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Acceptance

Sun, May 25, 2014

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by Pauline Schneider

What is acceptance?

Relinquishing of one’s will?

The cessation of struggling?

The great pause at the moment of silent realization that nothing you do will change the outcome?

Perhaps the most frequent first question Guy gets after talking about human extinction, besides being asked if becoming vegan will help, is this: “If there is nothing we can do, why do you bother telling people? What’s the point of upsetting them?”

“Upsetting people” with the truth has never been a problem before. Do you really think people would have been upset at Paul Revere for announcing that the red coats were coming? However, as ludicrous as it sounds, some people accuse Guy McPherson not only of being upsetting, but of even causing our demise from his travels to spread the truth. Riiiight. Because the carbon footprint of the US military isn’t doing that already … The military that is larger than the next 15 largest the militaries of the world combined. No, it’s one little guy in New Mexico taking planes that were already scheduled to fly that’s ending the world. Will the stupid never end? That’s easy to answer: Yes, it will.

But first you have to forget that the aerosols and sulfates sprayed by planes are, ironically, actually putting off the inevitable warming by reflecting solar energy back into space.

So, fly baby, fly. Extend the misery a little longer.

Let me propose a metaphor for those struggling with the idea of acceptance of near-term human extinction, and there are a bunch of you out there. You know who you are.

Would a person with stage 4 cancer be upset at the doctor who informed her that she had a limited time left in this life? Or would the cancer victim be upset at the cancer?

I would wager that the person would be upset with the many potential causes of the said cancer, and either have regrets (e.g., smoking, red meat) or anger (e.g., 9/11 first responders, Fukushima).

Would the cancer victim then, upon realizing there’s limited time left, work really hard to earn as much money before dying, or would he/she try to spend those last precious days with loved ones (please remember that Breaking Bad is a work of fiction)? Doing incredible things? Visiting magical places? Getting in touch with one’s deeper self?

Would he forgive the trespasses of others and ask for forgiveness? Would this cancer victim struggle to find acceptance of the quickly coming end? Or fight for life to the bitter end?

That is a personal journey we may all have to take someday, maybe sooner than we anticipate. Those end-of-life choices are personal decisions that no one can make for us.

However, we have all seen at least one person or more that we care about face that predictable end and make that difficult choice. Some fought hard, inevitably failing, having wasted precious energy and time (and money) on treatments that have as much effect as doing nothing and leave a person sicker and more miserable. Others instead, embraced the fast-coming outcome and dove head first into life, loving more deeply, experiencing relationships more profoundly and having the time and energy to be present, to be available, to be here now. They relinquished the will to fight, but not the will to live and were the richer for it. Regardless of which path one chooses, the option of a choice must, at the very least, be given. It would be wrong of a doctor not to tell a patient that their days are numbered.

MalpracticeSuite from Pauline Schneider on Vimeo.

To deny anyone the truth of their impending demise is, as Dr Guy McPherson pointed out, nothing short of malpractice. Of course it’s upsetting to know you are going to die. We all realized that upsetting truth at the age of five years or so. Of course it’s upsetting to know your death is coming sooner than anticipated, or that retirement will not be the “golden years” you thought you were going to have with your lover.

But maybe you can use this knowledge as an opportunity and find instead that acceptance of your impending doom might result in a richer experience not only for you, but for those who love you. We are not, after all, islands, although our experience of the world is unique to each of us, as we look out from our personal lenses and perspectives. No two people will have the exact same experience, though it can be close. Ultimately, we each die alone. We each walk into the Abyss alone. Or we each run from it alone.

Acceptance is looking the Abyss in the face and recognizing her for who she is, albeit with fear in our hearts. The idea of dying is scary. However, going permanently extinct is downright terrifying. There are no do-overs with extinction, no lessons learned, no history to ignore and repeat ad nauseam. No one will remember us fondly when we are gone. (Nor should they, if there were anyone left.)

Acceptance is recognizing that nothing we do now can stop the Abyss from embracing us, not solar panels, not recycling, not riding bikes, not going vegan, not protesting, not apps on your phone, nothing.

Nothing will save our sorry skins now. We are 40 years too late responding to the crisis. It’s a terrible truth, but it is the truth. If you still have doubts, read through the “Climate change summary and update” on this website. He didn’t invent those facts. When you’re done reading the list, remember what’s not on it: 90% death rate of honey bees, 50% death of phytoplankton, 90% loss of ocean sea life due to over-fishing, 400+ nuclear power plants that require grid-tied power to prevent them from melting down, and so on. Do you see where I’m going?

The equivalent of this kind of acceptance is similar to being in stage 4 cancer that is rarely if ever cured by the allopathic treatments that may or may not extend the misery, but certainly line the pockets of pharmaceutical companies. A dear friend recently passed of cancer and instead of fighting it, she chose to celebrate her life and go out like the glorious star she always was. She surrounded herself with friends, music and art and touched people’s hearts from across the world.

We can choose to continue to act like whiny fools, pointing fingers and avoiding responsibility, and looking away from the scary truth. Or we can act like the stars we are, gloriously embracing our well-earned fate and our coming return to star dust. We have the chance to say “goodbye, I love you,” to each other before we go. Wouldn’t that be a nice change?

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Pauline Schneider, MA Edu, BA Sociology and Anthropology, AAS in Radio and TV Production, is certified as a Landscape Designer by the New York Botanical Gardens and she specializes in edible forest gardening as developed by permaculturists Eric Toensemeier and David Jacke. A core team member of a Transition Town movement hub in New York’s Westchester County, she has been involved in environmental activism for over two decades. Since hearing Dr McPherson’s lecture on collapse and climate change a year ago, she has been documenting his journeys and interviewing people who have been touched and inspired by his message to “do what you love,” and “be here now”. Both she and Dr McPherson were recently certified as Grief Recovery Method facilitators and held their first workshop in Manglaralto, Ecuador at Catherine Campion’s educational retreat, Tera Nova de Corazon.

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If you have registered, or you intend to register, please send an email message to guy.r.mcpherson@gmail.com. Include the online moniker you’d like to use in this space. I’ll approve your registration as quickly as possible. Thanks for your patience.
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4 June 2014, Wyoming, debate with H. Leighton Steward, who often represents the fossil-fuel industry. Read about Steward here.

Wyoming debate flyer

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Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power and by more than three dozen readers at Amazon.

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69 Responses to “Acceptance”

  1. Sabine Says:

    Yes Pauline, yes, yes yes!

    We are stardust, we are golden but we can’t get ourselves back to the garden.

    That’s why I give a lot of love to my little garden here where most plants and animals still thrive. The number of wild bees and, yes, honey bees from hives in my village, the different kinds of wasps and dragonflies and other buzzing insects and singing birds, too numerous to name, make it easy to pretend on a lovely day that the world is still whole.
    Your message is spot on. Love what you can now. There’s really never been anything else to do.

    My thoughts are with you lovely people wherever you are.

  2. Grant Schreiber Says:

    I keep coming around to the thought that we are abyss we’re looking into. That great empty void is us, and we’re doing our best to suck everything into it.

    My main concerns are: will be I be able to rot where I drop?
    I’d hate for all this good organic material, polluted as it is, of going to waste completely. Secondly, and this is the real sticking point: do I die in the right order? I’d really hate to check out before being certain some major abyss-makers have gone on before me.

    Ah, I really don’t care. But it amuses me anyway.

  3. paul marcotte Says:

    Ahhh, ACCEPTANCE, the best part of this whole story of NTHE as far as I am concerned, as it really helps one to evaluate what is truly important in life going forward. Now, I find myself appreciating the fact that I am alive for yet another day as each one seems even more precious than the day before. But our death denying culture certainly seems to have a problem with acceptance.
    Life can be lived pretty simply as far as I am concerned and perhaps that helps in coming to terms with acceptance.
    Thanks Pauline, for the essay and for documenting Guy’s travels and thanks Guy, for continuing to put the message out there for those who want to listen. Your skin must get thicker by the day. :-)

  4. Robin Datta Says:

    What’s the point of upsetting them?

    The upsetting reason is proximity to disruption. Notice that few are upset at the prospect of the sun becoming a red giant and incinerating the earth in a few billion years, or even the oceans boiling away well before that.

    Getting in touch with one’s deeper self?

    Much like the pot getting in touch with its clay, or the water getting in touch with its wetness. Easy to pontificate about, but the most difficult task one can ever undertake. Yet there is absolutely nothing to be “achieved” or “attained”: water does not attain wetness nor does a pot achieve clayness.

    They relinquished the will to fight,

    What is to be relinquished is the sense of doership, not the actions themselves: the recognition that one’s role is yet another role in the Divine Dream/Play, and all roles are played by none other than Selfsame Divine Dreamer/Playwright.

    “Therefore get up and prepare to fight. After conquering your enemies you will enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you can be but an instrument in the fight.”
    – Bhagavad Gita 11:33

  5. Steven Earl Salmony Says:

    This is not a time to give up or give in. Likely your hopelessness is at least partially driven by the abject failure of so many self-proclaimed experts and other kno…wledgeable people to say out loud what they know to be true about the way the world we inhabit actually works as well as about the placement of human species within the natural order of living things. Not speaking out loudly, clearly and often regarding what is known to be true and real gives rise to the hopelessness so many feel and to the false idea that there is nothing we can do. Perhaps the silence of so many ‘plays the lead role’ when it comes to killing the world as we know it. Not speaking truth to the powerful is unethical, morally outrageous, intellectually dishonest and a preposterous failure of nerve. Never in the course of human events have human failings had such profound implications for the future of life on Earth.
    Steven Earl Salmony
    AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population
    established 2001
    Chapel Hill, NC

    PS: I do not have to win or even believe I will win the human-induced struggle that is presented to all of us in order to speak openly, honestly and hopefully “the whole truth” about what could be real.

    Hopeless > stevenearlsalmony • 4 days ago

    What an eloquent description of the situation. The subject is taboo across all disciplines. No environmental orgs will touch it — even Zero Population Growth has disappeared. Talk about ignoring the gigantic elephant in the living room. What a bizarre species we are…and one that has limited time on the planet. Sadly we are taking many, many other species with us.

    stevenearlsalmony • 12 days ago

    What is true, real and somehow right can never be trivial. And yet ‘the brightest and best’ ignore, avoid and willfully refuse to examine, discuss and report on all as well as, perhaps, the best scientific research on the subject of human population dynamics. Knowledge of the population dynamics of the human species remains off limits, a taboo even among those in the newly established ‘Scientific Consensus on…Humanity…’, the relatively ‘ancient’ Royal Society, the modern American Academy for the Advancement of Science, other national academies of science, the Union of Concerned Scientists, demographers and economists everywhere. When and where are the self-proclaimed experts in population biology, other sciences and relevant disciplines going to openly acknowledge the uncontested scientific evidence of human population dynamics that appears to disclose simply and elegantly how human population dynamics is essentially common to, not different from, the population dynamics of other species; how human population numbers appear as a function of an available food supply? How more food equals more people; less food equals less people; and no food, no people.
    Are the overproduction, overconsumption and overpopulation activities of many too many people not the primary problem confronting humankind in our time? Scientists have been seeing what is happening during the past 70 years as human population numbers skyrocketed worldwide. Scientists have been regularly reporting this widely shared and consensually validated scientific knowledge. But that is not the end of the story. There is at least one other question to ask that calls out to us for an answer, a question that any reasonable and sensible person would ask, I suppose. And that question is, “Why is the human population on Earth exploding? Why?” The question is straightforward. Where are the scientists with knowledge concerning why the global human population is skyrocketing on our watch? They are electively mute.Their conscious and deliberate collusion makes it possible for silence to prevail over science. This cannot be construed as correct behavior, especially by top-rank scientists. In diametrical opposition to the evolution of science extant, uncontested research related to the question of ‘why’ has been ubiquitously avoided or denied by many too many of the very experts on human population matters who are in agreement about ‘what is happening’ regarding the unbridled colossal growth of the human population on Earth. If science of ‘why global human population numbers are exploding’ is willfully ignored, how is the human community ever to respond ably to emergent and convergent human-induced threats to future human well being and environmental health? How can we speak about the necessity for advances in science, for fidelity to scientific facts and truth, for the individual and collective will to go wheresoever the evidence leads while first class scientists with appropriate expertise deny scientific evidence of human population dynamics/overpopulation? For self-proclaimed experts to refuse to examine and share findings of scientific research regarding ‘why the human population is exploding’ has got to be overcome, fast. Such a breach of one’s duty to science & humanity is a personal and collective betrayal of both.

    stevenearlsalmony • 12 days ago

    http://planet3.org/2013/05/30/

    Hope on Earth: A Conversation | MAHB

    mahb.stanford.edu

    Steven Earl Salmony A comment from a remarkably astute observer and friend…. Just to jump in to the discussion: Every so often this group hits the target. This amounts to an eloquent prologue for a undescribed action that should follow. But closer to a bulls eye would be something like a revolution.

    But now we hit a wall, a singularity moment, where we know something big and important has to happen, will happen — we don’t know or agree just what, or perhaps we know, but are afraid to describe the ruthless immensity of the purpose driven change needed. The horror is – we know huge changes loom — generally predictable but not specifics of time or event. We can influence so little. But we are unable to call for changes to mitigate the looming decimation.

    Our impact will be minute – we might mitigate global warming so slightly as to permit a select sample of multigenerational humanity to survive. Otherwise we are condemned to silently witnessing our demise – and by our silence, hastening it somewhat.

    I am struck by the descriptions of various revolutions – where historians note that no one caught up in them knows they are revolutions, nor knows what that means, or what must come next. They know only that change must come, and so pushed forward with a different way of doing things. Perhaps called revolutions by their success, otherwise they would be a failed loss. Now comes the great test of our civilization, whether it can change sufficiently to allow human survival. I don’t think pure wealth will suffice. Nor ruthless power. Although wealth and power will positively bias short term survival for some – unless it is so organized and refocused – it means little for the survival of the human species.

    Our planet is locked in to warming of 3° to 10° C no matter what we do about it. And the higher heating would assure violent extinction. The lower end merely great suffering and loss. We appear to be making choices that increase danger. It is a poor response to argue about the scientific validity of the projections. As if to see a house on fire, with far more fuel inside, instead of applying water, we try to exclaim and explain that it is not really aflame. Our house is next, and within, we don’t have enough denial left for facing that.

    We have describe it well, we are fully engaged in losing the first great battle – the battle of perception. Since the 1980s – where media consolidation completely dominated and controlled messages we receive – we have lost the battle for truth or even open minded perception. But our defeat has been painless, accompanied by growing affluence, we have been surviving against a real enemy that contains and controls our mass communication. Carbon commerce has built its own media empires, and now completely dominates.

    So now we are left to observe or witness – that our friendly media enemy has been promoting so much commerce that the real harms of overpopulation and climate change are side effects, collateral damage. Now the only hope is that mass media simply surrenders to the reality of the situation – and now must change completely to promote survival messages. All mass media turn around… like it did in WW2. Nothing will change until overwhelming message-making compels it. We can see the need, we can demand it, but until all mass media compels and promote fundamental changes, until then we are losing the battle to slow down our demise.

    It just does not seem very likely. Indeed it may be a losing battle. In which case all we can do is witness. “There are now more 22 year olds in America, than any other age.” They must decide to radically change in ways that amount to revolutions. All we can do is exhort behavior that encourages survival.

    Future, historians deciding our tumult was a revolution, means purposeful change would have succeeded. Whereas, extinction will be unrecognized, undescribed from within.

    Interesting times.

    Richard Pauli

    http://climatemanifesto.com/

    Climate Manifesto climatemanifesto.com

    climate manifesto political action for the future

  6. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    How We Decide

    Events like becoming resigned
    Arise from brain parts combined;
    The result they promote
    Is determined by vote
    In the Society of Mind.

    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Mind

  7. kevin moore Says:

    I was asked a few days ago: “What do you do?” (The questioner expecting an answer of salesman, builder, driver, computer technician etc. of course.)

    I replied: “I try to pull people out of the Matrix.” I them spent about 20 minutes explaining what the Matrix was and why most people were trapped in it, and explained that attempting to pull people from the Matrix is a difficult and time-consuming undertaking.

    Acceptance: for most people in western nations acceptance means acceptance of being continually lied to and robbed by psychotic sociopaths without question.

    For most people living in western societies acceptance means accepting a constant stream of lies from the government and the corporate media. It means being an obedient slave to a system which is slowly poisoning them and making them ill, and is in the process of making the Earth largely uninhabitable.

    If most people are prepared to accept being lied to and poisoned, how are they going to accept that the system is in the process of terminating life-as-we-know-it on this planet, and every day the system continues to operate brings forward the period when life gets terminated en mass?

    I will be talking to NPDC later today about related topics: most of those I will be addressing have already got their earplugs prepared, doing exactly what they are required to do in order to get their short-term rewards.

  8. Landbeyond Says:

    @Steven Earl Salmony:

    “Zero Population Growth” appears to have become populationconnection.org.

  9. Robin Datta Says:

    Not speaking out loudly, clearly and often regarding what is known to be true and real gives rise to the hopelessness so many feel and to the false idea that there is nothing we can do.

    Au contraire, hopelessness comes from an absence of expectation, and is invincible in modulating behaviour. It is not to be confused with despair, which is thwarted expectation. The straw man of “nothing we can do” only works against those whose actions are motivated by expectations, not against those who act in accordance with rational anticipations but without expectations.

    When and where are the self-proclaimed experts in population biology, other sciences and relevant disciplines going to openly acknowledge the uncontested scientific evidence of human population dynamics that appears to disclose simply and elegantly how human population dynamics is essentially common to, not different from, the population dynamics of other species; how human population numbers appear as a function of an available food supply?

    Not self-proclaimed by any means, but
    this one
    has been around for quite a while. And he ain’t a one-trick population dog. For a pdf of the item, change the “htm” in the URL to “pdf”. And for those who have enough synapses to understand, food supply is dependent on energy flows.

    “Why is the human population on Earth exploding? Why?”

    Exploding energy flows. Exploding energy flows. A profligacy enabled by the fossil fuel bonanza.

    we might mitigate global warming so slightly as to permit a select sample of multigenerational humanity to survive.

    Obviously the customer who came up with that idea ain’t heard of the choir of F(eedback/at) L(oops/adies) that have begun to sing.

    The lower end merely great suffering and loss.

    Seems like some folks are short on synapses, or else haven’t heard the singing of The Clathrates or the rest of the choir of Fat Feedback Loop Ladies.

    we have lost the battle for truth or even open minded perception.

    That is because those doing battle need the truth and open minded perception themselves in the first place.

    until all mass media compels and promote fundamental changes,

    I try to pull people out of the Matrix.

    Actually we are all in a Matrix, a Play, a Dream. While efforts to move folks around are highly commendable, all they do is move people from one part to another. A more radical idea would be to try to wake up IN the Dream, the Play, the Matrix. There is no “outside” to it.

  10. Robin Datta Says:

    until all mass media compels and promote fundamental changes,

    The time for changes from the mass media is long over. Moreover mass media does not compel changes. The paper boy or the cable company does not send out goons with guns. That authority is reserved by the state. The changes now are from the Feedback Fat Loops Ladies choir. Not even all the states with all their guns can halt it.

  11. tom Says:

    BRAVO PAULINE !

    And, picking up some true navigation skills while embodied, wholly alters ones flight when disembodied.

    No ‘pilots license’ here…, none there.

    Hint : love is the software, body or not !

    Sincerely,

    A Bio-Physicist

  12. mo flow Says:

    there is no Matrix.

    the real conspiracy is that you, I or anyone else has been fooled into giving such a damn about something that is an illusion.

    the only way anyone has any kind of power over my “reality” is if I accept the illusion as the truth. but that is my choice. that is anyone’s choice, who is here on earth, or playing pretend games anywhere else, on any level – any part of Consciousness that is playing this game, anywhere.

    if I want to play the game, I only have to temporarily surrender my power as Infinite Being and pretend I am limited being, in one form or another. this works for me right now on multiple levels, otherwise I wouldn’t be here.

    this choice changes nothing about the true nature of things. the fact that I am pretending to be some form of limited being does NOT mean that I have surrendered my right to choose otherwise, whenever I wish.

    the illusion has lots of appeal in all kinds of diversionary, thrilling, annoying, tragic, fun and exciting ways, but that is beside the ultimate point – it is an illusion, start to finish.

    acceptance? acceptance of WHAT?

    “acceptance” is just an experience. “non-acceptance” is another experience. denial, fighting, cluelessness, grief, surrender, speaking out, staying silent, denunciation, judgment, unconditional love, pure joy, brutal sadism and horrific torture, starvation, greed, pure selfishness, pure selflessness – all experiences that Consciousness has chosen for itself.

    all equally desired.

    if you want to face something really scary, face the total reality that this is the truth.

    embrace this reality, and then move on. move on, with your eyes more open.

    face the reality that Infinite Being is just as interested in experiencing death, horror and total extinction as it is in experiencing life, love and joy.

    embrace that reality, and then move on!! move on, with your heart more open.

    now that we know it is GAME OVER, I do think it would be much more fun to start moving on – for real.

    wake up and smell the true unsanity!!

    there is no Matrix.

    there is no trap to escape from! why are we worried about living OR dying?

    there is no life or death!

    there is only the earth-shattering freedom of Infinite Being, if you want to choose it.

    just dare it, even though you may be facing something far beyond your worst nightmare and far beyond your most secret heart’s desire.

    right here, right now, living the Infinite, in your finite human form.

    choose it, because you can.

  13. mt Says:

    A week with family and friends (their friends, not mine) just ended. There is no wonder I do not get away often. I get out a lot, I just don’t go far.
    I’ll be blunt: PEOPLE ARE NUTS!
    I met up with nearly a dozen adults and kids. No one, but me, thought much of Climate Change. I was thoroughly ostracized by the week’s end. I was met with everything from outright denial, “Climate Change is a hoax.”, to, “The ice isn’t melting,” and, “The Earth is cooling.” By Sunday I was referred to as the “Nut.”
    We are seriously doomed folks.

  14. NUNO Says:

    We are having a hot May here in Rio de Janeiro, when it’s supposed to be cold and rainny, it’s hot.

    Thanks for the text Pauline, very good.

    I learned what acceptance means when I was close to die 15 years ago, and it really shift your way of living. My wife get’s puzzled when she catch me looking at a simple bird with a face of pure satisfation and happiness. There’s great plenty beauty in the “presence” of a little sparrow in the grass on a morning, and if you are in the rigth state of mind you can look at it for hours without getting tired.

    To accept that all humankind will dissapear soon can be a flick of a switch to the way you look at the world, in a positive way, you can start to give importance to what’s really important, that is the present moment as it is, and live the short time left with full intensity and wisdom.

    Sadly I see great violence coming when the shortage of food, water, energy,etc will begin. The great majority of the population will turn into despair, and panic will be the answer to it. Nowhere to run, no place to hide…

    I hope that carrying that message of acceptance can turn the last moments of many people into their best time in a very positive way.

  15. kevin moore Says:

    I went to a ‘shaping our future together community conversation’ at a local parents centre this morning involving the mayor, several councillors and a few council officers.

    I was the only member of the public to turn up; how’s that for community engagement?

    After about 15 minutes the council people were in favour of leaving because they had ‘things to do’.

    I pointed out that they had scheduled 9.00 to 10: 30 to have a conversation, and therefore should have a conversation. That idea went down like lead balloon. However, I was able to make several important points to several key personnel before the stampede for the door commenced.

    Round two: later today in the Council Chamber, where a stampede for the exit in the face of unpalatable facts will be harder for them to execute.

  16. Glo Webel Says:

    Thank you Pauline. I came upon Guy’s talks a year from this past February. Eye opening to say the least…which was ironic since I was home healing from a detached retina and the unexpected passing of my dog companion 4 days after my eye surgery…I was grieving and worried about going blind and how I would manage…It was a huge lesson, so I thought, in “acceptance”. You put it so perfectly in your initial comment, “The great pause at the moment of silent realization that nothing you do will change the outcome?” So in my half blind state listening to Guy’s revelations grieving the loss of everything became the task to healing. It was a winter, spring, summer, and fall of clumsy grief work. I can say now looking back that I have turned the corner and feel a more lasting calm and acceptance, being the treasured end stage. Having many years of 12 step recovery with the practice of acceptance and gratitude I knew a path…What has drawn me to love the work that Guy and you have been doing is it’s telling Truth. It’s honoring our humanness, our fallibility and it’s really keeping it quite simple yet encompassing much great wisdom from so many Sages. I find acts of love and kindness do much to calm my unbidden fears even among strangers. My blessing to you and Guy for all you are doing to help people see, feel, and know the truth of what we are facing so we can meet the inevitable with love not fear. With love and deep respect, Glo

  17. Robin Datta Says:

    freedom of Infinite Being, if you want to choose it.

    There is neither an “Infinite Being” nor a “you” nor a “want” nor a “choose” nor an “it”.

    Aloneness (kaivalya) excludes all of these. So does “no soul” (anatta). Both are very foreign concepts to those raised in imperialist pretences to religion.

    Diamond Sutra – A New Translation by Alex Johnson Chapter 14.:

    “if they continue to hold onto arbitrary conceptions as to their own selfhood, they will be holding onto something that is non-existent. It is the same with all arbitrary conceptions of other selves, living beings, or a universal self. These are all expressions of non-existent things.”

  18. lark Says:

    Just thought I’d repost here – that’s my 2 for today.

    Benjamin, you’re an inspiration.

    All the most honest truth seekers
    say that we have become the Earth’s wreckers.
    Life is good and were fucked,
    so good-bye and good luck,
    cuz’ the future couldn’t look any bleaker.

  19. artleads Says:

    “What is to be relinquished is the sense of doership, not the actions themselves: the recognition that one’s role is yet another role in the Divine Dream/Play, and all roles are played by none other than Selfsame Divine Dreamer/Playwright.

    “Therefore get up and prepare to fight. After conquering your enemies you will enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you can be but an instrument in the fight.”
    – Bhagavad Gita 11:33

    Thanks.

  20. pauline Says:

    @Sabine,
    thank you sister star dust!

    @Grant Schreiber,
    “we are abyss we’re looking into”

    Yes!!

    @Paul Marcotte,
    Thank you, dear Paul, for your friendship and wisdom!

    @Robin Datta
    Ever poetic and wise, art thou. Beautifully said.
    “What is to be relinquished is the sense of doership, not the actions themselves: the recognition that one’s role is yet another role in the Divine Dream/Play, and all roles are played by none other than Selfsame Divine Dreamer/Playwright.”

    @ Steven Earl Salmony
    Read Robin’s reply to your comment. :) I concur with Robin.

    @Kevin Moore
    keep on pulling em out! It is worthwhile, though thankless, work. :)

    @tom
    THANK YOUUUU! ☺

    @Mo flow
    “face the reality that Infinite Being is just as interested in experiencing death, horror and total extinction as it is in experiencing life, love and joy”

    Yes! Yes! Yes!

    @mt
    ouch! Do we have the same friends and family?

    @NUNO
    Thank you for that beautiful sharing. The moment you describe watching the bird is called Satori in Zen. A moment of pure blissful peace and enlightenment.
    I look for them too. Today I had a Satori moment while scything my lawn. Bliss.

    From Wikipedia: Satori is often used interchangeably with kenshō.[2] Kenshō refers to the perception of the Buddha-Nature or emptiness. According to some authors, kenshō is a brief glimpse, while satori is considered to be a deeper spiritual experience.[citation needed]

    @Kevin Moore
    re “community”
    Ask me about my four chickens and “community” sometime.
    I hear you, my friend.

    @Glo
    thank you so much for your kind words and blessings. I was touched, like you, by the truth that Guy shared a year ago this month in my town, and like you, I plunged into grief for a long time mourning the loss of everything. I missed being present, because the sorrow was so overwhelming. Then the blinding anger came, anger at those who still lied, knowing the truth, anger at those who purposely misled and deceived people with few intellectual resources and even less desire to scrape the surface with simple questions.

    When acceptance came, it was a bittersweet embrace, a handshake between death and life, light and darkness, good and evil.
    It was just like mo flow said above: “face the reality that Infinite Being is just as interested in experiencing death, horror and total extinction as it is in experiencing life, love and joy”

  21. Bat Masterson Jr. Says:

    We were all going to die anyway. At least those of us who hang around for another decade or two will get to see some really freaky Michael Bay kind of Armageddon stuff.

  22. mo flow Says:

    Robin –

    There is neither an “Infinite Being” nor a “you” nor a “want” nor a “choose” nor an “it”.

    yes, these are all words. you know as well as I do that it is very possible to communicate with words about something which is not words,/i> but experience.

    there is neither Dreamer/Playwright or Dream/Play. both of these are illusions. there is something that is beyond all this, and we get to choose how we wish to communicate about it, here on a forum. enjoy the ride.

    “if they continue to hold onto arbitrary conceptions as to their own selfhood…”

    again, correct. it is not about “holding onto” – it is about letting go of. hence my nickname here.

    “Herein lies the secret of immortality: we are immortal not by holding on, but by letting go. Whatever we master, we need not cling to; we can always create is anew, thanks to the creative power of the sovereign spirit within us.”

    ~Lama Anagarika Govinda, Creative Meditation and Multi-Dimensional Consciousness

    an absolutely brilliant book. all more words.

  23. mt Says:

    Guy,
    How DO you do it?
    Six days and I was ready to pull my hair out?
    Six days of made-up “facts”.
    Six days of unreasonable unreason.
    Six days of listening to people pull things out of their asses.
    Six days of pure insanity.
    I can’t do it, I fail.

  24. mo flow Says:

    Robin –

    There is neither an “Infinite Being” nor a “you” nor a “want” nor a “choose” nor an “it”.

    yes, these are all words. you know as well as I do that it is very possible to communicate with words about something which is not words, but experience.

    there is neither Dreamer/Playwright or Dream/Play. both of these are illusions. there is something that is beyond all this, and we get to choose how we wish to communicate about it, here on a forum. enjoy the ride.

    “if they continue to hold onto arbitrary conceptions as to their own selfhood…”

    again, correct. it is not about “holding onto” – it is about letting go of. hence my nickname here.

    “Herein lies the secret of immortality: we are immortal not by holding on, but by letting go. Whatever we master, we need not cling to; we can always create is anew, thanks to the creative power of the sovereign spirit within us.”

    ~Lama Anagarika Govinda, Creative Meditation and Multi-Dimensional Consciousness

    an absolutely brilliant book. all more words – this time fixed to correct improperly closed tags.

  25. Henry Says:

    To Benjamin, I’ll say you’re no Donkite,

    For around you I feel much more wonkite.

    So if our species goes fizz,

    Well, that’s just the way it is,

    And a tear from dear old Walter Cronkite.

  26. Bernhard Says:

    @ Robin Datta

    “A more radical idea would be to try to wake up IN the Dream, the Play, the Matrix. There is no “outside” to it.”

    Yes true, there is no outside. And very interesting thought to wake within that dream; To me actually nightmare (and at the same time adoring life in all it’s forms, the oneness within ever more, ever deeper,…).

    Then waking in the dream, on and off, over a life time was and is still walking (and ever trying to not freak out) between different worlds, where attempts to share, even in self-proclaimed “enlightened” circles proved and proves so futile.

    Apologies for being so personal about this, this thought of being/becoming wide awake within the dream opens some options.

    Thank you.
    Peace.

  27. Paul f. Getty Says:

    Fortunately, the origin of the Ukrainian civil war is remarkably well-documented in tapped phone-conversations and in cell-phone videos that have been posted online for all the world to see, despite what might have been the intentions of the planners and of the perpetrators. This cannot be a pleasant reality for U.S. President Barack Obama, and for his Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and Asia, Victoria Nuland. President Obama might wish his employee, Nuland, to take all the blame for his policy on Ukraine, but he’s not firing her. It’s his policy, not hers. She was hired to do this, and so she is.

    “US support of violent neo-Nazis in Ukraine: Video Compilation” is an hour-long documentary, dated 18 March 2014, which covers the background of the U.S. overthrow of the democratically elected pro-Russian President of Ukraine, which took place in December 2013 through February 2014, under the cover of popular anti-corruption “Euro-Maidan” demonstrations against that elected President, who (like all of his post-USSR predecessors) was corrupt. The documentary was produced by stpetes4peace, and it uses mainly film-clips of the actual events in Ukraine, coming from Russian government TV (RT) and from British government TV (BBC).

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-the-ukrainian-civil-war-started/5383982

  28. Paul f. Getty Says:

    Sorry, the above was meant for another blog……but still worthwhile information.

  29. Tom Says:

    Thanks Pauline – good work!

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/size-derivatives-bubble-hanging-global-economy-hits-record-high.html

    The Size Of The Derivatives Bubble Hanging Over The Global Economy Hits A Record High

    The global derivatives bubble is now 20 percent bigger than it was just before the last great financial crisis struck in 2008. It is a financial bubble far larger than anything the world has ever seen, and when it finally bursts it is going to be a complete and utter nightmare for the financial system of the planet. According to the Bank for International Settlements, the total notional value of derivatives contracts around the world has ballooned to an astounding 710 trillion dollars ($710,000,000,000,000). Other estimates put the grand total well over a quadrillion dollars. [Background.] If that sounds like a lot of money, that is because it is. For example, U.S. GDP is projected to be in the neighborhood of around 17 trillion dollars for 2014. So 710 trillion dollars is an amount of money that is almost incomprehensible. Instead of actually doing something about the insanely reckless behavior of the big banks, our leaders have allowed the derivatives bubble and these banks to get larger than ever. [Background.] In fact, as I have written about previously, the big Wall Street banks are collectively 37 percent larger than they were just prior to the last recession. “Too big to fail” is a far more massive problem than it was the last time around, and at some point this derivatives bubble is going to burst and start taking those banks down. When that day arrives, we are going to be facing a crisis that is going to make 2008 look like a Sunday picnic. [For background on why derivatives are so dangerous, read this, this and this.] {see article}

    http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2014/05/rachel-carson-and-legacy-silent

    Rachel Carson And The Legacy Of ‘Silent Spring’

    Bill Moyers Journal looks at the life and legacy of Rachel Carson through an extraordinary portrayal of her in a one-woman play performed by veteran stage actress Kaiulani Lee.

  30. Rick Says:

    Pauline,
    It occurred to me while taking in your essay and your reply above that it seems to speak to our linear way of seeing things. At least it illuminated that for me. But in my experience the grief, acceptance, anger, etc. keep getting stirred up like so much silt on the bottom every time a deluge (read flush) occurs. Maybe it’s different than before, but awareness of our predicament and the ongoing responsibility of bearing witness to the carnage continues to present challenges to cope with. Never mind the frustration of attempting to wake others up. Thanks for all you do and all you are. The world is definitely better with you in it. As much as I appreciate Guy’s continued work at delivering the message, I want to thank you for working so hard to help him get the word out. Thank you.

  31. Paul Chefurka Says:

    Pauline, what a powerful, insightful essay!

    I’ve found that coming to an acceptance of (or even better, equanimity with) the situation required me to do an awful lot of work on myself. My values, attitudes, reactions, and my entire worldview had to change.

    The radical worldview that I’ve been piecing together for the last year and a half is based on this hypothesis: The operation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in open systems is the singular universal principle that underlies and enables life itself, including genetics, natural selection, the structure and life cycle of all complex systems, as well as most species-level behavior – including both the glorious and shameful aspects of human behavior.

    It seems likely that what I’ve stumbled across is a scientific framing of the traditional, intuitively-sensed concepts of prana, chi and “élan vital.” In other words, this thermodynamic principle is in fact the life-force that suffuses the universe and animates all living things as well as all inanimate energy-flow processes like galaxies, stars and weather.

    No wonder the concept has felt so powerful, and has enabled me to be at peace with the situation, no matter how it unfolds.

  32. Sabine Says:

    @ NUNO

    I also want to thank you for sharing your moment watching the sparrow. Here in Northern Europe where I live, they are on the endangered list. I have them nesting in my garden and love to listen to their chatter which can go on for hours.

    As Pauline said, it’s a something Zen Buddhism recognizes. I also have these moments in the morning, when I watch the birds from my kitchen window, a feeling of total awareness and being connected. My feeling is that people who can experience moments (or even longer) like that don’t need drugs, pharmaceutical or otherwise, to feel truly alive.
    You can do it, and I hope that your wife may learn it too.

  33. mt Says:

    Pauline
    got a chance to read your whole essay—loved it—look forward to more.

  34. thestormcrow Says:

    To mt,
    regarding the difficultly of spending time with people who don’t want to hear anything about what we are facing:
    When people get to the stage where they start making fun of what I am saying and resort to calling me crazy or a gullible fool who believes all of those “Al Gore” stories, I have taken to just ending the conversation by smiling and saying,

    “You may not believe in Climate Change, but it believes in You!”

  35. mt Says:

    @thestormcrow
    I’ll try that.

  36. ulvfugl Says:

    @ logspirit

    As your comment is totally off topic here,(as well as being grossly offensive to me personally, in that you are TELLING me what I should and should not do, regarding my personal health, well-being, lifestyle morals and philosophy, etc), I suggest you should have put your comment onto the forum where Deb started a thread specifically addrssed to the issue.

    http://guymcpherson.com/forum/index.php?topic=669.0

    You ended on a really nice tone, painting a very idyllic picture of perfect rolling pastures and a theoretically sustainable lifestyle. That lifestyle led up to what we have now. People and planet sick.

    No, it most certainly did not. There are various theories as to what has lead to what we have no, and no consensus. Some believe, like Gail Wit’s End believe that we inevitably destroy our environment, and that our fate was sealed as soon as we evolved and became hunters. Others believe it began with cities and civilisation, others with industrialisation and capitalism.

    My argument is that there was a time when we were part of the natural ecology, just as all other life forms are.

    If we had wanted to continue and not to wreck the biosphere and cause our own demise, we’d have needed to understand that. That would have meant that our life support systems would have had to mimic the natural systems. For example, replacing wild forest with forest gardens, rather than concrete and tarmac. That sort of thing.

    We departed, progressibvely, from the systems that I am talking about a long time ago, although they have survived in some places right up until the present.

    Anyway, like I say, nice picture, enhanced by leaving out the reality of the feedlots without which few would be eating meat. Such a pretty picture, so going back into discussion seems a bit uncouth… oh! who would dare to shatter such an illusion? Ahem, there were some unanswered questions and presumptions.

    You appear to be talking about the USA, and attempting to suggest I am in favour of feedlots, which is insulting and disingenuous, because, ever since I made the first comment on this topic, I have stated emphatically that I am opposed to intensive agribiz and animal cruelty in all its forms.

    “What can I do to assist the other species ?” You can start acknowledging the impact of eating meat from an ecocentric perspective. Consider the contrast with the egocentric predatory lifestyle that’s been wiping out the Earth. Realize meat consumption contributes 51% of our climate catastrophe.

    This is rubbish. If you really cared about the Long Horn Old English Cattle, as I do, then you would want them to exist and have lives.

    You don’t give a shit about them. All that you care about it your mindless fanatical dogmatic vegan propaganda which stops you being able to think.

    I do not accept that eating meat contributes 51% of the climate catastrophe. Back that up with scientific citations.

    Do you use any leather products ? Do use any animal products ?

    If you use any, then you are a hypocrite. If you use none, then why are you using any PLASTIC products ?

    Because 100% of the climate catastrophe comes from fossil fuels, and by using plastics, by YOUR logic, you are encouraging the fossil fuel industries.

    Meanwhile, you still have not explained your bizarre position: That “using hi tech agri biz methods with fertilisers and machinery and pesticides from fossil fuels” …is the only way to grow enough food to feed everyone. Instead, you made another bazaar claim that I wasn’t addressing you. Well, I certainly did address you, I even quoted you.

    Because that was NOT what I said.

    “you STILL have to keep it [industrial civilization] intact to feed the people” No, we need local organic gardens. We need many people growing plant based food for themselves and their neighbors. It can and is being done, even on small plots and rooftops in cities. Maybe not you, but the uninitiated are amazed at how much good tasting nourishing food can be grown in a small area using intensive organic methods. Vegan diets from local organic gardens save energy and water — and reduce carbon dioxide and methane emissions. But you know big ag and big supermarket chains don’t like it when people grow their own food. Especially when it is organic… and they really don’t like it when people grow their own plant based food and save their own seeds. Nope, then these bastions of industrial civilization lose some of their customers. The drug companies don’t like it. The fossil fuel industry doesn’t like it. Truckers don’t like it. Major, radical impacts from people choosing to go vegan and growing their own food. Want to give Monsanto a combo punch? – Go Vegan and Save Seeds. Humanure closes the loop. Biochar sequesters.

    You expect me to reply to this patronising rubbish, logspirit ?

    Surely, you have been here long enough to know that I am quite well versed in the technical issues regarding our global predicament.

    And there you go again, conflating evolution with a meat (fire) based diet. Tisk tisk. The time spans don’t match. Evolution takes longer than that – and has actually gone in the opposite direction even just judging by our teeth and claws. You say we ‘evolved’ to eat like lions. OK, go right over there to that cute cow sitting right there and just bite right into her pretty little neck. I’m sure she won’t mind a bit. Probably tickle. Hmmm… La vache qui rit.

    You are scientifically illiterate. I did not ‘conflate evolution with a meat (fire) based diet.’

    What I said is that, right up until the time that we first developed agriculture, c. approx 10,000 BCE, we were eating animals. As well as plants, fruits, grains, fish, molluscs, etc.

    You will not find any dispute about this in the scientific archaeological and anthropological community, because the evidence is irrefutable.

    Wtf do you mean ‘evolution takes longer than that’ ? What do you mean by evolution ? What do you mean by ‘longer than’ ? Longer than WHAT ?

    We have genetic mutations all the time. People have been evolving all the time. Humans are 90% bacteria. Your digestion and nutrition depends on the flora and fauna in your gut. They evolve. There are three major ecologies on the planet. They are different, suited to different diets.

    Then you ignore the medical evidence telling us meat makes people sick. Evidence, plenty of evidence and common sense informing us that meat is not the right food for human beings.

    I don’t ignore it. I don’t find it convincing.

    Right, you’re not a gladiator or mma fighter… you’re fundamentally different and so what works for them couldn’t possibly also work for you. Besides, you wouldn’t want to be as strong as a gladiator or as fit and healthy as an mma fighter. Too far out of character.

    That’s such a childish retort that it does deserve a reply. I explained to you, I do not begin from a personal position, an egocentric position, as to what is good for ME, or even what is good for PEOPLE, I begin from an ecocentric position, as ‘What would be best for the other species ?’

    If I was a fucking fashion model I could begin from ‘What diet would give me a fabulous complexion and a slim figure ?’

    I have gone out of my way to give you a friendly heads up on how meat is hurting you…

    Oh fuck off, logspirit, don’t be so fucking condescending. How would you know anyway ? You’ve only eaten vegan food for 40 years, so you have no idea what difference a different dietary regime would make.

    If I had ASKED your advice, that would have been okay, but I never asked for ANY guidance about my health or my diet, and your attitude is way out of order.

    and all you do is scream at me… like, well, like a meat head.

    Scream at you ? Nothing to do with being a meathead. It’s your disgraceful evangelising that is infuriating me, and deserves a good kicking. You think that you can persuade me by high pressure sales techniques, to change what I put into my mouth ?

    But I’ll say it anyway… a bit of free advice… (go ahead, throw it in the gutter) Those migraines you suffer from have a high probability of association with a flesh based diet: “The benefits of a change in diet are not limited to migraine patients. I usually see complete relief of headaches of most kinds—even those with no name or identified cause—within days after a change in diet. ~ John A. McDougall, M.D., another vegan medical doctor.

    Yes, well you know what you can do with your ‘free advice’, don’t you.

    It STINKS, logspirit. It’s pure charlatan bullshit.

    You think, after having this Cluster Headache affliction for more than 50 years – ‘possibly the most painful known to medical science’ – that I am not smart enough to have checked out my fucking DIET, you patronising fucking MORON ! And written down everything I ate, every day, for years, to see what effect it had ?

    UNLIKE you who has not tried different diets to see what a control test diet might be like, and just repeats unverifiable crap, I have tried all kinds of varied diets, to see what effect they’d have.

    As far as I’m concerned, you’re just like all the other religious loons who are obsessed with a fanatical ‘rightness’ and you need the power buzz to push your beliefs onto others. It’s no different to having Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons at the door trying to ‘save’ me, only with you, it’s fucking veganism.

    I don’t care what you eat, logspirit, and I take full responsibility for my own diet and health and everything else in my life. If I wanted your advice, I’d have asked for it.

    The argument that I was making for eating meat was part of a wholly integrated way for people to live in harmony with the Mother Earth the created us all, that had deep love and respect for my fellow creatures. You seem too stupid and unsophisticated in your thinking to get any of it.

  37. treenoise Says:

    This planet has had the history that it has had. Humans have come into being and they have behaved the way they have behaved. Next, will we get to uncover whatever allowed these events that we are about to leave behind? Are we about to morph (anew?) and embark on a new cosmic adventure?

  38. Wester Says:

    I am in Thailand and living through a very fascist military coup. I have nowhere to go, as I have planted myself here. First time back online since last week.

    Thailand situation update: top reporter in unknown location, top academics in unknown location, entire leadership of last elected political party in unknown location, top union organizer now in prison for 14 year term, his wife and son now in unknown location, leading poor people’s ghetto activist in unknown location, opposition legal team in unknown location, Red Shirt pro-democracy activists in Ubon and other places around the country rounded up and held in unknown location, business leaders who supported an elected government and voting system in unknown location. Education minister of the last elected government was seized by soldiers while speaking at the Foreign Correspondents Club today. Constitution (bad as it was) scrapped, both houses of legislature dissolved, election annulled, no definite election in foreseeable future. US embassy issues statement saying they are “concerned”. The former elected Prime Minister Yingluck supposedly has been released.

    Sorry, but I now finding the commentary here at NBL sort of banal and self-absorbed. I do appreciate many of the things I have gleaned here over the years. But, sorry to break it, you can bet your white asses that I am not “accepting” jack – listed above or anything else – and that I will be going down fighting. Thank you. Best of luck in all things

    We Will Not Sit Down And We Will Not Shut Up

  39. G. H. George Says:

    Given NTHE, feeling good is all that matters.

    Eat, drink and be happy.

    Swim in the ocean, hike the nature trails, and make funny hats to wear in public.

    Quit working – let all financial matters disintegrate into a pile of collection letters.

    Don’t make babies – that would be stupid.

    Don’t watch t.v. or go to movies or read news on the internet – stay clear of all media.

    When TSHTF, go quietly to the work-camps and be a good slave – knowing you had it good for as long as you did – and more than most. You must pay for those good times – the good times had at the expense of impoverished people all over the world and the extinction of 200 species a day.

  40. Pym Says:

    Tim Kreider, writer/cartoonist, is thinking along the same lines I am. Click “Artist’s Statement” under the picture for a full explication.

    http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly080423a.htm

  41. mo flow Says:

    Pauline –

    that handshake with death, the bittersweet embrace – there is the final fall. the bitterness never ends, but the sweetness is now truly alive. original innocence is now dead, once and for all. and yet the circle has closed, and a new kind of innocence is now active in the world, where we can embrace real existence in a fashion we had never before guessed was even possible. thank you for sharing your embrace of the fall, as it always helps to take some of the painful edge off of the bitterness.

    treenoise –

    we are well underway, and have been for a while now. there is no end to what we are, and what we can be.

  42. Grant Schreiber Says:

    Wester and so many others: “Acceptance” is not the same as compliance. “Acceptance” does not mean surrender. “Acceptance” is not hiding under the blankets until the storm passes over.

    Facing reality, especially a global reality that is much broader than the daily trials and tribulations on encounters is not for the faint of heart. You don’t stare into the face of extinction and decided that it sounds okay. Fight the military junta in Thailand while some of us try to fight the military junta in the US. Of course, the fighting we do here is most likely hypocritical and only online, but that has nothing to do with accepting the fate of the planet.

    The fascist forces are winning in Europe as well. No one gets out of this alive. If nothing else, that’s worth a laugh or two.

  43. ulvfugl Says:

    @ logspirit

    Clearly meat is YOUR religion, and you are a closed minded fanatic who refuses to see or to think clearly.

    Hahahaha, so because you can’t bully me into converting to your religion of veganism I must be a fanatic who can’t think clearly.
    That’s the best you can offer ? Effing clown.

    Trouble is, logspirit, I laid out my thinking here for anyone to read.

    I do think it is fairly clear.

    Nobody has to agree with my position. I’m not trying to ‘convert’ anyone to change in the way that you are attempting to do.

    All that I did was to explain the rationale behind my analysis.

    I gave repeated references to that 51% figure, all you do is scream and yell and obfuscate. AGAIN, it is from the Worldwatch Institute. Livestock and Climate Change

    You must take me for an idiot. Sorry, I am not. To claim that animals breathing out CO2 should be included in overall CO2 causing the climate catastrophe is junk.

    In any case, that has nothing whatsoever to do with my initial argument.

    As thestormcrow says above:
    “regarding the difficultly of spending time with people who don’t want to hear anything about what we are facing:
    … I have taken to just ending the conversation by smiling …”

    I don’t suffer fools gladly. You are your own worst enemy – and victim. You think you know it all, yet reveal your ignorance all too frequently. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. I was friendly towards you, but you are just too stuck in your aggressive religion. It has put a lock on your mind.

    More patronising rubbish. You did not answer any of the points I directed towards you and now you offer this lame and childish response, that ‘you’re not going to be my friend any more because I don’t give in to you pressure to change my mind’.

    Smile as much as you like, it doesn’t give your arguments any additional credibility.

    There never was and never will be, any chance at all that I will change my diet to suit your demands, logspirit.

    You’re a goddam zealot with an agenda. You are incapable of having a discussion of actual issues, you’re so urgently trying to push the propaganda as to why veganism is the only possible solution.

    It’s a power trip. You need to win converts.

    But from my perspective, it’s egocentric and anthropocentric and , you’re only concerned with yourself (health) and with humans (how they feel about animals and how more humans can survive).

    I’m not interested in beginning from that stance, as I have repeatedly explained.

    Your arguments are rubbish anyway, they don’t stand up. I’ve been surrounded by healthy people who have had meat as part of their diet all my life, the idea that everyone who eats meat gets ill is patently nonsense.

    You look at the photos of earlier generations of Americans. There was no obesity. What’s changed ? It’s not just the meat, is it, it’s fructose, and lack of physical exercise, and pollution, and all kinds of stuff.

    But I wouldn’t want to eat any American factory farmed meat.
    I’ve never argued in favour of that.

    One reason why I swear at you is for being so rude as not to bother to read what I actually write, and then to have the cheek to tell ME what I should eat and what I ought to do about my health.

    Fuck you, logspirit ! It’s none of your business, and I’ve had half a century of going to people of all kinds, and being told what’s good for me and what I ought and ought not to do, and I have hypersensitive radar toward bullshit on this topic.

    I absolutely am a world expert, because I have been to all the regular doctors and the specialist doctors and the alternative doctors and the far out weird and wacky healers, and nobody gets away with talking down to ME any more.

    Perhaps you ought to fix your OWN health first, before preaching to others, eh ?

    I actually LOVE these animals, birds and trees and plants. MORE than I love myself.

    The problem with your dumb simplistic crude sentimental ‘solution’ that says ‘we can grow crops and not have to kill animals’ is that it will not work and it means that all those domesticated varieties and all the wildlife get left out and become extinct, because stupid fucking permies and vegans are not capable of thinking in terms of systems, and only worry about themselves.

    You’re a perfect example. People becoming vegan will have NO impact on the overall capitalist economic machine which will just carry on devouring everything and killing us all. It’s not an effective strategy for attacking the global system.

    The people who don’t eat meat or use animal products will still use synthetic petrochemical products and vegetable and Industrial Civilisation still rolls on and brings us NTE.

    The only way NTE is avoided is if IC ends as soon as possible. That’s too horrible to contemplate and politically unacceptable and almost impossible to discuss.

    Your stupid ideas about veganism just makes things worse by prolonging the misery. What I would hope for – and it’s only a fantasy and wishful thinking – is that IC does crash soon, and then there is some slim chance for systems that work, long term.

    They MUST include animals. Because they cannot include fossil fuels. You can’t have transport and shoes and a zillion other essential items, not to mention food, without animals.

    Sure, close down the feedlots, be vegan if you want, I’m not telling anybody what to DO, I was explaining my analysis, and why I approve of what my neighbour does and why I think it is okay to eat meat.

    Btw, afaik, there are no feedlots in UK. Like so many ignorant Americans, you seem to think USA is ‘the world’. There is no Monsanto in Europe. Europe feeds 800 million people without that evil crap.

    I’m fighting for the non-humans, the rare breeds of domesticated animals and birds and fruits and trees, that took scores of generations of people’s care and work to create, and are immensely precious, and the wildlife, much of which co-evolved with humans and depended upon the systems they created.

    http://www.monsangelorum.net/?page_id=130

  44. kevin moore Says:

    “Acceptance” does not mean surrender’

    Agreed.

    Fascistic forces are winning everywhere, including in New Zealand, where a police state backed by the military has been in operation since the 1860s.

    One difference between here and some other places is that people are still free to criticise the government (for the moment). That does impede the morphing of the covert fascist state which is hell-bent on destruction into an overt fascists state which is hell-bent on destruction of everything that matter because the NZ parliament is riddled with saboteurs, as is the case practically everywhere.

  45. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    @ lark: That pretty much covers the whole story in five lines! And thanks! :)

    @ Henry: Roseanne Roseannadanna recounts meeting Walter Cronkite:

    ==

    mt says: No one, but me, thought much of Climate Change….By Sunday I was referred to as the “Nut.”

    From Wikipedia on “Acceptance”:
    “Acceptance in human psychology is a person’s assent to the reality of a situation, recognizing a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it, protest, or exit.”

    On Acceptance and STFU

    There’s no way of telling most folks
    Global warming isn’t a hoax;
    My acceptance grows,
    And I care less who knows:
    They’ll find out when everyone croaks.

  46. mt Says:

    BenjaminTheDonkey
    You are right, I need to STFU. The subject was brought up and being discussed based on misconceptions and lies, and I broke my silence like as dummy.

  47. Robin Datta Says:

    Hatefulness and anger – even if provoked by meat-eaters’ defence of their meat-eating habits, demonstrates a failure of non-violence in oneself in spite of abstention from meat. Non-violence can permit controlled manifestations of violence, as in the case of a surgeon wielding a scalpel or a rifle aimed a charging wild animal. But not so with violence that elbows out non-violence, even temporarily.

    Better to chow down on some tasty animals in awareness.

  48. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    @ mt: no insult implied, and there shouldn’t have been any imperative in the title. I learned the same way as you and everybody else who has posted the identical experience over and over again. Everybody thinks I’ve lost my mind too, I mean everybody, I never persuaded a single person, not one, over many years.

    What’s strange is I don’t have the pressing urge to tell people anymore. (Of course by now I’ve told everybody I know and suffered their rejection, so maybe the following isn’t really true.) My acceptance of doom is growing slowly, and oddly at the same time so is my disinterest in talking to non-doomers about it. I take that as a good sign! (Requires less self-control anyway. :D )

  49. logspirit Says:

    “You must take me for an idiot. Sorry, I am not. To claim that animals breathing out CO2 should be included in overall CO2 causing the climate catastrophe is junk.” I guess you are an xxxxx who didn’t read the Worldwatch report, but is more than happy to take center stage and tell the rest of us what it said… Uh, no sir, that isn’t what they said. The 51% of all anthropocentric climate change forcing coming from humans eating flesh has nothing to do with cows breathing out CO2. What the hell were you smoking when you dreamed that up? Man, you are really losing it. Just stay stuck in your sick fanatic stance. Your call. But in a case like this, willful ignorance isn’t bliss. It’s downright embarrassing.

    I quoted your bizarre statement about industrial agriculture and all you did was gloss over it – and attack. Meanwhile, YOU didn’t answer any of MY points… It seems that all you do when you are unable to respond cogently is make ad hominem attacks and shout and rant like a bully who has just pee’d in his pants, no intelligence there at all. Just a load of insecure ego and outdated dark age myths. And attack, attack, attack. As in: “Fuck you, logspirit !” As far as I’m concerned: “You’re a goddam zealot with an agenda.”

    You can’t defend your position scientifically, so you go aggressive. The evidence for the harm that is being done by people choosing to eat flesh (some of which I have provided if anyone is interested – and there is plenty more) leaves your notions in the dust.

    To think that I stood by you and defended you against your critics… my bad. I won’t be making that mistake again. You stand revealed as a grumpy old xxxxx and it isn’t pretty. You have revealed yourself as a closed minded person who insists he knows it all. You seem to think that you are better than everyone else, that there is nothing that anyone can teach you. Which hurts no one but you… well, perhaps a few poorly informed others who were probably of the same ilk to begin with.

  50. Nagarjuna Anand Says:

    Hello Pauline Schneider

    What is Acceptance?
    Acceptance does not mean renouncing one’s will, or the cessation of struggle. It does not mean stopping to act according to one’s own human nature, one’s own individual design. Acceptance simply means to understand and to know that the results of all one’s effort, all struggle, all one’s action is not in one’s hand. Acceptance is to know that I have no control over the result of my actions!

    This is the true meaning of the word acceptance. One keeps doing what one got to do, and in harmony with one’s nature. That is the meaning of following Dharma.

    But the Results?? The Intelligence inbuilt in the Totality of the field is the determining factor. So,we all can relax and simply do what we are meant to do. And we really relax once we understand and give up this childish expectation over the results of our actions.

  51. bkpr Says:

    Getting a bit tough to suss the signal from the noise here in my community. Yes this is OUR community simply because few hear our plea, fewer still understand what is at stake, and most don’t give a rip. So how many will I piss off when informed of the facts of our rural lives.

    Yesterday, I accompanied our farm butcher to harvest (KILL) our 2 pigs that make up the total extent of our pork consumption for the year. To my knowledge and observation, they got to live the life of a pig well looked after, yes my judgement, my conceit. They were gone before the sound of the round met my ears.

    In 2 days we will meet our farm butcher to cut and wrap what little won’t be made by us into cured meats without refrigeration, or a little frozen sausage. We put up our own ham, bacon, and prepare the tenderloin as my Nono (grandfather in Italian) taught me. All smoked and cured by us for the long winter ahead.

    Food security IMO, is knowing who raises the food we can’t raise ourselves. We know and have a relationship with most everyone who we buy our food from including the owner of our home owned grocery store. Unusual, perhaps, but maybe a reflection of where we put our priorities.

    I/we have stopped preaching to family, friends, neighbors, rather we listen and ask banal open ended questions with a agenda of wanting the awareness bulb to at least flicker. Doesn’t happen very often. So I am a dope to keep at it, if even on the low radar? Anyone keeping score, let me know.

    We keep bees, raise a lot of food, harvest eggs, cream, chickens, rabbits, deer, elk, mushrooms, berries, herbs and any thing else we have identified as edible as a dying part of Mom’s pantry. We take no more than we can eat or put up. We leave little or no trace of our visit. Sadly, this knowledge will die with us. Living with a foot in both worlds, is exhausting, confusing, and leaves us questioning our motives all the time. We think that won’t change until the moment for questions is gone.

    In short, what this looks like, is the understanding and ACCEPTANCE of we can do short term to mitigate the suffering amongst us all, and by that we mean ALL INHABITANTS of our biosphere. Little if any chance of that making any difference, but what would you suggest? Capitulate to the killers of all that is important to our survival? Our sense of joy, beauty, and the profound?

    Enough pontificating, our query is this, Are those so busy planning on dying, to busy to realize, that there is living to contend with?

    The good Doc says, ‘live a life with excellence, pursue what you love’
    Though we don’t feel it every day, partying like it’s 1999, seems the pursuit of boring people. They bore us.

    Joy to us is a simple act, as putting a home cooked, from scratch, meal, in front of people we care about, and listen to the message of love pour from their mouths.

    Beauty is listening to the few songbirds, the geese, the vanishing frogs at night. Most often now I wake before false dawn to hear the last of the birds greet the dawn. The vanishing insects that are a vital part of the food chain, are being killed by the science that feeds us. Brilliant!

    The conceit of living in judgement as homo-sapiens has much but not all, left us. We strive to re-discover what it might have been, or could be like living in harmony with, rather than in war with our Mother biosphere. Probably mental masturbation, we’ll get back to you, if time is still on the clock.

    Whether Fuke or the burden of this message (story) we fight to stay strong. Exhaustion is a close friend now, but yet leads to not so restful sleep. The seduction of total capitulation to ignorance seems like such an easier path to the final dirt nap, or as Grant suggests, a clotted source of soil nutrients.

    WHAT WE ACCEPT.
    We’re all in this together, and no body gets out alive.
    It is increasing clear, that there will be no one to record our demise as a species, nor progeny to tell our story. Oops. But maybe….

    What sticks in our craw a bit.
    !. Being told what to think, what to feel, what to eat, what stories are true, or perhaps more accurate. We owe a debt to U for illuminating mythos/logos. Tell us your personal experience or story but refrain from telling us ours. Those that have come this far, don’t need much more than knowing you are all HERE.

    bkpr

  52. ugotstahwonder Says:

    Back when I thought consensus might lead to action that might stop the train rolling, about six or seven years ago, I used to try and discuss what is happening and generally got dismissed with laughter or the ‘let’s just alienate this person’ as she deserves to be nod between listeners. Now, I see recognition and fear and also some of the indications for attempts at alienation. Not being a scientist fully versed on the why’s, I’ve all but stopped trying to have the conversation, because I don’t relish the role of informing people about something so awful. I respect what Guy is doing, but I just can’t bear the burden myself. It just feels too awful somehow. Not everyone can handle this information. Benjamin the donkey mentioned the ‘society of mind’ which reminded me of masks and complexes that develop in people’s psyches when the masks are out of synch. I feel like I might push someone over the edge and I don’t want that responsibility.

  53. James Says:

    “We are stardust, we’re invincible…………….” No, we’re a bunch a f’ing animals and the last man with functioning solar panels and an air conditioner wins. Cancer deaths aren’t pretty and this one’s not going to be without a lot of writhing and pain. Put that on your emotional roller coaster and take a ride. Sure took enough time to get to Stage IV, you know, one cell, two cells, four cells……7 billion humans struggling to obtain an office job in one of those comfort controlled cells. What a ride, we’ve developed tools and discovered enough energy to eat nearly everything and fart out enough CO2 to make the ecosystem’s epidermal hairs curl up.

    Ever notice how Dos Equis has a double XX as a logo? That’s enough to make man’s leg twitch. Mine’s a twitchen right now. Yes sir, when things get bad here in the good ole USA, I’m headed up to Northern Kentucky to get a place on the Ark, my true beliefs unknown to my fellow travelers of course. All you have to do in reality is believe in unreality, that’ll get the dopamine drip going and you can sail over the edge in a transcendent state. Or you could attend the Age of Limits meeting up in Pennsylvania at the Four Quarters Interfaith Sanctuary. Faith in what? I’m sure Zawacki will be doing a complete arboreal autopsy and the Archdruid will be handing out gold stars. Meadows knows what’s going on, but I think he’s holding back. I think I’ll show up with a few kegs and a bus full of jugaloes so we can have a real
    Apocalypto Party. If I can’t round up my jugaloe friends, I’ll just be handing out little green ribbons to put on your carbon gassing cars, “Find a Cure.” I’m gonna go get another double X just because it feels good.

  54. Henry Says:

    Some things that humans do, like music, are truly inspiring … too bad audiences can’t convert the same enthusiasm to go out on a rampage a la “Day of the Locust” and destroy every internal-combustion vehicle in their path, 40 years ago that would be, yeah, right. (music starts at 1:55)

    Good note to end the day on.

    Oh, and Benjamin, Gilda’s brilliance, too… I miss her more and more each time I see her, just an appreciation that I needed to grow into.

  55. ulvfugl Says:

    @ logspirit


    To think that I stood by you and defended you against your critics… my bad. I won’t be making that mistake again. You stand revealed as a grumpy old xxxxx and it isn’t pretty. You have revealed yourself as a closed minded person who insists he knows it all. You seem to think that you are better than everyone else, that there is nothing that anyone can teach you. Which hurts no one but you… well, perhaps a few poorly informed others who were probably of the same ilk to begin with.

    You make various claims to know something about martial arts and to have taught aikido. Well, you are no good at it, are you.

    Because the the first thing you need to learn then, is to respect your opponent.

    You show zero respect for me because you do not pay any attention to what I actually write here and say to you.

    Please gather your wits and pay some attention now.

    If necessary, I will return to my earlier comments and copy and paste what I have said to you, so you can understand.

    I have never asked you, or anyone else, to stand by me. I don’t need or expect your support or anyone else’s on this blog. You speak like a little child in kindergarten.

    I argue my own case and this is a topic which I have considered very deeply.

    You are unable to discuss any aspect of what I have stated. You are completely out of your depth.

    You can’t defend your position scientifically, so you go aggressive. The evidence for the harm that is being done by people choosing to eat flesh (some of which I have provided if anyone is interested – and there is plenty more) leaves your notions in the dust.

    To defend my position, I first state clearly what my position IS.

    I have done that.

    If you want to attack my position, then please attack the position that I have taken, and address your comments to ME, and do not speak to some other hypothetical person, with irrelevant strawman arguments, concerning issues that I have never mentioned, and which have no bearing upon anything that I have said.

    I am not the slightest bit interested in anything you have to say deigned to persuade me to change my personal diet, logspirit.

    My personal diet is none of your fucking business. Neither is my health.

    I have absolutely no interest in what you eat, or your sex life, or your skin colour or any details of your personal habits and history with regard to this issue, because it has nothing to do with such stuff, nor with what fucking gladiators ate in ancient Ephesus or what MMA fighters eat. I don’t need to fight anyone. I can beat anyone without wasting time and energy on fighting.

    My analysis begins from profound and absolute love and respect for the Mother Earth that created us, and for my fellow living creatures.

    That means I begin my argument from an ecocentric stance. Do you even understand what I mean ? It seems obvious you don’t have a clue what I am talking about.

    You are an idiot, making idiotic arguments. Look at what you say.

    The evidence for the harm that is being done by people choosing to eat flesh…

    We are going into a mass extinction event where billions of people and most life on Earth vanishes !

    What could be more HARMFUL than that ?

    Can this appalling prospect be avoided ? Most probably not. Why not ? Because people are idiots. They will NOT do the only things that might possibly help avoid the catastrophe, and they WILL do all the things that will make it worse.

    I don’t have power to change this predicament, only to analyse and explain how I see it.

    What’s at the root of the problem, the fundamental cause ? It’s biological overshoot of the carrying capacity, it’s capitalism which has to keep expanding and growing or else it collapses, it’s fossil fuels producing CO2 etc, and it’s Industrial Civilisation along with the whole mythology of Progress and domination of Nature and human exceptionalism.

    As far as I can tell, there is no solution, alternative energy won’t solve it, nobody wants to stop what they are doing, numbers increase exponentially, the changes will not be linear, we’ve already fucked up the climate and the oceans irretrievably. So we will get NTE.

    I have NEVER SAID that ‘people eating flesh’ is NOT harmful. I have said I am absolutely opposed to intensive agriculture and factory farming.

    But insisting that people become vegan does not address the issues, it’s not a strategic approach that makes any sense except to obese clueless Americans who get their burgers from Walmart.

    To say that people must never kill animals and must not eat meat is completely wrong. It’s grossly ignorant. We have been killing and eating animals ever since we first evolved.

    The Australian Aborigines lived for 60,000 years by hunting and gathering. We can’t go back to that lifestyle here in Europe.

    How could we have a lifestyle that was optimal for humans AND other life forms ? That’s what I mean by an ecocentric starting point.

    How do you design a system that does not use fossil fuels and does not pollute and wreck the environment and lets humans AND other life forms all survive ?

    Has there ever BEEN such a system, that we could learn from ?

    The answer is YES, there has been, and not only was it good for humans, it was actually BETTER for other species than the wild, natural system, because biodiversity increased.

  56. mt Says:

    @BTD
    No offense takin’

    Breath in-breath out
    Give within-give without
    Breath in-breath out
    Give love-get love
    Breath in-breath out
    Breath in-breath out

    (deep bass, jungle drums pound a simple rhythm in the distance, in all directions. The sounds slowly grow near)

    Boom-boom boom-boom boom-boom boom-boom…

    Days are born
    Nights are born
    Becoming always
    We do not end
    We become

    (maybe, I don’t know)

  57. ulvfugl Says:

    Guy Mcpherson mentioned here at 55:00

  58. Guy McPherson Says:

    I’ve just posted RE’s latest essay for this space. It’s here.

  59. Steve Says:

    Sorry I arrived late to Pauline’s pity party.All this poor pitiful me crap is profoundly creepy, especially coming from well aware members of a culture that can only be most aptly described as murderous as Ted Bundy. All the mass murder of the four-legged,finned ones and feathered ones By our (Exxon-Valdez, BP gulf oil spill, temperate rain forest clearcuts, etcetera, etcetera), we have so callously watched throughout our lifetimes with little or know empathy whatsoever and now poor pitiful us needs grief counseling before we go to our well deserved death by burning horror. Sounds exactly like Ted Bundy whining about his fate before he was justifiably EXECUTED. I think bat masterson, the Charlie Manson of us all, is slightly less pathetic in his lustful desire to see the earth snuff film we have all so wantonly created.

  60. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    Pauline

    I am quite confused.
    Reading you, and reading Carolyn Baker makes me question why you both see things like a big tragedy.
    Grief?
    Acceptance?
    Just because we cannot change the outcome?
    We always, since we are born, have had the possibility to change the outcome.
    A possibility. If we use it or not, it is our decision.

    What has changed in you in the last 20 years?
    Because probably in 1994 you were not thinking in acceptance and grief.

    What is so terrible today?
    Why dying is so scary?
    Is it because you believe that there is something like “my time”?
    We are going to die anyway, sooner or later.

    Again ¿could it be just an ego conflict situation?
    I never agreed with Carolyn Baker, mainly because of that reason.
    Life seen from a very personal point of view. It is always about me.
    My personal situation.
    All about myself.
    That is the tragedy?
    Then, what would be the wise attitude?

    Have you asked yourself the question of what is our reason?
    Why do we have to live?
    What could be our purpose as individuals?
    What is our reason to spent 60 or 80 or (maybe) much less years living?
    Probably not just to do “things”, consume, and all that crap the IC offers you to do.
    What has been your conclusion?

    I personally have no reasons for any grief, although I can clearly see were we are heading.
    Neither I feel the need to enjoy every minute of my life like water going through the fingers of my hand. I actually do enjoy life, but with simple things that are all around. As I have done for many years. In that aspect, knowing did not change my life.
    I can´t understand this big issue related to “going dark”, acceptance and grief.
    On due time, we will have more of “just another day”, probably more harder to live, maybe a day to die, but what is wrong with that?
    There shouldn´t be a conflict.
    We were born to die, and in the meantime, life is uncertainty. It is part of the game not knowing when and how we are going to die.

    I am not responsible for this situation (climate change and so), there is nothing I can do to change it. And again, I am going to die anyway, today, within ten years, who cares? I am in peace with myself already. After 50, it seems to me we all should be.
    Why seems to me that most people don´t? Can´t?
    It is not a moment to be happy, but not for grief either.
    I already did one of the things I can do for this becoming a better world..
    In the years to come, I will keep on doing what I can certainly. It is an obligation to a certain point, but if nobody else cares, what more can I do? I will keep on anyway.
    Is a necessity to see that our efforts change things?
    Do we have to see the results to be in peace?

    I am probably not the typical “married with children”, but in essence, do children make such a big difference between you and me?
    Maybe, having made of raising my two girls one of the main reasons for my life, giving them the basis for building a better world, makes a difference. A task that will continue, as long as possible, because it never ends.
    Interesting. Never thought about that in this way before. Maybe, it makes a big difference…
    Having lived in the South of the world, in a developing (or poor) country could explain the difference?
    You having practiced the American dream may make a difference?
    Or because I know (based in what history tells) that we have made such big mistakes in the past predicting the future based in solid scientific data, makes a difference?
    We both share the perception that the world is about to change drastically within a few decades, that there is a certain possibility for our extinction. But when it comes to face that reality, we are in rather opposite positions. Why?

    One last meditation.
    Cancer has never been an issue to me, as a matter of fact, if I am diagnosed, I will not follow any treatment. I do not see the reason. I had a chance to do things along my life, If I used wisely that chance or not, there´s nothing to do today. After 50, you can´t start all over again and do what you did not do before. Besides, we will always have something to do tomorrow, but after 50, those things become less and less relevant. All you can do are minor adjustments.
    What is the purpose of our life?

  61. G. H. George Says:

    The purpose of life is to consume – as much as you can. Even Frankl did his best to consume – a piece of bread metered over days to lengthen the “I am consuming” experience.

    When we die, we no longer consume. When we no longer consume, we die.

    People all over the world have but one primary purpose – to consume. Some are fettered and cannot consume much – but they still do their best to consume as much as they can. Some people have more choices as to what to consume – and we Americans get to consume pretty much whatever we want, whenever we want – fresh fruit in January, no problem!

    When TSHTF, we will consume each other until there is no one left to consume and the Last Consumer will perish.

    Fin

  62. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    G.H.George

    Because consume has taken where we are, obviously, making consume our purpose of life, shows to be the wrong option.
    If we pretend to be intelligent, and want to become wise, we have to look for other purposes.

  63. ulvfugl Says:

    @ logspirit

    Nothing to say to me ?

    So because you cannot beat me into being a vegan we’re not friends anymore, hahaha ? So much for your aikido.

    Let me give you some free advice.

    Don’t give people free advice. Particularly about their diet and health when they didn’t ask you for your advice.

    To illustrate the errors in your position.

    If I was to accept, hypothetically, that gladiators lived on barley, and it was the best food ever for human health and fitness, and we ought to eat barley not meat (or substitute some other veg for barley, it’s just shorthand.)

    So, you STILL have to grow millions of acres of barley, with tractors and combines and fertilizers and pesticides and ship it and process it and retail it, etc, etc.

    You have the exact same industrial capitalist machine as you have now, you still have replace the natural land surface with agriculture.

    You’ve still got 7-8 billion and rising mouths to feed, all that’s happened, instead of the animals breathing out CO2, there’s humans breathing out CO2.

    The animals have GONE. If you think that only humans matter, because they are superior, then, fine. But you still get NTE, because you do not have a sustainable, ecologically viable system.

    The whole line of thought, the analysis, is anthropocentric. It’s about, ‘How can we make more space for people and keep civilisation going for longer ?’ with a little bit of misplaced sentimentality about not liking to ‘hear calves crying’ and some dodgy bullshit health mumbo jumbo that makes money for certain vegan gurus.

    My analysis is entirely different.

    Or, it was, because as time goes by, it’s increasingly looking like it’s too late for anything now, we just get total meltdown.

    But,in any event, that does not mean I want to destroy the relatively good things that still exist, like what my neighbour does. I want to keep them going for as long as possible.

    So, my analysis is NOT anthropocentric. That’s because it is pointless to try and ‘save’ humans. What needs to be ‘saved’ is the Biosphere as a viable entity.

    There’s not much left of it. We are in the Anthropocene, we’ve already altered most of the planet’s surface, the ocean and atmosphere’s chemistry.

    But, maybe, there’s a slim chance, if human population crashes and industrial civilisation crashes, despite like nuclear war, Fukes, etc, that some humans and other life forms survive.

    IF that should be the case, then we need the animals.

    Quite apart from the morality, imo, plants are sentient as animals, and just because you don’t hear them scream when you bite them doesn’t mean they like to be killed, I think it is outrageous, that after we tool the wild progenitors of horses, cattle, sheep, chickens, goats, pigs, etc, and bred them into domesticated varieties, and they accompanied us through thousands of years, so that we were able to survive, we now say we have no further use, and just discard them.

    Nature is absolutely abundant, prolific and vital. Nevermind the tropics, even where I live, temperate, high up, on a barren rocky windswept mountain, it wants to be forest, and it takes a lot of work to stop it from being forest.

    Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s Nature, the Tao, that’s what’s meant to happen.

    The problem is, living in harmony with it. If I do not exert effort, to stop the brambles, trees and everything else that is growing, then soon, this place is submerged in vegetation, and the fucking trees are in the house. Actually, they are already, and there’s great swathes of ivy and clematis, grown through the roof and through the bedroom ceiling.

    Really, it’s a battle, a war, to keep a space free for one’s self, against all the invading flora and fauna.

    The problem is, that none of it is edible for humans. All that stuff that is so vigorous and thrives here is either poisonous or covered in ferocious spikes and needles, or both.

    Now, as an evolved primate with brain, I don’t want to spend all my calories fighting vegetation.

    So there’s two routes to choose, the ‘modern’ way, which is capitalism and technology, sign up to the machine nexus, with some oil powered noisy gadget that has the power of several horses, and needs spare parts from China or Japan, that minces up the vegetation very effectively.

    That’s not a sustainable model. It’s one that makes money for corporations and marketers and technologists and bankers, so it’s heavily promoted by civilisation.

    The other route to go, is the old way. This means using animals to stop the forest becoming forest.

    This way is absolutely brilliant, because Nature designed it, over millions of years.

    You know, GOATS are designed to enjoy eating horrible spiky stuff. Rabbits are designed to eat the grass very short. All these animals are designed to live with emerging forests and stop them turning people’s houses into forests. All you have to do is to be smart enough to manage the system. That does mean you do have to be very smart, of course.

    But then, it all does it by itself.

    But then comes the problem that they discovered way back in the Neolithic, when they began doing this stuff.

    If you want the milk, the sheep and goats and cows have to get pregnant, and even if you don’t, they still get pregnant, and the pigs have a dozen babies at a time, and the chickens multiply exponentially, and, if you do not intervene, instead of having trees inside your house, you’ve got a fucking zoo inside and outside your house, and something has to be done, because it’s Albert Bartlett’s arithmetic…

    One cockerel crowing at 3 am is a pleasure… 5, 20, 50, 150, all doing that, is not so much…

    The simple truth that we humans are part of the food chain, and all these creatures are edible, and they turn sunshine and rain and soil, and grass and nasty spiky poisonous bushes, and all that inedible stuff out there, into stuff that we can cook and eat.

    I’m sure it is true that much of the processed meat that commercial companies produce and which Americans eat in ridiculous amounts is probably not much healthier than toxic waste, because the whole system is a scam to make money. But I am not arguing in favour or support of THAT, am I. I support DGR, I want to rip the whole fucking thing down.

    What I am arguing in favour of, is the fundamental principle of how humans can live in harmony with other life forms.

    I enjoyed listening to this fellow

  64. Green Says:

    I really appreciated your articulation of the sentiments swirling in reference not just to Guy but the greater community. In regards to the “vegan” thing, I always point out to folks that factory farming indeed produces 40% of greenhouse gases, more than ALL transportation combined because there is so much propaganda to sell environmentally friendly or green cars. There is NO environmentally friendly car. They are manufactured with FF and mined resources. We also know that no one indoctrinated into the meat culture is going to stop unless they have some epiphany about the actual torture and cruelty that takes place to put animal flesh into their mouth. So for me, it’s just simply about compassion, and it’s personal….I know that being vegan won’t save the planet, or anything that I do for that matter but it makes me feel good about living this very short life, and I believe that is in essence what your essay says. So do and live how it works for each of us (drive, eat meat, consume), be happy.

  65. Steve Says:

    Ulvfugl Great post. Well said. The herbalist explained the beingness of plants very well. Where is the 2% that we all so desparetly need. I guess it is going to have to be my old broke ass. I guess I should just quit whining.

  66. Henry Says:

    ulvfugl — thanks for the Stephen Buhner video (I watched all 4 parts) and the reminder to think of plants in more ways than immediate utility or nuisance. Dealing with the flora and fauna of springtime, all those spiky things, is indeed what’s going on right now, and taking up many enjoyable hours of each day. So green and lush is my little jungle after the rains.

    How many people breathe really fresh air?
    How many people see wild animals each day?
    How many people can walk on wild grasses, or climb a hill each day?
    How many of us can get out of our car at night, and a panorama of stars stops us in our tracks, with a “Holy f*$%ing shit!” moment of awe?

    I thank Guy and this merry band for bending the curve of my concerns from my own aging and demise toward the fuller appreciation of the world in which I am living, NOW.

    Perhaps, given the prison of culture into which we were born, it could have happened only under these direst of circumstances, but “When the pupil is ready, …”

  67. mo flow Says:

    no prisons, no walls. nothing to escape from, nowhere to go.

    we are as free as we will ever be, right now.

    we are as happy as we will ever be, right now.

    what we are doing is perfection, right now.

    we are One, and there can be no other.

  68. the virgin terry Says:

    ‘I/we have stopped preaching to family, friends, neighbors, rather we listen and ask banal open ended questions with a agenda of wanting the awareness bulb to at least flicker. Doesn’t happen very often. So I am a dope to keep at it, if even on the low radar? Anyone keeping score, let me know.’ -bkpr (beakpurr?)

    my favorite relative is one of the hopelessly clueless. i find it’s ruining our relationship. i think she’s quite representative of ‘amerikkka’ in this way, which is why i’m no longer on good terms (perhaps i never was) with the corporate dogmatic and sick culture/society i’ve been immersed in my entire life.

    imo it’s a no-win situation, beakpurr. u can’t enlighten the hopelessly clueless, and u can’t find peace of mind with such knowledge/awareness (not to mention the great cost of this crushing flaw/limitation, which, of course, why u can’t be at peace with it). maybe awareness isn’t such a cool thing. maybe death would be better. just get it the fuck over with. but then, who knows? maybe ‘death’, like everything else in ‘life’, is but an illusion, and there’s no escape from this existential nightmare, this surreal life ‘twilight zone':

    ‘Living with a foot in both worlds, is exhausting, confusing, and leaves us questioning our motives all the time. We think that won’t change until the moment for questions is gone.’ -more bkpr

    i fear u’re absolutely right, beakper. fear or embrace that moment! (maybe fear, rather than ‘discretion’, is the better part of valor?!)

    that was one hell of a post approximately 48 hours ago, bkpr. thanx fer sharin! (that’s ‘thanks for sharing’ to those of u who are less familiar with slang (mis)spelling of vulgar amerikkkan english/inglis). but then, reading down further i see the next 2 posts by ugotstahwonder and james were both equally remarkable. reading this blog is definitely one of the better pastimes available, imo, as we all wait to be dead (or live, as the case may be). sweet pleasant stimulating companionship. nothing worse than feeling utterly alone. (actually, there’s any number of worse things, but chronic isolation due to alienation isn’t good for a social animal. so thanks, nbl. it’s good to know not everyone is clueless)


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