High tide of hate mail

The high tide of hate mail has rolled into my email in-box. I haven’t had such an invigorating dose of hate mail since I wrote an op-ed piece for Arizona’s largest and most conservative newspaper. I thought I’d share, just for your voyeuristic fun.

This is by no means a comprehensive account, and the mail continues to come in. My latest essay was headlined in a website dedicated to renouncing the notion of anthropogenic climate change, where I was called a “warmist prof.” Similar silliness fills the blogosphere, as a simple search reveals. At one website, comments include suggestions to kill me.

I try to be kind and rational as I respond to each piece of email I receive. This sometimes proves too difficult for me, in which case I try to be witty. Often, I fail. Usually people give up, finding me senseless, after one message and my response. But an occasional persistent person never lets go. I have received a couple dozen messages from one guy, the last dozen of which I’ve read with the DELETE key.

Without further ado, here they be. I’ve simply cut and pasted into this space, errors and all. I’ve removed names to protect the guilty.


> Before further embarassing yourself you may want to become more familiar
> with the climate issue. For starters, here’s a google document, written by
> your humble correspondent:
> http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddrj9jjs_0fsv8n9gw
> There are also references to a number of websites, and books included.
> Most of us have no intention of drinking any of your Kool-Aid !

Thanks, sir, for your concern about my embarrassment. I read as much of your essay as I could tolerate.

I suspect you are responding to my essay on Counter Currents, which first appeared on my blog: guymcpherson.com. Comments are welcome there, where your views would have a wide audience. You might want to read this brief essay to gain an overview of the science I cite there: https://guymcpherson.com/2009/10/apocalypse-or-extinction/

Ultimately, of course, my opinion does not matter. The facts are clear, though: western civilization nears its omnicidal end, and anthropogenic climate change will cause our extinction unless the end of western civilization comes very quickly.

Please join the conversation on my blog.

Best regards,


On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Bert Klein wrote:

> Its a sham that you still have access to the Internet. The fact that the
> 200year old hypotheses of “greenhouse gas effect” has never been proven by
> creditable scientific experiments means nothing to you or any other AGW
> fanatic.
> Its a waste of time to try to tell you any facts because there is no
> inteligence in you head to do any critical analysis of facts.
> Just one bite of information that you have choosen to ignore and would not
> understand the significanc of is- NOAA has acknowledge that 5 of its
> satallite data sets of temperature reading for the last decade is corrupted-
> many of the readings are from 10-500 degrees high. The faulty numbers have
> been averaged in to acceptable readings thus the temperture trends that they
> report are meaningless.

Thanks for your message, Bert, and for your concern about truth. I welcome your comments on my blog (guymcpherson.com), where your views would generate wide-ranging discussion.

You may want to read thie essay and the science underpinning it: https://guymcpherson.com/2009/10/apocalypse-or-extinction/

I agree with you about your opening statement. It’s a shame I still have access to the Internet. I look forward to the day, in the near future, when none of us have access to the Internet. That’ll be a wonderful day for the living planet, if not for western civilization.

Best regards,


> Sir,
> I can only conclude that you think everyone is a fool. Sadly, I have had to
> write you and many like minded thinkers on this issue. WE HAD 7,000PPM OF
> CO2 IN THE ATMOSPHERE billions of years ago, and now….390ppm. The earth’s
> oceans suck up co2. Why do you continue to make the false case that the
> earth cannot and will not do the same thing again, on an even smaller scale.
> Do you realize we are below the average amount of atmospheric co2 based on
> earth’s historical average? And no, we are not adding co2 at an
> unprecedented rate. In fact, it was being added much more rapidly in the
> time of the dinosaurs. I am happy to see you continue to burn coal by using
> a computer. This is my favorite part of the article “Increasingly dire
> forecasts from extremely conservative sources keep stacking up.” Are you
> kidding me? Sir, surely you realize we are now more equipped than ever to
> deal with natural disasters? Here is a fine example. Villagers living on an
> island near Hawaii. They have no warning system and no fast transport.
> Conversely, if a volcano is near a city, we have advanced warning systems
> and the capability of massive transport. Having that said, I encourage you
> to stay on your farm and pretend the world is going to blow up, despite the
> fact that temperature has been higher and we have had co2 amounts massively
> higher than what we experience today.

Dear Name:

Thanks for taking the time to send a message.

I do not believe everyone is a fool, or I would not be trying to awaken people to the converging crises of energy depletion and global climate change (cf. global warming).

I use solar panels to run my laptop. Thanks for bringing that up.

As a global-change scientist, I’m quite familiar with the facts and the usual irrational arguments. Your response does not surprise me, but it does trouble me. Clearly, scientists have failed to inform the public about the dire straits we’re in. We cannot persist long above 350 ppm CO2, but we’re committed to at least 392 ppm for the next thousand years. Toss in methane, and we’re at the equivalent of 460 ppm CO2. Earth will survive with high levels of CO2, but we won’t.

It was such a lovely planet, yet we’re such a short-sighted species. Sadly, evolution does that to every species.

I welcome your comments on my blog, which would give you a much wider forum than just me: guymcpherson.com.

Make it a great day.



> Monsieur Guy r Mcpherson,
> After going through your article, it became clear that you interested
> are too narrowly limited to economics and particularly energy. This does
> not give you right to terminate a civilization.
> Humanist

Humanist — I do not have the power to terminate western civilization, or I would. Such an act would free non-industrial cultures and non-human species from centuries of oppression. It might even allow our species to squeeze through the global-change bottleneck, barely. I assume you’d rather we destroy all cultures, then all species, including our own? Please drop by my blog to explain that to us: guymcpherson.com. Best regards, Guy


> Dear sir,
> Re.: http://www.countercurrents.org/mcpherson180810.htm
> Ref.: Quote, “It’s time to terminate western civilization before it
> terminates us.”
> Can I assume that, as you are part of western civilization, you will be
> willing to terminate yourself first; as a good example to the rest of us? I
> can assure you that the moment I hear of your demise I will take a razor to
> my own wrists.

If you’ll read my blog (guymcpherson.com), you’ll note that I will gladly give me life to terminate western civilization. You’ll also note I’ve largely abandoned western civilization.

Won’t you join me?

Comments are always welcome at my blog.

All the best,


> Geez, it must suck to be you! Were you abused as a child?

Actually, it’s great to be me. I live in the real world, adjacent to a huge wilderness area where I have built an off-grid property to thrive when the industrial era ends. You can read about the arrangements here: guymcpherson.com. Even better, I had loving parents and relatives, none of whom abused me as a child (or an adult).

And you? What’s your story? Or, are you merely a nameless troll?


> Sir,
> I’m not a professor of anything or any kind. I was at one time interested in
> the global warming issue and to be honest I couldn’t get enough of it. I
> read any article or blog I could get my hands or monitor screen on. During
> all of my research I started noticing things that didn’t add up, and by that
> I mean went against the basic science I learned when I was a whelp in high
> school. The more I dug in the more skeptical I became. Seeing AlGore the
> inconvenient movie didn’t help at all, I had to wave the bu@#&*it flag way
> too many times sitting through that. I am firmly in the skeptic’s ranks now
> and my opinion of the organized science community trying to foist this
> ridiculous warming hypothesis on the unclean ignorant public places science
> right in there with Ed Norton and his shovel. My main thought concerning the
> rebadged “climate Change” is why in the hell did ya’ll base your apocalyptic
> vision on runaway global heating, something that in the entire 4 billion
> year history of this planet has NEVER happened, instead of the
> scientifically known proven and I’d imagine even more devastating ice age
> which has happened many times in the planets past. Almost like a cycle the
> ice ages come and go it seems, but never once runaway global warming…

Thanks for your comment, sir. It’s the most civil one I’ve received today.

I’ve conducted research on global change for more than a decade. For a while, I tried to change minds. I’m done with that, and have focused for the last five years on economic collapse. And I’m nearly done with that, simply because I’m tired of the hate mail. If people want to ignore ongoing impacts of burning fossil fuels, fine. I gave plenty of warning.

All the best,


> Sir, You may wish to live a life of seclusion living on eco-produced food
> from your own garden but unfortunately this does not fit in with the rest of
> humanity.
> We have yet to attain peak oil, according to the oil experts. Oil is getting
> more difficult to remove from the crust but there seems to be plenty there.
> It id technically possible to manufacture oil from bio-digesters using
> modified bacteria. There is a plant in your country which is at the moment
> doing such a thing.
> Climate change has existed for 4.6Ba and will continue and there is no data
> that shows changes are any swifter than have existed in the past. Indeed the
> Medieval Warm Period warmed faster than the early 20th century and became
> warmer. No tipping point was reached then nor in the past. Why will any
> slight warming in future produce such a thing?
> This planet has some 8 Bn people who will be fed and provided energy to
> develop, despite thinking like yours, by 21 century technical advances using
> whatever energy source is necessary including fossil fuels.
> I notice that you still have an email address so complete seclusion is out
> then.

Dear Name:

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. We disagree about several items, as you know, so I will elaborate here.

Data clearly demonstrate we passed the world oil peak in May 2005. Even the U.S. Departments of Energy and Defense agree. At current demand, we have a 30-year supply, but we will never use the deep, expensive oil with low EROI. All so-called substitutes have similarly low EROI.

You would be wise to investigate the MWP more closely. It is constantly trotted out as an exercise in denial, but the facts suggest otherwise. I have been a global-change scientist for more than a decade, and I have seen no compelling evidence to suggest the scientific consensus is threatened.

Finally, I have no intention of escaping humanity. Rather, I am embracing humanity — mine and my neighbors’ — as I explain here: https://guymcpherson.com/2009/05/humanity-at-a-crossroads/

Please drop by my blog and leave comments. We have quite a vigorous discussion there, and I welcome learning more about your views.

Best regards,


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation
> Religious rants are fun…

I agree, they are

I’m a rationalist and anti-theist, though


> I don’t know what you are smoking, but could you get me
> some of it.
> The sky ain’t falling and using Chicken Little for political
> purposes is obscene.
> I saw no heavy emphasis on population reduction, truly
> our #1 problem in good Earth stewardship.
> I may not slit my wrists, but eating my gun sounds pretty
> good.

Thanks for your message, and for taking the time to send it. I agree that the sky is not falling. Indeed, the end of western civilization is very good news for those of us who care about non-industrial cultures, non-human species, and the continued persistence of humans on Earth. I suspect there are about a dozen of us. You’re not one. Many of the 186 essays at guymcpherson.com, the original source of the essay you read, refer to overpopulation. Check ’em out. Leave comments, please. And make it a great day. –Guy


> Dr. McPherson,
> You started out your piece mentioning a fossil fuel addiction. I alway know
> when I see that that there will be a call to implement policies that will
> result in misery and death on a grand scale. You ought to be ashamed of
> yourself! I am ashamed of you as an American and as someone who once
> respected American academics. First we are not “addicted” to fossil fuels at
> all. That is a ridiculous anti-intellectual cheap appeal to an emotional and
> illogical response. Fossil fuels are the foundation of modern economic and
> indeed survival activity. Without replacing these very abundant fossil fuels
> with inexpensive alternatives before curbing their use, the result will be
> genocide and misery on an immense scale, and you know it.
> You make a claim that we are facing global warming. That is hogwash and most
> people now know that fact. It has been conclusively demonstrated that
> climate is primarily heliocentric and that we are indeed beginning a new ice
> age or at least a mini-ice age following a brief and somewhat subdued period
> of mild warming (which was very mild in comparison to the Holocene Maximum
> and even the medieval warm period) that was completely natural and cyclical,
> and indeed heliocentric in origin. Furthermore, the global warming movement
> has been exposed for the huckster’s scam that it is. Because of the lack of
> a real foundation for your claims (as well as a lack of a real conscience
> and descent character), the global warming advocates have resorted to fraud
> and criminal activity on a grand scale. This has included the fraudulent use
> of the names of non-scientists’, non-climate scientists’ names, and
> dissenting scientists names on lists that are claimed to be lists of
> supporters of the global warming claim. It has included unethical gagging of
> all dissenting voices. It has included too many forms of fraud and coercion
> for me to briefly mention.
> In addition to making outdated and discredited claims about global warming
> you make reference, as if it is a proven fact, and it isn’t, to peak oil.
> Peak oil is a scam! In fact, in the years since the claims that the sky is
> falling regarding the peak oil scenario, huge oil fields and reserves have
> been found off of the coast of Brazil, in Canada, Montana, and other
> locations as well as discoveries that the oil reserves in Iraq and other
> current oil fields are twice as big as previously believed. The United
> States has immense coal reserves in addition to other immense fossil fuel
> reserves. Tragically and outrageously, however, the repressive and
> nihilistic “greens” (they are really more akin to “reds”) environmentalist
> militant murderous thugs have prevented the use of most of our immense
> domestic fossil fuel sources. Soviet and later Russian engineers have made a
> very convincing case that oil is constantly renewed through abiotic
> processes, as I am sure that you are aware.
> You should really just admit that you have no case but that you hate other
> humans and wish to destroy them and follow in the footsteps of Hitler and
> Stalin who are apparently your role models. At any rate, your nihilistic
> and genocidal plans are coming to an end and the people are becoming aware
> of what you and your ilk really are!
> Sincerely,

Dear Name:

Thanks for your message, and for taking the time to pass it along. Unfortunately, I suspect I am correct about global climate change and peak oil. I have studied these issues for the last decade. Abundant evidence, in the form of models and data, support both concepts.

If you’d like to read more, please peruse the 186 essays at guymcpherson.com. While you’re there, please post comments so we can discuss your ideas in a common forum. I like to have all ideas discussed in a public forum, so we can evaluate them rationally.

Make it a great day, and thanks in advance for commenting on my blog.

Best regards,


> Dear Professor Emeritus:
> You have convinced me, as well as a great many others, about the current
> dire status of Western Civilization. Your great mind is needed at this
> time. Like Einstein, you will have an everlasting imprint on mankind for
> your contributions.
> As the average man feels hopeless in being disarmed with an ineffective
> intellect compared to your own, we all ask what we’d do without your
> assessment of Western Civilization’s current status?
> Best regards,

Thanks for your high praise, Cheryl. Nobody appreciates tongue in cheek assessment as I do.

Unlike Einstein, however, the end of western civilization ensures my voice will be scattered by the winds of time. So, there really is nothing to be done. We’ve fucked the planet, and now it’s our turn to bend over. As my blog is titled, Nature Bats Last.

Best regards,


> Mr. McPherson, You would benefit by getting out more or
> maybe getting some kind of professional help. As you should
> know, the earth has been cooling since 2000. Recent events
> have shown that the high global temps reported by NOAA are
> incorrect because of satellite problems. Sorry to disappoint you
> but the sky is not falling, the seas are not rising abnormally, the ice
> isn’t melting at the poles, the polar bears are fine. I hope you can get
> some help. There are a lot of great doctors.
> Yours truly

Name — Thanks for your kind concern. As a global-change scientist, I DO know Earth has been warming, despite the babble you’ve been led to believe. We have experienced the warmest decade in history within the last 10 years. The facts are clear. You might want to check them. Best regards, and make it a great day. –Guy

Comments 40

  • Guy,

    Thanks. That was fun, though ultimately depressing to read.

  • There is a difference between being ignorant, and being intentionally ignorant. Intentional ignorance is malice. And in this case, it is also comical. Well played.

  • Guy,

    Long-time lurker; first-time poster.

    Ran Prieur (http://ranprieur.com) recently gave your blog a considerate bump. (Your paths are crossed, if only digitally, it seems.)

    I note that, both in the rigor of daily life and the gory anonymity of Internet non-life, a generous swath of the general public appear to have embraced the anti-climate change rhetoric. This appears to be accelerating,
    thus validating Kübler-Ross, despite the overwhelmingly (and increasingly) bad news on the weather front: the flooding of Pakistan and China, the burning of Russia and Ecotopia (i.e., British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, northern California), et al.

    You have responded to incoming ad hominems with remarkable clarity, humility, and generosity. For that, and your continued endurance here and elsewhere, thank you. (It can’t be easy. It hasn’t been for me… or any of us, I think, enmeshed as we are in this new arena of words and disorderly collapses.)

    Humbly yours and may you have a warm week,

  • Whenever I am in, or hear of instances like what you have just been through it makes me think of my favorite scene of “The Matrix”:

    They are still a part of the system. And that makes them our enemy.

  • Hey Guy, surprised you actually got emails – after my recent caning on Prison Planet (or so they would like to think), and coverage on about 300 or so blogs about my terrorist and “eugenicist” tendencies (got to agree with the former, from a legal standpoint), no one plucked up the courage to actually write to me.

    Or maybe I just have a *really* good spam filter 🙂

  • Guy,

    No wonder all of these trolls keep appearing here. You keep inviting them! Thanks for sharing. I’m guessing it must hurt their brains working so hard to twist the facts to fit into their belief system. On second thought, most of them seem to have someone else twisting the facts for them.

    I was happy to discover that we are not addicted to fossil fuel; we just can’t do without it. I feel so much better.

    Michael Irving

  • Well… I was right, after all, you see? Even writing a couple truths in a blog you’re targeted by many idiots. Imagine if you really did something against industrial civilization. So, forget about the “warrior”.

    We have a proverb in my country: “too much barking, too little biting”. Most of these people are just ignorant idiots unable to find their own ass with both hands. And I’m not scared of such stupid people.

    If it does not work:



  • BTW, these guys threatening you behind their screens are just amateurs (I am not): IGNORE them.

    I’d like to say that it would be a nice idea for any single struggler to get some good military training. Things look bad, and very soon this is going to become very… interesting.

  • Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. ~Buddha

  • I was very encouraged to read an article last Tuesday in the Wall Street Journal entitled “Voters Back Tough Steps to Reduce Budget Deficit.” What is discouraging is that some people, mostly Republican politicians, are trying to convince people that tax cuts do not contribute to the deficit. This is not only misinformation, it is dangerous misinformation.

    The misinformers’ claim is that tax cuts pay for themselves and thus do not impact the deficit negatively. They claim that lower tax rates stimulate the economy and job growth so much that you wind up with more tax revenues at lower rates than you do at higher rates. While President Bush was telling the public that tax cuts pay for themselves, his 2003 Economic Report of the President, pages 57-58, told a very different story:

    “Although the economy grows in response to tax reductions (because of higher consumption in the short run and improved incentives in the long run), it is unlikely to grow so much that lost tax revenue is completely recovered by the higher level of economic activity.”

    The above is from Mark Haines of CNBC.CNBC is strongly in favor of letting the tax cuts expire on 12/31/2010.Who’d of thunk.

    Double D

  • Guy,

    We are talking about anthropocentrism vs non-anthropocentrism. I believe when debating with anyone regarding politics, religion, economics and/or environmental issues, it is imperative to determine which premise of the above 2 options one subscribes to. Ideologies and opinions will always differ if one uses either of these as main premise. For me, this is at the core of all problems in the world today.

    It seems to me that all of your detractors have one thing in common, and that is anthropocentrism. Why bother responding to their ilk? It seems like a lost cause to me.

    Otherwise, I would like thank you for the wonderful inciteful work you are doing on this blog.

  • Dear McPherson,

    I know you are very sincere in your beliefs, but somewhere along the line you missed out on some very important pieces of information:

    1) The Earth makes oil faster than we can use it, so we need to punch holes in the Earth to relieve the pressure.

    2) The Earth is headed into an ice age. It was much warmer in medievil times. Icefields at the poles are growing, as are most glaciers around the world.

    3) Everyone (except real dingbats) knows that debts and deficits do not matter. If you have difficulty making payments on a laon you can always take out another loan to cover payments.

    Now, in view of the dire prospect of the Earth becoming engulfed in ice and oil volcanoes erupting unpredictably, it is our duty, as good citizens, to borrow as much money as possible to buy devices that use oil; if we can burn oil as quickly as possible we can get the level of CO2 in the atmosphere up to a more suitable level before it’s too late.

    Yours sincerely,

    Kevin Moore

    P.S. Didn’t you know that was why BP drilled down 6km into the Earth and set fire to the oil when it came to the surface?

    P.P.S. Now for something serious. When people tell me that in the past the level of CO2 in the atmosphere was twice the current level (or more), I ask them what the weather waw like (and how much of the surface was habitable).

    P.P.P.S. Sorry about using your blog to retain my sanity.

  • Thanks for passing on your personal encounters of the third kind. It is amusing.

    I don’t worry about such taking a toll on you. You seem to have sense enough to place their responses into some sort of context that doesn’t give them much power.

    I think there is something instructive, too, about putting the trolls out in the sunshine. They are somehow reduced, as if their own pre-shrunk perterbations didn’t reduce them enough.

    A question that these responses, along with the comments I often see at the end of an article in say, The Guardian or NYT, leads me to is, “If there are this many ‘crazies’ out there, and the preponderance of people are apathetic, is Guy’s guess of about a dozen people who give a shit, about right? Anybody wanna weigh in on that one?

  • @Kevin Moore,

    I am glad we humans showed up to release the internal pressure from all that oil. Lord knows this volcanic rock called Hawaii I am sitting on has enough to do. My grand pappy used to tell me how people would be a-walkin’ in a field in Texas when all the sudden they would be goosed by an oil deposit releasin’ some of that pressure. I always thought he was drinkin’ too much and having delusions but glad you straightened it out for me.

    (#3 has me thinking you are a fake dumbass. If you are good work.)

  • Thanks for sharing the emails Guy…They don’t surprise me a bit! There is so much evidence for Global Warming and Peak Oil and yet a great deal of the population think it’s all a scam to tax them! You did a great job responding back and giving them some more education on the subject. I’ve mentioned Peak Oil to people and they have never heard of it. This is why humanity is in alot of trouble because we have lived a fantasy for so long that people believe nothing will prevent it. Now when the fantasy comes crashing down people will think the world is over! Addiction is a terrible thing and humanity in the present is truly Addicted…THANK YOU!

  • The cyclical view of history (as opposed to the more traditional linear view) held by Strauss and Howe in their book “The Fourth Turning” dovetails perfectly with your view, Guy. (I believe yours is the voice of an optimist, whatever your detractors seem to think.) We entered a new Fourth Turning, or Crisis era, some years ago (probably with 9/11). The last Crisis was WWII. I do not think America will emerge stronger afterward, as we did in ’45… but something will emerge, hopefully, something better than we’ve had. A fell Winter is upon us all. Stock up on your acorns while you can; for however cold, dark, and long our Winter, Spring will come again.

    I hope it is not just a spring for America, or for humans only, but for all life. A remarkable opportunity lies before us. Thanks to Guy for helping show the way.

  • @Keith Farnish, Thank you for sharing your work! wonderful discovery =) Now I must return to listening 😉

    @Kevin & John ROTHFLMAO! thanks

  • Although Laird McPherson has taken some hits, his carapace remains intact. Quite important to one’s (mental) well-being.

    The industrial-strength emoting in Laird McPherson’s inbox is a consequence of other’s mental distress. When arguments threaten to demolish one’s cognitive bastions, as emotional cloak for one’s insecurity is all that is left. Some choose to stand their ground spouting emotion, others flee.

    Jean suggests military training. As the old saying goes, the difference between the Boy Scouts and the Army is that the Boy Scouts have adult supervision. Having missed out on the former, I offer a link to the latter:
    Army Common Tasks Training

  • Well, to be more accurate, I suggest getting true combat skills. The second difference between armies and boy scouts is that a boy scout is unable to cut throats and have an orange juice a minute later, just to relax. And that’s a very useful skill, considering what is coming.

  • “fear less, hope more, eat less,
    chew more, whine less, breathe more,
    talk less, say more, love more and all
    good things will be yours”

    Swedish proverb

  • Ciao Guy! Seems like you’ve stuck a chord with these people;-) Keep up the good work! Un abrazo,

  • This from CNBC today:

    Economy Caught in Depression, Not Recession: Rosenberg
    Posted By: Jeff Cox | CNBC.com Staff Writer
    CNBC.com | 24 Aug 2010 | 11:23 AM ET
    Positive gross domestic product readings and other mildly hopeful signs are masking an ugly truth: The US economy is in a 1930s-style Depression, Gluskin Sheff economist David Rosenberg said Tuesday.

    Writing in his daily briefing to investors, Rosenberg said the Great Depression also had its high points, with a series of positive GDP reports and sharp stock market gains.

    But then as now, those signs of recovery were unsustainable and only provided a false sense of stability, said Rosenberg.

    Rosenberg calls current economic conditions “a depression, and not just some garden-variety recession,” and notes that any good news both during the initial 1929-33 recession and the one that began in 2008 triggered “euphoric response.”

    “Such is human nature and nobody can be blamed for trying to be optimistic; however, in the money management business, we have a fiduciary responsibility to be as realistic as possible about the outlook for the economy and the market at all times,” he said.

    The 1929-33 recession saw six quarterly bounces in GDP with an average gain of 8 percent, sending the stock market to a 50 percent rally in early 1930 as investors thought the worst had passed.

    “False premise,” Rosenberg said. “And guess what? We may well be reliving history here. If you’re keeping score, we have recorded four quarterly advances in real GDP, and the average is only 3%.”

    Rosenberg’s warning comes as a slew of major analysts—Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan among them—have slashed GDP projections for 2010 to the 1.5 to 2 percent range.

    Chicago Federal Reserve President Charles Evans said in a speech Tuesday that the risk of a double-dip recession has escalated. He said government programs to help distressed homeowners have been ineffective and aren’t helping the pivotal housing sector recover.

    The dour outlooks come on the same day that the National Association of Realtors said home sales reached a 15-year low in June, dousing hopes that the industry had reached a bottoming point.

    Rosenberg points out that the “overall economic malaise” has come despite aggressive efforts by the Federal Reserve to stimulate the economy through rate cuts. The central bank itself has scaled back its economic projections, has held steady on its balance sheet, and could be announcing another round of quantitative easing measures at its Jackson Hole summit this week.

    “How’s that for a reality check,” Rosenberg said. “It’s not too late, by the way, to shift course if you have stayed long this market

    Double D

  • Frank Mezek,

    Gluskin Sheff, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Chicago Federal Reserve President Charles Evan, and the National Association of Realtors ALL giving us the same bad news Guy has been talking about? I wonder how the trolls will spin that?

    I was going to thank you for the good article and then I realized reading it made me want to puke.

    Michael Irving

  • Common Task Training is an essential part of combat effectiveness. And most soldiers will prefer to fill their canteens with water rather than orange juice. The ability to kill the adversary effeciently is a very basic requisite, quite essential but not sufficient; a means to an end.

  • Aloha Guy:

    To paraphrase Dr. C Glendinning, my name is Lonnie and I am in recovery from Western Civilization!

    Well, I am trying to be in any case. It is quite an overwhelming task to accomplish.

    With regard to you and Nature Bats Last, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to me.

    Keep up the great work!


  • Lonnie,


    “My name is Lonnie and I am in recovery from Western Civilization! Well, I am trying to be in any case. It is quite an overwhelming task to accomplish.”

    That’s it exactly. The immediate picture that popped into my mind was a school of fish swimming in the sea. It was one of those “off Bermuda” type ocean views; clear water at some depth so everything was blue, a few small things floating around, and then a school of fish passing, totally in tune with their place in the world breathing their environment, turning…………

    And I said to myself, “Exactly!” Western Civilization envelops us. We’re like the individual fish in a school of mackerel, surrounded by and a part of the ocean. We are in tune with it through all our senses. We eat and breathe it. It even enters us through our skin. We become as totally immersed in it as a fish in the sea.

    And like a fish leaving the water it is hard to break free, and in fact it’s deadly. We cannot leave the sea of Western Civilization without committing a kind of suicide. We have to kill the people we are and become new people. We have to leave our old life behind and begin again, not unlike the first fish/amphibians that crawled up out of the sea onto dry land to discover a new world. Once we’ve left we can never return.

    Thanks for your comment.

    Michael Irving

  • I strongly recommend Chellis Glendinning’s book, from which Lonnie’s analogy is borrowed. It’s time to kill the Buddha.

  • Guy I love your blog its brilliant!! We dont agree an everything – well the man in the sky part anyway. But I totally get where your coming from. These Emails are really interesting,they all seem very threatened by you. This leads me to suggest that they are not nearly as secure in their view points as they like to pretend. You however show how comfortable you are with your conclusions and your gracious responses to their Emails just underline how shaky their cases really are. I’m no expert but even I could see holes in their arguments I could drive a bus through!
    Please keep doing what you are doing. Believe me you are making a difference. Thank you.

  • hi Guy, I feel your pain(the hateful and hurtful emails) and just want you to know, like many of your faithful posters that I think your blog is one of the best out there. I read it faithfully and sadly I agree with it. I admire the lifestyle changes you have made and I use you to bolster my strength to make my own difficult changes.
    thank you for everything- you do have friends out there.

  • reference link =


    I heard an interview today on the radio with Lt. Colonel Robert Bowman PhD of the US Air Force (Retired). An impressive thinker and amazingly progressive for a career military man. He was dead on on the importance and relevance of all the issues discussed in the interview (mostly about 9/11 and the phony “War on Terror”.

    Take a look at the positions of this high level military officer on all sorts of issues, including gay rights, global warming, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

    Very impressive to me! I took some comfort in his radio interview in his mention of an organization he is involved with called “Oathkeepers” which is emphasizing to active-duty military and law enforcement personnel that their sworn duty is to defend the Constitution of the United States of America, which means disobyeing potential orders such as to round up and detain American dissidents, engage in illegal wars of aggression, etc.

    And I liked Dr. Bowman’s point that global warming is scientifically proved and that the solutions need not harm the economy, but are resisted by entrenched interests who have already caused much fiscal harm to the masses.

    I don’t really know if Bowman understands the complexities and reality of Peak Oil, but I sense that he is the sort of rational thinker who could integrate Peak Oil very readily into his worldview and work effectively to deal with it in the interests of the public.

    Stan Moore

  • Guy,
    Regarding the assessments from The Pentagon and the Department of Energy, it is very unlikely either would have gone out on the peak oil limb if they didn’t believe it. There is no way the Joint Forces assessment would have been published with such strong conclusions if the SEC DEF had not signed off on it. Having published most of my professional work through the Defense Intelligence Agency (as an infrastructure analyst there) I know how difficult the pier review process is in DoD.
    Many of the comments above remind me of e-mails I once got as an intelligence officer, lots of hate mail from CIA and ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) concerning my assessments that they didn’t want to hear primarily for political reasons. Seems to be the same with global warming. It does get tiresome to listen to such responses, but it seems you handle them rather well.
    Keep fanning the fire, we don’t need global warming to destroy us, our own greed seems to be doing the trick (though from an agricultural perspective climate change will be our undoing.)
    Thanks again,
    Randy Crompton
    Sterling Bridge Dairy Farm,
    Willis, VA.

  • ‘It’s time to kill the Buddha.’

    now you are quoting the Buddha

    I like it!

  • surreality- the realization that ignorance and delusion are epidemic, virtually universal, in our culture, and it’s probably always been so, and probably always will be, for as long as it, or our species, survives. the depth and breadth of this ignorance and delusion are mind boggling, leading to overwhelming despair.

    i think there are many more than a dozen or so people in the world cognizant of the dire situation we’re in re. ‘peak everything’ and the threat of runaway, catastrophic, mass extinction inducing climate change, who essentially agree with the view that industrial civilization is the culprit. i suspect many, like myself, remain essentially closeted for a variety of reasons, including a sense of despair, and the perception that people like guy are already articulating these concerns more comprehensively, knowledgably, and persuasively than we possibly can.

    that said, still we’re an infintessimably small fraction of the population. not much we can do except try to prepare for the tsunami of collapse and tragedy that’s coming, maintain some semblance of sanity, and continue enjoying life as much as possible while it’s still possible to do so.

    very interesting blog. i’ve come across it several times in the past year or so thanks to carolyn baker’s news service, and started to really get into it the past month. my first post here, first of many to come, maybe. it’s an island of awful sanity in our cultural sea of absurd ignorance and delusion, a fool’s paradise.

  • “That said, still we’re an infintessimably small fraction of the population. not much we can do except try to prepare for the tsunami of collapse and tragedy that’s coming”

    Preparing for the disaster means a lot, since our children will be the future, once the industrial civilization collapse. We are the future (and also some lucky, super-fit ones). One thing is for sure: we shall develop the new model of civilization.

  • Seems the twins of denial and attack run through and through, whether in reference to the parts or the whole. On the Gulf Coast (Florida) we’ve witnessed the same nastiness this summer from within our own communities.

    When Alaska marine toxicologist, Dr. Rikki Ott visited our town, she spoke of the two realities we would witness; the reality as reported by the government and vested interests, and the reality we will personally experience. She then spoke of how we would turn against each other, thereby relieving BP, the local government, and the Tourist Development Council of having to do damage control at the local level. To date, anyone questioning the water and air data (still lacking and inconclusive) or the ongoing operations, will find themselves in the small company of other supposed loons, fear mongers, and economic terrorists, who could only wish to spoil everyone’s fun and livelihoods. I’ve seen many a friend grow quiet at the end of exasperation from attacks by their own community members.

    Guy, you have met the challenge with grace and ease and I’m thankful you have the good humor to share.

  • My first thought on this thread was, “what a boring waste of time.”

    Here we are, during what will probably be considered the Greatest Mass Delusion in human history. Why bother re-hashing the ravings of the lunatics? Why feed the desperate, dying trolls? Let their groans fall on deaf ears.

    But then I remember I still live among these same desperate trolls. That this hate mail could have been sent to Guy by any one of my locals – my friends, my relatives, my neighbors.

    And then I realize that I do need to be reminded of what my local trolls really think of me, but currently are still too polite to say directly to my face.

    And I realize I better be prepared for the day my local trolls turn rabid, shed their fake civility, and come looking for a convenient scape goat that happens to live within walking distance.

    Time to move.

    Thank you for the reminder guy.

  • Gy and all
    Alas the scary thing is most of our so called leaders believe the anti us/truth emails you posted, IE New Zealand is borrowing 240 million a week and building roads as fast as they can get the permits, which are being made easier to get as more and more blind criminals gain more power over the pig ignorant masses.
    In NZ when to many people were objecting to the damage dairy farming was doing to our waterways etc the govt sacked the people who were ‘left wing’ (read more planet friendly) who were listening… and put in place their planet fucking cronies, now we can keep producing milk for China, disregarding some of our rivers that are now some of the worst in the world. but they still call us ‘clean green nz”
    So because politicians and the media like to have feet in both camps and report/listen to – issues in a ‘balanced’ way they always come up short of the mark.
    If we build one more statue the gods will be pleased and give us all we need to have heaven on earth …. just one more statue

  • new essay worth reading:


    to which I add and invite perspective from Guy and others:

    All the financial smoke and mirrors of Bernanke and Geithner and others cannot produce real growth in the economy. And our economy is based on the “grow or die” model. So it will die because it has no alternative.
    More spasms of denial and financial magic will be pulled by those in power and those who want to preserve the status quo until reality finally and irreversibly intervenes.

    As much as I hate the thought of a return to power by the Republican Right and the Tea Party dufus crowd, it would be very amusing to see them return to power and then see them “heal” the economy. Since these people are only capable of self-harm, their likely tactics of starving the government except for the military would probably result in revolution. If they did away with Medicare and Social Security so that they could pay for more military misadventures, they might find that they would have to use their military to suppress dissent by the retired workers and pensioners they are talking about tossing aside.

    There is no rosy scenario based on reality by any political agenda. Unfortunately, there is also no likelihood of using basic decency and fairness in the distribution of wealth and government services to the general population. In a steady state economy as opposed to a growth economy, the sensible policy mode in a democracy would be to treat everyone fairly and see to it that wealth and government services are distributed equitably amonst the citizenry.

    Unfortunately, this sort of thinking is not characteristic of Sara Palin, Barack Obama or anyone else on the political scene with a realistic chance of shaping the national agenda.

    Fortunately, though, we have learned from Guy McPherson’s “fan club” that global warming is no longer an issue, so we can be thankful that we can focus our attention elsewhere, which is what see seem to be doing anyways…

    Stan Moore

  • Stan, I have a mixed response to the piece you linked. I do not believe the financial collapse was engineered by the powers that be, and I don’t think they’ll plan another one. I think expensive oil caused that collapse, but any number of factors could cause another huge step down for the industrial economy. We came very close to complete economic collapse several times after the price of oil spiked over $140/bbl. As much as I’d like to see power-brokers in wingtips and suits grubbing for insects to feed themselves, I don’t think that’s an outcome they desire.

    So, I don’t believe the collapse was engineered, but it’s easy to imagine another downturn on the way. As Dmitry Orlov described shortly after Obama’s election, he’s the American Gorbachev: He promised openness and reform, as did Gorbachev. It bought a little time for the collapsing empire. But, as with the Soviet Union, we have a significant military presence in Afghanistan (and elsewhere, in a textbook case of imperial overreach), we’re financially bankrupt, and there is no hope of anything resembling a recovery.

    All in all, I agree with you Stan: We’ll see more smoke and mirrors, more promises that even Obama knows he cannot keep, and a few more spasms as the industrial economy chokes and dies. We might see a few token tea-party nutcases infiltrate Congress, but I doubt the Democrats will lose a majority in either the House or Senate. And I doubt it matters, except in the very shortest of short runs.