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The Money Valve

Wed, May 28, 2014

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Off the keyboard of RE

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Published on the Doomstead Diner on May 25, 2014

Bonus Frostbite Falls Daily Rant: Doubling Down

The Money Valve

money_spigot_1

Discuss this article at the Economics Table inside the Diner

Over the years here I have written numerous articles examining the nature of money and how it works. A few of the articles are Da Fed: Central Banking According to RE, Energy Money Equilibrium: The Value of Money in the Age of Oil, Energy-Money Equilibrium II: The Modern Era and the Jenga Paradox, Energy-Money Equilibrium III: The Future of Money in the End Game, Theory of Everything I, Theory of Everything II, Hyperinflation vs Deflation: Rebutting FOFOA and many others. Recently in observing the simultaneous collapse of the monetary system and the Energy extraction bizness, I had a bit of an epiphany in terms of being able to explain in a straightforward fashion why the Central Banking paradigm worked when there was vast and cheap energy available, and why it doesn’t work once the energy becomes more scarce and hard to extract.

Money serves as a Valve which controls the downhill flow of energy, which can do useful work as it flows downhill. This is basic Thermodynamics.

To envision how this looked at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, you have a large stock of energy that is pent up, and there is a high pressure pipe feeding the Money Supply valve. The Valve Controller who is the Central Bank issuing Debt to access the Energy is at this point in complete control of the velocity of money and the economy. They have two places to issue debt to, Industry which utilizes the Energy to produce Products and Waste, and Consumers who Consume the Products and produce Waste also.

MoneyValve3

If the CB at this point issues out too much credit to Industry, but not enough to Consumers, the Economy “Overheats”, and you can get a crash resultant from this, which basically was the scenario leading into the Great Depression.

The CB can also issue too much credit to Consumers and not enough to Industry, in which case you get an inflationary spiral.

Neither scenario of course is very good for the folks issuing the Credit, they want to maintain an ideal balance between Credit offered to Industry and Credit offered to Consumers so they can continue to extract the energy, Industry produces the Goods and Waste and Consumers consume the Goods and produce Waste. This is the underlying feature of Waste Based Economics.

As long as the Energy is coming out at high pressure, the Money Valve of the CB is in complete control of the Economy.

Now, what occurs when the Energy stock drops down to the point it is coming out at a lower pressure?

MoneyValve4

In this case, the Money Valve is much less functional. It still can distribute out Credit to both Industry and Consumers, but the amount it can issue in total is constrained by the Energy supply. In such a reductionary scenario, the CB tries to triage off credit to both sectors in order to maintain a steady, if smaller downhill flow.

The problem with this is that Industry functions at large scale and requires a ton of credit to keep operating. Industry also has first dibs on the credit, because of course the same people who issue out the credit also control the Industry. So in the next figure you see more of what is currently occurring, which is that Industry gets a larger portion of the Credit available, and the Consumer less of it.

MoneyValve5

The way this plays out in real life is that country after country of Consumers are triaged off the Credit Bandwagon, and lose access to the ability to buy the products of Industry. Read that places like Greece, Ukraine, Vietnam, Thailand and just about anywhere else there is currently ongoing Political Upheaval, Coup d’Etats, or Revolution.

Industry is still producing the goods though, even though more and more people are unable to afford them. This leads to the new effect of “Channel Stuffing”, which is where all the excess products being produced get sent to. This is essentially Waste, even though it is all brand spanking new stuff.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/05/cars%203.jpeg

Money-Spigot-3I did not bother to redraw the diagram when the Energy Stock falls below the point at which it can feed the Money Valve. This should be obvious, everything comes to a grinding halt. However, because total consumption gets smaller all the time, you have an asymptotic curve which develops, and it takes quite a while to actually fall completely below the point where no Credit can be issued at all. Before that happens though, the large scale industries dependent on gobs of credit to operate will begin to fail.

In truth, as long as you can grow food and have daily energy input from the Sun, you can continue to run some sort of monetary system that operates this way, but it is way smaller than the one we have been operating with since Fossil Fuel energy was accessed. You always need surplus energy relative to your population size to do this though, even at low levels. If there is not a downhill flow of energy to work with, there is no way to make a monetary system like this work.

This is the reason that although they were not using Fossil Fuels, the Roman Empire’s monetary system eventually crashed. As the Empire expanded, it grew in population size, but produced ever less food per capita throughout the Empire, with ever more Waste involved in running an expanding Military and building ever more roads that needed to be maintained in order to move the food around and move the Military around. For the type of agrarian economy they were running, when the energy costs of maintaining it exceeded the ability of the land to produce the food necessary for everyone involved, the monetary system crashed. Of course this took a good deal longer in those years, because it was run at a lower level of throughput.

http://www.coinweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/kunker_autumn.jpgLike today, the Romans attempted to slow the decline through a gradual debasement of their money, substituting base metals for gold and silver in their coinage. However, making more Money available to the population did not in any way increase their ability to produce food or move it around, or pay for the Military required to maintain order through such a large system. Money is not a substitute for resource availability, whether done through the issuance of more Credit or through the issuance of more Coins. Maintaining the integrity of their currency with Silver and Gold coinage would not have saved the Romans either, they simply would have had less money in the system to work with and fewer resources at the same time. The military would have collapsed sooner with inability to pay the Legions with less coinage available.

I left out many things on these diagrams in order to simplify them. Not taken into account here is the fact that increasing levels of Waste in an economy generate their own costs. An easy example of that would be something like Fukushima, which now is costing Billions in order to try to clean up the mess, and probably can’t ever really be cleaned up even for Trillions.. Even without a disaster like that, you have decommissioning costs on older reactors.

Also not shown explicitly is the waste that comes in the form of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. This has deleterious effects on the overall climate, resulting in more droughts, more destructive cyclonic storms, more powerful Tornadoes and so forth. All of these are constantly doing damage to the overall infrastructure, power lines come down, homes are destroyed and so forth. This is more waste in the system as you need to keep rebuilding the same things over and over again, constantly using up an ever decreasing and ever more expensive supply of stored energy.

Also not shown is how the interest charges applied to all the created money by the CBs escalate all the time due to the compounding of Interest, or how corruption endemic to the system ends up with huge portions of resource wealth being funnelled of into private hands rather than being equitably distributed, or how Goobermint waste and inefficiency also burn up gobs of energy and money. You can look at all those effects as Friction on the system, waste heat that is exhausted all throughout the processes.

http://atlanticbassmasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fat_lady_sings.jpgThe outcome is pretty clear here, once the available per capita energy falls below a critical mass, this monetary system will fail. It remains hard to determine precisely what that critical mass is, particularly within the countries like the FsoA and Wall Street, the UK and the City of London and Germany and the Bundesbank are concerned. The likelihood is these places continue to provide credit to their own populations while triaging ever more peripheral countries off the Credit Bandwagon. This of course is analogous to the Roman Empire collapsing first at the Periphery, and working its way inward over a couple of centuries to Rome itself. In this case though, the collapse is unlikely to take centuries to play out, decades at best is more likely, and perhaps just a few years or even months. What there is of a monetary system now that functions globally is held together by Duct Tape and Bailing Wire,, or in this case Accounting Fraud and outright Theft, as in the case of John Corzine and MF Global.

Money and Energy are integrally related. Money serves as a means to distribute Surplus Energy, it does not Create Energy, nor can it equitably distribute an overall deficit of Energy per Capita. When this monetary system fails, which it is already well on its way toward doing, there will be no substitute, not Gold, not SDRs, not for a long time until there is a relative surplus again. Interim management will require overall shrinkage, more locally based economies, conservation and a lower standard of living for all.

The Free Lunch we got from the Age of Oil is OVAH. The Fat Lady has sung on that one.

RE
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McPherson’s 26 May 2014 interview with Lotus Guide is embedded below

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Mature, intelligent critics attack ideas, not people. Immature people attack people instead of ideas.
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If you have registered, or you intend to register, please send an email message to guy.r.mcpherson@gmail.com. Include the online moniker you’d like to use in this space. I’ll approve your registration as quickly as possible. Thanks for your patience.
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4 June 2014, Wyoming, debate with H. Leighton Steward, who often represents the fossil-fuel industry. Read about Steward here.

Wyoming debate flyer
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Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power and by more than three dozen readers at Amazon.

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80 Responses to “The Money Valve”

  1. Gary S Says:

    CO2 from your car’s exhaust and industrial sulfates isn’t quite the same as military tankers spraying aluminum aerosols Guy. At least not from my vantage point here in NJ where they are spraying constantly.

    There must be a good reason you deflect questions about geoengineering.

    And the thing is, when scientists like Beckwith say that events like the Calgary floods and the California drought were driven by climate change (which he did in a recent interview with you) they lose credibility. These events were clearly geoengineered.

    How am I to take them seriously if they can’t see the obvious or, if they can see it, trust them when they can’t be honest about what is happening? Very frustrating.

    Also, are you saying that there is zero chance of the earth’s temperature quickly cooling down after a loss-of-albedo temperature spike following a total collapse? Zero chance?? I can’t just take one scientist’s Clive Hamilton’s word on that. It’s not enough.

    Thank you for your work Guy. You have really made a difference in my life.

  2. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    RE says: The Fat Lady has sung….

    Götterdämmerung—Prologue

    First Norn

    We’ve been weaving the rope of Fate
    Since humankind’s earliest date,
    From hunter and gather
    To thinking they’d rather
    Be planting the stuff that they ate.

    Second Norn

    With resources heedlessly chucked,
    Most people’s lives really sucked:
    Backbreaking and numbing
    (You knew this was coming),
    Until they were royally fucked.

    Third Norn

    Their peaks have been passed, no retakes;
    They can’t reverse their mistakes—
    Wait—something’s not right—
    Too slack or too tight?
    The rope becomes tangled! It breaks!

    Second Norn

    It breaks!

    First Norn

    It breaks!

  3. Robin Datta Says:

    In the natural flow one organism’s waste is a product useable by another organism; the latter organism’s waste is a product usable by the former organism, forming a closed cycle. The energy to keep things (matter) moving through the cycle comes from the sun, or in exceptional instances from geothermal vents, etc.

    The human method is indeed to convert resource to product by skilfully directing energy streams; byproducts may include waste. The products, when used, also become waste. Most waste is not recycled, in spite of much effort at recycling.

    The primary economy is the resources, their natural maintenance and renewal: flora & fauna, the environment including water resources, minerals, arable land, sunshine etc.

    The secondary economy is the extraction and distribution of resources, conversion of resource to product by expending both resource and energy, and the distribution of the product.

    Disks of metal, precious or otherwise, green pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents, magnetised particles on hard drives, are various symbols that constitute the tertiary economy and represent values in the primary and secondary economies. Their exchangeability for resource and product is enforced by the guns of the state. These symbols are used to manipulate the primary and secondary economies.

    Depletion and degradation of the primary economy, both non-energy resources and particularly energy resources can be masked for a while by increasing the supply of symbols. This can be done by making symbols of symbols, then symbols of symbols of symbols, ad infinitum à la “derivatives”. But the value of the symbols is in their purported exchangeability for resource and product. The depletion of resource and product will call for the conversion of the symbols. With too many symbols chasing too few resources and products, they will be less effective as a tool for manipulation of the primary and secondary economies.

  4. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Robin Datta

    Don’t forget the nano particles… adding value !

    According to the Project on Emerging Nanotechnologies (PEN)—a joint venture of Virginia Tech and the Wilson Center—there are more than 1,600 nanotechnology-based consumer products on the market today. If SmartSilver Anti-Odor Nanotechnology Underwear sounds like a rather intimate application for this novel technology, consider that the PEN database lists 96 food items currently on US grocery shelves that contain unlabeled nano ingredients. Examples include Dannon Greek Plain Yogurt, Silk Original Soy Milk, Rice Dream Rice Drink, Hershey’s Bliss Dark Chocolate, and Kraft’s iconic American Cheese Singles, all of which now contain nano-size titanium dioxide. As recently as 2008, only eight US food products were known to contain nanoparticles, according to a recent analysis from Friends of the Earth—a more than tenfold increase in just six years.

    http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/05/nanotech-food-safety-fda-nano-material

  5. Grant Schreiber Says:

    I am unable to keep from cringing when people start talking about god and/or aliens swooping down to save the “chosen” or whatever. Glad to see Guy didn’t wince or break into a grin. Of course, he didn’t bother with the chem-trails nonsense either.

    Listen, things are so fouled up there doesn’t need to be a government conspiracy behind it. Of course, it’s that huge money conspiracy that helped foul things, so there’s that.

    As things go terminal, there seems to be a lot more hopium offered as solutions. Crap. Maybe it is all a conspiracy after all.

    They LIVE!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w

  6. Steve Says:

    On Video: OH how completely, perfectly sweet, gringos headed south. I hope all the little brown people slaughter them upon arrival. There is justice in the universe!!!

  7. Guy McPherson Says:

    Justice, Steve? What universe are you thinking about?

  8. artleads Says:

    Scroll down to “‘Feelin’ no pain” for some fosse magic:

    http://chickflicksmusicals.blogspot.com/search/label/bob%20fosse

  9. Robin Datta Says:

    WorldWatch Institute, November/December 2009, Livestock and Climate Change:

    “Livestock are already well-known to contribute to GHG emissions. Livestock’s Long Shadow, the widely-cited 2006 report by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organi- zation (FAO), estimates that 7,516 million metric tons per year of CO2 equivalents (CO2e), or 18 percent of annual worldwide GHG emissions, are attributable to cattle, buffalo, sheep, goats, camels, horses, pigs, and poultry. That amount would easily qualify livestock for a hard look indeed in the search for ways to address climate change. But our analysis shows that livestock and their byproducts actually account for at least 32,564 million tons of CO2e per year, or 51 percent of annual worldwide GHG emissions.”

    Two caveats. Both are a bit dated. They do not distinguish between ecologically sound practices and industrial methods.

  10. Henry Says:

    Tierra del Fuego, baby!

    Conquistador:

    “… and though you came with sword held high,

    you did not conquer, only die.

    Though I hope for something to find,

    I can see no place to unwind.”

    Story of that bender that “Western” man went on, after the potatoes brought back from Peru kept Europe out of the Spring starvation cycle… “This spud’s for you.” We’re dying of irony out here.

    ==========

    Benjamin –

    We ask when our case got so dire

    That our shelf life is set to expire.

    Could we take it all back,

    From clearcut down to frack,

    We’d throttle that first guy who lit fire.

    =========

    Steve — Where to begin, baby?!!

    “little brown people”? — Congrats on nailing so well the wisdom of the Americentric view of the world! (“We’re all just cute, cuddly Aryans here!”) Yes, there are points of rough justice along the way to the eventual end.

    I was talking with two of mis favoritas this morning, and they have a fiesta planned for me when I get back, at which I’m apparently to be the main course. Here there be cannibals! Of course, I have to insist on no texting while…

    But, to the brown ones; you must mean Taina from Manaus. (No, not that one, you Googling losers.) I asked to see her poison-tipped spear, but she was more interested in mine. And ever since, when people allude to life up the Amazon, I picture millions of swinging hamacas powered by the Energizer Bunnies who live there.

    [The above accounts are purely fictitious, created for entertainment purposes only, and do not refer to actual persons living or deceased, and may depict activities which are largely carbon-neutral, except for short intervals of heavy breathing.]

    Oh wait, Steve! Sorry, I missed the /sarc clues! You’re from the Expat “Keep the Bums Out” team, doing your weekly rotation on the blogs. Indeed, ’tis a tightrope we must walk. Sorry, hope I didn’t mess things up for ya! Never mind. Carry on.

  11. Robin Datta Says:

    We’re all just cute, cuddly Aryans here!

    Cute cuddly Neanderthal-oids. Aryans are Homo sapiens. True Homo sapiens have black hair, including Aryan Homo sapiens – the Greeks, the Turks, the Afghans, the Iranians, etc.

  12. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    @ Henry: Just look at your improvement after only one limerick!

    Henry says: Procol Harum

    In Held ‘Twas In I: In the Autumn of My Madness

    Old beliefs are no longer enough
    To deal with this new doomer stuff:
    Mass madness, they say,
    Is not far away,
    And the going is getting rough.

  13. Steve Says:

    It is irrefutable that throughout the last 500 yrs of human history that million and millions of brown people (native americans, vietmanese,central and south americans, phillipinos, and all other indigenous cultures) have suffered displacement,genocide and racism at the hands of expanding western white male empire. You and I, Guy. And now we are poised to destroy all life on planet earth including the poor brown people who never where allowed to participate in our drunken party of more creepy plastic crap from walmart. And now we want to go south to their countries and displace them again to avoid our own self made catastrophe. For the last 50 years all these south and central americans have been desperately trying to come here at great personal sacrifice to do the jobs we do not want to do for unbearably low wages and have been arrested and sent back. The irony is so rich. We at best should be sent back and at worst suffer violence for trying one last time to usurp their lands and resources. That would be justice.

  14. Steve Says:

    DIDN’T SEE MY LAST POST GUY. WHITE MALE EMPIRE HAS ALWAYS DISPLACED AND MURDERED THE NON WHITE POPULATIONS OF ALL THE AMERICAS. IT IS ONLY JUST IF THEY REFUSED TO LET US MOVE SOUTH AND DISPLACE THEM AGAIN. VERY SIMPLE CONCEPT OF JUSTICE DON’T YOU THINK.

  15. Steve Says:

    Guy, I see the pain in your face on all your videos. I hold you in the highest esteem. In fact, I put you in that rare category of humanity reserved only for the likes of Derrick Jensen and Lierre Kieth and all the hopeful, beautiful youth that believe in that better world Derrick and Lierre offer.

  16. Steve Says:

    By the way “little brown people” is a phrase Derrick so often uses in a most affectionate way.

  17. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    RE

    Nice essay.
    But, as serious doomers, we all know that economy is going down, and that the collapse is unfolding, and near.
    And no matter how many times we revise the fall of the Romans, there is no way to know when, and how, the collapse of the IC will take place. Neither how fast.
    We have to add the Fukushima, and possibly other nukes, impact.
    And climate change.
    Any analysis, has to include more factors.
    Otherwise it shows only a few pixels of the picture.

    I guess, we should try to get into other topics.
    Topics that may be more under our control.
    Since you are good typing, why don´t you try to imagine one common (and average) day in your SUN community?. Describing the relations inside, and how the system would work. What would be the social structure inside. The relation between men and women, and children. How population would be controlled,.
    My major concern about your idea is related with the human relations inside your community. Why somebody would want to do something day after day. For decades.
    Make a serious effort. It will be a good exercise.
    You spent a lot of time talking and writing (and thinking) about current situations, that do not need major attention. Because all are only parts of the picture. And we need the whole picture. Parts are useless.
    Use that energy and time you have, to devise your proposal in detail. It will be a very useful effort.
    I guess you have the best community available to criticize your idea, that so far, is just a gross concept, with nothing seriously developed. I have already told you this before. And I keep the same opinion.
    The reality will be the reality, and no matter how many details you avoid to take in consideration, when the time comes, they will be there, and show up. And you will have to face them, deal with them, and try to solve them. With some urgency. And solutions under stress never are the best. Only patches. Better is to discover this issues before, and prepare with some time the solutions. Even better, to avoid them at all.
    As a ship designer with more than 20 years of experience, I know that at the beginning, always, most ideas seem to be “the perfect solution”, but shortly after going into some details, you discover usually a lot of flaws. That have to be solved, before construction begins.
    Many times a minor issue, takes down the whole idea. And you have to change everything.

    By my experience, I know that everything seems very OK when there is only a basic and general concept. But when you seriously try to put the concept to work, I mean when you go to detail concept, many flaws show up.
    Otherwise, what today, from the distance, seems to be a good idea, just like many ideas, it will probably fail when put to work. Specially when we are talking about something you have never done before.

    Any concept of a system has to undergo two stages before going into production, that is a stage even before putting it into operation.
    This stages are:
    -Basic design: The general concept, but, sharply defined. Even, in this stage you have to pay attention to some details, that require attention, because the solution of those details, may affect the main concept.
    -Detail design.: You go paying attention to all the details, depending on your experience and knowledge. Less experience will require more details and vice-versa. In your case, a lot of attention has to be given to details.
    Keep in mind that up to this moment, nothing has been done, in material terms. Everything is still up to the level of concepts. And mainly have gone through an intellectual process.
    Once the detail design is fairly clear, you can think that the production stage may begin.
    This whole process will assure you that when the time to put to work the system comes, it will perform as expected. No flaws, no surprises and only a few unexpected situations. Always there has to be room for the unexpected. But hopefully, it will be fairly under control, or at least you will have an idea of some weak points that have to be solved along the way, because there is no other way. The trick is to keep the unexpected to a minimum.

  18. Henry Says:

    Benjamin — I’m having (good) flashbacks — we saw the ending to this movie long, long ago, and it is indeed playing out as we saw. Kali Yuga, and all that. Let’s hope the good parts of that vision apply as well:

    The song was a complete trip in itself.

    “Still write it down, it might be read
    nothing’s better left unsaid
    only sometimes, still no doubt
    it’s hard to see, it all works out…

    [In the Autumn of My Madness]
    “In the autumn of my madness when my hair is turning grey
    for the milk has finally curdled and I’ve nothing left to say
    When all my thoughts are spoken (save my last departing birds — [I thought it said "verse"])
    bring all my friends unto me and I’ll strangle them with words
    In the autumn of my madness which in coming won’t be long
    for the nights are now much darker and the daylight’s not so strong
    and the things which I believed in are no longer quite enough
    for the knowing is much harder and the going’s getting rough

    [Look to Your Soul]
    “I know if I’d been wiser this would never have occurred
    but I wallowed in my blindness so it’s plain that I deserve
    for the sin of self-indulgence when the truth was writ quite clear
    I must spend my life amongst the dead who spend their lives in fear
    of a death that they’re not sure of, of a life they can’t control
    It’s all so simple really if you just look to your soul
    Some say that I’m a wise man, some think that I’m a fool
    It doesn’t matter either way: I’ll be a wise man’s fool
    For the lesson lies in learning and by teaching I’ll be taught
    for there’s nothing hidden anywhere, it’s all there to be sought
    And so if you know anything look closely at the time
    at others who remain untrue and don’t commit that crime.”

    That may be the best we can hope for — don’t get implicated in the crimes being committed, and hope there is an Intergalactic Court of Justice somewhere that will hear your appeal, as you depart Earth’s jurisdiction.

    P.H. was always the “Dark Night of the Soul” challenging music (A Salty Dog), with Moody Blues to bring me peacefully back down in the early (sunrise on the hill) A.M. “Whew! I’m O.K.! And after where I’ve just been!” Just the mix that I could handle, without going over the edge like some friends did. Still here, still mixing it all together.

    ==========

    Steve — I knew you shared my sympathies, sorry for jumping on ya. Guy, Derrick and Lierre are precious miracles we are blessed to have with us in this time. The strong, gentle souls we’ve always admired throughout life. And the younger people presenting at their gatherings — breaks my heart to see how little hope we have left them.

    To “the South,” the “they” is firmly in White control, with a couple of exceptions just starting up, Ecuador and Bolivia. We’ll see. Venezuela is a mystery to me, and people from different classes give different stories. Otherwise, the original colonizing whites have maintained control, and the USA is certain to come down on their side in any contest for power.

    A fellow “White” European is welcome, as long as you bring money and do not threaten the social order. (Think of the many murdered Liberation Theology priests.) Many levels deep it goes, since times of Conquistadores, and about the only thing you can thank NTE for is that it obviates all the heartbreaking social stasis and injusticia that will never be rectified in the remainder of our lifetimes, or anyone else’s…

  19. Virgin Killer Says:

    Steve Says: May 28th, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    On Video: OH how completely, perfectly sweet, gringos headed south. I hope all the little brown people
    S L A U G H T E R
    them upon arrival. There is justice in the universe!!!

    Guy McPherson Says:
    May 28th, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    Justice, Steve? What universe are you thinking about?

    THE MCPHERSON DEATH CULT?

  20. Find a way out Says:

    Unfortunately, for freedom lovin folk, this last post (Virgin Killer) shows why – sadly – moderation on web blogs is a “good idea”.

    When concerned folk find themselves sitting next to psychos in a confined place, prison for example, the pure force of the Blind Stupidty of a Darwinian search-selection strategy in our universe, becomes evident.

    Virgin killers are just that, people who look focus on the sick side of it all…. Hence reference to this poor kid who is clearly a VICTIM of the civilization which many hope either CHANGES, or disappears.

    Can anyone predict with certainty if VK will be here in a decade to terrorize our “virgins”.

    Suggestion to NSA like folk listening in on all this.

    Find & Destroy the virgin killing psychopathic terrorists amongst civilized folk?

    No Cannot Do blue ? No funding, no political mandate ?
    I guess civilization may be about folk tryin to get on the side of the winning horse.

    In this post, Guy cannot win without losing.
    That makes psycho gamers frustrated.

  21. david higham Says:

    I was surprised to see the worldwatch institute report quoted by Robin Datta above, because it is not scientifically accurate that livestock are
    a significant contributor to the atmospheric CO2 which is driving the climate disruption problem.Also from the CO2 angle it is irrelevant whether the animals are eating in a feedlot or in a free range setting.I think most people here understand the carbon cycle,but as it is evident that some do not,let me try to explain the fault in the worldwatch report analysis.
    The easiest way to understand may be to think about what would happen to the grass,grain, legumes,forage etc that is being consumed by the livestock if the livestock did not exist.The carbon that is contained in that biomass will still return to the atmosphere as CO2 when burnt or oxidised in the bodies of most other animals including humans,or as CO2 and methane (CH4) if consumed by ruminants (animals with a digestive system similar to cattle )or termites.It will also return to the atmosphere as CO2 or CH4 if left to rot ,depending on whether the decomposition is aerobic (in presence of oxygen) or anaerobic (when oxygen is not present.)
    The main contributor to climate disruption is when the fossil carbon,which is in coal,petroleum,and hydrocarbon gases is burnt,which returns that carbon to the current carbon cycle.
    Deforestation is a contributor,but is important to remember that if that
    forest is replanted,it eventually removes its original carbon from the
    atmosphere,as the trees photosynthesise and form wood,but they are not solving the main problem of the fossil carbon entering the atmosphere.
    I will leave it at that. Maybe someone else who understands can try to explain from another angle if I have not explained well enough.

  22. Robert Callaghan Says:

    There are no coincidences. During the crash of 08, all eyes turned to China. China’s banks grew from $10 trillion to $25 trillion in just 5 years. That’s a $15 trillion bubble. It took 100 years for American banks to grow to a size of $15 trillion. It took 100 years for the American economy to grow to a size of $15 trillion. This is the biggest bubble in human history. This bubble will pop around the 2016 elections, which of course will render any climate agreement in Paris in 2015 moot, ineffectual and dead in the water. After this time coal burning will take off as a matter of “necessity”. I am buying two extra packs of plain wheat noodles and cans of salmon (which can last up to 5 years). Do not try to store a balanced diet because it takes up too much room and won’t store as long as you may need it.

  23. Find a way out Says:

    As an appendix to Guy’s work, I’ll just say that I understand.
    Here’s why in words & song.

    As a practicing dzogchen buddhist, first thing you learn in buddhism is that it’s impermanent, that means YOU DIE DUDE – nature of Reality.

    – just a question of when – we’re all in the same predicament.

    Buddha is a VERB conjugation meaning “awakened”. Awake to what ?
    That is the central Question behind all the Caring going on by all participating here -even VK ;)

    Well if you’re a multiversal philosopher-scientist-computer scientist like guy you realize that EVENTS are all situated in a computtionally explainable Matrix. At least they are relatively comprehensible and measureable from those perspectives.

    But we need MORE than sciences, rants & raves. We need CONSENSUS, somehow, someway…

    Some buddhist scholls (China during dark ages ) devised an ontological (precursor) notion to the many worlds concept. If there exists more than one world, you get combinatorially (“infinite”) chances : let’s say ONE per universe.

    A “world” is a “rule-driven”, guided “existence”, encapsulated in a way, called “dharmadhatu”.
    So a characteristic of a World for a Being is that you AWAKE or don’t, to caring.

    Hua Yuen buddhists explained karmic behaviors as enclosed in a casual “space” of action and understanding which is a dhatu governed by lawlike circumstances, Dharma (lawlike causalities interlocking in to WEBS : primal “ecologies”.)

    I describe this to give y’all another angle & point of view on your debatingvhere..

    Whether Apocalypse is tomorrow, today, what MATTERS (pun intended) is what you DO.
    Ethics is MANDATORY for humans’ being in any meaningful way.

    The causal web of karma is built from reactions based on the mind’s decoding of both understanding and energies HAPPENING in that moment.

    Let’s apply my ideas to kids like the Psycho of the moment in Santa Barbara, or the kind who massacred the youngsters last year.

    First of all, if it’s hard to get guns, it’s hard to mass slaughter kids, adults.

    But if these kids had been able to talk, interact, befriend people that they like and respect, they would have turned away from their Evil Acts.

    So, it is the societal modes of interaction, via medicines, categorization of behavoirs which make a difference (cf. gregory Bateson)

    Note: (uture NSA-like Big Brother analyses will be driven by totally qutomated behavior analyses via predictive modelling techniques. All thevtime, everywhere surveilled, by many many playing a vast resource hoarding and consumer guided social behavior nexus.

    Orwell & Huxley would laugh :))
    -

    These nasty managers (“thought police” from some Matrix film sequel) will create lists and store those for current or future uses.
    NSA, KGB, secret Chinese or other countries, private mafias hacher armies,…

    So knowing that (atbleast reseanable assumption) who WANTS a sick “civilization” to survive ?
    Guy wins -or SHOULD, because Civil disobediance like Snowden’s is useless in the near term.

    Check mate.

    Guy’s vision just explain’s Gaa’s remedial actions against watch Gregory Bateson saw as a massive schizophrenia creating culture implemented by “Civizations”.

    Guattari & Deleuze called this Schizo capitalism.

    It’s virzl until the host succumbs or the virus go dormant.

    =======
    Song for Guy & friends ;)

    THE HOUSE AT POONEIL CORNERS, Jefferson Airplane
    album The Woodstock Experience

  24. Wester Says:

    Hello, sorry if this is off topic, but in the big picture, maybe it’s not. It is where I live. Thailand update: The leading organizer of poor people in the ghettos is still being. locked up in a military prison. Several days now. Unknown location. The top union organizer is in jail, and his wife and son were taken away by soldiers, in an unknown location. The country’s top journalist is in a military jail, unknown location, 4 days inside, now being threatened with multi-year prison sentence. 71 leading activists in what amounts to the liberal political party (actually conservative and not even really progressive) are in unknown locations. The elected Prime Minister Yingluck and all her top political party are under house arrest. Former Education minister in undisclosed location. All top academics and professors are in lockdown. The country’s top lawyers are in lockdown. Student activist from KhonKaen went into lockdown today. Facebook was offline yesterday for censorship. Daily mail in England is blocked. Several proxy sites which allow bypass of the censorship are also blocked. All human rights organizations have made statements opposing. Several of my FB friends dropped me because they are scared. Threats are being issued that people could randomly be prosecuted for Facebook statements. It really is a terror state at this point like East Germany, probably worse.

    What can you do to help me? Poll your local Thai restaurant. Ask if they support the coup. If they do, boycott them into bankruptcy, or better yet, burn the …(ok nevermind). What about your governments? Why not go and ask why they are doing any kind of business with an operation like this. If they don’t respond, occupy their offices permanently, or better yet, burn the …(ok nevermind). I know y’all are damn busy these days.

  25. Jim Says:

    Chemtrails? Chemtrails? And the host in the video says their audience are “above average intelligence”??? And then goes on to talk about “being sprayed by heavy metals”? Can we stick to the scientific facts please?

    Trails of water-vapour in the sky left by airliners and other aircraft are not “being sprayed with heavy metals.” What a load of utter, complete bullshit.

    Keep to facts please, otherwise we’re as nutty as climate change deniers.

  26. Tom Says:

    http://phys.org/news/2014-05-discovery-trillions-tiny-bits-material.html

    Discovery suggests there may be trillions of tiny bits of material pollutants trapped in Arctic ice

    Abstract

    When sea ice forms it scavenges and concentrates particulates from the water column, which then become trapped until the ice melts. In recent years, melting has led to record lows in Arctic sea ice extent, the most recent in September 2012. Global climate models, such as that of Gregory et al. [2002], suggest that the decline in Arctic sea ice volume (3.4% per decade), will actually exceed the decline in sea ice extent, something that Laxon et al. [2013] have shown supported by satellite data. The extent to which melting ice could release anthropogenic particulates back to the open ocean has not yet been examined. Here we show that Arctic sea ice from remote locations contains concentrations of microplastics at least two orders of magnitude greater than those that have been previously reported in highly contaminated surface waters, such as those of the Pacific Gyre. Our findings indicate that microplastics have accumulated far from population centers and that polar sea ice represents a major historic global sink of man-made particulates. The potential for substantial quantities of legacy microplastic contamination to be released to the ocean as the ice melts therefore needs to be evaluated, as do the physical and toxicological effects of plastics on marine life. [read it if interested]

    Melting Polar Ice Caps A “Ticking Timebomb” For Earth’s Climate

    Journalist Dahr Jamail & Professor Peter Wadhams say the resulting release of methane will lead to massive climate disruption, and that we have reached a point of no return [give it a listen]

    http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2014/05/nanotech-food-safety-fda-nano-material

    Big Dairy Is Putting Microscopic Pieces of Metal in Your Food

    The rapid emergence of nanotechnology suggests that size does, indeed, matter. It turns out that if you break common substances like silver and nickel into really, really tiny particles—measured in nanometers, which are billionths of a meter—they behave in radically different ways. For example, regular silver, the stuff of fancy tableware, doesn’t have any obvious place in sock production. But nano-size silver particles apparently do. According to boosters, when embedded in the fabric of socks, microscopic silver particles are “strongly antibacterial to a wide range of pathogens, absorb sweat, and by killing bacteria help eliminate unpleasant foot odor.” (By most definitions, a particle qualifies as “nano” when it’s 100 nanometers wide or less. By contrast, a human hair clocks in at about 80,000 nanometers in diameter.)

    According to the Project on Emerging Nanotechnologies (PEN)—a joint venture of Virginia Tech and the Wilson Center—there are more than 1,600 nanotechnology-based consumer products on the market today. If SmartSilver Anti-Odor Nanotechnology Underwear sounds like a rather intimate application for this novel technology, consider that the PEN database lists 96 food items currently on US grocery shelves that contain unlabeled nano ingredients. Examples include Dannon Greek Plain Yogurt, Silk Original Soy Milk, Rice Dream Rice Drink, Hershey’s Bliss Dark Chocolate, and Kraft’s iconic American Cheese Singles, all of which now contain nano-size titanium dioxide. As recently as 2008, only eight US food products were known to contain nanoparticles, according to a recent analysis from Friends of the Earth—a more than tenfold increase in just six years.

    All of which raises the question of safety. Radically miniaturized particles are attractive to the food and textile industries for their novel properties. Nano-size titanium dioxide, for example, is used as a color enhancer—it makes white foods like yogurt and soy milk whiter, and brightens dark products like chocolate. But what unintended effects might it have?

    That’s where the nano story gets murky. Remarkably, the US Food and Drug Administration, which oversees the safety of the food supply, both 1) acknowledges that nanoparticles pose risks that are substantially different from those of their regular-sized counterparts, and 2) has done nothing to slow down their rapid move into the food supply. [read the rest]

  27. Jim Says:

    Off topic

    Hey Wester, with you all the way man. Another coup for the rich.

    If you didn’t see my comment from a couple of threads ago in reply to a post by Pauline, I’ll paste it here. Stay safe.

    @pauline

    From the previous thread re the coup in Thailand;

    “If John Kerry is “disappointed” in the military coup, it can’t be all that bad.
    When the leaders of a violent, conquering empire (USA) are upset, you’re doing something right.”

    What an idiotic, uninformed, stupid comment.

    Maybe best to keep silent and be thought a fool rather than speak and remove all doubt, Pauline.

    Democratically elected governments being over-thrown by military/elite with distinct Fascist leanings is all bad.

    Perhaps keep your comments to NBL related matter until you are better informed.

    http://uglytruththailand.wordpress.com

  28. Guy McPherson Says:

    Jim, I wrote this ditty just for you, but you missed it the first time: “Mature, intelligent critics attack ideas, not people. Immature people attack people instead of ideas.”

  29. Steve Says:

    All these buddhists with their ridiculous crap that this beautiful samsara (earth right here and now) we have so wantonly destroyed has no real value is just more of the same human supremacist shit that got us into this death spiral in the first place. Where the fuck is your dumb ass going to be reincarnated next time when earth turns to venus. I bet then you would beg to be reicarnates as even a cockroach no matter how much percieved suffering your whiny ass had to contend with. But, oh no I am the pet of the universe. By god I am the universe’s reason to be.

  30. Bud Nye Says:

    If anyone has any interest, I just posted the following comment to Scott Johnson at Fractal Planet:

    I most certainly DO emphatically deny the corollary, that “stabilizing greenhouse gases also stabilizes the warming”. Yes, it is, after all, physics, AND NOT the simple, linear physics that you insist on invoking and narrowly focusing on. You may “know what chaos theory is”, but you clearly understand neither its basic principles nor its implications for many physical systems, most especially Earth’s global-scale systems. Meanwhile, these chaos principles and implications remain critical for this discussion, so I will continue to insist that you learn much more about it when I become aware of your continuing to discuss complex systems as though they were simple linear, reversible systems, which they are not. I will repeat, Earth’s systems are infinitely complex, reciprocally interactive systems, not simple linear systems, and NOT necessarily reversible as you (and many others) insist on and wish to believe. You super-simplistically assume controllable, reversible processes in Earth’s ecosystems–completely and dramatically unwarranted assumptions. Furthermore, you super-simplistically conflate the mass human die-off and possible extinction, which die-off has only just begun, exclusively with global warming, and focus narrowly and exclusively on it while MANY other CRITICAL processes reciprocally interact to produce it.

  31. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Bud Nye

    Great comment, Bud.

    Tad Patzek knows as much about this stuff as anyone does.

  32. Bud Nye Says:

    @ ulvfugl

    Thanks. And I thought your recent, detailed response to Logspirit concerning her misplaced vegetarian ideas quite wonderful. It reminded me of Lierre Keith’s book, The Vegetarian Myth, which I consider both outstanding and important. Prior to reading that, for a couple of decades I had emphasized eating a vegetarian diet “for ecological reasons”. I had the naïve idea that eating plants was, presumably, “better for the environment”. She set me straight on that nonsense within the first 15 pages! Thanks ulvfugl, and thanks Lierre!

  33. G. H. George Says:

    Hunky-Dorey.

  34. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    Wester

    The truth is that we are, and we will be always alone. Because each one of us live a unique reality, that others will hardly be able to understand. So do not expect somebody else to solve your problems. Because others will not know how. Usually our problems have complex roots, and unique solutions, that must be found inside of ourselves..
    We have to learn how to deal with our own problems. They are part of the learning curve.
    The same applies to people and individuals.
    In my country (Chile), we lived a bloody period in our history 40 years ago. People died. But, seen from the distance in time, guilt was on both sides. Also, what took us to that point was not something that arose from one day to another. The roots of problem can be found along the ten previous years, as we as a country were unable to handle some liberties. That period ended with a collision of two big groups, in opposite positions, and a country with a big economic crisis (like Venezuela today, that is living very much the same situation we lived in 1972-1973). Everything ended with a civil war. And a dictator.
    But today we are in peace, with us, and with the past.
    People from Thailand will have to learn from their mistakes, is the only way to avoid this to happen again.
    If the solution comes from abroad, there will be no learning, and the same will happen again, and again.
    Just take a look at the history of Europe and USA, how many (internal) wars, and dead people. What you see today had a price in human lives. The examples of history are available to all of us, if we as a country cannot learn from them, it is our fault. That will have a price.
    A country is like a family, their problems cannot be solved by people from outside, because each family has a very special reality, that only the people from the family can understand.
    My suggestion, try to learn from history, and filter it to your reality. There are always lessons that apply.

  35. Robin Datta Says:

    What BonobObama has to contend with:
    FULL DENIAL: An Extinction Level Event

    “No country can get away with electing Circus Clowns to Congress” – or endangered species to the White House.

  36. BenjaminTheDonkey Says:

    Find a way out says: Jefferson Airplane
    Jefferson Airplane says:

    3/5 Of A Mile In 10 Seconds

    Doomers are freaks who get stares
    ‘Cause it’s not what one normally shares;
    So I leave that behind
    And go online to find
    Other freaks who will share my cares.
    ==

    Procol Harum says:

    A Whiter Shade of Pale

    As the doomer was telling his tale
    About how we’re all going to fail,
    She hid her fright mostly,
    But her face, first just ghostly,
    Turned a whiter shade of pale.

  37. Henry Says:

    RE & Godofredo — I look forward to your conversations about real implementation of those ideas. The engineering perspective is vital. If you build it wrong, they won’t come.

    RE, I know it’s mostly to be imagined, but do you have prior experience living in such collectives, even under current and past “easy” conditions? Not to say “don’t try”, because what alternatives are there going to be?

    Steve — I have to throw at you the classic last quote from “Tonto”: “What do you mean ‘we’, Kemo Sabe?” Your whiteness or brownness can exist mostly in your state of mind, or identification with a culture.

    You lump everybody together in these either/or identities, but that’s not how they see themselves. They have their own sets of problems and conflicts, but not exactly the ones you are trying to describe to us. Until you’ve lived with these, you just don’t know what those situations really are. Not your fault, just the Americentric egotism we were born and raised with.

    I had an interesting three years working with Vietnamese refuges and their children (and grandchildren). With the older ones I could discuss most of our shared history; the younger ones had almost no idea what we were talking about, and were mainly concerned with getting on with their own lives. (Although one young Cambodian woman’s account of escape as a 9-year-old through the Killing Fields was the most horrific personal history I have ever listened to.)

    But let me propose one “color-blending” idea: Suppose you did move in to such a territory, and instead of “invading” with your white “supremacy” bias (oh yes, it’s there in us all), you brought some cash, worked a bit online and on US/Europe visits, and adopted or supported a few orphans (brown or otherwise) in your new location.

    Furniture, toys, volunteer teaching, if you don’t want to take ‘em in where you live. Openings abound.

    There are plenty of such needy people around, with almost no social safety net (except for nearly free health care) and, were you to join in with their lives — their very REAL and not mere rhetorical blogging topic lives — you would find yourself welcomed. And challenged to bridge the two cultures within your own mind, erasing everything and starting fresh.

    Takes years, peeling and peeling away the layers of the very biases and sense of entitlement we discuss here each day. But it can be done, as each step is worthy of the effort.

    I’m glad that others here have poked at the population myth. You don’t emit carbon unless you’ve got the bucks to buy the fuels with, although the rising middle classes are plunging ahead with overspending on cars and trips they may someday rue thinking they could afford.

    (Exception: The clearing and burning of forests by poor farmers, Indonesia and Brazil being among the tragedies that are doing us all in.)

    The average American spends, what?, $2000-$3000 a year on fuels. Try putting that into a 3rd world budget of $6000 – $8000 for a family. Ain’t gonna happen. And yet they’re tasked with spending $500-$800 a year on bus fares.

    But quite often, passionate opinions such as yours are a first step toward entering the realities that others live in. (Of course, you could start the easy way, with films, such as the classic “City of God” and the brilliant “Favela Rising.” And then you will ask yourself, “How would I begin to live in this world?”

    Happy adventuring!

  38. Michael Says:

    I grew up in Burkburnett, Texas, which is about 15 minutes from Wichita Falls. Texas. As many of you may know, Wichita Falls is currently experiencing a Stage 5 Drought Catastrophe. It has taken them three years to reach Stage Five. I’m feeling a strong sense of loss for my home town area.

    Here is the link to the official city website:

    http://tx-wichitafalls.civicplus.com/index.aspx?NID=1257

    Given the vast amount of information about climate change you have at your disposal, what do you think I can expect for Wichita Falls and Burkburnett in the next three to five years?

    I’m beginning to think the entire area is beyond help now.

    In terms of personal context, my 80-year old mother lives in a nursing home in Wichita Falls and I have a 63-year old friend caretaking his 80-year old mother in Burkburnett.

    I am worried for their safety given the drought conditions and the impression I have for the near future as a result of reading Guy’s information and watching his videos.

    Thank you in advance for your input.

  39. mo flow Says:

    Steve –

    By god I am the universe’s reason to be

    and the layers of irony just keep piling up.

  40. Robin Datta Says:

    With the yell niño on the way, California will see plenty of rains later this year, and even flooding is predicted. Something along those lines will be true for most of the southern part of ‘mericuh. How powerful the punch will be depends on how strong niño’s arm will be, but the forecasts say that this will be one humdinger of a niño.

  41. dairymandave Says:

    Michael – This is what the “experts” say. One chance in a hundred…based on the past. But their model “will need to be updated”. What did they really say?

    From the Wichitafalls News Letter:

    City staff does our own water availability
    calculations based on lake levels and daily
    usage. However, as our lakes are now at their
    lowest historic points, we wanted to have
    a third party expert come in and do a more
    detailed examination. We contracted with
    the engineering firm of Freese and Nichols
    to perform a water availability analysis,
    sometimes referred to as a Conditional
    Reliability Assessment, using the most recent
    volumetric data from our lakes to determine
    just how long our water would last. Freese
    and Nichols has been in business for 120
    years and is the premier engineering firm for
    reservoir development and long-range water
    supply planning. The Conditional Reliability
    Assessment is a process by which reservoirs
    are modeled based on historic hydrologic
    conditions as well as the current level of
    demand placed on the water supply. For the
    purpose of this particular study, demands
    used in the model were, 10 MGD from the
    reservoirs and 5 MGD of reuse water. The
    results of the modeling indicate that under
    the worst hydraulic conditions ever to be
    experienced by the Wichita Falls area,
    there would be at least 24 months of water
    supply remaining. This scenario assumes
    2011 climatic conditions (heat, rainfall and
    evaporation rates) and no inflow into the
    lakes. No inflow simply means that when
    we get any rainfall, we assume none of it
    actually makes its way down the watershed
    and into the lakes. Keep in mind that these
    are unprecedented conditions, even worse
    than the 1930’s Dust Bowl era and the 1950’s
    drought of record. Furthermore, the models
    indicate that there is less than a 1% chance
    that our reservoirs will EVER run dry. In
    other words, with our continued conservation
    efforts and the Direct Potable Reuse Supply,
    it is VERY UNLIKELY that this would ever
    happen. Now that doesn’t mean they won’t get
    close. Things may get a lot worse before they
    get better. This is a living, breathing water
    model that will need to be updated periodically
    to ensure its accuracy going forward.

  42. Michael Says:

    Thanks for the responses. It seems the authority figures in Wichita County are just filling the air with static until they can figure out a way to absolve themselves of legal culpability as the water continues to dry up. The local paper is running a story today about the “poorest wheat crop ever” for the county.

    In any event, drought seems to be the “new normal” for this part of the Plains.

    I’m still trying to figure out how the citizens of Wichita County will react as they slowly realize there is no going back now.

  43. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Bud Nye

    Logspirit has told us he is male. I have no problem at all with people who want to be vegans or vegetarians, or pretty much anything else. I think people should have maximum freedom to choose what they want to do and think and say. It’s only when their activities start to impinge on others, then it begins to get tricky. I don’t think neighbours have a fight to abuse their children, or to be cruel to animals, or pollute the environment, and so on. But humans have always had these problems, and had to fight and argue until they reached a resolution.

    The problem I had with Logspirit is over the arguments used to justify his position, and over the crusade he is on to convert other people to his beliefs, particularly when applied to me personally.

    I think you are doing a great job trying to educate Johnson and his followers. I can’t be bothered with them.

    @ david higham

    I was surprised to see the worldwatch institute report…etc

    I was also surprised, because it must harm their reputation.

    I’d almost go so far as to call it fraudulent. It’s false accounting, like bending the numbers on a business’s accounts to make it seem profitable and hide the losses, when putting it on the market.

    If you look at the graph for CO2 levels at Mauna Loa, it rises and falls annually, as the vegetation grows and then dies back with the seasons.

    That graph line would have stayed level, other than the natural seasonal fluctuation, if it had not been for the addition coming from fossil fuels, which had previously been sequestered in geological formations.

    The main source has been oil and coal.

    But then we’ve removed the forests, which were carbon sinks. We’ve raised the temperature, which melts the permafrost, and messes up other systems, so we get additional CO2 and methane, from soil, clathrates, etc.

    But as you said, I don’t think there is any way to justify animals breathing out CO2 as being an added source. That carbon would be just part of the carbon that is cycling around in the system. I think that paper is polemical propaganda, almost as bad as saying CO2 is harmless plantfood.

  44. Paul Chefurka Says:

    @david higham, thanks for injecting a note of sanity. That 51% number pegged my BS meter too, and for the same reason. Animals are all part of the short-term carbon cycle, folks. Wild buffalo didn’t destroy the planet for that very reason, even though there was almost as much buffalo biomass at their estimated peak as there is domesticated ruminant biomass today.

    The problem is the fossil fuel that we use in our “farming” techniques, not the animals themselves.

  45. M.W. Says:

    Replying to Godofredo Aravena, it sounds like there’s a piece of Chilean history missing, namely the fact that the CIA and the Chicago Boys (Milton Friedman’s economics) engineered the overthrow of Allende and installation of dictator Pinochet. The CIA did it again and again, Iran (oil), Guatemala (United Fruit, bananas), Africa (minerals). Obviously Iraq for oil. The Chicago Boys rushed into Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union with their cowboy capitalism, caused all kinds of misery.

    “BonobObama” sounds like a typical thing humans say to one another. Perhaps you meant it as a compliment since unlike human primates, bonobos are renown for peace and love. Certainly bonobos aren’t destroying the planet.

  46. Find a way out Says:

    Hi all

    Thanks for the replies

    @Tom

    Reading way back up the thread to comments on nanotech and all.

    Military is using them in textiles to facilitate breathing of textiles in extreme conditions.
    Most exotic uses are top secret and You Dont Want to know ;)

    They have also spurned new markets – like cell phones.

    Living in Europe we get monthly updates on facts and political announcements on the nefarious consequences pf using cell phones. Yep, EU recommends we redo the whole thing…

    For ex.
    ORANGE , French phone operator as well as other players have had to tale off cellphone emitters deployment in publiplaces because the wave density has been shown to create problems for the electrodynamics of cell membraneorosity.
    IOW, the waves are “drying” up cell membrane frontiers -thus screwing up inter-cellular comms.

    Effects ?

    Just your ole standard consequences : hypertension, cancers, tumors.

    In fact, got a sister in law missing half her brain due to tumor from standard home cell phones …
    Smiling is now very difficult for her.

    VERY BIG PROBLEM…

    Just another example of emerging market technics driving implementation, deployment of systems before anything is well understood of that technology’s consquences for human health.

    BTW, we have call center operators dying younger than other job spaces, people suiciding, etc.
    All questions/problems NOT being asked by mogols on Monocco yachts who drive the businesses in these EMT sectors. So the who business sector driving modern comms is suffering casualties…

    So… Risk with nanotech is that we don’t know Whadda F we’re doing really.
    Anyone tells you differently, get up an leave the room or have them imprisoned…

    This is a market sector which exists PURELY for the bucks to be made there..


    @ steve
    Gee buddhists aren’t bad folk.
    Whether reincarnation or anything exists IS NOT PROVABLE dude, so chill!

    Many Universes is a set of theories being pushed by Oxford Quantum Theory folk (David Deutsch, Wallace, Saunders).

    The idea originally came from a student of Einstein, J.A.WHEELER who taught a guy named Everrett at Princeton.

    Everrett left Princeton after PHD on Many Worlds Relative State Theory to work with Von Neumann, father of Gme Theory taken up by Nash and Everrett in the think tank in the 60′s called M.A,D. : a war games computer theoretical approach to
    Mutually Assured Destruction…

    Many Worlds didn’t pay well. So go chill Steve :)

    Scientific certainty, proof.

    Nope. Even Einstein is only playsible. Look what happened to Sir Isaac Newton…
    bridge theories..,

    even our greatest theory – Quantum Theory – is incompatible with QFT.

    So I guess -EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS APPROXIMATIVE. Even the question whether you are Real-ly alive or just a holographic projection in Super-string theories.(Susskind).

    So, everything we know -as you know it – is absolutely “false” – at best a metaphor provided through science coloring books connecting the dotted lines.

    Well, medicines do work, right?
    Well, apparently somewhere between 30-50% of there effects have been proved to be PLACEBO.

    Yep Steve everything you know has its origin in your MIND – true or false !
    You decide ;)

    =========
    Jefferson Airplane.

    Thanks for the cross-ref to the 3/5 mile piece which was written AFTER the Pooneil stuff ;)
    Learning process ?


    Ok,

    Whatz my bitch?

    Well, I think that Guy’s stuff points via climate types of arguments to bigger problems in fact.

    Using a concept he promotes, collapse.

    I mean the kind of “collapse talked about by scientistsv: Jared Diamond, Tainter, Calliwell, Limits of Growth types.

    Social scientists.

    The magical demon in this idea is thatb complex converging chaotic phenomen are seriously converging, and if wecstudied statistical correlations between them, we’d easily see the strangecattractors at work.


    Convergence.
    Perfect Storms, several of them.
    Biblical proportions.

    Yep it’s all there in the extenalized unconscious which is thematized, characterized in celluloid, silicon by zillions of instances daily.

    In fact, I think humanity is on a suicidal trend.

    Anyone care to PROVE me scientifically wrong ?


    Ok. Volunteers, are we gonna prove that our generation
    Got avRevolution !
    Or just sit here get fat old and cynical ?

    I ASK YOU : is IT worth the BITs we’re spending to try to stop it ?

    IOW, if one ball of knots doesn’t drive us to the brink, another will.
    No escape. Checkmate.
    GAME OVER.

    That is what buddhist meditation shows you -the intuition that it is ALL impermanent.

    Hey, to be fair, the Hindu vedic thought schools predated those of Buddha, and yes Steve, Buddha was DISGUSTED with what the hindu world left.

    A world of pre-ordained destinies, cast society, in-born wealth, fractured social classes.

    The hindus had even gave our ridiculous situation a name : loosely translated as GAME : lila.


    Flash fast forward to nanotech, body armor, The Edge of Tomorrow, Minority Report and Matrix ideologies in celluloid.

    What do ALL those gamers have in come ?

    No way out.
    Game over.
    Take the right pill and you forgetvit all

    Immpeccable dilemma.

    Thanks forvyour time all
    Namasté

  47. Find a way out Says:

    @M.W.

    New Naomi Klein book out in september WHAT CHANGES EVERYTHING

    A question ? A strategy ?
    Yep, tax 90 major globalized corporations responsible for this mess.
    Make them pay for solution & clean up !

    Do you think Obama, Poutin or gog knows Who’s Next to get Fooled Again
    Believes they’ll really do much of anything without making money first ;)

  48. Henry Says:

    Just a quick on-the-run, RE’s economics reminds of me of a question to go into another time: the prognosis of economic or financial collapse somehow being equated with the collapse of IndCiv, and therefore an end, or reduction, of carbon burning. This, I doubt.

    Both are intertwined, but cause and effect are not clear, as they operate in somewhat parallel economies, and I suspect the burning goes on until market (and subsidized) prices no longer make sense to the buyers of carbon inputs.

    ——

    ulvfugl — the removal of the forests. Last summer, I went for the 10 mile drive loop through one of my favorite forests. It was 82F outside, and 72F immediately inside. There, in micro-measure and macro-impact, was the explanation of what is to come. The continent, indeed nearly all continents, were covered with forests, and here I could picture that ante-Anthropocene world, in balanced temperature, and breathe the purest air available almost anywhere.

    ——-

    When I said “population myth” in a previous post, I did not mean that higher numbers do not put pressure on agriculture to clear land and upset the natural balance. Just that, as individuals, these folks do not have the 5x to 20x impact of the average N. Hemisphere white person. But you already knew that.

    ——-

    Looking forward to Naomi’s book. She’s onto climate, so that’s likely the topic. She’s a fighter, and has her antennae tuned to what’s happening, and many listen to her. Dahr Jamail, too. Soon we’ll have all the NPR lib’rals panicking, in their own unique flailing style. Oh well, habits of a lifetime…

    ——–

    The trouble with an upward-arcing curve, both of climate impact and of realization, is that no one knows where it will be when the summer’s gone… ready yourself best you can for surprises all around!

  49. David Goza Says:

    I wrote and circulated this essay almost two and a half years ago, and am moved (by what? couldn’t tell you!) to share it here:

    Some dark thoughts for the new year
    (written in lieu of a list of resolutions)

    One of the things that really sets us apart from the rest of the animals is our sense of the tragic. It is out of that sense that religions were created: they are in large part a response to that sense. (They are also a means of control, but that’s another essay.)

    It is utterly human to view the world as tragic, and almost inevitable that a thinking person will come to see it in that way. But the world is not tragic except insofar as that uniquely human sense deems it so. The pre-human world was often catastrophic but never tragic. And when humans go extinct, the world will revert to its non-tragic condition: the gates to the Garden of Eden will swing wide once again and the fortification around it will crumble like the Berlin Wall.

    We and we alone are the bringers of tragedy. I can almost imagine the whole non-human world (whatever’s left of it after the fact) heaving a huge sigh of relief once we’ve bred and/or nuked ourselves to oblivion and joined the long catalog of the once-was-but-is-no-longer.

    I do not mean to suggest that our tragic sense is something not-quite-real or unimportant, a thing to be dismissed lightly: it is a great fact of the universe and will continue to be, so long as our species persists; it also, of course, brings a special kind of meaning to our lives. The arts too were born out of the spirit of tragedy.

    My own tragic instinct is deeply stirred by the prospect of what lies dead ahead for the human species, and I am certainly not alone in that. Deep down, we all realize a great truth: in order for us to last another decade much less another century, we’re going to have to stop human population growth NOW. And guess what. We’re about to do just that. All you’ve got to do in order to achieve population stability is make the death rate climb until it matches the birth rate, and it wouldn’t take all that many horrific but relatively localized wars to reach parity. That project is already well underway. But if you get too many wars going at once, with too many desperate participants, there’s a good chance they’ll bleed together into one final worldwide convulsion that will do far more to the human population than merely stabilize it.

    World War III is inevitable. It’s going to be fought on many fronts, but not, I believe, over many years: it will be savage but short. It will be a fight to the death over dwindling resources critical to our crumbling civilization: petroleum, metals, arable land, and – finally, if it goes on long enough – water. (And even as we go after those precious things, we’ll be burning them up in the process of grabbing them.) In terms of alliances, it’s going to be a messy and complicated conflict because most of the countries involved are going to be in an advanced stage of collapse at the same time, and it will thus at times be difficult to figure out who’s in charge – whose orders to obey. This war will inevitably involve nuclear weapons. An exchange of this vicious technology will probably begin locally – between Pakistan and India, say; but such exchanges will surely spread and will finally stir the ICBMs to life – those engines of death that have been crouching silently for decades in silos all across the Midwestern United States and around the former USSR. There’s never yet been a weapon invented that hasn’t finally been used to its full intended capacity. Our thermonuclear technology will prove to have been no exception (provided, of course, that the missiles are launched before a well-aimed EMP disables them). That is the way that our species – and with it, a lot of other life – will go extinct. And it will happen in the very near future: there’s nothing to prevent it happening this very day.

    I experience this realization as a paradox: on the one hand, I find myself wishing that the inevitable could be postponed indefinitely, especially so that my son Jim can have all the years he wants; on the other, I know that the longer things go on, the worse things will get. This paradox is a radical instance of that which we experience as tragic: it’s a double bind from which there is no escape. It so happens that there’s no turning this ocean liner around, so I think we have no choice but to reconcile ourselves to what lies ineluctably ahead. Those who hold all the power don’t see it as in their interest to change course (even if they imagined it to be possible – and I doubt that it is). And they’re certainly not going down without a fight, no matter how many people join the OWS movement or anything like it in Egypt, Libya or elsewhere.

    Here’s what I think: the hundred or so people at the very top of the human food chain didn’t get there by being stupid. They’re not distracted by the insipidities of NASCAR, Dancing with the Stars, American Idol, the daily astrology column, designer basketball shoes and fundamentalist religion. They know exactly what’s going on and what’s coming at us: they realize that the planet will not continue to support them in the manner to which they have become accustomed. They know that over the course of about a century and a half, all of us together have just about bled the Earth dry of those “natural resources” that have made their lavish lives possible. They know that a great many people are going to die in the very near future, and they intend to avoid that fate if possible, for as long as possible. They have plans that the rest of us can’t even imagine. I’ll bet some of them think they can survive a nuclear war, and have made elaborate preparations to do so. At least they’re counting on that being a safer bet than letting their fellow humans continue to breed the whole species into oblivion, them included.

    I have no clear idea of how it all might unfold, but it seems to me that some things are pretty predictable. The Middle East will certainly go up in flames. I can’t see how a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan could be avoided once Teheran is leveled. A parallel exchange of nuclear volleys between India and China is also not unthinkable: their gigantic populations and rapidly-growing industrial plants will pit them against each other in a contest for disappearing resources. The U.S. will surely go to war with Russia over whatever petroleum might still be sucked out of Middle-Eastern deserts fused into glass, and if Mexico finds us in our overextended state to be an irresistible target, we might very well lose Texas. (I’m not sure I would experience that as much of a loss.) I doubt, however, that a faceoff between the U.S. and Russia would last all that long: the ICBMs will be rattling their cages, yearning to be free.

    I’ve heard Mahler’s Sixth Symphony thousands of times and have studied the score carefully. I know the piece both thoroughly and intimately (that is, objectively and subjectively). But on the night of the Winter Solstice I listened to a recording I’d never heard before: Leonard Bernstein leading the Vienna Philharmonic. (Bernstein’s recording with the New York Philharmonic on perishable vinyl was my first Mahler Sixth, and I absolutely wore that recording out – but this was new to me. Despite some bad engineering calls and a few missed notes, this may well prove to be my favorite of all the recordings of the Sixth I’ve heard to date.) And midway through the final movement something important dawned on me: autobiographical as it seems, this symphony is not about Mahler – it’s about all of us, about the human species. No wonder the composer excised the third hammer blow from the Finale. He saw what was coming and couldn’t bear to face it. He had spent his life trying to bring beauty to a world he loved so deeply that he could not tolerate the idea of its obliteration. In both of his recordings, Bernstein restored the third hammer blow.

    I played the entire recording a second time, and heard Mahler’s Sixth Symphony with new ears. It was as though I was hearing it for the first time.

    **************

    To kick this essay up a notch: the most ironic thing about our looming extinction is that it’s being driven by recently-developed technologies that have enabled our population to grow unchecked on the one hand, and wipe out humans in large numbers on the other – technologies that have been made possible by our sciences, which began to awaken in earnest only a few hundred years ago. Over the course of those centuries, the practitioners of those sciences have unlocked the secrets of the universe: we can almost see straight through to the heart of the Big Bang (or the Mind of God, if you prefer). It is an immense achievement that is finally, in our time, about to be brought to completion – right about the time that the only species capable of doing and appreciating it dies at its own hand. It doesn’t get more ironic than that.

    In us, the universe has come to know itself. With our extinction, that self-knowledge will vanish so completely that it will be as if it had never existed. Mahler’s third hammer blow is the most final thing one can imagine.

    Evolution by natural selection is a law that must pertain to the entire cosmos, at all times and in all places. Richard Dawkins argues persuasively that in the course of evolution, an overall increase in complexity is inevitable – this too is law-like. That seems to lead to the conclusion that on any planet capable of supporting large, complex life, something like us will eventually arise provided the planet remains sufficiently stable over a long enough span of time. (Surely some of them do: Earth obviously has.) And if the number of habitable planets in the universe is as great as it seems it must be, both over time and in space at any given time, then close parallels to the story of life on this planet must have been played out countless times, and are being played out, and will be played out. I wonder if that story always, inevitably, ends with something like us: a species that grows so much excess computing capacity at the leading end of its digestive tract that it spins out of control and eats its host planet – coming to know and destroy itself at the same time.

    If one postulates it as a natural law, somehow it doesn’t feel so bad.

  50. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    To M.W

    There are no missing parts in my summary.
    It is just that some parts of the history during that period are not relevant for the topic.

    Many will want to see behind Allende´s fall, the CIA.
    But the truth is that the whole politic scenario of the previous years was in total chaos.
    Three positions, none with majority. Each one different to the others.
    And no possible way out, because neither of the three positions would agree to work together with one of the others.
    By 1973, Allende´s economy was taking us nowhere, with more 300% inflation, and all the industries in total chaos, because most of them had been taken by the government. Everybody felt the owner, and nobody was working. The country was not producing anything. Te get a piece of bread, you should stay for long hours in a long line, and maybe, you would be lucky, so when your turn comes, there would be still some bread.
    And “our” Chicago Boys (Milton Friedman´s followers) have to be seen with care. First, they came a couple of years after the rise of Pinochet. They provided the basis for a new economic system, that changed the country. It can be easily related our position in South America today with the economic system that our Chicago Boys introduced between 1975 and 1985. It was an experiment, that along the years has been adjusted.
    So if the CIA helped some positions, before September 1973, the dices were already thrown, probably by 1969. Remember, we are talking of the late 60´s, a too idealistic period, when everything seem to be possible.
    United States and Europe suffered some social unrest those years, but as more mature countries, they were able to deal with it in a “controlled” way.
    We were a democracy being built, so we were immature.
    And paid the price.

  51. M.W. Says:

    Money isn’t the real issue, the underlying issue is the abysmal rearing by homo sapiens of their young. Of all the primates, humans are hands down the worst when it comes to raising their young. Children are considered property, they’re beaten, sexually abused, verbally abused, left to “cry themselves out” and otherwise abandoned. All this later turns into a maelstrom of emotions that turns into greed and evil large and small. Between childhood baggage, evolutionary imperatives, and brainwashing (a la Edward Bernays, etc.) humans simply don’t have the ability to understand anything outside of their flatland of fun, whether they’re rich or poor, powerful or powerless. It’s quite the tragedy.

  52. M.W. Says:

    David, our posts crossed. Thank you for your essay. I only want to say that there is little self knowledge in humans. Humans have no insight into themselves, why they do things, why they want things, why they need to be so consistently and creatively violent. The History Channel did a series on life after people, perhaps you’ve seen it. They suggested that the planet will come back eventually and there will be no one there to appreciate it. That assumes that humans are appreciating the planet now. Obviously they’re not. Nature is a subset of the economy, haven’t you heard? With appreciation such as humans bestow, who needs enemies.

    Godofredo, I do understand that it’s hard to believe that the big hearted U.S., with our Statue of Liberty welcoming the poor and downtrodden to our shores, at least the ones who didn’t come in chains and for which we fought a civil war to keep in chains (I’m white BTW), for as kind hearted a person as you seem to be it’s hard to believe that we would overthrow democratically elected Mossadegh and install the Shah of Iran (the movie Argo memorializes some of that); likewise the now iconic coup staged by United Fruit when the banana industry was nationalized; democratically elected Lumumba of the Congo, we deposed him and put in dictator Mobutu; when the media, including NPR, trumpeted that Russian MIG’s were landing in El Salvador when there were no MIG’s at all, it was a fiction, a red herring to distract from the election they were having. Did you know that Whitewater (President Clinton) was another five-year long fiction totally made up by our illustrious paper of record, the New York Times? It is all hard to believe. I’m curious, how is Che Guevara received in your country?

  53. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    To M.W.

    Children are a very special aspect of our civilization.
    All the bad we see around can be perpetuated, or changed. Depending on how our children are raised or nurtured.
    It is up to us , in some point, to break the circle of bad things we see.
    Because children are totally shaped by their parents, if you want to change the world, children are the most powerful and lasting way to give sometime in the future, the possibility of those changes to take place. We are in a relay race, we have the possibility of doing some thing (but not enough), as we are only part of the team. Our children will continue, and their children, and so.
    Most people do not understand that if we want changes, our children are the way.
    But for that, you have to have children, with that purpose. That has a problem, you become second in importance, because your children become the most relevant responsibility of your life. They need not so much material things, they need care, love, attention and mainly ethics and a guidance.
    If you take seriously parenthood, no matter what your children become once adults, you can be sure they will do the right things. Towards the changes required.

    This IC culture is mainly sustained by our egos, so in some way, invites you not to have children, so you can be more only you, for you. But, as IC needs more consumers, and then, more children, it exploits the figure of the family as the ultimate goal in life. But at the same time, tries to take the most advantage of you, through your children, that makes having them a heavy load, if you play the game, of just producing more consumers.
    You can certainly choose not to play that game, and stay somewhere in the middle. By making the purpose of life, the changes required, for your children, by your children. Then you start living for a future you may not see. But, does it matter?
    Besides, responsible parenthood will provide you with some time for you own, and you will be able to do “your” things anyway. That will probably happen in the late forties, a perfect moment. Because you will be more mature, and able to note what worth, and what not, and so, use you energy the best way.
    In the end, it is about guiding and giving them the necessary tools of awareness and ethics, so they can find their own way, and built their own world, but certainly along the same path you are (were), that you showed and gave them.
    No matter the darkness around, well nurtured children, will have always a light, showing the right path.
    Do you have children?

  54. kevin moore Says:

    A word of advise to Americans and people living in other countries where driving on the wrong side of the road is mandatory:

    Most humans are right-handed, and the natural positioning towards a potential threat is towards the left. Britain, Japan and numerous other countries, including NZ, retain the natural left-hand positioning of people and vehicles when passing but much of the world has been persuaded to adopt the wrong side.

    It would pay Americans and other mis-trained people who have a desire to get though the first bottleneck to practice passing other people on the left rather than the right, and as conditions worsen actually start reverting to the appropriate side when riding horses or pulling handcarts etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_drive

  55. G. H. George Says:

    Yesterday evening, French energy giant Total told investors that it would be shuttering its upcoming oil sands project.

    The head of Total’s Canadian division had this to say about why the company is pulling the plug on the project: “Joslyn is facing the same challenge most of the industry world-wide [is], in the sense that costs are continuing to inflate when the oil price and specifically the netbacks for the oil sands are remaining stable at best – squeezing the margins.”

    Joslyn has been plagued with problems from the start. Originally, Total planned to use wells instead of trucks and shovels to extract the bitumen. This quite literally blew up in its face when one of the company’s wells exploded.

    This news is important to investors for one main reason: It symbolizes how much of a problem cost overruns are for oil sands producers.

  56. Reverse Engineer Says:

    “Just a quick on-the-run, RE’s economics reminds of me of a question to go into another time: the prognosis of economic or financial collapse somehow being equated with the collapse of IndCiv, and therefore an end, or reduction, of carbon burning. This, I doubt.

    Both are intertwined, but cause and effect are not clear, as they operate in somewhat parallel economies, and I suspect the burning goes on until market (and subsidized) prices no longer make sense to the buyers of carbon inputs.”-H

    Money and Energy are integrally connected, and the collapse of this monetary system will bring to a nearly complete halt the extraction of and burning of fossil fuels.

    I have 3 more parts coming on the Money Valve series, perhaps the relationships will be more clear once I work through the whole system.

    I could also speculate on why there was precisely enough recoverable fossil fuels to bring PETM carbon content into the atmosphere again, but that is past the economic arguments and more about homeostasis and set points in a complex system. That would be a whole other topic to cover.

    RE

  57. pat Says:

    Just what we need: “…a whole other topic to cover.”

    Just sittin’ on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  58. ugotstahwonder Says:

    @godofredo – not to put you on the spot and maybe it’s in poor taste to ask, but did you have any sense of what Michael Ruppert meant when he wrote that his suicide was ‘for the children’? And since I’m already impliedly out on this limb – would those of us without children make our greatest contribution at this time by following his lead? Of course, you don’t have to answer, maybe it’s rhetorical. I don’t know. These are, after all, largely unchartered waters we are all in.

  59. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    Pat

    The sad thing about you is that with your permanent attitude, you are doing nothing, but being alive, producing CO2, and making the situation worse, for nothing.

    You act just like any other consumer of our IC.
    With a difference, you are aware.
    That is worse.
    So you are part of a third group:
    -There are some people aware that is doing something. Promoting and discussing ideas, possible solutions, or simply taking action in a concrete way.
    -There are some people unaware, that is doing nothing. Just living, you can expect that from this people.
    -And there´s some people aware, that is doing nothing. Just living (“staring out the window”). You are a good example of the third group.

    You even don´t even kill yourself. If you defend and promote a position, at least you should practice what you say.
    And about not procreate, there is a big topic to cover, that you neither defend. That is the least thing you should do.
    You are a left side zero.

    To be honest, you do not deserve a line. But I had to say something to you for once in my life.

  60. Robin Datta Says:

    In us, the universe has come to know itself.

    The body (including the brain) is insentient, as is the effect of the functioning of the brain, reified as the “mind”. There is no “awareness” or “consciousness” in the universe. There is no colour in a flower: all flowers are black and invisible in the absence of light, as in a pitch-dark night. They can still be deduced from tactile and olfactory sensation but both of those exist in awareness. The universe exists to the extent it is illuminated by consciousness, not the other way around. Consciousness itself has no content, the Void: Sunyata, Ain Sof. It has no handles to grasp it through the intellect, and hence is called Void. Yet it gives the appearance of being to all beings.

    I wonder if that story always, inevitably, ends with something like us:

    No need to wonder, just look up Fermi’s paradox in Wikipedia.

    coming to know and destroy itself at the same time.

    Humans do not know themselves. The knower is not the body-mind complex. Anything that is known is not the knower. The knower is self-aware directly, but not in intellectually as in “aware that it is aware that it is aware that it is aware …” ad infinitum, an infinite regression.

    Humans have no insight into themselves, why they do things, why they want things, why they need to be so consistently and creatively violent.

    When the insight develops, the human is seen to be a biological automaton, a meat-robot:

    “A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them.” Bhagavad Gita 5: 8-9

    if you want to change the world, children are the most powerful and lasting way to give sometime in the future, the possibility of those changes to take place.

    With the dieback/dieoff, cheeren will be compost. Without a subsequent set to continue composting.

    Our children will continue, and their children, and so.

    Until the dieback/dieoff terminates it.

    But for that, you have to have children, with that purpose.

    With the population currently in overshoot, the only purpose may well be as rather expensive compost.

    In the end, it is about guiding and giving them the necessary tools of awareness and ethics, so they can find their own way, and built their own world, but certainly along the same path you are (were), that you showed and gave them.

    Until they are squashed in the bottleneck. No amount of “necessary tools of awareness and ethics” is going to dilate the bottleneck.

    No matter the darkness around, well nurtured children, will have always a light, showing the right path.

    They will also be the last instances of human compost in their lineages.

  61. RE Says:

    “The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.”-Pat

    Did you take a Rain Check on Saving the Planet in favor of trolling my threads?

    RE

  62. Martin Says:

    Godofredo,

    I’m glad you got all that off your chest. Do you have a strong stomach? Sometimes when people take an amoral position, it can be hard to take. It is tempting to see that person as depraved. For example, the late George Carlin, the American standup comedian, towards the end of his life, said he regarded everything that people do as entertainment. He would have included, I have no doubt, the recent shooting spree in Santa Barbara. Some college student can’t get laid. Goes out and shoots people at random. Ha ha ha.

    I admit I’m not fully comfortable with the idea that such a thing is entertaining. Certainly, you cannot say it publicly (unless you’re a standup: then it’s okay).

    You will most likely not know the old comedy variety programme The Goon Show. This was a BBC radio show that featured the voice talents of Peter Sellers, Spike Milligan and Harry Secombe, who between them performed a wide range of primary and secondary characters. Some of these characters had catchphrases that had become famous and, as often as not, were said at some point in the show to gales of laughter from the audience.

    “He’s fallen in the water.”
    “You silly, twisted boy, you.”

    Perhaps you could think of Pat’s “Thou shalt not procreate” as a similarly funny catchphrase.

  63. Tom Says:

    Godofredo:

    There’s no way pat is making anything any worse than it already is. He didn’t cause Fukushima the last I checked, nor the BP Gulf debacle, invade Iraq or anything else, so his breathing – like yours – is negligible. As many on this site have said, it’s the “doing something” that seems to be the problem. I’ve been fighting fracking for years, petitioning on street corners, at farmers’ markets and the like. What good did it do? I helped convince one state senator to co-sponsor a bill putting a moratorium on the practice until the industry can do it “safely.” Since then, nothing has changed except that the industry is finding out that it doesn’t pay and they are voluntarily giving it up in many cases. So it was a big waste of time learning experience [the lesson: appealing to politicians would have been called a glacially slow process, but now glaciers are moving much faster than they are.]

    Do what you love Godofredo. Try doing something about this:

    http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/study-dangerous-storms-peaking-further-north-south-past-0514

    Study: Dangerous storms peaking further north, south than in past

    New analysis of cyclones shows migration away from tropics and toward the poles in recent decades.

    Comment

    Powerful, destructive tropical cyclones are now reaching their peak intensity farther from the equator and closer to the poles, according to a new study co-authored by an MIT scientist.

    The results of the study, published today in the journal Nature, show that over the last 30 years, tropical cyclones — also known as hurricanes or typhoons — are moving poleward at a rate of about 33 miles per decade in the Northern Hemisphere and 38 miles per decade in the Southern Hemisphere.

    “The absolute value of the latitudes at which these storms reach their maximum intensity seems to be increasing over time, in most places,” says Kerry Emanuel, an MIT professor and co-author of the new paper. “The trend is statistically significant at a pretty high level.”

    And while the scientists who conducted the study are still investigating the atmospheric mechanisms behind this change, the trend seems consistent with a warming climate.

    “It may mean the thermodynamically favorable conditions for these storms are migrating poleward,” adds Emanuel, the Cecil and Ida Green Professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences at MIT.

    The implications are serious, since the movement of peak intensity means regions further north and south of the equator, which have not previously had to face many landfalls by violent cyclones, may now have greater exposure to these extreme weather events. That, in turn, could lead to “potentially profound consequences to life and property,” the paper states. “Any related changes to positions where storms make landfall will have obvious effects on coastal residents and infrastructure.”

    Moving with the trade winds? [read the rest if interested]

  64. Tom Says:

    Look to America to lead the way out of the climate change trouble!

    http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/house-science-committee-decress-ipcc.html

    The House Science Committee Declares The IPCC Report Is Not Science

    [it's just the usual GOP noise]

    http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/snowden-interview-censored.html

    Snowden interview censored

    I knew perfectly well when I started watching the interview that it had been edited -never mind giving shithead Kerry right of reply

    Read Snowden’s comments on 9/11 that NBC didn’t broadcast

    Only around a quarter of the recent NBC News interview with former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden made it to broadcast, but unaired excerpts now online show that the network neglected to air critical statements about the 9/11 terrorist attacks. [read it]

    http://enenews.com/official-in-fukushima-please-please-help-us-hot-particles-of-melted-fuel-are-inhaled-by-children-everyday-we-are-forced-to-have-it-in-our-bodies-please-let-all-people-in-the-world-kno

    Official in Fukushima: “Please Please HELP US!” — Hot particles of melted fuel are inhaled by children everyday — We are forced to have it in our bodies — “Please let all people in the world know the life we are living”

    [Don't think this is confined to Japan.]

  65. Find a way out Says:

    Reading today’s latest threads, I’m wondering if any of you have entertained the idea -very much in fashion on transhumanist sites (Oxford U people mainly) – of a survival (in darwinian terms ) of something which is distinctly less and less human.

    Is this yet a further extension of the sense of “artificial”?

    The very idea that what will survive the coming holocausts of human and natural origin is nostalgically human is almost a non sequitur. How could the human do better the a resourseful intelligence devised simply to survive ?

    Talking about nanotech, bioengineering, geoengineering, etc. We might ask ourselves just what life forms might survive in various sub/supra-human evolutionary niches where extremes of the kind we know are coming.are operative.

    Caveat.

    Even transhumanists (meta-humans) don’t really have time to prepare their ecological niches for survival : like in the recnt film Elysium, someone has to build the robotscso that Artificial Life can bootstrap itslf on earth. Transhumanist.org

    Maybe even the notions of “you”, “I”, “us”, “them” will go the way of quaint bio-metaphors.

    The colony, throng, mass vibration hive mentality will survive. Ant hills, bee hives, termite mofos, all basic corporate employee behavior patterns.

    This is what our collective unconscious expresses as myth through film, music, writing od non-sci nature teaches us.

    Our dystopic dreaming thru films is preparing for collective-death and metamorphosis in to things progressively non-human.

    Conservative elements don’t want this and grok extinction as a betterline of defense. Better end it all than become silicon, or artificial tissue based form of life !

    Take the RED pill my friend…

  66. Find a way out Says:

    @David Goza

    Muchbof what youbsay resonates…

    Darwinian survival selection process.

    You don’t want it . Buddhist impermanence with a menace.

    NOTHING EVER IS STABLE.
    Mutation is the destabilizing rule over homeostasis.

    Miltonian neoliberalism exploits this niche.

    No stability= no solution= make money on movements of capital flows= heraclitus’s idea : all is change.

    -I’m a Norbert Weiner, negentropy type of guy.

    Try to hang on to the walls of the convex cavities of water flowing down the pipe looking for spaces in which to live in for a while bbefore continuing the thermodynamical journey toward total nothingness.

  67. Robin Datta Says:

    If one believes that NTE or even a bottleneck will curtail life expectancy with attendant suffering from the associated environmental disruptions, then it is unethical to advocate having more humans subjected to it.

    Those who advocate procreation clearly do not and will not understand the import of NTE or even of a bottleneck. Or else they simply don’t give a damn.

  68. Find a way out Says:

    @ Tom
    “Shithead” Kerry . Yeah, don’t you just LOVE the irony that the present creates when reflecting back to all the ways They (media, analysts) made Kerry out to be an Ultra-liberal, wfriend of the People.
    Seig Heil.

    Like calling Jane Fonda a “radical”… She DID say in the way distant youthful past that she’d infiltrate and coopt the “establishment” ! LOL

    Well, marrying a billionaire, doing cosmetics commercials, etc. Is true unde over work :)

    Split your sides irony.

    Changevthe channel irony. Gee, it’s all starting to look like a Giant Parody somewhere…
    Lila ;)

  69. Guy McPherson Says:

    I’ve posted a guest essay by a first-time contributor in this space. It’s here.

  70. Find a way out Says:

    @robin datta

    Gotcha, Robin

    But there’s somrthing beautiful about the paradox of Survival. Yes, I see them everyday.
    Granted, if I had benefitted from hindsight, then THEY would not be in this mess with md.

    In a Darwinian philosophy, we just CANNOT survive, only Persist long enough to mutate.
    Mutations can play a helpful part. But is there a conclusion to the Story ?

    Mutations

    I’ve go 4 lovely mutations : 2 boyz, two grilz.
    But others may have those who want to later imprison mine…
    Game theorybgives us a solution.

    Consider our community, city, society, civilization as a localized extension of our “Self” (greater one that is).

    Mae if we’re just something like neurons, we can all try to create a GREATER VISION…
    A Way Out ?
    ;)

    FEED YOUR HEAD

    You know, I’ve you haven’t sinned, you don’t appreciate as much the FORCE (Heavenly) of the Great Pardon. In fact one may not even conceive the DILEMMA in such a way to help others,
    Bodhisattva – helper of those in the same shit as you ..

    Which may be that step beyond here that many consider a KEY reason that we were born.
    Steps to an Ecology of Mind (Gregory Bateson, 1972).

    @Steve
    Said, the universe exists FOR ME.

    Go look into why the Damai Lama essentially AGREES with you, amongst us

    Hint: the Great Mother meditation.

    Gaia ? Gaia’s mom ? Galaxy’s mom? Universe’s mom ?

    Chinese boxes, Russian dolls, Towers of Turtles all the Way Down …

  71. Henry Says:

    Reverse Engineer — “the collapse of this monetary system will bring to a nearly complete halt the extraction of and burning of fossil fuels.”

    I enjoy reading your broad, conceptual treatments of the systems we are watching, so I look forward to the next parts.

    I think we all carry around in our heads our own mental model of this/these dynamic economy, and part of the fun is trying to peer into someone else’s mind to get an imprint of how they are seeing it.

    My economic modeling has been going on for 48 years, and the picture has changed many times. (In some ways, economic modeling is an exercise in our minds that parallels climate modeling, and you can see just how some people can’t get one or the other, or in most cases, neither.)

    I wonder if the monetary collapse is to be in multiple parts as well, and as you know, the USD part is coming under challenge from the BRICS attempt at a new currency system. We would probably agree that neither is prepared for a post-energy peak future, and even less for a climate chaos future. Generals always fighting the last war, and all that.

    It’s always interesting to learn from a visionary thinker who seems to be missing something larger that you or I can see, and you would like to ask about it, but can’t. We just have to put our own pieces together.

  72. david higham Says:

    Ulvfugl,(may 30,8.47)
    Yes. It is also interesting to contemplate that if the southern hemisphere had an equal area of deciduous trees as the northern hemisphere,the CO2 graph line would not have a”saw tooth” effect,but would be a steadily rising trend line.
    Paul Cherfuka,
    Thank you and good comment.
    Godofreda Aravena,
    Make some attempt to learn.Being alive and exhaling CO2 has zero effect on the climate.

  73. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    To David Higham

    I have done my homework.
    I am talking of the carbon footprint per capita.
    While we are part of this IC, almost whatever you do, generates “abnormal” CO2.
    CO2 mainly coming from burning fossil fuels. Oil is almost behind all the stuff we use daily. Then it is coal, behind our directly used electricity, and the indirect used electricity that what used to produce some of the stuff.
    And then, come the fossil fuels behind our heating.
    Even burning wood, that in the long term is not adding CO2, when it used in excess in the short term, adds to the CO2 levels that today are above 400 PPM.

    Then, not directly related with climate change, but a problem for the future, is the non-natural waste, that will take decades, to be absorbed. Plastics being the biggest portion. Not to forget that behind plastics, there is some oil burnt. And some oil extracted to produce it, as they are mainly oil derivatives.
    If you use electricity coming from nukes, then you are supporting, another potential crisis. And a waste that will take more than 10 000 years to degrade to a safe level.

    This is what I mean when I say that just by living in this IC, each one of us, contributes with a quota to the global CO2 excess behind climate change. And generates waste tha it will become a problem for future generations.

    Just by living in the first world, the average footprint is two, up to twenty times the CO2 the footprint of the people in the second and third world.
    So that is why I say that Pat, just by being alive, doing nothing, just living, is contributing to the problem. If he/she is part of the first world, the contribution is bigger.

    There are two ways to avoid this personal impact:
    -Killing yourself. Something that Pat promotes. But does not practice.
    -Living in a totally primitive state.
    But in either case, the impact of your sacrifice will be almost useless. Unless is put to practice by billions.
    So I guess, in the meantime, the best way to act is to reduce your carbon footprint as much as possible, and at the same time, do something to create awareness among others.
    There are some other actions to be taken, that will not solve the problem either, but may help future generations to avoid a similar scenario in the future again (if somebody survives, unlikely, but not totally and an absolute impossible).
    It was my fault for not being so clear.

  74. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Godofredo Aravena

    Given your analysis and its logic, pat’s position appears to be eminently reasonable to me.

  75. Bailey Says:

    Look up folks, your salvation draws nigh and it comes via the solar panelfication of all roadways in America. Any heretics to this idea will be publicly electrocuted via free power available at your nearest parking lot.

  76. Godofredo Aravena Says:

    ulvgful

    I suppose you are joking.
    But, following the game.
    Yes, if he/she puts to practice what promotes.
    Although, I believe killing yourself is the worst solution.
    Before that, I would do my best efforts, to help to find ways to handle our future. Although is a hard task, considering the complexities involved.
    So even contributing to the problem, I guess putting our brain capacity (and soul) to work, may be a more useful action, that will worth de CO2.
    Maybe Pat feels he/she does not know how to face the problem.
    And just to say “I am different” (ego as always), promotes “killing yourself”, something that does not practice.
    So in the end, the message is a piece of the stage, with nothing behind.
    I would be glad if he/she changes the attitude, because killing yourself is not a solution.
    Although, it would be interesting if that position is defended. Debate is always a good practice.

    Otherwise, is a person of the worst class, is aware, contributing to the problem, giving a message with no substance, and in the mean time just sitting in the train, staring out the window.

    But well, that is our reality. We have to learn to live with it.
    Very few people live the way it promotes.
    Always, there are very few people looking for answers to the unknown, and looking for possible solutions to the problems of the group.

    Making the way, has always been a lonely task.

    You may wonder why I spent time writing posts, that will be mostly useless. But I guess, it is a good exercise, it makes me think, and open doors to new issues, this world is complex, and you never end learning that you know so little about it.

  77. pat Says:

    I have long ago stated my reasons for my actions – if you REALLY need to understand, I guess you have to look at all my comments beginning around 2008.

    @ Godofredo:
    “”There are two ways to avoid this personal impact:
    -Killing yourself. Something that Pat promotes. But does not practice.
    -Living in a totally primitive state.
    But in either case, the impact of your sacrifice will be almost useless. Unless is put to practice by billions.””

    Exactly. However, point two is the same as point one. Let’s all strip naked and wander into the wilderness, see how long we last.

    Just sittin’ on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  78. ulvfugl Says:

    @ Godofredo

    Not a joke at all.

    Imo, you are naive and live in a world of illusions.

    (Your analysis of what happens in Venezuela tells me that you are clueless about politics and Empire, for example.)

    But I don’t really care about that, there are zillions like you, and you will suffer enough as your illusions crumble.

    pat, by contrast, has seen through the illusions, and seen the bleak wretched vision that’s revealed.

    With no power to change this appalling situation, what makes sense ?

    I understand pat’s nihilism.

    I am fortunate, I exist in a very beautiful place, in a fairly primitive state, and it sustains me, I have a rich and fulfilling experience, every day. Trees, birds, animals, stimulating ideas and no people. This is sufficient to keep me going from one day to the next.

  79. Reverse Engineer Says:

    “Just sittin’ on this runaway train, staring out the window.”-Pat

    Wouldn’t dropping your seat on the Tracks be better placement?

    RE


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