suicide

by the virgin terry

my response to collapse is very different from those of u intent on preparation and maximizing your survivability during and after. i think some of u are sadly deluded re. how long, rough, and severe a ride u’re in for. barring devastating global warfare which utterly destroys civilization, i think collapse will very likely play out in many ways and stages for untold generations to come. i think within the lifetimes of some of us here, personal collapse will become severe enough to make suicide an attractive option, if available.

unfortunately, suicide is particularly problematic in a culture which generally abhors the very idea, shunning it aside, refusing to allow others to openly consider it or make plans and cooperative arrangements with those who may be sympathetic. here in the u.s.a., with it’s dominant strain of ‘christian’ puritanical intolerance and powerful ‘pro-life’ lobby, i think only one or 2 states fairly recently passed laws allowing physician assisted suicide under tight controls and restrictions, as seems always to be the case when ‘the state’ is calling the shots. for the vast majority of american citizens who for various reasons find life not worth living, suicide, however desirable, is an act which must be pursued with a degree of stealth. suicidal sheople generally have no one to turn to for help with this final act, adding to it’s difficulty and emotional anguish.

call me sentimental, but i think death, like birth, calls for celebration. who wants to die alone? who wants to carry the psychological burden of saying good bye to this life alone? it seems a natural thing to want to have companionship at life’s end, to have a hand to hold. perhaps have a public celebration of the life lived, however meager it may have been, prior to ‘the act’. also allow relatives, friends, and acquaintances a chance to say goodbye and make peace with the soon to be departed.

don’t get me wrong. i’m not close to committing suicide, and i sure as hell am not surreptitiously crying out for help. much about my life sucks, but there’s still good to be had and much i wish to learn. my survival instinct remains strong, and i hope to get every last drop of quality living in before it’s time to call it a life. i doubt i’ll even commit suicide. like many i’ll probably wait too long and lose control of my own fate, or lack desirable circumstances and/or the fortitude. but simple rational uncensored thought leads me to bring this topic up, just to get acclimated to the idea, and to introduce perhaps a greater element of surreality to the discussion surrounding collapse and die-off.

too many sheople contributing to a culture of myopic idiotic greed and ecocidal mania ensures there’s a collapse and sharp die-off to come. history does not encourage the thought that any of it will be planned or orderly. for many it may come down to a choice of death by one’s own hand vs. continuing a life of unbearable suffering and hardship, followed by death by means not of one’s own choosing. if so, i think the choice is clear, or should be, would be, in a culture with more respect for individual freedom and dignity.

__________

according to the author, he has led a quite unremarkable life to anyone other than himself. he became alienated and socially isolated early in life as a child-adolescent around the age of 11 in particular, which thereafter had a diminishing/inhibiting effect on his social development. he excelled in school until college, where overwhelmed by loneliness and lack of structure, he quit after completing only one semester at the state university of ny (suny) at buffalo. there he witnessed the great blizzard of 1977 with snowbanks on city sidewalks towering over pedestrians. a year later, searching for direction and security, he joined the u.s. navy, where, due to his relative intelligence, he was encouraged to join the navy’s nuclear power program. he excelled in that school, and spent 4 subsequent years aboard the nuclear powered aircraft carrier the u.s.s. nimitz, then stationed in norfolk, va. the most notable events during his time there were a failed attempt launched from the nimitz in the spring of 1980 to send helicopters to tehran to rescue 52 american hostages being held by the new, virulently anti-american regime of the ayatollah khomeini in the wake of the revolution which deposed the hated shah, who had been instilled in power years ago by an american-inspired coup. the other notable event involved a crash landing on the flight deck that resulted in 14 deaths and a scary aviation fuel fire which took about an hour to extinguish.

he was about to re-enlist for another 6 years with an eye towards becoming a ‘lifer’ in the service to take advantage of the generous retirement pension available immediately to those with at least 20 years of service behind them when his mother rather unexpectedly died from lung cancer in the spring of 1984. this event caused tvt to reconsider staying in a situation he found almost unbearable, so he got out, which surreally put him on his present path of solitary self-education and further extreme separation from conventional thought.

to be continued, perhaps, later.

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Next-day update: Guy McPherson was interviewed by Max Keiser on the Keiser Report. See second half of clip below.

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12 July update: My latest essay for Transition Voice appeared today. It’s here.

Comments 128

  • I’ve often thought that perhaps “end of suffering counselor” would be a very much in-demand skill in a post-collapse world.

  • Nations and Societies can choose to commit collective suicide by starting a War often for no rational reason at all! Suicide becomes very easy when the enemy blow you away in the mad heat and rush of battle, and you’re remembered briefly as a war hero and have the melancholy trumpet lament played in your memory.Much more preferable to a cold blooded decision,all by your lonesome! For Example: Historians still can’t fathom why the First World War kicked off followed by its massive incredible slaughter:there was no single reason that could have possibly justified this epochal tragedy. One commentator has said both wars were attempts by European civilisation to commit suicide! Food for thought!

  • It is a sad indictment of the current dominant culture that so many teenagers commit suicide. And, I believe far more US returned soldiers commit suicide than die in action these days.

    For many months someone I know referred to the ‘helium solution’ in almost every conversation. But a change in circumstnaces has resulted in discussion about where to run to avoid the worst horrors of the coming meltdown. Neither the ‘helium solution’ nor the ‘sodium hydroxide’ solution are likely be available 20 years from now. So perhaps some ancient plant wisdom will be revived. A now-departed friend spoke very highly of hemlock, though he passed away under the influence of modfern medicine.

  • To end the self, the first requirement is to have a sense of a self, as a discrete and separate individual “being”. This is the perception under which (unenlightened) sentient beings labor. The word “Nirvana” (Sanskrit) or “Nibbana” (Pali and modern Bengali) is customarily translated into English as “enlightenment” but actually means “extinguishing”, and refers to the process of extinguishing the sense of one’s individual self. 

    This is referred to in the Buddhist tradition as “The Great Death”. Once this is achieved, the individual life may go on for a time as a result of already operating circumstances (or as it is termed, karma). It has been described as a potter’s wheel that spins because of periodic pushes given to it by the potter. Once the pushes stop, the wheel continues spinning on its own momentum for a while before it stops. When one reaches “enlightenment” one has no need to put a brake to the wheel: Nature takes its own course. 

    In both Buddhist and Kabbalist cosmology are described the Void: Sunyata in Buddhism and Ain Sof in Kabbalah. This is referred to as the Void that is not empty; indeed it is said to be more lull than the fullest imaginable, similar to some of the ideas in modern physics. In such a paradigm, the world-view accessible to us is but a minuscule part of reality. That which is outside our access is outside our comprehension of reality, and for us, does not exist. What should be taken away from this is that just because to our comprehension “nothing exists beyond” it must not be overlooked that our comprehension may have limitations. 

    The other aspect of the end to the sense of an individual self is the full acknowledgement of interdependent co-origination: the understanding that nothing exists “by itself”. Everything in the universe contributes to the existence if the least grain of sand, and vice versa. Neither would exist without the other. 

    The concept of an independent “soul” is thus dispensed with. From the Hindu tradition, any “soul” is not separate from any other “soul”: a homogeneous isotropic universal soul can thus be ignored, if that is one’s choice. 

    As a famous Jew once said, “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness, and everything else shall be added unto you”. Implicit interdependent co-origination. 

  • I’m afraid history DOES rather “encourage the thought that” at least some of the “sharp die-off to come” may well “be planned or orderly”.

    Suicide, particularly assisted suicide, should not be casually facilitated, or allowed to occur in a hurried or unconsidered way, for (I hope) obvious reasons; and so there is a need for rational “controls and restrictions”. In circumstances of collapse, of course, such rules may become impracticable.

  • Yet another thing the West is pretty lame at…like nudity and sex and dope.(and economics?)
    I was mildly suicidal for a while…but my inherent tenacity won out, in th end. I have certain criteria for when it’s time to get to the Mountaintop…like an Old Indian Man…a personal DNR, if you will.
    …and I mean Mountaintop literally, as in Disappear into the Wilderness, when I deem the time to be right.
    This is never talked about…we have such a great Fear of death.

  • Terry, thanks for your thoughts. Very thought provoking. You’re quite right that collapse may well be a long drawn out, disorderly affair. I suspect many of us tend to think it will be big, splashy, and all wrapped up right before the credits begin to roll.

    As to suicide, I’ve encountered it quite a bit. Mostly I see the failed attempts since those who are successful usually don’t seek medical care. I’m always intrigued as to why someone thinks that life is worse than death. After hearing some of the stories I want to slap the person across the face and tell them to get over themselves. In other cases, by the end of the story not only do I understand their motivation, but I’m ready to join them. Either way, unless that person receives some sort of mental realignment – forced or otherwise, he or she will try again, and again, and again, until success is achieved.

    I do find attitudes about suicide to be hypocritical. On one hand, taking your own life is considered by many to be the ultimate sin. On the other hand, joining the military during a time of war when your chance of “dying for your country” is pretty high is considered honorable. One serves the interests of the individual. The other serves the interests of the state. Perhaps we can’t help ourselves in this thinking; this idea of the group being more important than any one individual seems to extend back throughout our history and may be linked to genetics.

    I am doubtful though that suicide will increase proportionally to the hardships the human race is encountering. Suicide is a thinking person’s solution. When times get really dire and our very survival is threatened, instinct kicks in and thinking become secondary. Our instinct is to do everything to survive. For example, if someone is bent on suicide but for whatever reason is thwarted in their attempt but then moment’s later the building they are in begins to collapse, my suspicion is that they would do what was necessary to avoid being crushed, even though that would accomplish the very thing they were just attempting. I don’t know of any evidence to support my theory, but it seems intuitive.

    Thanks again Terry for your thought-provoking essay.

  • Its interesting that in some cultures suicide when one has acted badly is considered good form. Japan (Hara-kiri) and Rome (falling on your sword) are of note. Suicide for a cause has attracted some Muslims (we in the west have sent soldiers on suicide missions as well at times). Suicide to avoid capture by the enemy was embraced by the zealots at Masada who in fact made it a murder/suicide as the young were clearly not able to make such a decision for themselves. However in so doing they prevented their children from a certain life of slavery and misery.

    But in the Christian culture is a sin. I suspect that the Christian Church, needing workers to work for the barest of personal return, found that they needed a threat to keep workers from escaping by the one route left to them, death at their own hand. So the threat of eternal punishment in hell was invented. And so the state got used to not only controlling your life but also your death. Thus it makes sense to the state to prevent a prisoner on death row from killing him or herself, so that the state can have that function not the individual.

    Of note, farmers in India have had an increase of suicide. Trapped by debts they cannot pay and failed crops they take their life by drinking the pesticides they have impoverished themselves to buy. I am guessing that their may be a death benefit to the family when the father dies or a release from the debt. If so it would be the last thing the father felt capable of doing for his family.

    In the movie The Grey Zone, one of the Sonderkommandos has put his own wife into the ovens. Unable to deal with that he takes something to kill himself. The Jewish Dr who works with Mengele (to save his own life and his family) is called in by other prisoners and attempts to save him. One prisoner says the man wanted to die, he is going to die soon anyway, and smothers him with a pillow, giving him the death he so desires. The movie is based on a true story about how some of the Sonderkommandos gave up the extra months they had bought by serving the Nazis to blow up some of the crematoriums. They would have died anyway but at least they died feeling they had made up for their betrayal of their own people by an act of sabotage against the enemy.

    Interestingly those places that have allowed Dr. assisted suicide don’t have that many people taking advantage of it “Deaths attributed to Oregon’s law in its first decade totaled 341, an average of 34 a year, with a high of 49 in 2007.”

    Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Oregon-assisted-suicide-at-record-high-1297130.php#ixzz1Rni4jbgF

    Orlov indicates that the people who did poorly post collapse were those males in middle age who were most ideologically invested in Communism. They generally did slow suicide by vodka. I wonder what that says for us. Perhaps the first sign that the end is nigh will be stockbrokers plunging out of tall buildings?

  • Kathy,

    I apologise unreservedly for besmirching your good character and calling your honourable intentions into question. It was inappropriate for me to have done so.

  • Goritsas, that’s OK I understand 🙂

  • A Coward dies a thousand deaths, the Brave die but once.

    If your life sucks so bad that death is a better alternative, i.e. you’ve got Lou Gehrig’s disease, chronic wasting disease, paralyzed, etc, and your life would be nothing but pain and PHYSICAL misery, I totally understand and support your decision.

    If you’re just so much of an abject failure that you can see no other alternative to suicide, you’re the very definition of coward. Godspeed. You don’t need to ingest some poison, cut yourself, shoot yourself, or jump off something high, you died every single morning you found the energy to extricate yourself from whatever pigpile you’re seeping under.

    I personally will not go out like that. When death comes my way, he’d better bring backup because I fully intend to go kicking, biting, scratching, and fighting with a weapon in my hands and a curse on my lips. Fuck death, he ain’t getting me without a fight and I’ll be God damned if he later decides that it just wasn’t worth coming for my hide.

    There is *ALWAYS* another day. It will get better. Happiness and self worth come only from within. *YOU* need to do what makes you happy and nobody else can help you if you don’t help yourself. Get off your couch, get out of your self inflicted solitary confinement, and go learn. It’s what we’re put on this Earth for, after procreation. You seem to be keenly interested in gleaning some knowledge from the people you converse with here, and ostensibly on other websites. Isn’t it about time you went ahead and put some of that into use and went the extra mile to learn MORE?

    I know you don’t care what I think Terry, but I am seriously disappointed in you for even entertaining such a thought. Such cowardice I figured was beneath you. I shall not be surprised by you again amigo.

    When my time is up, Terry, I will go to the happy hunting grounds or whatever awaits. You seem to be dying a little every day.

    Why don’t you stop? Grow a testicle, get off the chemicals, and get the hell on with your life. It’s waiting! Take it by the horns!

  • Thanks for the post Terry. I appreciate the topics that are brought up and discussed here on NBL. Your essay reminded me of the situation the family faced in the book/movie The Road. When collapse comes many of us will face dire consequences and will have to make mind numbing decisions. I’ve always found people make the best decisions when having previous exposure to a potential circumstance. These are tough places to go so thanks again for taking us to one of them.

  • Turboguy, why should you give a big one what anyone else chooses to do about living or dying. Given that the world population has to decline to some sustainable number post collapse, you should be glad if anyone wants to opt out early. Less people you have to kill to stay alive eh?

    Your over the top reaction here and in previous discussions tells me that in fact you are terrified about dying. Terry said “don’t get me wrong. i’m not close to committing suicide” but you choose to act as though even to talk about suicide means he is planning it, a coward, and in need of bigger balls. That is not about Terry. That is not about trying to keep him alive. That is about your own fears.

    Frankly, if the only way I could extend my survival would be to accept you as a protector, I would slit my throat.

    And to Terry I thank you for bringing up this discussion when you well knew that you would get some of these type reactions. That is courage.

  • Goritsas a bit more on the topic of hobbies from the last thread.

    I have a friend whose hobby is whittling. He doesn’t sell anything he whittles, just makes presents of them. It gives him pleasure. However in order to whittle one has to have a sharp knife. He buys the best of knives and the best of stones and hones his knives to shaving sharpness. While this is a hobby, sharpening knives is a very valuable skill post collapse. And instead of whittling figures he may be useful for whittling gears or replacement parts eh?

    Likewise hobby fishermen don’t do it for profit, but in fact they constantly hone their skills at finding fish, casting etc. These skills will be useful even tho post collapse once the fancy gear is gone they may have to adapt to more primitive methods. Still they will be better at it than one who has never fished at all.

    Some women sew for a hobby or knit. Some do hobby weaving and spinning. They may have no thought of those ever being essential skills again, yet they are skills that may well be quite useful. While a hobby knitter might be making fancy sweaters with llama wool yarn today, that does not mean she will not be able to take some fancy sweaters apart and remake them into serviceable ones when the time comes.

    Golf on the other hand seems to do nothing to prepare one for post collapse. 🙂 (maybe someone can be inventive and think of how this skill could be useful)

    So perhaps it is good to find out what hobbies people have and think about how they could be used post collapse – perhaps even implant the idea in their minds that they have a skill that might become useful in hard times.

    I have told my whittling friend that – and he understands as he grew up on a small farm. I am sure come collapse he will make use of what he learned under his father’s hard hand about growing food and raising animals. His kids are taking Tae Kwan Do – I think that may well prove to be useful in the future too (unfortunately).

  • Whether we agree or not with a writer, is not as important as the topic of what we might face and how individuals might deal with it. The range of personalities and backgrounds here gives us all an opportunity to reflect and possibly plan for some of them. Rather than attack each other for our differences, we should be glad for the exposure to even what may seem strange to us, as long as the ideas are sincerely given and clearly stated.

    Judge the premise and argument, not the person.

  • Curtis

    Well stated, and I agree. Let us concentrate on the fundamental merits (if any) of the topic. All of us will likely have views on it – let’s hear them in a non-judgemental way. That is the beauty of this site. It allows such topics to arise. And it allows people to speak their minds and present their perspectives without fear of being called a “coward” or a “wanker” or whatever creative ad hominem a person can come up with.

    TVT

    Thanks for your statement of position. As you know, in many parts of the world and through history the intentional taking of one’s own life was considered, under specified circumstances, most honourable and proper – and in some ways he was considered a coward for not taking his own life. Even today, as Kathy noted, we look with admiration on those who sign up for “suicide missions”. We look on these acts as “sacrifices” or acts of courage when we could justifiably look at them as acts of suicide, plain and simple. There are other circumstances than war where we look at suicide as an honourable act when we protect someone knowing that we will be killed in the process.

    There was a time when honour and dignity were considered on a par with life itself, and rather than suffering dishonour or indignity, one could rightly choose to end his own life. And what is greater indignity than having to live your life under insufferable pain or helpless? Or being deprived of the ability to feed and protect your family as in India where folks often don’t have a choice about how to live – only about how to die.

    “Give me liberty or give me death” was the cry. And many answered that with their own lives.

    Many have chosen the glory of martyrdom over their own lives because the promise of the reward in the afterlife was of greater value than a compromised life.

    There are too many examples to enumerate. It is not an easy subject. Nor is it a simple one.

    We cannot know the pain a person feels whose soul is sucked into a dark vacuum (of their own making or not). And so often such people feel utterly abandoned by a society infused with behavioural norms of stark individualism and self-help beliefs – a society that turns its back when support is most needed. The isolation and the shame of not fitting in is sometimes unbearable for many. It is all too easy to tell such a person to get their head on straight and face life with courage and defiance, but until you have stood in their shoes and breathed their air and known what it is to live a life of social isolation and/or humiliation (in whatever form it might take), you cannot know the depths of their despair, nor the options they see before them.

    Such people do not need to be chastised as much as given a hand, because for such people neither life nor death has honour, and so we as a society cannot without suffering our own dishonour as a people, allow them to suffer such a death. For every such suicide diminishes us as a people and beings shame upon us.

    My opinion only.

  • terry,

    Hmmmm, there’s a lot to think about in this essay. I am reminded of what I read is a tradition in some native societies, particularly the Inuit, where the end of life response is to walk away out into the wilderness. It is seen as the right thing to do in order to lessen the burden on other members of the family in hard life that requires each member to contribute. Compare that with modern industrial civilization’s response of dumping tens, or hundreds, of thousands of dollars into, at best, a few months of the poor quality semi-consciousness that passes for the end of life today. Homestead guru and social activist Scott Nearing lived a high quality life until he was 100 and then, facing greatly decreased abilities, rationally decided that enough was enough; he ended his life by stopping eating. He did not hide what he was doing but rather discussed it with his wife and others, explained his choice, and then acted on it.

    Both the Nearing instance and in the Inuit practice show remarkable courage to me. It seems to be in our nature to fear death and yet some people and cultures face it and embrace it. I don’t know if I will be able to do that but I hope that if I go down fighting, like Turboguy!, it will not be out of fear but rather for the continued celebration of every second of a good, well lived life.

    Thanks, terry, for reminding me of the poem “Do not go gentle into that good night” by Dylan Thomas.

    Michael Irving

  • My friends, I have a master plan to revitalize civilization and begin building the Galactic Empire. But first, we must complete the spiritual revolution begun by Nietzsche. We must dispense with trying to be “the good guys” and turn entirely to the Dark Side.

    The harsh fact of life in this cruel world is that being a good guy “in harmony with nature” gets you nowhere but the slave pens and the hunter-gatherer huts. Man only achieves progress and greatness by violating the cosmic order, by strife and struggle and the Will to Power. What I’m hearing here is nothing but weakness and slave thinking. Search your feelings; you know that what I am saying is the truth. In this dark universe, evil simply wins.

    “Only this have I learned so far, that man needs what is most evil in him for what is best in him – that whatever is his best power and the hardest stone for the highest creator; and that man must become better and more evil.” –Friedrich Nietzsche

    “The nature scientists uncover has crafted our viler impulses into us: in fact, these impulses are a part of the process she uses to create. Lucifer is the dark side of cosmic fecundity, the cutting blade of the sculptor’s knife. Nature does not abhor evil; she embraces it. With it she moved the human world to greater heights of organization, intricacy, and power.” –Howard Bloom, The Lucifer Principle

  • VT: People aren’t sheople. For a good explanation of the complexity and beauty of the average human being in even the worst of circumstances, read The White Hotel, by D.M. Thomas. We all have moments in our lives that will sanctify our deaths.
    I prefer to consider the geological time frame when life gets tough. If you don’t like your life, just wait a moment.

  • I saw a brief dry run for die-off living in the former USSR in the early-mid 90’s. The population was declining by about a million a year for awhile – not including emigration. Very few people were putting a gun to their own heads (but of course, vodka was a lot easier to come by and would eventually do the job). Life expectancy dropped like a stone, especially for men – due in large part to alcohol abuse, poverty and the collapse of the medical system, and young people nearly stopped having children. For the older generation, there was no active suicide necessary, really — all it took was to slack off on the struggle to survive. Cold weather, an untreated medical condition, homelessness or malnutrition, alcohol, or a combination of all could take care of the rest.

  • Turboguy, I dedicate this song to you
    Tom Paxton – “What If, No Matter … ”

  • @Kathy….powerful song and message, thanks for sharing.

  • ‘Man only achieves progress and greatness by violating the cosmic order, by strife and struggle and the Will to Power.’ -sean

    i think that’s the sort of crazy thinking that has got our species into this nightmare. what are u doing at a blog titled ‘nature bats last’, sean? implicit in the title is the view that humans are subordinate to nature, not the other way around.

    In this dark universe, evil simply wins. -sean

    that may be true, which serves as an additional suicide motivator. death is preferable to a perverse/evil life, imo.

    ‘I prefer to consider the geological time frame when life gets tough. If you don’t like your life, just wait a moment.’ -john rember

    in geological time a moment can last much longer than a human lifetime. surreal human lives almost never undergo perceptable momentary change. plus in our particular situation, how does one anticipate positive change while expecting painful traumatic collapse?

    victor, i loved your comment made several hours ago except at the end it became vague/confusing. i look forward to your own featured guest essay hopefully sooner rather than later. if not, your regular comments will suffice, for they are generally supreme.

    michael, mentioning scott nearing’s decision to stop eating resonated here. i’ve known a few elderly sheople who probably would/should have made the same decision once their lives deteriorated drastically from age and/or illness, if social acceptability/support had existed for it. elderly sheople generally lose their appetite both for life and food as time passes them increasingly by and nature takes it’s inevitable course. i imagine it’s a relatively gentle peaceful graceful way to go.

    thanks very much all for the generally supportive encouraging comments.

  • Suicide may be one of the few ways we humans can deprive Nature the honor of “batting last.” (Assuming that one considers humanity and the actions of individual humans separate from Nature.)

  • Victor,

    I know, I know, this is just beating a dead horse, but note the following article (http://counterpunch.org/pollet07112011.html ) which states that Iodine 131 levels in rain water in Boise, Idaho, post-Fukushima, and downwind from where I live, were at 390 pCi/L on March 27 and that levels were at 150 pCi/L in Jacksonville, Florida on March 31. The Drinking Water Standard is just 3 pCi/L! Yes, I know the DWS is projected to cause a 1 in 10,000 increased risk (very small—it’s much more dangerous to drive to the market). I’m just noting that a few people (300+ million) were exposed to high levels while industry and government were telling us everything was okay. You may label this as scaremongering if you wish.

    Michael Irving

  • Terrific interview, Guy. Well done.

    On suicide, this is already happening and I suspect it will gain momentum in due time. At some point, we may find ourselves burying our neighbors who committed suicide out on their deck (which they just refinished) in plain view from the dining nook (nothing fancy, mind you. Just painted poplar with built in seating and a plywood drawer underneath for the linens.)

    In the meantime, the PSYOP battle rages on. There’s refrigerators and tumble dryers to buy!

  • VT, when I was a Hospice Volunteer in our training session they told us that when a cancer patient stopped eating it eased the pain. Hard to convince a grieving family member to look at the cessation of eating as a plus. I watched a neighbor die a somewhat slow death and definitely painful from lung cancer. On daughter became obsessive about her mother eating – counting her mother’s calories and showing me triumphantly when her mother had an increase in calories. So focused on her numbers of calories that she couldn’t see the pain and life weariness in her mother.

  • Guy, I echo JB – great interview. I actually found it by happenstance as YouTube recommended a Max Kaiser program and I needed something to listen to while breaking beans for freezing. Stunned when it hit about minute 13 and you were on. Others who didn’t notice you posted the interview at the top under TV’s essay can find it there. Also at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwxzwnpqE4I&feature=feedu

  • I listened to the Max Keiser report with Mr McPherson . I always watch the Keiserreport and this time I was happy to see a slightly different angle on the current world wide situation .

    I want to make some suggestions to Mr Mc Person and anyone reading this in regards to self sustainable environments.
    1. get water from the air , research the “Ranque Hilsch” and use it as a Atmospheric water generator .
    2. Don’t just use solar panels , use them in combination with a Bedini solar charger and generate 5-10 the energy
    3.use Pyramide’s to grow fruits and vegies and also research “protein OR DNA Music” ,and you can also use colloidal Silver to improve growth and prevent fungi .

    All the above has been proven in independent studies and is fairly cheap to setup and will outperform any self sustainable environment around . casstete@gmail.com

  • As always, an interesting discussion following a thought-provoking essay. I have a blog post from earlier this year that skirts the issue. I can think of few other issues where rational discussion comes unhinged more easily.

    I can’t overlook Turboguy!’s swaggering machismo on this topic:

    I personally will not go out like that. When death comes my way, he’d better bring backup because I fully intend to go kicking, biting, scratching, and fighting with a weapon in my hands and a curse on my lips. Fuck death, he ain’t getting me without a fight and I’ll be God damned if he later decides that it just wasn’t worth coming for my hide.

    Methinks he doth protest too much. Living life with weapons in hand? Kinda defeats the purpose for a lot of us, though I suppose it makes perfect sense to someone whose job it is to fight through life. But rather than recognize that perspective as one of many professional deformations of character, Turboguy! insists with all his furious futility that he’ll fight to and at the end, as though the application of more (turbo!)power (as in Tim Allen’s <Home Improvement) can turn away death, which has always been stalking each of us.

    Personally, I know almost nothing about death. I’d never even seen a dead body until my mother passed away last year. Other members of my immediate and extended family have died, but it still feels remote and somehow unreal. Still, I have observed that some deaths are tragic and others simply aren’t. They are merely conclusions. The manner of that conclusion probably matters, and The Virgin Terry reminds us that some unsavory options might be preferable under some extraordinary conditions, including those we all here anticipate.

  • Just viewed Guy on Max Keiser over here in the UK. Excellent interview, Guy. Our case extremely well articulated. For those of you who did not have the opportunity to see this interview, you may view it at:

  • I’ve lost two family members to suicide — a cousin, who was 19, and my grandmother, who was in her seventies. It’s been a long process for me to come to forgive them, especially my grandmother, who left behind three children, five grandchildren, and several great-grandchildren. I thank Kathy and others here, in part, for helping me understand and ultimately accept the choice they made.

    As a parent, I can foresee few scenarios where I would willingly take my own life — at least as long as my daughter is alive and needs me. I do not fear death, and do not see it as my own personal enemy; but neither will I “go gently into that good night.” At the same time, it is not our place to judge those who take that route. No one knows what another person is going through in their own mind. In some cases, it may be an act of cowardice, perhaps; but I suspect those are an extreme minority. The survival instinct is just too strong in most of us to allow for a casual killing of the physical self.

    Thanks for the essay, tvt.

  • So focused on her numbers of calories that she couldn’t see the pain and life weariness in her mother.

    Kathy

    That is why she did it….it is near unbearable for someone to watch their loved one die slowly. They have to compensate somehow – this was the daughter’s way of handling that pain.

  • You may label this as scaremongering if you wish.

    Michael

    Not scaremongering….just concern on your part….perfectly valid.

  • casstete

    Interesting stuff. I’ll look into that.

  • Victor you wrote “That is why she did it….it is near unbearable for someone to watch their loved one die slowly. They have to compensate somehow – this was the daughter’s way of handling that pain.”

    However much mental pain someone is in, they should not try to relieve it by causing more pain to another. All too often a dying person lingers on because they know that the living don’t want to let them go. Thus they suffer physical pain longer because of the mental pain of the family. Sometimes it is not even the loss of a loved one that is the pain, but the family members own inability to reconcile to the inevitability of death and their own fear of death.

    I did hospice volunteering for 10 years, probably went through the process with 20 different families. Actually many of the families were very accepting of the coming death and were able to release their loved one with grace and dignity that made the process much easier for all. The one I remember most was my first – she was so courageous and helped me learn how to be a good volunteer. The death that had the most impact was a very elderly lady who was in a coma, fed through a stomach tube, tiny and drawn up in the fetal position. Her daughters had her in a bright sunny room and took excellent care but were worn out. One day when I was there to give the main caretaker daughter a break, I talked to her, not knowing if she could hear. I spoke to her belief system not mine, and said “Ms Hattie you can go whenever you want. Your daughters will be OK. Your husband and family that have gone before are waiting for you.” Hospice called me the next day and said she had died that night. I don’t know if I gave her the permission she needed or not, but sometimes a person needs to hear that. Sometimes they keep themselves alive in terrible misery because they don’t want to hurt those who can’t let go.

    My neighbor suffered several extra weeks, trying valiantly to eat when she did not want to, because her daughter could not let go. Letting go is the last gift you can give someone you love.

  • Brutus you wrote “Personally, I know almost nothing about death.”

    Actually we have all had encounters with death – because (dreamless) sleep and being unconscious are virtual deaths. If you have ever been put under general anesthesia for an operation you will note that that shutting off of consciousness is a great blessing. When you wake in the morning, don’t you sometimes wish to go back to sleep, back to being unconscious?

    What bothers us about death is not really the giving up of consciousness but rather the permanence of that condition. We can’t imagine not being. Yet for billions of years we were not. I personally am glad I was not at many points in history, such as say during the inquisition. I do not sit around wishing I was alive all 200,000 years that homo’s have been sapiens.

    Now dying is another matter-it is seldom easy and often nasty and painful and takes quite some time, at least in this age of modern medicine. Besides Hospice I have spent lots of hours volunteering in nursing homes. Lots of people try to avoid ever entering one, abandoning family because it is painful to see, painful to imagine for oneself. One can wish for a nice quick brain aneurysm, but how about a slow decline strapped to a wheelchair with bed sores on your but, not to mention the many ways cancer can kill. Dying is to fear, death is nothingness…

  • Victor,
    RE: casstete
    4. In Brooklyn there is a bridge for sale.

    Michael Irving

  • ‘Virgin Terry reminds us that some unsavory options might be preferable under some extraordinary conditions, including those we all here anticipate.’ -brutus

    what is so unsavory about escaping an unsavory existence in a manner hopefully free of pain/angst (other than saying good bye to this cruel cruel world with it’s undeniable charms)? u make it sound dirty, at least to me, with this poor word choice. other than that, enjoyed your comment, particular the reply to tg!

    ‘it is near unbearable for someone to watch their loved one die slowly. They have to compensate somehow – this was the daughter’s way of handling that pain.’ -victor

    u have a disturbing way of rationalizing disgrace at times imo, victor. my sympathies lie with the surreal victim here, the terminally ill suffering sherson who just wants it over. i do not sympathize with the selfish daughter who inflicts shame and suffering on a loved one simply because her feelings hurt at the thought of irrevocable loss. it’s time for sheople to grow up re. mortality. maybe if we accepted death more, we’d treat each other better in life. certainly this is a case of abuse of a loved one because of a disgraceful denial of death’s ultimate appeal to those who suffer intolerably.

    kathy, i see u already addressed this issue with victor, and i like your sharing of your own rather interesting life experiences and perceptions, like the story about the old woman in a coma u talked about death with. u’re educational/inspirational (but don’t take that to mean u must cling to life a moment longer than necessary to keep your light shining).

  • VT,

    When I was three I got up early on Easter Sunday, ready to look for my Easter Basket. No one else was awake, so I sat on the couch waiting. Some time later my Mother came walking into the living room still in her bathrobe, and was startled to see me up so early. I started to go to her, but she put up a hand and said, “wait, stay here,” and then walked across the room (clearly holding something by her side so I could not see it) and went out the back door.

    That is all I remember. I later learned she used a 22-pistol (she should have talked to Turbo-guy on choice of weapons), and that my grandmother found me screaming at her to wake up and stop bleeding. I’m sort of glad I can’t actually remember that part.

    Even now, 45 years later, every day I still have a voice pop off in my head at random times saying, “Jesus don’t kill mommy.” Funny that.

  • suicide is for quitters, what’s the rush?
    we all die anyway, the ride is up to you.

  • Kathy/Michael

    I simply said that this was a coping device that the daughter used. People deal with pain differently. I never said or implied that it was a harmless or moral one. This is the way the daughter did, at the expense of her mother.

    Don’t put words in my mouth…I have enough trouble with my own words…. 😉

  • By dividing the world into multiple compartments, each with its existence not contingent upon everything else, the system is set up to attempt manipulation and to assign blame. The other way leads to the understanding “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:40).  

    The sense of We can’t imagine not being. arises from the very essence of being, where there is no compartmentalization, and where there is the implicit acknowledgement of interdependent co-origination. 

    Bhagavad Gita 2:12

  • Oops…I meant the message for Kathy and TVT, not Michael! Apologies, Michael.

  • Michael

    Sorry, I bought that bridge last year….not for sale.

  • vt
    thanks for broaching this subject; & to guy for posting your work!

    i don’t understand your reasoning/approach prep-wise. you are assuming a long slow very nasty dieoff/decline/collapse. your choice seems to put you more likely, or perhaps [your way of thinking?]only sooner, to need/want the stance of ‘save one for yourself’; whichever trajectory the collapse takes. plus this looks like a one way bet.

    i have respect for that stance of ending one’s life, as i agree with you & others that there are worse things.

    great interview guy!

    brutus/kathy
    switzer in dynamics of grief says death is the same process as all loss/change in everyday life…i agree. kubler=ross model then applies likewise.

  • You’re day dreaming about death, which most doomers do enough of without being told. I mean that’s how I found this site.. in the course of preparing. You can fight or fold. If you’re ready to fold, I got nothing against you, but as a courtesy, do it out of my sight. And if you sacrifice yourself early to make more room for the animals, insects, and plants of this earth, I salute you for you are better than I.

  • Victor, sorry if it sounded like I was implying that you thought it was a moral choice rather than just informing me of the daughter’s likely reason. Actually I knew what her reason was of course. But I was using your comments as a stepping stone to discuss how selfish that reason seems to me in light of how often it causes pain to the loved one. I didn’t mean to imply anything about you or put words in your mouth. Clearly I need to polish up my posting to avoid misunderstandings 🙂 But sometimes I get so angry at people not understanding that letting go, however painful, can be the greatest act of love and I just spout off. Mea Culpa

  • Navid, thank you for sharing a very powerful personal story. It points out that when one has dependent children one has an obligation to them. This can make choices about your own life not solely your own.

    While I am often frustrated that our unconscious brain can pull tricks on us, sometimes it is clearly a mercy that it does.

  • robin
    By dividing the world into multiple compartments, each with its existence not contingent upon everything else, the system is set up…

    i agree we are a whole. the one belief i still have/hold from religion…perhaps not, perhaps; is theological.

  • Dear the virgin terry, Robin Datta, Guy and members of the NBL Community,

    Thanks for all you are doing. I would like your assistance in the creation of a “teaching moment”…… a community-as-teacher moment. If it pleases you to do so, kindly respond to the following questions.

    Can anyone recall a time in history when so many knowledgeable and capable people displayed so little moral courage in the face of real human-induced challenges or so many of ‘the brightest and best’ were themselves thieves of the highest order, who utterly failed to act responsibly by refusing at every turn to exercise so much as a wisp of moral authority in their efforts to rule the world?

    Do arrogance, cleverness, and greed rule the world absolutely in our time?

    Always,

    Steve

  • “Thorium” was the Question I asked Hansen in Gore New Zealand from the floor. Hansen said it was the best audience he had had (in New Zealand presumably). Alleles that rest on our 30,000 gene loci are 680 million years old in the cascade in getting to us as individuals and that is just the sex part of alleles. Also we have not, H.s.s., completed collecting and arranging our fissionable products on this earth yet. A task for the next 500,000 years. So I too like in one of the safest places on the planet and when the 300km by 3km by 2 km ice torpedos slide off the Antarctica producing waves the size of the Port Hill in Christchurch New Zealand there will go 80% of the world population in one day in the coastal areas. I live in south Waikato where the water will just lap around my feet before running back again. So are you in location location location to see this 24 hour period out and ready with technology ideas for the next 500,000 years. I think Ice age as well as Heist Age (play on the fractional reserve banking fait money system). Here are my policy concentrations. Learn to speak english and be feed. Men need to agree to have one child per life time for the next five generations and women can have as many children as they wish.  I watched you talk on Max Keiser. I like to say I see you needing a friendly comment on your website Guy.  Ask Max to send you a gold and silver coin for his advanced say with you. lol. Ask him for enough to run the currency system of you valley group.

    posted to https://guymcpherson.com/2011/02/extinction-event/#comment-27195

  • VT:

    I only meant that life is short, even in secure and well-fed circumstances. We can wrap our consciousness around eons, but our brains only last for seven or eight decades. Suicide, in the absence of overwhelming suffering, reflects an impatience with the process, and as has been noted above, inflicts great suffering on the closest and most vulnerable and most loving.

    The best phrase about suicide I ever read was that it transfers all the suffering to the broken shoulders of the survivors.

    I still have trouble with you referring to human beings as sheople. A few depth psychologists have said that humans aren’t a herd animal, they’re a horde animal, which is a more complex and interesting creature. Any term that simplifies people toward meat-on-the-hoof also suggests the slaughterhouse. Enough people are moving humanity in that direction without someone of your obvious intelligence using language that helps them out.

    Steve:

    George Orwell’s use of moral authority comes to mind, as does Hanna Arendt’s. I wish either of them were here to provide an example for Rupert Murdoch’s journalists.

    Francis Bacon’s many portraits of Pope Innocent X seem to me to show the destruction of soul caused by great arrogance and great wealth and great power, as does Louis Malle’s film, “Damage.” I think artists are the only ones who have a handle on this–certainly economists and politicians and contemporary journalists don’t.

    I touch on a few tangents to your question in this week’s blog at http://mfainabox.com/blog/truth-beauty-and-justice

  • It’s interesting how concerned society is about those who are left behind when someone commits suicide. I agree that the pain is immense and the state of mind can include bewilderment but it seems to me that we are then missing the point when our focus is on the survivors.The fact that they are still living is a gift and shouldering the suffering is a choice and sometimes a consequence. Either way what is looked at as a selfish act (suicide) becomes a selfish attitude when the focus is placed on those left behind instead of the life of the individual who has left us. I’m not talking about ignoring the survivors, I’m simply stating that we may lose sight of the person and what they contributed and still have to teach us.

  • Well Terry, if you find death preferable to an “evil life”, then I would argue that you have your priorities mixed up. How can an arbitrary sense of morality take precedence over life? That’s some very strange religious thinking!

    Mr. Salmony, here’s a news flash: humans are arrogant, clever, greedy, evil animals; always have been, always will be. This shouldn’t come as a big surprise if you are an atheist, given the nature of the world from which we spring. Hell is a real place, and we are all its children. If there’s one message I would give to every human being on this planet, it is to realize that there is no good or evil, there is only survival and power. Appeals to morality are simply a waste of time.

  • There is a way to liberate all human beings and end all suffering instantly. It is dharma, life of compassion and love, total awareness and attention.

    The imperial empire is our current realization of modern materialism. We are all still suffering, as our conscious of human species is whole and shared by all human beings, the agony, suffering, insecurities etc. Our psyche is far too clever and cunning to be contained, for thousands of years, we have lived in miseries and violence towards ourselves.

    This liberation is beyond knowledge, technology, wisdom and all of the worldly pleasure and sensation. It is an absolute understanding that is wholesome perception, choiceless and utmost freedom and happiness in all senses, both bodily and non-material.

    And this liberation does not need any energy, money or indoctrinations or any of all of the intermediary mediums that man has created and worshipped. It starts with you, individually. It is your thinking, your memories and emotions from conditioning. It is your own pattern of logic that continues all of our own suffering.
    It is the complete understanding of the attention that your perceive as your being, the center of yourself that is the egotistic me. Beyond this state, there is liberation, infinite energy and freedom from birth and death.

    The brain consumes enormous energy in thinking, up to 80 percent of nutrient intake. This is un-necessary energy that is consumed in anilmal electrical production, the electrical processes of neural function, the biological neural chemical production of emotion and feelings.

    But when come upon this understanding that you are the attention, the observer and the analyzer, the center of ego dissolves naturally, without effort or time. Thinking is understood and is removed of attention, your brain idles and releases all energy, huge surge of energy.

    Beyond our physical senses lays non material senses, chakras as some calls. Beyond our thinking lays dharma, infinite energy and wholesome holistic understanding. An enlightenment state of being that allows total liberation from suffering. A state of freedom where we no longer consume lives of other innocent species, may they be mineral or plant earthlings.

    This is an awareness of Oneness where we take nourishment directly from the elements, complete harmony and intercourse with Nature. The next phase of phase of living for our specie, it is effortless and timeless, and it does not cost a thing.

    This is not a fairy tale or fancy superstition. This is fact that is happening this very minute. Beings such as Ram Bomjon title “Dharma Sangha” has made the journey. There is no savior, there is not master or guru, you are the Chosen One. As there awaits utmost truth of life in total liberation, as there awaits deities and devas of non-human species to guide us to eternal happiness.
    So may it be, may all beings be happy.

  • Privileged – very good thoughts that you expressed. I have never seen suicide or withdrawal of treatment as selfish, and have often considered the attempts to keep someone alive who is ready to go quite selfish. But my thoughts often don’t coincide with the general public. 🙂

    Funny, the one thing that seems most to ours, our own life, is chosen for us by others and all too often is taken from us without our consent. In fact we can even be forced to continue living without our consent. And for many people in the world the what happens between life and death happens without their consent.

    The title of one movie about a quadriplegic who wants dialysis stopped so he can die is “Whose Life is it Anyway” which is a rather important question eh?

  • Thank you Kathy for the kind words.

    I am taking up a collection to buy “remote” farmland to lease to amish farmers for 10 cents an acre for life.

    I will not take one cent from this fund- if this fund actually gets started.

    Also, it has been a decade now of cowardice and “enabling” on my part. I am not going to continue to watch my children turn into industrial parasites. Good seeds, bad soil. If my wife and kids decide to stay in the pigstye, that is their choice. but they will have to find someone else to pay for it.

    Goodnight all, sweet dreams ; )

  • Thinking will always create more problems, desire leads to greed. Self belief will enforce conformity upon you’re biological relatives, violence and isolation then follows. A perpertual cycle of suffering for genertions more to come. Your ancestors went through the same miseries, you you want to end it?.

  • Navid

    What are your plans re: your wife and children?

  • Kathy, I’m not surprised by your retorts considering your ridiculous fatalistic stance on everything.

    “Turboguy, why should you give a big one what anyone else chooses to do about living or dying. Given that the world population has to decline to some sustainable number post collapse, you should be glad if anyone wants to opt out early. Less people you have to kill to stay alive eh?”

    No Kathy, I, unlike you, see value in everyone. We’ve all got a role to play and something to give. If you, of all people, don’t see that, I truly pity you. If you’re going to opt out of your responsibilities and eat a Glock, you’ve made the single most selfish and cowardly choice possible.

    And your final sentence is plain silly.

    “Your over the top reaction here and in previous discussions tells me that in fact you are terrified about dying. Terry said “don’t get me wrong. i’m not close to committing suicide” but you choose to act as though even to talk about suicide means he is planning it, a coward, and in need of bigger balls. That is not about Terry. That is not about trying to keep him alive. That is about your own fears.”

    No Kathy, I read his entire essay without taking a position until I was done. When I read his writing about how he’s solitary, how he’d be the first to drink the Kool-Aid if things started looking bad, and his loathing of everyone else as if they’re all “Sheople” I see major mental problems simmering under the surface. Examples:

    “he became alienated and socially isolated early in life as a child-adolescent around the age of 11 in particular, which thereafter had a diminishing/inhibiting effect on his social development.”

    “put him on his present path of solitary self-education and further extreme separation from conventional thought.”

    Extreme separation all right.

    My position on dying has nothing to do with fear, which, however is true, I do fear dying having seen it first hand, but more with my attitude that I’m never going to give up, no matter what. If the big guy in the dark cloak carrying a slingblade wants me, I’m not going easy. I’m not going to let anyone or anything take anything from me, especially my life, and yours, without a fight. Sorry if you don’t like that. If you’re a quitter, more power to you, but don’t give others advice to join you in your pathetic existence. Misery loves company I guess…

    “Frankly, if the only way I could extend my survival would be to accept you as a protector, I would slit my throat.”

    This little gem made me laugh out loud! So because I’m not the kind of person that’s going to roll over and quit when things start looking grim, you’re going to put razor to your neck? I expect better out of you.

    I already do protect you in two ways. Without me and people just like me, your existence would have been snuffed out long ago, and not by your own hands, and probably after a rape and torture. I always find it quite ironic that the people that wish for the system to collapse would be the first to perish horribly without it. Want your special knife or the straight-edge?

    Navid, that’s quite a tale. Condolences. I’ve been on calls where I find children screaming things just like that to bodies that used to be their mommie, daddy, or whathaveyou. Every single time I can only think of how much of a waste and selfish act of cowardice that is. Shit like that hurts you on a level far deeper than anything I’ve ever witnessed.

    I would have recommended your mother use a Nerf gun so you could have had a mother growing up. As I said in my first post, there’s always tomorrow and you really can make it a better day, but only you can. I wish your mother could have seen it that way.

  • I, unlike you, see value in everyone.

    That does not compensate for the willingness to be an agent in the initiation of force. 

    Without me and people just like me, your existence would have been snuffed out long ago,

    That is thinking within the statist box. Within this paradigm – or ecosystem – the law enforcement human livestock are assigned the task of keeping the rest of the human livestock in line. The presumption here is that the human livestock farm is necessary in the first place. A lot of the human livestock will jump to the defense of the farm by advancing arguments from effect, while cringing and shrinking away from any mention of first principles. 

  • Unless you’ve tried it, you won’t know the terrible truth: suicide is just darned funny. My Dad killed himself on his wedding anniversary day, romantic to the bitter end. My Mom tried it, but the neighbors got wind of it and saved her at the last minute. My brother mocked her relentlessly (and still does) for her failure to bring it off. I remember going to the hospital and listening solemnly to the shrink talk about stuff I’d never heard of, stuff about endogenous depression. My Mom just sat there with a vacant expression. I held her hand, feeling guilty about my emotional reaction upon hearing that my Mom had tried to off herself: I was THRILLED. Okay, that’s pretty fucked up right there. But you know what? My brother had a point. If you’re going to kill yourself, for fuck’s sake do it right.

    When it came to my turn, I was undone by my incompetence, or saved to live another day in this madhouse, take your pick. I must have made too much noise as I was tying the noose and hoisting it over the rafter, because this girl Elizabeth came in, took one look, and dissolved into laughter. Then she called the owner of the house, this commune where I was living, and he came in, took one look, and said: “Look at the damage you could have done to my rafter.”

    Yeah, I know what you’re thinking. That last comment is reason enough to want to off yourself. What a world, hey? Worried about his precious rafter. But see, this was no ordinary rafter. This was a damn fine Arts and Crafts house. And I damn near wrecked it.

    Funny coincidence, but I happened to be reading The Savage God, one of the earliest, seminal, works about suicide, when I learned the circumstances of my father’s death.
    I find a strange comfort in thoughts about suicide. Just think: any time, any time at all, whenever you want to, you can check out.

    Next time someone tells you: “You have to.”
    Tell them: “I don’t even have to live.”

  • I’m not going to let anyone or anything take anything from me, especially my life, and yours, without a fight. 

    In a very real sense, we have only temporary custody of all that we have. We only give up the leases to what by convention is deemed “our property”. 

    A lot of suicide attempts are suicidal gestures. I attempted to bring to the attention of the patient the costs to others, from relatives spending hours in the hospital, to the care for other patients being slowed down.

    The most ironic suicides are gestures (e.g. family/friends informed prior to or at the time of the event). But when the patient is informed that the amount and type of pills ingested could be lethal, the attitude changes.  Theophylline in one case and slow release cardiazem in another
    did the trick. 

  • If perishing means long term life for the planet and her species we may no longer need your services.

  • What are you talking about, Robin Datta? My God, but you’re irritating. Buddhist remonstrating and Randroid sermonising. What a combination. Should I just shoot you? I know I want to.

  • Turboguy, a gnostic guy like me, who understands the gnostic response to life, finds your optimism positively evil. Or maybe not evil, but a little bit too much to take. Too much of a misdirection. The most pernicious idea, to my mind, is that there is only one right way to live. Of course, that is not the case. There are lots of different ways to live, all of which make sense to each who has to live, each according to their lights. One light, though the lamps be many.

    As Jung observed, if the truth is ever heard, it will be composed of many voices.

    In a way, your optimism is a kind of weapon designed to beat people over the head. I put it to you that pessimism is a reasonable response to life, that it is quite reasonable to decide that this life isn’t worth living. I am already quite old, and my feeling is that life is too serious to take seriously, and that it hasn’t really been worth it, because I have not been able to be myself without paying a heavy penalty, a penalty so heavy that it is scarcely worth carrying on. Do you understand?

  • What is life?.
    It is not just breathing, knowledge and security. It is beyond that, you were born naked and you will leave all that you hold dear behind when you are breathless. That is how it ha alwways been, you live your whole life in misery and suffering, and so will all of your descendents.

    You speak of gnostic as if it some property that you own, it is a dynamic experience that you live, and if you were close to understanding, you will be ashamed of your own vain and pain, face the reality and the fact that you are the robot, mechanical programmed being.

    Earth is not a property, we are all earthlings. Property ownership is an artificial illusion, we are temporary lesser, and so were the native inhabitants before us. You are the corrupt self destruction system, so why waste your energy on anything, they are just things.

    You are the only valuable thing, the life that you live, so may it be.

  • You all live in fear, and are too coward to face it. You start to see the problem of the world and decide to blame it on on some other beings. You call them imperial empire, military complex, banksters, zionist, elites but they are all of us, they too are suffering in agony, misery and violence. That is how it has always been, it’s a never ending power struggle of our violent animal instinct.

    Wherever you go throughout the world you find suffering. There seems to be no limit to suffering, no end to the innumerable problems that concern man, no way out of his continual conflict with himself and his neighbors. Suffering seems to be ever the common lot of man, and he tries to overcome that suffering through the search for comfort, he thinks that by searching for consolation, by seeking comfort, he will free himself from this continual battle, from his problems of conflict and suffering. And he sets out to discover what will give him the most satisfaction, what will give him the greatest consolation in this continual battle of suffering, and goes from one consolation to another, from one sensation to another, from one satisfaction to another. Thus, through the process of time, he gradually sets up innumerable securities, shelters, to which he runs when he experiences intense suffering.

    It is love and compassion, a state of being that leads to enlghtenment. You can do it yourself, right now.

    You do not need any religion, because you will only worship the medium that is conveying the teaching and get all caught up within the tentacles of the same corrupt system.

    So why wait, it is your thinking that is causing all of these mieries. Let go, inquire into yoursel, find out the true meaning of life, there is so much more that you are missing.

  • That’s great, except for the fact that when I open my eyes from my “state of being” systems of oppression (in which I’m fully included)are still destroying the land base from which we all owe our survival. “My thinking” is love and compassion are part of the answer and the other part requires critical thinking and sacrifice. So as I go through this world suffering I’ll remember that not only am I part of it but also I’ll remember that the car culture, big oil, big ag,and the US military are also my doing as well….after all love and compassion will put a halt to those institutions…right.

  • See the wholesome absudity of it, it is so profane that I dont want anything to do with it, you can not change it nor can any organization. They at the top knows it, so why waste your precious life in vain. It is self destruction, so let it be.

    Prepare yourself for what is to come, only liberation can save you, and you only.

    May all beings be happy.

  • ‘my feeling is that life is too serious to take seriously, and that it hasn’t really been worth it, because I have not been able to be myself without paying a heavy penalty, a penalty so heavy that it is scarcely worth carrying on.’ -martin knight

    i can relate, martin. btw, your tales of suicide above were strange indeed, but unfunny to me. i guess funny’s in the eye of the beholder.

    navid, i don’t know how to respond to your responses to this thread, particularly the one about your mother’s suicide, other than to observe that your participation here is valued, and u come across as a quite sympathetic (likable) individual.

  • Of course you don’t…most don’t…it’s a mountain and those aren’t fun to climb.

  • There is God but not the imgaage that you think. It is the living eternal reality. But this reality cannot be described, each one must realize it for himself.

    Anyone who tries to imagine what God is nothing but seeking an escape, a shelter from the daily routine of misery and conflict.

    You have to be sincere and honest with yourself, love and compassion is not thinking, it is a living experience that you feel in all of your senses and heart.

    You know what thinking is and what attention is, so do it, remove attention from your thinking and allow your brain to idle. Release your energy and inquire, you do not need anyone to teach you, it is as natural as breathing.

  • ‘What are you talking about, Robin Datta? My God, but you’re irritating. Buddhist remonstrating and Randroid sermonising. What a combination. Should I just shoot you? I know I want to.’ -martin knight

    now that was funny. i wouldn’t be surprised if robin chuckled himself at that one. btw, robin, what i wrote above re. navid applies to u also, in spades. u’re impossible to understand sometimes, but that may be due to my limitations, not yours. of course, as u’d say, there is no u and i, only we, right?

  • Turboguy, you missed my point I said “Frankly, if the only way I could extend my survival would be to accept you as a protector, I would slit my throat.”
    You said
    “This little gem made me laugh out loud! So because I’m not the kind of person that’s going to roll over and quit when things start looking grim, you’re going to put razor to your neck? I expect better out of you.”

    The point was, while I am enjoying life now, and can imagine many hard times I could live through (I’ve lived through having the Klan burn crosses on my lawn) the one thing I am sure I would not want to live through is living anywhere near you. My dog, I try to insult you and you can’t even understand that I am saying of all the bad things that might happen, having you as defender would be worse than death?

  • What are you talking about, Robin Datta? My God, but you’re irritating. Buddhist remonstrating and Randroid sermonising. What a combination. Should I just shoot you? I know I want to.

    Those who have not heard of the Advaita (non-dual) Vedanta will speak of it as Buddhism.  Both are Aryan religions, deriving their views from a Sanskritic heritage. however the tradition of non-dualism is found in Judaism in the Kabbalistic view, cf. Sefer Yetzirah Chapter 1 verse 5: “the One without a second”; a person cannot operate on the premiss of an individual existence, since any such existence would be a second.  I am unclear on what constitutes “sermonizing”. 

    The irritation is understandable. Arguments from first principles – such as the non-initiation of force – have no rebuttals from within the realm of first principles these arguments go directly to the core, laying open its moral turpitude.  When that happens to be one’s own moral core, a reaction of this sort is to be expected. One defense is shooting the messenger. 

    there is no u and i, only we, right?

    “We” is another box. 

    There is God

    Diamond Sutra – A New Translation – Chapter 14

    “Most Honored One, having listened to this Sutra, I am able to receive and retain it with faith and understanding. This is not difficult for me, but in ages to come – in the last five hundred years, if there is a person who hears this Sutra, who receives and retains it with faith and understanding, then that person will be a rare one, a person of most remarkable achievement. Such a person will be able to awaken pure faith because they have ceased to cherish any arbitrary notions of their own selfhood, other selves, living beings, or a universal self. Why? Because if they continue to hold onto arbitrary conceptions as to their own selfhood, they will be holding onto something that is non-existent. It is the same with all arbitrary conceptions of other selves, living beings, or a universal self. These are all expressions of non-existent things.”

  • Victor,
    July 12th, 2011 at 11:04 pm

    ?????

    I’m guessing that was not meant for me.

    Michael Irving

  • Oh Kathy, I totally understood your insult, it simply was so silly that it came off as corny, ironic, and foolish in one fell swoop. I chose to laugh your attempt off instead of take you seriously. Deep down, you know the truth: You secretly love me. Go ahead and admit it, it’s my irascible charm isn’t it? (My rugged good looks aside)

    But hey, the Vorpal Blade goes snickety snack, and we all go galumping back!

    All mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe.

    :p

    (I’m still your protector! Neener neener neener!)

  • Holy crap. Look what you started VT. Great thread.

    Steve, I meant to respond earlier.

    Re :”arrogance, cleverness, and greed rule the world absolutely” (h/t Seraph @ TOD for the link, my emphasis added):

    Fame is most important value, psychologists report

    “…“The biggest change occurred from 1997 to 2007, when YouTube, Facebook and Twitter exploded in popularity,” Uhls said. “Their growth parallels the rise in narcissism and the drop in empathy among college students in the United States…Changes we have seen in narcissism and empathy are being reflected on television”

    http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/popular-tv-shows-teach-children-210119.aspx

    I wonder what it would look like if there developed naturally, during this transition, a native american-amish “hybrid” culture. Both contain priceless “proprietary non-industrial knowledge”. It might make Gregor Mendel drool.

  • Robin Datta read a book. Robin Datta speaks about initiation of force (violence), accusing his adversaries of such, but practices it himself. He accuses people who object to his tone of moral turpitude. I put it to Robin Datta that this is a form of violence. Robin Datta has schooled himself in arcana and now wants to browbeat people. I put it to Robin Datta that this is a form of violence. Robin Datta doesn’t speak straight to the heart. He disgorges a cloud of intellectual ink to confuse and disorient. This alone is a smoking gun. Considering how late in the day it is, not speaking directly is dishonest. Is it a form of violence? Maybe. Violence is multifarious. I’m being violent myself with this post. I admit it. What I’ve learned about violence I learned from the estimable Arthur Silber. His blog, Once Upon A Time, taught me all I know about violence.

  • Christopher, re. wife and children. They are very different people than they were 5 years ago.

    Then it was “dad’s garden of dead things” and “dad’s disaster remodeling projects that are never finished.” Now it is mostly (by far)”my wife’s temperate garden paradise.” She is changing and adapting, but I want to pick up the pace. Long story, but I think things will be fine overall.

    Turboguy, Re.: ” As I said in my first post, there’s always tomorrow and you really can make it a better day,.” Yes, agreed, like someone said above (I’m losing track), “wait a day ” – or maybe a few days. Sometimes walls fall just after you check out. Also, Sorry you have to clean up such messes far too often, and thank you for doing so, so I don’t have too.

    Martin Knight – I loved you family story.

    TVT, Thank you very much, and like I said, great thread you started – and thanks to Guy for hosting it. I don’t blame you for any confusion. I’m confused. A long week.

  • Robin Datta read a book.
    Here are a few:
    Freedomain Radio – Free Books

    He accuses people who object to his tone of moral turpitude.

    The “tone” can and should be disregarded. This attempt to distract attention from first principles should also be disregarded.

    A moral principle has to be universal in order to be moral (right or wrong). If not universal, it is a matter of ethics, good or bad. Those who do not subscribe to the universality of non-initiation of force are not objecting to the tone (which falls into the categories of aesthetics, beautiful or ugly): they are objecting to the moral principle. At their core they choose to retain the option to initiate the use of force. It is not possible to defend such a position from first principles. Pointing to their concealed weapon is indeed doing violence to their status quo, and they perceive it as such. However they blame it on “tone” to deflect attention from the moral turpitude.

  • Turboguy, believe it or not I have in mind a person for “protector” should we need and want one. He is strong, an excellent hunter (he hunts on our land using bow and arrow, brings us not only deer and turkey, but also game he hunts elsewhere – shark, feral hog and once he got a 12 foot croc). He reports having a lifetime of ammunition supply – not as a boast, just information. Unlike you he his not a braggart. He wants to care for his family not impress the world with what a tough guy he is. I could see him moving here, us gardening, him hunting, and we have alluded to it from time to time. I know he would shoot to defend his family but I have every reason to believe he would not go crazy about it. I think you are a loose cannon. You certainly are with your mouth.

    While my insult was delivered in a sort of joking manner, in fact I was dead serious about not wanting to be around people like you. I think a community with you in it would be less safe, not because you lack defense skills but because you put self interest ahead of everything. If personal survival is your highest goal, what certainty would any in the community have that you wouldn’t turn on them if need be. Communities will need people who are willing to give their all for the group. That could be risking their life for defense. It could also be old people walking off to die to save the community from feeding them when they can no longer contribute. Around you I would never feel safe.

    Did I mention that our hunter friend is an absolute hunk of a guy. Good thing I am nearly twice his age and think my husband is the finest man in the world.

  • Those who do not subscribe to the universality of non-initiation of force are not objecting to the tone (which falls into the categories of aesthetics, beautiful or ugly): they are objecting to the moral principle.

    Balls. There is no universality regarding the ideal of non-initiation of force. Would you like to stop your plaintive bleating about it now? Instead, what we have, as everyone knows, is each and every government holding a monopoly on force. The reason that governments insist on being the sole arbiters of violence is not because violence doesn’t work, but because it does. And every politician knows that well-directed violence can unseat him. Small wonder, then, that violence is universally deplored. But that is a matter of convenience to those who wield power, rather than a moral doctrine.

    It seems that Robin Datta is a champion of culture. As I learned from Terence McKenna, culture is not your friend. Not only is Robin Datta a champion of culture, but he champions the oppressive quietism of Hinduism, which has proved to be such an effective prison, keeping people as it does in a state of passivity. Perhaps Robin Datta would like to explain why he advocates non-violence like a latter-day Gandhi when what is needed is a well-directed rebellion against those who presume to lead us into a neo-feudalist world order.

  • “Typhoon Ma-on is forecast to strike Japan at about 20:00 GMT on 19 July.Data supplied by theUS Navy and Air Force Joint Typhoon Warning Centersuggest that the point of landfallwill benear32.5 N,133.0 E.Ma-on is expected to bring 1-minute maximum sustained winds to the region of around203 km/h (126 mph).Wind gusts in the area maybeconsiderably higher.”
    http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/typhoon-ma-on-is-forecast-to-strike-japan-at-about-2000-gmt-on-19-july

    While they have weathered typhoons of this strength before, they have not done so when still occupied with dealing with the displaced from the tsunami and the ongoing problems at the nuclear plant. The monumental complexity of the global industrial civilization we live in means that there are more things that can go wrong and more things they effect when they do go wrong.

  • There is no universality regarding the ideal of non-initiation of force.

    Instead, what we have, as everyone knows, is each and every government holding a monopoly on force.

    Just what is expected from those who cannot excise the non-initiation of force from themselves, slinking into arguments from effects (all governments are that way, so it is okay to retain a personal option to initiate the use of force).  These arguments are draped over first principles: because it is not practiced universally, the non-initiation of force has no claim to being a universal principle.

     “Don’t blame me if I refuse to give up the option to initiate the use of force; governments everywhere do it all the time, so I can and should be just as morally degenerate as they are. And don’t call me morally degenerate, since I am no worse than governments!”

  • This place is starting to sound like my family’s Christmas get-togethers when I was growing up.

    Kathy, I fully understand your impression of turboguy – I really do – but I think your impression might not be accurate in this case. I too avoid rambo-types who create far more problems than they solve, but I know a number of both the rambos and Real Professionals, and everything about turboguy’s online persona tells me he is the real deal. He sounds very similar to my take-no-bullshit uncle who served in the thickest of shit as a combat engineer in vietnam, and who has the softest heart and kindest soul you’d ever want to meet, underneath the mental armor he displays in public.

    Robin Data – if you have not, I do hope you will read, “A Different Kind of Luxury: Japanese Lessons in Simple Living and Inner Abundance” ??? I swear you could be one of the people profiled in that book. I suspect that you and the author, Andy Couturier, would be like peas-in-a-pod in a post-collapse community. You could get to know Andy via his web site http://www.theopening.org (I’ve not been to his web site yet). I both love and hate the kinds of topics you frequently discuss.

    Turboguy – re. “that’s quite a tale.” My Mother’s suicide story is the second story I’ve told here where someone responded using the word “tale” – suggesting to me at least some mild skepticism ( a good and reasonable POV for any online forums IMO). The previous time was a story I told of a friend who duct-taped a dead chicken to his god, whom he mistakenly thought had killed that chicken – he later caught a raccoon in the act and out of shame for his treatment of his dog, got drunk and killed the ‘coon slowly with a BB-gun. Ugly but true.

    About my little story above, I do want to point out that my Grandmother insists I did not see my dying mother, and that she prevented it (long story). I know she truly believes her version of events, and I know her version of events is her mind’s way of removing the horror of what she stumbled upon that morning (as Kathy noted, the mind plays tricks – sometimes mercifully to save us from extremely painful memories that could haunt us to death ourselves).

    My son is getting up so now I have to talk to him this morning about learning to forgive himself for his own imagined crimes and misdemeanors – something my Mother could not do. For people like my son and my mother, the harshest judge and jury resides in their own minds.

    good day all.

  • he champions the oppressive quietism of Hinduism,.

    Someone is unacquainted with the Thuggees from which is derived the English word thug.

  • Just what is expected from those who cannot excise the non-initiation of force from themselves, slinking into arguments from effects (all governments are that way, so it is okay to retain a personal option to initiate the use of force).

    I think I just wet myself at this lazy, Dravidian-inspired-but-hopelessly-misplaced-cultural-superior-complex attitudanalizing.

  • Martin Knight,

    If you’re not a troll, you should be. Your fun. Hope you’ve got a good supply of carcasses. If you keep up the good work, you’re going to need more than one dead horse to beat.

  • Martin Knight –

    I got into this (re: violence) with Robin Datta a while back, with the exact same results. In the time since then I have enjoyed some of what he has to say regarding the ongoing catastrophe that is industrial civilization. Unfortunately, what he continues to fail to understand, is that at every moment, in every breath we take, violence is being enacted against us by governments, citizens, corporations, etc; it’s in the air we breathe, the food we eat, and in the water we drink. He waxes on and on about the non-initiation of force to no end, ignoring the fact that it is undeniable that at every moment we are under attack from this ecocidal culture. Responding to this attack in whatever way one chooses is just. Once force is initiated against you by the cultural-monopoly-holders-of-violence responding in a similar manner is only self-defense, which Robin continues to paint as some failure of moral mannerisms by labeling it “the initiation of force.” Dogmatic, unthinking pacifism only protects the State, and not its subjects. Gandhi wasn’t shit without Bhagat Singh. MLK Jr. wouldn’t have been MLK Jr. without the Black Panthers. Just another pacifist trying to claim the moral high ground by attempting to own the debate over the appropriate response to injurious treatment by those more powerful than us. As DJ says, we need it all; It would be great if the pacifists would learn to tolerate the obvious need for the diversity of tactics required to begin to disassemble the ecocidal infrastructure of industrial civilization. Sit-ins are NOT going to cut it. Until that happens, I am trying to ignore their self-assigned status as usurpers of moral truth, sometimes successfully, sometimes (like now) not.

  • Navid, I meant nor implied no skepticism in my reply to you.

    It’s good that do not remember what happened with absolute clarity. The brain is an amazing thing and to carry scars like that around throughout your life into adulthood would be quite a cross to bear.

    Many times that I’ve seen a parent take their life and the child either witnesses it or the aftermath the poor child assigns self blame for the act. They then spend a lifetime trying to figure out what they did to make their parent do that to themself.

    Kathy, at what point that I’ve posted here have I foisted my own self interest in front of others? I personally have dedicated my life to service and go out of my way to take care of others.

    I can’t physically protect you, constraints of distance being what they are, but I can point out how valuable someone like you are to those around them. You have a skillset that most do not, and hopefully my focus on you will pull you away from many of your fatalistic rants. They’re self destructive, plain and simple, just as much as accepting suicide is. It’s why you’re my favorite person to pick on. If me being a heel to you gives you a reason to see self worth in yourself: So be it.

    Well, that and the fact that it stirs your oatmeal when I talk about my rugged good looks and all around manliness. If I can’t get you to roll your eyes at least once per post, my work is incomplete.

  • Political Suicide

    It is becoming more and more likely that the Tea Party will force the Republican Party to committ political suicide.I’ve commented on this before.We should not be suprised.Tea Party members have always made it
    crystal clear that they will not vote to increse the US debt limit,but they were not believed.

    It has been assumed by everyone but them that they would change their minds,but this assumption is wrong.If you understand the Tea Party,tnen
    their intentions become clear.They are unwavering fanatics–such people
    never change their minds.

    The destruction of Industrial Civilization takes many forms.The syndrome
    is wide spread. The excesses of the system are simply unsustainable.The US government must borrow 40% of everything they spend.It should be obvious that there is a limit,and that limit has been reached.

    When the piper finally must be paid,the GOP will not,because it cannot,
    allow the debt ceiling to be raised.The Tea Party has the votes to make
    this a certainty.Its called internecine death.

    Double D

  • Turboguy,

    Re: Self interest

    “I’m not going to let anyone or anything take anything from me, especially my life, and yours, without a fight.”

    Would this be an example?

    Michael Irving

  • Turbo, when hungry hordes come to your doorstep what to do. Your and yours will die sooner if you let in more than your community land can support, and certainly if you let in the halt and the lame. From previous posts when I said I would rather take in all comers and die sooner, you protested. Sounds to me like you will bar not only the armed invaders but the unarmed needy for the sake of your own. But then what to do if those on the inside, those that watched the hungry turned away, begin to run short. Do you then finally say “we go down together?” I find it likely that the circle of who is “in” gets smaller for you and those you feel say are not carrying their part of the load move from “in” to “out”.

    If I came hungry to your door and you didn’t know it was me would you take me in if you didn’t have enough for your own community. If you did know it was me but you had babies inside starving would you take me in. If you did know it was me, but I had become injured, capable of very little work would you take me in?

    You might say yes now but the tone of all you have said over time says “no that would be stupid, I want me and mine to survive”.

    I hope I will have to courage to accept an earlier end and take in anyone and share while we have it and starve together when we run out.

    If I sound fatalistic it is because I know it all ends in death no matter what, and how your live your life is more important to me than how long I live.

    Ozymandias – Percy Bysshe Shelley

    I met a traveller from an antique land
    Who said: “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
    And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
    And on the pedestal these words appear:
    `My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
    Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!’
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
    The lone and level sands stretch far away”.

  • Turboguy,

    “the child either witnesses it or the aftermath the poor child assigns self blame for the act. They then spend a lifetime trying to figure out what they did to make their parent do that to themself.”

    Roger that in spades – I could not have said it better, nor could have a trained psychologist.

    ———

    OT. I apologize first because I’ve been told this song has already been overplayed on the radio. But I just recently heard it for the first time, so please excuse me.

    It’s just that this song strikes me as a “Lullaby” currently being sung for Industrial Homo sapiens sapiens by Mother Nature/(Lady Gaia ?) – note I am assuming at least a few non-industrial homo sapiens sapiens will not hear this song, they might squeak through this transition.

    If life is growing all over the universe like the weeds in my parts of our garden, I think Mother Nature has been and will continue to sing this song over and over and over again to most of the intelligent forms that arise.

    Out of all of the intelligent forms of life in the universe, one, or a few, Might survive this universe, and make onto the next one, or into another one (e.g.multiverses). Trillions will fail, and hear this lullaby, just like most if not all of our industrial peoples (this also might apply to intelligent life that forms in other universes as well?).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb-7jByiRUY

    (video version with the very interesting lyrics to go along with the powerful, beautiful voice)

  • I think I just wet myself at this lazy, Dravidian-inspired-but-hopelessly-misplaced-cultural-superior-complex attitudanalizing.

    Any port in a storm. 

    Unfortunately, what he continues to fail to understand, is that at every moment, in every breath we take, violence is being enacted against us by governments, citizens, corporations, etc; it’s in the air we breathe, the food we eat, and in the water we drink.

    Actually all of this is valid. However it does not follow that a claim to universal rectitude for a moral principle is invalid because that principle is not applied universally. 

    Arguments from effect lead deeper into the thicket of effects: a plethora of moral justifications for one group against another can be mustered instantly: Native Americans vs. “immigrants”, black vs. white, European vs. African/Asian, cowboys vs. Indians. A quick resort to history covers all these and more. Any party can find justification for actions another by venturing deep enough into that thicket. 

    Just another pacifist trying to claim the moral high ground

    Only those who fall short make any gesture towards “claiming” the “moral high ground””. Anything akin to a moral high ground the perception of others rather than something one claims for oneself.

  • Thanks, Pickle. Jesus. What can I say? Thanks. After reading your comment I don’t feel so alone.