Down for the count?

From my email in-box:
“Muhammad Ali used to jab and jab and destroy his opponents before the final blow. The outcome of most fights was never in question even if the opponent was standing.”

“Peak Oil, economic collapse and related factors have doomed our civilization. It stands no chance of survival much longer. Global Climate Change is not necessary for failure of our civilization, but it is here and will be the final blow and perhaps the factor that determines whether any humans will ultimately survive. Global Climate Change will change the equation from one of civilizational survival, which is not possible, to species survival. The actions taken by mankind in the short term can no longer mitigate the impacts of climate change, but they could mitigate or prevent the worst possible impacts and thus give our species a chance to survive. And establishment of a carbon market as per Al Gore and Obama are not going to help one whit.”
“The chances are greater than 50/50 in my view that nothing effective will be done about global climate change and we will begin to see the cascading and synergistic impacts of climate change with economic failure very soon.”
My anonymous correspondent has plenty of thoughtful company. Scientists are predicting massive die-off of the hairless ape, and soon, if we don’t take immediate action (e.g., here and here). Of course we will not willingly take effective action. That would force us to abandon the “ideal” of economic growth (that is, of mass murder). But, much as I hate to quibble, I’m a lot more optimistic than my anonymous correspondent.
After all, even the mainstream media have realized that low oil prices are behind us. The Saudis are going so far as to sound the alarm about a “catastrophic” energy crunch. As I’ve been saying and writing for years, peak oil is the planet’s salvation, and ours, too. It will generate the massive die-off needed to save our species. Such is the cost of overshoot for any species, even one as clever as ours.
The bill has come due. The price we pay for saving the planet — which, in this case, means our own species, along with a plethora of others — is unpalatable in the extreme. Social unrest. Resource wars. Massive human die-off.
But enough about that. Back to the television. Kulture calls.
Better days lie ahead.

Comments 67

  • I’m fully on board the uber-doomer bandwagon, but I have a nagging fear that somehow this supremely clever race of hairless apes will find a way to continue their rapacious ways until we have paved and processed the entire planet and created some totally artificial techno-world for ourselves (or more likely, for our post-human replacements). Have you considered taking a more active role in the destruction of industrial civilization, as anarcho-primitivists like Ted Kaczynski and Derrick Jenson have suggested, just in case the doomer prophecies don’t pan out as expected? Fleeing to mud huts and remote farms to await the apocalypse seems rather cowardly and unheroic, like a doomer version of “white flight”. Isn’t the time ripe for an Anti-Civilization Doomer Jihad to attempt to hasten the cascading global industrial collapse? I have a lot of ideas along these lines, and I’d be curious to know how much interest there is out there in such a thing. I can easily imagine apocalyptic “terrorism” by some new radical Green version of Al Qaeda/Aum Shinrikyo appearing on the scene in the Western world as the mythology of progress unravels. After all, Westerners created the planet- and culture-destroying monstrosity of global techno-indusrial civilization, so it seems to me they have a moral obligation to destroy it if they can. Who among us will be the heroes and slay this beast while it is gravely wounded?

  • Teddy K’s proclaimed innocence may have been truthful considering that he was an MK-ULTRA Guinea Pig. The CIA loves to hold onto their acquaintances (and even their own) for use as possible patsies in the future. In this case there is also the distinct possibility he was “activated” at some point and really does not have knowledge of these actions. I doubt that if Ted were the Uni bomber intentionally he would still be maintaining his innocence as the Uni bomber persona seemed very proud of his actions.

  • Well, relatively speaking, a hopeful post. The sad thing, among many, about the adverse effects of global warming now undoubtably on the way is that those most historically responsible are likely to suffer the least. Bangladesh and the Maldives sink beneath the waves; meanwhile wheat farmers plow up northern Canada and oil wells are sunk at the North Pole. Which will serve as further evidence, as if any were needed, that there is no God.
    Although if you’d read the article about the Saudis a little more carefully, you’d note that he is arguing against alternative energy sources, and calling for more investment in oil … to prop up high oil prices. Naturally, he sez, low oil prices are bad for the world, at least the part of the world he cares about.
    Ah, snake-oil salesman abound. As in the tinfoil hatters who commented above me. Sean Taylor, a cursory look around your blogs seems to indicate that you are new to the doomer game. But take a look at your future: Chris, below you, convinced that the Unabomber was a CIA moll. My (entirely unsolicited) advice: stop now, while you’re ahead of the game. Urban fantasies about some anti-civilization movement will get you no farther than Mad Max movies and your keyboard.

  • And, Court, someone like me slapping them upside the noggin with the action end of an AR15 for their stupid indescretion. You two want to bring it all down by injuring innocents? Good thinking, start with your own houses, or more probably your parent’s house in which you inhabit the basement and scream for meatloaf.

  • Agrarian revolution, like a team of mavericks!

  • Curiouser and curiouser….
    If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?…
    Ah, Mr. Dodgson, pedophile you may have been, but we will always love your Alice.

  • Has anyone seen Frank? I’m getting worried

  • mr. Roboto:
    I’m fine thank you.Just celebrated my 77th birthday on Friday the 13th.I’m interested in many differnt things,and just don’t have the energy any more to keep up with the rest of you.I teach and play tournament chess. Am into astronomy,economics,politics,architecture,DXing.I’m in relatively good health,but getting to know the local hospitals as I take my old friends into them.Sun City is a retirement community–can’t stand the concept.After the sun sinks below the yard arm I’m known to savor a drop or two (practical marine discipline).
    I appreciate your thoughts.

  • Frank: I’m guessing you’ll be headed over to ASU for the Origins Symposium?

  • Charlene:
    I wish I could get to the Origins Symposium,but I just cannot do it.I don’t have the time,energy or strength.The long drive to Tempe is daunting enough for me.
    About two hours after sunset you can see the asterism Hyades in the constellation Taurus in the north-west sky.It is V shaped highligted by the bright red star Aldeberan,which represents one of the bull’s eyes.These are the stars used to prove Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity during a total eclipse of the sun in 1919.Get more info on line if interested.

  • Sean Taylor and Chris, thanks for your first-time posts. I’m in complete agreement with you, Sean: At each of my many speaking venues, I spread the good news about the collapse of civilization and also give details about how we can hasten it along. Opportunities include the legal (e.g., turning on all the lights in public buildings, using electric doors instead of manual ones at the big-box stores, traveling as much as financially possible, recycling paper and cardboard), the illegal but unenforced (e.g., exceeding the speed limit), and illegal but enforced if caught (e.g., dismantling cell-phone towers, hacking to bring down the electric grid, disrupting energy supplies). Any number can play. I routinely engage in all but the third category.
    Turboguy, who are these “innocents” to whom you refer? Surely not Americans or other civilized humans, who are responsible, through our daily actions, for the unrelenting suffering and eventual murder of millions of human and non-human animals. Western culture is killing the planet. It’s time we put a stop to it.

  • Well, I had said I would give some comments on my first-hand experience of Dimtry Orlov’s SALT (Seminars for Long Term Thinking) talk for the Long Now Foundation in San Francisco last month. And now, finally caught up temporarily on work and life, I have a moment to do so.
    Orlov’s talk can be read here:
    Since he read it, that transcript is accurate down to the one-liners. Fortunately, he has a dead-pan style of humor that works well when read off the page. I highly recommend reading it; it’s entertaining as well as being informative. The differences came in the Q/A and conversation afterward, so I will stick to those.
    Not quotes:
    Q. Who is best prepared for social collapse?
    A. The rural poor. Poor people are used to it; being poor takes practice. And rural folks probably already have ongoing sources of food.
    This was a follow-up to his comments about one’s personal security being well served by having “a large number of well armed, mentally unstable friends, some of whom still wear military and police uniforms, for old time’s sake.”:
    Q. What kind of guns and ammo do you recommend?
    A. SKS, AK-47 – they use the same ammo – and shotguns.
    It will be important to know your neighbors and be on friendly terms with them.
    Stewart Brand: Sounds like an interesting community revival event.
    Orlov lives on a sailboat in a marina on the east coast. And keeps his cash “under the mattress.”
    Wrt currency, the USSR’s was meaningless. It was used primarily as token gifts for newlyweds and grads. So the idea of community or alternative currencies is not one Orlov knows about. Barter was commonly practices before the collapse. That will be one of the difficulties we have to deal with here that they did not there — the collapse of another mental paradigm, and the “scorekeeping” aspects of it.
    FUSA – Former USA.

  • I’m glad you asked me to elaborate Guy!
    I mean if you decide to harm people that are uninvolved. Lemme quote this [quote]…as anarcho-primitivists like Ted Kaczynski… [/quote] Theodore Kaczynski sent bombs wrapped in nails to people, airlines, and universities and threatened to continue sending bombs until the Washington Post and the NY Times published his manifesto. The people that ended up opening them happen to be innocents. He is little more than a terrorist, a coward, and a murderer. I could give two squirts of monkey piss what his position of lament that his wilderness was being destroyed when he starts killing people that have nothing to do with his fight.
    What you have done here, Guy, is totally excuse, and in some ways, sanction murder. That is inexcusable, utterly and totally.
    I don’t personally know you, but if I found out that someone mailed a bomb to you wrapped in nails because they’ve got issues with your “Bring It All Down” belief, I would extremely angry. Worse is if they sent that to you (As Kaczynski did to the UofI and Northwestern) because they were angry at the skyrocketing cost of food. A problem for which you are not at all at fault unless you’ve gone on a surprise eating binge.
    If you want to turn on all the lights, jackrabbit your car everywhere you go, using the electric doors, or even turning your heat to 90 I’d be more than happy to defend your right to do so! If through your half thought out plan of bringing Anarchy you hurt or kill someone purposely, you sir are wrong and fully deserving of me getting to whallop you upside the head with a heavy piece of metal. You screw up an electrical grid and because of your actions people freeze to death, you’ve hurt and killed innocents. You disrupt energy supplies… God only knows how you’d go about this… by… um… derailing a train loaded with gas/diesel etc you’ve injured or killed innocents. You wreck a cell phone tower (Which I actually thought funny considering your new position as cells use far more power than land lines) preventing someone from calling 911 during an emergency, you’ve injured or killed innocents.
    For all intents and purposes you’ve also excused the Muslim extremists that hijacked three planes and crashed two of them into New York skyscrapers. The people they killed were the same Americans you’re now advocating the murder of. In their eyes all Americans are guilty of crimes against Allah and Shariyah law, none were innocent, all were sentenced to death. They were no more innocent in their eyes as the same Americans you’re talking about now. Hey man, they died for the cause, right?
    You want to make people uncomfortable, get in their faces. Move them from their little world for a little while. You hurt or kill someone through either direct or indirect action you sir are wrong, a coward, a criminal, and a murderer if you went too far and killed someone. If I caught you pulling some of the stunts you’ve outlined in category three, you bet I’d crack you one good across your grill. Make you think long and hard about continuing your quest while you got some quality dental work. You stick with category one and two and I totally support you. It’s your prorogative. (Though I may ticket you if you’re stupid about when and where you speed.)

  • I understand your frustrations, but tacitly approving the harm of people “for the sake of the world” is three steps too far into the realm of the completely/totally incorrect.
    Combating one evil by becoming another doesn’t serve anyone–least of all your self/soul/sanity. “Desperate times require desperate measures…” is not a valid excuse for harming people whose chief sin was arriving at the wrong place at the wrong time, brainwashed by a corrupt society.

  • First of all, I have never advocated injuring, much less killing, humans. But, as nearly as I can determine, there are two reasons to keep the current game going: (1) failure to recognize we’re well into ecological overshoot, and (2) failure to recognize that empires oppress, enslave, and kill cultures, people, and species.
    I suspect many proponents of American empire supported the bombing of Afghanistan and the invasion and subsequent occupation of Irag. The former is equivalent to carpet-bombing Chicago because the mafia holds poker games in that city; the latter is all about oil, the lifeblood of civilization.
    Please study the premises here, and argue against any of them: … then read the entire, 900-page book and try doing the same. If you cannot do so, join the club and help me bring it all down. Together, we can reduce the level of oppression, suffering, and murder.

  • Dr. Guy, I sincerely hope you’re feigning ignorance in your previous post. Even if you don’t advocate acts of terrorism against humans, you are advocating creating conditions that will accelerate a human die-off. That IS advocating violence against humans.
    That’s not to say that there isn’t widespread murder, oppression, etc. in the empire. That’s not to say that empire should continue. But when you advocate for the destruction of empire, you are advocating violence, death, and suffering for many (most?) of its occupants.

  • Guy, are you totally sure you didn’t?.
    Sean Taylor said: “Have you considered taking a more active role in the destruction of industrial civilization, as anarcho-primitivists like Ted Kaczynski and Derrick Jenson have suggested, just in case the doomer prophecies don’t pan out as expected?”
    “Isn’t the time ripe for an Anti-Civilization Doomer Jihad to attempt to hasten the cascading global industrial collapse? I have a lot of ideas along these lines, and I’d be curious to know how much interest there is out there in such a thing. I can easily imagine apocalyptic “terrorism” by some new radical Green version of Al Qaeda/Aum Shinrikyo”
    What is the definition of taking a more active role in the destruction of industrial civilization, as anarcho-primitivists like Ted Kaczynski has suggested?” What is the definition of terrorism? It’s the acting or threat of violence intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.
    In your first post in this thread you said you were in complete agreement with Sean. If you’re in agreement with his calling for terrorism to atain your goal, which he was, then you too are. That is if not outright advocacy, forgiving or sanctioning. I then said that those two can do whatever they want, but if they hurt innocents I, or someone just like me, is going to stick a firearm in their face and quite probably bop them on the head with the barrel.
    Then you gave details on how people can hasten us toward collapse, including category three, which I’ve detailed how you’d be hurting civilians, interchangeable with innocents, for you in my previous post.
    You want people to take an active role in bringing it all down, fine, do something that’s not going to hurt or kill someone. (Category 1 and 2) Imagine if someone hurt or killed your family because they believed that doing anything to bring about their goal was okay. If you or anyone, through some stupid stunt, hurt or killed one of my family members because you thought it might help you get your goal achieved, you might as well not run and hide, you’d only be tired when I found you. And I would find you, and when I did, it wouldn’t be pretty. I’m not alone in this, so DON’T HURT INNOCENTS AND CIVILIANS IF YOU SIMPLY MUST PUSH AS HARD AS YOU CAN TO BRING ABOUT YOUR GOALS!!!
    In your last post you want to reduce the level of oppression and murder… by committing oppression and murder. Terrorism *IS* oppression and murder.

  • I’m responding to the apparent agreement with the poster who seemed to be raising the image of Ted Kaczynski as something worthy of imitation.
    I would never disagree that the future needs to be radically different from the past. But, in agreeing, I don’t seek to prescribe anarchy for our current ills. As Turboguy rightly points out: the descent into anarchy would see many endangered species eaten along with untold destruction, human and environmental suffering.
    Not everyone in America wanted Iraq bombed. I protested with friends before the war in 2002 and 2003. Many people did, although the mainstream news blocked it out. I saw the crowds and the outrage. It may not have done any good, or been an opinion in vogue at the time, but there were voices out there.
    The problem currently facing the world came about as a result, a direct result, of a lack of compassion and awareness. Advocating anarchy on a massive scale replaces one form of tyranny with another.
    Or at least, that’s the way it seems to me.
    People who lack compassion and want to bring a violent end to a flawed system run the risk of becoming the same monster they’re fighting against…or else opening Pandora’s Box.
    Without rejecting Derrick Jensen’s premises, solutions are:
    1. Accept that all of humanity and nature are on the same team–parts of a whole system, not adversaries. We have to stop viewing fellow humans and the planet we live on as “the other” and embrace these elements as part of ourselves.
    2. A shift to valuing humility and self-sacrifice over power and possessions.
    The challenge facing humanity is to use its heart and head to do something worth doing–rather than trying to fight what is. You’ve said the existence of Buddhist monks makes a positive statement about humanity.
    This isn’t to say we will pass the challenge. I guess what I’m getting at is: actions borrowed from the pages of history’s bloody revolutions past are more of the same problem rather than part of the solution.
    Kind of like the lyrics from the Beatles “Revolution”…might seem a cliche response, but it did kind of hit the nail on the head.
    I know I have my days of saying “to hell with it all, damn them all”…I’ve got issues with major depression. Saying “to hell with it all” comes on days filled with weaknesses…
    Knowing all people are ultimately people, I’d say “to hell with it” is probably a weak moment most people experience at some point or another. Something tells me, the sort of person who can appreciate the poetry and humanity of incarcerated fellow humans is far stronger than that type of sentiment.
    The system needs dismantled, but I worry about the mind who would want to dismantle it as a terrorist would.

  • You say you want a revolution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change the world
    You tell me that it’s evolution
    Well, you know
    We all want to change the world
    But when you talk about destruction
    Don’t you know that you can count me out
    You say you got a real solution
    Well, you know
    We’d all love to see the plan
    You ask me for a contribution
    Well, you know
    We’re doing what we can
    But when you want money
    for people with minds that hate
    All I can tell is brother you have to wait
    The UniBomber was a murderous sociopathic beast…he would be a murderous sociopathic beast with or without a cause. Creatures of his sort do what they do for reasons of their own; certainly not for the betterment of the world.

  • I think you don’t understand the difference between anarchy (which comes in various forms, all of which represent governance) and chaos. Anarchy is a wonderful solution. Chaos, I fear, is what we’ll get.
    If you think promoting empire is not promoting a culture of death, you don’t understand the first thing about empire. American empire is as “great” as it gets, which means it’s as bad (i.e., deadly) as it gets. Just because you can’t see the death and suffering does not mean it does not exist. Out of sight, out of mind … but only for those of you who stick your heads in the sand, trying to keep the current game going by killing other humans (i.e., non-Americans), cultures, and species.
    Please, read the book: Endgame. Then we can have an informed conversation instead of ideologically informed “debate.”

  • I totally understand the difference, however, you’re sympathetic to bringing the “Empire” down by any means necessary, be it destruction or murder. This is where our disagreement we’re debating on lies. Regardless of whether I read that book or not (And I am going to look for it) I now and always will believe that pushing for my goals through any means necessary is wrong.
    If you do what has been advocated in this thread you are simply a terrorist. It’s like the I.R.A. (Irish Republican Army) They would have had all kinds of support for their cause of kicking the English off their land, but in their stupidity started blowing up civilian airliners loaded with, guess what, innocents. In one fell swoop of stupidity they destroyed their popular support and became the monsters they said they were against.
    In Iraq the Al Qaeda jackassholes are killing civilians more often than not. At first they had supporters, but they kept it up until all they were killing is women and children. Now the badguys can’t even show their faces for fear that one of their former victims would shoot it off for them.
    Trust me, not only is killing civilians/innocents morally wrong, but would destroy any support they might have for you.
    And dismissing any debate about an obviously flawed position you’re sympathetic about because we haven’t read a book is intellectual fascism. If by reading that book I too could justify the killing of innocents to bring an end to the “American Empire” you lament yet are supported by, maybe I don’t want to read it after all…
    Now what are the ramifications if you did get your way and America ceased to exist tomorrow? You think China, who is by *FAR* the worst polluter and Earth rapist the world has ever known would magically stop what they’re up to right now? Do you think that the Muslims and Jews in the Middle East would hold hands and start singing koom-bai-ya? Chances are the Muslims would attack Israel inside of a week and Israel would glass the whole Middle East.

  • “What is the definition of terrorism? It’s the acting or threat of violence intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.”
    Explain, then, how the promotion of industrial culture (which I’m equating with civilization) is not terrorism. Afghanistan comes to mind, as does Iraq. And, originally, North America. Between them lie more than 200 conflicts in which the U.S. is the aggressor, all driven by our desire to obtain resources to maintain our non-negotiable way of life, all of which kill civilians.
    And, again I ask, what do you mean by “innocents”? American consumers are not ignorant, and they are not innocent. Are they following the lead of the politicians they elect? Of course. That doesn’t absolve them of responsibility.
    Every cell phone causes slavery, oppression, death. That’s what col-tan does. Ditto for every act.
    Living takes life. But it can be thoughtful. The American version is not thoughtful. It’s murderous.

  • Why act in a negative fashion when entropy is pulling down the system we’ve known, anyway?
    It makes more sense to me, to act positively, supporting the restructuring of community, co-ops, community agriculture, educational programs, etc. All of these acts change the world and denounce what has been very aptly termed the culture of death.
    I fail to see how people such as the UniBomber are “okay” because of their apparent disdain for the “Empire”?
    There are many nonviolent ways to go about changing the world. I simply don’t understand how pushing more wrong into the world (through deliberate acts of terrorism) will make it right? I don’t think it is advocating ignorance to advocate nonviolent resistence to ideas you disagree with??
    I understand anarchism has many faces, but it still isn’t an “ism” I’m willing to adopt. I’m sorry. I can’t go that far.

  • Three of my favorite anarchists: Lao Tzu, Thomas Jefferson, Edward Abbey.
    Who are your favorite imperialists?

  • Wow Guy, when did you join Al Qaeda?
    “And, again I ask, what do you mean by “innocents”? American consumers are not ignorant, and they are not innocent. Are they following the lead of the politicians they elect? Of course. That doesn’t absolve them of responsibility.”
    You could have told me these words fell from the lips of Osama Bin Laden and it wouldn’t have surprised me one bit. Does this not make you just as guilty as the rest? You are sitting there in front of your computer, fully supported by the infrastructure you lament… Guilty as sin! You have quite substantially benefitted from the life you’ve gotten living here, considerably more than quite a few that I know.
    It seems that we’re right back to you advocating any means necessary to bring about your goals again, be it miscreant, honorable, or even terrorist in nature. Have you’ve totally failed to realize that you’ll get your wish and then some and all you’ve got to do is sit back in your easy chair and eat grapes?
    Since you’ve totally left the realm of reality on this one, I’ll close this “Debate” between you and I by simply saying that if you do something stupid, Guy, or if someone else does something stupid to innocent people (And you know exactly what I’m talking about regarding innocents whether you’ll admit it or not) after being prodded by you, you are not only guilty morally or directly, but a coward.
    I’m with you on Iraq, but Afghanistan? The only natural resource they’ve got there is dirt, camels, and Islam. None of which the US needs.

  • No, Turboguy, I do not know who you mean by “innocents.” Please enlighten me.
    And yes, I’m living a life of luxury. I’ll gladly trade it all in to save other species and cultures. Tell me imperialism ends as a result of my death, and I’ll go voluntarily and quickly to my death. Until then, I’ll keep pushing to save those other species and cultures at the expense of empire.

  • I’m not entirely familiar with the other two, but I think Thomas Jefferson’s appearance on the list of famous anarchists is debatable. In the case of Jefferson, I would concede leanings towards anarchism–in thought–but I’m inclined to think he wasn’t advocating its practice on a large scale.
    My own thoughts, technically, lean toward certain elements of anarchism, but that doesn’t mean I’m an anarchist.
    Also, just because someone fails to advocate anarchy does not mean that same person condones imperialism.
    Again, while entropy pulls the whole mess in on itself, I think it is far more productive to look for positive changes on an individual and local scale. Volunteering, reaching out to neighbors, becoming an active activist within your local sphere of influence…all of these things make far more sense than flogging a dead, or at least dying horse.

  • Guy and crew —
    I don’t have time or inclination to follow the day-to-day deliberations of this forum, but I think all should feel the flames coming forth from the pen of a very impressive woman regarding Alan Greenspan and the engineered housing bubble and economic collapse at the following link:
    read the final paragraph first if you are short on time…
    Stan Moore

  • Since you’re advocating getting what you want at any cost, including the killing of other humans, let me ask you a question:
    Have you ever killed someone? I don’t mean end around, I used soap made in a chinese sweatshop and they died from overwork for my soap, I mean really ended a life? I have, in Iraq. Let me tell you, it is no fun. At first it’s really not all that bad, you’re too busy trying not to get shot and stopping them from shooting at you. About a day or so afterward it starts. It eats at you for months afterwards. Haunts your dreams for years. You start to think, “That could just have easily been me…” You think about what it must have been like, catching 62 grain across the upper chest. Did it hurt? What did he think about just before he died? Does anyone miss him?
    You are sitting there talking about how great it would be if people started actually killing people, KILLING HUMAN BEINGS, to bring about your vision of societal change. And not some guy firing an AK47 at you, oh no my friend, what I went through softens the psychological blow quite a lot, you’re talking about killing unarmed, uninvolved, innocent civilians. (again you’re playing stupid games and know exactly what I’m talking about) I call murder cowardice on a scale not known since a bunch of guys crashed a couple planes full of innocent civilians into skyscrapers full of other innocent civilians.
    Now you want to play symantics games with the word “innocent” because you have this weird sense of guilt for what others do in wrecking our ecosystem and believe that since everyone’s at fault you’re excused in doing whatever whacked out shit you think up to change the way they live their lives.
    Again you want to bring the “Empire” down, more power to you, but if you are sitting there justifying murder, you are a coward. Especially when you’re going to get your wish regardless of whether you pull some crap or not.

  • Well, this is certainly getting boring. Turboguy, you refuse to believe what I write, including my repeated denial for calls to kill humans, yet you’re in full-on attack mode. Have you actually read my posts and comments? Have you read the premises underlying Endgame yet? Do you disagree with any of them? Can you define “innocent” for me, particularly with respect to proponents of empire?
    And no, I have not directly killed any humans. I leave that to those who “protect” Americans from “guilty” Afghans, Iraqis, and — to an overwhelming extent — other people of color.

  • Again Dr. Guy, your denial of calling for the killing of humans is a total bunch of crap. You call for the killing of humans with almost every post you make here.

  • “Again Dr. Guy, your denial of calling for the killing of humans is a total bunch of crap. You call for the killing of humans with almost every post you make here.”
    Back it up: Show me where, please.

  • I don’t think it is fair to say Guy has directly stated an interest in killing people.
    Talking about the problems of the full-to-bursting level of the current human population and the resource nightmare it represents does not equate to that. Saying there is the potential to hit a major brick wall from overconsumption and over population which would, in turn, mean human suffering/die off is not the same as advocating murder.
    Having a neomalthusian outlook doesn’t make you a murderous misanthrope; it is simply a way of viewing the problem of exponential population growth in a world of finite resources.
    The problem here is not an explicit call to “Kill the humans” it is the trouble of agreeing with people who throw around the name Ted Kaczynski and words like “terrorism” in a rather blithe and indiscriminate way.

  • Ecological overshoot is a direct consequence of not appreciating our complex inter-relationships as people, or even species.
    Innocence is being used here in a place outside of a legal domain.
    Nature does not hold hearings or trials. She is not blind.
    From Wikipedia:
    People who lack the mental capacity to understand the nature of their acts may be regarded as innocent regardless of their behavior. From this meaning comes the term innocent to refer to a child under the age of reason, or a person, of any age, who is severely mentally disabled.

  • I received a private communication which led me to revisit the blog yesterday, and I will throw in my point of view. Too many participants are thinking with their testicles and maybe their anuses rather than their cerebra.
    Many, many people, including Arabs and Muslims, celebrated the hanging of Saddam Hussein, but they did not kill him directly or indirectly. Many, many people, including Arabs, Muslims, and even Christians, were totally shocked at the fall of the Twin Towers in New York, but celebrated the event in the context of karma, or what academic Chalmers Johnson would call “blowback”, or which agitator Ward Churchill would call “the chickens coming home to roost.”
    Bush and Cheney DID know in advance about the Twin Towers and the celebrated the event secretly because it gave them cover to fight a “War on Terror” and sic the Turboguys of the country after innocent Iraqis who NEVER fought or even contemplated attacking Americans until the Americans started bombing and their occupying their homeland. This is undeniable in view of the policy statements springing from the Project for the New American Century. And guess what — Barack Obama is still enacting that program and continues the fight for Empire and its resource wars and its subjugation of innocent peoples in order to boost the American economy and the phantom wealth-driven lifestyle.
    Those who want to deny reality can certainly do so, but they cannot change reality.
    This civilization is like the Titanic. It is deemed “too big to sink” and has been determined to be unsinkable. But it IS irreversibly sinking and starting to sink fast and many lives will be lost. Most will be innocent lives, but some will include the designers and operators of the ship. The ocean will sink the ship and have no regrets. Whether anyone is happy about the chain of events is personal and essentially irrelevant to the realy involved.

  • While I will agree that screaming curses in the face of what simply “is” or “will be” doesn’t make much rational sense; I still believe we have a moral obligation to act peacefully.
    That is to say, terrorists and murderers are still manifestly wrong. Actions that destroy and kill for destruction/killing’s own sake will always be wrong–it doesn’t really matter how satisfying the crunch may sound to weary or angry minds.
    Reality is undeniable and a force well beyond our control, but so long as we have a choice, we should continue to elect NOT to become monsters. Encouraging the acts of evil men, whether they wear suits, semi-automatic rifles, or hide in the woods filling packages with bombs, is simply not acceptable. And it doesn’t advance anything positive in the world.

  • “I spread the good news about the collapse of civilization and also give details about how we can hasten it along. Opportunities include […] illegal but enforced if caught (e.g., dismantling cell-phone towers, hacking to bring down the electric grid, disrupting energy supplies). Any number can play.”
    “…including my repeated denial for calls to kill humans”
    Do you really need me to go through this again?
    If someone dismantles a cell phone tower that people rely on, as more and more people are forgoing a land line, and someone dies because they couldn’t dial 911 to get some form of emergency response, you through your actions are party to murder. That’s the same as someone cutting the phone line to a house they’re about to pull a hot burglary on so the victim inside can’t call police. Maybe a getaway driver! He didn’t actually pull the trigger, but he was most definitely an accomplice.
    If you hack into a power grid, bringing it down so people are without power any number of unbelievably bad things can happen. Anywhere from people being stuck in an elevator for hours to days, to people’s heat/air conditioning/life support shutting down and them freezing/smother/expire, to civil unrest, to water treatment facilities failing to provide clean water. The person who brought it down is responsible for people dying. That is murder.
    “Any number can play”
    Prodding people to vandalize or victimize someone else to get your way is quite a lot like an eight year old manipulating his four year old brother into throwing a temper tantrum because they didn’t get the lucky charms in the cereal aisle.
    I’m not in attack mode; I’m simply using your words against you. Sean talked about using terrorism, up to and including tactics utilized by Kaczynski (Murder), to bring about the societal change he desired and you were in “complete” agreement with him. Then you outlined ways for people to bring about your brand of societal change, including vandalism against electric, cell, and energy utilities, while seemingly having no issue with taking whatever means necessary to achieve those goals against uninvolved civilians. Are you going to use “Unavoidable Collateral Civilian Deaths” next?
    You’re not overtly advocating murder, that is true, but through the actions you are advocating people will die all because you had to have your birthday cake four days early. When innocent civilians die through your actions you are a murderer. Was Hitler a murderer? Definitely! Did he ever actually pull the trigger on someone in a Concentration Camp? Probably not. Same rule applies.
    Sit back and have a Coke man! Your special day is coming regardless of what acts you’re advocating.
    As I once heard in a movie: “Patience Grasshopper…”

  • Turboguy the mad genius of logic strikes again. Mr. Roboto and you must be reading another blog or you both seriously lack the ability to comprehend simple sentence patterns. I would love to see where Guy is calling for the killing of humans. Predicting and calling are two different worlds my boys. I predict you both will respond with some babble that in no way reflects a response and I am now calling for you both to go and do a little research before you make any more inept statements.

  • Privileged, you seem to have a well-reasoned and progressive perspective on other issues (i.e., race and privilege). I’m disappointed that you don’t have moral issues with advocating (i.e., calling for) actions that will lead to violence and death for millions of humans.

  • What specific actions are speaking about Roboto? You continue to make claims w/out providing evidence.

  • I’m assuming you may be addressing the line in which the good Dr. asks for our help to bring it all down? Do you think he is calling for us to become part of Project Mayhem? Mcpherson doen’t seem like the Fight Club type. Besides if you read on I think it becomes clear that we have a choice to make about which lifestyle we want to participate in. Both unfortunately cost lives but only one will save species.

  • Roboto, it’s not his fault. He hasn’t even got basic reading comprehension skills and is totally socially inept. He must have totally missed the part where Guy called for people do perform potentially dangerous acts of vandalization. Maybe “Hooked on Phonics” didn’t work for him?
    He’s also a troll. It was fun playing with the troll for a few days, but now I just ignore anything he has to say. He’s kinda like a twelve year old that runs his mouth all the time about how bad everything is.
    Have fun with him if you want, or ignore him.

  • Nice! I see we’re back to name calling. This really has nothing to do w/ how bad everything is in the world. It has everything to do w/ providing solutions to real problems/issues. When people call you out on your oppressive nature you get angry. Being offended because you’re offensive is an interesting concept and or strategy. Many people who belong to the dominant group or the people in power react this way.
    I would like to address the real problem we face? The goal is to maintain and preserve whiteness. Our energy, consumption, greed, and lack of respect for all species are a direct result of whiteness. Preserving whiteness is our way of life. We just call it capitalism, industrialism and a multitude of other names.
    The solution is simple to see but difficult to act upon. Leave the white club and join the rest of the planet. “Treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity.”- N.I.

  • Name calling? I suppose I called you a Troll, but it’s not like it’s not a well deserved title for the way you act.
    I haven’t gotten angry at you yet, you and your silly rantings really do mean extremely little to me. When I figured out how much of a fringe weirdo you are I pretty much discounted anything you had to say and decided to simply have fun at your expense. Ignoring you and reading your silly attempts to garner a response was all kinds of hilarious! Seriously though, I’m actually glad you troll around like an idiot; your wackjob positions are an awesome contrast between reality and whatever world it is that you inhabit. Your self loathing and guilt are truly awesome to behold.
    Anyway, you keep doing whatever it is you do and I’ll keep laughing at’cha. I’d give you a thumbs up and make that little click sound but, well, it’s not possible through text. Happy posting!

  • Yeah the status quo is really working out. What you call fringe I call a paradigm shift which is the whole point of this blog Turbs. You’re the guy who keeps claiming to ignore me and yet a dozen or so posts later here you are ranting about the same stupid entitlement BS you always do. I get it…ooops, got me again!
    Step outside of straight white male America sometime and look around. You’ll find your superiority complex is just that…really complex and irrational. Please offer us something other than guns, entitlement, oppression, and the feeling that I’m trying to place guilt upon whitey. We don’t have time for guilt so let it go man.

  • Um… Troll, read the posts genius, you’re the only one talking about entitlement. You, not me. Remember the whole “Reading Comprehension” deal? Try “Hooked on Phonics” it might do you some good.
    You’re not trying to place guilt on whitey, it’s your own self loathing because you’re quite honestly too much of a coward to actually get off rear and out of your comfy chair in front of your computer to do anything about it. This is quite enlightening. Thanks for the insight into the oddball wacknuts like you.
    That’s right, you sir are an utter coward. And as for superior, I don’t feel superior to anyone save one: you. The one person on this planet that thinks they’re the champion for the downtrodden, yet they’re doing more trodding on people than anyone around.
    Thanks for the laughs!

  • You spew entitlement w/ your dismissal of everything or anything that might challenge the brainwashed police/military mind set you so wonderfully bought into. I don’t pretend to be any sort of champion just a guy who keeps dip shits w/in his own club(white boys) in check. Most people would consider you to be an oddball wacknut for contributing to this blog but to your credit that hasn’t stopped you…or are you in the closet about that?
    Just give me some proof or reasoning about why my thoughts are so off course. All you do is criticize but never supply any validity/data to back it up. Constantly dismissing my points as wacko is easy and typical from our little boys club. I’ll state it again. Either you believe that people of color just can’t figure it out and succeed in this society or the society is set up for certain people to fail. No matter what you believe I would simply ask what you’re doing about it. I’m involved in ways that would probably turn your stomach because they flow against everything you hold near and dear. What are you protecting besides the continuation of a white supremacist state? I don’t mean guys in sheets dildo I mean guys in power. Or did racism end in early November?
    All of this mess leads back to the fact that the social construct of whiteness has led us to believe that it’s our duty to share our utopia w/ the rest of the planet. Many people on this planet don’t have the privilege to plan an escape route from the crumbling mess whiteness has created. So what do say you and I become traitors to whiteness together and show people that privilege has a deadly cost to all people including those in the ivory tower. Hand in hand and all the time enjoying some male physical intimacy (which men desperately need to work on) you and I will roam the US of A and lead by example so all our white brothers and sisters can see the benefits that the oneness of humanity offers to those who embrace it. Or you can go on making judgments and pretending not to be pissed off. C’mon Turboguy!: join me.

  • Wow! Turbo, you SOUND mad. Actually, you sound like you’re literally mad – in the Poe sense.
    I may be wrong, but I gather from your posts that you believe the whole “This-is-the-greatest-country-on-the-planet” story. Like I said, I may be wrong. Tell me if I am.
    What I think “Privileged” is saying is that the “great country” is the direct result of white supremacy in action. And this isn’t just history. In terms of post Civil War foreign policy, this has carried through right up to the present.
    Our wealth. Our way of life. Our very existence is predicated upon mass murder at worst or, at the very least, mass negligent-homicide.

  • Maybe I am as the hatter as it were… or is it are? Crazy about vermillion as it were! Or is it as it are? Crazy I are! Or am? I care not for I am! When I hear people downtrodden cry, “Avast ye” I yell, “I’m Turboguy!!!”
    Do I subscribe to that whole we’re better than everyone else deal? You betcha. But then again I, probably unlike you, have been there, seen it, done it, bought the tee shirt and burned it. When you find one that’s better you let me know so I can go there and live. What’s actually funny about your silliness is that I’d love to know which country’s existence isn’t totally predicated upon murder directly or in negligence. Go ahead and do some research. I’ll wait for you to come up with a fat lot of nothing. HAR!
    Though now that I think about it, Antarctica was nice… Got a wicked sunburn there though… in a snowstorm. And these stupid birds that live there stole my french fries once too. I really wanted those fries… Oh and there was a really beautiful Nautral Sciences researcher at McMurdo (*GASP* I just noticed that there’s nearly Murder in the name of the place too!!!) that was walking with me when we were set upon by the evil fry stealers!
    Stupid birds.
    (If you haven’t noticed I could honestly care less about your silly rants regarding the evils of what you believe are “White Supremacy” and am countering your well rehearsed diatribe of silly comments with daft wit and diseased mind. So please continue and do try to figure out why vermillion mad the hatter mad. I’ll bet you’ll never know! HEE!!!)

  • Oh and Thanks for the offer Privi, but I must decline.
    I am, as of yet, far too much of a redneck whitey. And as for the pretending not to get torqued over you, well that’s just funny. I did get rather perturbed by Guy’s deal back there, but it was short lived. Your jabs at me don’t even show up on the radar.
    Again, thanks for the offer homie. ;)

  • A well rehearsed misogynistic white boy w/ world experience (including Antarctica and actual firearms expertise)is tough to conquer but I’ll give it a try. Hmm, how about you and I take a close look at your resume and see if we can’t find you a job where you can use your guns and world experience to do some real work. These brown folk in Africa just can’t get their shit together and lord knows the damn Mexicans are causing all kinds of problems for us. We could use your level headed judgment to clean up this god forsaken planet. I pray to the pretend guy in the sky every night that superior beings like yourself are out there keepin’ us all safe from all the left wingers, brown folk, women, gays, non-US of A citizens, and any other evildoer or socialist. Please let us know if you have any more experience. We really could use something to comfort us during these difficult times. Here all this time I just thought you were a TROLL like me.

  • Rofl, I love you too Privvi!
    Exactly what kinds of experience do you have? Oh and I’ve already nailed a couple in Sudan too. Janjaweed baddies. Got that one covered! Kung Fu kick to the jaw, “Whaa DA!”
    Still no thoughts on vermillion? Oh ye of little education?

  • Betcha Frank’s already got that one covered!
    Frank, don’t you dare say what it is either! I KNOW you know why vermillion made the hatter mad.

  • Ooh, can I jump in? Or should I remain silent like Frank?

  • Yes that includes you too. I know you’ve probably read books and history. Did you know that early percussion caps were made using the hatter’s trade? It was only he that knew the secret, and I’ll bet the vermillion the people wanted made him batshit wacknuts. I can only imagine trying to pry something out of him…
    I want the broken records to take a shot at it. They claim worldly knowledge, but have yet to come up with the answer.

  • Turbo your drunken slurred speech is driving us all mad. Even though you probably assume my mercury is rising I never see red because my nature is wonderment. Please light a match after you’re done.

  • I really have no idea what this ridiculous discussion is about anymore.
    Turbo, you are a true American.
    Your request for information about other countries in which to live is pointless, for you did not answer them from any position of genuine curiosity. Yet, for some reason, I am entertaining your query. It seems to me that your question could take me in one of three possible directions.
    First, if I were to assume (or concede) that your generalization was correct and that all cultures (and nations) were similarly based on murder and negligent homicide, what would that prove? Would it prove that murder was simply part of human nature, and therefore to be accepted as value-neutral? That ludicrous assumption absolves us of all moral responsibility beyond individual or tribal survival. The only moral code in that reality would be the neanderthal “might-makes-right” set of ethics. This does seem to fit with your weltanschauung, but I believe humanity might be capable of something superior to that.
    I could also accept the premise that all countries/cultures are based on murder and/or negligent homicide, and yet still hold to a set of moral premises in which scale mattered. That is to say, we could assume you are right, and yet the worst offenders would still be the worst in terms of morality.
    Or, I could reject your premise altogether and say, historical/geographical examples aside, this is not part of our entire nature – or at least not part of our potential.
    If either of the last two options is the case – and I believe it is – then we are morally bound to either find or create a way to live in which we do not contribute to the suffering of all other sentient beings.
    I am not naive. I am fully aware that we are late in the game and your mentality is more common. As I have no experience killing anyone or anything, and I have little to no interest in learning how, I admit that I am at a distinct advantage to you. I hope for a “peaceful powering down”. But what I fear is more likely is that you (or one of your tribe) will gun me/us down.
    In that case, you and your kind will most definitely win.

  • Privvi, you sir are now officially the MAN! I actually never thought you’d get it. Thank you!
    You didn’t look it up did you? I’ll bet Charlene was near bursting at the seams to answer that one.
    And Sputtering, nice non answer.
    I’ll help you eliminate many: All Europe are totally out of the question, they’ve been happily killing each other for years, Africa too. China’s by far one of the worst offenders and their government annually kill thousands of their own people… Hey what about Australia!? Oops wait… They stomped all over the Aborigiones for years. The Balkan states and Scandanavia are out. The Balkans astoundingly so. As for Central and South America, well, nothing like rampant corruption and nastiness for nastiness’s sake. Looks like pickings are slim, dude. I could go into jargon to feign sophisticated superiority, but honestly why?
    Murder is in our nature as is violence. Would it be nice if it wasn’t? Oh yeah. But it’s there and you’re not going to be able to do anything to get it out. If we look into a biblical sence, whether you subscribe to religion or not does not matter, the symbology is there, Cain smashing the head of his own brother. I.E. Murder has been in our blood since Grak picked up a club and bashed Ook about the head and neck. This isn’t cynicism, it’s reality.
    As for your last, rather laughable paragraph: Explain my mentality. If you took my experience in ending the life of another human being as me saying it was a good thing, you sir are an idiot and need to retake third grade reading comprehension. If I could wave the magic wand of time and tell myself not to be there when it happened I would happily take that experience away. It was a life altering, terrible one, and not one that I ever want to relive.
    I completely agree with your thoughts of a peaceful powerdown, 100%! You’re lamenting me wanting to prevent others from giving you and I exactly what we want? You’re just full of hypocritical dichotomy! If someone’s hacking down an electrical grid, wrecking cell towers, or disrupting energy shipments exactly how is that conducive to a “Peaceful powerdown?” Sounds a smidgen more like war and violence to me. Then again, I’m just an average “Whitey.”
    My kind… That’s a good one. I think there are only three kinds of people on this Earth: 1.Wolves, 2.Sheep, and 3.Sheepdogs. I am firmly in category three. I am not a threat to you unless you threaten my sheep. If you do I can, will, and have been a ferocious opponent, diplomatically, politically, and if need be, physically. Since you just don’t strike me as a category one or three kind of person, if “My kind” win, so does yours. It’s not me advocating violence against you to bring about my version of societal change. You want change? Fine. I’ll go with the flow. Don’t start getting violent though. If you do I’ll be there, and you’re not going to like the results.

  • turbs your words remind me of this quote
    ‘peak oil gun nuts look forward
    to the day when they can take
    pot shots at flesh eating zombies
    with a clear conscience’
    your ‘puzzle’ was not particularly
    challenging, anymore?
    You say you have travelled, and yet
    you sound like you have not been
    changed or inspired by the experience.
    Perhaps you were not really ‘there’,
    ie it was not America so you didn’t really experience it.
    The refrain I often hear overseas by
    Americans is that the so and so is bigger
    back home or similar. You should check out the
    life quality stats, the US rates quite poorly.
    Your overt gun toting insularity is a caricature of a ‘typical’ american.
    Perhaps you should call yourself ‘Captain America!’.
    your blonde haired blue eyed ‘brother’
    I did not realise I was white until I read
    this discussion, I did not know I had so much

  • I guess I’m just resourceful Turbo. Maybe it was the fact that my favorite bar in college was Mad Hatters.

  • Seriously, Turbo, you f—ing scare me, man.

  • We’re all mad as hatters here.
    ‘peak oil gun nuts look forward
    to the day when they can take
    pot shots at flesh eating zombies
    with a clear conscience’
    Good one, matt.
    Sometimes I think they’ve just watched too much in the way of resident evil movies, but then, who could blame them? They’re lonely guys and Mila is cute.
    I trust you’ve been by to visit the Druid in the past week, right? I noticed they mentioned someone for your part of the globe, well, Oceania anyway.

  • Again, nice non answer Sputtering. I will wait for the time you come up with one with baited breath.
    I have to give Privvi some respect, especially in light of his answer of Mercury as the reason the hatter was mad, but he, unlike you, has answers and replies. And though I may not agree with some of his positions, he makes them clear and does his best to cover all the bases when asked. We have fun insulting each other and whatnot, great fun, but there is cogent reply. Perhaps you should try the same instead of your silly little dismissal.
    Matt, our quality of life based on what? How many official studies come out with a non biased outcome? Last I checked we were 3rd Australia was 5th in the world.
    I’m at a total loss as to how they could have France as first. Packing immigrants into ghettos and treating them like second class citizens must add to quality of life. Oh and I almost forgot the near constant state of riot in those self same Warsaw style ghettos. Again a study will come out with any result that is convenient.
    Granted we could be better, Privvi’s probably got some suggestions, but we’re already the single place people want to go. If we’re so bad, why is it that we’re having to quite literally fight people away from our borders?
    And I not only was there I lived with the people. These include Costa Rica, Panama, Germany, Bolivia, and the last one, Iraq. The U.S. was just a better, more free place to live. I may be biased, but I prefer our version of Orwellian Draconian nightmare over everyone else’s. I’ve got a special hatred of those little cameras they’re fond of in Europe and Canada that take pictures of you if you’re speeding. I always thought you were supposed to be able to face your accuser. Guess that’s just an American value…
    As for your jab at my firearm enthusiasm, I don’t bring up your birdwatching enthusiasm as a euphemism for cowardice and call you the “Australian Avenger!” do I? Do attempt to refrain from the dreaded fallacious argument. (Straw Man/Needling/Inflation Of Conflict)
    Oh and welcome to Whitey-dom.

  • turb,
    I dont twitter (bird watching), you have confused me with young stanley
    (our long lost intellect).
    You may have noticed I dont offend easily, equally
    you dont need to be so brittle.
    I agree with your assertion regarding statistics.
    However, when the US is 5% of the worlds pop with
    25% of worlds prison pop you gotta ask the
    question why? (the black prison pop is disproportionate)
    Infant mortality numbers are better in Cuba.
    Anyway, my understanding of wealth and a standard of living
    is based how well the poor live. That is how a nation should be judged.
    There is no point being wealthy at an individual level with
    poverty and homelessness outside your front dooor.
    Futhermore, there are differnt ways of thinking out there.
    This goes without saying. Denmark, Norway and Netherlands come to mind.
    Charlene, somebody beat me to it, agreed, you have the most sensible voice here.
    Always tune in to the druid, another wise soul.

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