted to do, prepare yourself emotionally, psychologically and spiritually. Simplify your life and open yourself to the last wonders our former Paradice Planet offers. Love your neighbour, nurture children, be kind to animals, be kind to yourself, strip away your own delusions, go for a very, very long walk (days,weeks,months), grow some food, do some art, create some music, seek like minds.

    Continue your journey despite the likely NTE destination, but whistle while you walk and listen while others talk and help the elderly to cross the road safely.

    The only safe place you will EVER find is in your own heart and mind. In the end, these are the only places we ever dwell.

    “The very concept of a “Solution” is seen through, and cast aside as a waste of effort.” The only part of Who, What, When, Where, Why and How which can be solved is WHO and the WHO is YOU. This is an opportunity to delve into Who-is-You because, no matter what, we ONLY EVER do what we can with what we have wherever we happen to be. Do that honourably and mindfully with a pure heart and a quiet mind and you are living in the safest place you will ever find.

  55. Madmanintheattic Says:

    Sorry, above post was in response, again, to Bailey. Forgot the header

  56. Daniel Says:

    @ Bailey

    You stated:

    “It is hard to imagine that the nuclear facilities would not keep enough uranium on hand so that if there were a collapse of the grid, they would at least be able to maintain power to keep their own operations intact for some lengthy period?”

    I think I’ll let Kathy C completely disabuse you of that assumption.

  57. Speak Softly Says:

    great analysis of psychopathy/sociopathy, glad it was finally brought up.

    A few more two-cents.

    Robert Hare is The Man on this subject. Read his books for the fine grained nuance of the subject. Lot of practical actual hands on experience with the perps.

    He claims that true psychopaths are never deterred by pain or consequences for their actions. I agree that in the past the tribal elders of whatever culture in time or place knew of this defect and eliminated the threat of the ‘weitiko’ (Bad Seed) with death.

    According to Hare, there is no ‘cure’ or even deep effective treatment for psychopaths. Makes them sound a lot like spent radioactive fuels rods in a cooling pond doesn’t it?

    I think that Vampire mythology throughout the ages is a sublimated warning about the weitiko/ socio/psychopaths in our midst.

    The current corporate cabal/syndicate that sits atop the hierarchy of humanity, as it has presently devolved into, was summed up by the caricature coined phrase of Matt Taibbi as:

    “… the great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money…”

    There have been many test of empathy in humans. It’s not a conscious response. You have it, you don’t learn it. Normal humans (minus the socio/psychopathic component now run rampant) are naturally empathetic.

    If various pictures are shown very rapidly before test subjects showing various themes, food, sex, status objects, etc… all human pupils will dilate in response at measured rates. If pictures of scenes of suffering and misery are shown at that same high rate of speed, too fast for the conscious mind to react to, most human’s pupils will react in an empathetic response, except for socio/psychopaths whose pupils have no reaction at all, unless they have trained themselves to respond.

    They don’t have any empathy at all because they are essentially Reptiles, the mammalian parts of their brains where empathy works don’t work well or work at all. Yes, they look like mammals, but they are not. They are however very clever mimics and predators, think Hollywood Velocraptor dressed as humans.

    Warren Zevon got it:

    “Well, I saw Lon Chaney walkin’ with the Queen,
    Doin’ the werewolves of London …

    …I saw a Werewolf drinkin’ a Pina Colada at Trader Vic’s

    And his hair was perfect

    Hare tells a story of the actress Nicole Kidman who was going to act the part of a psychopath in a movie and wanted him to consult/coach her on how real psychopaths operate. He told her a senario she could practice with to ‘get into character’.

    Here is what we are collectively up against with ‘world leaders’

    Practice Makes Perfect

    Hare consulted with Nicole Kidman on the movie Malice. She wanted to let thew audience know, early in the film, that she was not the sweet, warm person she appeared to be.

    He gave her the following scene to rehearse: “You’re walking down the street and come across an accident at the corner. A young child has been struck by a car and is lying in a pool of blood. You walk up to the accident site, look briefly at the child, and then focus at the grief-stricken mother. After a few minutes of careful scrutiny, you walk back to your apartment, go into the bathroom, stand in front of the mirror, and practice mimicking the facial expressions and body language of the mother.”

    Lon Chaney quote of the night”

    “There is nothing funny about a clown in the moonlight.”

  58. ogardener Says:

    @Speak Softly

    http://guymcpherson.com/2013/01/conspiring-for-climate-chaos/#comment-58184

    The whole world is a stage and I’m leaving on the next one.

    Loved your commentary. :-)

  59. wildwoman Says:

    The way Forbes defined wetiko was cannibal, actually. A wetiko eats anothers life.

    Was just retreading the book, given this discussion. It’ s a good book, but I don’t know if you can even get it in paper.

  60. Daniel Says:

    @ madmanintheattic

    Not all potential threats are equal.

    Yes, the Cascadian subduction zone is well documented, and yes it’s not a matter of if, but when. But since we’re talking about geological time, even though the “big one” is now considered overdue, in my opinion, it doesn’t fall within my perimeters of NTE.

    For the same reason I don’t pay attention to EMP attacks, Mt Saint Helens, solar flares, or terrorism, I pick my battles. And given all the things that are currently in the process of rendering this planet uninhabitable, earthquakes just don’t register on my radar. But granted, when it comes, it will be utterly devastating.

    As for the PNW being too wet, considering the earth has entered into an epoch of permanent extreme drought, I consider too much water, to be a problem you want to have……. You just have to be smart and plan for it.

    And as for the Hanford nuclear site, which is well over a hundred miles from any metropolis, I’ll take a decommissioned site–even a leaking one–over an active site any day.

  61. Madmanintheattic Says:

    Daniel,
    I’m not in disagreement with you. A Cascadia incident is remote, unpredictable and, I agree, need not be factored in to all that is threatening us. However I’m not sure about the drying thing. A warming planet means warmer air means the atmosphere holds more moisture means catastrophic rain events. Even though the Great Plains are drying they will be hit by a wonderful double whammy: desert conditions suffering huge super-cell thunder and lightening storms and tornados (first one of the season hit the US last week – a bit anomalous for January I believe) which wash away the soil, create gulleys and make an unlivable region even more unlivable.

    By the same token heating will create more evaporation and more atmospheric loading in the PNW as well so a region already wet with high rainfall will only become more wet. Many areas of the planet are drying but many areas are flooding. I think climate disruption creating extremes of existing local patterns is the valid rule of thumb.

    Otherwise, I agree. Pick your battles, unlikely events remain unlikely and most certainly a decommisioned site may be less dangerous than an active one – not going to argue with anything else you said.

    But I’m pretty sure it will get wetter here. Already where I live the last several Springs have been much colder than in the past and the rain has lasted well into June. Many people loose big chunks of their gardens because the soil is too wet and/or cold for germination. Hay won’t grow properly in some areas and is too heavy and wet to harvest in other areas. Of course there is variability in all of this but the trend where I am seems to be, overall, wetter.

  62. Madmanintheattic Says:

    Hi wildwoman
    re: Wetiko.

    A bit of a conundrum here. In the Reality Sandwich essay he defines wetiko as “a Cree term which refers to a diabolically wicked person or spirit who terrorizes others.” I haven’t been able to find that definition anywhere or any definition at all in any of the 6 or so Cree dictionaries I consulted, not even in the Cree Dictionary being compiled by University of Alberta, Edmonton.

    It seems Christopher Columbus actually coined the word Cannibal:

    “Columbus created the Cannibals.(1) The Oxford English Dictionary
    indicates that the word “cannibal” comes from the
    Spanish, “Canibales,” “originally one of the forms of the ethnic name
    Carib or Caribes, a fierce nation of the West Indies, who are
    recorded to have been anthropophagi, and from whom the name was
    subsequently extended as a descriptive term.” The dictionary further
    asserts that the word originated with Columbus: “Columbus’s first
    representation of the name as he heard it from the Cubans was
    Canibales…. The American Heritage Dictionary states the connection
    between Columbus and the cannibals even more succinctly: “From
    Spanish Canibalis, Caribales, name (recorded by Columbus) of the man-
    eating Caribs of Cuba and Haiti….” So Columbus gave the world the
    word, “cannibals.”

    Was Columbus, as our dictionaries imply, Europe’s first ethnographer
    of the New World? Did he discover natives who were anthropophagi and
    simply record in his log and letters their self-description?

    Columbus’s log of his first voyage and his letters of February, 1493
    and January, 1494, far from being objective records of New World
    discoveries, are eloquent testimonies to the POWER OF LANGUAGE TO CREATE REALITY (emphasis added). A close reading of these texts reveals not how
    Columbus discovered the Cannibals, but HOW HE CREATED THEM (emphasis added). These documents tell the story of their birth and maturation, their metamorphosis from fiction into fact. By his power to define,
    Columbus created for the Old World the most fascinating New World
    Natives–the ferocious, blood-thirsty Cannibals.”
    continued at

    http://descendantofgods.tripod.com/id44.html

    I haven’t read Forbes but I am uncharacteristically going to go out on a limb and suggest Forbes might be misusing the word ‘wetiko’ since the alleged and unconfirmed Cree definition is somewhat different, more general and is more in alignment with the generalized concept of the psychopath in civilization as I outline above (so, yes, it serves my thesis).

    Not a big point and certainly terrorizing others could include killing and eating them. In addition there is a case to be made that the psychopaths running the show on this planet are eating the planetary biosphere in the form of destroying it to produce profits. I have always thought “the Economy” was a monster which fed on human beings, consuming human lives and souls and converting them into money. Perhaps it is a potato/potato, tomato/tomato kind of thing, really.

    I suggest the concept of wetiko as psychopath (terrorizing others) is more broad and thus has more utility for conceptual modelling and understanding of our situation over the more specific concept of wetiko as cannibal.

  63. Daniel Says:

    @ madmanintheattic

    No doubt……it’s going to get a hell of a lot wetter and windier here.

  64. Madmanintheattic Says:

    Here we are:

    “The Wendigo (also Windigo, Windago, Windiga, Witiko, Wihtikow, and numerous other variants) is a mythical creature appearing in the mythology of the Algonquin people, who inhabited present-day Quebec. It is a malevolent cannibalistic spirit into which humans could transform, or which could possess humans. Those who indulged in cannibalism were at particular risk, and the legend appears to have reinforced this practice as taboo. …

    At the same time, Wendigos were embodiments of gluttony, greed, and excess; never satisfied after killing and consuming one person, they were constantly searching for new victims. In some traditions, humans who became overpowered by greed could turn into Wendigos; the Wendigo myth thus served as a method of encouraging cooperation and moderation. …
    Among northern Algonquian cultures, cannibalism, even to save one’s own life, was viewed as a serious taboo; the proper response to famine was suicide or resignation to death. On one level, the Wendigo myth thus worked as a deterrent and a warning against resorting to cannibalism; those who did would become Wendigo monsters themselves.”

    Extended definition at

    http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/Wendigo

  65. depressive lucidity Says:

    Dear Great Madam who resides in the Attic

    I do not know what planet, galaxy, or parallel universe you hail from, but clearly you are not a native of our little planet of the apes, for you know the monkey people too well and your observations are too painfully accurate for a mere insider. You have the zoo keeper’s keen eye for his animals’ habits.

    Unlike some of the commentators here, I do not view the hunter gatherer stage of human social evolution as desirable. Yes, had we remained dirty little savages we could have continued roaming around this planet longer than as civilized apes. But civilization, despite its deleterious effects on our animal nature, elevated us to a higher level of intelligence, of culture, etc… For example, the book (and I am a recovering bibliophile) was a magnificent achievement. Life in a world without philosophy, literature, music, metaphysical speculation, interesting conversation while sipping brandy at a bar in Paris, and so forth, for me would be a miserable experience. The problem is that we were unable to overcome the dialectic between civilization and the biosphere. We were clever, but not clever enough to understand the physical limitations placed on us by the planet. Over the last 10 thousand years we have moved into our collective abstract fantasies (memes, if you will) and have become more and more disconnected from the geological and biological systems that sustain us. The takeover of the mass mind by psychopathic myth makers has made matters worse. We are now locked into an omnicide cult which is probably inescapable for most of the monkey people.

    But here is my quandary. Was this inevitable? Could we have culturally developed along different lines such that we would have eventually constructed a civilization that was both sustainable and technologically advanced?

  66. depressive lucidity Says:

    P.S. What about the meme meme? How do you know that the neo-Darwinian theory of memes is not just another meme in an endless chain of memes? Who gets to observe the world from a meme-free epistemological vantage point? Who gets to determine that all belief systems are just invisible, theoretical constructs that a supposedly meme-immunized Dawkins dubbed “the meme”?

  67. depressive lucidity Says:

    Oooops. Madman, I must be dyslexic, I thought it was “Madam in the attic.” Sorry. Won’t happen again.

  68. ulvfugl Says:

    Excerpt

  69. Bailey Says:

    @depressive
    “But here is my quandary. Was this inevitable? Could we have culturally developed along different lines such that we would have eventually constructed a civilization that was both sustainable and technologically advanced?”

    I think it would have been possible had we maintained a simultaneous contact with the planet and all its beauty and had not gone the route of corporate insanity. I partly blame religion also, because without it’s foolish cries of ‘reproduce and have dominion’, we might have had our wits enough to maintain a balanced population via birth control. So yes, with a very sane approach, I think we could have developed a technological society – though it may have looked a little different (but far better than ecocide).

  70. Madmanintheattic Says:

    to depressive lucidity
    re: Was this inevitable? Could we have culturally developed along different lines such that we would have eventually constructed a civilization that was both sustainable and technologically advanced?

    My cover has been blown!! I AM an extra-terrestrial anthropologist from the third planet of the Z’nbl G’nubi system in the alternate Universe of Tralfamadore.

    My short answer to your question is: No, we could not have, for at least two (likely interacting systemic) reasons.

    The first, as outlined previously, is the problem of the presence of the Psychopath gene in the human construct. The only way our species could have succeeded would be by the diligent extirpation of the psychopath whenever it appeared. The structure of civilization has prevented that.

    Secondly I believe the problem of Consciousness (and the subsequent vulnerability to Meme infestation) lies at the base of our inability to be decent human beings let alone animals in harmony with Nature.

    The problem of Consciousness I think is best described by a thought experiment. Imagine you are an animal. Pick one, probably terrestrial, with a large enough brain that Consciousness (whatever that is) could arise. Now imagine you are this animal, totally in the moment, building your nest or mating or playing or sitting in a tree eating fruit. Suddenly you become aware you ARE, that you exist, that you are sitting in a tree or mating or eating, that you are a you and that you is suddenly separate from the tree, the fruit, the mate, the players.

    Imagine the flood of terror coursing through your body at the horror of separation, at the horror of the OTHER whether that other is your mate, the banana, the tree or your playmates. Imagine the strenuous efforts you might make to feel safe, to feel in control, to defend, to exist because everywhere around you is NOT YOU when only a moment before you were one with all, in the moment, merely being.

    We don’t have the panic moment of becoming conscious because we are born as embryos and slowly, so slowly over decades we are acculturated, trained, brainwashed, inoculated with a zillion culture-specific memes, judgements, evaluations, taboos which create a smear of mechanisms and defences intended to deal with the OTHER whether that other is Nature, the tribe next door, the Muslims in the middle east who have all OUR oil or whatever the OTHER is to your culture.

    However, despite the acculturation and meme infestation the primal horror of separation, lonesomeness, non-connection is pervasive but operating at a non-conscious level. I submit we are all recoiling in horror at the immensity of Nature, of the Universe, at the inscrutability of ANY other – mate, parents, siblings – all inhabit an existence we can truly know nothing about. All the mystery and unknowing around us embedded in the separation, fuelling this horror, causes a generalized psychosis which we are happy to escape from by any strategy available whether that is jihad, conquering the wilderness, conquering the OTHER in any of its many forms.

    Once this poor victims of separation-psychosis reach the stage of technological expertise which allows them to destroy the OTHER wherever they see it, then they do. Even without the psychopath gene, the utter terror of our aloneness is sufficient to motivate us into the exact situation we find ourselves in.

    This separation, in our case, has much to do with our self-domestication. The actual mechanisms which selected for our huge cerebral cortexes are unknown and the original purpose of the cortex is also unknown. Theories abound but the effect, in the end, is sufficient brain complexity to give rise to self-reflecting consciousness, establish the individual ego and create the experience of separation and all that brings – destruction of the OTHER and, ultimately, ourselves.

    I am reminded of Arthur C. Clarke’s quip that we will never encounter extraterrestrial life because any civilization which reaches the level of technology to succeed at extensive space travel will have destroyed itself, just as we are doing, long before they got off their ground (except for us Z’nbl G’nubiians, of course but then I’m trans-dimensional too).

    I hope that answers your question. I’ve thought about this a lot but never written it down so this expression might be a bit awkward but I hope the idea is apparent.

  71. Madmanintheattic Says:

    to depressive lucidity
    re: What about the meme meme?

    Regarding Memes and Meme theory and the Meme of Memes, it is far too complex a concept to fully explicate here so do read Blackmore’s Meme Machine. She is the leading popularizer of consciousness research right now. She raises that question and others (what IS consciousness, anyway) and answers it and others convincingly.

    The basic notion is we can examine our own minds. Just as a Cognitive Behavioural therapist can help you examine your own mind for the cognitive tricks and traps which are causing you emotional difficulties; just as the therapist can find the self-talk, the self-recriminations, the maladaptive strategies, and all the other internal constructions which can shape your experience in the world, so to we can examine our minds and see the beliefs, notions, conclusions and trances which can be identified as memes.

    That is as far as I can go with this. Read her book. It is not an easy topic. I’ve read it three times and I still can’t really summarize it effectively in this format.

    I would suggest that your use of phrases like “the neo-Darwinian theory of memes” and your sarcasm directed at “supposedly meme-immunized Dawkins” are at best judgements on your part and at worst memes you have been infected with. Neo-Darwinism is itself a meme, a construct, a concept and not a very useful one IMO. Dawkins is not the monster so many people perceive him to be.

    I suggest you are illustrating the theory right here and now. Both of those statements are merely judgements and judgement stems the flow of open debate and useful thought, exactly the purpose of most memes, and allow a convenient cookie-cutter, formulaic approach to dealing with THE OTHER – in this case another meme and an eminent scientist.

  72. ulvfugl Says:

    Interesting train of thought, Madmanintheattic.

    I suggest one of the Self and Other dichotomies, is reinforced by the Cartesian Dualism inherent in science, ( and proven false, logically, by quantum physics and the double slit thingee, but I’ve promised not to mention that ) ;-)

    So, another tack, logic bridges the gulf, as above, but it is also bridged, or dissolved, experientially, via meditation, and other experiences, as described throughout history by the various accounts pf ‘One-ness’ or ‘Unity with the all’, etc.

    Also, what do you make of Sorenson’s Pre-Conquest Consciousness, how does that fit, does that support your thesis ? I suppose it does, pre domestication ?

    I’m familiar with Susan Blackmore’s ideas. Fwiw, I think she is mistaken about zen buddhism and mistaken about memes.

  73. Robin Datta Says:

    It is a delusion foisted on the sheeple that the constitution gives sovereign rights to them. It does no such thing. The rights, if any, were granted to the landed male gentry of European origin. Neither Native Americans, nor those of African origin nor women were included. The constitution had to be amended no less than three times (the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth times) to give it a semblance of civility. A semblance only in the realm of the law – de jure. De facto conditions for those of African origin remained disgraceful for nearly another century. Laws don’t matter. What matters is who interprets and enforces them. Because the Native Americans did not submit to the constitution, their reservations retain a token sovereignty.

    “All men” in the declaration of independence had a very definite meaning. Those “all men” rule the roost to this day. The sheeple ain’t them.

  74. OzMan Says:

    ‘Australian Bureau of Meteorology’

    ‘Bureau Home/ Australia/ New South Wales / Forecasts / Upper Western’

    http://www.bom.gov.au/nsw/forecasts/upperwestern.shtml

    (Temps in Celcius)

    A snippet:

    “Friday 18 January

    Mostly sunny morning….Overnight temperatures falling to around 30 with daytime temperatures reaching the low to mid 40s.

    Saturday 19 January

    Partly cloudy….Overnight temperatures falling to 22 to 28 with daytime temperatures reaching 33 to 42.

    Sunday 20 January

    Overnight temperatures falling to the low to mid 20s with daytime temperatures reaching around 40.

    Monday 21 January

    Partly cloudy….Overnight temperatures falling to the low to mid 20s with daytime temperatures reaching 36 to 41.”

    Sydney is forcast for tomorrow Friday 18th as 39 degrees C.

    I wish I could say we are learning somthing down here, but it seems the news is dominated with the human interest situationals of firefighters, who IMO are to be commended, not laughed at as fools etc, and helping the devastated with some state cash and emergency housing.

    I mean Duh! Does anyone think that wouldn’t happen, but what about national debate about the extreme temperatures and the catastrophic heat cells remaining for days not hours?

    I have repeatedly contacted a neighbour of mine who happens to be an ABC radio producer, and was the correspondent in Copenhaggen for the 2009 Climate Vomit…eerr..Summit, sorry, and he is aware of most of the forcasts, and, has access to the latest reports from around the world…

    But no answer.

    I guess it is all about the share market, what else could it be?

    The kids found a frog in our chicken water container tonight. I guess she is getting despirate for some H2O. She was there last night too but I didn’t recognise her call. It is good to know some are still surviving here.

    Haven’t seen any roos lately, but I’m not sure of their usual seasonal movements, yet. Still poo to harvest so they must be there sometime eh?,(they don’t call me Sherlock for nothing).

    Going over to raid a plum tree in full fruit tonight I found at the independent school next door. No one is taking them as school is not back for 2 weeks.

    Yeah, that stage 5 stuff I think is just called:

    ‘getting on with it.’

    But I might add, ‘getting on with it while pretty well informed.’

    Many people are doing their own ‘getting on with it’, which is supporting the Empire, and consumption vulgarity lifstyle, but not informed at all.

    Thinking about all you guys in the North American Hemisphere and what kind of Summer you will get.

    I don’t pray, but if I did, I would be a long vigil this time – I think it will be hell, and let us hope, if it is, it will wake em all up.
    What happens then will be anyone’s guess.

    Look for the unexplained deaths from a pandemic at that time, just to end on a cheer up note.

  75. OzMan Says:

    Sorry that should have read…

    “…firefighters, who IMO are NOT to be commended, not laughed at as fools etc… ”

    Sorry if I offended the firies, (or the fairies)

  76. dairymandave Says:

    Big Data

    We study ourselves and collect data on ourselves so we can exploit ourselves, (not us, the other) No mention of looking outward at the place where we live. No data from there. Total psycopaths, the new future:

    http://searchbusinessanalytics.techtarget.com/definition/big-data-analytics

    This is where humans are going, they think. Maximize your return on investment, exploit:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrNIZ7-SMPk

  77. Kathy C Says:

    B9K9 – exactly a sort of peace in accepting the inevitable. Easier of course to obtain if you have already gotten past personal death denial – most don’t do that without being told they have a terminal disease. I learned at 16 while volunteering at a nursing home that sometimes death was the great deliverer. It made me able to be a Hospice Volunteer years later. While I missed the people I volunteered with, I was able to be glad that they were past the pain.

    But accepting NTE is easier when you are older, much harder for the younger, and very hard for those who still have young children in there care.

  78. Kathy C Says:

    Two days ago a yellow cabbage butterfly in the garden – unheard of for this time of year. Today possible snow. Fun and games in climate chaos.

  79. Kathy C Says:

    Bailey, yes it would seem that the nuclear plants could produce their own power and keep themselves cool, but in fact they can’t. Someone said once that they were trying that at Chernobyl when it blew. I haven’t found anything on that.

    Unfortunately, the world’s nuclear power plants, as they are currently designed, are critically dependent upon maintaining connection to a functioning electrical grid, for all but relatively short periods of electrical blackouts, in order to keep their reactor cores continuously cooled so as to avoid catastrophic reactor core meltdowns and fires in storage ponds for spent fuel rods.

    http://truth-out.org/news/item/7301-400-chernobyls-solar-flares-electromagnetic-pulses-and-nuclear-armageddon

    Per Arnie Gundersen the NRC does not require diesel backup for the spent fuel pools only the reactors. Their assumption is the grid powering the area of any nuclear power plant would never be down more than 1 week and the spent fuel pools which heat up slower would be OK until then. At Oyster Creek when the grid went down there during Sandy. they were making plans to cool the spent fuel pool with fire hoses. I don’t remember if they had to actually ended up doing that or not. But there you have it. Diesel backup for the reactors (which still need to be cooled even if shut down) and 1 week fuel, and none for the spent fuel pools.

  80. Kathy C Says:

    U.S. reactors have generated about 65,000 metric tons of spent fuel, of which 75 percent is stored in pools, according to Nuclear Energy Institute data. Spent fuel rods give off about 1 million rems (10,00Sv) of radiation per hour at a distance of one foot — enough radiation to kill people in a matter of seconds. There are more than 30 million such rods in U.S. spent fuel pools. No other nation has generated this much radioactivity from either nuclear power or nuclear weapons production.

    http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/spent_nuclear_fuel_pools_in_the_us_reducing_the_deadly_risks_of_storage

    This could be put in dry cask storage (the Fukushima dry casks on site were not damaged) but surprise surprise it costs more than sticking it in a spent fuel pool so now those pools contain much more fuel than they were designed for.

  81. Kathy C Says:

    I post links for podcasts and articles all the time from http://fairewinds.com/ check it out to get educated on the ongoing dangers at Fukushima and around the world.

  82. Robin Datta Says:

    This is an opportunity to delve into Who-is-You because, no matter what, we ONLY EVER do what we can with what we have wherever we happen to be. Do that honourably and mindfully with a pure heart and a quiet mind and you are living in the safest place you will ever find.

    You’ve got the message.

    I have always thought “the Economy” was a monster which fed on human beings, consuming human lives and souls and converting them into money.

    The primary economy (resources) is converted by the economic process into the secondary economy (products). For a tree, the process is photosynthesis, for a cheetah the chase, for cattle it is grazing and ruminating, etc. money is a set of symbols under mutual agreement that are convertible into resources and/or products.

    Pick one, probably terrestrial, with a large enough brain that Consciousness (whatever that is) could arise.

    Consciousness does not arise; complex behaviour does. All behaviour is attributable to the meat robot.

    Suddenly you become aware you ARE, that you exist,

    The “aware” has no “you”, no “ARE” and does not “exist” or “not-exist”. The “you” is an apparition illumined by the “aware”.

    Theories abound but the effect, in the end, is sufficient brain complexity to give rise to self-reflecting consciousness, establish the individual ego and create the experience of separation

    Sufficient brain complexity gives rise to sufficiently complex meat robots with sufficiently complex behaviours. No behaviour, no matter how complex, proves that the meat robot has awareness and is therefore not a meat robot.

  83. Kathy C Says:

    http://enformable.com/2013/01/workers-complete-first-stage-of-steel-cover-for-fukushima-daiichi-unit-4/

    Check out the pictures at the link. Then imagine if we couldn’t do anything anymore to re-mediate disasters because of peak oil

    For the better part of the last 6 months, workers have been preparing Fukushima Daiichi Unit 4 for the extraction of the spent fuel from the spent fuel pool of the destroyed reactor building. They have removed the debris from atop the reactor building, and worked on preparing the structure to be covered by a steel cover in order to remove the spent fuel assemblies from the pool.

    Of note the first sarcophagus over Chernobyl is leaking. A second one is planned but not completed – that was how long ago?

    On January 8th, workers completed the first stage of the work to erect a steel cover in order to extract fuel from the reactor building. The base of the cover has been set, consisting of 6 pillars and 7 beams.

    The finished structure will include 4 more levels to be constructed on top of the newly-finished foundation, and will extend over the existing Unit 4 reactor building.

  84. Peter D Says:

    Hi all,

    I’ve been out of the environmental science loop since I bombed out of uni 20 years ago, after refusing to comply, and have been poking around this site for a week or so now. I’m actually inclined to believe that NTE is a reality, but I’ve lost track of the science over the years, to the extent that my thoughts on the issue are today based more on emotion as much as reason. So I have some questions and concerns…

    But they can wait…I’ve been disracted by something, and I’ve got to get it off my chest:

    depressive lucidity wrote:
    Sandy Hook is starting to get more and more weird and the shifting official narrative is starting to make less and less sense. Jim Fetzer, et al., have done a good job of exposing the indications of another psyop designed to disarm 80 million Amerikuns

    Speaking of psychopaths, I had a strange encounter with Jim Fetzer on a “deep politics” forum a while ago. He was arguing that the moon landings were faked, and I was doing my best to point out faults in the evidence he and others were presenting. He pm’d me at one point, asking me about my history, and promptly tried to use the small amount of information I dared give him to paint me in a bad light on the forum. Then, when imho I had intellectually cornered him and his sidekick, I was ceremoniously banned from the forum for pointing out that his theories involved an accusation against some Hubble telescope scientists of falsifying their published work. I felt like I’d stumbled upon a whole den of them.

    I treat anything Fetzer is involved in with suspicion – if it’s important, other more reliable people will be talking about it too, so I look for another source. (His support of Judy Wood was what set me against him to begin with. As a mechanical engineer, she makes a good fruit loop.)

    Regarding Sandy Hook, I’m too far away, geographically and culturally, and not sufficiently across it to say anything definitive about it, except that there definitely appears to be disinfo agents out there in internetland, turning legitimate concerns into claims easily percieved to be batshit-crazy.

  85. Tom Says:

    After listening to the interview above, i’m trying to figure out what is the 9th feedback system we’ve triggered that Guy alludes to.

    Anyone?

  86. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Peter D

    …turning legitimate concerns into claims easily percieved to be batshit-crazy.

    PsyOp cyberwarfare. So much weirdness. Say, for sake of argument, someone gets near the truth. Then, the opposition will outflank them, by taking their claims and adding on a whole lot of bat shit crazy stuff to discredit them.

    Seems to be some very good examples of that from 9/11. At the start, there were relatively few investigators, and it was possible to get a handle on the sane, careful ones. Then suddenly there were a flood of totally over the top loony claims, a smokescreen of absurd exaggeration and confusion, to drown out the truth seekers.

    I don’t go with Fetzer, or any one interpretation, I try to check a lot of forums and blogs. It’s admittedly incredibly hard to get a balanced view, there’s a lot of loons and crackpots and people with agendas. Nonetheless, my feeling, my overall impression, there’s something deeply, deeply wrong about all of this, something very troubling.

    I don’t know if you followed the Syrian story at all. There was a video shown by CNN and BBC as ‘genuine front line footage’ which was later proved to be made in a studio, another camera showed them setting it all up and making the thing, faked propaganda to shift public opinion. This is happening all the time. Imo, nothing from MSM can be trusted.

  87. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Robin D.

    madmanintheattic : Suddenly you become aware you ARE, that you exist

    This seems clear, plain, logical, has explanatory value.

    Robin : The “aware” has no “you”, no “ARE” and does not “exist” or “not-exist”. The “you” is an apparition illumined by the “aware”.

    This seems opaque, obscure, illogical, explains nothing.

  88. Robin Datta Says:

    This seems opaque, obscure, illogical, explains nothing.

    That’s why it is called the Void – Sunyata, Ein Sof. It is not an object, is opaque. It is beyond logic, appears illogical. It explains nothing as there is nothing besides, and is itself the “nothing”.

  89. Steph Says:

    Hi all,

    Coming out to my circle of friends about believing in NTE has been discouraging. Either they outright disbelieve, or concede I might be on to something but a) they aren’t going to change anything or b) won’t look at anything that might corroborate what I’m saying so they aren’t accountable (I guess) for knowing it.

    I have met some new people in my area who express concern and some urgency, but they (like me) are still casting about for *some* kind of hope. My concern is that the search for hopeful solutions is impeding actually DOING STUFF NOW. (Is there anyone on this list who has not already done significant preparedness planning and implementation?)

    What do you all think about Allan Savory? He’s giving a talk called Reversing Global Warming while Meeting Human Needs: An Urgently Needed Land-Based Option next week at the Center for International Environment and Resource Policy at the Fletcher School at Tufts University.

    The promo material says Allan Savory is an African rancher and restoration ecologist and originator of the Holistic Management approach to reversing desertification. This innovation is essential for our future, because replenishment of grassland soils worldwide is key to helping us obtain a livable climate. Allan Savory is winner of the Buckminster Fuller Challenge Award, finalist in the Virgin Earth Challenge, and 2013 TED Speaker.

    http://www.ted.com/profiles/1505378

    http://www.fastcompany.com/1655491/method-turns-wastelands-green-wins-2010-buckminster-fuller-challenge

    http://www.virgin.com/people-and-planet/blog/virgin-earth-challenge-announces-leading-organisations

    http://allansavory.eventbrite.com/#

  90. Bailey Says:

    madmanintheattic, I agree that much of our neurosis stems from our reflexive and reflective self awareness. However, speaking in the first person as representative of one of those crazy humans, I think it is the awareness of our mortality which drives us completely INSANE. This is what produces religions, memorials, methods of postmortem bodily preservation, attachments to ideologies which lead to wars, aggression, and other sorts of ill.

    If we could somehow realize that we are just a breaking wave of the ocean and do not stand independent of it, we might better come to terms with our temporality, because we are no less the ocean..

  91. dairymandave Says:

    @depressive lucidity; The psychopath tendency is in our genes because it works. Some have more or less. Seems the ones with more float to the top like skum. That’s because it works well for capitalism. Doesn’t speak well for capitalism. This tendency plus intelligence plus free abundant energy was bound to end up like this. How could it be any other way? Turned out to be an evolutionary mistake; we destroyed our environment. End of us and the environment which this time includes the whole earth.

    I’m suprised at how many in this group believe in creationism. The key words defining evolution are “variation” and “selection”. Both activities are loaded with lots of deaths. Soon after life began, it became a game of “struggle to eat your neighbors until they eat you”. That’s a good definition of capitalism, I think.

    If some of us can choose to overcome our reptilian tendences and supress them, we can form communities with empathy but there is always another community over the hill that wants our stuff. Remember, it’s a battle for scarce energy. I mean it always was and when the abundant supply is gone, a one time thing, it will again be a battle for scarce energy. (overlooking NTE for sake of argument)

    Farmers are constantly bashed for feeding the world. If we stopped using fuels and fertilizer, half of our land would be used to feed the soil and 1/4 would be used to feed the horses. We would find out how scarce energy really is.

  92. Kathy C Says:

    Tom, in an interview it is easy to miss saying everything you mean to say. Guy lists the 9 feedbacks in this essay

    http://guymcpherson.com/2013/01/climate-change-summary-and-update/

    1. Methane hydrates are bubbling out the Arctic Ocean (Science, March 2010)
    2. Warm Atlantic water is defrosting the Arctic as it shoots through the Fram Strait (Science, January 2011)
    3. Siberian methane vents have increased in size from less than a meter across in the summer of 2010 to about a kilometer across in 2011 (Tellus, February 2011)
    4. Drought in the Amazon triggered the release of more carbon than the United States in 2010 (Science, February 2011)
    5. Peat in the world’s boreal forests is decomposing at an astonishing rate (Nature Communications, November 2011)
    6. Methane is being released from the Antarctic, too (Nature, August 2012)
    7. Russian forest and bog fires are growing (NASA, August 2012)
    8. Cracking of glaciers accelerates in the presence of increased carbon dioxide (Journal of Physics D: Applied Physics, October 2012)
    9. Arctic drilling was fast-tracked by the Obama administration during the summer of 2012

    Someone noted that several of them are methane and thought they should only count as 1, but they are different sources and locations and so I think it is valid to count them separately but you can take that up with Guy if you disagree. The number of feedbacks doesn’t really matter, it is the warming potential that matters.

  93. wildwoman Says:

    For some reason, I awoke with Franklin Lopez on my mind.

    http://submedia.tv/stimulator

    (I hope that works)

    Sing it with me….”it’s the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.”

  94. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Robin

    That’s why it is called the Void – Sunyata, Ein Sof. It is not an object, is opaque. It is beyond logic, appears illogical. It explains nothing as there is nothing besides, and is itself the “nothing”.

    But THAT is not what Madmanintheattic is talking about, no connection, you’re confusing two entirely different usages and contexts and word meanings.

  95. Kathy C Says:

    Peter D, Fetzer does at times seem to go out on the deep end. Some have even suggested that he and Judy Wood are being used to make conspiracy theories seem so crazy that no one will pay attention to the valid questions about events that don’t look right.

    If there is an attempt to create or use such events as Sandy Hook, I am not sure it is for gun control. After all what good is a gun against drones? Tanks? Active denial systems such as sound and laser technology? The new robots, or enhanced soldiers they are working on?

    This may sound crazy but
    1. I heard Sheriff Vance in an interview say they were going to prosecute those who create conspiracy theories on the web. Could they in fact be creating events with obvious questions just to have an excuse to clamp down on conspiracy theorists.
    2. The NRA says cops in schools not gun control. Obama proposes gun controls with cops in schools and says it may be hard to get gun control through congress. Could they be in collusion to begin to put cops everywhere there are mass shootings – schools, movie theaters, malls. This feels more like a police state to me than banning automatic weapons and having stronger checks on who buys guns. Having said that I might get prosecuted on #1 above.

    But in the end it doesn’t matter does it. Its all coming down, rich and poor, powerful and weak, they haven’t seen the full wrath of Mom Earth and they aren’t going to like it. I am reading Peter Ward on the Medea view of nature. I don’t agree with his conclusions about what we should do, but there is a good case to view the world as a Medea not a Gaia. Medea killed her own children.

  96. Kathy C Says:

    Dave “O’m suprised at how many in this group believe in creationism. The key words defining evolution are “variation” and “selection”. Both activities are loaded with lots of deaths. Soon after life began, it became a game of “struggle to eat your neighbors until they eat you”. That’s a good definition of capitalism, I think.”

    Yes, death is what moves evolution forward, both in terms of selective death before reproduction and eventual death to allow room for the next round. When a living being is born the “gift” we give is not just life but also death for the unborn do not die. But I suppose if you went to see a new baby no one would like to hear you say “ah another human that has to die” however true it is :) Time of course to think about that is before you decide to have a child. If in fact NTE is in about 20 years and each year up to that time gets worse in terms of climate and societal chaos, there seems to be no valid reason to conceive anymore.