Lights, camera, roll film

by Mike Sosebee

Timothy Scott Bennett once wrote, “What does a privileged white guy do when he wakes up? Make a movie, what else.” He was being facetious of course but there’s a flinty ring of truth his comment. After two years of research, field work, thousands of miles on state highways and countless hours of edits and re-edits, Somewhere in New Mexico before the End of Time is finally done. My carbon footprint for this film is huge.

You’d think I’d have a lot to say about the film but, strangely enough, I’ve got nothing new to say. I’ve looked at the film and its messages until my eyes have rolled into the back of my head. If it would have been up to me, the film would have been a six-hour epic that would make a classical Russian film appear fast-paced. Fortunately I used another editor, Chris Chen, who wasn’t sensitive to the people or issues and together we narrowed it down to 1 hour, 30 minutes, 23 seconds, and 8 frames. One of the decisions we made after the first two-hour public screening in November was this film is primarily about Guy McPherson and his messages and we needed to move the emphasis in that direction.

So a lot of “heads hit the editing room floor” as they say in the biz. (Ouch!) I had to argue for every frame and most of the time I lost the argument.

In November 2012 Ben Evans of Your Environmental Road Trip shot Guy at the Bluegrass Bioneers conference on an i-Pad. His steadiness with a hand-held device is something to see (Big Thanks!). I had filmed Guy delivering a similar presentation in Oceanside, California six months earlier and most of it appeared flat, which was understandable considering it was the first time Guy had delivered that speech and he mostly read from the podium. By the time he gave the speech at the Bioneers he had given the speech dozens of times and he knew his material. Guy delivered his apocalyptic message with aplomb (/əˈpläm/) and humor.

One of the themes of the film is Joseph Tainter’s “Collapse of Complex Societies” and lately for me it’s been very real. For the past week I’ve been doing left-brain activity compressing and formatting a 72-GB digital film for DVD and Blu-Ray. The programming and technical complexities are mind boggling. My computer’s crashed half a dozen times. I’m crossing my fingers that it will survive the ordeal. But yesterday I spent the afternoon at the Roots Community Garden and I harvested some winter lettuce and prepared for spring planting. It felt good to be outside mixing with gardeners.

The Premiere is set for 7:00 p.m. on Saturday, 4 May 2013 in Tucson, Arizona. There’s an event page on Facebook, and details are posted below and beneath the “Coming Events” tab at Nature Bats Last. Please spread the word. I hope to see a lot of “Doomers” there. Cheers!

The premiere showing of Mike Sosebee’s film, Somewhere in New Mexico before the End of Time, is scheduled for 7:00 p.m. Saturday, 4 May 2013 at the Gallagher Theater in the University of Arizona’s Memorial Student Union, 1303 East University Boulevard, Tucson, Arizona. A question-and-answer period will follow the film.

Premiere poster


McPherson’s monthly essay for Transition Voice was published 25 March 2013. It’s here.

Comments 306

  • I’m not sure I understand, what is the point of the film if it is already too late?

  • pat, don’t you think people should be informed that it’s too late?

  • I bet they have a huge electric bill and a huge water bill:

    indoor farming in Chicago area:

    Though farmers are experimenting with all kinds of crops, most have had success growing greens — herbs, various types of lettuce and “microgreens,” edible plants, such as beets and sunflowers, which are harvested when they are young and used like sprouts in salads and sandwiches.

    “Aquaponic” farms, which also raise tilapia and other fish, use water circulated to the plants that is fertilized with the fish excrement. Often, these farms also sell the fish to grocers or restaurants.


    “It’s different here than I’ve seen anywhere else, just the size, the sheer scale of it is very unique,” says Maximino Gonzalez, the master grower at FarmedHere LLC.

    The company, based in Bedford Park, Ill., is finishing the first of four phases, with plans to expand by the end of next year to 150,000 square feet of vertical growing space.

  • Guy, is that the point of the film, to inform everyone that it is too late, that nothing can be done, that we are all going to die? That chaos and famine and nuclear accidents will be our reality?

    Is that the message of the film?

  • I’ll let Mike Sosebee respond to your question, pat. It’s his film, and I’ve not seen it.

  • PLYMOUTH, Minn. (AP) — Fertilizer maker Mosaic said Thursday that its net income rose 26 percent in its fiscal third quarter as it sold more potash and costs dropped for phosphate.

    Potash and phosphate are both key ingredients in fertilizer.

    Since the quarter’s end, on Feb. 28, Mosaic is seeing strong demand in most of the regions it serves, said CEO Jim Prokopanko said in a statement.

  • I was in the DC area 40 some years ago and there was the exact same experiment ‘in the hood’ using roof top veggie gardens fertilized by fish tank water pumped up from the cellar aquariums full of Telipia.

    Let me repeat that: this was 40 phucking years ago

    The whole enterprise died, not because it did not work as a concept but because the neighborhood did not understand or support it. Urban farming and using the thousands of acres of empty rooftop space in cities was too sane and reasonable an idea for the City Dwellers to get their sorry ass heads around. Food comes from stores they bleated!!!, not rooftops, don’t ya know Homey.

    It was something I wrote off as culturally impossible 40 years ago and even more so today.

    The inner city ‘leaders’ said ‘ecology’ was just something middle class white kids cared about and besides, the junkies stole all the solar panels and pumps for a quick fix, and the only thing the Residents wanted to grow was Pot, not food.

    Go figure, crazy humans.

    “Aquaponic” farms have terrible EROI. They are energy pigs and yes Virginia, the junkies still want to rip off all the solar panels and pumps today, even more so, just like the bad olde days.

    Better add the steep cost of armed guards and alarmed electric razor wire enclosures for those fancy Aquaponic city vegetables.

    I wonder how much you have to offer for the job of guarding vegetables from Zombies.

    Would you take a bullet for a cabbage?

  • As Europe’s financial woes deepen and depositors increasingly question the safety of their savings, some European citizens are looking to escape their economic troubles by joining an Italian commune, replete with its own monetary, political and economic system.

  • @ Speak Softly

    “…take a bullet for a cabbage?”

    Wow, that was very well done, I couldn’t help but laugh – big laugh from the belly.

    yes, I’ve been thinking of putting together small aquaculture and hydroponic systems – but, the big questions is:

    “What do I do with 50 pounds of Tilapia in September?” Filet them and stuff them in my Electric Freezer? Then I looked into smoking them so that we could store them at room temperature in the basement – then we could eat them over time… seems possible.

    the harder question is:

    “What do I do with 50 pounds of cucumbers, tomatoes, and squash in September?”

    and, still, the harder question is:

    “Why do it at all?” Tilapia is dirt cheap at the supermarket, vegetables are cheap, etc – and a lot less work to just pop in and pick up.

    It’s a hard sell… until there is no supermarket…

  • @ulvfugl

    Damanhur is the Italian knockoff of The Wörgl Experiment in Autria during the depression in the early 1930’s.

    File Damanhur under ‘Been there, done that’.

    Worgl was quite successful until the Nazi-mafia crushed it like Kafka’s cockroach.

    Independent banking is a Death Wish.

  • “We can choose an industrial economy or a living planet. We’re choosing an industrial economy.” Guy McPherson

    As far as the message of the film, I edited the film with a broad enough stroke that I give the audience the option to draw their own conclusions(that’s frightening for a lot of people conditioned to obey). I’d like to see a lot more people speaking about reality as if we were grown-ups and un-afflicted with infantile self-regard. It ain’t easy…

  • @Speak Softly

    The inner city ‘leaders’ said ‘ecology’ was just something middle class white kids cared about…”

    Marvin Gaye – Mercy, Mercy Me</a

  • To paraphrase Admiral Yamamoto “I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant, and its response will be terrible.”
    I look forward to the film. Thanks.

  • “We can choose an industrial economy or a living planet. We’re choosing an industrial economy.” Guy McPherson

    I think past tense would be more appropriate.

    “We chose an industrial economy over a living planet. Now we must suffer the consequences.”

  • @pat Says “I’m not sure I understand, what is the point of the film if it is already too late?”

    The great game, Pat, the great game. While the Titanic is often used as an analogy for our current predicament, the time frame from peace to disaster is a little too compressed for useful comparison. As such, it doesn’t translate well to how time is actually spent in condemn prisoners’ quarters.

    Let us speculate, however, that the time frame on the Titanic wasn’t hours, or even days, weeks or months, but years. How would the tragedy then play out? I would suggest that all the typical machinations present in every day life would quickly re-assert themselves: greed, lust, envy, etc.

    So, in response to your query, don’t you find the prospect of growing awareness and reaction to pending doom fascinating? From a gaming perspective, the intellectual exercise will consist of comparing one’s expected predictions against actual outcomes.

    I’m on record that the state will make a move to an overall wartime economy. In other words, forced participation, asset confiscation, wage/price controls, rationing, suspension/termination of critical rights (speech, assembly, petitioning, defense, evidence, probably cause, etc, etc).

    It’s not important to survive – no one gets out alive – but at least it will be entertaining to match wits with those who exercise power. At the end of the day, that seems like the only freedom left.

  • In the last days of the Mayans there were many prophets coming forth warning of the “coming apocalypse”. They weren’t heeded either. Instead they suffered the fate of most Cassandras: marginalization and persecution. The survivors retreated into the forests and resumed hunter-gatherer existence.

    This time there is no place on earth safe from capitalism…

  • Okay, so I think that the hubris of capitalism and global warming denial is very similar to the hubris of those who are absolutely 100% sure that all life will die. Both lead to inaction.

    Any possibility, however small you may feel it is, that some life and/or some humans may survive deserves all our effort to make it happen. Whether that means community action, political action, gardening or resistance is up to the individuals capabilities and preferences. Using doom as an excuse for inactivity is a cop out.

    My bruises and aches won’t let me sleep. Last month I fell at the Canadian embassy and last week I was pushed over my bicycle by cops in the lobby of a building where Valero has an office and drug out by the handle on my back pack. My friends were locked down to 300 pounds of concrete at TD bank. most of these people and myself are the Occupiers the news media will tell you have given up and gone away. I am 62 years old and I am fighting for all of our children and grand children.

    My partner and I are moving to the Occufarm about 6 miles and a one hour bicycle ride from the city. I am moving from my friends house in DC. He has a nice roof garden BTW.

    I admire the activities of Mike Sosebe and Guy McPherson. Guy has done much to spread the news of the reality we are facing and also much in the way of advocating reasonable solutions. I am sure he wonders why he is doing it sometimes, so do I, so do a lot of people who are resisting and/or pioneering new ways of life. As an Anarchist myself I like his take on agrarian Anarchy.

    I know that I am in many cases preaching to the choir here, there is a lot of good and useful activities being done, I believe by commentors on this blogn in their personal lives.

    The idea, however, that people who understand the doom scenarios and where we are heading are wrong to resist in whatever way possible and should therefor be challenged as to the sincerity of their beliefs is just wrong.

    The whole thing reminds me of a scene in the Ingamar Bergman the seventh seal. Where the people involved when confronted by their certain death by plague have a variety of reactions. The one I always identified with was the squire, who advocated the fight to the end.

    So that is what I am doing. Looking forward to seeing the movie first chance.


  • “Okay, so I think that the hubris of capitalism and global warming denial is very similar to the hubris of those who are absolutely 100% sure that all life will die. Both lead to inaction.”

    Yes, that’s what I can’t get my head around. Is GMc saying we’re 100% toast? 99% toast? 50/50 toast? What? It’s all too ambiguous for me to take it 100% seriously. Sorry :-(

    Maybe the film will help… hmmm “As far as the message of the film, I edited the film with a broad enough stroke that I give the audience the option to draw their own conclusions” maybe not.

  • annie this is a film told from various points of view like everything else. If you accept the premise that the Earth is moving to a new state of equilibrium then it’s not too difficult to extrapolate where it’s all going. If you have a different POV then you should present it or perhaps make your own film.

  • I’m just a poor pleb looking for some answers ie are we 100% toast? Yes or No would be good.

  • “Everywhere I go there is a great clamor for ‘solutions’ but the only ‘solutions’ anybody wants to talk about is how we’re going to keep all of the stuff that we got up and running, running. This is ‘the psychology of previous investment’. We have invested all of our wealth in a system with no future.” James Howard Kunstler

  • Man, you have no clue…

    Just answer the question, thank you (or are you not that sure what the answer is?)

  • Annie,
    In my mind, in terms of a broad, over-arching, single-term answer to quest to resolve “ambiguity,” I would say: Yes, we are toast. Anthropogenic changes to this planet, not just climate, will … yes … kill most if not all life on this planet. No matter how this catastrophe plays out or how badly the environment is damaged in the end, most certainly large mammals will not survive. Some extremophiles might.

    There you go. Almost everything on this planet will be dead or dieing by the middle of this century. Yes, we are toast. This is my opinion (“but doctor, my delusions are based on solid science!”) and I suspect it is shared by the majority of the active posters on this board.

    Now you have a clear, unambigous answer I am curious as to how you feel.

    Is this the actual question you want answered?

  • Annie,

    if you read all of Guy’s posts, I think the only logical conclusion that can be reached is that we are 100% screwed, it’s too late to DO ANYTHING to save ANYTHING.

    from his March 25th post:

    Until relatively recently, economic collapse was the only hope to prevent runaway greenhouse. Now that we’ve triggered ten self-reinforcing feedback loops, it’s too late to dodge the missile launched by industrial civilization.

    Economic collapse is under way. I see no way to prevent its completion in time to safely decommission the world’s hundreds of nuclear power plants.

  • those of us that are aware of this 100% screwed reality have different responses:

    Resist the industrial machine – until your last breath – Occupy Wall Street and such… although there is a one-man wrecking crew that posts here from time to time that is pretty outspoken…

    Prepare for it, store food, water, guns & ammo (and MOVE AWAY FROM THE United States as fast as you can)

    Do nothing, live your life as is, where is, as if nothing is happening.

  • Jesse, ” the hubris of those who are absolutely 100% sure that all life will die. Both lead to inaction.”

    Does anyone claim have 100% certainty that ALL life will end? It certainly would be hubristic to claim that kind of surity! I myself would not be surprised if runaway global warming leads to a Venus effect where the oceans boil away, but obviously that won’t happen in our lifetimes, so we can’t know one way or the other.

    But even if I did feel sure that was going to happen, it doesn’t follow that inaction is the only response, at all, anymore than patients receiving a diagnosis of terminal cancer all react the same way.

    I think there is value in action, and value in informing others who may just be too busy to be aware. Although I always “cared” about nature, I was until recent years oblivious to how rapidly it is being destroyed – and so I’m deeply grateful to those who were enlightened before me who have helped me, either personally or through their writings and movies, to learn the dimensions and come to terms with NTE.

    Being an Occupier feels good to me!

    When/how will “Somewhere in New Mexico” be available to wider audiences…Mike??

  • Madmanintheattic/Pat,

    Thank you for your comments. However, until a Professor emeritus of natural resources and environment and his director of film comes straight out and says, ‘We are all 100% toast’ I’ll continue with the assumption we’re 99%(?) toast. Fortunately (or unfortunately) some of us will be young enough to find out whether we were 100% toast in 30 years time.

  • Hey Annie,
    Some of us are old enough (58) to be alive in 30 years time. If I make it another 30 I’ll still be younger than 75% of my grandparents were when they shucked off this mortal coil and passed beyond this veil of tears. For quite some time now I have had the (admittedly perverse) goal of staying alive long enough to see sufficient detail and resolution of events and trends to have a valid and reliable notion of how the collapse “really” transpired. I don’t particularly want to live to be that old even within our previously intact “normal” way of life. Unfortunately I failed in my life-boat attempts years ago and never recovered sufficiently to try again but I think the way things are going I will become food for something before I get a chance to see how it all “went down.”

  • Hi Annie,
    I think the point I was making is that no one can say we are 100% toast, nor can anyone say we are not. It would be Hubris for anyone to give you that answer. That is why I say fight. At any rate, even if some life and maybe some people survive, that’s still billions of people and most of earths species who die. So yes, resist. and if it does turn out to be total extinction, then at least we did not just let it happen.

    Hi Pat,
    One man wrecking crew? Maybe in my dreams! Funny how I finally dragged my somewhat banged up self and my bicycle out of the building the other day only to be told by a somewhat nonviolent religious young man (actually a very nice person) that violence was not the answer. How come every time some cop beats the hell out of you for no good reason you get accused of violence? At this point, I feel a lot more wrecked than wrecker. What the hell, if I gotta get wrecked, at least it’s for a good reason. Better than drinking yourself to death.

    As far as science goes, being 100% sure of anything seems to me to be more in the domain of religion. I have had very bad experiences with religion. I guess I am an agnostic doomer, or something like that. or maybe just a heretical doomer. kind of an Arian visigoth doomer. (That would be Arian as in heretics, not Aryan as in self deluded master race.)

    My partner Pepper just chimed in. She says maybe the ones who realize that we are facing doom are the ones who get to survive, still sounds a little like religion though, the whole chosen few thing. I think I am quite willing to turn the world over to the inuit, inupiat, or maybe the Tierra del Fuegans.

    Understand, I’m not trying to save civilization here. Civilization is the enemy.

    Yeah, so maybe we do turn into Venus. But no one can say for sure, so let’s get working on preventing it. The hopeless causes are the most honorable.

  • Is there any hope? Hahaha! How the hell could there be hope when a large segment of the population won’t even acknowledge that there is a problem? Come on people, get off those drugs; There would slim to zero chance if the world gave a concerted effort to do something significant at this 12th hour – much less that we are resigned to do NOTHING.

  • @ Jesse

    The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight. They had thought with some reason that there is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor.
    Albert Camus

  • .
    Doomers and Pre-doomers

    “Pre-doomers” and “doomers,” one finds,
    Divide people of earth in two kinds:
    Early explorers
    Glimpsing the horrors,
    And the rest, who’ll soon change their minds.

  • Bailey:

    Worse than nothing, doing nothing would be an improvement!


    here’s the thing: Guy says that “Resistance is fertile.” So, it seems to me that if one is going to resist with the idea of making a difference, then one might be well served to pick the one thing that MIGHT make a difference.

    IMO, I agree with NBL’s premise that we are already in overshoot and that real pain and suffering is coming (how soon, nobody knows). The one thing that we could do that would make a real difference is shutting down the nuclear power plants and somehow securing the nuclear material. I don’t even know if this is possible. But, at least some folks could get busy on HOW to make this happen.

    Here are some ideas to shut down Nuclear Power Plants:

    1) Stop using electricity so they are not needed, somehow fund the shut down of all plants.

    2) Pass laws to forbid their use and fund the shut down of all plants.

    I know, it’s hopeless, but very honorable!

    If you told me 10 years ago that I would be willing to hold up a “No Nukes” sign at a state capitol, I would have laughed.

  • Pat, there are three assumptions there that do not necessarily apply:

    1. futile and 2. hopeless and 3. labor

    1. futile – we don’t know that it is futile

    2. hopeless – some people have hope (not me, but that doesn’t mean others don’t)

    3. labor – not everyone looks at resistence (which can take many forms, including just rejecting the norms of consumerist society and living a different way, or more actively fighting the oligarchs) as labor. Some people look at resistence as fun!

  • Pat: isn’t it amazing that phosphates and nitrogen are the top two polluters of our nations rivers and streams, according to the report released yesterday (i posted it on the last thread, at the bottom)?!

    Looks like the major business model of large corporations are directly anti-environment (almost by definition, eh).

    Speak Softly: damn right! (8:13 comment)

    annie: not that you should care about anyone else’s opinion, but here’s mine for comparison (and i’d enjoy hearing yours). After inspecting all the evidence, i can’t help feeling that civilization has been going the wrong (self-defeating/omnicidal)way for so long that the inherent self-destruction is coming due faster than i once expected (not in my lifetime, previously). As Gail points out, trees are dying on a global scale from all the pollution we continue to dump into the air. As Kathy has pointed out regarding nuclear radiation – all of it, from the first blast to today is still around and being added to each second of every day. Others have pointed out the on-going social collapse, economic collapse, resource scarcity, water problems, diseases, die-offs, government/corporate take-over-evolving police state, and on and on – we’re living it while we’re watching it happen! The way all of these trends are going is phyically represented by Paul’s posting of entropy (loosely, “the deterioration of all things”, though it really has to do with heat). We’re on our way out and i’ve guessed it will be undeniable by 2019 (you can join Pat and i, if you care to, and pick a day that the collapse will significantly become apparent – light’s out, no government, no running water, radiation from nukes melting down – the whole 9 yards, and post it on whatever thread you care to), Pat’s guess, by the way, is next year.

    i seriously don’t think anyone on earth will make it out of the 2020’s and i’m living my life accordingly.

    [i’m an avid anti-fracking activist in PA – i got to speak to our state senator on Tuesday with a group of 5 other people from Sierra Club, Food and Water Watch, & the League of Women Voters. We came armed with data, petitions, business sign-ons, personal stories, scientific studies, & i gave a 2 min speech (as did two others but on different aspects) about the many hazards of this extraction process. In the end the kindly senator, who is staunchly against pipelines declined to co-sponsor the moratorium on fracking that we were asking for, and gave clear, practical reasons why he couldn’t – or rather “we’re better served” as his constituents if he continues in his role as mediator, trying to get the Republicans to concede some and compromise a little their wanton distruction. That going all out for a stoppage is a waste of time (“the horse is already out of the barn”) and that doing so creates political opposition when HE has a bill he wants passed or co-sponsored – that’s the way politics works in our state. We’re not giving up.]

    Madman: i’m with you there (12:08).

    Mike Sosebee: i can’t wait to see your film and will insist on taking my wife (who doesn’t believe it – she thinks this way of life is going to keep going for a long time before anything serious happens and has the “good job” in my family) and others, and i’ll recommend it to everyone. i took my 9th grade grandson to see Chasing Ice and he was stunned, like me. Thanks for the post. i appreciate your explanations and thought they were crystal clear.

  • oh, on the breakdown of civilization front, this is gonna be interesting:

    Saudi heavy weapons supply to Syrian rebels breaks up Arab summit in uproar

    Syrian rebels fighting for control of the Syria’s biggest town, Aleppo, have obtained their first heavy weapons – 220-mm MLRS rocket launchers – through a large-scale supply operation run by Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar bin Sultan, according to debkafile’s exclusive intelligence sources.

    His agents scoured the Balkans nations of Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo and for large wads of cash snapped up Russian-made MLRS (Smerch) and Hurricane 9K57 launchers capable of firing scores of 220-mm rockets to a distance of 70 kilometers.
    The Saudis hope to expedite the rebel capture of the big Syrian Nairab air base attached to Aleppo’s international air port. The Saudi prince has personally taken the Nairab battle under his wing, convinced that it is the key to the conquest of Aleppo, once Syria’s national commercial and population center, after more than a year’s impasse in the battle for its control.
    The fall of this air base would also substantially reduce the big Iranian and Russian airlifts to Assad’s army.

    (read the rest)

  • America: don’t fuck with us! (for your own health, as it turns out)

    Disturbing study finds that more than 110 MILLION Americans have a sexually-transmitted disease•About 20 million Americans diagnosed with new cases of STIs in 2008 – bringing national total to more than 110 million
    •20 per cent of infections are among men and women aged 15-24

    •Human papillomavirus (HPV) is most common

  • .
    The world’s full of pre-doomer folks
    To whom climate warnings are jokes;
    They’ll laugh less at the jest
    Upon joining the rest
    Who found out global warming’s no hoax.

  • .
    In the end, the world will attune
    To the song of the doomer commune:
    Those in the choir
    Can see things are dire;
    The rest will become doomers soon.

  • Ulvfugl and Annie
    I posted this late on the last thread.


    Thank you so very much for that link, my comment was actually a well intentioned sarcy jibe hoping you might google them… and eff me you DO know who and what they are/were, kudos man, must’ve missed the link when you posted it first time round, meant the world to me they did, consumed my teenage years. never occurred to me to keep up to speed with penny’s current world, Steve kinda sold out with the gathering of 5000 shit which was the last I’d heard of what remained of the remnants, I’ve got the symbol on my vintage ’77 black and maple precision bass (waters one) – non attatchment be damned.
    Thanks for the memories. And Annie’s right, much as I hate the dreck that go by the name “politicians” Salmond is trouble for the London establishment, he might not make it to the referendum IMHO.
    Cheers man.
    Guy, I’m seriously off topic, consider my wrist slapped.

    thanks Guy for the personal message and …ahem I’ll move on now this latest thread is fascinating

  • BenjaminTheDonkey thumbs up on the rhymes!

  • Mike, thanks dude, and best of luck with the film!

  • “I think the point I was making is that no one can say we are 100% toast, nor can anyone say we are not. It would be Hubris for anyone to give you that answer. That is why I say fight. At any rate, even if some life and maybe some people survive, that’s still billions of people and most of earths species who die. So yes, resist. and if it does turn out to be total extinction, then at least we did not just let it happen.”

    Thank you, Jesse. That makes total sense to me and is not in the least ambiguous. I’ll keep on keeping on :-) Vive La Revolution!

  • annie,

    As a physician who deals with life and death issues every day, I can state – unequivocally – Yes. We are all 100% toast.

    Every life ends. It’s all a matter of how and when. When I’m gone, the world ends for me. No one survives for me because I don’t exist any more. The same will be said for you.

    I know that you’re asking about extinction of all life on the planet, but ultimately, it doesn’t matter. All life dies. All of it. Period. At some point the entire planet dies. Eventually, the entire cosmos dies. Again, it’s all just a matter of how and when.

    You seem to want a definite answer and that’s about as definite as it gets for anyone.

  • In case you haven’t been keeping up with global finance, what happened on that little island over by Turkey is about to become the norm for the entire western banking system (Eurozone, Canada and probably USA).
    So do yourself a favor and take whatever money you have in the bank out of said bank. Just a suggestion.

    In other news (anti-propaganda):

    Arnie Gundersen, Fairewinds Chief Engineer: I think my leak rate, and the amount of cesium that is in that leak rate, match up a lot better with the exposures people in Japan really got.

    The IAEA says 100 people are going to die from this. I think it’s going to be a thousand times higher than that.

    The difference is in the assumptions. I think my assumptions are supported a lot more by the data in the field, than the IAEA’s hiding behind some old studies.

  • mini-movie about bees, trust, and Summer Rayne Oakes:

    The “End of Bees film” for ABOVE-Magazine featuring Summer Rayne Oakes
    roughly 6 min.

  • “I know that you’re asking about extinction of all life on the planet, but ultimately, it doesn’t matter. All life dies. All of it. Period. At some point the entire planet dies. Eventually, the entire cosmos dies. Again, it’s all just a matter of how and when.”

    Yes, I’m fully aware of that, but thanks for your input, Doctor.

  • ..I mean “ignites trapped” bubbles. Anyhow, some cool photos.

  • @Tom

    “In case you haven’t been keeping up with global finance, what happened on that little island over by Turkey is about to become the norm for the entire western banking system (Eurozone, Canada and probably USA).”

    Ellen Brown writing for CounterPunch explains how it’s gonna go down.

    It Can Happen Here
    The Confiscation Scheme Planned for US and UK Depositors

  • Is there a difference between “giving up” and “making a conscious choice to sit down and do nothing”?

    On the question of ambiguity:

    If we turn out not to be screwed, sit down and do nothing. Stop making things worse. Try and figure out why it’s happening. Tell others what you figure out. Maybe together you can do something useful and fun – however you decide to define “useful” and “fun”.

    If we turn out to to be screwed, sit down and do nothing. Entertain and amaze your friends by figuring out why it happened, and then telling them. Maybe together you can do something useful and fun to make the remaining time more interesting and enjoyable. Why die in any more misery than you have to?

    If there is no way to tell whether we’re screwed or not, sit down and do nothing. Try and figure out what’s really happening. Tell others what you figure out. Maybe together you can do something useful and fun – however you decide to define “useful” and “fun”.

    Basically, whether we’re screwed or not, the answer is the same. Stop running around like a headless chicken, Sit down and think about what’s going on. Think as deeply as you are able. Share your thoughts with others. No matter what ends up happening, I’m pretty sure that approach will pay off.

  • If Paul Chefurka includes resistance as useful and fun, then I agree completely. Sitting down and doing nothing, on the other hand, is capitulating to imperialism. I could deliver no apology to non-human species and future generations of humans big enough to forgo resistance and give in to imperialism.

  • Benjamin the Donkey,

    I really like the “pre-doomer” moniker for our not-yet-believing friends. (Meant to say so on the previous thread.)

  • annie: Yes, I’m fully aware of that, but thanks for your input, Doctor.

    Yeah, I figured you were aware of the distinction, but nonetheless, I think it’s important to remind ourselves sometimes (this isn’t directed exclusively to you, btw).

    Oftentimes I find that we are so worried about whether or not we’re going to die that we forget to live. The point is that yes we are all going to die and yes, it’s almost certainly going to be a very sudden and complete die-off for most of the lifeforms on the planet, thanks to our reckless ways, but each of us is alive right now. Aside from the acts of suicide or murder, (and even those are debatable), none of us has any control of how long we live or how long anyone else lives. But we do have control over how we live, right now.

    Instead of focusing on whether or not we’re all dead soon, it seems it would be better if we focused on whether or not we’re all living now before we die.

    As to the certainty of near term extinction: no one alive will ever know whether it happens or not. By definition, we can’t know since we all have to die in order for it to become true.

  • Mike Sosebee, will the film be shown on screens across the country? Or is it going to be only on DVD? If it’s not going to be distributed, I would love the opportunity to show it at our local university. I have several friends who are professors and as we near the end of the semester this might be just the thing that they would show giving extra credit to those who attend.

  • Tom: So do yourself a favor and take whatever money you have in the bank out of said bank. Just a suggestion.

    That one made me laugh out loud. If they decide to take money from those with bank deposits, I think I’ll be just fine. Now, if they decide to take some of my debt, I could get on board with THAT in a heartbeat! :-)

  • Sorry for commenting without reading everything everyone said, but I liked the comment made by Speak Softly.

    I’m looking forward to seeing this movie. Thanks

  • Guy,

    “If Paul Chefurka includes resistance as useful and fun, then I agree completely. Sitting down and doing nothing, on the other hand, is capitulating to imperialism.”

    First, I no longer presume to tell anyone what they ought to do. I would prefer that we each get to decide that for ourselves, to the extent we are able. All I ask is that we think as much about what we are doing, and why, as possible. If someone wants to fight imperialism, fine. If someone wants to travel to India to find themselves, fine. If someone just wants to stay home and toke up, that’s fine too.

    Also, I’m really not much into “fighting” things. Not because they don’t deserve to be resisted, but because I think fighting them merely supports them. It’s a philosophical thang – “What we resist, persists” and all that. Rather than directly fight a powerful adversary, it may be better simply to create more attractive alternatives. But if you’re the fightin’ sort, by all means have at it.

    Lastly, why is a man who believes in near-term extinction promoting a long-term project like fighting imperialism – an “ism” that’s been around for mumble-hundred years? It seems a bit dissonant to me.

  • “Noam Chomsky: If Nuclear War Doesn’t Get Us, Climate Change Will
    The growing threats of nuclear war and environmental catastrophe make it hard to bet on the survival of our species.”

  • Thank you, Paul Chefurka, for your wise advice. I think I’d already realized, a long time ago, that ‘whether we’re screwed or not, the answer is the same’. I’m off to travel Europe this weekend and will be ‘peacefully’ protesting in solidarity with my European sisters and brothers. Whether it makes a difference or not, it is ‘right action’ for ‘me’. No doubt I’ll have fun along the way.

  • Annie – per the folks at Arctic News we are toast unless we do geoengineering (which I don’t advocate)

  • Paul, there was one headless chicken that didn’t run around aimlessly – apparently, having retained the brain stem he was unaware that he had no head. Seems like there must be a message there…maybe a limerick message? It may come to me
    September 10th, 1945 finds a strapping (but tender) young rooster pecking through the dust of Fruita, Colorado. The unsuspecting bird had never looked so delicious as he did that, now famous, day. Clara Olsen was planning on featuring the plump chicken in the evening meal. Husband Lloyd Olsen was sent out, on a very routine mission, to prepare the designated fryer for the pan. Nothing about this task turned out to be routine. Lloyd knew his mother-in-law would be dining with them and would savor the neck. He positioned his ax precisely, estimating just the right tolerances, to leave a generous neck bone. “It was as important to suck-up to your mother-in-law in the 40’s as it is today.” A skillful blow was executed and the chicken staggered around like most freshly terminated poultry.

    Then the determined bird shook off the traumatic event and never looked back. Mike (it is unclear when the famous rooster took on the name) returned to his job of being a chicken. He pecked for food and preened his feathers just like the rest of his barnyard buddies.

    When Olsen found Mike the next morning, sleeping with his “head” under his wing, he decided that if Mike had that much will to live, he would figure out a way to feed and water him. With an eyedropper Mike was given grain and water. It was becoming obvious that Mike was special. A week into Mike’s new life Olsen packed him up and took him 250 miles to the University of Utah in Salt Lake City . The skeptical scientists were eager to answer all the questions regarding Mike’s amazing ability to survive with no head. It was determined that ax blade had missed the jugular vein and a clot had prevented Mike from bleeding to death. Although most of his head was in a jar, most of his brain stem and one ear was left on his body. Since most of a chicken’s reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem Mike was able to remain quite healthy.
    more on the life of this remarkable bird at :)

  • seems i forgot to link to the mini-movie i posted above; here it is:


  • Tom
    IMO, no its more than an opinion actually, transferring hard tangible currency from one’s legalized extortionist of choice to backyard national is the single most effective way of trashing the economic system.
    Long story short, actual cash leaving the myriad EOC’s seriously deflates the credit side of the ledger leaving said EOC drowning or at least head bobbing in a sea of red, fairly quickly said EOC has trans-national fund transfer issues, believe me this matters big time, letters of credit become an issue – become a problem – grind to a halt in shortish order as the actual funds needed for these transactions are diminished or suspicion of funding deficit abounds among said myriad EOC’s – what fun! supertankers full of poverty stricken Asian manufactured goodies for the greedy lie docked up. Sugar in the fuel tank…. deflationary depression follows and our pale blue dot gets a much needed break from IndCiv. not enough to save our sorry arses, but you gotta take small victories while you can, one huge caveat is my worry about the DD causing a fuel shortage which may imperil the operability of the 400 odd fukes.

    I urge everyone to take this course of action, it will surely crash the economic system if done on a big enough scale, hell if the Cyprus debacle is anything to go by yer money isn’t going to be worth jack any way, first they came for the wealthy, then for the well off, then the doing-ok, then the poor, and when they came for my money…… you get the drift, the Cyprus blueprint will move down through the ranks of all classes until the vampire squid parasite bastards impoverish all.
    Hey I live hand to mouth so it’s easy for me to recommend this course of action but little withdrawals maketh big bank runs, Paul C. I think you are a f…ing genius but I’m with Guy, I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let the guilty have their own way right up to the point where the entire ship sinks beneath the waves, I’m want to push some heads underwater NOW.

  • @Paul Chefurka

    “If someone just wants to stay home and toke up, that’s fine too.”

    That comment reminded me a of funny story from back in the day. Some of you may remember the tune One Toke Over The Line by Brewer and Shipley.

    The story goes that Lawrence Welk heard the song one day and because the lyrics contained the words Jesus and Mary he decided to play the song on his television show. Here it is. “Toking” with Lawrence Welk 8-)

  • This discussion about whether we are toast or not… or whether it’s 100% certain, or not.

    Seem to recall Guy did a book about ‘Teachable moments’ or something.

    This ought to be a ‘teachable moment’, no ?

    Everyone in Europe used to believe, for hundreds of years, that God took care of everything. If bad things happened, it was because people were bad, and God was showing his disapproval.

    Even if there was no evidence for that view, nobody understood the idea that belief should be related to evidence, anyway. They believed what they were told, and the Church told them what to believe. And if you believed anything else, they burned you alive, as a warning to others. If your house was struck by lightning, it must be because you didn’t pray enough, or you coveted your neighbour’s wife or his ox, or whatever.

    But then there was the Lisbon Earthquake, in 1755. That was a ‘teachable moment’. How come all those people died ? They couldn’t ALL have been wicked sinners. People began scratching their heads and thinking.

    One of the smartest people on this site, indeed, possibly one of the smartest people around, poses a question to one of the smartest people on this site, indeed, one of the smartest people around….

    …why is a man who believes in near-term extinction promoting a long-term project like fighting imperialism – an “ism” that’s been around for mumble-hundred years? It seems a bit dissonant to me.

    Surely, this is a teachable moment.

    Paul C. sees a contradiction. I don’t. I believe we are ramping up to a major extinction event of the kind we see recorded in the geological record. We can’t see it easily, because, relative to our own life times, even centuries seem a long time. But for Earth, centuries are nano nano nano seconds, we are not even blips on the meter.

    I don’t think this extinction can be avoided. It’s already rolling out.
    I don’t see any way how it can be avoided. Because the trends of recent times and today look likely to continue, and ensure that it happens.

    But the trends could change. An asteroid impact, a supervolcanic eruption, a major pandemic, another world war, anything which crashes human numbers and human industrial activity, would change the future, would change the CO2 and NOX emissions.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean a BETTER future for humans. But there isn’t just one fixed certain future, is there, there’s a range of possibilities.

    And it must be absolutely certain that if EVERYONE alive decided to act in a particular way, that would change the course of history. But it’s also certain that everyone alive will not, or at least, the odds seem against, don’t they ?

    The thing is, even though I believe that NTE is inevitable, I don’t know, and can’t say, when. All I see is the constant and unremitting deterioration. Ever more forest clearance, ever more plastic in the oceans. That sort of thing.

    This might continue for a longish time. A hundred years. Or we might be done in 20. It’s very hard to tell. I try to keep as well informed as possible.

    The European Space Agency computer modelling of the loss of Arctic sea ice was absolutely superb. Science at its best. Except they had the year as 2040 something, and it happened in 2012. That’s the margin of error. It’s not their fault. They are very good at their jobs. But all the time, we’re getting ‘surprised’ by stuff happening much sooner than anyone expected.

    I take Guy’s side, not Paul’s. The way I see it, humans have caused this catastrophe. It was foreseen and could have been avoided. They were playing with matches and they set fire to the house. We had the knowledge. We had a choice. We could have acted differently. There are still some whales around because a political decision was made to end commercial whaling. That was also an ethical decision.

    Just because NTE is inevitable, is no reason not to fight, in my view. Because, it is an ethical issue. It’s not about winning or losing. It’s about what is right.

  • Here’s an amazing satellite animation compiled by ‘A Team’ on “Arctic Sea Ice” blog, showing the massive recent break up of the Arctic ice pack.

  • Tom C – that was great, thanks! Always like reading Hedges and i discovered Adbuster’s about 3 years ago and read it now and then.

    With all kinds of things falling apart, not least of which is the very earth beneath our feet: opening up (volcanic uptick), collapsing into sinkholes, earthquakes (even man-made ones via fracking), and lately Whidbey Island, here’s another, on the other side of the pond.

    White Cliffs collapse: Tons of chalk fall into the Channel near Dover

  • @ Tom C

    pertinent is right! great link, thanks.

  • ENE has a couple good ones on Fukushima, which is being assessed worse everyday it seems:

    (2 min. audio)

  • @ Tom

    Yeah, but Tom, c’mon, it’s chalk, it’s soft and crumbly, there’d be something wrong if it didn’t fall into the sea… it happens all the time, just that this is a big lump. Not really very doomy, unless your house happens to be on the cliff top ;-)

  • and this one:

    Japan Study: Fukushima fallout “unlike the past nuclear accidents” — Radioactive silver prominently observed

  • Hey Ulv: that’s what they said at Whidbey – hey it’s dirt, it’s supposed to crumble into the sea, but this was a significant heap all at once.

  • calls are gettin’ louder against capitalism and from another fightin’ former professor:

    (last lines):
    I argue perhaps a bit more radically, because I know the victims. The German tax evasion in Switzerland does not interest me, because no one dies from it. But at the hospital in Kinshasa, there are no antibiotics, people die when they are infected from a cut. And where is the money to change that? With the bandits in Zurich, the banks. At that time I was a professor, the most pleasant job there is, you receive your salary without achievement control, then my seat in Parliament and, of course, the UN, and they paid for my co-workers and my travels. These incredible privileges obligate me to fight.

  • If you want to do things, things you can do….

  • “Lastly, why is a man who believes in near-term extinction promoting a long-term project like fighting imperialism – an “ism” that’s been around for mumble-hundred years?”

    At least for me, any and all efforts to terminate the most heinous empire in history are better than supporting it. I briefly explained my perspective in December 2011 at Transition Voice:

  • Wow, thanks ulvfugl, that Bob Waldrop is something else! 412 pages of good stuff, thank you. his website is very interesting too, he’s way out there…

  • A lot of people complain to me that my message is so dark. It’s actually quite optimistic. I show people who understand what’s happening who have made the decision to live in joy, free of the trappings of city life. Comforts are few. Satisfaction high.

    Which brings me to mention a particular woman that made it into the film, Mary Burton Risley, the founder of the Land Trust in New Mexico. Her personal realization of the violence of Western Culture drove her to found this settlement for human beings to live with grace and dignity; completely off-grid caretakers of the land-strength. If we’re going to have any chance of survival we need to get back to the land as caretakers first. Who knows…we might save this rock after all?

  • Guy, that article has some great comments underneath:

    Heila says:
    December 11, 2011 at 4:54 pm
    There is a movement to dismantle industrial civilization and create healthy human cultures. Deep Green Resistance. There are groups all over the US, in the UK, and Australia. We are recruiting.

    the deepgreenresistance website is pretty scary!

  • From woofie’s ipermiesample.pdf

    Resist! Oppose all people and systems
    who do not care for people, do not care
    for the planet, and do not have a care for
    the future.

  • I wonder how fast you get a letter from the IRS if you resist.

    Also, You can’t resist from jail.

  • @ Mike Sosebee

    Who knows…we might save this rock after all?

    I think that sort of talk just adds confusion.

    The rock is fine. It’ll keep on going. Just like Mars. Without any atmosphere, oceans, or living things.

    As I understand it, what we have now, re the melting Arctic, melting permafrost, Guy’s list of 10 ish irreversible feedbacks, is the result of what we DID, already, 30 or so years ago.

    We can’t go back and fix that, can we. Emissions have never stopped rising, they’ve speeded up. What we do now, decides what we have in 30 or so years time. Imagine what that is going to be like !

    We’ve destabilised the system. I know that if you look out of the window, everything looks much the same as yesterday, as last year. But the chemistry of the atmosphere has never been changed as fast as this for millions and millions of years, and the repercussions are going to be DRAMATIC, and they are not going to stop being dramatic, whatever we do now.

    There’s no sign the lunatics in charge of governments and corporations are going to cut emissions of CO2, is there ? I don’t see any. And, if the Arctic ice goes this summer, and that calculation by Wadhams was correct, it’s equivalent to adding 20 years worth of CO2, or Lovelock’s version, equivalent to all previous emissions ( not clear how they do those calculations ).

    Basically, the thing is already pretty much out of control. Try and save any wildlife, any habitat, for as long as possible, because then it might have a chance. Once it’s extinct, it has no chance. People who try to do that are my friends. The rest, not. People who just want to save themselves are idiots, because without a viable biosphere, everybody dies anyway.

    You know, imagine trying to live on Mars. No space suit. No water. No soil. No food. That’s what you get with just saving the rock called Earth without the ecology.

  • I’ve written to the IRS. They’ve not responded. I suspect they don’t understand where I’m coming from. Or maybe they’re busy putting the hammer on the little people to make the world safe for Bill Gates and his ilk.

  • White cliffs of Dover ?

  • ulvfugl

    I agree, not sure what Mike Sosebee is thinking, and I’m not sure if his film spells it out exactly like Guy spells it out.

    We all know what would happen if EVERYONE became aware – total chaos very quickly – just like if the President came on the air and told everyone that a meteor the size of Texas was going to hit the Earth in 24 hours.

    I personally think the primary objective should be to get the nuclear power plants shut down in an orderly fashion and to somehow get the nuclear material stored as best as we can. If there is anything that will make a difference to possibly SOMETHING surviving, that is it, IMO.

  • Erm, re tax people and all other authorities and enforcers who don’t care, etc… well, I think you have to be cunning. Like the wolves and coyotes and foxes and wolverines and bears and every other thing that still survives that people have been trying to shoot and trap and poison. If you play by the system’s rules, they’ll send you to the slaughterhouse like the sheep and the cattle. that’s what they want, so don’t follow those rules, it’s hard, I know, I’ve been doing it all my life. Become invisible…

  • @ pat

    ..get the nuclear power plants shut down in an orderly fashion…

    And who can do that ? Not hippies or greenies or permies. It heeds highly trained properly paid disciplined people who know exactly what they are doing, and with some sort of overall command structure to organise the project over a long period of time.

    USA seems to be becoming increasingly dysfunctional in all those areas.

    Other countries are not even thinking that way, they want to build more, e.g. I think Russia is going to build one for Turkey, China is intending to build scores.

  • If you had terminal cancer would you want the Dr. to tell you or would you prefer to not know. I think the vast majority would rather know so they can decide how to live the rest of their lives, avoid treatment that won’t do any good, etc. If our government knew an asteroid was heading right to earth and was going to demolish the planet in 3 weeks, should they tell. That seems a harder call, but I think in the end people would want to know for the same reason they want to know if they have a terminal disease. It appears however most people would rather not know that we are committing planetary suicide. I think that the truth is always better than ignorance.

  • I took a physical geography course in my spare time about 8 years ago. One of the most useful courses I’ve ever taken BTW. There was a chapter in the textbook that talked about mapping geology. It described how it took an army of geographers several years to map and document the Grand Canyon, a relatively accessible area considering millions of years of erosion have laid bare the history and all one need do is to be able to decipher the writing in the rocks. Not that hard. What that chapter demonstrated to me was how little we actually know (or will ever know) of this earth. So here’s what I know: Can the Earth heal itself? Of course. She’s doing that now.

  • pat: I personally think the primary objective should be to get the nuclear power plants shut down in an orderly fashion and to somehow get the nuclear material stored as best as we can. If there is anything that will make a difference to possibly SOMETHING surviving, that is it, IMO.

    I agree completely. I was all about trying to do something until I realized just how tenuous was the nuclear situation. When the industrial complex collapses, assuming nothing substantive has been done about the nuclear issue, then it’s game over. All of our efforts will be for naught then other than the ones we undertook purely for our own enjoyment/satisfaction.

    Others in the space have argued that because there are birds flying about and vegetation growing at the Chernobyl site that it’s proof we can survive nuclear meltdown. But what they fail to realize or acknowledge is that trying to contain that catastrophe likely brought down the former Soviet Union. Post-collapse there won’t be any excess energy to spend on containing one nuclear meltdown, much less 400+.

    We’ve never before seen an out of control nuclear meltdown with no effort to try to contain it. I suspect one such event would be sufficient to sicken and likely kill millions, if not billions. 400+? Not survivable anywhere on the planet.

  • @Woofie

    “Try and save any wildlife, any habitat, for as long as possible, because then it might have a chance. Once it’s extinct, it has no chance.”

    Cheap thrills. I snapped this image a few days ago shortly after sunrise on this place where I inhabit.

    I’m gonna plant some heirloom shelling peas – ‘Progress #9’ and ‘Bloomsdale’ heirloom spinach today. Most of my raised beds still have snow on them but one them is snow free so in go the seeds. I applied a generous amount of compost last fall so no bed preparation is needed since I practice no till methods when practicable. Podzolization and all that. Noted a pair of bluebirds on one of my nesting boxes today as well. The red tailed hawks are overhead making their shrieking sounds and crusin’ the thermals so the bluebirds are a bit timid and rightfully so.

  • .
    The Pre-Doomer’s Guide

    Unexpectedly, doom will betide
    The obvious truth you denied:
    That everyone lied,
    We’re about to be fried,
    And you’re needing The Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

    The world upon which you relied
    Will be gone when the doom hits worldwide;
    It hits where you reside—
    You’ll be wise to provide
    Yourself with The Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

    This coming best-seller worldwide
    Will be of help once you decide
    That from what all’s implied,
    It will be like we died;
    It’s there in The Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

    The entrance to hell opens wide:
    Abandon all hope for the ride;
    You’ll be sitting inside
    Charon’s boat as it’s plied—
    Look it up in the Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

    When thinking about suicide,
    And why the hell you ever tried,
    With labels applied
    To grief stages inside,
    There’s advice in the Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

    And then there’s stuff people deride:
    Like food to eat, both canned and dried,
    Guns and ammo you hide,
    The doomstead supplied—
    This and more’s in The Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

    So when everything starts to slide
    To the point you can no longer hide,
    You’ll be glad you complied—
    You’ll be prepping with pride!
    All because of the The Pre-Doomer’s Guide.

  • Nuclear Plant Decommissioning is not cheap
    Most seem now to be put into safestor

    “Safe Enclosure (or Safestor(e) SAFSTOR): This option postpones the final removal of controls for a longer period, usually in the order of 40 to 60 years. The facility is placed into a safe storage configuration until the eventual dismantling and decontamination activities occur.”

    Costs range from 300 million to over 1 billion

    The best thing we could do for the future is get 439 plants world wide (perhaps as many as 700 reactors) totally decommissioned. But will governments pay the costs when the economy of the world is collapsing. Will they accept losing that energy and expending the energy to decommission when we are at Peak Oil?

  • @ Guy

    …all efforts to terminate the most heinous empire in history are better than supporting it.

    Thing is, with earlier empires, Aleaxander’s, the Roman, the British, individuals and groups did fight, as a matter of honour and survival, but it didn’t make any difference, the empires still expanded and obliterated all opposition. Some names of heros live on, but nobody really knows or cares much. But this time it’s different. It’s everybody’s future and every living thing’s future.

    I admire Jesse Schultz for his courage to take a stand. He shouldn’t need to do that at his age. It’s a young person’s job. I’m too old to fight with policeman and all that stuff.
    Perhaps none of it makes any difference but at least one has some dignity and self-respect.

    But of you study the older empires, seems pretty clear, this empire is all rotten and falling apart anyway. It’s not the Russians and Chinese that are the threat, it’s being looted and vandalised from within by the monsters it’s created, the corporations. They were intended, like pirate ships, to go out and pillage the world and bring home the plunder, and they do that, but they found that it’s even easier to stay home and pay the congress and senate for licenses to rip off their fellow citizens in every way conceivable. Like billions of dollars for a Little Crappy Ship that’s no use.
    No way to run an empire. And nobody has a clue how to fix the mess, they just keep making it worse. It’s sinking but how long it’ll last is anybody’s guess, and what happens in the death throes….

  • “Every revolution has failed. And if that’s not sufficient reason to launch a revolution, I don’t know what is. The revolution is dead: Viva la revolution!” (Nature Bats Last, December 2010)

  • Whenever I wrote my legislators expressing my outrage I found summons for jury duty in my mailbox. WTF?

  • .
    Some people deal with the sting,
    Others go have a last fling;
    Some people try,
    Others give up and die:
    Everyone does their own thing.

  • .
    When pre-doomers doubt that we’re toast,
    Here’s a straightforward doomer riposte:
    When we give up the ghost,
    The thing we’re like most
    Is charred black completely burnt roast.