The Third Industrial Revolution

As Derrick Jensen points out, this “culture as a whole and most of its members are insane.” I continue to be surprised at the number of people who believe in infinite growth on a finite planet. I continue to be amazed at the number of people who believe a politician cares about them, and that their favorite politician will act in their best interests. I continue to be surprised at the number of people who actually believe in the political process. I continue to be amazed at the number of people who support civilization, knowing it is killing us all. I’m even more surprised, though, at the number of people who claim ignorance about the costs and consequences of industrial civilization.

As pointed out by French author and Nobelist in literature André Gide: “Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.” So, here I go, saying it again.

Apparently I’m a very slow learner. It’s a bad, sad time. I hate this culture.

It’s worse than all of the above, though. There are a significant number of people who believe we can continue the omnicide, and that doing so is a good idea. Consider, for example, proponents of the Third Industrial Revolution.

The five pillars of the Third Industrial Revolution infrastructure are listed below. After pasting a brief description directly from Wikipedia (in italics), I dismantle each of the pillars.

1. Shifting to Renewable Energy: Renewable forms of energy — solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, ocean waves, and biomass — make up the first of the five pillars of the Third Industrial Revolution. While these energies still account for a small percentage of the global energy mix, they are growing rapidly as governments mandate targets and benchmarks for their widespread introduction into the market and their falling costs make them increasingly competitive.

“Renewable” sources of energy are derivatives of oil. Oil is the master material. The availability and price of oil control every other “resource.” I’ve pointed out the absurdity and hopelessness of switching the extra-oil sources here, here, here, here, here, and here (in chronological order).

2. Buildings as Power Plants: New technological breakthroughs make it possible, for the first time, to design and construct buildings that create all of their own energy from locally available renewable energy sources, allowing us to reconceptualize the future of buildings as “power plants”. The commercial and economic implications are vast and far reaching for the real estate industry and, for that matter, Europe and the world. In 25 years from now, millions of buildings — homes, offices, shopping malls, industrial and technology parks — will be constructed to serve as both “power plants” and habitats. These buildings will collect and generate energy locally from the sun, wind, garbage, agricultural and forestry waste, ocean waves and tides, hydro and geothermal — enough energy to provide for their own power needs as well as surplus energy that can be shared.

First, see my comment above regarding “renewable” energy sources. They are a well-promoted myth. Second, consider if you will, the reality of our collective situation 25 years from now. If human beings persist on this planet — and that’s a significant if, based on the various paths by which we are vigorously pursuing human extinction — then it’s difficult to imagine a scenario that includes an industrial economy at the scale of the globe. We can have an industrial economy or we can have a living planet, but we cannot have both over another quarter century.

3. Deploying Hydrogen and other storage technologies in every building and throughout the infrastructure to store intermittent energies. To maximize renewable energy and to minimize cost it will be necessary to develop storage methods that facilitate the conversion of intermittent supplies of these energy sources into reliable assets. Batteries, differentiated water pumping, and other media, can provide limited storage capacity. There is, however, one storage medium that is widely available and can be relatively efficient. Hydrogen is the universal medium that “stores” all forms of renewable energy to assure that a stable and reliable supply is available for power generation and, equally important, for transport.

As a carrier of energy — but definitely not a source — hydrogen is neither stable nor reliable. The notion of stability is dismissed with a single word: Hindenburg. The hype about hydrogen is extreme and extremely ridiculous.

Transporting hydrogen is prohibitively expensive and requires distillates of crude oil. In addition, automakers will not make hydrogen fuel-cell cars until the hydrogen infrastructure is in place, and the infrastructure will not appear until there are a sufficient number of fuel-cell cars on the road.

4. Using Internet technology to transform the power grid of every continent into an energy sharing intergrid that acts just like the Internet. The reconfiguration of the world’s power grid, along the lines of the internet, allowing businesses and homeowners to produce their own energy and share it with each other, is just now being tested by power companies in Europe. The new smart grids or intergrids will revolutionize the way electricity is produced and delivered. Millions of existing and new buildings — homes, offices, factories—will be converted or built to serve as “positive power plants” that can capture local renewable energy — solar, wind, geothermal, biomass, hydro, and ocean waves — to create electricity to power the buildings, while sharing the surplus power with others across smart intergrids, just like we now produce our own information and share it with each other across the Internet.

Never mind the endless hopium associated with producing “renewable” energy for more than seven billion people. Never mind the war-based industrial economy of the world’s sole remaining superpower. If we’re counting on technology currently under testing in Europe, we’re also assuming Europe will exist as a political entity for a long time. We’re also assuming Europeans will continue to play nice with each other as well as people in other countries. The very idea of surplus power is being revealed as a horrifically bad joke as the Middle East and northern Africa come under daily attack from several more-industrialized nations.

5. Transitioning the transport fleet to electric, plug in and fuel cell vehicles that can buy and sell electricity on a smart continental interactive power grid. The electricity we produce in our buildings from renewable energy will also be used to power electric plug-in cars or to create hydrogen to power fuel cell vehicles. The electric plug in vehicles, in turn, will also serve as portable power plants that can sell electricity back to the main grid.

Car culture is a huge source of many of our worst problems. Cheering for the never-ending continuation of car culture is a death sentence for the living planet. In addition, as indicated above, transporting hydrogen is unsafe, expensive, and dependent upon distillates of crude oil. And then there’s that chicken-and-egg issue associated with construction of infrastructure to support hydrogen fuel-cell cars.

When these five pillars come together, they make up an indivisible technological platform — an emergent system whose properties and functions are qualitatively different from the sum of its parts. In other words, the synergies between the pillars create a new economic paradigm that can transform the world.

When these five pillars of sand come together, they make up an undistinguished pile of dysfunctional hopium — a pile of sand whose properties and functions are qualitatively and quantitatively irrelevant to the industrial economy. In other words, the synergies between the meaningless pillars create a new pile of false hope for those who wish to continue destroying the living world. Fortunately, the hopium is running out.

Contrary to conventional wisdom among civilized humans, we don’t need an industrial economy to survive. In fact, all evidence indicates the opposite is true, yet we keep cheering for this culture of death, cheering for continued destruction of all we need for our survival. Insanity has won, proving Ralph Waldo Emerson correct: “The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.”

_________________

This essay is permalinked at Plan B Economics, The Refreshment Center, Island Breath, Seemorerocks, Market Clues (edited), and at Exopermaculture (with other information at the latter site).

Comments 365

  • ulvfugl 4:06 pm: striving to find ethical ways to live.
    ulvfugl 9:33 pm: I deliberately adjusted my life to require fewer resources, long ago, for ethical reasons.

    “If a man speaks of how ethical he is, make him pay cash.”

    That’s the difference between you and I, ulvfugl.

    You’re an oversocializedprig, like most of Guys hairshirt green acolytes here.

    I say, give up the corporate rat-race because living outside of the rat-race is more PLEASURABLE.

    And for all times Guy invokes Jefferson, he doesn’t seem to know much of his philosophy. Nor does he realize when he and you mewl about all “the hard work” that all you’re proving is that you simply doesn’t know what the hell you’re doing; more primitive means less work.

    “The life of an Indian is a continual holiday…” ~Thomas Paine

    • EPICUREAN (a school of Hedonism)
    – Pleasure is the greatest good.
    – Live modestly, limit one’s desires.

    • STOIC
    – Moral and intellectual perfection.
    – Virtue is sufficient for happiness.

    Which way does Jefferson lean?

    “As you say of yourself, I TOO AM AN EPICUREAN. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing every thing rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.”

    ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, October 31, 1819

    And don’t forget Jefferson copied the hedonist philosopher Jeremy Bentham’s phrase, “pursuit of happiness,” into the Declaration of Independence.

  • Hairshirt Green = HG
    GIVE UP YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS!
    HG: SWEAT AND TOIL!
    HG: NO MORE FUCKING IN THE FRONT HOLE!
    HG: LOOK HOW FUCKING SELF-RIGHTEOUS I AM!

    Rest of the world: Huh, dude, you from the Vatican?

    HG: YOU ARE ALL GOING TO BURN IN HELL! SEND YOUR HATE MAIL TO _____@_____.com

    Holy cow! That’s the way a hairshirt green like Guy, Kathy, ulvfugl, etal come across.

    ==============
    Contrast
    ==============

    “The life of an Indian is a continual holiday…” ~Thomas Paine

    “…consume less energy per capita per year than any other group of human beings…all the people’s material wants were easily satisfied.” ~Marshall Sahlins, The Original Affluent Society

    “Having few artificial Wants, they [Indians] have abundance of Leisure for Improvement by Conversation.” ~Benjamin Franklin

    Pleasure is the greatest good. Live modestly, limit one’s desires: the Epicurean way. “I TOO AM AN EPICUREAN.” ~Thomas Jefferson

  • It seems very clear that you do not understand what the word ‘ethical’ means, Ivy Mike.

    And your ‘that’s the difference between you and me’ is a non sequituur, having no connection whatsoever to the previous sentences.

    In other words, nonsense. The idea that being ethical and having a pleasurable life are mutually exclusive is simply absurd.

    I have no idea what you mean by over-socialised, other than it’s Kaczynski’s idea, not yours. Most people who’ve known me have considered me under-socialised. I have never been IN the corporate rat race, so there was never any need for me to leave it.

    You don’t actually have any ideas of your own, do you, Ivy Mike. You criticise others, tell them they are wrong, but you have nothing constructive to offer.

    After all those comments, and you STILL have no clue. What does it matter what Tom Paine, or Jefferson, or Bentham thought. about the lives of the Indians or anything else ? It has no relevance AT ALL to today, with a world of 7 billion and nuclear weapons and climate chaos.

    The rest is just gibberish. We’re not in the 1700s. The population of Europe is something like 800 million. The idea that they can all start living like Indians and go hunting and gathering is delusional.

    Having spent some hours attempting to communicate with you, as I said before, it’s a waste of time. Perhaps some others have gained something from it.

  • Geoff Lawton’s inspiring new video:

    http://permaculturenews.org/2012/11/12/ … ton-video/

    An email is required to see the video prior to general release.

    My personal opinion is it is past time to change the course of climate disruption. That being said, I’m not going to stop doing positive work whenever I can.

  • BILL MOYERS: First, congratulations on the baby. NAOMI KLEIN: Thank you so much.

    OMG! A BREEDER! That just won’t do around here, Tom.

    • “If somebody wants to have a litter of children, ignorantly or fully aware of our dire straits, I have little interest…” ~Guy McPherson

    • “I would only join a community where there are no fucking couples. A community that would be over all the fucking. Hear me, I don’t care what people do, I just wish I could find for myself a non-fucking community knowing pretty well it is impossible.” ~michele/montreal (Oct. 9)

    • “…stick to abstinence…give up your biological imperative…” ~Kathy C

    If Naomi throws the baby in the trash bin and makes a pilgrimage to the sweaty neo-Calvinist sage in the mud hut, then you can post her interview here. OK, Tom?

    • “You’ll first have to give up your beloved life and livelihood and walk away from all your colleagues, friends, and family. ~Guy McPherson (Oct. 15)

  • ulvfugl: We’re not in the 1700s.

    Guy McPherson: “…the post-industrial Stone Age… If you’re alive in a decade, it will be because you’ve figured out how to forage locally.”

    Bring your tripe up with Guy, ulvfugl.

  • You live in your own fantasy, Ivy Mike. I try to face the real situation.

  • Deer season opened yesterday. Now the urge to kill is legal and the trophy seekers are at work. We raise a lot of deer here on the farm so I get to see the excitment. The urge for violence predominates. Although a 10 pointer is the goal, the ultimate trophy is the planet. Hang a bloody globe above the fireplace. Think what killing the planet would do for your ego.

  • ulvfugl, send Guy your hate mail about being “delusional” if you disagree with Guy’s position, OK?

    ulvfugl: The idea that they can all start living like Indians and go hunting and gathering is delusional.

    “…the post-industrial Stone Age… If you’re alive in a decade, it will be because you’ve figured out how to forage locally.”
    ~Guy R. McPherson
    University of Arizona professor
    The Arizona Republic | Apr. 6, 2008
    http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0406vip-mcpherson0406.html

  • Dave, we say around here during the season: “If it’s brown, it goes down!” Wear orange. Paint the cows an orange stripe too. ;)

  • Ivy Mike, I have great respect for Guy McPherson’s intelligence, honour, integrity, intellectual honesty, also for his personal sacrifices so that he can be true to his principles and ethics and knowledge, and I admire his great skill as a teacher.

    As for you, I have no idea why you come to this site or post the stuff that you do, other than that you enjoy trolling, or someone pays you to do it.

  • ulvfugl, take your delusional hate mail and other assorted bullshit up with Guy, because you disagree with Guy. Why do you even come here trolling?

    ulvfugl: The idea that they can all start living like Indians and go hunting and gathering is delusional.

    “…the post-industrial Stone Age… If you’re alive in a decade, it will be because you’ve figured out how to forage locally.”
    ~Guy R. McPherson
    University of Arizona professor
    The Arizona Republic | Apr. 6, 2008
    http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0406vip-mcpherson0406.html

  • I don’t disagree with Guy at all, IMO, he’s one of the very few who ‘gets it’.

    You claim there’s a disagreement, but that’s because you have no understanding or insight, you don’t even care about the issues, you just want to arm wrestle and cause discord, for your own perverse and unpleasant motives.

    When did YOU ever contribute a serious, thoughtful and intellectually respectable comment on this blog ? Never !

  • Ivy Mike

    From the previous thread:

    What Stephen Colbert is to Bill O’Reilly, I am to Guy McPherson (and his acolytes.)

    Stephen Colbert on The O’Reilly Factor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QquTUR9nbC4

    Just watched that clip. The exchange between Colbert and O’Reilly appeared rather more humorous than those between you and Guy (+ acolytes). Are you hoping for Guy + acolytes to lighten up? They have too much energy invested in near term extinction for that to happen. Plus they are almost certainly right about the die-off (if not the extinction), even if their timing is a little out.

  • The kids are lookin’ for solutions, whatever the future holds notwithstanding:

    http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/most-popular/americas-top-young-scientist-2012.html

  • Guy’s post brings to mind a song I made up that’s been stuck in my head the last few days so I thought I’d share it.

    Sung to the tune of:

    THERE WAS A OLD LADY THAT SWALLOWED A FLY

    There once was a culture that swallowed a lie
    I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
    Perhaps they’ll die

    There once was a culture that damaged the land
    Their quest to expand made them damage the land
    They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
    But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
    Perhaps they’ll die

    There once was a culture that ruined the ocean
    Oh what a notion!
    To ruin the ocean
    They ruined the ocean and damaged the land
    Their quest to expand made them damage the land
    They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
    But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
    Perhaps they’ll die

    There once was a culture that poisoned the air
    They did not care that they poisoned the air
    They poisoned the air and ruined the ocean
    They ruined the ocean and damaged the land
    Their quest to expand made them damage the land
    They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
    But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
    Perhaps they’ll die

    There once was a culture that brought life to the brink
    Things go extinct when life’s at the brink
    They brought life to the brink and poisoned the air
    They poisoned the air and ruined the ocean
    They ruined the ocean and damaged the land
    Their quest to expand made them damage the land
    They damaged the land,they swallowed the lie
    But I don’t know why they swallowed the lie
    Perhaps they’ll die

    There once was a culture that showed no remorse
    They died of course!

  • IN THE PAST I really loved reading NBL not just for the essays but for the intelligent comments which followed. I’m not sure what happened or how it happened but the comment sections, especially this one, are dominated by only THREE contributors: Ivy Mike, Morroco Bama and ulvfugl. These three are amazing egomaniacs and, in my opinion, have pretty much destroyed the enjoyment I had in the past reading the different perspectives from the commentors. Now, of 125 responses the the majority are the same three donkeys braying the same old egoity.

    Guy, maybe it is time to shut this blog down or at least rename it to IvyMikeMorrocoBama&elfuglerBatLast.com

    I shall still read the essays but it is clear now there is no point in reading the comments if it is only the same three people – I am so VERY sick and tired of their BS and egomania.

    Goodbye to all the other intelligent posters who seem to have given up as I have.

  • There is more to this than meets the eye. Walt Kelly said “We have met the enemy and he is us.” This blog and the absolute verbal warfare that it engenders is as much a part of the equation as any other fruitless negativity and hostility. The industrialized human has been raised in a corrupted society in which status, power, and material possessions are the measure of a person. This corruption is as much a part of the problem as technical or philosophical issues mentioned here. These corruptions are symptomatic of other corruptions. Too many know-it-alls have elevated themselves to be the true purveyors of reality, when the study of history seems to show that most of it unfolds as a series of unforeseeable accidents. Instead of awarding oneself the throne for being the “emperor” of seers, I suggest that we each do whatever we can to find a better way that is less material intensive. We are all momentary sparks inhabiting meat robots. Nobody ever said life was going to be easy. But if we try to find balance and love in the world, that may be the best path to minimizing suffering. No replies solicited.

  • So, guys, is it a notch in your belt every time someone announces how disgusted they are with the comments and that they won’t be reading them anymore? Do you dance a little victory dance? Let’s see, how many different ways could you bash what I’m saying here? How long can you make that scroll bar on the side?

    dairymandave2003 said it beautifully: But if words could kill, some of us in this group would be dead. Our love of violence is what is killing the planet (and this blog). We will reap what we sow.

  • Guy,

    I belief that a day probably doesn’t go by, where anyone who is aware of even the potential threat of near term extinction, doesn’t wake in the morning, with some kind of awful relentless sinking feeling. For those who have achieved a level of acceptance, we have found ourselves in a terribly lonely place, and it’s perfectly natural why so many others would negatively react to such a catastrophic reality.

    I’m also coming to believe that for anyone who fully grasps both the science and its implications, that they probably have long battled with a degree of depression. IMO, depression is practically a prerequisite for being able to concentrate on such emotionally and psychologically ruinous phenomena. It’s one thing to be able to sit back and coolly analyze the data, but once that data begins to reflect massive intractable societal fallout, a certain disposition is almost required. I’m sure many of us here, have personally experienced the obtuseness of others who simply refuse to abandon their “hopium”. (brilliant neologism by the way).

    In the face of such overwhelming emotions, as I’ve written before, I believe that many of us are no longer looking to perpetuate the needless debate–which has literally been raging for decades–as to how billions of people can somehow magically sustain themselves in a finite biosphere that can only sustain a faction of our numbers. All exponential growth curves eventually end the same way, it’s only a question of timing.

    In my opinion, you’re right, this blog has in many ways run its course, its original objective is effectively no longer pertinent. Once near term extinction became an ever encroaching and unavoidable reality, everything, suddenly started to become irrelevant. But, this doesn’t mean this blog can no longer serve a greater purpose. It can be a place where those who do accept, or are in the process of coming to terms with the potential threat of near term extinction, can attempt to commiserate the associative unfathomable sorrow that naturally follows it, as well as, attempt to gain a better understanding of the contributing and often times confounding evidence, which might aid us all in making the best informed decisions we can……….all things considered.

    This level of commiseration, is simply not possible for those who either don’t accept, or refuse to accept the existing evidence, and they will naturally take offense to those who do, as I would, if I were in their shoes. But I, as well as many others here, aren’t interested in what long time deniers have to say anymore.

    Doubt and skepticism is healthy, it is needed. But when the “intent” of such skepticism in clearly not intended to clarify the evidence, but only obfuscate it with malice and indignation, then their input becomes highly inappropriate.

    Many of us here are probably obsessive people in our own right. Obviously, some are more passionate than others. Ulvfugl is an apparent example of the highly charged and passionate opinion on display at NBL. And even though his fervor can at times get the better of him, especially when taking the bait, as well as baiting others, he like the rest of us, can lose some perspective from time to time. But through it all, Ulvfugl’s humanity and integrity brilliantly shines through. He is clearly extremely knowledgeable and erudite on the subject of collapse, and it can be a little overwhelming. And while I take issue with some of the perspectives of MB, I sense he as well, is coming from an authentic and honest place. He has children. I do not. So, I can’t even begin to imagine, how a parent with youngsters will discover the coping mechanisms for facing such a daunting future, and I think his questioning of what’s appropriate behavior in the face of near term extinction is very important, and this is something I think we’re all wrestling with.

    Cheers to Jennifer Hartley!!!

    However, I can’t say the same about Ivy Mike. His needless pedantic contributions have been nefarious at best. His egotism and disdain of others is beyond inappropriate. I can sense no humility, empathy or compassion in his postings. And given the sheer volume of his petty and antagonizing input, I’m getting tired of having to continue to scroll pass them. If ever there was an example of a troll needing to be permanently blocked from NBL, we need look no further.

    So Guy, please keep this site up and running, I trust your judgment, most of us do, it’s why we’re here. All I ask is that you remove those whose intent is only to denigrate the genuine contributions of others, simply because they disagree.

    I am in no way, telling anyone what or how to think, but clearly NBL is a meeting place of like minds who grasp the imminence before us, and who are wanting/needing/looking to commiserate with fellow travelers who comprehend this gravity as well, as opposed to being endlessly assaulted for having to bear such unwanted heaviness in our hearts.

    Thanks, Daniel.

  • I’m sorry I had to say that. I’m sorry about a lot of things. It’s such a nice day today. So sunny and calm, I just sit here and look out the window at it. How many more?

    We raised 4 girls. One found this world too hostile, too violent. She left 2 teens. This leaves scars so we don’t forget. I’m sorry I had to say this.

    David

  • Madmanintheattic,

    Repeating the suggestion of Kathy C, “Use the scrollbar.”

    Michael Irving

  • @Daniel–Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Finding a way to keep pushing forward, still looking for that small glimmer of hope becomes more difficult every day.

    @Jennifer Harley– Without refreshing I make the score

    Ivy Mike——–49
    ulvfugi———-44
    others———–39

    Michael Irving

  • @Daniel

    You are absolutely correct about each day bringing a “relentless sinking feeling”. Also a sense of dread, a huge weight which smothers. Today is beautiful, and I took the three little ones to the park, but everything feels “off”. I always hate to get new-agey, but I’m very sensitive to different energies, and whether you want to call it the collective unconscious, or whatever, I think most people on some basic level are aware of whats going on, and are walking around with barely contained panic. We are all just a part of this world, no matter how much we try to be “above” it all, or separate ourselves from nature, compartmentalize, etc…
    Anyway, I have a hard time protecting myself from errant energies that come from other people, and even worse, my small children are very sensitive to it as well, and I have no way to protect them, either. My oldest is almost 5, with multiple life-threatening food allergies, serious environmental allergies, and asthma, and since he started pre-school, he has had 2 lung infections and a horrible virus. I feel like I can barely keep him alive on a day to day basis, and worrying about the future, and the availability of medicines he needs to live is more that I can wrap my mind around.
    I have struggled with depression my whole life, but recently had an anxiety episode, unlike any I have ever experienced. It affected my hearing and disconnected me from my surroundings, not the racing heart, hyperventilating type I’ve had before, but indeed, the doctor said it was a panic attack. I felt like I was shutting down by shutting the world out, without the explicit permission from my “mind”.
    So, I guess I have no point, really, just that I’m “feeling it”.

    @dairymandave I’m sorry for the loss of your daughter. I’ve found myself in that place, but try not to visit it since having children. I’m sorry for many things, too.

  • HROEI

    Life’s hard, but yet we’re more tested
    Now that our energy’s crested;
    Increasing crappiness
    Decreases Happiness
    Returned On Energy Invested.

  • @ Madmanintheattic ….have pretty much destroyed the enjoyment I had in the past reading the different perspectives….

    I am truly sorry if I have put you off reading the comments here, Madmanintheattic, but, look, we are talking about *the extinction of the human species*, the premature deaths of billions, and the extinction of much of life on Earth… that’s hardly a subject anyone would want to read about for recreational enjoyment, is it ? All the same, I am indeed very sorry if your pleasure has been spoiled.

    If you believe there is something wrong in Guy’s original analysis, or in my own analysis, then you could have made some comments with regard to that, as a positive contribution rather than a criticism ?

    @ Jennifer Hartley, likewise, I have no wish to put anyone off reading these comments. My intention is to understand and explain the predicament we face. If you see errors or possibilities in the analysis, you too could have commented. As it has been, whatever I say here gets distorted, twisted and diverted by other commenters. I do take the destruction of the biosphere personally. It’s my world too, which I love more than anything. In the past I have been willing to bite my lip, but that does not solve or resolve anything, does it. Better to get it all out in the open, then everyone can see where they stand, for better or worse, IMO.

    @ Daniel. Thank you for the very kind words.

    @ David. Sorry about your grief. I actually find the idea of killing deer, or anything else, for pleasure, far more repellent and offensive than any words on a computer screen.

    @BadlandsAK, my heart goes out to you, it does seem so unfair that you have to endure so much.

    Godesky was quoted above : Most will choose to die; we cannot change that. It would be just as wrong to force them to choose life as it was for Kaczinski to force others to die. What we can do is try as hard as we can to make sure everyone understands that it truly is a choice they face. When hearing this defense, many progressivists will claim that our willingness to “allow” such a thing to happen is characterized as monstrous. First, the hubris dripping from such a statement is absurd; we do not “allow” such things to happen any more than we “allow” the sun to shine or the rain to fall.

    I find that unacceptable. It’s like saying ‘millions of jews were sent to the death camps’. But it wasn’t ‘millions of jews’, it was millions of individual human beings, each with their own story and hopes and fears and life…

    This tragedy didn’t ‘just happen’, like rain falling, it has been brought about by human decisions, people with faces and names and addresses, who have chosen one priority over another….

    ‘Billions will die’ is much too easy. A phrase that slips off the tongue. Those billions are all people who someone knows, is related to, with faces and feelings and characters… No doubt, a lot of them, I’d find personally unattractive, and easy not to care about…. but there are also so many wonderful, wonderful, delightful people, and it is so heart-breaking to think that their hopes for a life are taken away from them… too heart-breaking… the only grief that matches, is the tragedy of all the other living creatures, that are blameless, and the loss of the staggering beauty of this fabulous Earth…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p010v3zt

  • “Too many know-it-alls have elevated themselves to be the true purveyors of reality, when the study of history seems to show that most of it unfolds as a series of unforeseeable accidents. Instead of awarding oneself the throne for being the “emperor” of seers, I suggest that we each do whatever we can to find a better way that is less material intensive. We are all momentary sparks inhabiting meat robots. Nobody ever said life was going to be easy. But if we try to find balance and love in the world, that may be the best path to minimizing suffering.”

    Amen, brother.

    I too fail to understand why the comments section has become an interminable debate between the same 3 individuals. What’s the point of these exchanges? What is it you think you are going to win if you get the last word in? If we agree that the time for a “normal” life is very short and on the other side of “normal” is extinction and horror, then who cares whether Jared Diamond’s critique of agriculture is correct?

    If a bunch of anonymous typists can’t even manage civility on a blog of this nature (which presupposes a certain level of awareness, otherwise you wouldn’t be here), then I suppose we will be doing the universe a favor by self-eradicating this species of self important neochimpanzees.

  • Whatever their environmental virtues, the Amish are utterly unsustainable simply because of their high birthrates, some 2-3X replacement level. Their population is increasing by 2-3% annually, doubling approximately every 20-25 years, quadrupling every 40-50 years, 8X as large after 75 years, etc. In other words, classic, unsustainable exponential growth.

    Worse, unlike other traditional groups that undergo a demographic transition (from high birth rates and high death rates to low birth rates and low death rates), they show no signs of “modernizing” and moderating their attitudes towards birth control and large families; large families and the rejection of birth control seem central to their very self-identity.

    It’s a demographic time bomb, in slow motion perhaps, but a time bomb nonetheless.

  • depressive lucidity : …If we agree that the time for a “normal” life is very short and on the other side of “normal” is extinction and horror, then who cares whether Jared Diamond’s critique of agriculture is correct?

    Yes, but the story is constantly unrolling, like a carpet, before us, it’s an unfolding dialectic.

    I recently watched an old video by Winona Laduke. At the time, she was a cutting edge radical. Now it seems very dated and tame, talking about windmills and electric cars. At that time people thought that was a way forward. Now, in retrospect, it looks like just another technofix fantasy to try and keep the same old system afloat for a little longer.

    There was a time when Jared Diamond seemed cutting edge and radical, with his talk of the collapse of civilisations, because people couldn’t yet imagine that such a thing could happen to us, and yet now those thoughts fairly are mainstream.

    Naomi Klein seemed cutting edge and radical, with No Logo, but, to me, now, her ideas also seem very tame and dated.

    This keeps on happening. For me, now, this blog seems where it’s at, because Guy has the courage to say publicly what others will not, ( even if they may think it in private.)

    What seems to happen, is that someone, say, Daniel Quinn, comes up with a new insight, people slowly catch on, thinking ‘that makes sense’, and then others find flaws or holes or counter-narratives, and some other story becomes the new ‘radical’…. this isn’t going to stop, is it.

    We’re going to experience ever more frequent and devastating shocks, which we will have to interpret and assimilate. Nobody likes this, nobody wants it, it’s just the story of our times, similar perhaps to what it was like for Europeans to live through the Black Death, when about a third of the population perished over a short period, and everyone’s lives were completely changed.

    We’re all learning as we go along. Some people have very strongly held views on some of the issues, so it’s inevitable that there will be vitriolic and acrimonious clashes and disputes from time to time. It’s been like this since ancient Greece at least, surely long before, I don’t think it will change.

    It’s why there’s two sword lengths between the seats in the British Parliament, because people used to carry their swords and get angry enough to stand up and draw them, when they debated emotive issues, like whether or not to behead the King or not…

    At the moment, I fully believe, in all good faith, that the likely future is a Guy has described. I fully believe what I have stated on this thread. But, who knows what strange twist might occur ? The Yellowstone Super Volcano ? Oxygen levels starting to drop ? Then the whole picture gets changed…

    All any of us can do is to get as well-informed as possible, and be honest in our assessments.

    As I’ve mentioned, I’ve been through the grief, I believe we have lost this marvellous world, as a result of human stupidity. That does not seem to have dawned upon the general population yet, even some readers here. It takes time to sink in.

    To a degree, that experience has drained the humanity out of me, tore my heart out. I had never realised or expected that people could be so quite ignorant and evil. What remains is a deep anger, because all this horror could have been readily avoided. Twenty, thirty, years ago, we had a really good chance. The other thing that remains, is constant joy at the great beauty that surrounds me here and that I observe each day that I continue to live.

  • GUY’S April 2008 PREDICTION: “Later this year, we fall off the oil-supply cliff, with global supply plummeting below 70 million barrels/day. Oil at merely $100 per barrel will seem like the good old days.”

    2012 REALITY: Still above 70 mbpd, no “plummeting” in supply, lower oil price.

    “a result of human stupidity” ???

    “attempt to commiserate the associative unfathomable” !!!

  • David, I am so sorry for the loss of your daughter. You don’t need to apologize for saying it. The scars are real and must be honored. I’m so sorry your family has had to experience such anguish.

    Daniel, I agree with you completely. I will commiserate with you any day.

    Ulvfugl, I don’t object to your analysis. I greatly appreciate most of what you write. But you don’t have to allow yourself to be baited over and over. You don’t have to lash out in response. Intelligent analysis cannot be heard over the din of insults. And it doesn’t matter who started it. You can do better. So can others. If the vitriol rises, there are choices to be made about how to respond. You write, I have no wish to put anyone off reading these comments. I’m sincerely glad that is a goal of yours. Please consider your words carefully.

    Morocco Bama, “this culture,” to me, means the culture of industrial civilization, domination, control, exploitation, colonization, violence, and greed. Its reach is global.

    BadlandsAK, I’m really sorry that you and your kids are having such a hard time. I have had panic attacks before and they are knock-down drag-out awful. They often don’t look or feel like what people might expect them to look or feel like. It’s painful and disorienting, I know. You are right, it’s not just you who experiences anxiety and depression, and through the awfulness, I still believe it is a normal human response to insane circumstances.


  • depressive lucidity Says: If a bunch of anonymous typists can’t even manage civility on a blog of this nature (which presupposes a certain level of awareness, otherwise you wouldn’t be here), then I suppose we will be doing the universe a favor by self-eradicating this species of self important neochimpanzees.

    Talking online is addictive,
    And although the medium’s restrictive,
    It gives a good view
    Of what human groups do,
    And in this way can be predictive.

  • @BadlandsAK

    Damn friend, that kind of anxiety leaves me speechless, and I feel hypocritical to even try to comprehend your dilemma. It’s easy to talk about “letting go”, but that doesn’t really apply to the care of dependent young children. That’s all about holding on the best you can. Other than exploring alternative remedies, which I’m sure you have, what other solution is there in regards to pharmaceuticals? I have several friends in a similar situation, and out respect for their circumstances, I usually keep my mouth shut about any of this shit. So like Jennifer H. I greatly admire your courage in not looking away, and hopefully that courage will eventually spill over into the rest of your life.

    All I can say, is that while these anxiety attacks might seem like death warmed over, I would think that over time, they will only lessen, given you’re already looking into the abyss. I mean how much worse can it get, than contemplating near term extinction……other than living through it? It’s not as if you’re fooling yourself now, so as with most things, we will find a way to adapt, even if we haven’t a clue as to how. Thanks for your clarity and honesty, it’s very humbling. Daniel

  • ulvfugl, your point is well taken. From our limited perspective it is impossible to predict what the next 100 years will hold with any degree of certainty. Any number of unforeseen events could intervene and radically change the our trajectory towards NTE.

    To borrow an example from Christianity (with all due respect to those who don’t subscribe to a religious worldview), from a human perspective the crucifixion seemed final and no one could have imagined a resurrection. Perhaps our future is cruciform. Perhaps we all must pass through a collective death (both spiritual and physical) before something of a higher order can be born.

    As to the bickering, I agree that it is also a very human trait. At least you guys are arguing in the knowledge of what humanity is actually facing.

    So, my brothers and sisters on this blog, I hope we can continue our dialogue. The fact that there are people out there who are intelligently awake gives me a little hope that Godot might one day show up and elevate the monkeys to a higher level of Being.

  • One more thing I would like to add.

    Thank you Daniel and Badlands for sharing your personal psychological struggles with the rest of us.

    I imagine that most of us who visit this website on a regular basis are surrounded by people who are either oblivious to the situation, or at best are somewhat aware of the danger, but do not dare walk down that very dark path which leads to the acceptance that NTE is a very real possibility, not just a masochistic internet fantasy. One of the factors that causes depression IMO is the sense of acute alienation that accompanies knowledge. When someone realizes that the future has vanished, they fall out of the social meta-narrative into a kind of mental void. Suddenly walking around a city, or working in an office, where everyone is secure in their television induced Capitalist delusions becomes a very challenging experience.

    The value of participation in this blog’s discussions is that sharing ideas (or even arguing) with others who have awakened to reality helps one cope with the alienation that most of us are experiencing in our daily lives. I find it comforting that there are others somewhere in cyberspace who see the same ominous phenomenon ‘slouching towards Bethlehem to be born.. ‘

  • Here’s the better part of that story which should be known and I’m not sorry to tell. It’s been 7 years now and the first year was hard. Her children seem to be more mature than average, more grown up. That’s rare these days. One is successfully married. Tough times make us stronger and better able to handle problems, better able to handle the truth. I expect this same process will happen here on this blog…after the screaming stops.

    To change the subject, this from NOAA:

    http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/11/october-was-looking-kind-normal-until-sandy-broke-record-books

    David

  • This from the World Bank… an underestimate IMO, but interesting that they are saying it.

    The report says that the 4°C scenarios are potentially devastating: the inundation of coastal cities; increasing risks for food production potentially leading to higher under and malnutrition rates; many dry regions becoming dryer, wet regions wetter; unprecedented heat waves in many regions, especially in the tropics; substantially exacerbated water scarcity in many regions; increased intensity of tropical cyclones; and irreversible loss of biodiversity, including coral reef systems.

    “The Earth system’s responses to climate change appear to be non-linear,” points out PIK Director, John Schellnhuber. “If we venture far beyond the 2 degrees guardrail, towards the 4 degrees line, the risk of crossing tipping points rises sharply. The only way to avoid this is to break the business-as-usual pattern of production and consumption.”

    http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/2012/11/18/new-report-examines-risks-of-degree-hotter-world-by-end-of-century

  • ulvfugl

    I just heard this 10 minutes ago, on the late ABC news here in Sydney. I agree, when you write that it is an underestimate IYO, but what was telling to me was that the story was delivered without comment or further details.

    Perhaps tomorrow, I will check the papers, but I am not holding my breath.

    Perhaps it is just the beginning of the awakenning to the catastrophic NTE?

    Also there was no comment on the ABC 7 O’clock news, weather segment, when the weather gut predicted ‘catastrophic’ heat and bush fire risk in South Australia. It is not even December yet!!

    I would not be surprised if we see an escalation of reports, as if in a co-ordinated release, without a lot of comment, designed to have a panic effect, and it will work. But what is on the ‘front page’ of the public mind, who is plugged into everything?

    Syr-a, G-z- and Isr–l. !!!

    People are shit scared that this conflict will escalate.
    Prestidigitation, again.!!

    We will soon know.

  • Thank you Anthony and red admiral for the comments and links in answer to my question. Very helpful in better understanding the problems inherent in alternative energy proposals. I still keep thinking that self-sufficient systems could be created on a more local level with solutions shared among the general population, but that’s likely just wishful thinking. We don’t have enough time.

    Also thank you Robin Datta for your comments and links. Thank you thestormcrow for posting that poem. And thank you Jen Hartley for being you.

  • Guy complains of insults, yet his buddy ulvfugl can insult all day.

    But show how Guy is wrong, and Guy is not a scientist, Guy is not an anarchist. Guy is a petulant censor.

    So just one more time, and then I’ll leave you alone, Guy. Because you’re a fragile flower and an intellectual fraud.

    _______________

    GUY’S April 2008 PREDICTION: “Later this year, we fall off the oil-supply cliff, with global supply plummeting below 70 million barrels/day. Oil at merely $100 per barrel will seem like the good old days.”

    2012 REALITY: Still above 70 mbpd, no “plummeting” in supply, lower oil price.


  • OzMan Says: Perhaps it is just the beginning of the awakenning to the catastrophic NTE?…. People are shit scared that this conflict will escalate….

    If you like to worry, perhaps
    This is when everything snaps:
    By most doomer maps,
    Not much time can elapse
    Before we encounter collapse.

  • depressive lucidity

    I agree with the comments you make about the difficulty in relating to others who are ‘secure’, without the ‘knowledge’ it is all over red rover.

    very hard to succintly communicate the NTE scenario and remain emotionally available – buy hey, someone’s got to do it, right?

    Here are the wake up calls, most, ( who can afford to watch video fiction), should have taken so seriously:

    ‘Terminator will not stop …. Ever’

    ‘The Road’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbLgszfXTAY

    Some great work done here at NBL,

    It’s been an honour to serve with you all.

    !!!

  • Ivy Mike

    You wrote:

    “2012 REALITY: Still above 70 mbpd, no “plummeting” in supply, lower oil price.”

    Have you ever heard of the ‘intentionally engineered’ World Financial Crisis, (still unravelling)?

    Demand has slowed due to this ‘event’, but it will inevitably rise, or there will be world stagnation, and that will collapse the world economy the harder way.

    Hard way, or harder way?

    You pick, its anyones guess now.

    Guy may be in error about the timing, and I think he defers giving any predictions ‘now’, he has seen the problems with loss of credibility there. However, that does not invalidate the thesis of his, and others like Matt Savinar, that world crude oil decline will lead to collapse in these decades we tread now.

    Proof will emerge as it unfolds.

    How soon?

    You can probably get good odds at your local ‘sportsbet’ outlet, you can bet on just about every aspect of public life now, so go for it.

    Bet your life…I’m betting mine, and by extension my kids too.

    “Come in spinner”

  • Demand has slowed due to this ‘event’, but it will inevitably rise, or there will be world stagnation, and that will collapse the world economy the harder way.

    If demand slows that way, then supply increases and price drops, if you believe supply and price are predicated upon demand. I don’t believe price is determined that way any longer, but if you do, and Guy does, then if you believe the economy is being purposely collapsed, then supply and price will not manifest as Guy predicted, and indeed it hasn’t manifested that way.

  • I love this blog and come here very frequently, just as a way of staying in touch with my new reality. Like Daniel and depressive lucidity, I’m still struggling to come to terms with the idea of NTE.

    We need to come up with new words, though. As someone who has struggled with clinical depression, I know there is a difference between the despair I feel now and being clinically depressed.

    My mother attempted suicide more than once, and my sister, after many tries, was finally successful in 1995. Depression, the real thing that can make going to the mailbox a long struggle, is different than the anxiety, rage, despair and cynicism that I can feel today.

    As dairymandave said, that first year is a bitch, but time does help.

    Life is so funny. My brother, who is convinced that technology will save us from climate change, is shitscared of the current middle east conflict. Isn’t it amazing that we prefer to use up our anxious energy worrying about something we have absolutely no control over than worrying about something we have some daily control over – at least in terms of how we live our lives? While I, the doomer, am fairly sanguine about what happens over there and am way more worried about the XL and tar sands and fracking.

    I don’t know if there is any meaning in any of this, but maybe it beats reading ivy mike. ;)

  • short intrusion in the boy’s club:

    ulvfugl said:

    O2 Dropping Faster than CO2 Rising

    the closest manifestation of NTE in my life are the 3 big maple trees rapidly dying in the windows of my 3rd floor apartment. This process has been really “visible” around my house since 2008. I think O2 cannot but very swiftly go down with the loss of ALL trees presently dying everywhere (see gail’s last post from Saturday: http://witsendnj.blogspot.ca/)

    I would like to have access to the report cited by ulvfugl. Is there a way without paying? do you have it?

    besides the trees, here, in my life, the sky is permanently veiled with air traffic condensation clouds, the sunlight is thus permanently diffracted, extremely bright and blinding (as in all the pictures, movies and commercials, over the world, since 2009), the birds, squirrels, bats, insects, racoons, etc. are all gone (where?) despite the abundance of trees and food, there are very few stars (if any), the air is always heavy with gazoline and dust, the temperature is stangely different from normal, there is a heaviness in all things, my heart is always hurting, i make like everything is ok in front of my sons and friends because what else?, i am sinking, and more.

    why don’t you leave? is everyone telling me. why don’t you go somewhere else if you are not happy here? stop complaining and do something about it, for doom’s sake!
    ya, sure…

    i live where i was born and where i will most probably die. i say mobility of meat (like me) is part of the problem (long story). my maple trees cannot move to try escape their dreadful fate. hemoglobin vs clorophyll.

    the trees are beautiful until their end and through their decay…

  • Consider this, Guy, regarding the ongoing difficulty this blog is having with those your other posters accuse of trying to undermine your message:

    Humans who are not intrinsically motivated to behave well will behave well only when extrinsically motivated and often not even then. There was a time in history when human communities were truly interdependent; survival (getting basic needs met) of individuals/family lines depended on inclusion in the group. Individuals internalized group norms (the groups’ version of behaving well) because they had to. The punishment for poor behavior was shunning and in worst cases, banishment. Shunning was used as a behavior modification technique, offering an opportunity for the individual to return to community normative behavior. Banishment was understood to represent an irredeemable situation, the individual, for whatever underlying reason, was incorrigibly bad. Individuals who do not behave well when posting to this site can be presumed to have no intrinsic motivation to behave well. Are those individuals bad people, whatever the underlying reason? It’s difficult to know the one end of it but the evidence points to the obvious conclusion that they are not intrinsically good. Since a lack of interdependence in the pseudo-community of this blog ensures the ineffectiveness of extrinsic pressures on individuals to conform to politeness norms, and personal shunning (not reading the bad posters’ “contributions”) doesn’t shut anyone up, perhaps banishment is the only appropriate response.

  • 1) to Gene and in relation to other posts on this thread: shunning is widely and very often used by the Amish patriarchs who control e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g (with the objective of impeaching any young people from straying ever so lightly from their absolute power and to maintain them in ignorance). just sayin.

    2) moderate, control, shun, ban are all actions that take a lot of energy, time and work (from scarce resources). and anybody can come back on a site in no time with a new address, a new name, and his old shit.
    than what? re-moderate, re-control, re-shun, re-ban? this is the reality of Internet. you almost never know who you are in contact with. just know what people «say» they are.

    did I just send 2 messages on the same day?
    sorry, back to gloom.

  • @everyone-Thank you for the kind words. I swear I was not whining! I have been of the belief that since I have so much experience with depression, that I could somehow keep my guard up, keep an eye on things, and prevent the downward spiral. It’s worrisome that the mind can have a mind of it’s own!
    Life with small children necessarily keeps me living in the moment, otherwise the despair would get me. I almost lost it last night when I saw a picture of a mother gorilla with her 4 day old newborn at the Tel Aviv Zoo. Can they hear the bombing? What must they think? I would say it is an apt metaphor for what we have done to this planet, but I can find no metaphor there, only the horror of truth.

    I wanted to briefly comment about the debate(?) that has been going on in the comments re: children, birth control, sterilization. I have missed most of the discussion, but I want to say that if I had been aware of NTE, I would not have had children. I left a long fruitless marriage & started my life over in pursuit of an MFA, totally accepting a childless future. How wrong I was. Being in my late 30’s, having lost 2 pregnancies, and discovering a genetic blood clotting disorder, one baby was a gift, two was a surprise, and three was omg wtf! I cannot take hormonal birth control, and my first priority after our big move w/2 children was to find a dr. and get an IUD. Was surprised the morning after the move w/ a positive pregnancy test. I am thankful for the children, don’t get me wrong, but I had to inject blood thinners through 3 pregnancies, suffer severe migraines, and underwent 3 c-sections, the 1st which resulted in hematomas under the incision and 2 1/2 months of open-wound healing. The 3rd which resulted in easy access to a TUBAL LIGATION. I am so thankful for the children, but I cannot tell you how thankful and relieved I am to be sterile. I cannot imagine the horror of having to go through any of the high-risk pregnancy/birth stuff without access to modern medicine. This is just to look at the issue from a practical angle and in no way addresses philosophical/ethical dilemmas of having babies in the face of NTE.
    So, my reality is raising small children with an uncertain future. In a way it doesn’t change many things, the uncertain future, that is. I have been through a lot of tragedy and abuse in my own life, so I approach it as if the future is not guaranteed anyway. And then there is the actual act of living with kids-it is all consuming with regards to time and energy. I can’t seem to get the kitchen counter organized, much less prepare for certain doom.

    So, here we are. My kids know the trees are sick, my son knows his food allergies can kill him, and they will all likely experience hunger some day, just as I did when I was a child. But life is full of hugs, kisses, tears, and requests for a tv in the bathroom, among other things…

  • May I offer this for your Monday morning reading enjoyment (or because I’m vicious and don’t want to be the only one to suffer this morning). I recommend that you read the whole thing, but here’s the last paragraph:

    Chris Hedges–”The Elites Will Make Gazans of Us All”
    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/elites_will_make_gazans_of_us_all_20121119//

    “As the U.S. empire implodes, the harsher forms of violence employed on the outer reaches of empire are steadily migrating back to the homeland. At the same time, the internal systems of democratic governance have calcified. Centralized authority has devolved into the hands of an executive branch that slavishly serves global corporate interests. The press and the government’s judiciary and legislative branches have become toothless and decorative. The specter of terrorism, as in Israel, is used by the state to divert gargantuan expenditures to homeland security, the military and internal surveillance. Privacy is abolished. Dissent is treason. The military with its mantra of blind obedience and force characterizes the dark ethic of the wider culture. Beauty and truth are abolished. Culture is degraded into kitsch. The emotional and intellectual life of the citizenry is ravaged by spectacle, the tawdry and salacious, as well as by handfuls of painkillers and narcotics. Blind ambition, a lust for power and a grotesque personal vanity—exemplified by David Petraeus and his former mistress—are the engines of advancement. The concept of the common good is no longer part of the lexicon of power. This, as the novelist J.M. Coetzee writes, is “the black flower of civilization.” It is Rome under Diocletian. It is us. Empires, in the end, decay into despotic, murderous and corrupt regimes that finally consume themselves. And we, like Israel, are now coughing up blood.”

    Michael Irving

  • BadlandsAK, thanks for sharing your story. I am glad you survived the pregnancies. I had someone tell me once that pregnancy wasn’t dangerous because it was natural. You can guess the gender :)

    I have seen some of the pictures of the children coming out of Gaza and it tears at me – and then Michael posts Chris Hedges saying the elites will make Gazans of us all. I am afraid that might be true, but I also think that they will have little time to do it.

    The future is always uncertain no matter how much stability we surround ourselves with. Y

    I had to chuckle when you wrote “It’s worrisome that the mind can have a mind of it’s own!” Yes it is worrisome. I have often wondered who it is we are talking to when we talk to ourselves. Is it the mind of its own, or are there more than two minds in there????

    And you wrote “I can’t seem to get the kitchen counter organized, much less prepare for certain doom.” Now that shows you have an important ability. Orlov says that humor is something we need to face what is coming and you obviously have that preparation down pat.

  • Chris Hedges always tells the truth with such power. wow. It seems like many people want this blog to continue. In my experience, all the blogs that “tell it like it is” have suffered similar infestations. Orlov, Automatic Earth, Agonist, Ian Welsh, etc. have all tried different solutions, with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately, it requires massive vigilance and a cooperative web host. Is it really important to make people aware of what their future is? Is it even possible to do this? What good would it do if we managed to convince everyone on earth that NTE is reality? Even if it isn’t reality, would it be good to convince everyone that it is? Are some people just trying to keep the status quo until they, personally, are gone?

    The fact that there are people who want to destroy this blog or drive folks away from it tells me that somewhere people don’t want this message out. Why? Don’t they want the plebs to all run around in panic and kill themselves and destroy civilization? You’d think that TPTB would want total collapse asap so that there might be a chance for their descendants to build their totalitarian paradise on a habitable planet. It’s going to happen anyway, so why try to put it off? Then again, why try to rush it, either? I guess I don’t get it. There are so many possible scenarios, plots within plots, reverse psychology, missing motivations, etc. I do like the idea that I can come here and ask these questions and have people discuss these things seriously. I also like the idea that I can come here and read Guy’s posts and all the links to studies, reports, articles, videos, that I don’t have time to find myself.

  • Michele/montreal : I would like to have access to the report cited by ulvfugl. Is there a way without paying? do you have it?

    No, I don’t have it, and I don’t do Paypal. I googled a bit to see if I could find a copy, but no luck.

    Seems reasonable to conclude that when the trees go, and the phytoplankton goes, so does the oxygen…

    This from 2008

    In the view of Professor Ervin Laszlo, the drop in atmospheric oxygen has potentially serious consequences. A UN advisor who has been a professor of philosophy and systems sciences, Laszlo writes:

    Evidence from prehistoric times indicates that the oxygen content of pristine nature was above the 21% of total volume that it is today. It has decreased in recent times due mainly to the burning of coal in the middle of the last century. Currently the oxygen content of the Earth’s atmosphere dips to 19% over impacted areas, and it is down to 12 to 17% over the major cities. At these levels it is difficult for people to get sufficient oxygen to maintain bodily health: it takes a proper intake of oxygen to keep body cells and organs, and the entire immune system, functioning at full efficiency. At the levels we have reached today cancers and other degenerative diseases are likely to develop. And at 6 to 7% life can no longer be sustained.

    Scaremongering? I don’t think so. A reason for doomsaying? Not yet. What is needed is an authoritative evidence-based investigation to ascertain current oxygen levels and what consequences, if any, there are for the long-term wellbeing of our species – and, indeed, of all species.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/13/carbonemissions.climatechange

  • Two large German companies and two European governments withdraw support from the large solar project in North Africa.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20357167

    At least the global industrial/monetary collapse has proceeded far enough to cut into this idiotic last ditch effort to use some kind of technological fix. It hasn’t collapse far enough, however.

    Go lemmings, go!

  • @ Wildwoman

    I have noticed the same thing many times, people have their pet obsessions, which they hyper fixate on, but live in abject denial of events that are staring them in the face. The whole Alex Jones contingency is a classic example. I mean nothing throws you for a loop, more than having an otherwise sane conversation with someone about the Federal Reserve and suddenly they start going off about Lizard People. They are so obsessed with the U.N. somehow instigating a one world government, that climate change must be a hoax, therefore, the IPCC must be a clandestine organization designed to implement population control. It’s shocking how many people believe this. You think to yourself, “how is that possible…..”, then you remember that in America, more Americans literally believe Obama is a Muslim, than actually believe in evolution. Oh god…save us from your followers.

  • In response to BC Nurse Prof’s comment at 11:48 AM on November 19th, the TPTB principals are better informed about the dangers of climate change than any blog commentators are. Climate change has been on the public agenda of most of the meetings of high government officials and capitalists for some time. If they have seen evidence convincing them that this will result in human extinction in a few decades, they probably think that if this gets out to the general public the news will remove most of the psychological restraints on anti-social activities (vandalism, rapes, theft, gang violence, etc.) and so would want to understandably keep the information under wraps for as long as possible.

    If there is a danger of near-term extinction but no certainty, and it could be headed off if sufficient measures were taken, the actions and movitivations of TPTB become more puzzling.

  • An anonymous source brought this site to my attention and I had one of my administrative assistants look into it and report her findings. I have to say that what she reported is rather disturbing, and I don’t believe I have seen or heard of anything like it on the net. I think it is best described as a suicide cult. It appears many if not all the individuals involved in this quasi community are unconscious and not aware of what they’re involved in. It’s dangerous and unhealthy, and I would like to help. In fact, I think this would make an excellent show. I would appreciate it if some of you would reach out to me via my website so we can get the ball rolling on a unique and entertaining episode of Dr. Phil. We can kill two birds with one stone. I get an intriguing show for my viewers, and you get to think and behave more clearly and understand the trap you are laying for yourselves.

    In Your Favor,

    Dr. Phil

  • Morroco Bama wrote:

    I’m confused about what is meant, precisely, by “this culture.” Is it referring to just “American” culture? To Western culture? Stormcrow’s song could easily apply to Russian culture, or Japanese culture, or Chinese culture. So, what does “this culture” mean?

    In the song I wrote “a culture” not “this culture” so I would apply it to any culture,past or present,that damaged the land,ruined the oceans,poisoned the air and caused species to go extinct in the the quest to expand.
    The line in the song that I am the least in agreement with (which means I don’t completely agree with myself) is “there once was a culture that showed no remorse” because I don’t believe that remorse for what we have done would be enough of a motivator even if everyone suddenly felt it.
    I found it interesting that I sang the song for a friend of mine who
    is aware of our unfolding predicament and she was singing along and liked it but when we were done she asked “What was the lie that was swallowed by the culture?”

  • thestormcrow – I loved the song, I sang it to my husband even. (I love the fly version as well) It doesn’t have to make perfect sense in every line to be excellent. I wonder if I might share it around to friends and on a few other blogs I post on?

    Thanks – we need to look honestly at what we have done. I suspect if the first time we spoiled a stream, or denuded a hillside we had been struck by immense remorse as a culture we would not be in the fix we are in.

  • Relevant to the current post:
    Epic Disappointment
    By James Howard Kunstler

  • Hahahahaha, ‘In Your Favor’ ???

    Yet another troll…

    Dear Dr Phil,

    Speaking only for myself, I suggest you demote that ‘administrative assistant’ to a task more suited to their mental calibre, and take on someone a little bit smarter, because, even a superficial investigation of this blog reveals to anyone with a modicum of education that there is no ‘cult’ and there is no ‘suicide cult’ anywhere here to be found.

    ‘Unconscious’ ? as in ‘comatose’ ? what a strange sort of doctor you must be, to think that people who can write comments and argue, are ‘unconscious’.

    ‘Dangerous and unhealthy’ ? And YOU want to help ? Hahahahahaha….. and you want to do this via your ‘Show’ ? Well, how very kind, generous and thoughtful of you.

    Speaking only for myself, of course, Dr Phil, why wouldn’t anyone feel tempted to kill themselves when there are creeps like you in the world who exploit people via junk tv shows ?

    Again speaking only for myself, Dr Phil. Go fuck yourself.

    In you favor

    ulvfugl

    PS Erm, I wonder who that ‘anonymous source’ might have been ? Possibly someone with a grudge ?

  • Hey, Dr. Phil has hit the nail on the head! The human race is a suicide cult! Now it all becomes clear!

  • BC Nurse

    I have been trying to figure out what the elites are up to in light of the now obvious trends towards NTE. It seems implausible that they too are as deluded as the plebs. After all, they have been concerned with overpopulation since the 60s and the Pentegon is well aware of the dangers resulting from climate change. Moreover, as some whistle blower scientists have claimed, there is a conspiracy of silence to suppress the truth about climate change. If they are trying to suppress it, then they must be aware of it.

    At the moment, I’m starting to think that a WWIII scenario with an eventual limited nuclear exchange might be in the works. It would reverse global warming (at least for a few decades), collapse much of industrial civilization (so we would burn a lot less carbon fuel), significantly depopulate parts of the third world which are no longer relevant to market forces, and pave the way for the establishment of an Orwellian world system. This might also explain why the Russians and Chinese have been so busy building enormous subterranean facilities.

    I know this sounds terribly paranoid and assumes that some grand cabal is pulling the strings behind the matrix. Perhaps no one is in charge and it’s all randmom mayhem. But then again, perhaps these days paranoia is the best way to metanoia.

  • Depressive Lucidity, Taylor Caldwell suggested just such a cabal in Captains and Kings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captains_and_the_Kings

    Doesn’t matter anymore – Nature is a bat and before Pachamama ALL will bow down including the elites

    (Unless they have booked passage off planet to Nibiru when it passes by on Dec. 21) :)

  • I have no idea whether the “Dr. Phil” posting is a joke (though clicking on his name gives a clue), but there is a valid point there. It could be that that healthy, well adjusted people suppress or rationalize away even strong evidence that the human race is in danger of extinction, because if you can’t do that the psychological and social consequences are too dire.

    This could explain the reaction in many quarters to more mainstream views of global warming. I have a friend who is sinking alot of time and effort into a project that is supposed to conclusively prove that the data behind concerns about climate change is incorrect (because of improper adjustments to the raw data). Now in the past, these sorts of direct challenges to scientists were assumed to be prompted by scientific findings that contradicted religious teachings. With global warming, its assumed that Americans are reacting to anything that challenges car culture.

    However, if the game is really over the possibility of human extinction, of course people won’t want to deal with it! The intelligent misfits on this blog are having trouble handling the concept, I don’t know what hope there is for the socially well adjusted types.

  • From the Dr Phil Wiki page :

    “(Phil) McGraw’s advice and methods have drawn criticism from some fellow psychotherapists as well as from some laymen. McGraw’s critics regard advice given by him to be at best simplistic, and at worst, ineffective.”

  • Depressive Lucidity, one scenario I have toyed with mentally is that TPTB have been briefed on some version of Guy’s “We’re Done” essay and accepted the claims. There is no plot to cause human extinction or even some variant of the “die-off”, but there is an acceptance that its inevitable, with the consequence of not considering the long term consequences, at least on the institutions they lead, of their decisions. And this may include the halting of the efforts towards international cooperation to combat climate change!

    From the evidence presented, I think the extreme consequence of climate change are an unfortunate but avoidable possibility, but the elites don’t seem to be behaving as if they take the same view.

  • Kathy C,
    Please feel free to share the song with others.I’d be happy to know there are people out there singing it!

  • The trolls just keep coming. Ed’s another one. Keep your stinking trap shut, Ed. No one wants to the putrefaction that falls so loosely from your lips. Go fuck yourself while you’re at it. You’ve seen what I’ve done to other trolls who have haunted this blog. I’ll do the same to you if you try to cross swords with me. Get yourself together and don’t give me any shit. Are we clear?

  • Hahahaha, so, the dirty tricks start !

    That comment re Ed, was NOT from ME !

    My apologies, Ed. Someone has usurped my identity.

  • I think that the various suggestions, made over recent threads, that there was a deliberate plot to disrupt this blog appear to be confirmed.

    Why else would someone steal my identity and use it to stir up further trouble ?

  • Once near term extinction became an ever encroaching and unavoidable reality, everything, suddenly started to become irrelevant.

    Yes it is worrisome. I have often wondered who it is we are talking to when we talk to ourselves. Is it the mind of its own, or are there more than two minds in there????

    In Incognito, Eagleman contends that most of the operations of the brain are inaccessible to awareness, such that the conscious mind “is like a stowaway on a transatlantic steam ship, taking credit for the journey without acknowledging the massive engineering underfoot.”

    “you are a republic of voices tonight. Unfortunately that republic is Italy” – Jay McInerney

    “our mental life is a noisy parliament of competing factions” – Steven Pinker

    “the mind could be considered as a parliament, a debating chamber. Different factions contended, short- and long-term interests were entrenched in mutual loathing” – Ian McEwan

    “reason was made a constitutional monarch, charged with […] appointing ruling parties to office from the parliament of emotions” – Philip Rieff

    When the two cerebral hemispheres are separated surgically, two personalities become evident. The speech center is on the right side, so the left cannot talk, but can and does respond to non-verbal communication without the awareness of its fellow when the communication is hidden from the right side. And even subregions and sub-subregions function on their own. Dr. Oliver Sacks the neurologist and neuroscientist has the specific inability to recognise faces – a function that is localised to a rather small part of the cortex.

    We ain’t who “we” think we are!

  • It could be that that healthy, well adjusted people suppress or rationalize away even strong evidence that the human race is in danger of extinction, because if you can’t do that the psychological and social consequences are too dire.

    That depends on what one considers “healthy” and “well adjusted”. Some have swept the equivalent of landfills under their mental rug. A rare few have shaken out the rug.

  • “Why else would someone steal my identity and use it to stir up further trouble ?” ulvfugl

    Because we are dealing with spoiled infantile brats; but you know that.

    When I first read the comment attributed to you, ulvfugl, it surprised me, but the boasting about what you’d done to other trolls in this space was a dead giveaway. You’ve never claimed anything like that.

  • One of the criticisms of American psychology by some European analysts is that it is oriented to making the individual “well adjusted” and “functional” in society.

    But what does it mean to be a well adjusted camp guard at Auschwitz?

    It seems to me that the decision to imbibe the happy Dr. Phil pill in North America is to voluntarily drown in the spiritual poison of the Capitalist matrix. Terms like “happy” and “well adjusted” are simply psycho-chemical commodities that are sold in the market place of a system that is predicated on the destruction of life and the induced indifference to that destruction.

    So, by all means, be maladjusted. Depression and rage at Treblinka were healthy responses to that reality.

  • Here is an excerpt from a review of a little book that I recently read called “Dead Man Working.” I think some of the folks here might appreciate its thesis.

    “Carl Cederstrom and Peter Fleming’s Dead Man Working (Zer0) is an interesting account of living and working in a dead world. It diagnoses several affective elements of the managerial co-option of life. Cederstrom and Fleming argue that life in a society dominated by capitalist realism becomes one in which the divide between life and work is completely obliterated where all that remains is life-work and the wait for the approaching tsunami, for the end of capital (which may very well co-arrive with the end of civilization). Following the flood of capitalist control what remains is the affectively gray wait for the end.”

    https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Man-Working-Carl-Cederstrom/dp/1780991568

  • Thank you, Judy, much appreciated.

  • ulvfugl, you are welcome.

  • Methinks this kind of DIY bio-engineering is a massive disaster in the making…

    It’s beyond my comprehension that otherwise intelligent people, like John Robb and Ran Prieur, are enthusiastic. I’m not certain, but I think the justification is to wrench control away from Big Pharma, but at least Big Pharma are still slightly accountable, whereas this kind of ‘let’s see what happens’ tinkering fills me with horror at what the results could be…

    http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/541627-Hello-and-an-MDPV-Question?p=9179324&viewfull=1#post9179324

  • ‘China set for ‘revolution’ in nuclear power’

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/china-set-for-revolution-in-nuclear-power-20121119-29m4t.html

    A quote:

    CHINA is on track to become the world’s largest generator of nuclear power between now and some time in the 2020s, a senior Rio Tinto executive says.

    Rio Tinto Energy’s general manager of markets and industry analysis, Stephen Wilson, said China was now about the eighth or ninth largest nuclear energy producer.

    By the end of the decade, China was expected to leap to the number two position, he said, before overtaking the US in the 2020s, producing 100 gigawatts of power.

    ”Their vision is to produce 400 gigawatts of nuclear power by 2050. That’s been publicly stated by Chinese officials,” Mr Wilson told the Australian Institute of Energy national conference in Sydney yesterday. ”That’s more than the whole world has got today.”

    Advertisement The growth in nuclear energy in China would come from new third generation power plants that produced electricity more cheaply than coal and gas plants in coastal China.

    ”What we are looking at in China now is a situation where it is the very early stages of a very significant nuclear build program,” Mr Wilson said. ”This is a quiet revolution.”

    Mr Wilson noted Japan’s reduced nuclear energy production after the Fukushima nuclear disaster, as well as moves from countries such as Germany and Switzerland to cut back on nuclear energy production.

    But despite the build-up in nuclear power, Mr Wilson said China, as well as India, would continue to rely heavily on coal for the bulk of its electricity needs and to keep up with growing demand.

    Mr Wilson said meeting the rising energy demand of billions of people would require improvements in energy efficiency and new resources. ”We hope there will be significant improvements, significant contributions from energy efficiency, but there will need to be growth in energy supply.””

    And the reactors they are describing are the liquid Sulphur coolant kind, that explode when the sulphur hits the air if there is a leak.

    All the present generation of reactors have cross contamination of coolant water and internal water, and to think it will be any safer is simply childish.

    Deep fried human anyone??

    Also it is very interesting to hear that low Oxygen leads to higher cancer rates, on top of rising background radiation too.

    !!!

  • someone here please respond to the Dr.Phil comment. I would love to see how such an episode would play out, especially on msm! ulvfugle, I promote you as his guest…..give ‘im a piece of your mind! lol

  • Ryan

    It may be interesting I agree, however, you can bet with what he already has put up, he will frame the contents of NBL as a crank ideology doomers.

    But it may be a way to get the message out – who knows?

    But it would not work without Guy there, and that would be good to see him go head to head with Dr Phil.

    Then he might get a play on Oprah, or has she retired?

    My guess is it is bait, and TPTB are trying to sucker NBL into emerging into the mainstream under heavy framing and nutjob criticism, rather than the realistic public forums like being interviewed by a real reporter in more than a 1 minute grab.

    I sense this is the moment for the NTE paypoad to be delivered to the many folk who are unaware of the terminator ahead.

    Hard work from Guy is paying off, but you can bet TPTB will throw some significant flack Guy’s way, and I for one will stand to be counted if need be.
    Count me in ulvfugl.

    !!!

  • someone here please respond to the Dr.Phil comment. I would love to see how such an episode would play out, especially on msm!

    How about this? Notwithstanding the possibility of margaritas ante porcos…..

    Panchadasi
    By Sri Vidyaranya Swami
    Translated by Swami Swahananda

  • NBL is a different place with fewer wafts and less flinging (albeit well-referenced).

  • It is clear (and should be clear when you post comments) that anyone can post on any name they want and show as website any website they want. The e-mail address cannot be faked unless you happen to know the other’s e-mail, but since it is not published when the comment is published we readers have no way of knowing what e-address is used. Many people have multiple e-mails and can create free e-mails easily.

    Clearly someone hijacked ulvfugl and probably used Dr. Phil’s website unbeknownst to him -not hard to guess who. No doubt this will continue for a while.

  • It was mentioned that it’s possible for the brain to not recognize faces. To the rest of us that does not seem possible. I forget names easily but never a face. Likewise, there are some very intelligent people who can look at a controlled demolition and not see it. Kunstler and Greer are two that come to mind. They don’t see it and never will but I still read their stuff. They think in words, not pictures. Here on the farm I must be careful not to hire anyone that thinks in words. They break everything and in general get along poorly. They just don’t “get” how things work and they never will.

    Regarding Dr. Phil, I don’t watch TV so I don’t know the man much, but if he were presented with the facts, data, and the physics of global warming (it’s all physics, not politics, or words) would he be even able to understand it? I have wondered sometimes (when I pinch myself) if we just believe this NTE because all the rest believe it. Do we go along just to be accepted? Is it just a meme? Would a person like Phil see it this way, as a cult, and not see the data and how it works? How would he respond to the data. I have seen his show and he is good at what he does. It would take a powerful person to stand up to him. The audience would be on his side all the way. They are likely the type that think in words and feelings too. If they could see what TV is all about, they wouldn’t be there. By words I mean abstractions, not the real thing.

    My grandfather was school superintendent of a large school system but couldn’t fill a fountain pen. I assume that everyone knows what a fountain pen is. He retired and helped out on the home farm. He was nearly worthless on the farm but he could stop a fight. Guess that made him worth something. Maybe I should invite Dr. Phil to work on my farm for a week to see if he can see how things work. We’ll take videos. It usually takes about 5 minutes to know the answer. Left or right?

    David
    Truth is what works.

  • Hey, lookie here (right on cue, as we expected but others continue to doubt):

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2235440/Earth-moving-4-0-C-temperature-rise-climate-scientists-warn.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    Of course this and other “realizations” will come, it now being far too late to DO anything about them. We’ll just be ticking off these mileposts to our doom as we continue along.

  • The Pilot Varsity fountain pen is marketed as a disposable fountain pen, but although the carton also carries the word “Refillable”, no instructions are provided on how to refill it.

    How to refill your Pilot Varsity

  • An objective way to gauge the validity of the Doom & Gloom forecasts:

    Charting Mankind’s Arctic Methane Emission Exponential Expressway to Total Extinction in the Next 50 Years

    “As a consequence, the enhanced global warming will melt the global ice sheets at a fast increasing rate causing the sea level to begin rising at 15.182 cm/yr in the first few years after 2015 giving an accurate way of gauging the worldwide continental ice loss.”

    Declining food supply although more serious, will not equally affect everyone.

  • by Richard Heinberg
    http://carolynbaker.net/2012/11/15/you-cant-say-that-by-richard-heinberg/

    Snippet below from the conclusion

    “So the real trade-off, the real choice we face, is not between climate protection on one hand and economic growth on the other. It’s between planned economic contraction (with government managing the post-carbon transition through infrastructure investment and useful make-work programs) as a possible but unlikely strategy, and unplanned, unmanaged economic and environmental collapse as our default scenario.

    Mainstream environmental organizations don’t want to mention any of this because they don’t want to be pilloried as “anti-growth” or “socialist” by right-wing politicians and powerful free-market think tanks. The president won’t touch it with a forty-foot pole, for the same reasons.

    Some of us are under no such constraint.<b< We can tell it like it is—and we might as well do so. What do we have to lose, other than illusions?“

  • Dave, there are even worse brain syndromes that not recognizing faces. Some people from brain injury think that an arm or leg does not belong to them and one doctor made a living for a while cutting off the arm of leg at the request of those people until he was made to give that up. Can you imagine seeing your arm and thinking it belongs to someone else so strongly that you wanted it cut off? Brain’s a strange piece of equipment that can hold strange beliefs such as Cotard’s syndrome. Clearly our brain is quite capable of creating false beliefs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion
    “The Cotard delusion, Cotard’s syndrome, or Walking Corpse Syndrome[1] is a rare mental disorder in which people hold a delusional belief that they are dead (either figuratively or literally), do not exist, are putrefying, or have lost their blood or internal organs. In rare instances, it can include delusions of immortality.[2]”

    Or on the other hand these are the ones with true beliefs and those of us who believe we exist are the ones with false beliefs :)

  • i am a long time reader and first time poster here and i must say that i am disgusted by the intolerance shown to those who disagree even if that disagreement is subtle. it’s turned me off and i think there is some justification in calling what i’ve witnessed cultish behavior. it’s good for people’s views to be challenged and for people to disagree and it seems the message now is that no amount of disagreement will be tolerated. i’m not sure i want to visit this blog and read the comments of a small group of people who have closed their minds to the world and the larger reality and that group now includes guy. it’s no way to be as we approach what could be the end of life as we know it. in fact it should be the opposite. we should be more open and embracing rather than hostile and resistant. as far as i’m concerned the recent turn of events at this blog have shown me a side of it i didn’t know existed. i don’t like it and i don’t want to be associated with it. i posted because i wanted others who are reading and not posting who feel the same as i do to know they are not alone in their thoughts and feelings and that those who do post in support of shutting people down do not speak for all of us. enjoy your echo chamber.