Peak Patriarchy?

Allan Savory has been receiving a lot of attention based on his recent TED talk. I hate to dignify his ludicrous ideas with a response, even in this this little-read space, but I can’t seem to help myself. Savory’s general ideas are utter nonsense, as I will illustrate in this brief essay. Further, as you can see in his TED talk, he practices an approach steeped in the command-and-control patriarchal hubris for which civilized humans have become infamous and which led directly to the disaster in which we find ourselves firmly ensconced. Not surprisingly, many of my white male colleagues fail to see the ongoing disasters for what they are.

Admitting he participated in the murder of 40,000 elephants, Savory belatedly discovered the strategy failed to accomplish the stated objective. Rather that admit failure, he proposes an exponential increase in omnicide, specifically by using livestock to destroy the remaining life in the world’s grasslands.

If you’re looking for a more extreme example of command-and-control management underlain by patriarchal hubris, you might be looking a long time.

Savory repeatedly uses the phrase, “mimicking nature” as if speaking the words makes it so. Instead of mimicking abusing nature with implements of destruction, perhaps we could instead rely upon native species and natural processes (e.g., fire allowed to spread at the scale, frequency, and season coincident with the evolutionary history of organisms in an area). Grazing is not the same as blazing, disturbance advocates aside.

Livestock represent the single most destructive force in the history of western North America, as I explained about 15 months ago. Cattle wreak havoc on soil via several avenues, most notably by compacting soil, removing organic matter, increasing runoff, and decreasing infiltration and percolation of precipitation. The wreaking of havoc is not restricted to soil, but instead extends to other organisms. Exactly nada zilch none zip bupkiss zero species native to North America evolved in the presence of cattle. Don’t even get me started on the completely irrelevant comparison between bison and cattle, two species with disparate behavior, diet, and morphology.

Next up, Savory offers cattle as a cure for global warming. Never mind that methane generated in the stomachs of Savory’s beloved ruminant animals contributes significantly to climate chaos, perhaps surpassing the damage done by automobiles. If you’re looking for logic, look elsewhere.

In other words, Savory proposes using cattle to heal the land (damaged primarily by cattle) while also reversing global warming (by ratcheting up methane production). And yes, people are taking him seriously. Desperate times call for desperate measures, but this is the same old bombing-the-village-to-save-it routine with which we’re all well-acquainted by now.

And, on the topic of logic, what are livestock supposed to do? That’s right, convert plant biomass to animal biomass. Along the way, the animals remove biomass from the land. That’s the whole point of the enterprise, after all: convert biomass into a form suitable for human consumption, and stripping the landbase is collateral damage.

Because this entire notion is nearly too absurd to believe, I insist upon providing a recap. Savory proposes using the single most destructive force in the history of western North America to heal western North America. Were he alive, even George Orwell would be embarrassed. Stunningly, that’s not all. Savory also claims that a primary contributor to climate chaos will be used to reverse climate chaos. And, just to clarify, people are taking seriously Savory and his ideas.

As if logic were not sufficient to put a stop to Savory’s stupidity, we have data. Droves of data. And all those data point in the opposite direction Savory would have us you believe. Consider, as starting points for debunking Savory’s ideas, the following print publication and the online references linked here, here, and here, as well as this essay at Real Climate. Contrary to Savory’s crop-the-photograph approach to presentation of information, these publications are rooted in the process of science.

Briske, D.D., J.D. Derner, J.R. Brown, S.D. Fuhlendorf, W.R. Teague, K.M. Havstad, R.L. Gillen, A.J. Ash, and W.D. Wilms. 2008. Rotational grazing on rangelands: reconciliation of perception and experimental evidence. Rangeland Ecology & Management 61:3–17.

John Carter, Allison Jones, Mary O’Brien, Jonathan Ratner, and George Wuerthner. 2014. Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems. International Journal of Biodiversity,

I am not suggesting these papers mention Savory by name, although they point out that his ideas are deleterious to soil productivity and biological diversity of native species. When acting within their profession, most scientists criticize ideas, not people. More science is described here and here.

Nor am I suggesting science as a panacea. Science as a process and a way of knowing relies upon models, concepts, predictions, and data to generate reliable knowledge. However, science is not capable of addressing some questions, particularly as they apply to the personal lives of individuals. These and a few other caveats notwithstanding, I prefer data-driven science over anecdote-driven marketing for most matters.

Comments 237

  • @ Robin D.


    Why not give them the respect they deserve, as adults, capable of making their own judgements ?

  • @ Robin D.

    The way I see it, Robin, you want to cling to the safety, the refuge of your story.

    But for me, your story is no good. It is all broken. It is no use any more. NTE has pulled it apart and shredded it. All the old stories are broken now.

    I am somewhere else, that you do not comprehend, strange thunder dreams that nobody has known before… I have the power to face these, whatever it costs me, and you do not. That is a big difference. I know sometimes my conduct upsets people here. I return from the torture chamber half mad. I must quickly heal myself for the next ordeal. Nobody who does not have this experience can possibly understand. I make the very best of it. What else can I do ? I don’t need your advice, Robin. When I do need it, I ask for it.

    When a vision comes from the thunder beings of the West, it comes with terror like a thunder storm; but when the storm of vision has passed, the world is greener and happier; for wherever the truth of vision comes upon the world, it is like a rain. The world, you see, is happier after the terror of the storm… you have noticed that truth comes into this world with two faces. One is sad with suffering, and the other laughs; but it is the same face, laughing or weeping… as lightning illuminates the dark, for it is the power of lightning that heyokas have.
    —Black Elk, quoted in Neihardt (1959), p160
    The Heyoka are healers and have many functions, for example healing through laughter and awakening people to deeper meaning and concealed truth and to prepare the people for oncoming disaster with laughter.

  • I don’t need your advice, Robin.

    None proferred.

  • “The Heyoka are healers and have many functions, for example healing through laughter and awakening people to deeper meaning and concealed truth and to prepare the people for oncoming disaster with laughter.”

    This truth breaks my heart into infinite pieces, but I’m getting there :-)

  • China moves mobile missiles near coast amid tensions with Japan over islands

  • Robin Datta, you are correct, sir. May I offer you some advice? Let it go. Indulging in those exchanges puts you in the position of the cat against a battered, damaged mouse (and I’m not talking about spiritual beliefs here).

    BadlandsAK, if there were more people with your kindness and caring, we wouldn’t have a need for antinatalism.

  • Thank you all for your replies.
    Funny you posted that clip, Micah, I am about half way through the movie on netflix and was unsure if I should finish watching it or not.
    I’m not quite ready to declare the earth evil, though I have come across some of the darker elements/energy out there, and even what I thought of as evil. I try to put my trust in the universe, and am only able to do so with the belief, right or wrong, that the universe is benevolent, or at the very least, neutral. We have thrown everything out of balance here on earth, we haven’t incorporated our dark natures, and have left all of the garbage of our sub/unconscious to fester and rot, so now the corrections begin. When I am around people, I can feel their suffering and confusion. So many people are angry and they don’t know why. I know why, you know why. I know that anger and depression are reasonable reactions to the state of the planet, but I struggle with making sure that I don’t lash out.
    Kathy and annie, I do my best with mothering. I was only recently validated as a mother, when of all things, I went for my first mammogram, and the technician happened to be the kindest person I have encountered in life.
    Life can be a mess, but the true surprises are a thing of beauty, and only recognizable when I let go of expectations and trying to control the outcomes. Some days with the kids I am merely a referee, barely able to see everyone through the day alive and breathing, sometimes unscathed, sometimes pretty scathed. Mostly I try to teach them to be kind to others/plants/animals/things/self, and try to acknowledge their feelings and concerns. If a child comes to me and says they are scared of a ghost, I don’t say, oh, there’s no such thing as ghosts, I ask what did it look like? what noise did it make? Children are vastly more perceptive than they are given credit for. I remember. I have pretty much given up on my own future and see myself as a middleman for them, or possibly a guide, to help navigate the emotional storms that are erupting everywhere I go. I’m not sure what more I can do.

  • I refer you to the study – Large predators and Trophic Cascades in the Terrestrial Ecosystems of the Western United States – by Robert l Beshta and William J Ripple, College of Forestry Oregon State University. This appears in the journal Biological Conservation.

    I am one of the very few to comment on this post who have actually used Mr Savory’s methods on a small scale. I have improved soil fertility, dramatically increasing organic material on a VERY tough site using intensive rotational grazing of sheep, goats, ducks, chickens and turkeys as part of a permaculture design. We are about to purchase a pair of oxen and will use them in the same fashion on a different site.

    Having used the methods for five years I consider them to be an essential tool in the permaculture designer’s toolkit.

    I found the personal insults directed at Savory to be unnecessarily peevish and mean spirited – really unproductive and beneath the usual standards of this site. Your insults of Savory truly have the aroma of bruised ego.

    My only personal experience with restoring large landscapes using intensive grazing of large ungulates is in the Yellowstone ecosystem. Personal observation as well as scientific study confirms the beneficial effects of large predators and trophic cascade. Savory had input into the decision to return wolves to the Yellowstone country. He was correct about the principal of trophic cascade and how it would apply to the elk herd and the resurgence of aspen and cottonwood.

    I understand that optimism in any form on your site is considered voodoo. However, your response to Savory really is more knee-jerk than fact based.

  • Thanks, Pym, but noting is in any way meant to belittle anyone. For seven billion plus persons there will be seven billion plus ways to proceed. Expecting those who have proceeded far to retrace their steps would be folly.

    Many commenters on this blog seem a trifle perplexed at some aspects of what they see here. I am taking the liberty of talking to/at them.

  • @Annie, as a day one and lifelong NBL’er who feels the commentary on the board to be so high it would be pointless to add my ten bobs worth… many fine congratulations on tempting me onto the keyboard with the timeless words “jings” and “bairn” a sweet moment in our sour demise, and now I know I’m not he only living soul in our land of degraded hill and deforested glen who browses this space.
    stay safe sister.

  • @dairymandave

    That is an impressive accomplishment by your wife. Before we moved to Rapid City, ‘Mr.’ BadlandsAK and I lived in the small town where he was born and raised. His dad used to run a dairy farm years ago, but now mainly breeds horses. Before the children came along, we used to spend hours, nearly every day, out in the fields with the horses and their babies. One time we decided to count how many were there. 80! 80 horses! I was in heaven. The next season, he had no more time for the horses, because his wife was spiraling into Alzheimer’s. We went out one day and found a dead baby horse. Horses were continually torn and cut up by decrepit fencing. I couldn’t bring myself to spend time there after that. He has finally started cutting back and was able to sell a lot of them, but not many people are buying horses these days.
    A few months ago, I think, you told a story about driving your wife home and finding the way blocked by frogs(!) and though I didn’t get a chance at the time, I wanted to tell you that something similar happened to me once during grad school. I was biking home through campus late one night, only to find not only the path, but the entire surrounding area covered in frogs. Well, I immediately had an existential crisis along with a nervous breakdown, because to hurt one of those frogs would’ve been the end of me, I was so overwhelmed by suffering. I don’t even remember how I got home, but I know I did not hurt even one of those frogs.

  • @ulvfugl New research shows that we have grossly underestimated both the scope and the scale of animal intelligence.
    I figure humans are maybe third or fourth in the intelligence line after whales, dolphins, and elephants, at least.
    Also, it sounds like you are still having pretty bad cluster headaches (understatement, I know) to describe them as ‘strange thunder dreams’. I’ve meant to ask you about them. Funny, to not know someone, but darn, I think about those headaches you get anyway. Blessed curse.

  • Robin Datta, I understood what you meant, and I didn’t think you were trying to belittle anyone. I was just indicating that you seemed to be talking from a position of strength (cat) with someone weak and struggling (mouse)…nothing to do with deliberate cruelty. Cheers.

  • Orlov on Cyprus
    Quite a few people wrote to me over the past week asking about all the noise coming out of Cyprus. If you haven’t heard, there is a financial collapse that is unfolding there: banks are closed and people can’t get at their money. The Cypriot banks are insolvent. This is no surprise: all banks everywhere are insolvent, and would fail immediately were the various types of ongoing bailouts to suddenly stop. These bailouts include an ever-longer list of annoying financial jargon—liquidity injections, quantitative easing, toxic-asset-purchasing by central banks, accounting tricks such as “mark-to-fantasy,” which allows them to make bogus claims as to the value of their assets, yadda-yadda. The point is, the financial system failed in 2008, and stayed that way. The faulty formula behind all modern finance is debt raised to the power of time, and only works when there is exponential growth in economic activity and energy. Energy’s exponential growth stopped in 2005 due to resource depletion; three years later finance collapsed. Permanently. Since then we have been witnessing a global game of “extend and pretend,” which cannot be played indefinitely. If something can’t go on forever, it doesn’t.
    Rest at

  • Anyone noticed the price of oil is creeping up again – Brent at 109.5, WTI at 96.5

  • Yeah frogs! Remember the tadpoles in the mud puddles by the roadside that I brought home and it was then explained to me that they were the early stage of frogs, and not fish. Later in biology I learnt that in a sense they were indeed fish, with their ontogeny recapitulating their phylogeny. It was just that unlike mammals, they had a full set of fully functioning branchial arches, and gills. With a circulatory system of a fish, that transitioned to a rather complex circulatory system of the adult – not quite fishy, and not quite amniote (reptilian and beyond). Dissected them for their anatomy and later for their physiology. Fresh frogs are more aesthetic than stale cadavers. The first time I ate them was in residency at a reception for the incoming batch of residents. Thought that the chicken legs were rather scrawny and tasted a bit different. Later noted that they were being referred to as frogs’ legs. Still prefer the hot buffalo wings from Costco.

  • BadlandsAK, you are very honest and true and I wish the world and some of its inhabitants were more like you. Here’s a little folk story, told by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, in ‘Women Who Run With the Wolves’ which just confirms that you are doing just fine :-)

    The Four Rabbinim

    One night, four rabbinim were visited by an angel who awakened them
    and carried them to the Seventh Vault of the Seventh Heaven. There
    they beheld the sacred Wheel of Ezekiel.
    Somewhere in the descent from Pardes, Paradise, to Earth, one Rabbi,
    having seen such splendour, lost his mind and wandered frothing and
    foaming until the end of his days. The second Rabbi was extremely
    cynical: ‘Oh, I just dreamed Ezekiel’s Wheel, that was all. Nothing
    ‘really’ happened.’ The third Rabbi carried on and on about what he
    had seen, for he was totally obsessed. He lectured and would not stop
    with how it was all constructed and what it all meant… and in this
    way he went astray and betrayed his faith. The fourth Rabbi, who was
    a poet, took a paper in hand and a reed and sat near a window writing
    song after song praising the evening dove, his daughter in her
    cradle, and all the stars in the sky. And he lived his life better
    than before.

  • ‘stay safe sister’

    Ditto, brither… and I dae so hope ye will be voting YES!

  • Badlands AK,

    I so relate! Especially the part about the existential crisis and a nervous breakdown. I bet you carried the bike and “skated” around them. That’s what I would have tried.

  • Kathy C

    How is Mr Orlov a financial ezpert, he is an engineer?

    I’m guessing that he has been looking at Peak oil and collapse for quite some tie but how does that make him listenable about world financial matters?

    Writing that the financial markets are broken and the world has not caught on yet is fine. Many are saying this too. But it would seem to be in Mr Orlovs interests to continue to say it is broken and collapse will come, ‘run to my website’ for help.

    Many have indicated that a collapse of one ‘system’ will quickly lead to the establishment of others, perhaps better suited to local lower energy and carbon ‘borrowing’. Who knows.

    Chicken little only gets listened to for so long, and crying wolf will certainly lead to diminished interest.

    I have some respect for Mr Orlovs work over past years, so I am not bagging the guy for being involved in the debates.

    Again is he able to have a thorough grasp of world finances?

    Sir Bob has a few things to say here and makes some fine points, but get the main thing he is saying IMO – change will need to engage the political classes, and also to be practical in this effort, getting coser to the dirty business guys and political arsholes will be the only way to go. I don’t completely endorse that, but Sir Bob is throwing all he has, again, to get some action. I cheer his message that reducing poverty is a key. I’m not so sure if Sir Bob is a business as modified usual, he mentions economic growth as a given.

    ‘Jones and Geldof say business must ‘do good”

  • The Net Energy is the driving force in the Economy, the Primary Economy being the resources available. Their conversion into product and its distribution, consumption, and disposal is the Secondary Economy. Symbols purported to represent exchangeability for the resources and products (such as pieces of paper printed with green ink, bearing pictures of dead presidents, magnetised particles on hard drives, etc.) and their manipulation constitute the Tertiary (virtual – smoke & mirrors) Economy, including monetary and fiscal policy, finance, and the whole bag of tricks that are mostly referred to when the term “economy” is used. With the depleting of the energy resources that have to be used to convert the (also depleting) other resources into product, the illusion of a growing economy has to be maintained by juggling more and more of the items from the bag of tricks higher and higher. That too, has its limits.

    Net Energy and the Economy — Biophysical Economics Meeting, 2011

    (The reproduction of the slides in the post are lousy, but he provides a link to a PDF of good quality slides at the beginning.)

  • here come the water wars:

    Georgia and Tennessee have been engaged in a long-standing battle over water rights. The dispute has to do with the Tennessee River and, as Georgia claims, state boundary lines that Tennessee may or may not have claimed from its southern neighbor in order to control the river and all the drinking water it provides. Now, Georgia’s state senate has taken action and voted 48-2 to pass a resolution that would correct the state’s northern border.

  • Tom, not just Georgia and TN, Georgia and Alabama and Florida all quarrel about the mighty Chattahooche

  • @ Badlands

    Thanks. Not as bad as last autumn. I think increasing day length sets it off, have to adjust the biothythm.

    My neighbour who has 150 acres is too ill to work any more, so leaves all his gates open, and the horses that live on the mountain, which is common land where anyone with the right can graze stock, come up the lane and into his fields. So there are more than thirty there now and about six new foals. They are nice to watch. But these horses and ponies belong to lots of different people, are all different shapes and sizes and colours and interbreed and nobody wants the foals when they grow up, they have no value except for petfood. But they do have a nice life, such as it is, they all look healthy and they gallop about and if anybody wanted to catch them they’d have trouble finding them, let alone putting a halter on them, they’re all quite wild.

  • Re Savory

    I didn’t think that the large predators to control ungulates thing was controversial, I thought everybody understood all that and accepted it. I thought that the controversial part is Savory’s idea that cattle can be used to ‘restore’ desert ecosystems.

    I can see how that would be, or could be, quite dangerous, if the desert ecosystems are natural, and not land that’s already been degraded by overgrazing. It’s just another excuse to wreck nature, isn’t it ? And also, the idea of mimicing nature, basically a good idea, as in permaculture, is so EASILY corrupted, when commercial interests decide to ‘mimic’ natural forests with eucalyptus or palm oil, as a ploy to get around regulations and sell their schemes, and what other species do cattle actually mimic ?

    I don’t dare delve far into this controversy, because ecology is very complicated and I have very little specialist knowledge about the areas of the world concerned, but I’m very suspicious about all the slogans ‘Holistic this and that’ becomes jargon for marketing a scam to raise funds to push through schemes that have nothing to do with preserving biodiversity…. just gives a corporation some greenwash to hide behind. ‘Savory Approved’.

  • @ Mo Flora

    I don’t know if you’ll feel inclined to expand on this, but I wish you would :

    I am one of the very few to comment on this post who have actually used Mr Savory’s methods on a small scale. I have improved soil fertility, dramatically increasing organic material on a VERY tough site using intensive rotational grazing of sheep, goats, ducks, chickens and turkeys as part of a permaculture design. We are about to purchase a pair of oxen and will use them in the same fashion on a different site.
    Having used the methods for five years I consider them to be an essential tool in the permaculture designer’s toolkit.

    I don’t understand why this is ‘Mr Savory’s method’. Unless there’s some details that you have not included. Havn’t farmers and smallholders been doing intensive rotational grazing, crop rotation, for at least a couple of centuries ?

  • Here is a recent comment that I copied and pasted regarding Savory. It looks a little deeper at the issue:

    It would be wonderful to undo the Corn Belt, eliminate the farms and ranches and restore North America’s grasslands, western & midwestern, to their native states, with large populations of prairie dogs, herding herbivores under the influence of wolves, and many other species which have suffered because of agriculture. No livestock could ever simulate the ecosystem role bison once played. Mr. Savory understands the important role wildlife play in a healthy ecosystem, which is why he can’t possibly promote either, because ranchers & farmers would never tolerate it. HM is about increasing agricultural yields at the expense of ecosystem health. As another Green Revolution scam, it threatens to delay the impending collapse, making the collapse yet more severe. As our situation worsens, we must avoid the tendency to fixate on delusional “solutions,” of which HM is a prime example. And as things get worse, we increasingly ignore what we have missed all along, the natural world. As the world gets worse, it is us who are all that matter, nothing else. This is the mentality which got us here, and we embrace it all the more now, largely by those involved in “sustainability,” and “green technology.” We have no idea how woefully inadequate this all is. We are headed toward a massive cliff, and all we can get excited about is coming together and making friends with ranchers, clinging to a myth that cattle will save the world. The biosphere will survive only with the downfall of humanity. That we haven’t acknowledged by now our incompatibility with nature makes it all the more certain. We are not a part of nature, but its antithesis. Any nature we are part of is the nature of civilization to destroy itself and the natural world, which would’ve done quite fine without us coming on the scene. We are not at the top, and we cannot save ourselves. We care nothing for the future of life on this planet, despite all claims of stewardship. We are destroyers, and deny it.

  • DMD,

    Thanks for such an insightful comment. “Cows Will Save Us” is pretty silly when you stop and think about it. Good bumper sticker material.

    Final oral presentations for my TOK students were this weekend. One group had as their knowledge issue “To What Extent Does Our Understanding of Nature Keep Us Separate From Nature”. It was a darn good presentation for three ESL teenagers.

  • Kathy: yep. It’ll be happening more and more and between countries too. So many forces tearing at the fabric of civilization . . .

    Oh, and remember the reassuring comments about Fukushima only leaking at 1%? Well, look again (one minute audio):

  • more elephant deaths:

    Cameroon elephant slaughter latest in string of killings

    Yaounde, Cameroon (CNN) — Heavily armed poachers recently killed nearly 40 endangered forest elephants for their ivory in two national parks, officials in Cameroon said Tuesday, the latest in a string of slaughters of the animals in Central Africa.

    “The carcasses are still fresh, indicating the killings took place probably only this month,” ecologist Theophile Mbarga told CNN on Tuesday.

    Very young — even newborn — elephants were among the carcasses found in Nki and Lobeke national parks. The toll could reach 50 after a thorough search is made, Mbarga added.

    The dead elephants were found closely clustered — less than 35 feet apart — indicating the poachers used powerful, modern weapons, conservation group WWF project manager Zacharie Nzooh told journalists Tuesday.

  • Fracking:

    Largest ever man-made earthquake? Experts link 5.6 Oklahoma quake which buckled a highway and destroyed 14 homes to oil drilling

    A large earthquake, which rocked Oklahoma in 2011 and was felt across 17 states, was caused by oil-drilling, scientists said today.
    The 5.6 magnitude quake injured two people, buckled a highway, destroyed 14 properties and was felt for hundreds of miles.

    A team of scientists today ruled it was caused by deep injections of waste-water in the drilling of oil – counteracting the view of state seismologists who said it occurred naturally.
    If they are right, it is the largest man-made earthquake recorded in the U.S. and will leave many question marks over the practice of disposing of waste-water from oil production underground.

    Watch as the industry buys its way out of any blame . . .

  • Annie …voting yes!
    Absolutely not, just how do you expect the 55 million or so south of the border to survive if they don’t have “at least Dick Turpin wore a mask” type access to our resources, our relationship with London is every bit as strong as Bill and Monica’s and not dissimilar, they also helped our island enormously by invading Iraq before Saddam launched an attack against us within 45 mins by tardis, don’t you realize that? why would anyone want to stand on their own two feet when they could be spoonfed batshit in perpetuity, the garden path we’re being led up has some of the loveliest flower arrangements and monoblock design I’ve ever seen, and yet there seem to be those in our far too small to survive country who show a bewildering level of ungratefulness toward our kind benefactors. Honestly, some folk!

    Alternatively, I refer you to your answer to my original question.

  • Here is another argument against cows

  • I must admit that until this essay I had never heard of Allan Savory. However, I don’t find his suggestions all that unreasonable nor surprising. It seems pretty much on par with everything else I’m hearing from the “aware but still in denial” crowd.

    The fact is that the human race is in severe overshoot made possible entirely by fossil fuels. As with any species in overshoot, there is absolutely nothing which can be done to stop the crash. The only difference between us and bacteria in a petri dish is that we have brains big enough to convince us that if we just work really, really hard we can figure a way out of this situation such that everyone gets to keep on living just like we’ve always done.

    We can figure and bargain and cajole all we want. Physics wins every time. Sooner, rather than later, there will be billions and billions fewer people on the planet. And considering all the chemical and nuclear traps we’ve set for ourselves, it seems very likely that no humans will be left, and likely no life at all. Mr. Savory just hasn’t reached that conclusion yet – or if so, isn’t intellectually honest enough to admit it.

  • AC,

    I recently saw “You’ve Been Trumped” about the luxury golf course Trump wanted to build at Balmedie. Heartbreaking. The government was completely licking Trump’s boot. Anything for money, huh? And that beach area was supposed to be protected, uh huh. I hated to see your wonderful country treated like trash, with your own authorities’ help, by Trump, the bottom-feeder from my own unfortunate country. And I think I read he’s building another one over there. Hail, Scotland!

  • 2011 Oklahoma Temblor: Wastewater Injection Spurred Biggest Earthquake Yet, Study Says

  • Aha ! Here we have a hint of Guy’s agrarian anarchy from ancient times, great website too, lots of curious and fascinating snippets for the erudite scholar.

    In the age of Shen-nung, they were fed by the ploughing of the men and clothed by the weaving of the women. He ruled without the use of punishments or administration. He reigned without resorting to weapons and armour. When Shen-nung died, they took advantage of strength to conquer the weak, of numbers to conquer the few.

    “The Nung-chia School of the Tillers and the Origins of Peasant Utopianism in China”

  • @Tom and fracking

    Been out ‘picken cotton’ but paused for some comic relief.

    This same thing with man made earth quakes happened decades ago when I was passing through Colorado and a series of peculiar ‘earthquakes’ struck the Colorado Springs area. It turned out the the Army had deep-well injected ten of thousands of gallons of liquid nerve gas, yes that right; nerve gas, down an abandoned well in the area to ‘safely depose of it’, as they finally admitted.

    It was on some minor fault line or such that no one seemed to be aware of. Duh

    The implications of injecting a lot of any liquid deep in the ground has been known for quite some time in geological circles. The public, as always, is not smart enough or curious enough to know or care, big surprise, the Sheeple are “still crazy after all these years” I suppose.

    So the fracking=makes=earthquakes thing is not a New Theory, just the same old Dr Strangeloveian horseshit you’d expect from a dystopian psychopathic ecocidal species like Humans that thinks they are ‘the Crown of Creation’.

    Imagine for a second the bone-headed techno cornucopian clusterphuck ‘plan’ to sequester thousand (millions?) of giga-tons of liquified CO2 from the atmosphere and ‘inject it’ deep into good old Mother Earth like she was some kind of crack whore needing a ‘fix’?

    Anyone familiar with brake lines on a car or truck knows the power of mechanical hydraulic leverage. A single human can stop a ten ton truck with their foot.

    Scale that sick puppy of CO2 sequestration up to global proportions and now you have man-made seismic activity (MMSA), a new coined term!

    I would not be surprised if the MIC maniacs long ago investigated using ‘seimic warfare’ to purposely cause earthquakes as a ‘weapons system’ Nothing is Sacred in their book. It’s All Good, cause we humans are suppose to ‘dominate’ the Earth.

    Maybe that’s Dominatrix the Earth.

    Damn, we’re good.

  • AC, I take that as a ‘probably’ ;-)

  • To get Cows with guns out of my head and for our Scottish brothers and sisters, I offer the Proclaimers.

  • Here’s a learned Doug Stanhope lecture from a few years ago about saving our planet:

    [If you are easily offended, do not watch.]

    Abortion Is Green

  • ‘Micha’, Yeah, wasn’t Jack McConnell (Blair’s neoliberal lackey)a pure swine of a man for allowing the bewigged one into our beautiful Caledonia. And isn’t the MSM a pure bitch for not mentioning that fact? Won’t be long now before his arse is shown the door! If we’re gonnae go down, we’ll go down fightin’! Hail Scotia, Hail Salmond, Hail the SNP ;-)

  • Scottish Government Approves Windfarm Opposed by Donald Trump

    Billionaire property magnate attacks decision to build experimental offshore windfarm near his golf course as ‘purely political’

  • @ Speak Softly

    The public, as always, is not smart enough or curious enough to know or care…

    Seems to me, there’s a percentage of the population who are so totally reckless and insane, they should never be allowed freedom to do anything, but instead of shackling them in cells, or better, drowning them in concrete, the public vote them into power, where they give jobs to more nutters just like themselves….

    Minutes of secret meetings released under freedom-of-information law reveal the MoD was worried about breaching an inter-government agreement on marine pollution by firing depleted uranium (DU) tank rounds into the sea from a military range at Dundrennan near Kirkcudbright.
    But officials found a way round the problem, by claiming the munitions were not being “dumped” in the sea, but “placed” there.

  • Whoa Annie, despite my support for SNP (windfarms and the Murdoch debacle notwithstanding) I wasn’t aware it was Mconnells doing re. the trump situ.
    Wasn’t Salmond himself the architect of the whole trump mess?
    My take is they (SNP @ holyrood level) called in the local decision (by the libs) to refuse the development and reversed it. Enlighten me.

  • Hey, it’s Mankind’s God Complex on display today over at Collapse of Industrial Civilization

    Resolve to Evolve

  • RE: Scottish government and Trump

    The last quote of the Guardian article made me gag. “Well done to the Scottish government for standing up to Donald Trump’s threats and bluster.” Yeah, they conveniently see the light AFTER pocketing Trump’s bribe money for allowing the resort to be built. The losers, as usual, are the locals who loved the land and Mother Nature.

  • The REAL Dr. House says: Mr. Savory just hasn’t reached that conclusion yet – or if so, isn’t intellectually honest enough to admit it.


    Most people don’t get doom’s rumor,
    But they will (and not with good humor);
    Since so many people
    Don’t like the word “sheeple,”
    Perhaps we should call them “pre-doomer.”

  • AC, just pointing out that it was dear ol’ Jack who opened the door to him in the first place, which, in my opinion, should have been kept firmly barricaded! Wee Eck is no fool, he knows he screwed up and that the majority of Scots can’t stand the Trump. Which is why he’s all but told him to eff off re the windfarms (I know, I know – more controversy ;-))

    Anyway, if Scotland does vote YES, I’ll be hoping for a Green Holyrood :-)

  • Thank you Wildwomen, you made me smile :-)

    I’m still at the betwixt and between stage of hopium, which isn’t very nice… but ‘hopefully’ I’ll get there one day!

  • “The last quote of the Guardian article made me gag”

    Good grief! I hope you’re alright!

  • thanks also, soraize, for the link to the charles bukowski short vid. great man/poet/writer. i just watched a very engaging, and at the end, touching, doc. about his life. some of u may enjoy it as well:

    incredible how popular this blog has become this past year. impossible to keep up with all the comments anymore.

  • Minutes of secret meetings released under freedom-of-information law reveal the MoD was worried about breaching an inter-government agreement on marine pollution by firing depleted uranium (DU) tank rounds into the sea from a military range at Dundrennan near Kirkcudbright.
    But officials found a way round the problem, by claiming the munitions were not being “dumped” in the sea, but “placed” there.

    Yep, just one more reason for Scotland to ‘dump’ the Westminster run MoD… and they can take Trident with ’em!

  • Someone up thread mentioned Dmitry Orlov.

    His new post has an interesting take on Cyprus, Bangs and Whimpers, and their failed banks..

    All global banks collapsed in 2008.

    It’s just that Cyprus will not be ‘infused’ with ‘cash’ any longer. It finally ‘hit the ground’.

    But their fate is the fate of ALL banks, it just that it is one of the first shoes to drop.

    The ‘Owners’ have just been propping up the Corpse of Finance and giving it blood transfusions for the last 4 years or so.

    It’s Zombieland folks.

    Banks are face eating Zombies

    Every country thinks their banks are ‘special’.


    The most ‘powerful’ countries will go bankrupt last, the little ones are the warm up act.

  • @ annie

    Westminster run MoD

    May not be that simple, the nuclear stuff means NATO, means USA and Israel, CIA, Mossad, MI6, big American corporations, you think they let Scotland interfere with their dirty schemes ?

    But this nuclear crap isn’t interested in national borders, is it. If a French nuclear plant did a Fuke, it could easily make England or much of any other neighbouring country uninhabitable. Lies and deceit and dirty tricks have been part of the nuclear business ever since it began, nothing has changed. They seem incapable of learning anything.

    I understand from nuclear expert sources that what the BBC wrote off as ‘extreme weather conditions’ at the UK’s Sellafield plant may well have been rather more.

  • @badlandsAK

    Your frog story was very touching and it helps me knowing there are many others that care so deeply for the living things on this earth.  Thanks for sharing!

    I hear you about the asthma and allergies!  I live in Idaho and the CO2 increase is creating havoc for the air quality here.   We’ve had record high pollen counts over the last few years and then last Fall we had two months of yellow and red air quality days due to the forest fires.  September being one of my favorite months here is likely to be the worst month with high summer heats starting fires sooner.  We’ve already seen fires and it’s only freaking March!   Waking up each morning to the haze and not being able to sleep with windows open or play outside is the reality we are facing.  People complained about it as if they were innocent bystanders and I felt like going on a venting spree! (I’m sure I did to a few people.)   sigh….  Reminds me of a poem by Drew Dellinger

    ….what did you do while the planet was plundered?
    what did you do when the earth was unraveling?

    surely you did something
    when the seasons started failing?
    as the mammals, reptiles, birds were all dying?
    did you fill the streets with protest…

    EPA acknowledges increase in allergens and asthma due to CO2 increases.  huffPost had a similar story this week.

  • Yes, I know ulvfugl – I’m really not that naive. I know they’ll try every trick in the Black Ops book to prevent Scotland from gaining independence and the neoliberal MSM will lie through their teeth to keep the status quo. The latest Tory government threat is that if an independent Scotland gets nuked, England won’t retaliate on her behalf??? The Scots nation and public bodies have for decades wanted Trident removed. What are they going to do if we do vote YES and a democratically elected Scottish government tells them to remove it? Nuke us?

  • @ annie

    What are they going to do if…

    They’ll do what they usually do, what they’ve been doing for the last half century and more. They’ll make a list of all the prominent capable people who they know they can’t buy off or corrupt, the one’s who are 100% loyal and committed to Scottish independence. They’ll zoom in on their private and personal affairs, identify any weaknesses or skeletons in cupboards, anything that could ruin a career, major embarrassments, anything that could use up years of life in court cases, waste a person’s life savings, whatever. Anything that removes their ability it be an effective opponent. If nothing seems available, then they have a car crash or a ski-ing accident or a heart attack in their bath. And then they get replaced by paedophiles, who are permitted to indulge their preference just so long as they do what their handlers tell them.
    As for ‘democratically elected’…have you not noticed, almost every democratically elected government in my lifetime, has never done what it promised the electorate it was going to do ? The main reason is usually, the money. The bankers control the money, therefore they control the politicians. Unless Scotland had it’s own currency, it’s not free, it still has to do what the British Treasury and Bank of England says.

    Unless it joined the Euro. And look what happened to Cyprus, Ireland, Greece.

    This is the trouble with all left wing political thought since Marx. They never understood money. If an independent Scotland was causing ‘trouble’, what happens ? The bankers can crash the economy. No credit, no jobs, no trade, riots, a new election, and a new party, to suit the bankers. Works every time. Only exception, so far, has been Iceland, sort of.

  • Well, we’ll see, Ulvfugl :-) I’d rather chance it than remain with Neoliberal Westminster! Let’s hope the majority of Scots do too… The Scandinavians seem to manage quite well, something for us Scots to aspire to!


    Biological Hazard in Canada on Tuesday, 26 March, 2013 at 04:09 (04:09 AM) UTC.
    Hundreds of dead fish floating belly up lined the shore near the Weightman Bridge in Chippawa. The problem isn’t only in Chippawa. People have been reporting dead or dying fish along the shoreline in Fort Erie and as far south as Pennsylvania for weeks. Thousands were seen listlessly floating or struggling to swim on their side downstream in the Niagara River Monday. According to the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resource, the fish are known as gizzard shad and the “die off” is normal for this time of year. Lake Erie is the northern-most extent of the gizzard shad’s range, said ministry spokeswoman Jolanta Kowalski. When temperatures drop they become physiologically stressed and many die. “They die in the winter due to cold stress and when the ice melts they show up on shore,” she said. She said the massive winter mortality rate is pretty common as the fish is a warm water species. Yet, it’s not uncommon to have similar instances happen throughout the summer with temperature fluctuations.

    Notice the “official” people continue to pooh-pooh these die-offs as “common” or “normal” when it hasn’t happened (in this case to the extent of this year) previously. This is the first time i’ve ever heard of fish dying of “cold stress.”

    Keep moving, nothing to see here – go shopping.

  • The final breakdown of every tax dollar spent by the United States to rebuild post-invasion Iraq was presented to Congress earlier this month – a down-to-the-nickel analysis of nine years and $60bn worth of waste, arrogance and ineptitude unequalled in American history.

  • @ Speak Softly

    I have not read D. Orlov’s article, I’ve tended to take him less seriously of late, since his visit to St. Petersburg, when his alter ego appeared briefly, but from what you say

    But their fate is the fate of ALL banks..

    This is certainly not the case. So long as the War on Drugs continues, so that profit margins remain high, and so long as the arms trade continues, so that there’s cash to be made from missiles and cluster bombs and similar crap, so long as the oil and gas keeps flowing, CERTAIN banks do not need to fear any such fate. In fact, we know which banks those are. Twenty eight of them. They are the masters of the world, our supreme rulers. They have nothing to fear, because no country has the power to control them. Here’s the link.

  • ulv: When all that paper becomes worthless except for kindling or maybe insulation from the cold, ie. when there isn’t any food to buy because nothing is growing, we’ll see how much power they have; or when their tangled weave of debt and bad bets comes home to roost there won’t be enough money in the world to cover it all either – they’re actually all insolvent as of right now but continue to play “extend and pretend” to keep things going as long as possible.

    Kunstler says it pretty well:

  • @Carmen

    You had terrible fires last summer! I know, because even though we had several smaller ones in SD, we got a LOT of smoke from Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, even Washington. One day we had orange skies and huge particulate matter.
    Air Quality alerts seem to be the norm here with all of the wind, but there are many times when it is obvious the standards aren’t set for the benefit of the most vulnerable, and many days when there aren’t alerts, we can’t go outside anyway. I can always smell when there is smoke from wildfires, and can also tell from the quality of the light.
    Before I left Alaska over 6 million acres burned one summer, and that was around the same time I developed asthma at the age of 30. Wildfire smoke is very dangerous because the microfine particles can not be expelled from the lungs, accumulating and eventually turning into asthma once the threshold is reached.
    I was reading about one of the fires in Montana last summer and was horrified to see a commenter talking about coughing up blood! That is NOT normal I wanted to scream at him-go see a doctor now!
    I am used to cabin fever growing up in long Alaskan winters, but we were rarely cooped up indoors for such long stretches of time. Cabin fever during summer heat, wind, and pollution is infinitely worse, especially for kids. We also can’t do things like hang clothes out on the line, because of pollen, even when it is 90 F with 40 mph wind and those clothes would be dry in 5 minutes.
    I want to say, or maybe I’m conditioned to say, I hope things are better for you this summer, but I know those are empty words any more. I will send good thoughts to Idaho!

  • @ Tom

    Kunstler says much the same thing, every week, every year. Nice fiery words, but same old.

    Look, HSBC, Hong Kong and Shang Hai, that started with the opium trade into China 150 years ago, they’ve survived the world wars and depressions, they know what happens to paper money, they know more about debt and assets and all that stuff, than anyone else on the planet. Do you think they are more stupid, or less smart, than the people here ? Stupid they are not. They protect themselves in all kinds of ways. They can buy the smartest guys and the best systems available. They own stuff. They don’t care about the money. They just told the US Gvt to fuck off. It’s a mistake to under estimate people with that kind of power, imo.

  • Ya know – it’s bad enough diseases come along that are terrible and we look to science to help. What the %^)# is THIS about:

    H5N1 viral-engineering dangers will not go away

    Governments, funders and regulatory authorities must urgently address the risks posed by gain-of-function research, says Simon Wain-Hobson

    Barely two months after a small group of influenza virologists lifted a moratorium on work to make the H5N1 avian flu virus as transmissible between humans as seasonal flu, researchers are at it again. Earlier this month, a Dutch scientist proposed similar experiments with other avian flu viruses, as well as the SARS coronavirus. And a fortnight ago, scientists in Germany and Switzerland reported how they had tweaked canine distemper virus to make it grow in human cells.

    The logic behind these kinds of experiments, collectively called gain-of-function (GOF) research, is to identify combinations of mutations that could allow an animal virus to jump to unprepared humans. By knowing the mutations, the thinking goes, we can better prepare and marshal our scientific defences against a possible threat.

    Related stories
    •Work resumes on lethal flu strains
    •H5N1 virus: Transmission studies resume for avian flu
    •Vigilance needed
    GOF research on avian flu provoked heated controversy, much of it covered by this journal. That controversy did not go away with the lifting of the moratorium. On the contrary, it continues to fester. Officials in Washington DC are putting the finishing touches to new guidelines for the review, regulation and oversight of this kind of research. The chill winds that we can anticipate blowing from policy-makers as a result could affect all of us who research viruses and their pathology. To avoid this, researchers in this field need to learn lessons from the past.

    Rather than use the avian flu moratorium to seek advice, listen and foster debate, many influenza scientists engaged in an academic exercise of self-justification. There was a single large open meeting, at the Royal Society in London, which engaged a wider audience, including bioethicists. The recent calling off of the moratorium by 40 flu researchers alone — not funders, governments or international bodies — says it all. The flu community simply hasn’t understood that this is a hot-button issue that will not go away.

    (way down toward the end)

    The global ramifications of GOF research have simply not been sufficiently explored and discussed. Influenza virologists are going down a blind alley and the powers that be are blindly letting them go down that alley, which is tantamount to acquiescing. So let’s be clear: the end game could be viruses more dangerous than the Spanish flu strain.


  • Think this is possibly what you were meaning to say, re the bankers, Tom ;-)

    When it all falls apart and we are pushed back down into local communities it will be the guy who can repair a bicycle or grow tomatoes, or distill ethyl alcohol from corn or woodchips, or pipe methane from the town dump, or run a black market in pantyhose who will be the local bigshot, warlord, or philanthropist.

  • I wonder when David Icke’s followers will try digging up a reptilian/human hybrid. We almost went to this sold-out lecture at Wembley (12,500-seat capacity) to be contrary and also because my husband has a wicked sense of humor, but we couldn’t throw away money like that.

    This is a short analysis of a lot of strangeness. Spoiler alert: love is the answer, i.e., humanity is totally lost.

    Remember Who You Are

  • @ annie

    Well, we’ll see…

    People find it hard to believe, indeed, it is hard to believe, that so many people are into paedophilia, but the covert agencies have known this for a long time. When homosexuality was illegal, that was the perfect means to blackmail all those posh privileged public school boys with jobs in government to do a bit of spying, but when the laws were relaxed, paedophiles were used. Here’s a list of names from the labour party. Presumably, they disobeyed orders so were outed to the press. Every investigation into organised paedophilia in UK has been blocked by the most senior politicians and MI5. We know why. This extends all the way across Europe, and back to USA and the CIA, and has been going on for decades. Nobody has the power to blow it apart, because the people who use it as a tool, control the pretty much everything else too. Bastards.

  • @ Pym

    I’m not a fan of David Icke, other than that he defies the establishment. But he has been correct about some things that nobody else, anywhere, was willing to even discuss, like Sir Jimmy Saville and paedophilia at the BBC, so I think he deserves some credit for that.

    There was a huge online investigation of the credit cards being used to access child porn sites. Many of the names attached to the credit cards belonged to some of the most senior and ‘respectable’ members of British soceity. Afaik, NONE of them have been named, shamed, prosecuted. Many names are well known, but are too powerful to touch.

  • @BadlandsAK

    Ah, I remember those summer breezes in SD. I spent my summers at my grandparents and would help my grandma hang laundry outside. Thanks for the kind words and we can hope for some good days and take advantage of them.


    “Barely two months after a small group of influenza virologists lifted a moratorium on work to make the H5N1 avian flu virus as transmissible between humans as seasonal flu, researchers are at it again.”

    Reminds me of the zombie movie, 28 Days Later. There were stern warnings issued by the WHO in 2011 regarding the risks of experimenting on virus mutation. Looks like that lasted all of a year.

  • The link on the Neanderthal ‘hybrid’ reinforces my gut thoughts on the culture clash between h s sapian and Neanderthals.

    From the article:

    “..Modern humans and Neanderthals therefore lived in roughly the same regions for thousands of years, but the new human arrivals, from the Neanderthal perspective, might not have been welcome, and for good reason. The research team hints that the modern humans may have raped female Neanderthals, bringing to mind modern cases of “ethnic cleansing….”

    Lots of people point out the cool parts of early h s sapians like the Cave of Forgotten Dreams and forget that the origins of Racism started with them also.

    And the ancient racism of h s sapians must have been even more virulent because it was actually aimed at a different species of hominid, not just a variation of h s sapians, like the modern forms of racism.

    Take your pick of modern racist groups and imagine if they were pointing to an actual different hominid species and then stating publicly that ‘they’ were not even biologically ‘human’ in the modern sense.

    This whole subject of previous hominid species and how sucessful, or not, they were has one fact at it’s core. All the other hominid species are DEAD.

    That’s the fact.

    They were losers.

    H s sapian is the last hominid standing on the Late Great Planet Earth and we can see how that has worked out.

    Forget the cave paintings, a total aberration in core values.

    It’s Monkeys with Guns all the way to the Bank

  • thanks robin d. for the belly laugh! for this:

  • @the virgin terry

    Interesting act that Tim Minchin

    “…In his beat poem, Storm, which centers on Minchin having an argument with a “hippie” who believes in various New Age alternatives in lieu of pharmaceutical medicine, he states:

    “Science adjusts its views based on what’s observed.

    Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved.”

  • Dear Friends:

    Is there anyone out there who can help this computer novice with youtube settings? For some reason, the comments that are normally found below videos that are being watched as well as suggested videos on the right side of the page do not appear. I assume this has something to do with the settings, but after searching I could not find the solution. I would be grateful for any suggestions. Thank you.

  • ulvfugl

    You wrote of Dimitry Orlov:

    “I’ve tended to take him less seriously of late, since his visit to St. Petersburg, when his alter ego appeared briefly…”

    Can you fill us in on what this means?

  • Well,

    with the hint of that internet slowing down malware hitting lots of users…. I just want to say it has been an honour and a privelage to read and post alongside all here. We may not get a chance to meet, or communicate much longer, so I wanted to take this opportunity to acknowledge my gratitude, to Guy especially, and all others.

    Best wishes to all, and I bet most will try to survive when it comes down to it. (Last words)

    I am not suggesting things will get so bad the intrnet will fall silent, not yet. But just in case, I wanted the sentiments to go out now.

    OzMan says a big ‘Thanks’ to all.

  • Is there anyone out there who can help this computer novice with youtube settings?

    If you are using IOS 6.x (iPhone, iPad or iPad mini, download the YouTube app from the Apple apps store. IOS will automatically link the YouTube videos to the app, and depending on the URL format/settings, will either play it embedded in Safari or will open it in YouTube. Also in cases where an embedded video displays the YouTube title, clicking on that title will open the video in the YouTube app.

    In some cases in which the video does not play, try copying the URL and pasting it into the native Apple Notes app. Look for the identifying YouTube serial number, such as d8QgyLQaV-k (if it is followed by something else, the first character of that something else is either “?”, “=”or “&”). Copy that identifying number, paste it separately and preface it as follows:

    Click “Done” in the upper right-hand corner of Notes. Then click on the new URL and more often than not, it will open and play just fine in the YouTube app. Some videos, such as those in *.flv and *.avi formats will not play on the IOS, regardless.

    Thanks to Hurley, Chen and Karim for YouTube, Brin and Page for Google and to Jobs and Wozniak for Apple!

    I haven’t booted up my Windows tower (dual quad-core i7 processors with Windows 7 Service Pack 1 in a few months now and am getting rather rusty with Windows. Thanks nevertheless to Allen and Gates also!

  • The research team hints that the modern humans may have raped female Neanderthals, bringing to mind modern cases of “ethnic cleansing….”

    Until the rather recent sequencing of the entire Neanderthal genome, speculation about the Neanderthals was based on mitochondrial DNA, and from what was known, it was stated that there was no mixing of the genes. Since the mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively matrilineally, it means that no modern human females came from the Neanderthal lineage. With the complete sequencing of the Neanderthal genome, it has been established that there has been some transfer of Neanderthal DNA to us. Since no Neanderthal females continued into the human lineage, it would be Neanderthal males who “gifted” our females with their DNA.

  • With technologies becoming cheaper and more accessible, Do-It-Yourself Genetic Engineering and Biohacking are moving closer to general availability to individuals and small groups. Giant laboratories to engineer more deadly anthrax, and to create a smallpox-Ebola hybrid, as was done in the former Soviet Union, will no longer be necessary. A small group of “activists” supporting a person with a biosciences PhD in a basement lab could come up with a doomsday virus, unnoticed by the rest of the world until too late. All of this presumes that the climate will not take care of us first.

    Only 3% or less of the human genome is uniquely human; the rest we hold in common with chimpanzees. Of that 3%, about 1% to 4% is in common with Neanderthals. But crossbreeding transfers 50%. That 50% has to be diluted down over generations. However, the first generation will necessarily be a 50-50 hybrid.

  • Speak Softly Says:

    This whole subject of previous hominid species and how successful, or not, they were has one fact at it’s core. All the other hominid species are DEAD.

    That’s the fact.

    They were losers.

    Are you sure about that? I’m not. Neanderthals existed for at least 250,000 years. We been around about 200,000 years or less. What wouldn’t we give to have those extra 50,000 years that that so called ‘loser’ species got? It’s doubtful we have 50,000 days left, and more likely far less than that. And when you consider that our species is killing itself, and knows it, and does nothing to stop it, I’d say that’s one big dumb loser of a species — the all-time world champion loser.

  • @ Ozman

    Re D. O. Suggest you go back through his older posts, it wasn’t that long ago he visited St. P. Form your own impression, rather than my jaded and cynical view. I’m not particularly knocking the guy, I respect him, he’s very smart, great writer, independent thinker, but having a kid, buying a bigger yacht, going on a book signing tour, raving about the pleasures of city life, etc, bit too much cognitive dissonance for me.
    Same goes for R. Prieur, ten years of heavy doom-mongering, and suddenly changes his tune. perhaps it’s middle age crisis or something, or burn out, but his posts just seem boring self-indulgence, ‘100 things you want to know about me’. Yawn. Sorry, Ran, but I don’t think that’s what ‘it’s’ about.

  • I mentioned Joseph Campbell in the previous thread. Here’s a footnote, if anyone’s interested.

    Strangely enough, Joseph Campbell, that American icon of folklore and mythology, is the lone scholar who has embraced Leland’s hypothesis of a Norse-Algonquin kinship. Parkhill noted, “Sadly, Campbell depends on Leland to be an authority when scholars unanimously agree he is not; and he relies on a story, the centerpiece of Leland’s work, that Leland had forged to his own specifications.” While we may justify Campbell’s oversight to simply not checking Leland’s sources this does cast a pall over Campbell’s stature among scholars.

  • ulvfugl

    So no documented ‘alter ego’ of D.O., just he might have been connecting to some ‘contacts’ there?

    Just thought there might have been some info, but I hear where you are comig from.


  • @ Ozman

    Alter ego defined as ‘the different behaviours any person may display in certain situations.’

    You know, like if Guy was suddenly telling us about whooping it up at rave parties in New York, and how cool it was to be riding in the latest model Porsche ;-)
    I mean, we all know that’s what he really does, but at least he keeps it secret… ;-)

  • Neanderthals existed for at least 250,000 years.

    A common figure has been that they lasted 400,000 years.

    Per Wikipedia:
    Comparison of the DNA of Neanderthals and homo sapiens suggests that they diverged from a common ancestor between 350,000 and 400,000 years ago.

    When the Neanderthals went extinct is disputed. Fossils found in the Vindija Cave in Croatia have been dated to between 33,000 and 32,000 years old, and Neanderthal artefacts from Gorham’s Cave in Gibraltar are believed to be less than 30,000 years ago, but a recent study has re-dated fossils at two Spanish sites as 45,000 years old, 10,000 years older than previously thought, and may cast doubt on recent dates at other sites.

    350,000 – 45,000 = 310,000, which is still a lot more than the current 200,000(or less) for Homo sapiens sapiens.

  • @ Ozman

    Just to be clear. ( There’s often so much confusion and misunderstanding on here.)
    I never suggested anything about ‘contacts’, I have no idea where you get that idea or what you mean, just an inconsistency, cognitive dissonance. And for the humour impaired, my suggestion about Guy was meant to be funny. I’m only on here because I respect his integrity, he walks his talk more than most.

  • The Neanderthal in us video, 2011 Max Planck Inst 7:36 min

    What if it’s the opposite of Softly’s thesis, we’re so horrible, because of the N. influence ?

  • Hi Robin,

    Thanks for being so thoughtful. i really appreciate your assistance.

    Just one problem with the download, I have an iMac 10.5.8.

    Any thoughts under this scenario?

  • “People find it hard to believe, indeed, it is hard to believe, that so many people are into paedophilia, but the covert agencies have known this for a long time. When homosexuality was illegal, that was the perfect means to blackmail all those posh privileged public school boys with jobs in government to do a bit of spying, but when the laws were relaxed, paedophiles were used. Here’s a list of names from the labour party. Presumably, they disobeyed orders so were outed to the press. Every investigation into organised paedophilia in UK has been blocked by the most senior politicians and MI5. We know why. This extends all the way across Europe, and back to USA and the CIA, and has been going on for decades. Nobody has the power to blow it apart, because the people who use it as a tool, control the pretty much everything else too. Bastards.”

    Bummer, man! At least that’s ONE threat Neoliberal Westminster and the MSM won’t be chucking at us!!! Thanks for that, ulvfugl ;-)

  • @ annie

    But of course they will ! The people who they find, who they have evidence are paedophiles, who don’t get prosecuted, get told ‘We’ll do you a favour, overlook your little hobby, we understand, but in return we’ll expect you to do us a favour, ok ? ‘ And the guy will be so relieved, he’ll agree, because he knows that, otherwise, his career is ruined, he’ll probably lose all his family and friends, go to prison, where he’ll be at the bottom of the pecking order, likely get assaulted, mutilated, even killed. So, when the time comes, if he’s a judge, he gets a phone call telling him what decision he has to make, or if he’s a politician, how he’s supposed to vote, and so on. And once these controlled individuals are proven reliable, they get promoted into ever more powerful positions. This has been going on for a very long time ! The public never gets to know anything about it.

  • Every species that existed was a winner until it became a loser.

    Talking about winning and losing makes no sense. The factor that brings a species to extinction is a change in their environment (sometimes caused by the species itself). Imagine a game of football where you suddenly change the rules but the players are unable to change their strategy. Then winners become losers, but it doesn’t reflect on the players so much as the rules. Thus when an asteroid hit dinosaurs became losers and mammals winners through no change on their part.

    We are all losers living creatures born mortal with strong programs to avoid death. so we “rage, rage against the dying of the light” and nothing comes of it.

  • Oh hey, guess what? Most of our rivers are in bad shape. Yeah, i know, big surprise:

    It’s worst in the east where ~63% of rivers and streams are in poor condition for aquatic life; next is the plains where it’s 58% and in the west it’s 30%. The national average they rate at ~55% poor condition.

    With the Mississippi and the Colorado drying up from the drought and overuse it isn’t much of a stretch to predict big problems in the near future.

  • @ Friedrich K.

    Have you tried restart ?