Into the heartland

I’m in the nation’s heartland deep freeze with my wife and ancient dog. We drove from the mud hut to eastern Nebraska for a brief familial visit.

I’m reminded of a previous trip to America’s breadbasket. Thoreau’s classic words came to mind as I stood in a kitchen slightly larger than the house I occupy. A sign on the wall read, “Simplify.” I nearly recommended, as a decent start, throwing away the nearby sign reading, “Simplify: Throw Everything Out.”

On the current adventure, which began six days ago, we drove across the plains of San Augustin, home of the Very Large Array (VLA). The VLA brings to mind how much time, energy, and fiat currency we spend looking for answers out there. As if our problems and predicaments can be solved if we just look long enough into deep space (hence into deep time). Maybe the aliens will save us, if we behave.

Or maybe not. Perhaps we could have spent all that time, energy, and fiat currency looking inward instead. I suspect the costs would have been lower in every case, and the rewards greater.

Very Large Array

We spent the night in Dodge City, Kansas and reached our destination the following day. As such, we were able to get the hell out of Dodge and also proclaim we’re not in Kansas any more, all in the same day. Obviously, the twin proclamations made the trip worthwhile.

Turning my own thoughts inward in the wake of the solstice, I wrote the following ode to the living planet. Channeling Nero, I share it here, and ask for yours in return.

Winter solstice

I thought my darkest day was me, running to you,
forsaking the life I loved.

That hopeful day, so long ago, was challenging,
but not nearly as difficult as this.

The only thing worse than me running way
is this society pushing Nature away.

When I ran away I had hope for the living planet
and I got along fine.

When we push Nature away, we’re deep in a well
and we’ve destroyed all that matters on this lonely planet.

This pain is greater than I could have imagined,
perhaps worse than I can bear.

My heart’s been shattered, ripped out,
and is lying in pieces on the indifferent ground.

I don’t know what to do and I don’t know what I want
but I know I don’t want this.

It’s not just that I’m in love with the living planet,
although that alone would be profound.

It’s that I love her madly, deeply, uncontrollably,
which causes entirely too much pain.

I miss her so, so badly.
I yearn for signs of her wit.

I miss her so, so badly.
I long to gaze into her wild places.

I miss her so, so badly.
I think about her every waking minute.

During the rare moments of fitful sleep
she fills my dreams.

I want to see her and hear her and smell her and feel her
and touch her and taste her.

I want to share what we used to share
and know what we used to know
when we were human animals,
not believing we were gods.

More than she could ever know,
I miss her, as she fades away.

More than she could ever know,
I love her, as she is pummeled to oblivion.

More than she could ever know,
I need her — we need her — as we collectively commit ecocide.

I’ve long recognized the need to protect what we love.
Either I have little company or we hate Nature.

Maybe both.

The days grow longer now
but not brighter.

____________________

My 18 December 2012 radio interview on the Enviro show in Florence, Massachusetts was archived here yesterday.

Last month’s presentation in Louisville has been the subject of considerable online babble. A recent essay, linked here, provides a compelling overview.

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Comments 237

  • You’re really coming into focus, Guy. Nice to see.

  • So sad, but even worse for those who don’t understand what is happening. Just sad.

  • Here’s my contribution:

    The Failure of Science Fiction

    We were all going to fly to work every day in our little atomic ships
    There were entire worlds to conquer and terraform to our bidding
    The finest fruits of agricultural planets would be flown to every home
    And people of every race would staff the exploration of other galaxies

    Glorious battles would be fought by men and women equal in every way
    Against noble aliens who followed all the rules of war and tested our strength
    But lost in the end as we graciously granted them dominion over their worlds
    And settled down to study them in hopes of finding the secret of Dog

    Unlimited energy would be ours for the taking and bent to our mastery
    Physics, biology, chemistry, astronomy, and medicine would hold no mysteries
    To people who could crush knowledge out of the smallest particles of the universe
    And teach children to scan the skies with the most powerful of instruments

    Almighty technology would solve all problems, both the big and the small
    And wondrous toys would delight and amuse and teach without learning
    Uncounted generations would tame the Biggest Bang and even learn to forget
    The little blue planet that gave them birth and sent them out to the edge of forever

    Empires would come and go, civilizations would rise and fall, in upward march
    All forward, ever forward, facing only easily surmountable barriers and always
    Led by brave and inspiring leaders, men and women who saw further than others
    And led us through the difficult times with their eyes on vision of future victories

    Sex is easy and free, and the unlimited universe can support all with rich resources
    With only a few dark years the future seems uncannily like the past, with spaceships
    Today’s problems solved, they wrote about the problems of the future
    That had to be solved by the end of the book or readers angry and authors starve

    Human nature had to be left exactly as we know it now in this vision of the future
    Because if it wasn’t, we couldn’t enjoy the stories, identify with some character
    Wish for the hero to get the girl, root for the villain, feel sorry for the sidekick
    And dream of a time when we would scan the heavens for new planets to pillage

    Now here we are in someone’s unbidden future with only a few of those toys
    They were written about so often that we all know what a ray gun looks like
    And what happened when we got this far along the bright path to the future?
    We worked feverishly on the technologies and forgot about human nature

    Human nature has always used every new tool for personal short term ends
    And not to the benefit of the species from whom the breath was given life
    So when the end of the world was in the hands of a primate in a suit
    He looked at his neighbour, stuck out his tongue, and pressed the button

    He saw that there were few fish, but remembered how good they tasted
    And kept on fishing until the sea was empty and then blamed his neighbour
    He bombed his neighbours back to the Stone Age to unearth more drugs
    To feed the unceasing useless motion that passed as purposeful living

    He saw that the little girls were pretty and no one could stop any man
    From taking every one he pleased and using them as his fantasies said he could
    All fantasies were his reality and the future would take care of itself
    Because the liquid black drug had given him riches and would do so forever

    He had the wits to stop the heat that burned up the land and the plants
    But there was no money in such thinking, so he kept the technology from being used
    Big tools in big hands with small minds and petty thoughts don’t reach the stars
    They die in their own filth and take everyone else with them, screaming

    Once upon a time there were so many rats that fleas multiplied exponentially
    And sucked the rich blood of fat rodents until they nearly exploded
    In hedonistic revelry and ecstatic rituals of blood worship and orgiastic release
    Until the rat population crashed and the warmth, blood and fur were gone

    And the fleas were wiped out.

  • It is extraordinary how our strongest peak experience in life is actually lived in the deepest trough.

    You’ve spoken so bravely to my gravest intellectual experience, Guy. Now you have taken my heart along into the trough with yours.

  • could it have really gone any other way?

    from the beginning of totalitarian agriculture

    what we call civilization

    the advent of ‘owning’ property, space, tangible things above and below the ground

    this appears to have been the path we we’re meant to go down.

    many things could have been handled differently, but there was only ever a few that saw that would be the wise choice.

    so they were either outnumbered or didn’t try hard enough to stop it all

    or they bought into a system, believing they could exist within it and actually effect true change

    but the end result is the same

    it’s here, it’s happening and it just really looks like it couldn’t have gone any other way.

  • Watching those negotiate with nature will at the very least give me a moment to smile.

  • I Am The Forest
    written and recorded by Willie Nelson
    [3/4 time]

    C F C
    I’ll always be with you for as long as you please
    G7 C
    For I am the forest but you are the trees
    F C
    I’m empty without you so come grow within me
    G7 C
    For I am the forest and you are the trees

    G7 C
    And the heavens need ro-mance so love never dies
    D7 G7
    You’ll be the stars dear and I’ll be the sky
    C F C
    And should any of this find us let them all be forewarned
    G7 C
    That you are the thunder and I am the storm

    F C
    And I’ll always be with you for as long as you please
    G7 C
    For I am the forest and you are the trees

    F C
    I’ll always be with you for as long as you please
    G7 C
    For I am the forest but you are the trees

  • What would be the terms for this life of a newborn now.
    Only Titans for parents could save the infant from the end, just now begun.
    No cloister suffices now, nor citadel remains,
    That will abate the coming tempest and the rain.
    Now is the moment to be…
    For the waiting is all done.
    Rise your heart and lower your gaze,
    Take aim at the moment and find no solace in that rain,
    Refresh you, yes, but drive you forth it must,
    Feel the thumping of your ancestors, just beneath your skin,
    They scream a deadly chorus:

    “Get on! Ho, get on and live the universal terms we all agreed!
    Take your Heart to the world and square it fully with the challenge of your time.
    Grant no quarter to the illusion of foe, for we got to now by the warp and woof of each others giving.
    Grow your Heart in the refusal, and bind your hands to hold the line, For no one of us, who ever lived and gave our essence for your birth can remain silent with the carnage on the road you face ahead.
    Honour us, and your future kin.
    Give it all, NOW, and never stop,
    Or all we ever lived for is the shame.”

    So found I the receiver of the message,
    Mercury nowhere to be found,
    When I looked he slipped by me whispered and darted beyond a cloud.
    The message?… is the terms we have now.
    The terms of why we live on this great staging ground,
    The coil of embodied light,
    We must rise to realise now.
    I still hear them calling, those ancients, just an echo now,
    Voices from the edge of eternity….

    “Get on! Ho, get on and live the universal terms we all agreed!
    Your body is the contract, go now and honour the terms, for life is all,
    Into the night of unknown outcome,
    Into the moment, that is all.
    We will be calling across time,
    Yet unbroken chains of life you must uphold ….
    No one but you, now, is left for the growing,
    Get on, and live the universal terms we all agreed!”

  • Wow!!!

    Not only is 2012 the hottest year on record in the US, it beat the previous record (1998) by almost a full degree!!!!
    FYI, there is only a four degree difference between the hottest and coldest years ever recorded.

    http://www.climatecentral.org/news/hurricane-sandy-tops-list-of-2012-extreme-weather-and-climate-events-15405/P4

  • According to NASA, we may not want to depend on benevolent ETs to save us from ourselves. ETs may be more inclined to eliminate mankind in order to prevent the mass extinction of all other life. NASA’s Planetary Sciences Division issued a report warning that ETs might be compelled to exterminate human beings in order to prevent the destruction of Earth’s life support system.

    Excerpts taken from The Guardian:

    “Rising greenhouse emissions may tip off aliens that we are a rapidly expanding threat, warns a report for Nasa

    It may not rank as the most compelling reason to curb greenhouse gases, but reducing our emissions might just save humanity from a pre-emptive alien attack, scientists claim.

    Watching from afar, extraterrestrial beings might view changes in Earth’s atmosphere as symptomatic of a civilization growing out of control – and take drastic action to keep us from becoming a more serious threat, the researchers explain.

    The authors warn that extraterrestrials may be wary of civilizations that expand very rapidly, as these may be prone to destroy other life as they grow, just as humans have pushed species to extinction on Earth. In the most extreme scenario, aliens might choose to destroy humanity to protect the Earth’s biodiversity.

    “A preemptive strike would be particularly likely in the early phases of our expansion because a civilization may become increasingly difficult to destroy as it continues to expand. Humanity may just now be entering the period in which its rapid civilisational expansion could be detected by an ETI because our expansion is changing the composition of the Earth’s atmosphere, via greenhouse gas emissions,” the report states.

    “Green” aliens might object to the environmental damage humans have caused on Earth and wipe us out to save the planet. “These scenarios give us reason to limit our growth and reduce our impact on global ecosystems. It would be particularly important for us to limit our emissions of greenhouse gases, since atmospheric composition can be observed from other planets,” the authors write.”

  • Interstellar human travel at realistic (not Star Trek) speeds will require taking along and successfully maintaining closed biospheric ecosystems for many centuries to millennia. And interstellar travel would be de rigueur to find sufficiently compatible exoplanets to meet our needs for habitability.

    However the closed biosphere experiments to date have lasted only a year or two before running into trouble. On the other hand, the real biosphere seems more and more like an unplanned experiment gone very – nay fatally – awry.

  • Being a realist has become very depressing but I suppose that was actually a result maturing enough to be able to see the man behind the mask and the charade of “society” in America. As a child of the 60’s and 70’s I too was “born in captivity” (what a perfect phrase). It’s no wonder this society has become so sick. Imagine what it was like to live in a world reminiscent of “The Hobbit” although I agreee there were always variations of “wargs” and “orcs” during earlier times but that was all part of the true human experience right? Someone else said that humans now live incredibly trivial and meaningless lives. Our society has given us the non-chemical version of Prozac, no fear, no risk, no reward and no pleasure. As an engineer I think it’s time to reinvent myself as an “Un-gineer” as in…“Un-gineer”…An individual trained, skilled and experienced in the art and science of deconstruction. One who can safely disassemble the infrastructure of a complex but dying civilization in order to restore the land to natural habitat thereby allowing a return to a balanced ecology wherein humanity plays but a small part. Thanks for all you do Guy and when are you next coming to Michigan again? There is a big interest in urban gardening in Detroit as the people here have realized that industry is NEVER coming back (thank goodness). Do you know Dave Foreman from the rewilding institute? http://rewilding.org/rewildit/

    Lastly…a link to the best and most truthful video that incorporates Guy’s data into its content for your review. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2em1x2j9-o

    I think I need to watch “The Road” again. Fred in Michigan

  • Frank

    What Aliens?

    Where are these damn Aliens we keep hearing and speaking about?

    You seem to be channelling the storline of the 1951 science fiction film, ‘The Day the Earth Stood Still’.

    Remember the second term in the phrase ‘Science FICTION’ is fiction.

    Not many people really get the Alien movies. They reveal what WE become when we decide to give in to the robotic replicating of ourselves without thought of why and the consequences of industrial civilisation.

    The only aliens are US, or at least when ego prevails.

    Note the birth of the Alien ensures the explosion of the host’s heart -no humanity left there – just a emotionless, highly tuned survival organism.

    We are the Aliens, no need to look very far.

  • Fer 9/11 conspiracy nutz:

  • Robin Datta

    Interesting how not one mention in the entire video of D_ck Ch__ey?
    DC was at the time in an office somewhere below the Wh_te H__se situation r__m, with a computer terminal that overrode all simulation and control structures that were in use that morning, or so many other sources have said.

    Great video BTW, and will anything be done?

  • We love this beautiful planet. It is made beautiful (to us) because of life. It is not stark like the moon, or Mars. It is covered with a myriad of colors, shapes, forms, movement, interconnections. As Raffi so beautifully sings Its a Big Beautiful Planet in the Sky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk9aCy7vXs0

    Life comes with a terrible cost. Life means death. Without life there is no death. Bacteria engulf other bacteria. The fox rips the baby rabbit apart and the rabbit screams. The lion stalks the antelope and the whole herd becomes unsettled and afraid. The chimpanzee tribe attacks another tribe and kills or runs off the other tribe taking over its territory. The human finds all this both beautiful and horrifying because this one species knows early on it must die. This is the forbidden knowledge. This is the angst that drives the human to conquer all and so extinct itself.

    Perhaps it could go no other way. We are the creatures who knew too much. The beauty will go. The creatures that loved it will exit the stage. Possibly all life will end. But so too then will death at least on this planet.

    Knowing that we humans are the author of so much evil I can’t really mourn our passing. Children are sold or stolen into lives of sexual slavery. Humans starve to death. Humans are tortured. Humans have been burned alive, made into slaves, been mutilated for even such things as keeping a males voice high. Children have been forced to become soldiers.

    It looks like in the end we will defeat death, the only way death can be defeated, by ending life. Perhaps in this world made beautiful by life, but cursed by the inevitable consequence of life, suffering and death, we evolved to end the suffering.

    I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars.
    Charles Darwin

  • I’ve been digging through various Sandy Hook related stuff. I agree with what this guy says I call bullshit on this entire Sandy Hook shooting hoax. We are being fed a pack of carefully scripted lies by evil people with a pre-determined agenda. They manufacture our reality, targeting our emotions and gullible nature, in order to advance their political and social agenda. Don’t be deceived. Trouble is, of the many theories on offer, i have yet to be convinced who ‘they’ are, and what the ‘political and social agenda’ really is… I still have an open mind on those questions.

    http://johnfriendsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/calling-bullshit-on-sandy-hook-hoax.html

    Thanks for the 9/11 video Robin, an interesting update.

  • Here’s a less anti jewish blog making a similar point.

    http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/how-the-newtown-massacre-became-a-mind-control-television-event/

    I must say, the videos of the happy smiley families who have supposedly just had a child murdered do freak me out. I’ve never seen anything like that in whole my life. I mean, real bereaved people in real life are not like that, are they ? At least, not in my experience. So totally weird, beyond my comprehension.

  • The “heart”land is showing signs of arrhythmia [digression from normal rhythms of food production from normal rhythms of climate to abnormal rhythms like droughts due to climate arrhythmia] and it is starting to affect the rest of the body [food price increases in the pipeline]. Doctors are thinking of addressing this problem with the help of geo-engineers.

  • The idea of a “God” in Darwin’s or any other similar sense continues fraught with the same problems.

    The concept of “the One without a second” in the nontheistic nondual traditions, (also in the Kabbalah) excludes any”thing” (a second) from existing concomitantly. The diverse universe, analogous to a movie projected on a screen, contains both good and evil, while the screen itself carries neither.

  • I quoted Darwin, not because of the God part, but because Darwin could see that the natural world is rife with horrific ways for each species to try to perpetuate itself. Nature is full of horror. It is also full of wonder. Is the horror worth the wonder? If not the passing of this world of life perhaps is OK. No more sharks gulping down fleeing fish. No more wasps laying their eggs on living caterpillars. No more hawks eating chickens alive. No more humans making slaves of other humans. No more tetanus bacteria delivering a painful end. All this beauty we don’t want to end is also built on each one eat one in some way or other.

    After total extinction disease and death will finally be defeated.

    Maybe it is just my way of coping with NTE but one cannot deny that the beautiful natural world we mourn is full of one creature eating another day after day

    In a single year, a family of barn owls will eat 20,000 mice along with large insects, she said. And that’s with just one clutch. She added organic growers can eliminate rodent and large insect controls on their crops when barn owls do their job
    http://www.lakechelanmirror.com/print.asp?ArticleID=2368&SectionID=5&SubSectionID=5

    From our perspective that is good, we don’t like mice eating our food, and we find owls beautiful, majestic, mice less so. But how does it feel to the mouse when those talon crash into its body????

    So much pain….

  • Ffs, I sometimes begin to think that the whole idea of America is fake, a hoax, a simulacrum… turns out that the ‘families’, whatever, in tv interviews, with Obama, etc, don’t actually need to be the genuine item at all, because, it was decided, sometime ago, that it would be stressful to ask actual real people to endure tv interviews, so there’s now agencies which supply trained actors to crisis scenes, like mall shootings, fully prepared to make statements to the press, whatever, as necessary, so no wonder these youtube clips of ‘grieving bereaved parents’ look like tv commercials for breakfast cereal, that’s what they fucking well are… so how long has this been going on ? 9/11 ? and how far is it going to go ? Hahahaha, I suppose you could argue it started with Regan pretending to be a President, – but it means NOTHING that appears on video can ever be trusted as genuine, can it….

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/active-shooter-crisis-actors-target-110421683.html

  • ulvfugl, I’ve been struggling with the question about who “THEY” are for quite some time. It seems clear that there are shadowy elements inside/behind the US government/corporate establishment. There is also indisputable evidence that Anglo-Amerikan intelligence sector (and probably other groups we are unable to identify) have been researching mind-control for the last 60 years. It is unlikely that they would have invested some much time and energy on mind-control, psyops et cetera, and not used them. The young Lanza, who is an empty cipher on which the media can project any image it likes, smells like a classic mind-puppet patsy.

    TPTB know that the current system and inflated levels of prosperity in the West are unsustainable due to resource depletion and an economic ponzi scheme that is on its last leg. Since they can’t grow the economy due to physical limits, they cannot keep creating more debt based on the prospect of future growth. I think that this much is clear to them, regardless of whether they understand the lethality of climate change.

    The agenda, imo, is to begin the process of disarming, disempowering, and discouraging the Amerikan masses so that when the bottom falls out and the black shirts take to the streets, the majority will become docile and accept their new servile status in the coming feudal system. They have already installed a legal structure that gives the president dictatorial powers in the event of a “crisis”; so we are at least half way to a formal police state.

    Unfortunately, many of the people who understand that a totalitarian system is being constructed behind the scenes are anti-semitic wack jobs who blame everyone from Jews to hyperdimensional lizards for our problems. For the last 10 thousand years “civilized” humans have been living in hierarchical authoritarian societies. I think we are experiencing the logical and exponential expansion of this logic which will only become more extreme as the bio-physical foundations of the hive are eroded.

    It’s hard to feel bad about the unraveling of a system which has been an ominicidal monster so that a small minority of humans could live in an artificial cocoon of hedonistic delusions.

  • Peak oil did not occur soon enough to ward off catastrophic climate change. It now seems to have made the situation worse by causing a shift towards dirtier unconventional fossil fuels. There is no end to the insanity. T

    … studies show that when methane leakages are incorporated into an assessment of shale gas’ CO2 emissions, natural gas could even surpass coal in terms of overall climate impact. As for tar sands and oil shales, emissions are 1.2 to 1.75 times higher than for conventional oil. No wonder the IEA’s chief economist Fatih Birol remarked pessimistically that “the world is going in the wrong direction in terms of climate change.”

    http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-12-21/the-great-oil-swindle-why-the-new-black-gold-rush-leads-off-a-fiscal-cliff

  • I have always found the idea that we could repopulate other planets quite laughable. For one, 90% of our cellular recyling involves terrestrial organisms which have evolved on planet earth. How are we going to remain human without 90% of our cells?

  • Kathy C Says: Knowing that we humans are the author of so much evil I can’t really mourn our passing.

    Rationalizing Extinction

    Sometimes, oppression I see
    Punctures superficiality:
    Overwhelming rage
    No one can assuage
    Helps make it O.K. with me.

  • Since a poetic inward look–traveling into the land of the heart–is invited by this post, as a comment, a contribution: http://home.roadrunner.com/~robie/opento/Poems/freedom.html

    These are the lyrics of two songs about freedom written a day apart and suggest, to me, that the inward, given what is valued within CapitalismFail (and withstanding motivated reasoning functioning as both a savior and sycophant), is costly.

    And another set of lyrics about our choices and motivated reasoning have allowed us to make that can be sung to the tune of Joni Mitchell’s “Urge For Goin'”. Early this past March a flock of geese headed north became the muse.

    suffer’n’s settl’n in

    I woke up today and found, frost gone from the ground
    And also in the frozen north, the summer’s ice not found
    And when the traitor sun does warm
    Where ‘fore it’s lows did hold the cold—not this new norm
    I get that we are dying, and all we do is lie
    And I get that we are lying, when the greenhouse gas is on the rise,
    Wintertime reduced in size, suffer’n’s settl’n in.

    And in my summertime I dreamed, a summer colored lie
    And all my friends and I agreed, of warnings, not to spy.
    But when up north the change afoot,
    Comes stomping down to trample all my best laid plans
    I get that we are dying, and all we do is lie
    And I get that we are lying, when the greenhouse gas is on the rise,
    Wintertime reduced in size, suffer’n’s settl’n in.

    And the ‘warriors’—the climatehawks—are wishing for the past
    ‘Cause all that lives is dying, for death its life we fast.
    See the geese in chevron flight, headed north a month before they used to go
    For them there is no lying, the warmth is on the rise
    They don’t get that we are dying, of the greenhouse gas no means apprise,
    Nor wintertime’s new reduced size, nor suffer’n’s settl’n in.

    But I’ll power up my ‘lectric car, made from burning coal
    Or just use a ‘better’ one—to prove I’ve got no soul
    I like to go back to the days
    When self-restraint was seen within a purple haze
    But I get that I was dying, and all I do is lie
    And I get that I aint trying, while the greenhouse gas is on the rise,
    Empire’s reach is oversized, suffer’n ‘s settl’n in.
    And I get that we aren’t trying, while the greenhouse gas is on the rise,
    Wintertime reduced in size, suffer’n’s settl’n in, suffer’n’s settl’n in.

    lyrics cc 2012   greg robie

  • BtD – yeah that is what I meant to say 🙂

  • I can understand that it’s useful to train emergency services by simulating disaster situations of all sorts, I’m sure it’s very helpful to work through procedures and foresee problems and so forth… no problem. But something seems to have gone wrong, when fact and fiction get blended. Can’t find the link, but there was mention of a simulated atrocity training exercise at SH, that ended on the day of the real atrocity… kinda weird… anyway… surely, if the tv is interviewing actors, not real people, that should be made clear, on the screen, otherwise it’s deceit and deception.

    “Visionbox Crisis Actors are trained in criminal and victim behavior, and bring intense realism to simulated mass casualty incidents in public places.”

    So, you’re in ‘a public place’, and you walk around the corner, and there’s dead bodies and blood and people running around screaming and guns…. and it’s all fake ? or not ? What could possibly go wrong ? What if you are armed and pull a gun ? and who is paying for this crap ? … and these guys doing this think that they are “…contributing to the complexity and meaning of the human condition…” yeah, fer sure, like, um, performance art, except that, when the 7/7 London tube bombings happened, there was a training exercise going on, to check out procedures for… yes, tube train terrorist bombing… likewise, 9/11, NORAD simulation, 10 plus training exercises, so ‘training’ can be used as cover and smokescreen for the real thing…
    …and they have video from Aurora theatre shooting, advertising their service, ffs…

  • Here’s the link I couldn’t find, re the ‘training exercise’ that ended on the day of the massacre. Seems odd.
    http://www.ithacaindy.com/2012/12/19/sandy-hook-ithaca-police.html

  • This video is on youtube as from Associated Press, under the heading ‘The search for Colo. theatre shooting victims’, with the note Family and friends gather at Gateway High School in Aurora, Colo. in search of news about loved ones missing after a shooting a movie theater. Those with family members not listed as being at hospitals filed a missing persons report.

    But Crisis Actors have it on their website as an example of their work !
    Those people in the video are THEIR EMPLOYEES, they are actors, nothing to do with ‘family of the victims’….

  • Kathy C: What do you make of this?

    http://earthsky.org/earth/gift-giving-wild-dolphins-to-humans-in-australia

    (this is the conclusion of the interesting short article)
    Bottom line: On 23 occasions over the past several years, wild dolphins were observed giving gifts to humans at the Tangalooma Island Resort in Australia. The gifts included eels, tuna, squid, an octopus and an assortment of many other types of different fin fish. A report describing this rare food sharing behavior in wild dolphins was published on December 4, 2012 in the journal Anthrozoös: A Multidisciplinary Journal of the Interactions of People & Animals.

    Greg: check this out (though i’m sure you know this, it was news to me)

    http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2012/12/on-origin-of-bully-religion.html

    Regular readers who have read those posts know that Dredd Blog equates the religions of any military empire with Mithraism, which to most observers, including young cadets, is indistinguishable from what the military calls Christianity.

    “Mithraism was quite often noted by many historians for its many astonishing similarities to Christianity” (Mithraism – Univ. of Chicago).

    and this re-write of some of Jesus’s speeches for today’s consumer @ HP:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-james-martin-sj/more-parables-for-our-times_b_2352090.html

    (like this one, that opens the article)

    The Smart Samaritan

    1. Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 2. Jesus said to him, “What is written in the Law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 3. And Jesus said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.” 4. But wanting to justify himself, he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

    5. Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell into the hands of robbers. Fortunately, the man from Jerusalem was no fool and was carrying a big wooden club. So he beat the robbers senseless. Just then, a Samaritan came by to help him. 6. The man said to the Samaritan, “Don’t worry. They got what they deserved.” Later, though, the robbers’ friends waylaid the man. Together they had four clubs, so they beat up the man from Jerusalem. 7. Immediately the Samaritan, who had now learned a lesson, ran away, and sold his field, and with the money he purchased ten clubs. 8. The Samaritan armed his entire family, including his wives, his sons, his slaves and all his cattle and sheep. Among his heavily armed family was his elder son, who was angry at his father for not treating him as well his younger brother, who had spent all his money on loose living and had returned and was given a feast.” 9. “Lord, I’m getting confused,” said the lawyer. “Weren’t we talking about being a good neighbor?”

    10. “Let me finish,” said Jesus. “The father knew that his son was angry, and potentially dangerous, so the father purchased an even bigger club that he hid under his bed. 11. That night, when father was asleep, the son came to father to apologize for being envious. The father, thinking it was a robber, hit him over the head. 12. Now which of these three, do you think, was a wise person?” said Jesus. 13. The lawyer said, “Actually, none of them. If the father hadn’t brought those weapons into his house, then no one would have gotten hurt.” Jesus was grieved at the lawyer’s blindness. 14. “You’re missing the point.” Jesus said. “It’s a violent world out there, and my advice is to purchase as many clubs as you can.” The lawyer was sad, for he was a peaceful man. 15. “Lord,” he said, “are you saying I should be like the Samaritan who has a houseful of weapons?” “Yes,” said Jesus. “Go and do likewise. And while you’re at it, buy me a club too.”

  • Here in Maine, alarmingly warm water in Gulf of Maine bringing changes. “Temperatures close to shore remain about 10 degrees warmer than they were last winter.”

    However, since we are getting our first snowstorm of the season today everyone will forget about the scary warm temps in the water column until lobsters start shedding two months early and/or some other unprecedented and rapid change occurs. Most will shrug even then.

  • Urge for goin’

  • Depressive Lucidity, I like the cut of your jib. With respect to some of your insights, you’re close, but perhaps still a touch too emotionally engaged to fully understand current events.

    The first mistake many people make when beginning their journey down the rabbit hole is to assume that somehow conditions today are in someway different than that which has governed mankind since the first proto-humans stood upright eons ago.

    To state that the PTB **know** the current resource consumption model is unworkable, and that the financial ponzi scheme which is constructed upon this framework is unsustainable, is to miss the main point: they could hardly give a sh!t.

    You see, playing the game itself is the game, not any particular outcome measured conventionally as ‘good’ and/or ‘bad’. IOW, they are completely agnostic as to any relative measure of a “favorable” result. The essence of the game is control; Marx was correct when he stated class conflict is the basis for societal tension.

    His only problem is that he identified the culprits of his era as absolutes ie capitalists, without considering that psychopaths aka “leaders” can come in many different shapes & sizes depending on the particular circumstances.

    To bitch & moan about how things are is to relegate one to a constant state of unhappiness. The security state needs a vast ocean of resources at its disposal in order to function at even a modest level. Gamesters are already actively betting on the inevitable end-of-empire – if you’re going down, why be depressed when you can party till the end?

  • depressive lucidity Says: It’s hard to feel bad about the unraveling of a system which has been an ominicidal monster so that a small minority of humans could live in an artificial cocoon of hedonistic delusions.

    The life of a king or a czar
    Beats out the average by far,
    But the poor daily spar
    For lives way below par—
    It depends a lot who you are.

  • I Am The Mercury

    For my heart belongs to the one on the mountain
    Where doves build their nests in the sun-ripened glade

    For I am the Mercury, the light of the morning,
    Looking for shelter in this thunder and this rain
    And you, like some windmill, weave light where it’s storming
    And love like a potion for the hunger and the pain

    Let it rain

    I have been bought, I’ve been sold in the city
    I’ve dined with the demons and I drank of their fear
    But you, you have watched and waited in silence
    Come cradle my heart with a homecoming tear

    And we are the Mercury, the light of the morning,
    Looking for shelter in this thunder and this rain
    And we, like some windmill, weave light where it’s storming
    And love like a potion for the hunger and the pain

    Let it rain

    -Jimmie Spheeris

    Thanks to all of you for what you share. I have been reading & learning. The sadness is overwhelming at times. Peace & love to my invisible friends (and to Guy, who is less invisible!).

  • B9K9 The first mistake many people make when beginning their journey down the rabbit hole is to assume that somehow conditions today are in someway different than that which has governed mankind since the first proto-humans stood upright eons ago.

    That’s a very deep point and I completely agree. I also agree that the majority of elites (controllers, call them what you will) are only concerned with the present and the maintenance of their privilege and power. My only disagreement is that the notion that life is a party and that we should just party until the roof caves in is a trivialization of human existence. Perhaps the concept of moral enlightenment may seem idiotic to some, but “enlightened” sentient beings (i.e. wisdom, the wise, sensitivity to Being) strive to create a community which is compassionate towards life (including the life of nonhuman Others) and seeks to live in a way that is responsible and sustainable. The idea that life is a big o’l wing ding is a modern capitalist construct which ended up destroying the biosphere and robbing others of a future.

  • @ depressive lucidity

    I’ve been struggling with the question about who “THEY” are for quite some time. It seems clear that there are shadowy elements inside/behind the US government/corporate establishment. There is also indisputable evidence that Anglo-Amerikan intelligence sector (and probably other groups we are unable to identify) have been researching mind-control for the last 60 years. It is unlikely that they would have invested some much time and energy on mind-control, psyops et cetera, and not used them. The young Lanza, who is an empty cipher on which the media can project any image it likes, smells like a classic mind-puppet patsy.

    Yes, I agree thus far.

    TPTB know that the current system and inflated levels of prosperity in the West are unsustainable due to resource depletion and an economic ponzi scheme that is on its last leg. Since they can’t grow the economy due to physical limits, they cannot keep creating more debt based on the prospect of future growth. I think that this much is clear to them, regardless of whether they understand the lethality of climate change.

    Not so certain of that. Maybe they live in a bubble of their own ? Just insane power mad mafia gang bosses ? or occult secret soceities ? I keep an open mind…

    The agenda, imo, is to begin the process of disarming, disempowering, and discouraging the Amerikan masses so that when the bottom falls out and the black shirts take to the streets, the majority will become docile and accept their new servile status in the coming feudal system. They have already installed a legal structure that gives the president dictatorial powers in the event of a “crisis”; so we are at least half way to a formal police state.

    Possibly so. Many take that view, although there are also other theories. Again, I leave it open myself. I don’t pay that much attention to the guns issue, as it doesn’t really effect me in UK, just seems fairly standard US hysteria. Today brings this :

    http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/alert-legislation-details-senate-to-ban-hundreds-of-semiautomatic-rifles-handguns-shotguns-magazines-includes-fingerprint-registration-requirements_12272012

    Unfortunately, many of the people who understand that a totalitarian system is being constructed behind the scenes are anti-semitic wack jobs who blame everyone from Jews to hyperdimensional lizards for our problems. For the last 10 thousand years “civilized” humans have been living in hierarchical authoritarian societies. I think we are experiencing the logical and exponential expansion of this logic which will only become more extreme as the bio-physical foundations of the hive are eroded.

    Yeah, protestant Elizabethan England was classic, paranoia re Spain, catholics, witches, jews, etc…. same patterns repeat, ad nauseam…

  • Interesting long talk re NSA surveillance of everyone

  • “Unfortunately, many of the people who understand that a totalitarian system is being constructed behind the scenes are anti-semitic wack jobs who blame everyone from Jews to hyperdimensional lizards for our problems.”

    And thus a comment I made elsewhere that I do not trust 90% of the people that are specifically anti government. And lets not forget, most of the libertarians and ‘everyone do your own thing’ without accountability crowd, are also mostly anti environmentalists.

  • Kathy C once again you have staggered me with your brilliance and relevance:

    “Kathy C Says:
    December 27th, 2012 at 9:14 am
    I quoted Darwin, not because of the God part, but because Darwin could see that the natural world is rife with horrific ways for each species to try to perpetuate itself. Nature is full of horror. It is also full of wonder. Is the horror worth the wonder?”

    What an excellent question, that is to my knowledge unique in all the debate about ecocide and human extinction. Maybe our extinction is a mercy – what a way to view it. I am forever torn between the wishful notion that our species “progresses” away from barbarism and the notion that we merely develop more sophisticated methods of disguising it.

    Also thanks to ogardener for the Tom Rush song – it’s been so many years since it first brought me to tears that I had completely forgotten about it.

    Another pounding question worthy of examination was posed in a poem I borrowed and linked here:

    https://witsendnj.blogspot.ca/2009/12/what-did-you-do-once-you-knew.html

  • …I do not trust 90% of the people…

    I think it it rather like amongst the the environmentalist and doomer fringe, everyone seems to have their particular blind spot ( including me, no doubt, in some people’s view ) but I think some of the loony wack jobs are very good at digging up info, and even if they do seem to live in strange paranoid fantasies, that doesn’t mean everything that they say is incorrect, it just means it’s a lot of work sifting through all the junk…. bit like watching what comes out of the back of a garbage truck at the landfill site… 😉

    Thing is, as soon as you decide that ‘you know’, the mind stops questioning, and I think that’s dangerous. Same with stupid slogans like ‘conspiracy theory’, which just block intelligent analysis. Certainly, looking at a lot of wacky blogs, forums, comments, there’s a lot of extremely crazy people out there, for sure… it’s hard work…

    On the previous thread, Turboguy mentioned Occam’s Razor. It’s not a fixed law, it’s just a useful guide, which says look for the simplest theory which explains the observed phenomena, rather than add unnecessary elaboration. Parsimony. But that’s for science and nature. What we’re dealing with here is humans and crime.

    If there’s a guy in a chair in a room, who is dead with a pistol in his hand, the detective, by Occam’s Razor, concludes it must be suicide. But, by going for the simplest explanation, he’s excluding the actual event, which was that the guy was asleep, a murderer entered the room, shot him in the head, wiped the prints off the pistol, and placed it in his hand, to make it appear like suicide… Simplest doesn’t always guarantee truth, does it.

  • ulvfugl Says: On the previous thread, Turboguy mentioned Occam’s Razor. It’s not a fixed law, it’s just a useful guide, which says look for the simplest theory which explains the observed phenomena, rather than add unnecessary elaboration. Parsimony. But that’s for science and nature. What we’re dealing with here is humans and crime.

    Ulvfugl, the reason I said what I did is simply: Why?

    I’m not looking to argue with you, I was simply asking a question.

    In your view what is gained from a classroom full of dead children? As much as I try to look at things from your point of view I am simply unable to deduce a concrete reason. As you and I are able to maintain some semblance of sanity, we’re unable to put ourselves in the frame of mind to murder children, and thus the confusion.

    It leads me to simply state: Crazy people do crazy things, Occam’s Razor. Mental illness being what it is, especially when paired with the poison they fill those deemed “Mentally Ill” is quite literally a recipe for disaster when we add firearms to the mix.

    Is the endgame gun control? A duly appointed government employee in every school/classroom? I don’t know, and you seem to be an expert.

    Tom: On your last comment to me about a cop in every gunstore, I AGREE!

    That said, David Gregory and Obama send their children to an elite school where not counting the unbelievably well armed Secret Service agents in the midst, (Who have a truck right outside which has actual machine guns inside) have no fewer than eleven armed security guards. Obama himself joked about how he loves that heavily armed guys protect his daughters. Does that make him crazy too?

    Please explain why it’s perfectly okay for the uber rich to have their children well protected by rough men ready to bestow instant violence to those who might threaten them, while your status doesn’t afford those protections? I thought this site, after it’s transformation, was all about equality?

  • Kathy, haha, I hear you.
    ==

    Kathy C Says: Is the horror worth the wonder? If not the passing of this world of life perhaps is OK….Maybe it is just my way of coping with NTE but one cannot deny that the beautiful natural world we mourn is full of one creature eating another day after day….So much pain….

    “Is it worth it?” The question is key;
    For some few, it sure seems to be,
    But probably for most,
    Properly diagnosed,
    It’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

  • Thanks Guy,
    And thanks contributing folks for openly tossing about questions about the fundamental constructs of our existence, like killing, and eating and dominating and owning and destroying, and trying to be here for the benefits and gone for the consequences.
    John

  • I appreciate your work. Please, keep it up.
    Here’s a one chord song I wrote for the solstice:

    Son of the Sun:

    i’m son of the sun
    love to everyone
    electrified eyes
    charmed
    and then some

    heart on fire
    mind on fun
    enjoying all the blessings
    from my old man, sun
    enjoying all the blessings
    from my old man, sun

    i’m son of the sun
    love to everyone
    heat in my hand
    charmed
    and then some

    heart on fire
    mind on fun
    enjoying all the blessings
    from my old man, sun

    people talk story
    confidence come undone
    lost sight
    of the light
    in the darkness
    of the shadows
    of the people
    without connection to the sun
    without connection to the sun

    sun keeps on shining
    giving love to everyone
    reminding all here
    we’re all children of the sun
    we’re all children of the sun
    we’re all children of the sun

    heart on fire
    mind on fun
    enjoy all the blessings
    from your old man, sun
    enjoy all the blessings
    from your old man, sun

    heart on fire
    mind on fun
    enjoy all the blessings
    from your old man, sun
    from your old man, sun

  • What did you do once you knew?

    Once you know, the doing ceases, even though the chopping wood and carrying water continues.

  • In your view what is gained from a classroom full of dead children?

    That sage advice was ignored:
    “When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away”. – John Steinbeck

  • A duly appointed government employee in every school/classroom?

    In other words, a public school teacher.

  • Medical personnel are not exempted from weapons qualification in the Arny, even though they are medical personnel.

  • Is the horror worth the wonder?

    It is a futile yet common desire to eradicate one of a pair of opposites in a realm of opposites.

  • I turned 60 this year. I actually started to go over my past, looking for meaning… looking for threads and connections, not out of want or fear, just decided to look for flavors, currents, directions. Looking thru photographs, reading old
    correspondence, even going thru my internet favorites…exploring.

    The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of
    dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

    -H.P. Lovecraft

    I ran across this quote that I had filed in my documents folder for later consideration. Since that day, I’ve come upon Nature Bat’s Last, watched Guy’s two most recent lectures and read all of the comments from his 4 most recent posts. I’ve also followed links thoughtfully provided by you folks to help me situate this new (to me) perspective. I watched the german Professor’s two-part presentation, read many old and current posts about artic ice, permafrost methane release, and looked up and studied links on the 8 feedback loops of doom. It’s been an eventful December in my education…unfortunately.

    Being struck by Lovecraft’s quote, by what I considered its prescience, I put it aside not wanting, right then, to really think about The Road scenario it brought to mind. Now I’m realizing that McCarthy’s scenario is an optimist’s pipe dream compared to the obvious truth staring back at us from the coming darkness. I also realize that the horror of discovery in Lovecraft’s quote may never come to pass for most people of this world. Something much worse seems to be in store. Obliviousness, sudden surprise, lots of pain, The End.

    Is life a learning experience? Is this a lesson for us from our creator? Can what’s coming be ennobled in some way on that basis?

    I’m afraid I don’t think so, I just can’t see it… self serving to the very end, we’d love to mythologize our self-deportation from corporeality. We are just another toxic mutation played out over time and space.

    The jig is about up and we might as well dance our way out.

    Buddha. Bucky Fuller. Gurdjieff. Darwin. Galileo. The Beatles. Richard Simmons (and many others).

    They tried to help, but couldn’t. Some of us tried to listen and act. Most didn’t.

    At this point, what’s the use of worrying? Certainly no point in anger or retaliation.

    We did this. And we’ll all go down together. Just like Billy Joel said.

    I guess I’ll head back to memory lane now.

    b.phillips

  • Robin
    I wrote -Is the horror worth the wonder?

    You – wrote It is a futile yet common desire to eradicate one of a pair of opposites in a realm of opposites.

    No I am not trying to eliminate anything. But the pain of being prey doesn’t exist because it is the opposite of the beauty of nature. It exists because evolution creates what works, not necessarily what it nice. The pain of being a victim of the Inquisition or Guantanamo exists not because they are the opposites of being nice, but because humans evolved to be the top predator with little left to prey on but its own species.

    I am suggesting that since it is true that on this world the horror comes inextricably tied to the wonder (survival of what works), that the passing of life on this planet perhaps is not something to be mourned at all.

    If in fact the evil in inextricably tied to the good by some law of opposites (given by whom?), if in fact the joy of sex is somehow tied to the rape of children, if the joy of an excellent meal is tied to starvation, if in fact the beauty of a fox comes from the shredding apart of baby bunnies, perhaps we don’t have to find the end of this realm of opposites such a thing to mourn.

    Either by what I meant (evolution is not what is good, but what works) or your way – some inexplicable law of opposites – is it worth it to keep it going. Ask the mouse as the talons pierce his body, ask the child as her impoverish mother sells her into slavery. Explain to them how this law of opposites makes their suffering OK somehow.

  • Gail “Maybe our extinction is a mercy – what a way to view it. I am forever torn between the wishful notion that our species “progresses” away from barbarism and the notion that we merely develop more sophisticated methods of disguising it.”

    Yes. I know that some say the numbers say that hunter-gatherers kill more other humans than modern humans. I however have never seen what goes into that. Does that include for instance only the number we say we killed in wars (like Iraq) or the numbers that really have been killed. Does it include only the homicides in cities but not the early death of those who take drugs because they can’t take it. Does it include collateral damage, the suicides after every war, the conditions created by war that cause early death through disease and famine, the people killed in factory fires where the doors were locked, the people killed by pollution. We disguise the deaths that are caused by our way of life that never killed a single hunter gatherer. No hunter-gatherer died in a nuclear accident eh? We can’t see the horror in the statistics can we?

  • @ Turboguy

    the reason I said what I did is simply: Why?
    I’m not looking to argue with you, I was simply asking a question.
    In your view what is gained from a classroom full of dead children?
    As much as I try to look at things from your point of view I am simply unable to deduce a concrete reason. As you and I are able to maintain some semblance of sanity, we’re unable to put ourselves in the frame of mind to murder children, and thus the confusion.
    It leads me to simply state: Crazy people do crazy things, Occam’s Razor. Mental illness being what it is, especially when paired with the poison they fill those deemed “Mentally Ill” is quite literally a recipe for disaster when we add firearms to the mix.
    Is the endgame gun control? A duly appointed government employee in every school/classroom? I don’t know, and you seem to be an expert.

    I’m not an expert, Turboguy, just try to understand what’s really going on.

    Yes, the question is ‘Why ?’. But you seemed to accept the ‘simple’ MSM account, the mentally ill young guy, for reasons unknown, slaughters children, contrasted with my ‘complex conspiracy’, that it was an engineered event designed by others also for reasons unknown.

    Both are valid, and I don’t reject either, a priori. We should list all possibilities, excluding nothing, not even the most unlikely, if we want truth, because there is good reason to be suspicious. It’s a crime scene. Criminals don’t tell the truth, sometimes they even dress as cops, sometimes the tv doesn’t tell the truth, sometimes events are staged to deceive the public, we cannot assume that any authorities are trustworthy and acting in good faith. At the same time, we don’t want to get sucked into total insanity ourselves. This is hard ! It really is.

    Don’t know if anybody here watched the film about scopolamine in Colombia. It can be given as fine powder, inhaled without knowing, and then you’ll do whatever someone tells you ‘Hey, howabout we go to your bank and withdraw all your money ?’ and afterwards there’s no recollection… the dark agencies have known about that for many decades, they are bound to have refined and weaponized it, in the light of modern chemistry and neuroscience, I think it’s easy for them to set up ANY suitable vulnerable individual as a Manchurian Candidate/Sirhan/Ruby type to do whatever, just part of their tool kit, like drones and computer hacking and all the rest of the crap.

    Any theory about what happened has to explain all the anomalies, like who were the two guys in ski masks ( one dressed as a nun ?!) in the purple van with the rear windows smashed leaving, the area… and so many other strange pieces of information that simply don’t fit the MSM story.

    When I say this is hard, it’s not just this particular thing re SH that’s hard, if you really deeply question any issue about soceity, beliefs, etc, you hit that self-doubt place, ‘Is it me that’s crazy, or is it everyone else ?’ which is a painful, lonely place to be…

  • On the shooting issue and the NRA stance. What looks more like a police state?

    a law introduced by Diane Feinstein banning assault weapons with 900 exemptions.

    NRA proposal of armed guards in every school in the country

    Seems to me the NRA proposal moves us much closer to a police state. In fact recent shootings were in a movie theater and a mall – lets put the police there as well. In fact so that everyone can buy a gun lets put the police everywhere.

  • A bit off topic…

    Many here may know as I do that surveilence technology is going into hyperdrive in the USA particularly, but I can’t see how it isn’t going in the same direction wherever there are GPS enabled mobile phones and screen thingamys.

    Stumbled onto this little tidbit that seems to confirm what we sort of knew.

    ‘Precrime creeps closer to reality, with predictive smartphone location tracking’

    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/134422-precrime-creeps-closer-to-reality-with-predictive-smartphone-location-tracking

    Some sobering quotes:

    “A British research group has developed software that can predict, within 20 meters, where you will be 24 hours from now.

    It’s actually surprisingly easy to predict your general, routine movements — home, car, office, lunch, car, home — but it has always been nigh impossible to predict breaks in routine, such as a trip to the cinema or a holiday abroad.

    The researchers, Mirco Musolesi, Manlio Domenico, and Antonio Lima of the University of Birmingham, cracked this problem by factoring in the location of your friends and your social interactions with those friends (phone calls, meet-ups, etc.) By simply analyzing how many calls you make to a friend, and by correlating your movement patterns, the researchers can predict your movements over the next 24 hours — even if you deviate dramatically from routine….

    On the nefarious end of the spectrum, though, this algorithm could be the cornerstone of a Precrime Police Division, a la Minority Report. Precrime would track the location of known criminals via their smartphones, and put a tap on their calls to correlate their movements with their friends/known associates. Very quickly, the Precrime Police could create a map of where every criminal will be in the next 24 hours. It would probably be difficult to predict actual crimes, but at least you’d know where to station your cops.

    It’s worth noting that some police departments are already doing something similar, but on a much broader scale: They’re collating all of the reports and arrests in their database, and then plotting them on a map to see where crime is most likely to occur on any given day. In regions where police forces are being downsized, technology will become increasingly important as a force amplifier — and eventually, I wouldn’t be surprised if a real, per-criminal precrime system is deployed.”

    I’m going to chuck my mobile phone, back to the old days….

    Not that I’ve done anything wrong…er…not yet.

  • @Robin

    “What did you do once you knew?

    Once you know, the doing ceases, even though the chopping wood and carrying water continues.”

    Doing ceases with death–if you discount feeding microbes; if you discount what your mirror neurons have programmed into those they have helped pattern and who might, after your death, not yet be dead. Isn’t it what one does differently (that is statistically significant) once NTE is grasped, a more pertinent framing of the question? To the degree doing, as life, never ceases–even in an extinction event–isn’t knowing, motivated reasoning withstanding, only observable when the doing is statistically significantly different?

    Consider, and to the degree the blogosphere functions as an echo chamber for trusted iterations of motivated reasoning, to what degree what is being done within the NBL network/community functioning as a pursuit of homeostasis among similarly-minded individuals living out Pogo’s truth: “we have met the enemy and he is us.” Systemically, how are “we” the feared “they”?

  • Doing ceases with death

    The “doing” ceases with the death of the “I”. The “happening” is not dependent on the “I”: it continues as long as the body-mind continues. The Great Death, the death of the “I” may occur well before the death of the body-mind. In that case the “doing” ceases but the “happening” continues. The Great Death may also occur at the moment of the death of the body-mind. In any case the “happening” does not cease until the moment of the body-mind death. What is commonly referred to as “death” is the little death.

    The Great Death

  • At stake:

  • Good and evil, beautiful and ugly (and such) are not inextricably linked. They are both necessarily aspects of conditional reality. The contrasts are addressed in various ways, but reference to an non-conditionable reality is not an option within conditioned reality.

  • Guy, thank you for sharing your ode with us. I must confess that I’ve never written an ode before, but I am happy to provide my attempt for your perusal.

    Ode to the Natural World

    Oh the wondrous beauty of the natural world,
    The trees, the grasses, the birds, and the squirrels,
    They all beckon to me like a banner with its colors unfurled.

    For countless eons life has thrived and filled
    Every niche on the mountains, the oceans, and the fields untilled.

    While beautiful, true, life can be severe.
    For everything dies, some at peace, while others in great fear.

    Nature continually tries to find a new way,
    Some lives doesn’t last, while others for a longer time stay.

    Occasionally, nature’s various and sundry potions
    Creates a situation which starts the wheels in motion
    To clean the planet of all life from the skies to the oceans.

    Such great angst is created for those who are aware
    Of what’s happening to life everywhere.

    But, the observer too one day will be gone,
    And after a while, life will start again and go on.

    Will the beauty of the world still be so wondrous
    When new life has been created long after us?

    There can be no doubt, whether hotter or colder,
    Beauty most certainly there will be in the eyes of the beholder.

  • Well Robin are we then stuck in this conditioned reality with no escape.

    Given that so much evil goes on, so much pain, again I ask, is the conditioned reality worth it? Should we mourn the end of it (assuming extinction would end it).

  • Daniel,

    Thanks for the link on 2012 temperature. Did you notice that it’s starting to look like a hockey stick? Once again we see that pattern.

    If the hockey stick pattern holds true for temperature, then NTE is a certainty within our near future. Just project that graph out a little bit and a 6 to 10 degree increase in average temperature is less than a decade away.

    If that trend continues, we almost certainly will be facing major food shortages, if not this year, then next.

  • Links to videos of space travel, real or sci-fi are beautiful, as may be movies (I have not watched movies in over two decades). But any “sustainability” outside our biosphere will mandate taking along a chunk of the biosphere. Until we find another planet habitable to us in another star system.

    The critical issue in interstellar human travel would be the ability to maintain closed biospheric ecosystems for millennia. And secondly the ability to recycle everything. For all those millennia, all maintenance and all repairs will have to be done with the materials and (remanufactured when they wear out) tools at hand. Recycling to the ultimate degree.

    Life in another habitable world may be based not on DNA, but on nucleic acid analogues or on something else altogether: there is no telling how it would interact with a biosphere imported from Earth.

    However such speculation is moot now.

  • TOO LATE I SPEAK WITH MANY VOICES…

    A FEW VOICES OF MONEY AND POWER
    LEADING TO MUCH GREED AND DESTRUCTION…
    AND MANY VOICES OF IGNORANCE
    LEADING TO WOBBLING TOWERS OF BABBLE…
    And what can be done about it?
    Nuthin…
    Bipedal army ants built a road over the Andes…
    Using real life Tonka toys…
    From Pacific port deep into my beloved heart…
    An artery pulsing with diesel fuel combusted…
    Slicing at my dirt until the dirty deed was done…
    So their friends the chainsaw termites…
    And their friends the helicopter flying beavers…
    Relieve their friends the World Bunco Maggots…
    And International Monetary Ferrets…
    Of their misplaced concern over unpaid debts…

    Foreign debt could be repudiated like Hitler and Tojo did…
    But instead of having them kill each other in wars…
    They put my sons and daughters on board ships like slaves…
    Pack them in like the ever lesser sardines…
    My sons and daughters could float on their own but instead…
    They separate them from their roots and family…
    Lift them out of their villages using hot air and jet fuel…
    And float them to their technological islands…
    Strip off their skins to use as plywood…
    Render their bones to make furniture…
    Upon which their new masters sit…
    While supping on succulent whale meat slaughtered helplessly…
    After having their eardrums blasted to deafness…
    Measuring my ocean’s temperature uselessly…

    Greater chunks of my meat are missing now…
    The size of France every five years…
    I speak from patchwork quilt-lesser cloth…
    Nobody can come to my aid…
    I have acquired some deficiencies…
    I am not immune to feeling loss…
    While my dwindling jewels are still being plucked from their settings…
    My few precious crowns are pried from my many mouths…
    Melted down chopped up reformed…
    Made into ingots and false idols…

    Such great chunks of my meat are missing now…
    I cannot hold my water, I cannot hold my earth…
    My thinning soil falls out, I pee way out over the ocean…
    Instead of on Africa where I used to like to pee…

    After my splendid hardwood erections are pillaged and taken…
    I am given like chattel to grateful ignorants who burn me…
    They think they are getting something of value…
    If they only knew…
    I feel so useless…

    They think I am just rocks and dirt…
    They think I am just plants…
    They think I am just insects…
    They think I am just animals…
    They think I am just air and water…
    They think I am just electrons spinning around protons and neutrons…
    They really don’t know what to think…
    They just know they have to think something…
    They look for a physical grand unification theory…
    It is right in front of their nose…
    Any direction they point their nose…
    It is right in front of it…
    Can’t they smell the stench?
    It is not a theory.

    In that place called America alone…
    There are 100 million of my poor displaced and inbred cousins…
    Imprisoned in relocation camps…
    Strict vegetarians being fed ground up parts of each other…
    And offal ground up parts from other more wooly cousins…
    Waiting to have their heads chopped off their muscles sliced…

    Their organs ground by a race of hairless idiot monkeys…
    The same hairless idiot monkeys that use the skins…
    Of the prisoners for shoes coats and branded lampshades with no light…
    The same hairless idiot monkeys that use their hairy cousins…
    For experiments opening their brain pans and putting in probes…
    Dancing around in glee when they press a button…
    And the hairy cousins jerk and vomit in disgust…

    They think I am just animals…
    So they eat me…
    This is a mistake…
    I am the progenitor of rocks, dirt, plants, animals, air and water…
    Atoms and electrons matter and antimatter…
    I have informed my animal offspring to make themselves sick…
    When the hairless idiot monkeys put them in concentration camps…
    To ready them for slaughter they get the jitterbug brain rot…
    Ollie Ollie Oxen free free free and all fall down…
    Now they put my sweet innocent cannon fodder…
    Into ovens in droves and incinerate them…
    So they wont infect the others with their addled thoughts of rebellion…
    Briefly reminiscent of memories we are supposed to be ashamed of…
    Putting them in ovens like cattle…
    Until the hairless idiot monkeys do the jitterbug and all fall down…
    Ollie Ollie Ebola-Monkey Free Free Free…
    Better being quietly euthanized than eaten or experimented with…

    They think I am just air and water…
    So they drink me and breathe me…
    This is a mistake…
    I have informed the air and water to seek their own level of toxicity…
    So if hairless idiot monkeys put poisons into air and water…
    Cancer is all they will get back out…

    They think I am just plants so they hybridize me…
    Make it so I cannot have babies…
    This is a mistake…
    Make it so the poor farmers that plant me have to beg for seed…
    From the same hybridizing companies year after year or they starve…
    Make it so the poor countries have to borrow money…
    From World Bunco Maggots who direct where to buy the seed…
    And International Monetary Ferrets who squeal and rub their paws…
    And direct from whom to buy the chemical poison fertilizer insecticide…
    They plant us in sameness all together in huge collective camps…
    Make it so the insects that eat me call all their friends to the feast…
    It is a celebration of death…
    They spray me with poison to kill the insects…
    Then they eat me…
    This is a mistake…

    They think I am just insects…
    They think I am a pest…
    There is a lot more of me than them…
    I bite them…
    I make like a buzz saw in their ear…
    They try to poison me…
    There is not enough poison in the Universe to poison me…
    This is a mistake…

    They think I am just rocks and dirt…
    If they have time they think in amazement about abundant life…
    Springing from just rocks and dirt…
    But they won’t just leave me alone…
    They mess with me…
    They think there are things inside of me…
    They crush me and refine me…
    They try to psychoanalyze me…
    Send me to factory schools where they try to make me fit in…
    The school counselors redefine me as ore…
    They make me a resource upon which they depend…
    I have become valuable to them…
    They have killed many many hairless idiot monkeys over me…
    To get me, protect me and yell battle profanities in my name…
    Wherever I am they call me the “land that they love”…
    They think that they can possess me…
    This is a mistake…

    They think I am just electrons spinning around protons and neutrons…
    They think I am even smaller and name me colors of quarks…
    I joust with them and their thought…
    The instant they think I am something I become that…
    I am willow-the-wisp I am the magician…
    They begin to think I am metaphysical…
    I am…
    They collide one part of me with another part of me and I am still me…
    The hairless idiot monkeys jump around when the collision occurs…
    They think of a new name for me…
    They don’t have the slightest idea who I am…
    They made me fly apart with my gigantic power and kill for them…
    So I made them hideous deranged and even more hairless…
    And skin peel off and fingernails fallout and death was cheap…
    But death is more expensive now…
    They try to enslave my power so I can only maim and injure…
    Bolting antique steam engines together with the Sun…
    To make power for their hair dryers…
    This is a mistake…
    Since they do not love me…
    They cannot hold me…
    I am too big for their britches…
    No suspenders can hold me up…
    Since they do not love me…
    They only think of using me and then leaving me…
    Piercing me gouging me poisoning me damning me…
    They think of going back to heaven where they think they came from…
    So they think they act in my name…
    Some of these hairless idiot monkeys even think they are me…
    Where do they get the audacity to think that they are everything?
    They think I have legs and sit on a throne…
    They think I have self esteem…
    This is a mistake…
    They really don’t know what to think…
    They just know they have to think something…

    I am not taking this sitting down…
    I take this spinning around…
    Twisting and turning on the shiskabob spit…
    If I turn just right I can throw them off…
    If I jiggle just a little and take a jog real quick…
    Whirl like a dervish…
    Tsunamis will do their work…
    Oceans will slosh back and forth in their basins…
    And quickfreeze these unnatural mammoths at the poles…
    With Big Macs stuffed in their mouths…
    Humans to me are like a fungus gone awry…
    Fed too much sugar and fermented…
    In a darkened dank earthen hallway with tunnel vision…

  • Kathy C. ..we then stuck in this conditioned reality with no escape…

    YOU are, Kathy, because of your egocentric/anthropocentric viewpoint, that sees the the whole Universe as having its purpose in being required to conform to your personal likes and dislikes. Why the heck should it ? What’s so important about what what you find pleasant or unpleasant ?

    Not everyone sees it that way, not all cultures see it that way, it’s a peculiarity of the Christian belief system, ‘God created the world for people’.

    You complain about the horror of foxies eating cuddly bunnies, but that’s as absurd as for a bacterium in your gut to complain about the horrible conditions it has to endure, where cells live and die. It’s just a part of the system that permits you to exist. Foxes and rabbits are part of the system that allows foxes and rabbits.

    Your identification with your own self as being the centre of all which passes judgement upon all, is what causes you difficulty.

    “This feeling of being lonely and very temporary visitors in the universe is in flat contradiction to everything known about man (and all other living organisms) in the sciences. We do not ‘come into’ this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean ‘waves,’ the universe ‘peoples.’ Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated ‘egos’ inside bags of skin [but] the cat has already been let out of the bag. The inside information is that yourself as ‘just little me’ who ‘came into this world’ and lives temporarily in a bag of skin is a hoax and a fake. The fact is that because no one thing or feature of this universe is separable from the whole, the only real You, or Self, is the whole.” -Alan Watts, “The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are”

  • I ask, is the conditioned reality worth it?

    Two and a half millennia ago a gent said “Hell no!”

    But to (mis)appropriate TRDH’s line Beauty most certainly there will be in the eyes of the beholder

    – Beauty most certainly there will be in the eyes of the beerholder.

  • Guy,
    My heart ached as I read your ode as I too so Love this earth. The smell of new mown grass. The caress of air molecules kissing my skin. The sigh of the trees. The symphony of life.

    Out of dodge and not in Kansas. As droll as it gets…great humor in the face of despair.

    Have been looking for ways to make you wrong but, as yet, to no avail.

    Safe travels my friend.
    Edward

  • Gosh, an American Senator gets it… good talk.

  • Brad Smith: Jaw-droppingly astonishing. Thank you.

  • @Robin

    As far as I know, the geo-political construct within which Zen evolved was that of a social meme in which an elite held unquestioned power over the lower classes. In Western democratic republics, are not the people the comprobable elite (if irresponsibly so)? If so, then isn’t it our doing that rules? With NTE, isn’t that what our doing/ruling choose? I accept that extinction, as karmic justice, is ‘good’. For me it’s a way of seeing how ‘they’ are ‘us’ (…and we are all together…). 😉

    Anyway, the referenced detachment might be another ‘synomym’ for ‘homeostasis’. Your reply has me wondering what it’s iteration of motivated reasoning might be: enlightened non-doing as good? I may not have communicated as I intended, but doesn’t even that, whether it is motivated reasoning or not, function, systemically, as I posited? Or we’re you agreeing and I’ve missed that?

  • [i}“What did you do once you knew?[/i]

    Some friends and I bought a ’64 Dodge van in a junkyard for $25.00, fixed it up, drove it to BC, Canada and joined a commune.

    Chopping wood and carrying water works for me.

  • Doing requires agency. There has to be an “I”, which hosts the sense of “I” am doing. Without the “I” there can be “happening”, but that is not “doing”. Even an inanimate robot that is “doing” has an agency in the controller behind it, otherwise it is only functioning, and events are happening.

    Zen, Chan, and the precursors as well as the Theravada and Vajrayana traditions are at home with these concepts, which arise from and are consonant with their roots in Vedic traditions.

    Those from dualistic religions have a substantial conceptual distance to traverse to “no soul”, “no god” and “The Void”.

    Without the “I”, one may act, but the actions no longer constitute “doing” because there is no longer an “I” to host the agency of “I” “am doing”.

  • ulvfugl “What’s so important about what what you find pleasant or unpleasant ?”
    You will note that I am always talking about what others find unpleasant. I talk about children taken into sex slavery. I can imagine they find that unpleasant. I hear the screech of a chicken nailed by a hawk. I see the other chickens cowering. How can I not believe that is unpleasant. My life is pretty damn good. I have held my own babies, fat with my milk, and that was good. I have held starving babies in Haiti and listened to them scream when I put them down. How can I not believe that that is NOT good. How is this about ME when I keep talking about others???

    you wrote “Foxes and rabbits are part of the system that allows foxes and rabbits.” Did you know that the call they make for hunters to attract foxes mimics the bleat of a baby rabbit, the sound of fear. Sure if you step back it is a system that works, but step into the skin of the baby rabbit. How does it feel? Cannot you not put yourself anywhere other than inside your own self. Can you not imagine a wild animal’s fear of the wolf that is about to cull it from the herd. Or does that antelope just say, oh well that is the way it goes, keeps the herd strong. NO it just fears and hurts when the teeth cut into its flesh.

    You have told us of your headaches and your attempts to eliminate them. Why not just accept that as part of a system that gives some people bodies without headaches and some headaches? Just the way it is….your pain is real to you. Do you care about anyone else’s pain? The fear and pain of a 5 year old child just raped for the first time by an adult, orfices torn, body shamed, and no mother or father to hold and comfort them. Put yourself there and tell me that is OK.

    So death happens, extinction happens, just the way it goes. Extinctions have been happening ever since life began. I am OK with that. I am OK with all of it going including myself and kin. How is that putting myself at the center. I am just accepting the world as it is and saying, maybe it is not really something worth mourning. After all it is just going early by the hand of one of the species that happened to evolve and be a bit too good at what it does. Few billion years early. No big deal.

    Deep down, Ulvfugl I think you are afraid of death and the fact that I am not is what threatens you, not all the other stuff you pick at.

  • ulvfugl; Regarding ocean acidification, the senator starts out very strong but ends up sounding like an economist/politician. I doubt anyone was overly impressed.

    My wife said the local TV news had a climatologist on explaining warming and weather changes. Whatever. Folks like warmer weather.

  • Yeah, the politician at least mentions some of the threats, but couches them too much in the context of economy – while not delving into the true seriousness of the situation.

  • Kathy C. what you are saying seems to me to be typical example egocentrism and anthropocentrism, as exemplified by the Christian cultural tradition.

    When the going was good, use and exploit everything, because ‘God gave the world to people to use as they wish’.

    Now that it’s wrecked, ‘Oh, well, nature was always horrible, so it doesn’t really matter’. As so often, I find your attitude abhorrent.

    Deep down, Ulvfugl I think you are afraid of death and the fact that I am not is what threatens you, not all the other stuff you pick at.

    I don’t think anything about you or what you believe threatens me, Kathy C. I really don’t care what your attitude towards death is. Why should I ? It’s your own private affair, doesn’t effect me in any way whatsoever. I comment on what you say when I think it is wrong and misleading because I like truth and honesty.

  • @Bailey, dairymandave …the senator starts out very strong but ends up sounding like an economist/politician. I doubt anyone was overly impressed.

    Crikey, ffs, he IS a POLITICIAN. Have you never heard of rhetoric ? He’s trying to persuade people, and considering the rubbish that usually comes out from the US Gvt, that’s a pleasant change….

  • Fukuoka talks about the end of life on Earth.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft0ylk4sU5M

  • Well Robin are we then stuck in this conditioned reality with no escape.

    My apologies for butting into a fine discussion between Robin and Kathy C, but doesn’t the escape from conditioned reality occur when enlightenment is achieved? Breaking free from the cycle of birth-death-rebirth fueled by suffering?

    Given that so much evil goes on, so much pain, again I ask, is the conditioned reality worth it? Should we mourn the end of it (assuming extinction would end it).

    In eastern religion/philosophy, extinction of life here will not end conditioned reality (at least if my understanding of it is correct). Those of us, human and non-human alike, who did not achieve enlightenment here will simply be reborn as an alien life form on another planet in this universe, or as an entity in one of the other four realms of existence.

    That wheel just keeps rolling on and on…

  • Re white slavery, excellent free book online, Gangs of America, Ted Nace, the origins in England, of the Corporations and American colonies :

    Edward Hakluyt, who spent twenty years promoting the ideas that led to the Virginia Company, was quite frank in calling it a “prison without walls.” In 1609 the company applied to the city of London “to ease the city and suburbs of a swarme of unnecessary inmates, as a continual cause of death and famine, and the verey originall cause of all the plagues that happen in this kingdome.”

    At the request of the company, Parliament in 1618 passed a bill allowing the Virginia Company to capture English and Scottish children as young as eight years of age. John Donne, one of the leaders of the company, promised in 1622 that the Virginia Company “shall sweep your streets, and wash your dores, from idele persons, and the children of idle persons, and imploy them.”

    Historian John Van der Zee describes children “driven in flocks through the town and confined for shipment in barns.” Those who survived the Atlantic passage encountered regimentation and institutionalized cruelty as routine aspects of everyday life. Each person, including children, received a military rank, and those who violated the detailed rules were tied “neck and heels” for the first offense, whipped for the second, and forced to work on a convict galley for the third. Such methods of discipline had been devised by Maurice of Orange for training Dutch soldiers; they were introduced to the Virginia colony by Sir Thomas Gates and Sir Thomas Gale. Even petty crimes were harshly punished. Stealing an ear of corn or a bunch of grapes while weeding a garden was punishable by death. For stealing two or three pints of oatmeal, one worker had a needle thrust through his tongue and was then chained to a tree until he died of starvation.

    Speaking out against the leadership of the company earned even worse punishment. For making “base and detracting” statements against the governor, the Company managers ordered one servant to have his arms broken, his tongue pierced with an awl, and finally to be beaten by a gauntlet of 40 men before being banished from the settlement. For complaining that the Company’s system of justice was unfair, a man named Thomas Hatch was whipped, placed in the pillory, had an ear cut off, and sentenced to an additional seven years of servitude.

    http://www.gangsofamerica.com/3.html

  • Music for the Apocalypse

    They say
    the revolution
    will not be televised

    we know now
    that it will be
    on the Net

    no trumpet blast
    is necessary

    we were
    forewarned
    by Dylan

    and now
    the chatter
    of the keyboard

    is the accompaniment
    to Decay…

  • Conspiracy2Riot, Fred Kaluza, amanda, B9K9, islandraider, ryerro, Brad Phillips, brad smith, ogardener, and John Matthews, thanks for your first-time comments in this space. And thanks to everybody else, too, for continued fine contributions.

  • @ Arthur Johnson

    You can go down that buddhist/hindu line of thinking, which, IMO, is mythos, not logos, because nobody ever came back with any substantive evidence to support the thesis, afaik…. but there is an alternative route… which can be supported by science

    Ecocentrism recognizes that the Ecosphere, rather than organisms, is the source of life, of creativity, of evolutionary design, and of all meaning.

    http://www.ecospherics.net/index.html

  • Ulvfugl, so attributing fear and pain to animals is anthropomorphism? The Guys at the Feed Lots will love you. The guys that drop make up into rabbit eyes will love you. Watch out for the PETA folks tho.

    When did I ever say we should use and exploit everything on the planet? You totally misunderstand. Its just that despite the efforts to warn people, despite the efforts of those who have gone to jail to try to save the planet, it seems that we are at Near Term Extinction. So the question arises how do we feel? I suggest that perhaps we admit that we lose the good when life exits stage left, but we also lose the bad. For some that might help ease the mourning.

    I have done many things to make life for people better – took in foster children, spent years visiting nursing homes to bring some comfort, did Hospice for 10 years. Worked 7 years volunteering at Habitat for Humanity to help people have a home. Spent many years volunteering at homeless shelters. I have tried to garden well, restoring soil to some of its natural fertility and encouraging rich life in the soil, sparing the hoe and shovel where I could to keep from disturbing the life in the soil. I have lived simply, sometimes by necessity, mostly by choice. My chickens are healthy and have about as good a life as a domestic animal could hope for. I could just live it up for whatever remaining time we have on the planet, but its not even something I want much less intend to do.

    But all of that doesn’t matter does it. If I have different ideas about the nature of the world and life, and dare to challenge your ideas, I become to you some sort of evil incarnate.

    Here is some truth for you. Species go extinct. Sometimes lots and lots of species go extinct (end permian for example). This has happened before humans even existed. Scientists believe our sun will go nova and whatever life is left on the planet will be incinerated and our whole solar system will cease to be. Predators eat prey, lots of prey. Whether or not the prey that are non-human feel any pain we can’t know, but we know that the more advanced have a nervous system similar to ours. We know that when they are hurt they respond as we do with limping, cries, howls etc. We know we don’t want to be hunted or eaten alive. We have good reason to believe the lion will never lay down with the lamb and begin to eat grass. The deck is stacked, we live on a planet that is finite so if reproducing creatures don’t die the planet will overfill. We know that animals have programs to avoid death and yet they cannot in the end avoid death. We know that humans KNOW they have to die and most cannot stand the thought of that.

    Please tell me what in that is not true. Please tell me why saying such things is dishonest.

  • Arthur “but doesn’t the escape from conditioned reality occur when enlightenment is achieved? Breaking free from the cycle of birth-death-rebirth fueled by suffering?”

    I don’t believe in reincarnation, but if I did I would say that the enlightenment, if fueled by suffering is not worth it. I cannot find anything that would be worth a child being sold by her parents into sex slavery. However if you think it is worth it, go find a child that has had that life and ask them if eventual enlightenment is going to be worth it to them.

    I have a similar argument with people who are Christian – they tell me that free will is so wonderful a gift, and the creator has to give it to all or none apparently, that it is worth it for a child to be experimented on fully awake by a Nazi Dr. because Hitler and the Dr. cannot be deprived of their free will. At any rate can you imagine asking a child if they mind the pain of an anesthetic free experiment so Hitler can have free will. I expect they would gladly give up their own free will to have the pain stop.

  • Kathy C. Not for the first time, you appear to have absolutely no idea what I am talking about and go off onto a totally unrelated diversion. Is it deliberate, or are you unable to follow ?

    I have NEVER mentioned anthropomorphism. Do please try and read what I write before you reply.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocentrism

  • Kathy C. Deep down, Ulvfugl I think you are afraid of death and the fact that I am not is what threatens you

    Robin D. understands this. You do not. This is what I practice.

    Students of the Way, let go of body and mind and enter completely into the buddha-dharma. An ancient said, “At the top of a hundred foot pole, how do you advance one step further?” In such a situation, we think that we would die if we were to let go of the pole and so we cling firmly to it.

    Saying “advance one step further” means the same as having resolved that death would not be bad and therefore one lets go of bodily life. We should give up worrying about everything from the art of living to our livelihood.

    Unless we give up worrying about such things it will be impossible to attain the Way even if we seem to be practicing earnestly as though trying to extinguish a fire enveloping our heads. Just let go of body and mind in a decisive manner (Shobogenzo Zuimonki, Book 3, Chapter 1). – Dogen

  • ulvfugl

    oops I’m about to go rogue.

    Here’s my impression though.

    You are an egomaniacal jerk.

    KathyC is a thoughtful, conflicted, deeply caring person who is honestly trying to examine all the painful issues that migrate around our human, inextricable dilemma.

    You, are simply trying to garner attention.

    Bah. Stop please.

    Sorry to be so opinionated. But I would really like to discuss here in the forum so kindly and generously provided us at NBL by Guy McPherson for the unabashed and honest confrontation of ecocide – human generated suicide – without the bullshit.

  • Kathy C Says:
    December 27th, 2012 at 3:50 am

    We love this beautiful planet

    i love lots about life, maybe hates lots more. it is certainly beautiful but it’s also harsh and cruel. it’s a mixed bag.

    as long as the hates don’t overwhelm the loves, i’m addicted to life in spite of awareness that such addiction is at the root of our predicament. in spite of awareness that i’m part of the problem, and that my death could be, eventually will be, part of the ‘solution’. it must be part of the solution. there’s far too many sheeple in the world feeling entitled to life and certain ‘rights’ that makes survival in the short term a much brighter prospect. too many like me sucking off the teat of empire, of industrialism.

    i suspect that ‘greed’ is another manifestation of life addiction, an insatiable drive for ‘power’, a sense of dominion over an environment that can be harsh and dangerous. genes doing everything they can to survive now and into the next generation.

    in nature there’s no such thing as rights, no right to live or ‘life’. in nature there’s limits and consequences. i’m preaching to the choir.

    ‘It’s hard to feel bad about the unraveling of a system which has been an ominicidal monster so that a small minority of humans could live in an artificial cocoon of hedonistic delusions’ -dep. luc.

    not a small minority surreally, imo. simply feeding off the crumbs of a dominant peak oil empire affords a life addict like me a rather comfortable existence with many passing pleasures. can’t blame everything on those wicked shadowy ‘elites’.

    btd, your poem ‘rationalizing extinction’ i totally get. along with kathy c.’s parallel observations re. the mixed bag that is life and death, pain and pleasure. any rationalization reduces the anguish.

  • This one is for OzMan & ulvfugi:
    (Hindu sermons, perhaps, but as different from “sermons” as one branch of science can be from another)

    http://sfvedanta.org/category/lecture-audio/“>Vedanta Society of Northern California: Lectures Audio

  • Ulvfugl apologies you did write anthropocentrism not anthropromorphism – my bad.
    Anthropocentrism is the position that human beings are the central or most significant species (more so than animal species), or the assessment of reality through an exclusively human perspective

    Maybe I have had it all wrong. Just because I don’t want to be eaten by a lion, and just because some animals have nervous systems like ours and just because they act afraid and act hurt, its just antroprocentrism to see that as fear and pain. No doubt they are just fine with being killed and eaten even though I wouldn’t be. No doubt they are glad to offer up their bodies to be part of the glorious circle of life. What do I know? I can only evaluate their pain and fear based on them being wired like us and exhibiting behavior like humans exhibit when they are afraid or hurting. I plead guilty. I do see their pain from a purely human perspective. I will try to think of baby rabbits as welcoming the use of their bodies to feed the fox. And the mother rabbit as being glad to offer up her babies for the coyote. No pain, no fear, no sorrow, those are the emotions of humans alone. Just pleasure at being eaten.

    No I am still looking at it like a human. Maybe they just are, just part of the cycle of eat and be eaten. No pain, no pleasure, just robotically living out their part in the never ending cycle. But if that is the case why would it matter to them if they go extinct. If that is the case wouldn’t caring about their extinction be an example of anthropocentrism.

    In fact I think creatures with a central nervous system do hurt and do have fear and pain and are programmed to avoid dying but don’t fear death or have a single thought about extinction. It is only from the human centered point of view that extinction becomes a sorrow. The universe just is, it just runs its mindless course. Asteroids miss, asteroids hit and species go extinct. The Siberian traps stay silent and life goes on. The Siberian traps erupt and almost all of life dies. It has happened before with no help or caring from us. What does it matter whether we who are a part of nature or the asteroid which is a part of nature does it? Isn’t that egocentric to think that it matters more when we do it?

    Have I got it right now? Did I stay on topic “because of your egocentric/anthropocentric viewpoint, that sees the the whole Universe as having its purpose in being required to conform to your personal likes and dislikes.”

    Seems to me that you in fact want the whole universe to conform to your personal world view. If the cycle of life is holy then you seem to have to discount the pain individual animals feel in playing out their part in all that. You cannot get into the rabbits pain and fear because you are are stuck in your view that the whole is good.