The 2012 India Blackouts: A Great Example of How our Education System and Media Coverage are Leaving us in the Dark

by Pepper Givens

This summer, hundreds of millions of residents in India endured two days of stalled productivity, traffic jams and pretty much chaos as the country endured back-to-back power outages. Suffering the largest blackout in the planet’s history, the country went dark and, while the world noticed, no one seemed to really understand why — or at least the mainstream media made no attempt to delve into it.

They, rather, covered the devastation and lost company time that came with the territory. They documented stopped traffic and citywide collapse, but when it came to the root of the problem were next to silent. Do you think anyone from the general public could give a thorough, educated reason for the events — most likely not. Sure, specialists in the field who know what to look for, but what about the average Joe? Well, with the current media and educational systems we have in place, it’s no surprise the answer is no.

To clue those of you in who might not know where I’m going with this, the cause of these massive outages was a combination of things — a bad system setup, high demand and out-of-whack temperatures caused by a climate that is a bit off track all because of global warming. Sure, the Indian electrical system is challenged on a regular basis as it tries to pump energy throughout the veins of such a large population — that’s nothing new — but factor in the intense heat and extreme conditions the country as a whole was battling because of missed monsoons and you have the recipe for disaster.

But, as I already suggested, the blackout itself is not the problem here. The problem is the lackadaisical approach so much of the world seems to be having toward this ever-growing issue of climate change and environmental stress. Educators, leaders, policy-makers and of course, “talking heads” alike are, for most part all side-stepping the tough issues and rather distracting with other problems.

Granted, there are the select few who seek to spread awareness and knowledge, but the overwhelming majority does their part to silence them, for whatever reason. Perhaps they just don’t want to deal with it and are in a state of denial; perhaps there’s some ulterior motive involved (although I’m pretty sure we all lose when it comes to dramatic climate change); perhaps they are just at a loss and struggling to buy themselves sometime while they look for an answer. Whatever it is, the current approach is pathetic at best, leaving the world with nothing but a bunch of ignorant consumers who “know not what they do.”

But seriously, how many of you give the issue of climate change a second thought? What about over consumption of resources? While the people reading this blog might consider these issues, think of the other billions of people on the planet. A good deal of them would look at you like you were speaking a foreign language if you delved into the ins and outs of the scientific issues, and that’s a problem.

Our system of awareness and education needs to improve for our children, students, businesses and families. This is especially true when talking about something such as electricity — a luxury most of the developed world enjoys and utilizes throughout their days. People need to stop being kept in the dark about the issues that could potentially affect their future on this planet. The more we know, the more we can work toward positive, effective change that makes difference.

So, yes, the rolling blackouts throughout India are a great example of how our planet’s responding to extreme environmental issues. We need to start taking notice and action to ensure we prevent something even larger from happening. In these situations, the best defense you can have is knowledge and information, so let’s stop depriving our public of that, deal?

In an ideal world, it would be just that simple.


Pepper Givens is a freelance blogger and webmaster who commonly writes for Pepper welcomes your questions, comments, and any other kind of feedback you’d like to offer.

Comments 182

  • If you think zen buddhism is about entertaining movies or tv shows, I think you have some misunderstanding, even more of a misapprehension than your earlier connection of ‘One flew over the cuckoo’s nest’ to buddhist non-attachment.

  • Back to electricity outages….

    Can we not live with the very strong likelihood that electricity will become less reliable at some stage in the near future?

    If so would it not be smart and prudent to clearly look at what we each ‘need’, or while it flow normally, what we ‘need’. and also what we will do without it now?
    I use the reasoning that if I live with much less dependence on domestic electricity, without factoring in the embedded electricity in every other product or service I use, then if it stops, then the change will be less disruptive.

    That is a little ingenuous, really, because it will not ever be a small disruption, especially with the street chaos it will create, but it may just be that I,(or anyone) who has self inflicted this kind of challenge, or discipline if you like, will have gone through the early stages of electricity deprivation by then, and may have found ways to adapt when it really goes.

    On nights like tonight with high winds coming up the valley and over our ridge line, we can get outages from downed trees etc. I have 15 driveway solar lights ready as emergency night lights for the house.

    Kids can get scared in such situations, and candles are not particularly safe, and cost too. I have acquired most of my solar lamps from putting up signs in the region for old and unwanted ones.
    No harm, no cost, and put to a good use for now.

    I just turn them upside down after removing the spike from the bottom.

  • Mb – you wrote “Failure of the electricity grids is not an extinction level event, by any means.”

    I disagree – it is not just about comforts. If the whole US grid, Canada and Mexico went down, no more gasoline would be pumped as that requires electricity. (is any country building up a supply of hand pumps?) Not only would no more food be shipped to cities but no more fuel would be shipped for running the backups to nuclear power plants cooling systems. Although the plants would shut down automatically, the fuel still needs to be cooled and the fuel in the spent fuel pools needs to be cooled or we have Fukushima for 104 plants in the US, plus 17 in Canada and 2 in Mexico. Hospitals would shut down. No tractors or harvesting machines would be able to get fuel. I haven’t seen that a herd of draft animals is being built up, nor a non-electrical plant to make hand plows and all the extra shovels folks are going to need. Most people will not have seeds or the knowledge to plant them. And of course all pumping of water will cease so only folks with hand pumps (me) or living in walking distance to a water source will be able to get water. All refrigeration will end without people having cold cellars already in place. No water and sewage plants shut down its going to get smelly and germy for people quick except those who have a humanure set up (me). I wouldn’t expect to live long after the grids went down but I might live long enough to see how it plays out – of course with radios, internet down I won’t know what is going on in the outside world. So until someone takes me out, I starve, or I take me out I have a 1 years supply of candles and a bunch of books I wouldn’t mind reading again. See how preparation can make the road to extinction a bit less rocky? Unfortunately I can stock up 1 years supply of bananas – is life worth living without bananas? :)

    Worldwide shut down of all the grids has the same effect except now we are talking 440 nuclear plants going Fukushima – but these Fukushimas won’t have anyone able to do anything to contain them. No more oil will be pumped. No more shipments as the ships can’t get fuel, and no fleet of sailing ships is being built.

    While this might not bring total extinction, it will come close. This has been discussed before in NBL but I think it was before you started posting – I don’t know how long you have been reading. Here is one article which I have posted before
    Solar flares or EMP attack could do the job before fuel runs out for the grid. Solar flares have been more active of late and a Carrington type solar event is always possible since it happened before in I think 1859.

  • MB in this essay Guy discusses 3 paths to near-term human extinction

    Three paths to near-term human extinction

    One is nuclear meltdown – he writes
    “We’re headed for extinction via nuclear meltdown
    Safely shuttering a nuclear power plant requires a decade or two of careful planning. Far sooner, we’ll complete the ongoing collapse of the industrial economy. This is a source of my nuclear nightmares.
    When the world’s 442 nuclear power plants melt down catastrophically, we’ve entered an extinction event. Think clusterfukushima, times 400. Ionizing radiation could, and probably will, destroy every terrestrial organism and, therefore, every marine and freshwater organism. That, by the way, includes the most unique, special, intelligent animal on Earth.”

  • TRDH,

    I too am spending a lot of time thinking about what to feed the chickens. As many here have noted my choice of using the garden as my lifeboat is probably stupid, “one well placed shot from hiding”, but there is no way to practice being a nomad in North America pre-collapse. As you do, a person can have goats. Still, you have to feed them until the conditions get bad enough to allow/warrant cutting loose from the homestead. When is that time? What markers do we have to tell us that “today!” is the day to abandon our homes and strike out into the forest. Speaking of ‘into the forest’ that is the title of a very good book by that title (“Into the Forest” by Jean Hegland—–I recommend it). It is a gut wrenching look at the slide down into collapse, first person, through they eyes of one of two sisters.

    You and I, and many others here are working hard every day to learn the things we need to if we are to function through the many small steps on the way down.

    Michael Irving

  • thanx for the empathetic reply, judy, to my post of yesterday. ulvfugl (where did this name come from and what does it mean?), i thougtht r.d. gave me about as good a response as he could have to the question of attachment. it makes sense to limit attachment in a world of transience. btw, i’m male, not female.

  • the name translates as ‘wolfbird’ in Norwegian.

    RD gave you a response re non-attachment ? Did I miss it ? What was it ?

  • I’m re-reading “Oryx and Crake” by Margaret Atwood, because I find new insights every time. Last night, on page 223 of the hard cover edition, I found the characters saying this:

    “Let’s suppose for the sake of argument,” said Crake one evening, “that civilization as we know it gets destroyed. Want some popcorn?”

    “Is that real butter?” said Jimmy.

    “Nothing but the best at Watson-Crick,” said Crake. “Once it’s flattened, it could never be rebuilt.”

    “Because why? Got any salt?”

    “Because all the available surface metals have already been mined,” said Crake. “Without which, no iron age, no bronze age, no age of steel, and all the rest of it. There’s metals farther down, but the advanced technology we need for extracting those would have been obliterated.”

    “It could be put back together,” said Jimmy, chewing. It was so long since he’d tasted popcorn this good. “They’d still have the instructions.”

    “Actually, not, said Crake. “It’s not like the wheel, it’s too complex now. Suppose the instructions survived, suppose there were any people left with the knowledge to read them. Those people would be few and far between, and they wouldn’t have the tools. Remember, no electricity. Then once those people died, that would be it. They’d have no apprentices, they’d have no successors. Want a beer?”

    “Is it cold?”

    “All it takes,” said Crake, “is the elimination of one generation. One generation of anything. Beetles, trees, microbes, scientists, speakers of French, whatever. Break the link in time between one generation and the next, and it’s game over forever.”


    My mouth fell open at that point. There are objections to be made here, but I think the point stands.

    BC Nurse Prof

    “I think my karma just ran over your dogma.”

  • TVT:
    There is a book that I found helpful:
    The Mind of Clover: Essays in Zen Buddhist Ethics by Robert Aitken

    Aitken’s introduction to Zen began as a Japanese prisoner-of-war, and he went on to be recognised as a Zen master.

    In the book he describes the significance if the Eight Grave Precepts (not stealing, not killing, not lying, etc.) to society. However he ties it all together with a very basic idea.

    Clover does its thing naturally: it acts in an appropriate manner by just growing. Humans also could be like clover, but with a mind: they would act in a manner appropriate to humans. Like clover, humans would also have likes and dislikes, but again like clover, would be non-attached to such likes and dislikes. 

    And when a person gets it, the person gets it all. The many qualities ascribed to such persons all bud and blossom together. Some of them are:

    Non-anticipation: (in the sense of  attraction) for future outcomes. 

    Fearlessness: (in the sense of aversion) for future outcomes. 

    Equanimity: equipoise in the face of all vicissitudes. 

    Absence of sense of agency: no perception that “I am the one who is doing such and such”. 

    Gentleness: in thought, word and deed. 

    Awareness: including awareness of being the unconditioned source of the conditioned awareness. 

    Sense of eternal: of the unconditioned awareness. 

    There are many other descriptors, which can be found in the Vedantic and Buddhist traditions. 

  • BC Nurse Prof,

    Orxy and Crake is a great (and horrible) book in so many ways. Thanks for the quote. It was like a slap upalongside the head. One generation—–so true.

    Michael Irving

  • BC Nurse Prof,

    PS: I recommended “Into the Forest” by Jean Hegland to TRDH. You might like it too(for its writing–the message is not pleasant).
    Michael Irving

  • Thanks for posting the Transhuman link, MB. I watched a few minutes. I’m familiar with how those people think. They make me feel ill. I remember one of them arguing the case and saying it would remove all cruelty from the world. When asked how, they replied that they’d genetically re-engineer all living creatures so that they didn’t need to kill anything else.
    I think that’s totally insane. I share Theodore Kaczynski’s take on technology.

  • Robin, re the ‘getting it all at once’. That’s Zen. That’s not classical buddhism and the Noble Eightfold Path. There’s a vast difference.

  • MB, yeah those damn nuclear plants. I think it didn’t hit most people until Fukushima, although we should have known it all along. It didn’t hit me until months after Fukushima. The interconnections are where the hidden problems lay and sometimes we don’t see them until something happens. I remember after Iceland’s Eyjafjallajökull erupted that I learned that this could shut down air traffic. Days later I learned about fish rotting in airports and farmers in Africa unable to sell their cut flowers to Europe. Those are much smaller but still point to the fact that there are in the famous words of Rumsfeld “unknown unknowns” in terms of how one event might snowball. In the economic world letters of credit are not well known but absolutely essential for world trade – in 2008 they almost failed and had they done so industrial civ would have been brought to their knees. I had never heard of them until 2008.

  • Robin, re the ‘getting it all at once’. That’s Zen. That’s not classical buddhism and the Noble Eightfold Path. There’s a vast difference.

    There is a difference between getting it all (as in all descriptors,pari passu) and getting it all at once (as in “instantaneously”).

    The differences between  Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana are in their approaches. They all profess the same goal, à la Siddhartha Gautama. And that is where all the descriptors apply simultaneously – to be distinguished from instantaneously. 

  • BC nurse – thanks I just ordered “Oryx and Crake”

  • And then from my source for dire health news thanks to Crofs H5N1 blog this bit of news that may be just an attempt to get funds or may be a real warning of things to come.
    DR Congo: Ebola could “soon be a global emergency”
    Via Ebola in DRC: it may “soon be a global emergency”. Excerpt from a Google translation, slightly edited:
    The UN has launched an appeal for two million dollars to fight the epidemic of Ebola hemorrhagic fever, a highly contagious disease that has killed 14 people since mid-August in the northeast of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).
    The World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Fund for Children (UNICEF) launched a “joint appeal for funds to support this struggle which totaled $ 2 million,” Dr. Léodegal Bazira, WHO Representative in the DRC told the media on Wednesday.
    “We also call on all partners to join in the fight against this epidemic, which if not controlled quickly, is a public health emergency that can quickly be global,” he said.

  • Ok, Robin, but why I argue, as that my earlier point was that ‘non-attachment’, does not make sense, out of the context of the Eightfold Path. I agree ( if what you are saying ) that aspects all of Eightfold Path have equal value, and belong together as a bundle.

    As I see it, the early classical buddhist way, was to spend your life working your way through that Path, which provided both a cultural map for soceity, and an individual religious or philosophical quest.

    But zen, having amalgamated much of Taoism, is a different animal, and as you’ll know, there are many also varieties of zen. As I see it, Gautama was a Hindu, taking up the much older traditions of yoga and meditation. What he contributed was the rigorous philosophical analysis of the problem of suffering. My opinion, non-attachment comes about as a fruit of Right Meditation. To talk about it outside the context of the Eightfold Path doesn’t make much sense to me.

  • Thanks for the Ted K. link, MB, glad you agree with me, I’m already more familiar than most with the story, but I’ll try to find time to watch it later.

  • “Mount Fuji ‘under more pressure than last eruption’ September 6, 2012 Pressure in the magma chamber of Japan’s Mount Fuji is now higher than it was the last time the volcano erupted more than 300 years ago, scientists say, according to a report Thursday.”

    Read more at:

    Gotta keep things interesting.

  • Ed,

    That sounds like a really good start on the hugelkulture so it seems like if it was as effective as some claim you would be less dependent on irrigation. The theory is that the roots extend to the vicinity of the wood and are able to get at the water trapped in the wood when it is slowly released (osmosis) into the soil.

    Moving water is a problem, hence the search of alternative methods. Speaking of which, I have made a stab at the buried clay pot idea, although I used a method developed in India using buried (vertical) plastic pipe on my spuds last year. I made spuds but a gopher got most of them under a layer of mulch before I noticed what was happening.

    Re: water—–Have you tried the book “Gardening When It Counts (Growing food in hard times) by Steve Solomon? His approach is the opposite of French Intensive. It is meant to emulate the pre-electricity kind of gardening/farming, widely spaced plants/clean cultivation.

    Michael Irving

  • So much to add! Ted Kaczynski has a lot of fans. Here’s an excellent article from the Chronicle of Higher Education on him and his manifesto:

    A brilliant man who came to his wit’s end and decided the only way to get people to read his work was to murder someone. He’s still trying to get people to see what’s happening under their noses.

    Steve Solomon’s book is called “Gardening When it Counts”

    and it’s one of my most-used references on gardening. He lives in Tasmania now, and maintains that he’s becoming a hermit. I can relate.

    His sad rhetoric on the state of the planet reminds me of what I read here.

    Ebola, yes, this was bound to happen. If you read the 1995 book by Laurie Garrett called “The Coming Plague” you’ll read the story of Ebola and the “disease cowboys” of the CDC. Might be heros, might be fools, might be idiots. Idiots with Ph.D.’s. A more gripping tale you’ll never find. Everything Laurie Garrett said in that book is on the brink now. It may be the most frightening thing you’ve ever read.

    Michael Irving: Thanks for recommending “Into the Forest” by Jean Hegland. I’ll go get it. I won’t mind if it’s depressing. So was “The Road” and I managed to get through that. “The Coming Plague” is scarier by far.

    Want inspiration? Try “Animal, Vegetable, Miracle” by Barbara Kingsolver. It made me cry, but then, I’m a mother, too.

  • I agree ( if what you are saying ) that aspects all of Eightfold Path have equal value, and belong together as a bundle.

    The descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones are not a bundle, they flow from each other. If there is one, there are all the others. No comment was made about the Eightfold Path.

    My opinion, non-attachment comes about as a fruit of Right Meditation

    Right Meditation is a path to non-attachment, and, depending on their experience and understanding, some may feel that it is the only path. Non-attachment is one of the descriptors of the characteristics of enlightened ones. None of the descriptors is present without all the others.

  • Robin Datta, thank you for your information about cutting and pasting to notepad. I think that what I did was close my browser window before I sent the comment. My losing my post is a rare occurrence for me.

  • BC Nurse, I just ordered the coming plague – getting my reading options well stocked thanks to you.

    A book about what life would be like after an EMP attack on the US is “One Second After” not great literature and a number of flaws including not having the nuclear plants go Fukushima, but all in all a rather good idea of what might happen and how people might behave if the grid goes down.

    Spoiler alert – they do eat the dog in the end.

    Also The Last Policeman about earth with an asteroid heading straight to it, nothing can be done and impact is in six months. A different scenario than One Second After so how people act is quite different.

  • TVT, I meant what I said, and I’m sure you know it. Your comment about empathy means you understand where I’m coming from.

  • Robin Datta, thank you for your information about cutting and pasting to notepad.
    Copying rather than cutting will leave it in notepad until it is online. Also using Undo will undo the last action in Windows Notepad – it will undo the cutting if that was the last action.

  • Dear Robin,

    Again I thank you for your instruction.

  • “I agree ( if what you are saying ) that aspects all of Eightfold Path have equal value, and belong together as a bundle.

    The descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones are not a bundle, they flow from each other. If there is one, there are all the others. No comment was made about the Eightfold Path.

    My opinion, non-attachment comes about as a fruit of Right Meditation

    Right Meditation is a path to non-attachment, and, depending on their experience and understanding, some may feel that it is the only path. Non-attachment is one of the descriptors of the characteristics of enlightened ones. None of the descriptors is present without all the others.”

    Well, thanks for that reply, Robin, but I must say that we appear to be speaking straight past one another.
    As I understand it, there’s an obligation in buddhism, that if someone asks you a question about buddhism, you give them a clear answer, explaining on the level that they can comprehend, so that they understand.

    If I can still recall accurately, T V T asked you something along the lines of whether loving the Earth is attachment, and whether attachment is positive and natural and so forth.

    Quite how you arrive at “descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones” I do not know. But anyway, who cares about ‘descriptors of the charecteristics of the enlightened ones’, what ordinary folk seek is practical, applicable answers to the problems they encounter in their everyday existence, explained in useful, accessible terms, not opaque theological word salad.

    Anyway, as we don’t seem to be getting anywhere constructive, I’ll drop the matter, unless you wish to pursue it further.

  • As I understand it, there’s an obligation in buddhism, that if someone asks you a question about buddhism, you give them a clear answer, explaining on the level that they can comprehend, so that they understand.

    My reply was tailored to TVT’s query. 

    TVT’s response to my reply:

    i thougtht r.d. gave me about as good a response as he could have to the question of attachment. it makes sense to limit attachment in a world of transience.

  • I am extremely hostile to industrial civilization, but sorry, cannot muster sympathy for Kaczynski, one of his mail bombs went through the office at which my then-wife was working in, wounded a Cal professor who was the (rather arbitrary) target.

    Rebels Against the Future by Kirkpatrick Sale is by the way an excellent book on the original luddites and their relevancy to the present, still timely though it came out 18 years ago.

  • Okay, Robin, so if I take it that you and TVT are satisfied on that matter, then I’d like to address a question to you on my own behalf, if I may. It is this :

    If there are two things, x and y, and a posited relationship between them, designated as variable… i.e. varying in degree of attachment/non-attachment…

    Then substitute yourself, or Buddha, or anyone, or ‘a human’ for x, and substitute ‘other’, or ‘world’, or Earth, or biosphere, or ‘life’, or ‘my brother, sister, son, daughter, wife, husband, lover…’ for y

    Then what should be the quality of relationship between x and y ?

    Should it be attachment, or non-attachment ? Passionate delight ? Hostile abuse ? How might it best be described and applied ?

    I think you could answer from your own personal, individual perspective, or from what you deem to be buddhist, or other, orthodox teaching, or indeed some other perspective, or you could refer me to someone else’s thinking on the topic. Or, please feel free to ignore my question, you’re not obliged to present any answer at all :-)

    I have in mind that the Buddha was once questioned by a follower, concerning the intense suffering resulting from rejection by a very beautiful woman whom he was passionately in love with. If I remember the story correctly, the Buddha’s instruction was to meditate and visualize the woman as a rotting corpse upon a charnel ground.

  • “…sorry, cannot muster sympathy for Kaczynski”

    Jeff S., I don’t think it is necessary to have sympathy for Ted K. to be able to find useful ideas in his analysis of technology, etc. I mean the two things are easily distinguishable, aren’t they ? Lots of good books have been written by very unpleasant people, havn’t they ? Obama blows up innocent people with drones, etc, almost every day of the week, and yet millions think he’s really great, a nice guy. Lots of really nice, gentle charming people can’t even spell ‘technology’, let alone analyse our relationship with it and what that does to the Earth. There’s quite a lot of things that Ted K. has said that I strongly reject, and i don’t think of him as a martyr, or a hero, or a maniac, or anything like that. I found his careful inspection of technology and where it is taking us, to be extremely interesting and useful, much of it derives from J. Ellul, of course, who is also an interesting author.

    I find the blind faith that most people have in technology as dreadful, totally horrifying. It’s an ideology, a religion. An eminent UK scientist, Susan Greenfield, who I believe holds an position at Oxford making her responsible for educating the public re science, or some such thing, said recently that technology is neutral, that ‘we’ are in charge, and ‘we’ chose the technology we want, which is patently absurd, a kindergarten level of insight, none of us get any say in whether we want drones hovering outside our houses, or satellites photographing us, or nanoparticles in products we buy, or fracking for gas, etc, etc, etc. There’s no democratic accountability, no choice, no responsibility, nobody is in charge or control. Very few people question it at all.

  • Possibly worse:
    Paul Beckwith, B.Eng, M.Sc. (Physics), Ph. D. student (Climatology) and
    Part-time Professor, University of Ottawa

    The loss of Arctic sea ice appears to be flattening out at the moment. The above image shows Arctic sea ice extent (total area of at least 15% ice concentration) for the last 7 years, compared to the average 1972-2011, as calculated by the Polar View team at the University of Bremen, Germany.

    However, Paul Beckwith warns that Hurricane Leslie looks set to capture Hurricane Michael just off the Canadian maritimes and strongly impact Nova Scotia and Newfoundland (large hurricane), to then continue northward and start to affect Arctic climate by compressing isobars creating large pressure gradients and thus high winds.

    Paul points at the image below, from, showing a 9 day GFSx model for Arctic region.

    The model shows that an Arctic cyclone is amplified as a result of Leslie and a strong high pressure ridge is also generated over the Beaufort Sea. As the Arctic cyclone decreases in strength a strong cyclone is generated over Alaska.

    “Needless to say this scenario would be very destructive to Arctic sea ice if it plays out,” Paul adds. “Also, there is no apparent decrease in Arctic sea surface temperatures in projections out to September 12th, and no apparent salinity change. I will be amazed if this melt season does not last until the end of September or even into early October.”

  • Morocco Bama:
    “and yet, I don’t see any evidence that Cal is considered a pariah by you, and the majority of other tenured professors the country, and world over. So, I don’t buy the sympathy line. That’s a canard, and ridiculously ironic, considering, not to mention, intellectually dishonest, because its implication is to thwart inquiry in pursuit of greater understanding.”

    Loose with the truth here. On what basis do you conclude that i’m tenured professor, or ever was? Or that my ex ever was? And WTF do you conclude that i think Cal is OK? I was for several decades an academic wage worker for the university, i.e. did the work of the professors at a fraction of their pay. My ex was a clerk. Yeah, Cal is part of the military-industrial complex, and the corporate complex in general. The entire US economic system is, alright? Enough with this holier-than-thou stuff.

    Cal has designed every nuclear weapon in the US arsenal, via Lawrence Livermore. The various departments do research for both the US government and the corporate monster, stuff like “smart dust,” tiny dust-particle-size computers that can float around and spy on people, stuff like GMOs, stuff like training corporate cogs.

    I held a job so i could pay for my survival needs, the very structure of capitalist society forces people into wage slavery for survival. This job enabled me to survive while affording me opportunities for sedition and subversion, by bringing up topics such as eco-destruction or the actual material facts behind capitalism or military applications during discussion of math problems that prepare people for wage work as engineers, physicists, chemists. For the most part, it didn’t make much of an impact, though one never knows, i hope i threw in some monkey wrenches into the conditioning machinery. I’m now retired, and glad of it, nowadays i can rarely stand to be even around campus, it’s so repulsive. But in this, Cal differs little from any other campus, or indeed any other workplace.

  • Morocco Bama

    Hey how can you get to posting I have broken some golden rule about not getting personal with you. as a NBL poster, and then go gunning for Jeff S’s ex-wife concerning who, or what quasi military contractor/ collaborator she once worked for?

    I’m just about convinced you are a spoiler agent trying to steer the discussion on this website to some other purpose.

    If such a case were so, getting everyone to run their ideas by your filter is the first main objective, which you are close to achieving, nothing personal in that, just my opinion. You are free to agree or not agre….blah blah blah.

    I have no way of knowing if you are a spoiler agent, working for a clear vested interest, but I suggest you don’t break your own rules, (not mine) dished out to other posters, otherwise you will become redundant and you will just simply not be responded to.

    I reccommend reading, or rereading, ‘The Celestine Prophecy’ for a rundown on how to deal with hypocritical controllers.

    I wish it were different, and I wish to acknowledge an otherwise solid contribution on your part to attempting to get others to think very far beyond single issues, and single bits of the puzzles we toy with here, however, you have lost me as an interested party.
    As I just wrote, I wish it were otherwise.

    I can’t censor you, just be silent.


    I have found the series ‘James Bourke Connections’ to be pretty interesting so far, after 2 x 45 min episodes.

    Originally posted for the discussion on electricity dependency I think, but it ranges far and wide into technology dependency. Worth the time IMO.

  • Exhortations to do this:

    ‘Like I said, I can’t recommend that K——i doc enough. There are so many avenues of inquiry that can spin off from it, and it is ultimately much more than just K——i.

    Take H—z v– F——r, for example. You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary. The interview is fascinating, and opens up so many channels of thought and areas of research and inquiry, it’s mind boggling’…

    Are interesting to me.

    I could go and search these people, and download the K——-i document, but then there would be a record of ot stored somewhere for many years, linked to my name and social security number, in that new facility that stores information for future searches, and it could be used as a pretext in a post patriot act America to constitute as an act of planning t—–ism.

    I don’t intend to search these things, but just thought many may like to know.

  • OzMan

    If you want anonymity on the internet use Firefox browser and install Tor.

    Given the involvement of the US military in its inception, could be designed to make you feel safe when you are not. Depends how paranoid you want to be.

  • What an interesting turn to this discussion !

    I just love the smell of paranoia in the morning :-)

    Jeff’s comment links back to something I was wanting to say about the buddhist Eightfold Path, and getting it as one bundle. It might be relatively easy to find Right Thought, Right Effort, Right Meditation, etc, but when it comes to Right Livelihood, things get tricky in this modern Western soceity, where almost every means of making a living is basically unethical.

    Money is the tool that the System uses to control everyone. ‘Either fit into the machine or fuck of and die’. Someone tested pound notes, – or was it dollar bills ? probably both – for traces of cocaine, and an amazingly high percentage were positive ( I forget the figure ) but if you think about it, every UK sterling pound is stained with invisible blood, going back centuries…

    I was never able to compromise, as Jeff describes, and fit into an unethical job. Means I’ve been very poor, hungry, cold, and that’s not easy to endure. We all have to make that choice. Security from being part of Leviathan, a zek, or insecurity and living on your wits, on the outside. Ted K. could have still been living in his shack, on rabbits and vegetables, if he had not had that silly idea to kill people. Now he has security and comfort inside the Max, but no freedom…

    I watched half of the Ted K so far, I’ll watch the rest later. I watched the von Foerster guy. I’m familiar with Maturana and Varela and autopoesis. Trouble is, cybernetics is so reductionist. Everyone is doing this all the time, trying to explain ‘us’, on the level of genes, or neurochemistry, or as a machine, or whatever. I insist that’s a mistake. I am a HUMAN BEING :-) I have a capacity for free will, nobility, dignity, grace. My soul, or my spirit, or buddhanature, or whatever you want to call your inner being, is a hell of lot more than genes or neurochemistry or a machine or cybernetics… it contains the whole Universe, is one way of putting it… made out of star stuff, gazing back at the stars…

    It’s true, on one level, I am an animal, but then how do people view animals ? As the superb, astounding, beautiful things they really are, or is it a term of condescension that diminishes them and us ? If a giraffe or a seal or a lion is beautiful, then so am I. I’m not willing to be put into a box, and confined by someone else’s ignorant small-minded squalid DISgraceful conception, definition, of what a human being is.

  • ulvfugl

    It’s not paranoia if they are really out to get you. Ha. Sorry, just had to pull that old chestnut out of my pocket.

    Regarding the trace-ability of internet contacts I simply work on the princilpe that if it’s a home or business account it can be time and date stamped back to you. If that is too secure for the real workings of the System well and good. I’ll be damned if I’ll get encouraged into searching a known, and convicted terorist, from my home computer.

    With the unknown unknowns in the modern world, a little use of the bullshit detector is in order. My detector went close to the edge of the scale, but then it is my detector I’m admitting.

    Anyhoo, your words:

    ‘when it comes to Right Livelihood, things get tricky in this modern Western soceity, where almost every means of making a living is basically unethical…Money is the tool that the System uses to control everyone. ‘Either fit into the machine or fuck of and die’’

    deserve further comment.

    I recall some History of Europe TV program years ago positing soverign coins were used to create an economic system so it could be taxed in movable capital, not just cumbersome pigs, or wheat, or wood. Laws of money were made to serve the soverign and perhaps the ruling nobility. I’m not sure if it was a win win for them both or a bit of a continual battle for what we now call hegemony, or dominance.

    However, money is a comodity of power to the degree people comply with it. If two people decide to swap anything, or even just give and receive anything, be it food, water, medical service, roofing iron or music, without using a currency exchange then there is the opportunity to have a direct ethical interchange. If more people enter the circle then there is a network, with no unfairness, no ethical exploitations and moral uncertainty. Of course if we exchange items and to some degree experience and knowledge acquired form capitalist pathways we can be accused of neglecting that preexisting inequality, or unethical origins of our earlier possession of the item or skill or knowledge.

    I think this kind of secondary problem is also an opportunity, on a personal scale, to correct the earlier unethical situation, by using these items and knowledge for free, as a gift, to assist others with their ‘needs’. Granted it may not work well on a big scale, but I ask everyone, what is working on a big scale? I am not a Buddhist, however the Buddhist precepts are crikey good to look at and develop some perspective from.

    BTW the Kung Fu teacher was teaching it as a form of street defence, especially for women, and not as a form of aggression.

    I once was taught Wing Chung Kung Fu by a very Western looking guy, who was a Buddhist, and he never handle the money we paid him. He would just ask us to put it on a small spot on a bench. He had a young female assistant, (no evidence of hanky panky there), and he asked her to put the money in a pouch somewhere out of sight. I thought of the problems he must have encountered in diong all that, but it struck me that he was asking for the money, and the distinction between that and handling the money seemed not very consistant. I’m not bagging the guy, just attempting to assess the merits of the choices he seem to have.

    It is my understanding that traditional Buddhist ethics as practiced in the East was that practitioners relied exclusively on public donations of all human needs, water, food, clothing, housing and services like medical etc. If the greater culture did not support their way of life then it would not flousish. A kind of spiritual Darwinism in a wierd kind of way.

    IMO Money has a very short time to live now. Just when it is obselete, is hard to know.

    Animals are beautiful, even the ugly ones.

  • Back to the introduced topic – Jeff Masters has written a good piece on how a massive solar flare could leave us gridless
    In a congressional study a solution was proposed that might cost $150 million. Has congress done anything about that – NO

    “The strong electric currents that would flow through the the electrical grid during a repeat of the Carrington event are likely to cause melting and burn-through of large-amperage copper windings and leads in electrical transformers. These multi-ton, multi-million dollar devices generally cannot be repaired in the field, and if damaged in this manner, they need to be replaced with new units. There are only a handful of spares in reserve, so most of the region affected by the collapse would remain without power until new transformers could be custom built. …Manufacturers presently have a backlog of nearly 3 years for all EHV transformers (230 kV and above). The earliest delivery time presently quoted for a new order is early 2011.”

    So Nature has many way to handle its term at bat and may hit us with several at the same time. Nature will win as it is nature whether a dead lifeless planet or a human inhabited rich ecosphere. We will loose. Too bad for us. Time to figure out how to use whatever remaining time we have before personal or species extinction does us in.

  • With thanks to Pepper Givens and Jennifer Hartley, I’ve posted a new essay. It’s the third in a series by Jennifer about home-schooling, and it’s here.

  • Ozman, I look at anything I want to look at. Fuck ’em all. And if the PTB want to follow me around on the internet, or surveill me in any other way, good luck to them, they might learn something to raise them out of their wretched, depraved, benighted condition.

    I know what’s wrong and what’s right and I’m not going to permit fear to become internalised as a censor. If ‘they’ want to, they can frame or assassinate anyone they wish. They do it all the time, everyday. It’s their job. It has nothing to do with what’s right or what’s wrong, or what’s lawful or illegal, it’s merely a means of terrorising the population. Like hanging dead crows on a fence to frighten the live crows away from the crop.

    Personally, I’m not willing to be terrorised by anybody. I live my life on my terms. It was exactly the same pattern in ancient Sparta, the Spartans subjugated and enslaved the Mycenaeans, and kept them in abject fear by random violence and brutality.

    Have you read ( any ) David Graeber ? He’s the only person with a decent understanding of the way money works. Almost everyone else just repeats the same stupid dogma that’s been in the textbooks for a hundred years and more, most of which was consciously designed to prevent the masses from understanding what money is and how it works.

    I say to everyone, just imagine for a few minutes how your view, the way you feel, would change, if your existence was not defined by financial constraints. There’s absolutely no reason why it needs to be. The fact that it is, and has been all of your lives, means that the shackles on your wrists and ankles are invisible, and you’ve worn them so long you don’t even notice them at all, it’s just ‘normal’.

    Money is a con trick, and you’ve ALL been fooled.

  • Don’t see the connection there, MB. But anyway…

  • And a couple more…

    and if you don’t know what that’s about, here’s the context, in 8 minutes…

  • Perhaps you do work for some Intelligence Agency, MB. Or perhaps Ozman does. Or perhaps I do. UK environmentalist groups were infiltrated by Special Branch police, slept with the girls, had babies with them, went on for years. It’s plain and obvious that all and any radical groups are monitored. It’s in the public domain.
    ‘They’ like to neutralise them early, before they catch on with a big following, or else manipulate them for their own ends. Police continually disguise themselves as anarchists and provoke violence and destruction, so they can blame the real anarchists, and say to their employers that they need more funds to fight ‘the threat’. Riots here in Manchester the police were supplying the rioters with molotov cocktails, milk crates full out of the backs of vans, to foment the riots.

    Mark Kennedy, Bob Lambert, that sort of crap has been going on for centuries

    Everybody has to decide for themselves who they trust, believe, have confidence in. And then how paranoid they want to be. Depends a bit on how much you have to lose.
    I’m old, I don’t give a fuck. I say whatever I want, to anyone, anywhere. I live an honourable life, I can look myself in the eye, unlike all those cowardly two-faced scum who spy and deceive their friends, wives, children, for filthy money.

    What other people do is up to them.

    Have you read Machievelli ?

  • I wouldn’t say it is quite that simple. Yes, Lambert and Kennedy are scum, filth, vermin, in my estimation. But spying and assassination are as old as civilisation, and no doubt everyone who has ever done it has justified it to themselves one way or another. I’m a believer in Right Livelihood, and spending your precious lifetime doing something shameful, which you can’t speak about, that contributes nothing worthwhile, is a disgrace and a waste, IMO.

    However, in the broad sweep of history, perhaps there have been occasions where it could be considered honourable and courageous. Thing is, it’s usually used by ‘us’ against ‘them’, and both sides see themselves as being morally justified. Who are the good guys, who are the bad guys ?

    I’m not in an ‘us’ v. ‘them’ situation. I’m on the side of the biosphere. Anybody helping forests, or fighting for sea life, like Sea Shepherd, or working in conservation, etc, is my ally. My enemy is all the idiots who are mindlessly trashing the planet.

    I suppose I could respect an opponent who fights from a genuine deep belief, but most of them are just the ‘banality of evil’ types, who do it because they can’t think of anything better to do, and it gives them a wage. I despise them. They mostly don’t even realize that the very people who employ them also despise them. They’re just useful and expendable fools, manipulated by money and propaganda, to do stuff that’s not even in their interests. House niggers, Malcolm X would call them.

  • MB:
    “(quoting OzMan)’Hey how can you get to posting I have broken some golden rule about not getting personal with you. as a NBL poster, and then go gunning for Jeff S’s ex-wife concerning who, or what quasi military contractor/ collaborator she once worked for?’

    He brought it up. I was addressing what he brought up to support his sympathy angle. I appreciate his elaborating on what he brought up, but the sympathy comment he made is still a canard.”

    She was working as a goddamn clerk. For that it was OK to have her be killed or injured in a blast? Just because of where she was working? How different is that from drones killing civilians while targeting “terrorists”? Where would it not be OK to do that, under your framework? EVERYTHING is linked to the military/corporate complex, directly or indirectly. Your “logic” is noted in its absence.

  • Every village needs its idiots…

  • I’m sympathetic towards that argument, Jeff S. I can’t think of any justification for Ted K. killing innocent people, except that he wanted to get his manifesto published, and widely read, which is what happened. But then, presumably, he thought that would change history, which it didn’t appear to do.

    But times change. I wonder how long it will be before people realise that their own, and their children’s, futures are in peril because of the behaviour of a relatively small number of individuals, and then take action based upon the principle of self defence ? Perhaps they’ll just accept their fate, like the jews getting on the trains to the gas chambers ? or perhaps they’ll decide to fight back ?

  • Revolution, she believes, simmers on in Latin America, where the gulf between rich and poor is escalating and she blames, as Che did, creeping American-led industrialisation. “This economic crisis is even more dangerous than any before for Latin America. It’s not only about oil now, the US want water too. Brazil is destroying its rainforest to mine out iron, Mexico is a dumping ground for unwanted waste. This time the land is being destroyed as well.”

    Critics of Che claim the photogenic young man in battle fatigues who wrote poetry overshadows the brutality of his revolution. Guevara showed no qualms about killing. “It was a revolution,” says his daughter. “Of course, I would rather there was no bloodshed but that is the nature of revolution. In a true revolution you have to get what you want by force. An enemy who doesn’t want to give you what you want? Maybe you have to take it. My father knew the risk he took with his own life.

  • ulvfugl

    Your points about independence of thought and action with the internet are excellent and I have no problem with that view. I wish to state, however, I have not censored myself out of fear, I have just made a line call, and it is not worth it to me to get set up. The ideas of K——-i and others I perhaps would find interesting, but not so there is a record.

    Have any of you seen the movie ‘Enemy of the State’? If not have a look. It is not the case that anyone in the Intellegence, or Organised Crime groups has anyone targeted at present.

    It is simply that if at any stage you are identified as a player in any civil and or ‘rebellious’ protests, (which untill the 9/eleven events were a civil right), or any action that can be considdered a real threat, then your whole recorded life can be reviewed and used to grant an arrest warrent by a sympathetic judge, and then its all over red rover.

    I am not afraid to do these things, just don’t see the need to be caught in a very obvious ‘web'(pun intended), because I don’t need to prove my inalienable right to know everything and stick my fingers up to authority figures. I believe I am past that now. It is very empowering to say and do these things, but I can just go to an internet cafe and look them up at some future time.

    We each see our independent view in our own way. After reading Kafka’s ‘The Trial’, Solzhenitsyn’s, ‘A day in the Live of Ivan Denisovich’, Orwell’s ‘1984’and ‘Animal Farm’, I am under no illusions about the powers of modern states. I dont’t worry about these things, but I see no need to be hot headed and indignant on my right to know stuff, if its possibly part of a process that can be turned against me or others if I/we become involved in legitimate civil protests, which will need to happen down this rocky path we are on.

    So just because I advise caution and am not following the leader, does not mean it is out of fear. Wisdom is its own master. I would not criticise anyone who holds a different view to mine on this, because it is their own call, not mine.

  • I totally reject your arrogant claim that i have no idea what’s behind TK’s actions, MB. I was around for the show, after all. In fact, the FBI came to my workplace and “interviewed” me about it, to see if i had any idea who “the Unabomber” might be. I was part of a long debate about the anti-tech perspective, of which John Zerzan was an originator, writing in the Fifth Estate as far back as the ’80s. Its clear that you assign people all sorts of positions without knowing a thing about where they actually stand.

  • Yes, Ozman, each one of us has to make their own individual judgement and estimation. That I fully accept. Personally, I don’t give a fuck. I’ve read all those books you mention.
    I say whatever I want to say, openly, to everyone alive. I think that it’s highly likely that this little window of free speech will be closed, because all states, corporate power, authority in every form, fears freedom of speech and wants to censor. They’re in a difficult position. They need the open commons of the internet, for all their marketing and publicity, kinda like the main street in a town, to get trade and customers, but at the same time they don’t want people gathering and discussing and telling the truth about all the deception and abuse that goes on. It’s an arms race, between the hackers who want open source internet tools that permit free communication, and all the vested interests who want to restrict as much as they can. I hope the more enlightened younger generation who are more tech savvy will win, but who can tell ?

    Yes, Jeff S., I’m familiar with Zerzan and Fifth Estate and all that stuff. So, where does it go from here ?

  • One doesn’t need any mind control experiments if he/she is a student at UC Berkeley, especially a grad student. The entire curriculum is one massive mind control program.

    And given my participation in the milieu which led to TK, i can tell you, MB, that your demand that i watch the documentary, as if that’s some sort of an acid test, is ridiculous.

  • Okay, I finally got through to the end of the Dammbeck video. There wasn’t anything I didn’t know already, but it was interesting to have my memory refreshed.

    The impression I retain, is that every character interviewed was utterly obnoxious and repugnant, I’m so grateful not to have to spend time with any of those people. Not a single one that I found likable in any way.

    Putting that aside, the overview as to how people’s ideas about reality and technology have developed over recent decades is very interesting.

    MB, whether your niggles re Jeff and Ozman have merit, or not, it seems to me that Jeff’s direct firsthand experience is also interesting and relevant, and I’d like to hear more of how he views things.

    So, where next ? I suppose I must click on that hoffman link, and get myself branded as a potential terrorist sympathiser on some stinking CIA/NASA database, eh ? :-)
    Fuck ’em, and all their stupid nasty infantile power games.

  • Ok, I read the Hoffman stuff. That’s too wacky for my taste. Doesn’t add anything useful. It’s too easy to do that sort of thing to absolutely any story, connecting dots by connections that don’t have any substance other than in the author’s imagination.

    I agree with him, US media is pitiful and never does proper investigative journalism anymore. I agree with him, that this constantly repeated theme of ‘the single lone nut’, followed by a ‘trial by media’ conclusive verdict, which often doesn’t explain or fit with the evidence, is suggestive of hidden proceedings which never become clear.

    But there we are. A person could devote all of their life to Roswell, or Kennedy assassinations, or 9/11, or whatever, many seem to, but I have other priorities.

  • Interesting podcast

    Peter Lumsdaine is outreach coordinator of Alliance to Resist Robotic Warfare and Society. Drones are tip of of much larger iceburg that is what we believe is a looming robotic, biotec, nanotec age that’s coming at us, of more and more sophisticated & autonomous machines and synthetic organisms. More than 50 countries posess drones. His organization’s goal is to empower people to understand and educate ourselves and others to develop strategies of effective resistance.

  • related to above

    “Killer drones just keep getting smaller. The Army wants to know how prepared its defense-industry partners are to build what it calls a “Lethal Miniature Aerial Munition System.” It’s for when the Army needs someone dead from up to six miles away in 30 minutes or less.
    How small will the new mini-drone be? The Army’s less concerned about size than it is about the drone’s weight, according to a recent pre-solicitation for businesses potentially interested in building the thing. The whole system — drone, warhead and launch device — has to weigh under five pounds. An operator should be able to carry the future Lethal Miniature Aerial Munition System, already given the acronym LMAMS in a backpack and be able to set it up to fly within two minutes.”

  • Morocco Bama

    For the sake of discussion; you wrote, in defence of your-online-here-character:

    ‘None of that is leading, so I would say, if you think it is, perhaps you should take another look at your perspective for potential blemishes.’

    Well you could have fooled me….

    What about here?…

    ‘Like I said, I can’t recommend that K——i doc enough. There are so many avenues of inquiry that can spin off from it, and it is ultimately much more than just K——i.

    Take H—-z v– F—–r, for example. You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary. The interview is fascinating, and opens up so many channels of thought and areas of research and inquiry, it’s mind boggling’…

    Well if exhortations are as far as one can go I can’t think of a better one…

    Once more for emphasis:

    ‘You have to watch the interview with him, and then investigate him further beyond the documentary.’

    Oh maybe here…

    ‘You would agree then, ulvfugl, that those who are Intelligence Services, are scum, wouldn’t you?’

    Now if you want to start getting someone in the Int—–ce services pissed off at you, then go follow the leader.

    Face it Morocco Bama, you are a dominator, albeit an intellegent and courteous one.

    As for this chestnut:

    “He brought it up.”

    Back to the schoolyard… ‘he hit me first’, plea.
    You are better than that, far better…

    However, in the intrest of getting along with you, I apologise if I overstepped the mark on implying you were well nigh an agent of some sort. That would blow my top if it were true, and it would be very surreal.

    It is simply not as interesting to be competed with in this space, when what is good about it is a democracy of ideas, and of course an angst at the plight of the planet.

    You have considderable perspicacity and that is a highly needed characteristic in these times, so I hope you can forgive me for the insinuation.
    I would rather collaborate than put you off, but perhaps it is too late for fence mending.

  • ANYTHING that you do is ‘suspicious activity’ as far as the authorities are concerned. I mean, ‘the people’ are their enemy….

    You also might not want to store your zombie apocalypse preparedness kits at Storage Facilities, since the following are but a few allegedly suspicious behaviors and activities that “should” be reported:

    Using cash to pay rental fees in advance.
    Failing to pay rent for a storage unit in a timely manner.
    Discarding clothing or shoes in new condition.
    Entering and leaving storage facility at unusual times.
    Avoiding contact with rental facility personnel.

  • Nothing “rabbit hole” about 9/11, it was an inside job, simple.

  • “You only serve “their” purposes…”

    So I’m wondering who, in your opinion, ‘they’, are, and what ‘purposes’ ?

    and I’m wondering what “The basic unconscious goal of immolation …” means ?

  • “I try not to use that term because it is somewhat ambiguous..”

    Well, you used it, and that’s why I asked, ambiguity, if YOU don’t know who the ‘they’ you’re mentioning are, how can I possibly know ( what you’re talking about ) ?

    I don’t see the egregore concept as anything like as weird and occultish as you appear to infer, something that can be ‘summoned’. I think of it as a bunch of individual human egos that get aligned by some emotive concept and so produce a larger collective, just like individual cows might all panic into a stampede. Yes, they are out of control and go over a cliff, or, if someone has the charisma to lead, they’ll follow, like rats and children, after the Rattenfänger von Hameln, Bob Geldof and Live Aid, Peter the Hermit, Children’s Crusade, etc.

    So, the American people get a shock, a trauma, that upsets them, they ask who ? why ? and the ‘charismatic leaders’ supply ‘answers’, to manipulate the egregor, the herd, and once those answers are accepted and integrated into the national story, the national myth, they are ‘believed’…. even when they are obviously impossible and untrue to anyone capable of critical thought and assessment. And so it goes….

    People are capable of believing almost anything. Actually, that’s not correct, the ‘almost’ is redundant. People are capable of believing ANYTHING. That’s why science, as a project, was so remarkable, don’t believe ANYTHING, only accept what can be measured, tested, repeated, empirically demonstrated, etc.. But like all good projects, it gets fucked up and corrupted by lust for power, stupidity and insanity…. sigh… :-) Did you ever watch The Trap ?

  • MB:
    “It’s now becoming much clearer for me, Jeff S. I’m making the cross sign as I type, yes, I know that’s a physical impossibility, so the cross is being made in my mind, and I have stakes and garlic ready for back-up. May I dare say you consider yourself a “Truther”? Whilst I acknowledge the Official Version of 911 is bullshit, and not the truth, I would never be so bold as to say what is the truth, nor would I be so myopic that I would use it as a litmus test in all things thereafter. It simply is yet another deception in a long list of deceptions, and doesn’t warrant an organization dedicated to it in perpetuity. Your efforts are misplaced. You’re attacking symptoms, not the cause. It’s healthy to ask questions, and research further, but to remain obsessed with one single event that manifests from the Death Star, is foolhardy and unhealthy, and doesn’t even get to the heart of all THIS.

    And, how ironic that you would believe the same System that pulled off 9/11 would never have the temerity to pull off Unabomber. That’s the Truther mentality I’ve run across, though, most of the time. Everything is 9/11. Any other event that “just doesn’t add up” can’t hold a candle to 9/11, and is even a threat to 9/11′s cache.

    I’ve seen Truthers consistently attack Chomsky and label him a Zionist because he doesn’t acknowledge 9/11 as an inside job, and has asserted it really doesn’t matter when you consider his thesis. He’s more to the root of the matter than the Truthers, imo. He’s not all the way there, because he’s all for Civilization, but at least he gets closer to the heart of how the System operates.”

    I reject the label “truther” which is a creation of sites such as Screw Loose Change, whose purpose is to uphold the official story. As someone with a degree in mechanical engineering, i’d say that anyone who accepts the official story is engaging in blatant lying in the face of the laws of physics. And Chomsky not only does not acknowledge “inside job.” he has consistently attacked any efforts to question the official story, in particular the physical evidence. He has even tried to explain the vast discrepancy between the official explanation of what happened to the THREE WTC towers and the laws of physics by appealing to quantum theory and chaos theory, asserting that anything can happen any time.
    I do not consider him a “Zionist” for this, merely a disinformation purveyor.

    I have no idea where you get the notion that i don’t think the system could pull off Unabomber. Can you point out where i said so, or else apologize?!

    9/11 is the organizing myth behind the current version of the official ideology. It is the justification for the police state and for one war after another. I’m amazed that you can treat it as if it was just another event.

  • “Do you pop muscle relaxers before you reply? I was referring to the term “Inside Job”. Quit being obtuse. Cut the shit. What are your thoughts about 9/11? What was it all about, in your opinion? Is it what the 9/11 Commission said it was? Instead of cherry picking what I say, tell us what you think about it. I assure you it will come down to a “they”, so answer your own rhetorical question. I’ve made it clear that I don’t believe the 9/11 Commission report and the Official Story is full of holes….a major fabrication, imo. So, the next question would be, who, or what, did 9/11? That who/what would be the “they” and I don’t know who the “they” are, so “they” will remain “they” until the day I do know, which will be never, I’m sure. However, that doesn’t preclude the fact that if someone plays up 9/11 beyond its import, that someone plays into the hands of the aforementioned, and unidentified, “they”.”

    Do you have any interest in intelligent, constructive communication, or are you a waste of everyone’s time ? Fuck off with your offensive stupidity.

    You’re ‘logic’ is pitiful. You have no idea who ‘they’ are, but somehow we are playing into ‘their’ hands ? What garbage. You expect me to take you seriously ? Sorry mate, you’ll have to come up with something a bit more impressive than that.

    No, i’m not going to offer answers to any of your garbled responses, until you show a bit of courtesy and respect, and make some effort to express yourself clearly, preferably with some thought and consideration first.

  • Morocco Bama, you’ve shown yourself to be are a waste of time, incapable of serious adult conversation, not worth engaging with. Go fuck yourself.

  • The fact that Chomsky saw it necessary to “debunk” 9/11 truth, in particular the physical evidence, says mountains about where he’s coming from. He’s a major disinformation agent. It goes along with his insistence over the years that capitalism does not have an inherent crisis tendency, that Marx did not even have a coherent crisis theory (when in fact it was the core of his analysis of capital), that capital is not a social relation specific to a particular social system, namely capitalism, but some transhistorical category, and that the market can work per Adam Smith’s version if only good people and the state do enough to keep the bad influences in check. His influence has been very destructive in terms of any opposition to the system in the US.

    “We had a de facto police state before 9/11 and we had wars before 9/11. 9/11 wasn’t necessary for the invasion of Iraq. If you recollect, the ultimate reasoning, officially, was Weapons of Mass Destruction. 9/11 certainly isn’t the reason for Libya, nor is it the reason, even officially for the ultimate demolition of Iran.”

    Rubbish!! The police state was immensely enabled by 9/11. What there was previously was minimal in comparison, and it was enabled by Oklahoma City, another false flag op. Iraq rationale actually included a big dose of 9/11, for after all the WMDs were gonna be used to carry out another 9/11 style attack, we were told. Maybe you forgot, or you wish us to forget. The “threat” posed by Iran and its supposed pursuit of nukes, per official ideology, is likewise all about the use of such nukes in terrorist attacks, NOT in a simple act of launching the nukes via missiles. This is precisely why exposing 9/11 is so important. Not just a matter of undermining the legitimacy of the already existing military/police state, but also of preventing the next 9/11, which could well be a nuke.
    Ashton Carter, assistant sec of defense under Clinton, co-wrote an article with Philip Zelikow in Foreign Affairs in November ’98, describing 9/11 in all but name. Zelikow went on to become Condi Rice’s top assistant, drafting in 2002 the US strategic doctrine which called for preemptive action, even using nukes, against nations which MIGHT pose a threat to the US. Zelikow was also the executive director of the 9/11 Commission whose report was a series of omissions, lies and distortions. Carter more recently has been warning of the “threat” of a nuclear 9/11. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 9/11 is in fact part and parcel of deep politics, the state’s pursuit of secret operations to enable the ruling elite to get its way, stuff like COINTELPRO and Operation Gladio.
    9/11 is in fact a KEY part and parcel of a strategy being pursued by the US elite to maintain control of the world.

    It’s funny how people like you are so insistent that 9/11 truth should not be pursued, It’s as if that’s the next stage for those who can no longer deny that the official story is just plain indefensible, they then deny that the matter is even important. If it’s so unimportant, one wonders why the White House top terrorism official, Cass Sunstein, called for a program of “cognitive infiltration” of 9/11 truth groups so as to discredit and destroy them, and why the media across the spectrum, from CNN and Fox to Democracy Now and the Nation are all so intent on shutting down any discussion of “inside job.”

    Who is “they”? People such as Zbigniew Brzezinski, who is discussed in The Global Fascist Terror State (see link above), and the people he works for, such as the Rockefellers. Come on, MB, tell us that there is no such thing as a ruling elite, will you? :-) No, Chomsky is not in it, he’s just one of the cogs. Yes, do tell us how it’s just a coincidence that people from the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission keep rotating between top corporate ranks and top government posts, no matter which party is in power.

  • Good comment, Jeff.

    “It’s funny how people like you are so insistent that 9/11 truth should not be pursued, It’s as if that’s the next stage for those who can no longer deny that the official story is just plain indefensible, they then deny that the matter is even important.

    Yeah, isn’t that amusing. Hahaha. ‘We’re playing into their hands by discussing it’ :-)


  • It’s eerily similar to global warming deniers. :-)

  • Yes, isn’t that curious.

    First, ‘It isn’t happening’.

    Next, ‘Okay, it is happening, but it’s not important’.

  • Hahaha, frothing at the mouth much, Morrocco Obama ? Nonsense about limericks, rules, and now this regression to an infantile tantrum mode.

    My impression of you is someone who wants ‘Hey, look at me everyone, aren’t I so very smart !’ and if you don’t get that, then you cause disruption until you get the attention you crave.
    Not smart at all, though, just rather confused, messy thinking, aggressive, and unable to conduct a civil conversation. I don’t bother myself with such people, there are too many of them on the internet to permit them to waste my attention. Go write some abusive comments on youtube or facebook or whatever, you’ll find an abundance of similar minds to your own.

  • You WANT to discuss 9/11, you ask what we think…

    You DON’T WANT to discuss 9/11, because it’s ‘playing into their hands’….

    ( who ever the unspecified ‘they’ are, and whatever playing into their hands may mean )

    Make your mind up, MB, which is it ?

    You recommend that everyone should watch the Ted K. documentary, 2 hours long, and yet you have nothing to say about it, except that Brockman leaves his office with a big hat and raincoat…

    And YOU make a fool of yourself, by saying stupid, lame things, then insulting me, Ozman, and Jeff S. and others on other threads, and now it’s all OUR fault for conducting a Salem-style witch hunt against YOU…

    Dearie me….

  • My, oh my, MB’s nerves have been touched, cannot handle his own medicine. Too bad.:-)

    Chomsky’s deception role goes well beyond 9/11, as i pointed out. He wants people to believe that capitalism is not a problem, only “bad” capitalism is. 9/11 is one big chink in his saintly armor, enabled me to see him as the disinformation agent he’s been for a long time. I started wondering about him after an exchange of letters in ’88-90, in which he displayed that absolute lying about Marx’s crisis theory, but 9/11 blasted away any doubts.

    9/11 is not a distraction. It is a key aspect of the elite’s effort to reinforce their regime and prepare for worse to come. Those who would urge you to not pay it too much attention render you vulnerable to future 9/11s.

  • Morocco Bama

    Your question to me:

    “Ozzie, if the counter intel pros were going to do anything, this would be as good a thing as any, don’t you think? To label anyone who doesn’t subscribe to a particular notion of 9/11 as a disinformationist and any manner of description they can think up at the moment to include “Global Warming Denier.” I only say that since you’re the one that brought up counter intelligence.”

    First, do you accept my apology I posted, because it was and is genuine?

    To clarify for you: I did bring up agents for some interest or other, whoever this ‘they’ are. (I’m not going there), not counter intel. To be clear it was out of frustration, on my part, that ‘we’ were getting away from the central concerns of this site, and I am not trying to circumscribe, or limit them.

    I’m just pointing out that when ‘we’ discuss the whole notion of elites, TPTB, and players in the ‘steering the System for their own purposes game’, it seems there are some leads, but little ‘occular proof’ of a clear zig-zag map of how it all plays out, and whom, specifically, they all are.
    That being so, even if some posters have views on who some are, it becomes a head banging match, which ‘we’, including me it seems, have demonstrated how much a waste of time it can be bickering.

    I’m not intellegent enough to keep going with real inside info on who is responsible.
    My take is a more spiritual one, that does not obfuscate personal responsibility, by way of saying that the causes of this many faceted destructive machine are Ego based existance writ large, and small, in how ‘we’ all live. Human scale dimentions for social, cultural and civil life have been superceeded by the collective power of ego base self fulfillment, and self obsessed having and getting. The biosphere is FUBARed because of it. I wont elaborate further on that for now.

    Even though I have read half of ‘Crossing The Rubicon’, by Mike Ruppert, and all of ‘The Grand Chessboard’ by Zbigniew Brzezinski, and can see that 9/11 was very clearly a part of the Neo-con agenda, but all I can come up with is loosly to, for now, concur with Mr Rupperts broard argument that this wave of civil and social surveilence and control that is arriving is all about Peak Oil. There is no need to control so much if the party is in full swing. As Richard Heinberg has stated, ‘The Party’s Over’ and the limits of economic growth have been well over-reached. Although there is much more to it I dare say, but I don’t think it is going to be much different, no matter whom, and why, is gunning for world domination, or at least subjegation of anyone who can protest or dissent. That is just, for now, IMO.


    Morocco Bama
    Jeff S

    How about we all just admit we can throw slurs and give cheek in the schoolyard just like everyone else. Look, how boring it is, especially for others. Can we just give up on that angle, and just add to each other’s understending, and collaborate, rather than razzzing on each other?
    I apologise if anyone was offended by my insinuation of a spoiler attitude, and/or an agent for any PTB. How could I know….?

    Back to the details at hand….

  • Here in Japan, we were promised rolling blackouts due to our nuclear power plants being shut down. We didn’t have this problem last year, but this year, they said that this was most likely going to happen. Thus, they encouraged conservation! So, guess what happened? Power consumption went down 13% and so there was simply no need for power outages. And now, it looks like we will be ZERO nuclear and will be, with lightening speed moving to solar and wind. I will be putting up panels in my own home in three years time, if not sooner. But, it was a real mind-number! If you have a freezer of food, for example, you had better start eating all of it, as the blackouts were to be for hours! And this in Japan! But at least summer and the worst of it is over, but this last August, HEAT ISLAND, the temperatures and heat index were so bad that I could only take 10 minutes at a time to go out! Tens of thousands in the hospital for heat stroke.