The irreconcilable acceptance of near-term extinction

by Daniel A. Drumright, a lifelong radical environmentalist who has followed climate science for the last 24 years, and has been a feral “collapse theorist” for the last 12 years

Considering this very long essay attempts to address what is without a doubt, the greatest phenomenal event in the recorded history of our species, I will definitely fall quite short in the endeavor. And this would still be true even if this essay were a hundred times in length.

This essay is written in acceptance that humanity has now crossed numerous irreversible climatic thresholds. It is also written from the perspective that by so doing, we have ushered in intractable near term extinction (NTE) of most of life within the next several decades. (If nature fails to bat last, nuclear containment pool fallout from grid collapse surely will.)

I have absolutely no interest in attempting to persuade anyone of this conjecture being either true or false. No one should allow themselves to be persuaded by anyone regarding this subject matter. The decision to accept this, is ours and ours alone. Anyone who is putting the onus of NTE on Guy’s shoulders, or anyone else for that matter, is doing a great disservice to both Guy and themselves. The available evidence is easily accessible, the writing on the wall doesn’t need to be deciphered. The theory of runaway climate change has been around for decades, and now the whole world is able to watch this catastrophe unfold in real-time. But this by no means implies the world is watching.

This essay is SOLELY written for those who are already familiar with a majority of the available evidence, and who’ve subsequently come to a similar conclusion for themselves. As such, this essay is not intended to be informative, but rather entirely commiserative.

I am of the opinion that all dialog post-acceptance of NTE is manifestly commiserative. Post-acceptance of NTE, as opposed to our pre-vacillating acceptance, logically equates to defeatism, plain and simple. This is a critical distinction, and probably represents a primary schism within this new body of awareness. The post aspect of acceptance could be consider THE critical distinction, for it’s the difference between the sublimation of having come to terms with what we consider to be inevitable, compared to our wavering refutation of such inevitability, which still affords us a great many fantasies. It’s the acceptance of the inevitability of NTE which lays waste to all else, which is why this is a key factor in determining how we live our lives from here on out.

What is the meaning of NTE? Literally, we all know what those three words connote when strung together. But we don’t live in a literal reality, we live in a wholly subjective interpretive culture, where the red pill literalism of something like NTE rarely sees the light of day. This disparity obviously has a massive influence on our bias as to how we interpret everything, including the science contributing to our understanding of the significance of tipping points.

I suspect most criticism of this essay will come from those who have yet to fully accept NTE … and rightly so! But please be mindful, the following is written from a post-acceptance perspective. If this is a judgment you do not share, then the commiserative intent within this essay will simply elude you.

As of right now, the entire concept of NTE is still the most profound abstract concept the human race has ever been confronted with. Even though the signs are everywhere one decides to look, the totality of its cumulative impact is still enough off in the distance for entrenched self-preservation to render it an abstraction in our daily lives. So again, the following is written from the viewpoint as to when this is no longer true, when NTE breaks through abstraction, and detonates in full acceptance of the most profoundly devastating reality we’ve ever had to both live with and through.

(Disclaimer: I no more want to be writing this, than you probably want to be reading it, however, as curious disciples of ferocious truth, here we are … where none of us ever expected or wanted to be.)

*

I may be wrong about this, and as with almost everything concerning NTE, I very much wish I am, but as far as I’m able to discern, the comment threads on Nature Bats Last (NBL) might be the only place within the English language that are rationally and emphatically discussing the near term extinction of most of life on earth — at least in the public domain. What a dubious and overwhelming prospect that truly is, if it is in fact the case, or for that matter anywhere close to it.

It is not surprising that Guy’s blog, which has for years been dedicated to collapse preparedness, would eventually serve as the springboard into the deep end of the recognition of NTE, given we’ve already done our share of quantifying the minutia of contributing factors to the collapse of industrial civilization.

However, NTE is a classic example of emergence, where something becomes greater than the sum of its parts. It has now become an event unto itself, irrespective of its causation. I believe this is just one of the many aspects that makes this new reality difficult for us to fully comprehend, because our past precedence is, and has been, completely focused on the individual linear contributing factors, which have now compounded in creating this emergent nonlinear post threshold paradigm. The amalgam of discoveries leading up to this moment in time, are now effectively immaterial, which is the actual consequence of tipping points.

Hence, it’s not the potential of extinction that is foreign to us, but rather the “acceptance” of the near term timing of it. In my opinion, it is our highly subjective and indeterminate acceptance of NTE, which again, is the crucial distinction of how we frame our responsiveness to the ominous implications.

This dire acquiescence has now effectively catapulted “us” even further out unto the barren wastelands of the radical fringe. But for many, this has been our masochistic stomping grounds for quite some time, whereby we are most likely the first embattled assemblage of like minds in the history of our species to seriously attempt to elucidate the meaning of life amidst the ever-increasing probability of our pending disappearance.

If this is indeed so, it only stands to reason that we are as well, the first to propose what might be considered the greatest conundrum in history: How do we live out the rest of our lives in light of such acceptance? Especially, when it undermines every aspect of our future-oriented culture, as well as our private life.

While many of us here have written extensively in attempting to accurately describe the sheer scale of the dilemma we’re facing, the staggering severity of the circumstances before us has made this nearly impossible for us to accurately surmise. Its inference is so emotionally ruinous, with the precise timing being impossible to predict — thus making it highly suspect — our sense of uncertainty can’t help but override our better judgment, in demanding a degree of assurance that we rationally know doesn’t exist.

However, we’re all too aware that the evidence is quite explicit in detailing that the Holocene is exponentially drawing to a close. The geological epoch which has housed the entire history of civilization … is ending, if it hasn’t ended already. We are literally looking at losing the entire arctic ice cover — one of our planet’s primary thermal regulators — during the melting season, within only a few years … if not this year!

We could write similar words to those above a thousand times, and still be suspended in utter disbelief, for we are attempting to detail an event that is so remarkably outside any form of past human awareness, it’s either just a passing idea that flies through our minds like a frightened bird, or it levels everything like a daisy cutter. There is no in-between, it’s either a fleeting thought or it’s absolutely devastating.

Every single story we’ve ever been told, in effect, just careened into the underworld. Everyone’s Rube Goldberg collapse preparedness scheme, just theoretically failed right out of the gate. What part of our lives didn’t just suffer a massive body blow from which we will honestly never recover?

Nonetheless, our desire for doubt still rages against the evidence. Our past moral imperatives still rile against corporatism’s fait accompli in spite of ourselves. But it’s not as if we’re fabricating either the facts or the science. It’s not as if we’ve unknowingly cloistered ourselves in solipsistic groupthink. It’s not as if we’re not all desperate to have someone/something prove us wrong. I mean who in the hell wants to be right about near term extinction!?! It’s just that the degree of acceptance, which we are being forced to bear, completely undermines the very act of acceptance itself. If this isn’t the greatest cause of universal cognitive dissonance, then I don’t know what could be.

The less-than-subtle shift in our thinking on a subject we’ve all thought very long on, has had an enormous — albeit understated — side effect on our past “ecological moral imperatives.” Deliberating on the inevitability of collapse, has for many of us, strangely been the force that has given us meaning in life over the last decade(s). But now having to accept that the rates of climatic change have greatly superseded even the most dire predictions of only a few years ago has effectively dissolved the impetus of our past imperatives, mutated all sense of urgency and completely redefined the very concept of time itself.

*

It’s a self-determined path that leads one to the comprehension that our culture is addicted to hopium. It’s a path that also continues to lead us far from almost everything in our culture. But it’s quite a different course to attempt to live outside the garden of anticipation, where hopium has flowered for all of our lives.

As with most addictions, it’s seldom the drug itself that’s the cause of our dependence, but rather any number of undisclosed societal factors that drove us to it in the first place. This is what makes kicking the habit incredibly difficult, for once our system is “clean,” all the reasons for having been under the influence to begin with come rushing back with a vengeance.

Kicking the drug is the comparatively easy part, kicking the habit of dependence is far more challenging. And the same is to be said about hopium. Knowing our culture is addicted is one thing, living without it, just might prove to be impossible … even for a motley crew of cynics such as ourselves.

Curiosity could easily be considered one of our species’ greatest traits, but in many ways, acceptance of NTE with its relentless correlation to every aspect of our lives could be considered anathema to the very driving force behind our desire to be informed. And it is this unfolding psychological dilemma that I believe is quite new to many of us, for how could it not be?

Sometimes even the slightest hope can be enough to sustain us, but once even the dimmest light has been statistically snuffed out, we suddenly find ourselves in an exceptional kind of darkness, unlike anything even us denizens have ever experienced. NTE is the antithesis of Plato’s cave. It’s as if we stumbled out of the shadows, only to blindly stare directly into the sun. I wonder how long it will take for the long-term consequences of such overwhelming contrarian awareness to eventually take its pound of flesh?

Therein lies another unbelievable fact, that “we” here, at the dawn of the greatest transgressive discovery ever made, might represent the first generation in the history of our species who have ever attempted to reconcile such irreconcilable academic despair.

No, we aren’t being tortured, nor put to death. We aren’t imprisoned in some hellish hole. We aren’t starving in a refugee camp. We aren’t having to kill our children to end their suffering. We’re not being ganged raped or hounded in a genocidal “cleanse.” No, we are “currently” living out none of these brutal existences, which have always been a facet of civilization. We’re on the other end of the disparate spectrum; we’re the terribly privileged folk, still basking in the relative afterglow of global empires, who have had the opportunity to know more than most of the people who have ever inhabited this planet. We have had the wealth and time to build our own cerebral constructs/prisons.

The precipice before “us” today, is but the ledge of the idiosyncratic ivory towers we’ve constructed for ourselves. It has allowed us to see further than anyone has ever seen before. However, the universe has an inherent equilibrium to it, and as with most things, there is a price to be paid for such excessive and fruitless erudition. We are in the throes of a superlative first-world cultural dilemma, of what it truly means to know too much. The tsunami we can clearly see rushing toward us from our lofty perspectives might as well be a raindrop in a puddle as far as our dominant culture is concerned. Therein lies the root of most of our frustration and our ever-ascendant alienation.

*

I don’t believe anyone here, including myself, is honestly capable of accurately framing the very ethos we’ve created at NBL, given it is unconscionably unprecedented to the very letter of the word. This becomes painfully obvious, every time, anyone of us finds ourselves in any group of people. For there is only one thing that is more maddening than NTE, which is that for whatever reason, the vast majority of our fellow citizens just aren’t capable of caring beyond their immediate needs, which is probably why we find such solace at NBL — even if it’s a remorseful succor.

This is why I suspect that probably no one here would respond well to someone telling you/us to be careful, that maybe we’re wrestling with a deceptive awareness, which very well could prove to be beyond all of us. There must be any number of unidentified limits to what our tribal minds can endure, and we here, are surely in the process of testing those boundaries, without having much of a clue as to its intuitive repercussions.

I often now have the sense of receiving some subliminal transmission with my daily dose of disaster, as if “we” are now playing with an extraordinary internal bonfire, which could have within its conflagration, a latency that’s keeping us from realizing we’re being burned alive.

I suspect that for many of us, through all our past tribulations, activism, adversity and endless cultural negation, see ourselves as possessing some kind of hard-bitten warrior spirit. Call it the environmentalist’s thousand-yard stare. We are all too aware that the path of a self-anointed “truth seeker” — that trespassing inclination that has consequently led us here — isn’t a gentle winding path through a spring meadow. It isn’t the road less traveled. It’s not a revolutionary act. It’s not measured by greatness. It’s just a cruel bottomless hole that once ventured into, eventually leaves the light of modernity, but a pinprick in the night sky for anyone hoping to return to the complicity of our dominant cultural pretense.

Truth is a life sentence for anyone who values it, and this was self-evident, well before we happened upon nonlinear rates of climatic change. Now, we are being challenged in a way that no minority faction has ever been before.

Again, the shift in our thinking has been profoundly acute: Being aware of the potential of an unprecedented future reality is one story. Living in full acceptance that the unprecedented has come to pass is poles apart from anything that came before. It’s the difference between objectively analyzing lab rats as they run through a maze, and running either to or from what remains of our life in an inescapable labyrinth.

There are thousands of literary quotes, which either exalt or disparage our perception of TRUTH, yet not one infamous citation was ever written in context to the Gordian knot of existing empirical evidence of our species near term extinction. We are truly in a place, where literally no one has ever been before.

But the more we reflect on this demoralizing reality, the worse it gets. And yes, this has always been the case with political realism, but never to the degree it is now — not even close, not even remotely close. No, we’re initiating a diabolic consciousness to which no living human being has ever had to bear witness. It is an awareness which requires a degree of emotional maturity that’s almost indistinguishable from insanity within western culture.

It truly does seem like we’ve finally dug deep enough to crawl through the center of the world like inquisitive children, only to come out on the other side to discover everything is actually upside down. Where past concepts of truth play out like every other figment of our imagination. Where knowledge becomes but a fetish. Where denial comes to sublimely make sense. Where apathy and hedonism now vie for ethical stakes. Where somewhere along the way, our moral imperatives just became another hit of hopium.

Dig for the truth long enough, and one becomes a miner. And now, decades down the mine, here we all are, like virtual grave diggers at the bottom of a hole we’ve dug through the world, gathered around a cage of canary bones, guessing how long it’s been dead.

*

It’s as if decades ago we formed an old-fashioned bucket brigade to douse our burning house. However, all the buckets have always had holes in them, and they are empty by the time they reach the end of the line. But, since we’ve no other recourse other than continuing to reinvent our past theoretical civic daydreams, we just keep passing the buckets along, while patting ourselves on the back for having done our little part, pretending that it somehow matters because … we imagine we couldn’t live with ourselves if we didn’t act as moral agents in a game we fully know we’ve no agency. Truth no longer sets us free, and it’s highly debatable if it ever has, or what from.

The whole history of social activism has been along for the ride right into the abyss. While there have always been competing theories as to “our” underlying nature, there has never been a parallel terrestrial reality, which civilization has played out. We’ve never been anything other than violent, avarice primates. Game theory was probably a dilemma even for Neanderthals. The totality of humanities generosity, empathy and compassion has already been collectively factored into our ecological dilemma. Societal capacity to be sympathetic, curious, informed, proactive and sacrificial has played alongside all the ruling elites’ abuse, corruption, subterfuge, violence and death in collectively depositing us pass the thresholds we’re at today.

*

What else is NTE other than the final acceptance of the consequences of our species’ fundamental inability to live in balance with our environment? The answer to virtually every question we are ever going to ask, from here on out — post acceptance — can’t honestly be anything other than: “It no longer matters.”

We are currently attempting to live through the overlying of two completely opposing paradigms. The entirety of all our past lived experiences, identities and vested interests are hopelessly ensnared in a recalcitrant culture that very much exists, but wholly and erroneously on borrowed time. All our past wisdom now exists in a state of unending irrelevancy. Our sense of self, our perception of reality is entirely deceptive, and this was true long before any of us were ever born. And now even this fraudulence is flowing away from us. The observable physical universe is literally passing us by within our lifetime!

NTE is a complete intellectual dead end unless we are able to somehow attempt to creatively manifest this awareness in the time we have left. Such awareness will most likely come at a great cost to our existing means … but more about that later.

*

Think of all our countless past endeavors and harebrained dreams throughout our lives that we no longer support or believe in for whatever reason. Think about the source of what originally birthed whatever moral imperatives we have been compelled by over the years. Then ask yourself, how does the acceptance of NTE not completely undermine the basis of that imperative? What becomes of a moral necessity, if the essence, prospect or vitality that spurs its urgency has been lost completely? What exactly are we doing, in still attempting to fight “the good fight,” if we fully accept all has been lost?

And now, we’re ruminating on the essence of our ethical obligations, in full acceptance that the whole concept of anthropocentric morality will soon be completely erased?

All the lights behind our cultural projectors have burned out, all our stories will soon be lost. Time to put our sacred cows out to pasture, for how can our continued belief in the urgency of our past imperatives — post acceptance of NTE — be considered anything other than anachronistic?

We were too late in discovering our species had been unknowingly charged with the stewardship of maintaining a precious equilibrium, and due to the absence of our collective wisdom, our remaining time is now beyond this natural world, where we are but subjects to the wrath of thermodynamics.

I’m coming to suspect that the cognitive dilemma of NTE might merit an entirely new branch of ontology. What does it mean to be present with NTE? How does one reckon the end of everything? The science has delivered us, but unto what … other than our knees?

NTE is a cultural event horizon, that once we allow ourselves to fully accept it, nothing else in this life will be able to escape its ruthless draw. From a macro perspective, nonlinear rates of climatic change, as it applies to humanity, is a Singularity. It will in all probability be the first and last the human race will ever experience. We are both observers and participants in a game of incalculable factors against impossible odds with an inescapable blunt ending. And this is what we’re attempting to make sense of?

This is not a truth that comes to reveal any hidden sacred bond. It is the obliteration of all social bonds. It is not just more of the same, but worse. It is not the past made present, but unprecedented. It is an acceptance, which is a wholesale life-changing event on an unfathomable scale that will eventually lead us to ruin, starting with severe ostracization from everything and everyone within our culture … as many here can already attest.

The fumes from our vested interests and our past ethical bearing can sustain us for only so long, until the very fabric of our presumed consciousness starts to unravel in light of such disquieting imminence. The entire conversation on NBL in regard to NTE is an evolutionary process in reverse. We will not continue to evolve under its appalling shroud, but digress over time into incomprehensible states of being.

We can only contemplate such staggering amounts of present and future death up to a point, until we start to thoroughly emulate it in our private lives. But this isn’t necessarily something we should avoid. It might just be a step within a process that leads us to a degree of equanimity we can’t yet perceive. But then again, it could easily lead us in the opposite direction.

Either way, the time before us now will soon be considered the halcyon days of sweet objective conjecture, where we “the randomly statistical chosen few” deliberate on the greatest catastrophic event in human history while we still have the luxury and methodology to do so. Not unlike some virtual reenactment of Boccaccio’s The Decameron, where instead of waiting out a medieval plague, which is ravaging the masses, we are prognosticating our encroaching demise from a virtual safe distance.

This moment, right now, is but a very short window in time. There isn’t a soul here who hasn’t battled a legion of closed minds by now. All of our backs are against the same damn immovable wall, and no matter how informed we are, or imagine ourselves to be, that entrenched wall is tumbling us off the cliff along with everything and everyone else.

*

But even as the endless futility mounts, where some of us are still imagining “resistance to be fertile,” there is a growing concern in the back of my mind, that by way of our compulsive truth seeking, we are closing in on upending our ability to continue to function in this world for whatever amount of time we have left. And I suspect that it is the psychosomatic blowback — for lack of a better term — from having become aware of NTE, that is coming to primarily occupy our thoughts as we reluctantly settle into the surreal parameters of this new paradigm.

Without a doubt, there is no going back. The clichés are running rampant, a parade of metaphors is spilling out of our collective imagination in attempting to make sense of what is otherwise unfathomable. No, we can’t un-see what has been seen. We can’t undo what has been done. All we can do is attempt to live with knowing that we will not live through it. But I’m not convinced this is even possible, unless one is already well advanced in age.

Concerning NTE, what wisdom can an old rich white man possibly have for a young mother of three? While NTE is universal, how it personally manifests in each of our lives is anything but.

The understanding we are attempting to ascertain will make it absurd for having sought it out, the moment we find “it.” We might as well be nakedly roaming the quarantined grounds of Chernobyl with Geiger counters looking for the hottest spots.

We’re currently inhabiting a state of theoretical prospective famine, which will seem serene once civil chaos and genocide resulting from both starvation, and just the threat of it, starts to eventually decimate our world city by county, state by region, country by continent.

NTE is an cerebral journey into a vacuum. The surreality is replete with epic vistas and abysmal depths, but how can the final destination be anything other than an indescribable black hole of resignation that will eventually steal all meaning from our lips?

*

A part of me almost feels obligated to re-frame any conversation about NTE as an impossible warning for anyone to heed, but one I believe must be acknowledged nonetheless. The forewarning would read as an epitaph over the entrance to a tomb: “The analysis of NTE is the path to your eventual suicide.” For I would wager that anyone who bears the cognizance capable of accepting NTE, today, is seriously undermining their self-preservation in ways not yet known to us. As Montaigne figured out centuries ago, all philosophy does is prepared one for death … and we’re all reluctant philosophers now.

We have inoculated our hearts with an insidious realization, that will eventually devour everything we hold dear … even our children. How long will it be before the ethical dilemma of infanticide starts being seriously discussed, given it’s already on our minds?

We have inadvertently and figuratively stumbled into our own La Brea Tar Pit. Our prescience of the full scale of the dilemma we’re in will not serve us well if it has no passage. I wonder if it will serve us at all as the news only continues to confirm our greatest fears. Knowing both the short and longer term consequences, eventually will become an insufferable burden to carry. I suspect that for many, it already is.

We’re dealing with a discovery of such epic proportion that it simply reduces EVERYTHING in existence to nothing. It is literally impossible to overstate what we’re currently in the process of attempting to delineate.

*

Aside from perennial Malthusianism, our awareness that we have the potential of self-extinction has only been with us for about a half century, give or take. It’s hypothetically the default bases of the entire environmental movement. All that’s effectively changed over these last fifty years, is that we’ve watched in horror that potential become an ever increasing reality. And where starting around thirty years ago, we discovered the ultimate cause of our extinction would be climatic. Around twelve years ago, we realized the climate Leviathan would most likely rise out of the Arctic. Around 3-6 years ago, we discovered that it had already awakened. And only about 9 or 10 months ago did it become empirically probable that our extinction could transpire within our lifetimes. (And again, that’s not even talking about nuclear containment pools.)

We have witnessed over just the last three years, hypothetical Abrupt Climate Change become empirical, where the evidence is so overwhelming, it barely has anything to do with actual observable science anymore, and has everything to do with human psychology, or rather, our shared pathology in the hopium of indefinite growth and progress. And this is why the whole concept of climate change will be, very soon, completely refashioned in context to geo-engineering, if for no other reason, than it sadly now has both the logical and moral high ground compared to doing nothing. Amazing!

Though it seems as if 2,500 years of pessimism has finally come home to roost, nothing could have prepared us for this! While to some degree, the concept of NTE is nothing new for many of us — it now has its own wiki page — this however, is a false sense of familiarity. Our entire framing of this approaching cataclysm has always been couched in a degree of emotional immunity, simply because none of us ever thought we would actually live to see it, not alone, have to live through it. Of the parade of elephants in the climate change room, this one just spit in our face.

It’s as if some apparition has just passed through our soul, and has left us but a shell of our former selves. Though we are all still acting as if NTE is just another sad fact to be compartmentalized amidst the litany of dismal daily news, we are in fact dealing with a monstrous cultural disconnect, which is wholly impossible for any of us to either resist or rise above, although this is exactly what we are all desperately attempting to do.

*

What difference exists between a known end, and it’s ending, but time? But what is the value of such time? The momentary appreciation as to our fortune of being able to die, because we were fortuitous enough in beating the incomprehensible odds in having existed? That is a degree of philosophical reflection that eventually leads to economic destitution in this culture. Fully live with that realization for too long, and one will end up quoting Diogenes while sleeping with dogs under an overpass, or find ourselves on an unsolicited express elevator to Sannyasa.

The irony of honest living is it rarely pays the bills. A fairly high level of self-deception has always been required for Homo economicus to make ends meet. It is not by accident that the majority of contributors to NBL are the equivalent to retired landed gentry, which affords some of us the relative detachment from the daily mind numbing demands of capitalism. This seriously taints any presumed wisdom we might be projecting. In our culture, destitution is a fate almost worse than death, and often it is far more terrifying.

We obviously are all in different living arrangements with entirely different responsibilities. We all have different coping mechanism that unconsciously keep us persevering in this life, even while we seek to prove its utter meaninglessness. We are all trapped by any number of demands, limitations as well as illusions.

The financial stress of staying in the rat race is easy to rebuke, if we’ve now a large enough nest egg as a buffer. However, the crucible of NTE makes playing the game nearly impossible, and this is the reality for the vast majority of humanity.

Plant the seed of NTE in the mind of someone who is economically under the thumb of the system, and it could very easily grow to poison them. What “we” often fail to acknowledge is that over the years of our Mithridatic pre-TSD and depression, we’ve unknowingly developed a certain immunity to otherwise fatal truth.

As we continue to role-play our past imperatives in holding the notion of brutal truth above all else, I suspect that we will soon discover acceptance of NTE to be a proxy to mental illness, for it is without a doubt the epitome of inconsolable despair. It is barely a topic that can be shared among those who even accept it. At some point, something must succumb in such an incredible conflict of competing daily interests.

*

I’m not sure who or what we have a responsibility towards anymore. I can’t even argue if we have a responsibility to ourselves or the rest of life at this point. So I write this today as a cautionary tale for those who may still be circling the rim of the abyss that is NTE, and only occasionally looking down, while still entertaining the prospect of more hopeful alternative outcomes.

Acceptance of NTE is a massively limiting undertaking. It has zero compensation, unless the acceptance of our inevitable predation, starvation or suicide (and, my friends, that is all we’re actually enlightening) can be considered either an interim survivalist fantasy, or a means to peaceful quite resignation … for there are no other outcomes.

“All ye who enter this ethos, will most likely, eventually take their own life.” If this account can in some way be considered offensive, then in my opinion “you” most likely have no business being “here.” Especially those with youth still on their side. In fact, “you” should take what love you have, and run as far from here as you can … and learn from the error of Lot’s wife and never look back.

For this is a place, whether we’re conscious of it or not, that’s engaged in meticulously eroding the very essence of our Being, no matter how we choose to define it.

*

Again, I am of the opinion that all future discussion post-acceptance of NTE, is now an inherently commiserative experience for no other reason than it’s inevitability.

The moment we truly accept NTE is not the overwhelming sensation of excruciating sadness, but the eventual release that comes after. Acceptance of NTE is nothing but surrender. A surrendering of our life force. We are now speaking of two entirely different world views. Our pre-acceptance arguments are non-transferable, they do not translate. Everything post-acceptance becomes meta-physical. It’s all mysticism from here on out, and I say this as a staunch atheist.

But old habits are hard to break, our combative intellects probably make for much of our identities after years of needless acrimony and cultural resistance. But because “our acceptance” is totally subjective, in a collective forum such as this (NBL), our collective understanding of NTE will probably be kept in a permanent embryonic state, as a constant stream of new adherents reluctantly, haphazardly and gradually come to terms at whatever pace our individual acceptance takes to run its grieving course.

Whereby, as everyone’s mind implodes at different times and at varying degrees, it will effectively keep the conversation in a nascent stage of maturation. Our shared patterned behavior will repeat again and again, as we all jump back and forth between the oscillating highs and lows, where some days we achieve a peak of lucidity, only to lose ourselves in a trough of despair as we attempt to wrestle with the unfolding magnitude of the discovery we’ve unearthed.

But I suspect a time will eventually arrive, where the totality of NTE will have finally worn through all of our emotional defenses, washed away all anticipation, utterly crushed our egos, rendered our past intellects redundant and finally deposited us unto an alluvial plan of resignation of there being no way of escaping a brutal end, once global famine is set upon us. There truly is no preparing for what is coming.

But today, we are still recoiling, we need to catalog the destruction, we still bear enough incredulity that we need support, validation, confirmation and commiseration as our past paradigm continues to play scrimmage with all of this unprecedence. It’s still enough of a novelty for disbelief to keep a foothold. Even as we attempt to wrap our minds around this, I suspect we are still far from grasping “it.”

I like to imagine that when that time finally arrives, when all hope truly fades, when even the remote prospect of rural tranquility is lost, we will have come to terms with our personal ending and see the concept of suicide, not as a stigma of cowardice, or a failure of character, but as altruism in the last ethical act left us.

*

Carpe diem sounds exquisite — it always has — but it’s just another illusion, especially in a world of debt. We can pretend that we are living in the moment, all the while worrying how we will continue to afford the roofs over our heads, but honestly, we know deep down that carpe diem demands wild abandon and mindfulness that there may be no tomorrow. Carpe diem does not facilitate mortgage payments.

If we are to truthfully “seize” the time we have left, from the clutches of what now appears to be a hopelessly inane future, this will be, as it has always been, impossible to achieve while being overly concerned with the future of money. This is just a ubiquitous fact that most us try to ignore the best we can, because the only alternative, is the risk of destitution. This dilemma has always been present in a culture dominated by capitalism, it’s just more apparent now as we come to terms with the fact that every narrative has ended, and regardless of our means, they no longer justify any end.

Money is still the force that gives us shelter. It is what keeps us fed and warm at night, regardless of who we are, or where we live. Therefore, for us to embrace our inner Epicurean, truly, we must first come to terms with our inevitable destitution, or rather, we must overcome our fear of destitution, if we’re to grasp whatever “meaning” there is to be had in the face of NTE, beyond just writing about it today.

In our hyper-monetized culture, this is obviously easier said than done, but this is where the perception of suicide can, once again, eventually come to be seen as an elemental gift from the universe. NTE is unprecedented in every sense. It completely alters our opinion of everything, including the end of our life. It’s highly debatable whether there has ever been “meaning.” Many would argue, there is nothing but what IS, completely indifferent to any human moral valuation.

So, what becomes of the meaning of suicide in the face of NTE? As with everything else, it clearly isn’t what it was before. It too has been altered. I believe the concept of suicide — a chosen death — will over time, prove to be one of the only fertile grounds of self-discovery still open to us. As Vaclav Havel said, “Sometimes I wonder if suicides aren’t in fact sad guardians of the meaning of life.”

Of course, I’m not speaking of how we’ve come to frame this exceptionally taboo subject in the past, but how — in light of our incredibly recent acceptance of brutal extinction — there will be a considerable semantic shift in the very meaning of the word/act.

In light of NTE, think of suicide as a double negative.

I believe that this acceptance will not only become the gateway that we must all one day pass through to fully live with the recognition of NTE, but where ultimately it will be seen as our last chance at some semblance of salvation amidst the ensuing chaos. Or rather, NTE is what frees us completely from the concept of salvation. In the words of E.M. Cioran, “The certitude that there is no salvation, is a form of salvation, in fact, it is salvation ….”

There is an emergent ethical imperative surrounding suicide in context to NTE that can’t be denied, no matter how disreputable we still considered it be. Its importance will only continue to grow as society slowly comes to terms with the incredibly limited choices within the dilemma now before us. Again, NTE ends in only one of three ways for everyone: predation, starvation or suicide.

The Absolute-ism of humanity’s collective ecological destruction has always been a bur under the saddle of moral philosophy. Those who are inclined towards biophilia sadly understand that it is simply a value/desire that is not universally shared within western culture … by any stretch of the imagination. It just isn’t something you can teach someone. It’s a “value set” that might as well be considered a talent; something inherited by chance. One either possesses it, or they don’t. After decades of being in the ideological trenches of radical environmentalism, I have finally lost all faith that the essence of biophilia is something that can either be taught or learned, and the few exceptions that exist, are just that: exceptional.

So, now here we biophiliacs are, having to finally accept what we’ve probably long suspected to be true, that the human race has so run amok through the vertical ascension of exponential growth that we’ve irreversibly destroyed our planet’s habitable biosphere. Yes, it took us 200, 5,000, 12,000, or 300,000 years to finally achieve it, but whether or not this is something “we” could have avoided, is beside the point … at least at this point. Damage long done, the latest web of life has been broken yet again.

Lamenting as to the cause is irrelevant as well, other than attempting to personally alleviate our sense of culpability in choosing to believe it was inevitable one way or the other. Attempting to deduce exactly when Homo sapiens fell from earth’s grace has the familiar stench of original sin. And given that many, if not most, here are more driven by fiery belief in morality, rather than cool apathetic indifference, the emergent ethical imperative of suicide, is going to gain ever greater currency over the coming years for anyone who has been burdened with having once cared about wilderness. In fact, it’s impossible for it not to. In the words of Friedrich Nietzsche, “It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night.”

It might sound strange — how could it not — but I believe the question of what suicide becomes, is what circuitously guides us through the cacophony of dead and dying dreams and leads us to whatever “magic” is left to be found in this disintegrating world. The cultural emancipation that comes from overcoming our fear of death, in accepting that we will eventually choose our death, is what ultimately frees us from all attachment, particularly, the fear of destitution and the tyranny of what we consider NOW constitutes our immediate needs.

We must remember that every single vested interest we possess was formed prior to acceptance of NTE. The entirety of our physical existence exists in opposition of the acceptance we’ve now initiated … and it is far from its finality.

In knowing that whatever may come, that it simply doesn’t matter, is the freedom that will allow us to truly leave everything behind, which is what we all must eventually do. Frankly, I don’t believe it’s actually possible to “let go” without having done this.

There is a significant difference between knowing that tomorrow could be our last, and living in full acceptance that if tomorrow is indeed our end, that we know we are ready to go. That knowing is what will allow us to live without fear and truly be present in whatever amount of time we do have left, whether it be a few weeks or a few decades. Once the undulating emotional trauma of NTE runs its acidic course, we begin to glimpse that such forced perverse acceptance, remarkably has within it, the capacity to become the most profound numinous/existential experience the human race has ever “produced.”

*

What makes something tragic? Isn’t the whole notion of tragedy an anthropocentric cultural construct?

Could the past five extinction events be considered a tragedy? Is the cycle of life a tragedy?

What separates expected loss from unexpected loss, other than what we’ve been conditioned to expect?

How do we reconcile our sense of the tragic loss of life, resulting from human activity, with the fact that the vast majority of life on earth has already succumbed to extinction, and where if it hadn’t, we most likely wouldn’t exist?

Are other life forms blameworthy for having driven their competitors into extinction, or do we somehow morally hold our selves apart/above, in believing “we” had a choice, due to our higher cognitive faculty?

Is NTE only a tragedy, because we’re aware of our culpability?

And exactly, who is “we”? What evidence is there of our species possessing the necessary collective wisdom capable of overcoming our collective destruction of the natural world? Is there any evidence that our species possesses collective wisdom at all?

Or more importantly, when has the ruling elite ever acted altruistically, since the entire history of civilization has always been controlled by a ruling class? Whatever exceptions may have existed for a brief time, there’s an obvious reason they are statistically irrelevant.

Therefore, is NTE only a tragedy, because “we” presume it could have been prevented? This is a crucial question in regard to our acceptance of NTE, for if it couldn’t have been prevented, can it still be considered tragic? Because how much does our sense/belief that it could have somehow been averted, still affect our sense of culpability in dictating our moral imperatives? And if we do believe it could have been prevented, how is this anything other than just a fantastic article of faith in Utopianism? And how could such a utopian society been effective without becoming an oppressive totalitarian State?

I ask these questions having spent decades foolishly projecting my ecological values unto an utterly indifferent citizenry. It is all too easy for us to isolate ourselves in minority enclaves and overlook that the vast majority of our species has, nor will they ever, possess the macro ecological values capable of overriding our biological imperative.

In my opinion, the degree we continue to measure NTE in preventable-tragic terms, will mostly likely determine our sense of moral imperative vs. hedonic resignation.

As radicals, at what point does our sense of culpability as to the crimes of empire just become a shell game because our past identity/vested interests can’t let go of what we know is completely lost, or that regardless of our morality, it couldn’t have been prevented?

*

But hold on, what of our personal responsibility to the natural world, whose destruction we’ve all profited from? What right do any of us first-worlders have in being able to seek enjoyment, in light of an extinction event we’ve all done more than our share in creating? What of all the life under our collective industrial thumb, still struggling to exist? What right do we thieves have to go quietly into that good night? Can’t the remnants of our past imperatives still find more proactive forms of dissent, civil disobedience and rebellion even in acceptance of NTE? Wouldn’t the most ethical choice be to dedicate our lives in helping ease the suffering of the less fortunate? As moral agents, are we not obligated to swim upstream to the bitter end, regardless? Isn’t “secular morality” solely based on the righteousness of the act itself, despite its outcome?

Are the answers to these questions obvious to anyone who considers themselves to be driven by a moral imperative that is rooted in a sense of culpability? It has been the driving force in my life, for my entire adult life. I have by no means painlessly come to the acceptance I can no longer deny.

The driving wedge of course is NTE, which completely flips the script as to the “meaning” of everything, including what is and isn’t an ethical act. For how ethical is it, for us privileged few to actually continue to live, full well knowing that it is our relatively obese existences that are the ultimate causality of the degradation of the natural world? As ecologically minded moral agents, what right do we have to continue to consume … anything, in full acknowledgment that we’ve already consumed far too much? In a world of permanent scarcity, what isn’t stolen from someone who has been victimized by our empire? How much more energy will all of us consume from here on out, in spite of how we live? How much basic material goods will we continue to plunder while we breath, regardless of the morality of our behavior?

From a purely logical point of view, in a reality of gross ecological overshoot, isn’t altruistic suicide actually the most ethical act any of us first-worlders can now affect, or rather, impart? If living by example is our moral goal, couldn’t it be argued that whatever ends our continued consumption of the natural world, is actually the highest ethical objective?

Clearly, there is no one way of answering any of these questions. Again, even before the advent of NTE, resolution as to “meaning” itself was philosophically unquantifiable. What is or isn’t considered anthropocentric truth has been literally debated for thousands of years. Hume’s “is, ought” conundrum has never been resolved, nor will it ever be, and this was true even when humanity at least had the illusion of “progress.” What physical act, or belief system regardless of its morality, isn’t hopelessly anthropocentric?

As breeding, consuming, polluting animals on a planet choking to death from our affluence, wouldn’t it be considered the highest display of human consciousness, to willfully end our self-destructive lives as a testament to the highest level of anthropocentric conscientiousness?

*

At least for me, there is only one question we need to ask ourselves in attempting to reconcile our past-present-future perspectives: In a post-acceptance reality of NTE, what doesn’t become relative?

For me, nothing … anymore. NTE is an astonishing equalizer. Everything, all of life in existence, just became relative to everything else, including all the life that has already passed into extinction. Our presumed disconnect between life today, and the 98% of life that no longer exists, has ended.

Those who still continue to hold onto their past sense/construct/modality/illusion of morality, again, probably have no business contemplating NTE. All of our past ethical dilemmas were involuntarily reconciled the moment we accepted it, which is why “our acceptance” of such an utterly demoralizing event, is/was the unconscious fulcrum point which leads to the ethical downfall of every thought here, or thereafter.

*

Once we begin to frame the meaning of NTE in context to our personal life choices, it instantly stops being an abstract concept, which again, is all it’s been up to this point, and we’re forced to seriously confront the single greatest dilemma in the history of humanity, whereby face up to the reality that we simply haven’t much longer to live.
How do we draw the ultimate conclusion of our life, while we’re still filled with vitality? When we all still have so much life to live and share, how do we come to terms with the unprecedented reality that we will most likely soon be forced to take our life, for the sole reason of avoiding needless suffering?

Obviously, it is only natural that we avoid this dreadful conclusion for as long as we possibly can, which is what most of us are probably going to do, especially those who haven’t the freedom to act otherwise. We will all most likely play the waiting game, especially young parents, and continue on with our lives pretty much as we have up to this point, for as long as we can, and decide how we’ll roll with the punches as they come.

When in doubt, play it safe. Slow and steady wins the race. No point in making any brash decisions, while there’s still so much room for doubt. Right?

BUT, we can only continue to skirt around the issue of what NTE actually means to us personally for so long. I would suppose that for almost everyone here, our lives are basically still the same as they were prior to this dire sublimation. Little has probably physically changed as a result, yet, we all know that this will only be true for so long.

The remainder of this essay is a little more opinionated. It is written for those of us who have decided to be brash in our acceptance that we simply haven’t much time left to experience however much time remains. I have finally left my past moral imperatives to wither in the solar winds, and have now come down on the side of ethical hedonism as being the only way “I” can truly be present with NTE.

*

There is no right or wrong way of attempting to live through what simply can’t be. It is impossible for our individual sense of morality, to not be rife with false analogy in context to the incomparable unprecedence now upon us. We will all be victims of either deliberate or unintended consequence, some sooner, others slightly later, but there is no getting out of harm’s way. There’s no there, there.

Again, for those who consider there “might” still be a chance to turn this bloody ship around, then it logically makes no sense for those to even be considering NTE, for not only is it a false pretense, but its utterly self-defeating. Personally, I would rather the next cadre of activist know nothing of NTE, where they battled against themselves to the bitter end, completely blind of the insurmountable odds. What a far more preferable and enviable way to be alive.

But those of us who have spent far too much time down the rabbit hole, where are we in practical terms as to “now what?” If you’re either physically infirmed, too old to desire making any drastic changes, or you’ve either young children or elderly dependents in your care, or for that matter, you’re more than content wherever you’re at right now, then there really isn’t much left to be said, other than sit back or stand up, and watch the whole shithouse go up in flames in whatever manner you choose.

But I am none of the above, I have no dependents. I’ve seen collapse coming for a long time, and I have centered my life around it. I have almost no responsibilities I can’t walk away from. Some might consider me fortunate, but it’s been quite intentional and it’s definitely come at a high price. So how I or any of us come to frame Ragnarok, it’s going to be subjectively unique to our circumstances. But I suspect my circumstances are also shared by many here as well.

So, all things considered, I would suggest we start making plans to sell off everything we have while we still can, and roam this world and experience the natural wonder it still possesses, while our existing civility and privilege still affords us this last opportunity.

The most essential aspect behind this most unreal understanding, is for it to be done in full acceptance that when either time, money, or our Will simply runs out, we’ll have acceded we’ve reached the end of our personal journey, and it will be time to exercise the only free will we’ve probably ever had, in choosing whatever exit strategy we’re most comfortable with. A chosen death is a uniquely vague timeline for each of us, but one with a very common end.

In other words, start contemplating your eventual suicide today, so when the time finally does come, we’ll be able to fearlessly embrace the moment with open arms, and just maybe, before that day arrives, we will be able to live with a degree of ontological presence, literally never experienced across the entire arc of humanity.

For if we don’t, very soon, we will wish we had.

Here is why I think this is true.

My long definition of NTE is both descriptive yet hopelessly indistinct: It will eventually arise from a sequence of catastrophic global civic failure stemming from permanent food scarcity, as a consequence of ever-increasing extreme weather events, due to both the collapse and predictability of the Northern Hemispheric jet stream, as the temperature and pressure gradients continue to weaken in the Arctic. And lest we forget, NTE will be greatly aided and preceded by humanity’s murderous forte. It can also effectively be summed up in two words: Permanent drought! And again, I’m intentionally avoiding the subject of containment pools, which easily merits its own essay.

At least for me, the meaning of life is completely determined by the quality of life, which is why I’ve always considered life imprisonment to be far worse than a death sentence. I have always known that if the quality of my life was degraded to a point that it lost all meaning, then life would no longer be worth living.

Enter NTE. Ergo, enter the almost impenetrable awareness that it’s only a question of time, before each of us consider life to no longer be worth living. Aside from that being nearly an impossible acceptance to attempt to live with, it has become sine qua non from which every thought I now have must pass through. Therefore, all the remaining meaning in my life only has a limited amount of time between now, and some indeterminate point in the very near future for me to consider life worth living. This novel reality is the actual crux of this entire essay.

As cognitive filters go, NTE doesn’t let too much through. In fact, only one idea as how best to spend my remaining time has made it pass this mind-boggling juggernaut: Peacefully and quietly leave this world as a completely carefree drug-addled impoverished vagabond, who eventually takes a lovely one-way walk into the woods.

I have already accepted that today is as good as life on earth will ever be, it’s all downhill from here, the extinction event that is already terribly advanced can’t be stalled, so the clock as to my remaining time is already ticking along with all the rest of life.

And yes, that mortal coil started unraveling at my conception, and this is why age, will most likely be the greatest factor in determining the choices we make from here on out. If we feel we’ve plenty of life still in us, we’ll most likely feel inclined to stuff as many new experiences in the time we have left, compared to those who are well pass their prime, and naturally see ease and comfort as their best available option.

I am someone who would much rather die from a rattlesnake bite, after days of hallucinating on mushrooms in the desert, than sit behind my computer and continue to alphabetize the apocalypse until the power goes out, as I’ve done for far, far too long already.

All that is left is for me to discover the courage to truly live with this morbid conviction, but to be completely honestly, I haven’t mustered the nerve yet. My behavior is still one of passive deference, for reasons still unknown to me, but most likely it’s just a jumble of distraction, guilt, fear, melancholy and a little laziness thrown in for safe measure.

I’m still telling myself that I need two more years of trending data sets to feel confident NTE will transpire much sooner than any of us ever imagined. Logically, I have accepted it, but I have yet to emotionally resolve my manifold hypocrisy.

Finding the courage to willingly embrace our inevitable destitution unto death is the only purpose of accepting NTE in my opinion. If this is not our objective, then I can see very little reason for even taking it into consideration. Why initiate such a ruinous acceptance into our existing lives, if we’re not going to allow our past lives to actually be ruined?

I am not old enough to die of natural causes before global famine descends across the globe, given it is probably only a few years away at this point anyhow. Whether or not most of us die as a direct result of famine or genocide is a question that simply no longer interests me. At this stage of the game, it’s all equally horrific. So what’s the point in continuing to waste our precious time even thinking about the millennial pernicious power plays of hairless apes?

For not unlike our current gross inequality, as long as capitalism rues the day, and I fear it wretchedly will until the very end, food stuff will flow in only one direction, towards those who can afford it. Those who can’t, will either quietly starve, riot or be killed.

Governments will have only two options in addressing this, either disintegrate and schism into temporary competing factions, or become brutal oppressive genocidal police states of in-groups and out-groups, thus postponing complete civic collapse by a number of years, through vicious demand destruction.

Governments with large securities apparatuses will most likely become police states, while governments without advanced security forces will most likely collapse. Endless war between competing police states will be the only perceived surrogate for hope in a world of permanent famine. The global citizenry will willfully welcome tyranny, much in the same way we always have. And as many of us have already accredited, “what’s past is prologue” … it’s just going to be unbelievably atrocious for the world’s poor in the beginning, again, much as it is already.

We live in a hyper-interdependent global market place, completely irrespective of its sustainability. State currency valuation and exchange through central banking is the sum total of what our speculative civilization now reflexively strives to protect. Whatever means keeps liquidity in the markets and power in the State, will be kept in play for as long as humanly possible.

Entire nations will be sacrificed upon the altar of maintaining capital flow and investment, it’s just a question of trickling economies of scale on the way down. We inhabit an utterly amoral economic system that will sacrifice all of life to sustain itself. Capitalism will double down until it, or we, cease to be. As long as there is enough energy to allow capitalists to cannibalize all perceived assets in an indebted world, then even famine on a global scale will just be a game of attrition controlled by the world’s ruling elite, in a continuous charade of paying a well-armed Peter to murder an ever-starving Paul.

It dawned on me a few years back that after over a decade of intensely attempting to collectively network with others through a myriad of preparedness schemes that I had just lost the will to survive in the collapsing world I was proselytizing. This is quite different from no longer wanting to live, for I very much love life, and have no desire to needlessly cut it short. I have just always seen living and surviving as to two separate entities. I am also at an age where I feel I’ve already taken more than my share.

I have decided after decades of feral study, without any sense of certainty, and based only on my opinion as to what is and isn’t probable, that when the Arctic sea ice is completely gone during the summer, when the earth’s Holocene epoch completely loses one of its primary thermal regulators, we are probably only a few years at best, before the ruling classes of the world realize global agriculture is untenable, and at that point, the lack of alternatives will be rather self-evident. And I simply have no desire to live through that deleterious fallout, nor do I even feel I have a right to.

What an endless perverse decay of ideas we now embark, where NTE can be seen as a bizarre new lease on life for those who are in a position to access it.

I can’t yet claim I’ve achieved this, for I’m still terribly conflicted and immersed in a lifetime of despondent culpability, but I can see an entirely new transgressive identity rising out of the ashes of this phenomenal and ominous acceptance.

Only a few years ago, I would be the first to lead the charge in attacking the very perspective I now possess. But necessity dictates my moral imperative, and it requires at least some belief of a viable future for the remaining life on earth. But I am now without this belief, and it seems my long personal sense of insignificance, has finally caught up to my actions. I was weary long before there was no point.

So, I am not one for skulking through what remains of this life, only to carefully arrive at extinction. I am going out on my terms, no one else’s. But until that day comes, I’m going to embrace this endless redefining of life for as long as I desire, as I hysterically fall out of this world.

If NTE is a tsunami, I’m sure in the hell not going to wait for it to arrive, I’m going to swim out to it across the desert night sky.
________________

Whistle-blower extraordinare Sibel Edmonds connects the dots brilliantly with respect to Boston and Syria. This essay is well worth reading, especially if you don’t believe in government-inspired conspiracies.

Comments 370

  • The idea that we’re predisposed towards overpopulation, as well as to violence, competition,… is belied by historical facts. Sorry, but there is such a thing, and the vast majority of human history totally contradicts such notions. Due to the decisions of a small number of people, our social systems took a giant step in the wrong direction starting just a few hundred years ago (The Enclosures in late medieval England), leading to the birth of capitalism, and this became a rush in that same direction. The vast majority have had zero role in making these decisions. One could say we are complicit because we haven’t overthrown this system. but to reiterate my previous point, there is a matter of degrees of complicity.

    TPTB will solve nothing. They cannot control the collapse, in fact they cannot even control their own global economic structure, which they don’t fully understand to begin with, all they can do is use it to enrich themselves while it lasts. Their by-far-most-likely course is for their various factions to prepare for and then engage in global war. Anyone who thinks they will implement a new, more stable, far less populated world is really hallucinating on bad drugs. Those who look to them for any sort of solution are highly likely to have a desire, secret or even unconscious, to join them.

  • BtD: You just get better every day
    You’re like climate change in a reverse way
    Whatever the subject
    No one will object
    To the cool things that you have to say.

    (sorry it’s so mangled)

  • Consistent with Daniel’s request, the two-comment-per-day rule is hereby suspended for his essay. Thanks, everybody, for the informed, informative commentary.

  • @Erin I laugh at those who say we’re evolving toward some Aquarian race of spiritual adepts who will inhabit the stars.

    haha! That is my Plan B. We came from the stars anyway, so why not go back? On a more serious note, if you ever get a chance to see this documentary, please do so. It made me a little less ashamed to be human. http://runningwildfilm.com

  • @ Jeff S.

    You state:

    “Daniel: regarding an earlier point, about using Nazis as a comparison. You are assuming that all humans are equally culpable. I totally disagree……”

    Jeff, you are totally off the mark in your assuming that I would ever think all humans are equally culpable. If you had any idea as to the gravity of my sense of culpability, you would never make such an assumption. I’ve been a deep green anarchist for a terribly long time, you think I don’t know where the stones need to be thrown?

    However, let’s take your words and earmark another schism within the evolution of NTE awareness.

    The question is: Are all humans equally culpable?

    In general, I suspect everyone left of center will say Fuck No! While those less inclined to green anarchy, will probably be more inclined to agree. Conservatism doesn’t do culpability.

    But, you see, the point for me is that with all things being equal, where if everyone had equal opportunity, I believe, we would still have destroyed ourselves.

    In regards to culpability, a major distinction needs to be made between economics and ecology, especially in regards to equal opportunity. From an anthropological perspective, we are all equally culpable when presented with the same opportunity. We are all equally genetic primates, and the human races is just tragically hardwired for hierarchy.

    The dilemma I sense you’re sharing, is something I share as well, which is the disbelief that something as significant as our historic global socio-economic paradigm, could be so easily erased, by just a rise in temperature of only a few degrees.

    Such a massive reshuffling of physical properties, will inevitably transform our perspectives, and this will naturally leave many casualties. Not just dead bodies, but dead ideologies, and just one of the many causalities to come, will be our concept of resistance.

    This is why it’s good we are having this conversation, for I am very interested in how “we”, intellectually hold two completely contradictory beliefs: The moral imperative of resisting an omnicidal culture, and the acceptance of being beyond the point of no return?

  • @ oldgrowthforest

    First off, I love your online handle. Sad that so few people have had the opportunity to actually experience an old growth forest in their life. My life changed forever the first time I did, in fact, that was the day I became a radical. It is a twisted jumble of emotions when standing among the ancient giants, one is simultaneously overwhelmed by immense reverence as well as a profound sense of loss.

    You stated:

    “I admit that I am frightened and terribly alone in this awareness”.

    I think most everyone here can related with where you’re coming from. For what’s it worth, I think it’s incredibly brave of you to even be able to admit that much, but I do believe this fear we share, will over time, evolve into something we can’t yet identify.
    At least for those who have the freedom to “let go”. Those who don’t, now that’s a whole different ball game…..isn’t it?

    Thank you for the honesty Old growth.

  • Jeff S, you said:

    “Due to the decisions of a small number of people, our social systems took a giant step in the wrong direction starting just a few hundred years ago (The Enclosures in late medieval England), leading to the birth of capitalism, and this became a rush in that same direction.”

    If we’re going by historical fact, how does the explosion of China fit into the birth of capitalism? Not to mention so many other, though not global collapsed civilizations from overshoot that weren’t capitalistic?

    A question was brought up at the America2Point0 discussion, which revived Guy’s participation there. I don’t know if anyone here other than KathyC is still following that circle but the question was about the validity of Guy’s recommendation that people look into Deep Green Resistence. So I contributed this which works as a response to Daniel’s most recent comment as well:

    I can’t speak for Guy obviously but my understanding is that his near term extinction is unavoidable. He says “resistance is fertile” in the sense that it is a moral imperative. But it’s not going to change the overall trend. I don’t see DGR accomplishing anything, since after much anguish and grieving, I have come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that humans are no more capable of averting overshoot than the reindeer on St. Michael’s Island. I don’t see much reason to hasten the collapse of industrial civilization in order to increase the chances of more species surviving, since it’s doing a pretty good job all by itself. Also given the accelerating positive and irreversible feedbacks already underway, it’s quite likely that sooner or later we will go into runaway heating, and Earth will become like Venus, with no life.

    I didn’t add, but I’m thinking seriously about no longer resisting to the extent that I have been. I’m very close to accepting, in an emotional and not just intellectual way, that there’s absolutely nothing I can do, or ever could have done, to even slow NTE one iota. It’s possible that there’s very little time left. Perhaps it makes more sense to spend it walking in what’s left of the woods.

  • @ Red Eft

    Something about your comments always makes me think of Opal Whiteley. Does that name mean anything to you?

    I completely agree with you here: ” My favorite aspect of this blog is the insight into how others are living and plan to live with the knowledge of NTE.”

  • Tom, your limerick, not bad at all…

    @ Jeff “The idea that we’re predisposed towards overpopulation, as well as to violence, competition,… is belied by historical facts. Sorry, but there is such a thing, and the vast majority of human history totally contradicts such notions.”

    I suggest you get Craig Dilworth’s book Too Smart for our Own Good, which will disabuse you of your false notion rather quickly. We like other critters push against the limits and unless we are limited by some other critter we will push until we run out of resources.

    You might also read this article THE INTRODUCTION, INCREASE,
    AND CRASH OF REINDEER ON ST. MATTHEW ISLAND
    By David R. Klein http://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/nats104/00lect21reindeer.html about another species that has a population that normally doesn’t overrun its resource base, but did when introduced to an island with no predators.

    We humans increase in population every time we found a new technology to extract resource (from fire on up) and every time we found new lands to live on.

    Inter tribe, we being a social critter, violence and competition is usually traded for cooperation. But outside the tribe less so. Whatever works, when violence works we use it, when competition works we compete, when cooperation works we use it.

  • No more two comment rule ? So we can get back to UFOs and crop circles and quantum consciousness ? Yippeee !

    @ Gail

    Ulv, I don’t regard meaning and spirituality as synonyms. I associate them together because, in my view, they are both fantasies of the human imagination.

    So. Eliminate them. What’s left ?

    @ Jeff S.

    TPTB will solve nothing. They cannot control the collapse, in fact they cannot even control their own global economic structure, which they don’t fully understand to begin with..

    True. And too easy and simple to blame TPTB anyway. Who voted for Bush/Cheney twice ? Obama twice ? Whoever they are, they’ve got what they wanted. And just about everyone in USA is part of the 1% compared with the 99% of the 7 billion.

    @ oldgrowthforest

    I absolutely love that stuff! But most of those experiences occurred more than twenty-eight years ago, and recently as I’ve approached collapse more consciously, I have had the darkest doubts of my life.

    I don’t know what there is to doubt. It all seems very simple to me. Bit like driving a car, adjust consciousness by adjusting breath, etc.

    I found a good source for some ancient taoist texts. I put it on my blog here

    @ Daniel

    ….how others are living and plan to live with the knowledge of NTE.

    Wise brother, I see it as us all standing on the Beach of Doom, nowhere much to run to, that very thin white line on the far horizon. But it’s slow motion. It’s far away. Maybe twenty years, I don’t know. Maybe ten, maybe thirty. I don’t know. Some are hypnotised, some have not noticed.

    Quite a lot of days, hours, minutes, to fill. I just continue as I am, my death will arrive soon enough, I don’t want to hasten it’s arrival. Each moment is precious, unique, will never return. If there’s the slightest chance, or even of there’s no chance, I still try to help the wildlife here, just out of habit, because it’s the right thing to do. Doesn’t require much effort. Benign neglect. Taoist gardening.

  • What’s left? Why, the imagination is left! It may be the product of brain synapses but it impresses me considerably nonetheless. In fact, it’s quite enough. I don’t require a soul, a spirit, or meaning to appreciate nature, and the beautiful and inspirational parts of human culture such as music, poetry (including limericks!), literature, painting and sculpture and opera. As Guy said in his interview, art matters. Maybe it’s all that matters.

    On the other hand I’m very interested in this Jamestown discovery. Apparently it has been known for some time to have occurred, and not only at that settlement – the remains they found just provide proof positive. Does anyone know how is it that they were starving? I was already pretty sure that surviving for long without industrial civilization is pretty much impossible due to the degraded landscape (climate change aside) but back then it was pretty bountiful, wasn’t it?

  • Thank You for your essay. I can relate to much of it, but deviate somewhat in that my metaphysical inclination views our collective delusion to be that we are separate individuals, instead of a single demiurge to experience infinitely. I think what lies behind the curtain is that we are this oneness, but until that becomes more real than even the acceptance of the NTE we will writhe in search of measure and meaning as it pertains to this particular level of experience we are clothed in. The ugliness that will unfold no doubt chills me too, but this level of perception, this duality that we see, requires darkness and light. I dread sounding oh so Alan Watts, so I am only wishing to say that I feel for you, I wish you a dignified closure, and I hope you can be free from a sense of blame. Life will continue to flourish infinitely across the multiverse. See you there.

  • @ Gail

    What’s left? Why, the imagination is left! It may be the product of brain synapses but it impresses me considerably nonetheless. In fact, it’s quite enough. I don’t require a soul, a spirit, or meaning to appreciate nature, and the beautiful and inspirational parts of human culture such as music, poetry (including limericks!), literature, painting and sculpture and opera.

    Hahahaha. You’re not exactly rigorous in your thinking, are you. It’s all a product of ‘imagination’, ( whatever that is ? )

    Hasn’t it struck you that, by your own logic, this ‘I’ which is impressed, is, or might be, equally ‘a product of imagination’ which, for you, means it doesn’t exist ?

    And ‘nature, and the beautiful and inspirational parts of human culture such as music, poetry (including limericks!), literature, painting and sculpture and opera’ being totally devoid of any meaning ?

    So what the heck does the word ‘meaning’ mean, to you, if poetry is meaningless ?

    I give up, Gail. You’re in Humpty Dumpty Land where words mean whatever you say they mean.

  • @U I give up, Gail. You’re in Humpty Dumpty Land where words mean whatever you say they mean.

    The 2 rule is lifted for this essay only if I understand Guy’s comment. I believe the rule about not insulting people is still in force.

  • @ Gail & Kathy C.

    I don’t require a soul, a spirit…

    Neither of you ‘believe in’ a soul or a spirit or any such thing, you see existence as purely material, and you both show little patience with anyone who expresses any other view.

    I insist that there is something called a soul, that I am my soul, however, when I use the word I am not speaking of it in the same way that most Christians would use it, which I would consider to be a debased and misconceived understanding which has lost touch with the actual phenomenon. I use the term soul as in subtle body, and the term spirit as in chi or ki, as demonstrated in this video. To suggest that this force is imaginary, or a product of imagination, is just silly. You can kill people with this force, you can also heal people with this force.

    I have no wish to derail Daniel’s topic, but oldgrowthforest wanted to talk about spiritual stuff. On previous occasions, some people here have made such conversation very difficult.

  • I didn’t so much want to talk about spiritual things as I am very uncomfortable with some of the comments I have read here regarding religion and spirituality, and it causes me not to want to talk about anything at all, anymore than if people here were making derogatory comments about other kinds of groups of people.

    Does it really have to be pointed out that “religious” people are just like everyone else and some of them are really very good people who derive a lot of strength and wisdom from their understandings and are deeply decent to all the people around them? I have known such people. And that many if not most of them are ordinary idiots, hairless monkeys, and some of them are psychopaths masquerading as pious? That they are just like races, or nationalities, or ages of people, or certain professions, and comments that lump all things religious or spiritual together, that hold up the worst and call it “all” look a lot like comments that bash any other group?

    This is really very simple.

  • I feel that I understand where the author is coming from. I think we have all had dark days but from my personal experience I believe some things that get me through.

    * I have lived long enough, seen enough and made enough decisions to know that everything I ever believed was either completely wrong or missing some key parts. Although I believe in the NTE with the facts I have at hand, my hit rate for accuracy tells me I am probably dead wrong. I just don’t know how yet.

    * Considering the astronomical odds against us even existing, there is always a chance that we will continue to a while longer. Once again, I just don’t know how.

    * I am stubborn. Life has shown me that the easy route is most likely the wrong one. Don’t count on me committing suicide just yet. If the universe want’s me dead, it knows where to find me.

    * Regardless of whether you believe completely in NTE or not, the advice of making the most of the time and resources you have access to is always good advice. Face it NTE was always the outcome for each of us individually, we just weren’t expecting so much company.

    * I can’t prove that I will live to see tomorrow let alone the end of the world. Make the most of your time, do what you can and what you feel is important. NTE does not change the universal truth that we are all going to die one little bit, nor should it change what you intended to do with your life either.

    Life is but a dream, always was.

  • Ripley,

    Tony, would you at least concede that someone with tens of billions of dollars, 400 foot yachts, fleets of limousines, and more mansions than he can count, and who believes that he still needs more, is at least setting a bad example? Worse, say than the person whose satisfied with a small cabin with one light bulb?

    A bad example of what? I can’t really understand that sort of behaviour (the rich guy who wants more) and, from your brief description of the scenario, I agree that I’d want people to follow the person satisfied with a simple existence but my point was that even than simple liver is almost certainly living unsustainably and taking advantage of civilisation (which enabled the light bulb to be manufactured and the electricity to be supplied to that bulb. And maybe the paint that is spread on the cabin, along with the roofing materials.

    Could the person living a simple life even live that life without civilization? If not, then he should feel guilty that he’s supporting a system that is dragging down all life on the planet. Of course, emotionally, it seems as though the the latter is setting a far better example that the former, but following the example may just be delaying the inevitable, rather than avoiding it altogether. If, somehow, we had all been living a simple civilized life, then the limits we’re hitting would be far off in the future and we would not even be considering the impact of that way of living, until some later century, but that really wasn’t my point.

  • Ah where were you when I had dreams of becoming a sacrificial lamb on the altar of being good.

    Goodness is a ladder placed on “badness” to scale one’s way up the cliff; after that both goodness and badness are left behind. Alternately goodness is a thorn used to extract the thorn of “badness” after which both thorns are discarded.

    Hot muggy weather has always made me feel like I was suffocating.

    In East Pakistan (subsequently Bangladesh) hot muggy weather was de rigueur from childhood, and in fact the preferred mode to anything cool or cold.

    Well there went my vision of spending my life doing good for others.

    Never was a problem for me. With the first twenty-four years of my life spent in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, [both West Pakistan (now the Islamic Republic of Pakistan) and East Pakistan (now the Islamic Republic of Bangladesh)], I can and do sympathise with the The Deutschländer Yids under Der Führer. As a consequence, “others” mean emmeffs (a term I a acquired from nonwhites in ‘mericuh). They are all manifestations of the Divine in principle, but it may take more than a lifetime to get from principle to practice: hence the myth of reincarnation.

    we do good for others as much for our own image of ourselves as “one who does good” as we do it for others.

    Au contraire we (Buddhas, Jesuses et al. excepted) do it exclusively for the image of ourselves; the others are merely a convenient implement, sordalike a backscratcher.

    But once you dispense with that you are free to figure out what you might do that will be helpful.

    “Helpful” – to oneself, and/or to one’s DNA?

    And Hitler? He was just obeying the will of the German people. Follow that logic, and pretty soon nobody is responsible.

    Au contraire, it is incumbent upon the Deutscländers to follow Der Führer’s final advice to them. Perhaps it can be incorporated soon enough into Daniel’s suggestions for all of humanity.

    Jamestown settlers resorted to cannibalism

    No big deal. Catholics do it every Sunday at Mass.

    Carbon Footprint, CO2 emissions: most of the stink is coming from the ones who fart the most: the Anus-1 countries.

    “What do we do now?” …….. getting back to basic biology

    Whom do we do now?

    Spirituality and meaning:
    2 Js: Jehovah and Jesus
    3 Js: Jack, Jim and Jose (Daniels, Beam & Cuervo).
    Take yer pick.
    No dimensions to spirituality: its either the whole shebang, or just brains, bottles and bibles.

    Ending industrial civilisation for the species Homo sapiens is like a pod of great whales moving back ashore. Don’t hold your breath – they can’t either, not forever.

    I have lived my life fully convinced of these realities,

    As long as there is the plural, there is a delusion.

    I am deeply put off by comments that lump religion as being no more than the Crusades or the Inquisition.

    The problem lies entirely with the put off, not with the putter off nor with the putting off.

  • “The problem lies entirely with the put off, not with the putter off nor with the putting off.”

    Well, that is your religion. And it’s not the best one out there.

    But thanks, you’ve resolved my ambivalence regarding participating in this forum. I don’t need to be here and participate.

  • wildwoman wrote:

    “I’m gonna go check the ammo levels at the local gun shop now.”

    +1

  • You’re in Humpty Dumpty Land

    Fortunately Gail, you have not meditated your way to a great fall. You would then be completely incapable of recognising your situation.

    I believe the rule about not insulting people is still in force.

    However it does not change the nature of – should we say? – the beast.

    I use the term soul as in subtle body, and the term spirit as in chi or ki,

    I, on the other hand, use the both terms as the Mexicans might say “stupid of linen” – fool of sheet. Meditators beware.

    Does it really have to be pointed out that “religious” people are just like everyone else

    Not just religious people, but religious trees, insects, mountains ‘nwhathavyu. If yah don’t see that, yah ain’t relieffinggious at all.

  • Daniel Says:
    May 2nd, 2013 at 4:38 pm
    “@ Jeff S.
    You state:

    “Daniel: regarding an earlier point, about using Nazis as a comparison. You are assuming that all humans are equally culpable. I totally disagree……”
    Jeff, you are totally off the mark in your assuming that I would ever think all humans are equally culpable. If you had any idea as to the gravity of my sense of culpability, you would never make such an assumption. I’ve been a deep green anarchist for a terribly long time, you think I don’t know where the stones need to be thrown?”

    Sorry for the assumption, i was working off your remarks, which seemed to indicate that we were indeed all (i.e. humans as a species) equally at fault for our current predicament.

    “However, let’s take your words and earmark another schism within the evolution of NTE awareness.
    The question is: Are all humans equally culpable?
    In general, I suspect everyone left of center will say Fuck No! While those less inclined to green anarchy, will probably be more inclined to agree. Conservatism doesn’t do culpability.”

    Actually, many right wingers will blame sinners, immigrants, “commie pinko fags,” and the like. :-)

    “But, you see, the point for me is that with all things being equal, where if everyone had equal opportunity, I believe, we would still have destroyed ourselves.
    In regards to culpability, a major distinction needs to be made between economics and ecology, especially in regards to equal opportunity. From an anthropological perspective, we are all equally culpable when presented with the same opportunity. We are all equally genetic primates, and the human races is just tragically hardwired for hierarchy.”

    There is ZERO evidence for the “hardwired” claim. Anthropological studies indicate quite the contrary. See Pierre Clastres’ “Society Against the State.”

    “The dilemma I sense you’re sharing, is something I share as well, which is the disbelief that something as significant as our historic global socio-economic paradigm, could be so easily erased, by just a rise in temperature of only a few degrees.”

    Not sure what you mean. I most certainly have no disbelief in that.

    Gail Says:
    May 2nd, 2013 at 4:55 pm
    “Jeff S, you said:
    “Due to the decisions of a small number of people, our social systems took a giant step in the wrong direction starting just a few hundred years ago (The Enclosures in late medieval England), leading to the birth of capitalism, and this became a rush in that same direction.”
    If we’re going by historical fact, how does the explosion of China fit into the birth of capitalism? Not to mention so many other, though not global collapsed civilizations from overshoot that weren’t capitalistic?”

    What “explosion of China”? Whatever was going on with China in the late medieval period had zip to do with The Enclosures in England. And there were no global civilizations prior to China. Do you mean Rome? Never dominated more than about half of Europe, the western part of the Middle East, and North Africa. And most certainly did not have a growth IMPERATIVE, i.e. grow or die.

    ulvfugl Says:
    May 2nd, 2013 at 5:59 pm
    “@ Jeff S.
    “TPTB will solve nothing. They cannot control the collapse, in fact they cannot even control their own global economic structure, which they don’t fully understand to begin with..”
    “True. And too easy and simple to blame TPTB anyway. Who voted for Bush/Cheney twice ? Obama twice ? Whoever they are, they’ve got what they wanted. And just about everyone in USA is part of the 1% compared with the 99% of the 7 billion.

    Eh? Bush/Cheney, Obama, are NOT TPTB. You don’t vote for TPTB. And no, the idea that just about everyone in the US is part of the global 1% is ridiculous. Besides. such comparison games amount to nothing more than telling the vast majority of Americans that they shouldn’t complain about eating s*%t since most people in the world eat the stuff in liquid form.

    Kathy C Says:
    May 2nd, 2013 at 5:06 pm
    “@ Jeff “The idea that we’re predisposed towards overpopulation, as well as to violence, competition,… is belied by historical facts. Sorry, but there is such a thing, and the vast majority of human history totally contradicts such notions.”
    I suggest you get Craig Dilworth’s book Too Smart for our Own Good, which will disabuse you of your false notion rather quickly. We like other critters push against the limits and unless we are limited by some other critter we will push until we run out of resources.
    You might also read this article THE INTRODUCTION, INCREASE,
    AND CRASH OF REINDEER ON ST. MATTHEW ISLAND
    By David R. Klein http://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/nats104/00lect21reindeer.html about another species that has a population that normally doesn’t overrun its resource base, but did when introduced to an island with no predators.
    We humans increase in population every time we found a new technology to extract resource (from fire on up) and every time we found new lands to live on.”

    And i suggest you read work by anthropologists, since this is about HUMANS, not reindeer. Stuff like “Society Against the State” by Pierre Clastres, a bunch of stuff by Richard Lee, and Marshal Sahlins. One book by Craig Dilworth does not outdo them. Human population has been far more marked by periods of stability than of rapid increases. The last several hundred years have been an aberration, and not by accident coinciding with the one human social form of organization that’s ever been known which has a growth IMPERATIVE. Capitalism is the only society which requires growth for its very survival.

  • Tony Weddle Says:

    Could the person living a simple life even live that life without civilization? If not, then he should feel guilty that he’s supporting a system that is dragging down all life on the planet.

    Now we’re getting somewhere. All I’m trying figure out is how guilty various people should feel. You say that a person who decides to live a simple life and has decided to live within some limits is guilty. Agreed. Now, lets move on to the person who has a 400 foot yacht and still wants another. Such a person’s consumption is “dragging down all life on the planet” at a rate that is several thousand times more than the frugal person who you said was guilty. Why didn’t you say anything about how much guilt that person should feel? How much more guilt should that person feel?

  • @ Daniel

    Eh? Bush/Cheney, Obama, are NOT TPTB. You don’t vote for TPTB. And no, the idea that just about everyone in the US is part of the global 1% is ridiculous.

    I believe the cut off line is somewhere around $30,000 p.a. income.

  • Ulvfugl wrote: first to Gail,(1) then to Kathy C and Gail(2):

    1.”I give up, Gail. You’re in Humpty Dumpty Land where words mean whatever you say they mean.”

    2.”Neither of you ‘believe in’ a soul or a spirit or any such thing, you see existence as purely material, and you both show little patience with anyone who expresses any other view.”

    This is now off topic, but in defence of myself, I have been accused by ulvfugl of residing in a similar La-La-Land, or some such silly named ‘place’.

    I gotta say, this is very selective.

    Because they are materialistic, or think scientifically, now ulvfugl is accusing Kathy C and Gail, of rejecting a concept of a human soul, or having a spiritual essence(still poorly defined).

    But this said ‘soul’ has miraculous powers, gee what may they be I wonder ?:

    ” I use the term soul as in subtle body, and the term spirit as in chi or ki, as demonstrated in this video. To suggest that this force is imaginary, or a product of imagination, is just silly. You can kill people with this force, you can also heal people with this force.”

    Well blow me down, if it aint just the kind of agency we might need, were it utilised by a God-man in synchronicity with participating, ego surrendered humans.

    I seem to remember being ulvfugl-policed on matters very materialistic like the atmospheric data, the temperature, the ice sheet melting dynamics – all scientifically quantifiable.

    Now those bits of the world are, or are not subject to this Ki or Chi or spirit, or whatever ulvfugl calls it – or not. Obviously living things can be, why they can be killed or healed with this ‘force’.

    So I ask you all, everyone regular or not, does it follow now that ulvfugl has spoken on this matter we can say that it is possible science has only a bit of the real picture.

    At least ulvfugl could apologise to me, unreservedly for his poor characterising of my views, and me personally.

    This is good news, now we can ‘heal’ the planet – which is kind of what I was suggesting may be possible – but no, oh no, that was just not good enough for ulvfugl – it was completely loony, so unscientific in how it conceived the hard data of the biosphere.

    Now watch the hair spitting, obfuscation, or if an apology is too difficult, just the silence.

    But along with the apology, I will need a well defined ‘terms of use and activity statement’ concerning just how this said ‘soul’ or ‘Chi’ interacts with this material world. Short of that it is pretty clear Ulvfugl is:

    “…show(ing) little patience with anyone who expresses any other view.” My parenthesis.

    Ho Hum.

    Speak Softly:

    You wrote about the guy who gave up studying to be a Marine Biologist, who chose Psychology.

    IMO he went from the great oceans to the off into the abyss !!

    oldgrowthforest

    You wrote:

    “But thanks, you’ve resolved my ambivalence regarding participating in this forum. I don’t need to be here and participate.”

    Please don’t go…

    We need our old-growth-forest !!!

    (This is just glove-boxing, and gets you a slightly thicker skin, which all spiritual beings having a material experience need, up to Rhino-hide smoothness, to get through this life.
    Spiritual – rough as gut on the outside, smooth on the inside.

    {Robin Datta will pick this apart like a Pakistani Vulture, ( I have witnessed Pakistani Vultures up close, and that is how I describe Robin Datta’s merciless attention to detail – all very cool IMO, not that that matters).}

    Ripley asks Tony Weddle:

    “Could the person living a simple life even live that life without civilization?”

    If you give me a few more years I will get back to all here on that.

    Guy, do we have a few years ?

  • @ Ozman

    Incoherent nonsense that has no connection to anything I have ever actually said.

    Are you not familiar with the famous rhyme re Humpty Dumpty and the definition of words ?

    ( I was speaking to Gail, re the definition of the word ‘meaning’ ).

    It has nothing to do with living in Lalaland, which refers to someone living in fantasy, such as yourself, who gives dreams priority over empirical reality.

    Materialism is not the same thing, as thinking scientifically.

    I have never mentioned ‘miraculous’ powers.

    At least ulvfugl could apologise to me, unreservedly for his poor characterising of my views, and me personally.

    I consider you to be completely confused and deluded. You have no understanding of science in general, climate science in particular.

    You imagine that, because there are anomalous phenomena, that science cannot, as yet, account for, that somehow that negates what science can account for. I consider that position totally preposterous.

    So, no you are not going to get any apology. What’s more I consider you craven, because you boasted about your ability to ‘debunk science’ and when given the opportunity to do so, what happened ? You couldn’t even defend yourself.

  • I would like to draw attention to the excellent point that Ripley made, in the previous thread, and to Carol’s response, ( which I had missed, came in after Daniel’s post .
    Show’s Joe Romm on a new light for me, anyway ). Check it out. Thanks, Carol.

    Three audio interviews

  • @Robin

    I wrote But once you dispense with that you are free to figure out what you might do that will be helpful.

    You wrote “Helpful” – to oneself, and/or to one’s DNA?

    What I meant is that if you realize that you are doing it for you, what point in doing something that is not truly helpful. How can your self image be improved by doing for someone what you think they need, rather than doing for someone what they need. When I volunteered at Habitat in the early days and the construction volunteers were given more latitude, some would put carpet in the homes they built because they couldn’t imagine a house being OK without carpet. They never bothered to find out if the family had or could afford a vacuum cleaner. That is the kind of thing I am talking about.

  • Meanwhile back in the atmosphere

    There is no planet B

    On the 29 April, 2013, NOAA recorded a CO2 level of 399.50 ppm, while some readings in April 2013 exceeded 400 ppm (Figures 1, 2 and 3, from: http://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/), signifying a return to atmosphere conditions of the Pliocene (5.2 – 2.6 million years ago).

    https://arctic-news.blogspot.ca/2013/05/no-planet-b.html

  • Re Romm: He is exhibit one in a case of contradictions, For example he writes the following…

    “Whether the “transformation” we are stuck with is “hell” is a matter of semantics, I suppose, but if hell is a metaphor for the worst place imaginable, then, no, not even close. What we are stuck with is more like “planetary purgatory” — a desperate, all-consuming effort lasting decades to keep us out of hell (and high water).”
    https://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/05/01/1931491/ny-times-criticizes-itself-for-touting-myth-that-it-is-too-late-to-avoid-climate-catastrophe/

    Oh yeah right, we are not going to see “hell’ but just drift indefinitely in a purgatory (as though bad conditions will just stabilize themselves). That is some strong hopium he is smoking!

  • As though they don’t already know (amazing how many of my friends now admit to being led to complacency with years of climate-environment pseudoscience)

    WHITEHOUSE WARNED ON IMMINENT ARCTIC DEATH SPIRAL
    National security officials worried by rapid loss of Arctic summer sea ice overlook threat of permanent global food shortages

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/may/02/white-house-arctic-ice-death-spiral

  • Good morning everyone:

    field notes from the on-going military/police state
    http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/05/02/with-bradburys-appendix-m-opinion-and-7th-circuit-vance-decision-the-government-can-torture-any-of-us/#more-35072

    (ends with)
    That is, the 7th Circuit opinion holds that Rummy specifically, and anyone who comes after him, is immune from suit for violating someone’s constitutional rights, up to and including illegal detention and torture. As Steve Vladeck and James Pfander said in an amicus brief on this case to SCOTUS,

    The Seventh Circuit’s decision in this case contravenes nearly 300 years of established tradition, this Court’s well-settled precedents, and the United States’ international obligations under the CAT. Operating under the assumption that it was being asked to “create” a new cause of action, the en banc majority took the unprecedented step of conferring, in effect, absolute immunity from liability on U.S. officials who torture citizens abroad.

    The opinion is bad enough. Now add in Bradbury’s still extant memo, which permits DOD to stick whatever torture techniques they want in Appendix M and have his sanction for it. The two together allow the government to continue to engage in torture with, as Vladeck puts it, absolute immunity, so long as it happens overseas.

    [The last clause will soon disappear, like Bostons privacy rights a few weeks ago. – my comment]

    and, from The Daily Mail:

    ‘Killer robots should not have power to destroy human life’:
    U.N. report warns Britain and U.S have semi-autonomous machines
    The report written for U.N. Human Rights Commission

    Experts call for worldwide moratorium on the use of killer robots
    Said Britain, the U.S., Israel, South Korea and Japan have developed various types of fully or semi-autonomous weapons

    Killer robots that can attack targets without any human input ‘should not have the power of life and death over human beings,’ a new draft U.N. report says.
    The report for the U.N. Human Rights Commission this week has called for a worldwide moratorium on the use of killer robots until an international conference can develop rules for their use.

    According to the report, the United States, Britain, Israel, South Korea and Japan have developed various types of fully or semi-autonomous weapons.

    The U.N. Human Rights Commission deals with legal and philosophical issues involved in giving robots lethal powers over humans, echoing countless science-fiction novels and films.

    Report author Christof Heyns, a South African professor of human rights law, focuses on a new generation of weapons that choose their targets and execute them.

    He calls them ‘lethal autonomous robotics,’ or LARs for short, and says: ‘Decisions over life and death in armed conflict may require compassion and intuition.

    ‘Humans – while they are fallible – at least might possess these qualities, whereas robots definitely do not.’
    He notes the arguments of robot proponents that death-dealing autonomous weapons ‘will not be susceptible to some of the human shortcomings that may undermine the protection of life.

    ‘Typically they would not act out of revenge, panic, anger, spite, prejudice or fear. Moreover, unless specifically programmed to do so, robots would not cause intentional suffering on civilian populations, for example through torture. Robots also do not rape.’

    His findings are due to be debated at the Human Rights Council in Geneva on May 29.
    The report goes beyond the recent debate over drone killings of al-Qaida suspects and nearby civilians who are maimed or killed in the air strikes.

    Drones do have human oversight. The killer robots are programmed to make autonomous decisions on the spot without orders from humans.
    Heyns’ report notes the increasing use of drones, which ‘enable those who control lethal force not to be physically present when it is deployed, but rather to activate it while sitting behind computers in faraway places, and stay out of the line of fire.
    ‘Lethal autonomous robotics, if added to the arsenals of States, would add a new dimension to this distancing, in that targeting decisions could be taken by the robots themselves. In addition to being physically removed from the kinetic action, humans would also become more detached from decisions to kill – and their execution,’ he wrote.

    The report says the U.S’s Phlanx system for Aegis-class cruisers could fall into the category as it automatically detects, tracks and engages anti-air warfare threats such as anti-ship missiles and aircraft.

    Other examples include Israel’s Harpy, a ‘Fire-and-Forget’ autonomous weapon system designed to detect, attack and destroy radar emitters.
    Britain’s Taranis jet-propelled combat drone prototype also can autonomously search, identify and locate enemies but can only engage with a target when authorized by mission command. It also can defend itself against enemy aircraft.
    The Samsung Techwin surveillance and security guard robots, deployed in the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea, detects targets through infrared sensors.

    They are currently operated by humans but have an ‘automatic mode.’

    Current weapons systems are supposed to have some degree of human oversight.

    But Heyns notes that ‘the power to override may in reality be limited because the decision-making processes of robots are often measured in nanoseconds and the informational basis of those decisions may not be practically accessible to the supervisor.

    ‘In such circumstances humans are de facto out of the loop and the machines thus effectively constitute LARs,’ or killer robots.
    Separately, another U.N. expert, British lawyer Ben Emmerson, is preparing a special investigation for the U.N. General Assembly this year on drone warfare and targeted killings.
    His probe was requested by Pakistan, which officially opposes the use of U.S. drones on its territory as an infringement on its sovereignty but is believed to have tacitly approved some strikes in the past.

    Pakistani officials say the drone strikes kill many innocent civilians, which the U.S. has rejected.

    The other two countries requesting the investigation were two permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, Russia and China.
    In April, an alliance of activist and humanitarian groups led by Human Rights Watch launched the ‘Campaign to Stop Killer Robots’ to push for a ban on fully autonomous weapons. The group applauded Heyns’ draft report in a statement on its web site.

  • I feel very badly that oldgrowthforest is discouraged from participating, especially because there’s nothing I love more than a old growth forest. But I do not think she is accurately reflecting the opinions put forth and so I will respond to them. She said:

    “Some people feel or see spiritual beings, just like most of us see color, but color blind people do not.”

    She says she feels “put off” and yet it is she who describes people who don’t see or feel what she does as “blind”. I don’t recall any derogatory labeling, anywhere, of people who believe in spirituality. Personally, I don’t subscribe to it, but I sincerely don’t remember disparaging anyone who does.

    She said:

    “I am deeply put off by comments that lump religion as being no more than the Crusades or the Inquisition. If we do that, then please, let us lump all the nuclear war and technology with all science. Some of the biases against the values of traditional people including spirituality, who by the way, are the only people who have ever been capable of leaving a decent environment, are very painful for me to read.”

    Again, where has anyone lumped religion as being no more than the Crusades or the Inquisition? I don’t have any recollection of any mention of those events, let alone reducing all religion to such episodes. When she says that people who have the “values of traditional people…are THE ONLY PEOPLE who have ever been capable of leaving a decent environment” – I can only take that to imply that people like me, who are atheist, are INcapable of being environmentally decent.

    “I didn’t so much want to talk about spiritual things as I am very uncomfortable with some of the comments I have read here regarding religion and spirituality, and it causes me not to want to talk about anything at all, anymore than if people here were making derogatory comments about other kinds of groups of people.”

    It seems the derogatory comments towards other kinds of groups of people so far have come from oldgrowthforest and not the other way around. I actually understand that the notion that spirituality is a fabrication of the human mind is “uncomfortable” because I was “uncomfortable” with it myself for quite a while. I just eventually came around to realize that there is no evidence for it (by which I mean scientific evidence, not someone’s subjective feelings or experiences). Isn’t this blog based on the scientific evidence of NTE, which makes even many expert scientists so emotionally uncomfortable they dismiss it?

    “Does it really have to be pointed out that ‘religious’ people are just like everyone else and some of them are really very good people who derive a lot of strength and wisdom from their understandings and are deeply decent to all the people around them?”

    No, it doesn’t, and I can’t find any place where it was suggested that “religious” people are bad, or aren’t deeply decent etc.

    “I have known such people. And that many if not most of them are ordinary idiots, hairless monkeys, and some of them are psychopaths masquerading as pious? That they are just like races, or nationalities, or ages of people, or certain professions, and comments that lump all things religious or spiritual together, that hold up the worst and call it “all” look a lot like comments that bash any other group?”

    I honestly think that Oldgrowthforest has reacted to opinions that spirituality doesn’t exist by conflating that with all sorts of accusations that were never made or intended, in effect raising the spectre of prejudice as a straw man in order to defend her faith, which in effect puts an undeserved onus on atheists to not discuss their views which conflict with hers.

  • @ Gail

    I think your position is untenable, Gail. You base it upon the concept of ‘imagination’, which is in no way scientific.

    There is vast amount of scientific evidence for how meditation changes the brain, structurally and functionally, and how it has all kinds of beneficial effects, physiologically, emotionally, and so forth.

    You ( and Kathy C. and anyone else ) are of course, completely entitled to your view, and nobody should deny you your right to hold a materialist, or physicalist, or atheist position. It’s a respectable and reasonable position to hold. But there are OTHER positions that are every bit as valid, and this is what needs to be established here, isn’t it ?

    Imho, everybody should be entitled to explain their position, and why they hold it, but NOBODY is entitled to try and evangelise and convert other people. That’s an entirely different matter. Like trying to recruit for a political party.

    From my personal perspective, as from e.g. Einstein’s, and many other figures I could name, there is no conflict between science and spirituality..

  • This H5N9 thing is troubling too:

    http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/new-h7n9-bird-flu-poses-serious-threat-to-world-scientists-say/

    May 2, 2013 – HEALTH – A new strain of bird flu that is causing a deadly outbreak among people in China is a threat to world health and should be taken seriously, scientists said on Wednesday. The H7N9 strain has killed 24 people and infected more than 125, according to the Geneva-based World Health Organization (WHO), which has described it as “one of the most lethal” flu viruses. The high mortality rate, together with relatively large numbers of cases in a short period and the possibility it might acquire the ability to transmit between people, make H7N9 a pandemic risk, experts said. “The WHO considers this a serious threat,” said John McCauley, director of the WHO Collaborating Centre for Influenza at Britain’s National Institute for Medical Research. Speaking at a briefing in London, experts in virology said initial studies suggest the virus has several worrisome characteristics, including two genetic mutations that make it more likely to eventually spread from person to person. “The longer the virus is unchecked in circulation, the higher the probability that this virus will start transmitting from person to person,” Colin Butte, an expert in avian viruses at Britain’s Pirbright Institute, said. Of the some 125 people infected with H7N9 so far, around 20 percent have died, approximately 20 percent have recovered and the remainder are still sick. The infection can lead to severe pneumonia, blood poisoning and organ failure. “This is a very, very serious disease in those who have been infected. So if this were to become more widespread it would be an extraordinarily devastating outbreak,” Peter Openshaw, director of the center for respiratory infection at Imperial College London, told the briefing. Scientists who have analyzed genetic sequence data from samples from three H7N9 victims say the strain is a so-called “triple reassortant” virus with a mixture of genes from three other flu strains found in birds in Asia. Recent pandemic viruses, including the H1N1 “swine flu” of 2009/2010, have been mixtures of mammal and bird flu – hybrids that are likely to be milder because mammalian flu tends to make people less severely ill than bird flu. Pure bird-flu strains, such as the new H7N9 strain and the H5N1 flu, which has killed about 371 of 622 the people it has infected since 2003, are generally more deadly for people. Human cases of the H7N9 flu have been found in several new parts of China in recent days and have now been recorded in all of its provinces. Last week a man in Taiwan became the first case of the flu outside mainland China, though he was infected while travelling there. The H7N9 strain was unknown in humans until it was identified in sick people in China in March. Scientists say it is jumping from birds – most probably chickens – to people, and there is no evidence yet of the virus passing from person to person. Jeremy Farrar, a leading expert on infectious diseases and director of Oxford University’s research unit in Vietnam, said the age range of those infected so far stretched from toddlers to people in their late 80s – a range that appeared to confirm the virus is completely new to the human population. “That suggests there truly is no immunity across all ages, and that as humans we have not seen this virus before,” he said. “The response has to be calm and measured, but it cannot be taken lightly,” he said. –Reuters

  • The two post rule should NOT be lifted!

    It solved two problems:

    1) The hateful condescending attacks.

    2) The dominance of the conversation by one person.

  • You know, things were going so well here – why lift the 2 post rule? I mean, seriously, the whole thing turns to shit when U starts spewing his garbage unchecked.

    Please reinstate the 2 post rule, please.

  • I am in favor of maintaining the two post rule.

    I am not interested in discussing UFOs, crop circles, religion, the nature of being, or any of that stuff.

    There are some REALLY good posters on this blog – but, when U starts his schtick, they all go into hiding or they get lost in his deluge of posts.

    Isn’t it proof positive enough that the blog has been so awesome lately and then, when the 2 post a day rule is lifted, it turns into garbage in 12 hours?

    @B9K9: At least we are beginning to see a consensus here on NBL as to the situation and the potential scenarios for how NTE will unfold, I think you sum it up well:

    1. group consensus – **first gain acceptance**, then draw straws
    2. imposed solution – the PTB secret sauce
    3. chaos – everyone out for themselves

    Each of these three potential scenarios has a probability.

  • Hahaha. Just as with beauty, condescension, garbage, meaning, etc, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Look at the wannabee moderators, lusting for control and putting out insults. Put the rule back, if Daniel wants and Guy wants. I don’t care either way.

  • I guess I will quit shouting my Mantra: “There is a solution, we need 90% of the population to die but first they need to help dismantle the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization.” No use shouting it here! Also, it won’t be implemented and we are destined to spiral into chaos because even TPTB can’t control the collapse.

    Okay, so, it seems we have a consensus: we are going to spiral into chaos and the grid is going down and the nuclear power plants are going to go Fukushima and we will be living in Mad Max Zombie Apocalypse…

    When I first found NBL, that was not the consensus I was looking for!

    Anyway, so now what? Before I found NBL, I was a prepper, now I’m a doomer. But, when I was a prepper, I found websites discussing Response # 4 Shield and Defend. The best one I found with the most comprehensive plan was for like minded individuals to find a small rural community they could start infiltrating (in US) by taking over the local govt and start working their way up. Get elected to city council, school board, whatever, have several of your group join the police force, sheriff, etc. Keep importing more and more like minded individuals and convert the locals as best as you can. Hopefully the community has a local National Guard armory that you can overthrow when SHTF. Of course, many logistical and physical requirements to the location you select – easy to defend, clean water, able to grow food. I find it ironic that I’m back to thinking about this – I had really thought that NBL was going to lead me somewhere else… oh well.

  • I agree on putting the two post rule back. More people posted, and for whatever reason the conversation was more civil.

    But while it is lifted :)
    Interesting podcast on how Canadian power plants are different and what specific dangers they pose.
    http://fairewinds.com/content/nuclear-contamination-knows-no-borders

  • The crazy man walking down the city street holding a sign that reads “The end is near” might just have a point.

    A team of mathematicians, philosophers and scientists at Oxford University’s Future of Humanity Institute say there is ever-increasing evidence that the human race’s reliance on technology could, in fact, lead to its demise.

    The group has a forthcoming paper entitled “Existential Risk Prevention as Global Priority,” arguing that we face a real risk to our own existence. And not a slow demise in some distant, theoretical future. The end could come as soon as the next century.

  • I have been to U’s blog. it is U talking to U about U. there is no other people, it’s a dead blog.

  • Tom, thanks! With our limericks, we can save the world! :D
    ==

    Bailey Says: WHITEHOUSE WARNED ON IMMINENT ARCTIC DEATH SPIRAL

    Dear Landlord

    You think you’ll be one of the few
    In some faraway hideout HQ;
    Despite your conniving,
    No one’s surviving,
    So you’re going to be fucked too.

  • ulvfugl wrote:

    “…someone living in fantasy, such as yourself, who gives dreams priority over empirical reality.”

    Can you point to any actual Empirical Reality ? Where is it? What is it? When is it?
    Simple questions. But ulvfugl cannot answer any of this, no one can. Einstein’s revelation of relativity, which thankfully he shared with everyone, puts the stoppers on any ‘Empirical Reality’.

    Can you name and describe any empirical reality, actually, really. Try to do it, without reference to any other defining sub-atomic particle, which just seem to get smaller and then coming into being and going out of being, slowing down to the speed of light, then manifesting. What a joke, only a child like Polonius in Hamlet can give this jibber some credibility.
    Where wold this empirical reality actually reside, where exactly. Somewhere in and expanding gravitational post big bang field – oh and a theoretical maybe ‘expanding gravitational post big bang field’. And lets speak about where we really are in relation to an absolute stationary positional coordinate in some bigger than my arse cosmic envelop of gravitonic flux particles. You see, it is all complex child stories, just to satisfy the very smart minds that are trying very hard to understand their tiny place in this big sausage.

    Ask those simple questions and you will realise it is all only coherent in the local field of experience. Scientific empirical reality.

    Now acknowledging this, as Sheldrake does, does not imply that one therefore believe that one can just surf the line of will induced make believe.

    Far from it.

    The apple still falls.

    But the value of letting go of this childhood story of science proving or describing an Empirical Reality, is you can get to look for what is going on, in reality.

    You might like to check out Rupert Sheldrake’s take on the so called Empirical Reality’ and the presumptions of ‘Science’.

    ‘Banned TED Talk: Rupert Sheldrake – The Science Delusion’

    http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/04/10/banned-ted-talk-rupert-sheldrake-the-science-delusion/

    “Rupert Sheldrake outlines 10 dogmas he has found to exist within mainstream science today. He states that when you look at each of these scientifically, you see that they are not actually true.

    1. Nature is mechanical or machine like

    2. All matter is unconscious

    3. The laws or constants of nature are fixed

    4. The total amount of matter and energy is always the same

    5. Nature is purposeless

    6. Biological heredity is material

    7. Memories are stored inside your brain

    8. Your mind is inside your head

    9. Psychic phenomena like telepathy is not possible

    10. Mechanistic medicine is the only kind that works”

    We have a term down here for people who can’t accept that a lot of mature intelligent human understanding releases you from ‘prejudice’ and ‘certainty’. Its a good word to use when someone, even very intelligent, accuses one of:

    ” living in Lalaland, which refers to someone living in fantasy, such as yourself, who gives dreams priority over empirical reality.”

    I wont use this word here because that would be uncivil. Fill in your own rough guess.

    Debunking scientific ’empirical reality’ was rather simple, as we can see.

    To recap. Scientific explanations of ‘Empirical Reality’ are only theoretical. They ‘seem’ to be correctly describing events in ‘the local field’, nowhere else – big or small. This is how stories work, in the situation where the story takes place is defined well, but before or after is less clear and less well understood. That does not mean the story is not coherent in the moments it takes place, nor is ‘true’.

    Good luck with living in a theoretical empirical reality.

    It sort of “refers to someone living in fantasy”.

    For the record, I do not give preference to dreams ‘over’ local field situational awareness – what ulvfugl seems to call Empirical Reality.

    I merely note that a shit load of those dreams have come true year, even decades later. That seems pretty empirical, to me. Not repeatable in an experimental situation, mind you, so no Scientific banana, but still does not make it ‘unreal’.

    ulvfugl, you might like to try this children’s book,

    ‘Vegetable Surrender or Happiness Is Not Blue’

    http://www.dawnhorsepress.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PID=42

    “A humorous and instructive story written by Adi Da Samraj for young children…

    Onion One-Yin and his vegetable friends embark on a search for someone who can help them solve their problems—and discover the secret of how to be happy, right now! Illustrated with black and white line drawings.”

    Or if you want a thorough, rigorous debunking of science and Empirical Reality, then why not try this CD, titled:

    ‘The Asana of Science’

    http://www.dawnhorsepress.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PID=2390

    “In this recording from 1980, Avatar Adi Da Samraj speaks about the false presumptions upon which the conventional scientific point of view is based….
    Avatar Adi Da goes on to describe our inherent participation in Reality, and calls us to understand the limitations of present and traditional dogmas by observing and considering our condition as a whole.
    ‘The mere external, or objective, physical world—which is only a conventional notion, anyway—is a fraction of the total Condition of which you are directly aware in every moment. The physical universe, which science wants to investigate, itself represents only a portion, one dimension, of a much wider, broader scale of dimensions in which you participate.’ – Avatar Adi Da Samraj”

    Or

    I can heartily recommend:

    ‘The Transmission of Doubt’

    http://www.dawnhorsepress.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PID=2274

    “Talks and Essays on the Transcendence of Scientific Materialism through Radical Understanding…
    This book presents a “radical” alternative to scientific materialism, the ideology of our time. Adi Da Samraj Calls us to understand and transcend the materialist dogmas and “objective” stance of conventional scientific philosophy. He Calls us to awaken to all the dimensions of existence—not just the material dimension—in which we are living participants. And finally, He Calls us to find the Heart-position of ego-transcending love, or non-separateness in relation to all that exists.”

    I would offer you my copy but I think I will reread it now.

    Happy listening/reading ulvfugl.

    Robin Datta

    I only named the said ‘Pakistani Vultures’ as Pakistani, because that was where I encountered them. I didn’t intend to imply they were themselves identifying as Pakistani. Indeed they looked, and acted exactly the same as the ones I encountered in India, some 10 miles further along my travels.

    Pat

    Your last comments are very good to hear. Please let it all go. Just be human, live who you are, without all the conceptions of future , or no future. I find everyone is very much ore interesting if we see their humanity, not their script. Brings a few social awkward moments, but it is still great to grow beyond the expectations of ego we all may carry.

    This NTE is the ultimate insult to Ego. but we are far more, or not really our ego. There are not many people to commune about NTE and its implications. It is a journey, and it is also a kind of universal wake up call, to literally wake up to ourselves and to the moment.

    You are gong to die. What are you going to ‘do’ ‘now’.(I mean well)

    SillySam

    You write:

    “I have been to U’s blog. it is U talking to U about U. there is no other people, it’s a dead blog.”

    I found the stuff there really interesting. I haven’t gone through all of it but ulvfugl has a great variety of interests, and he is pretty up to date with current events. Dead or not, it is still his offering to others, and I honour that with respect.

  • pat Says:
    May 3rd, 2013 at 6:04 am
    “The two post rule should NOT be lifted!
    It solved two problems:
    1) The hateful condescending attacks.
    2) The dominance of the conversation by one person.”

    RIGHT ON!! I will continue to limit myself voluntarily to two daily posts.

    Regarding Dilworth: For all the claimed inherent drive in us to develop technology to overcome all environmental limits, the vast majority of human history took place with the species as hunters-gatherers, living in relative stability with their surroundings. Even the societies which developed agriculture, mass irrigation,.. did not feature a growth imperative. They grew when it was opportune, but ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Macedonia, even Rome, were not subject to a growth *imperative*, grow or die. These societies in fact came upon many technologies, such as steam power, but did not pursue its development, as they had no need to, nothing pushing them to develop productivity as fast as possible. The vast majority of their populations consisted of subsistence farmers. That population was not dependent upon an integrated production system for its survival needs. In fact, only one society ever broke that mold. And that is capitalism. Out of he entire world, only one social system, innovated in rural England in the late medieval period, ever did that, and it grew to encompass the entire world, precisely because it had a growth imperative. It did develop further technologies that already existed, in order to boost productivity in agriculture, due to a competition imperative, leading to the rapid development of industry, thus the industrial revolution. It had to take over the world in order to continue to exist. It had to destroy the global ecosystem in order to continue. And it will kill us and all other living forms, in order to continue to exist. http://www.monthlyreview.org/798wood.htm

    The fact that this has been a feature of only one of the many societies humans have formed over the 200,000 years of our history calls into serious question the notion that a need to expand and grow beyond all limits is in our genes.

  • Roger

    1. group consensus – **first gain acceptance**, then draw straws
    2. imposed solution – the PTB secret sauce
    3. chaos – everyone out for themselves”

    Probably find all three can operate at the same time.

    ulvfugl writes again:

    “I don’t care…”

    When the issue is showing feelings about participating equally in a group situation, this sums it up very well.

  • Yes, two posts is enough, IMO.

  • @Jeff S. Says “Even the societies which developed agriculture, mass irrigation,.. did not feature a growth imperative. They grew when it was opportune, but ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, Macedonia, even Rome, were not subject to a growth *imperative*, grow or die.”

    General question to older/apostate activists: do you wince when you see this kind of reflection of your younger selves? Do you now realize how naive you appeared to those in agreement with your ideals, and how foolish you seemed to those who simply snickered @ your puny efforts? (For the record, green-horn ‘entrepreneurs’ elicit the same shameful regret. LOL)

    Jeff, I can tell nothing anyone says to you is going to make a difference, so I will reply to the audience @ large. I’ve always found the Bible, while literally a farce, is a fount of wisdom that speaks across the ages with respect to common, every day challenges that have always existed.

    For those who deny that all species, including man, are driven to pursue their genetic imperative of growth & expansion, then why is good ‘ole #10 of the “Ten Commandants” rendered as:

    “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. — Exodus 20:17 (NIV)”

    What exactly do you think doG is referring to? If everyone and everything was in harmony, why issue such as admonition? The answer is it isn’t capitalists, it isn’t modern consumer society (Jeez-louise, what common artifacts are usually dug up in arch sites – in fact, what do birds like to ‘steal’ – shiny trinkets/jewelry anyone?), it’s US.

    Ultimately, the left/right divide is split between those who would attempt to mitigate this self-destructive drive, while others accept it as is and aim to exploit the tendency to advance their own comfort. But to deny it even exists is a whole different level, perhaps one that requires time to gain an understanding.

  • First time poster, long time reader. Please keep the 2-post-per-day rule in force. Sometimes people need rules to remain civil.

  • Agree, two post rule worked better.
    ==

    Becky Says: Sometimes people need rules to remain civil.

    Civil rules from a chief or a czar
    Replaced punishment leaving a scar,
    Like when we were monkeys
    (Dumb happiness junkies)—
    Oh wait—that’s right, we still are.

  • JM Greer has a new post up, called The Shape of Time in which he argues that we fail to see our situation clearly because we are “time-blind”, accustomed to our present conditions and as a result are blind to the lessons of history. Typical Greer. However, it occurred to me as I read Greer’s blog that there are a number of interacting forms of blindness that humans suffer from, all of which interact to make us collectively incapable of recognizing or dealing with the unfolding crisis.

    The first blindness is the one Greer discusses – that we rapidly grow accustomed to any condition that persists for a long time, especially if it lasts much longer than a single human lifetime. Because it’s all we have experienced, we see it as axiomatic, as a “state” rather than a process. We have become accustomed to technological progress and social growth, for example, seeing it as the natural and inevitable outcome of human nature.

    The second is our blindness to distant, abstract risks. We have a very steep discount function with respect to risk, that has to do with our evolved neural circuitry. On the savanna we were much more motivated to avoid the lion that was stalking us right now than we were to avoid the eventual demise of our community in 10 years as the local water hole dried up. This article discusses the issue in reference to climate change inaction.

    The third is our blindness to the operation of the second law of thermodynamics, and our role in carrying out its mandate. When energy enters an open system and is transformed, part becomes exergy (useful work) and part becomes entropy (waste heat). The exergy drives increasing levels of structure and organization, while the entropy disorders the larger environment that contains the system.

    Because we are embedded in the open system of human culture, we pay attention only to the exergy/ordering side of the equation, and are blind to the entropy/disorder that increases simultaneously. We are happy to see the exergy increase, but our (largely exclusive) focus on that aspect of the situation is what permits us to carry out the larger mandate of the second law without any serious existential concern.

    Human culture is as much a dissipative structure as are human beings, or any other animal, plant, hurricane, tornado or galaxy. As such our prime directive is to break down all actual and potential energy gradients in the system as fast as possible, in order to achieve the end result of thermodynamic equilibrium. As a result we see human activity, numbers and organization as Good Things, and are loathe to reverse course on any of them. We are blind to the entropic consequences because we are embedded within the constructive processes that create those destructive consequences.

    Because 2LoT is inherently a balanced law, the only way to reduce entropy creation is to reduce the activities that create it. that means reducing all the creative, expansionary activities that we have come to define as the meaning of being human. It’s not just a good idea, it’s the law…

    In order to alter the human trajectory, it seems to me that we need to address all three of these forms of blindness. The only thing that will cause most people to break out of their “bubble of acclimatisation” is a radical, undeniable, negative, externally sourced change in the situation. Can we empower some part of our society to enforce such a change on behalf of all of us? Will some other part of society (TPTB?) take on the job unilaterally? If neither of these questions can be answered in the affirmative, the only thing that will wake us up is the sound and smell of the shit hitting the fan.

    I smell something disgusting. I wonder what it could possibly be?

  • The problem of the putter off lies entirely with the putter off; the problem of the putting off lies entirely with the putting off, the problem of the put off lies entirely with the put off. The same goes for any other interaction, whether problematic or otherwise, such as the murderer, the murder, and the murdered, or the benefactor, the beneficence, and the benefited.

    That is the triad in the realm of awareness with content (awareness filled with objects of awareness) – the experiencer, the experiencing and the experience, the doer, the doing and the deed.

    One of the traditions about the trident of Shiva (the god of dissolution) has it that the trident is used to destroy this triad, transcending which one resides in realisation: awareness of awareness sans content, the Void/Sunyata/Ein Sof.

    OzMan: Kin of
    Jatayu, perhaps, but nothing to do with the Islamic Republic.

  • Certainly don’t mean to clog up the blog, but i thought this was interesting enough to share:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/appalling-irresponsibility-senior-scientists-attack-chinese-researchers-for-creating-new-strains-of-influenza-virus-in-veterinary-laboratory-8601658.html

    ‘Appalling irresponsibility’: Senior scientists attack Chinese researchers for creating new strains of influenza virus in veterinary laboratory

    Experts warn of danger that the new viral strains created by mixing bird-flu virus with human influenza could escape from the laboratory to cause a global pandemic killing millions of people.

    So it isn’t just the “natural” viruses we have to fear now – we’re making our own! Bwah-haaaaaa-haaaaaaaaaa-haaaaaaa! Oh that’s rich . . . i mean how stupid can we be? For all our so-called “big brains” i think we missed the boat.

    It isn’t surprising that we’re ending up like this – basically at each other’s throats to “live another day.” Well, with all the trees dying i say you can KEEP IT! i don’t want to be on this rock any longer than i must. Whole effin’ life has been a prison sentence. Whenever my demise arrives i’ll welcome it. i’m tired of the stupidity, the greed, the abuse, the torment, the war, meaningless jobs, neglect of nature – and on and on. This place blows BECAUSE OF HUMANITY. We can’t even communicate without getting into arguments and hurt feelings. Voting does no good at all. School was indoctrination, work was a treadmill and hope for the future was a carrot to keep us all going another day.

    i’m going out to the garden and listen to the birds. Maybe have a glass of my home-made wine first.

  • Steam engines were devised by the ancient Egyptians. However, they lacked an adequate source of energy to power them. The resort to burning surface coal, a result of depletion of firewood was pursued into deeper seams of coal; pumps were devised to remove water from mineshafts. The breakthrough was steam engines to power the pumps, with the engines powered by coal.

    Technology was developed to extract and harness energy: technology was and is driven by energy availability. Increased energy flows allowed increased production. The prospect of ever-increasing production moulded the control systems that took advantage of the growth. The ones with greater societal obligations were more sensitive to constraints of energy flows, while those less enmeshed in societal obligations are lasting a bit longer.

  • @ BK9K

    You state:

    “General question to older/apostate activists: do you wince when you see this kind of reflection of your younger selves? Do you now realize how naive you appeared to those in agreement with your ideals, and how foolish you seemed to those who simply snickered @ your puny efforts? (For the record, green-horn ‘entrepreneurs’ elicit the same shameful regret. LOL)”

    Yes, you know as well as I, I’m going to have to give you that one….however, the not so subtle distinction has always been one of intent. All foolishness is not equal, but yes, I wince at most everything theses days.

  • @ Kathy C

    Of course you sent me Utah, because you’re just simply an awesome human being. Little did you know he is a hero of mine, while I never got the chance to see him live, I have eight cassette tapes of his radio shows, which I never tire of, but I’ve never heard the Miners lullaby, thanks!

    Funny, my grandfather was a coal mine foreman in Oklahoma.

  • Tom, pass the rest of that bottle of wine over here please!

    I’m having a particularly dark day today. I’ve seen too much human cruelty and stupidity lately up close and personal in my volunteer work.

    Tommy Lee Jones says it quite well. He’s suicidal, having a discussion with a Christian who prevented his death.

    The Sunset Limited

  • @ Gail

    You state:

    “I can’t speak for Guy obviously but my understanding is that his near term extinction is unavoidable. He says “resistance is fertile” in the sense that it is a moral imperative. But it’s not going to change the overall trend. I don’t see DGR accomplishing anything, since after much anguish and grieving, I have come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that humans are no more capable of averting overshoot than the reindeer on St. Michael’s Island. I don’t see much reason to hasten the collapse of industrial civilization in order to increase the chances of more species surviving, since it’s doing a pretty good job all by itself. Also given the accelerating positive and irreversible feedbacks already underway, it’s quite likely that sooner or later we will go into runaway heating, and Earth will become like Venus, with no life………I didn’t add, but I’m thinking seriously about no longer resisting to the extent that I have been. I’m very close to accepting, in an emotional and not just intellectual way, that there’s absolutely nothing I can do, or ever could have done, to even slow NTE one iota. It’s possible that there’s very little time left. Perhaps it makes more sense to spend it walking in what’s left of the woods.”

    If I could somehow cast a spell over this blog, I would wish the remainder of this essay’s comment threads to be dedicated to coming to terms with the very dilemma you’ve identified, for it’s a primary concern for me as well.

    NTE is an ideological no man’s land, in this new stark reality, we’ve all found a degree of commiseration where once there was none. Christ, I can barely disagree with anything BK9K has to say, and historically, he and I have probably been at each others throats.

    However, concerning our past moral imperatives as to what is or isn’t the objective of “resistance”, I’m only interested in hearing from the perspectives of those, who at least resisted in the past.

    Now, don’t all you libertarians get your panties all up in a twist over this. For those who are not, nor have ever been a part of DGR, please remain mindful that you are posting on a blog inspired by DGR. Yes, the overarching theme of NBL is obviously NTE, put its a reality viewed from the perspective of DGR. And for those who presume otherwise, you might want to double check that presumption.

    Here is the impasse, and I consider it to be a major crisis of logic: I no longer believe “resistance is fertile”, simply because, I have logically come to accept NTE to be inevitable, and not only that, but probably much sooner than most.

    All moralizing aside, it is wholly illogical to both believe in resistance, while accepting resistance to be futile in preventing NTE. There is just no getting around that fact, unless we completely unseat our moral imperatives from any rationale, and just accept that it is what it has always been: an individual choice irrespective of its objective.

    However, in doing so, we lose all sense of “righteousness”, which has logically been the crux of our past ecological moral imperatives.

    Yes, a moral dilemma…..to say the least!

  • @ All

    I asked Guy to suspend the two comment rule, so that we might be able to further explore, in mass, the issue of what our moral imperative now means in light of NTE. It is obviously a massive point of derision, as well as consternation for almost everyone left of center.

    Do we support Guy’s efforts to get the word out about NTE?

    Can we claim to support Guy’s message if we don’t believe “resistance is fertile”?

    How do we live with our complicity, if we surrender?

    How do we live with ourselves if we abandon everything we once cherished?

  • @ Daniel:

    We really only need the two post limit on U’s condescending attacks and his overbearing numerous posts that completely ruin the flow of the discussion.

    Do we support Guy’s efforts to get the word out about NTE?
    I am of the opinion it will do no good anyway – so, one has to ask, “what is the objective?” If everyone accepted NTE, there would be chaos much sooner than if nobody knows! Those of us who know can make the rest of our days less painful if we can do it in peace. I know, this is morally wrong, not to try to tell people what is coming… but, since it is a waste of time, why waste time?

    Can we claim to support Guy’s message if we don’t believe “resistance is fertile”?
    It’s not a question of supporting his message – I have received his information and I believe the conclusions he has reached. I am now using that information to prepare for the end. I see no point in the resistance so I’ll just go my merry way, thank you.

    How do we live with our complicity, if we surrender?
    We live with it the same way we always have. I think someone here has posted that there is no redemption for the suffering we have caused – and I believe that. I lived a bad life, I am responsible, and I am going to die just like everyone else and I leave nothing since there will be nobody to pass anything on to. Some here say we should keep resisting if for no other reason than to repent and atone – I don’t see any point in that.

    How do we live with ourselves if we abandon everything we once cherished?
    The paradigm shift after accepting NTE is to accept that everything I once cherished was a lie, a big fat lie. I am a product of industrial civilization – I have no foundation in living in balance with nature – my whole life has been an afront to nature. I am embarrassed and ashamed. I was born into upper middle-class America and achieved advanced degrees and professional certifications – yet, as a member of the biology of the planet, I am a total failure. I have done much more harm than good. I live with myself knowing all this. There is no “right” thing to do because there is nothing to do.

  • pat:
    “You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
    you have a right to be here.”
    — Desiderata

  • (pat said: my whole life has been an afront to nature)

  • @ Silly Sam

    What a perfectly appropriate name you have chosen for yourself.

    @ Ozman

    So, after all that prima donna posturing, demanding an apology, all you can offer now is this feeble shabby passive-aggressive attempt at a smear, half a sentence, taken out of its context, contorted and misdirected to something to which it was not addressed. So much for your honour and integrity.

    @ Daniel

    Do we support Guy’s efforts to get the word out about NTE?

    Can we claim to support Guy’s message if we don’t believe “resistance is fertile”?

    How do we live with our complicity, if we surrender?

    How do we live with ourselves if we abandon everything we once cherished?

    I can only answer for myself, not any ‘we’.

    Yes, I support Guy, for his honesty and courage, and his great lectures, which explain the situation with rare clarity. That’s what he wants to do, that’s fine by me. The more people that resist, the better, imo.

    I don’t understand the ‘surrender’ thing. The way i see it, we humans are changing the CO2 in the atmosphere faster than any change that has happened for many millions of years. The results are going to be dramatic. The changes to Earth’s climate, and every aspect of the the biosphere will be dramatic. Nobody knows how this will play out. We’ve destabilised the system. There is no precisely similar comparable event to refer to, for guidance.

    I don’t care what happens to me. I do not care what happens to the people en masse. It’s their own fault. I saw a cuckoo today that has flown up from Africa. I want there to be habitat for things like that, for as long as possible, so that there is some small chance that they survive. That means resisting the machine in any way possible, preserving nature in any way possible.

    Who knows, an idiotic release of a virus, like Tom mentioned, or a massive volcanic eruption, or a huge solar flare, or something else unforeseen may occur. I don’t know what else to do, I have to spend my time doing something, so I do what I do.

    I expect that everything I have ever loved and cherished is going. I can cope with that, I have come to terms with that. It does not follow that I give up or surrender. This is my position. I have no idea what to say to other people. Everyone has to come to terms with the situation in their own way, just as each of us has to come to terms with their personal death in their own way.

    As I have often said, NTE breaks all the stories. But my personal philosophy doesn’t not rely upon any story.

  • more on rapid rise of suicides (this time the common folk):

    (from Susie’s blog, Suburban Guerilla)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6cjvdEIdGzw#!

    Suicide Rates Increasing Sharply

    (she links to a NY Times article and intersperces it with her comments)

    Suicide rates among middle-aged Americans have risen sharply in the past decade, prompting concern that a generation of baby boomers who have faced years of economic worry and easy access to prescription painkillers may be particularly vulnerable to self-inflicted harm.

    “It is the baby boomer group where we see the highest rates of suicide,” said the C.D.C.’s deputy director, Ileana Arias. “There may be something about that group, and how they think about life issues and their life choices that may make a difference.”
    More people now die of suicide than in car accidents, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which published the findings in Friday’s issue of its Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. In 2010 there were 33,687 deaths from motor vehicle crashes and 38,364 suicides.

    Suicide has typically been viewed as a problem of teenagers and the elderly, and the surge in suicide rates among middle-aged Americans is surprising.

    Surprising to whom? The well-paid denizens of the Village’s NYT chapter?

    From 1999 to 2010, the suicide rate among Americans ages 35 to 64 rose by nearly 30 percent, to 17.6 deaths per 100,000 people, up from 13.7. Although suicide rates are growing among both middle-aged men and women, far more men take their own lives. The suicide rate for middle-aged men was 27.3 deaths per 100,000, while for women it was 8.1 deaths per 100,000.

    The most pronounced increases were seen among men in their 50s, a group in which suicide rates jumped by nearly 50 percent, to about 30 per 100,000. For women, the largest increase was seen in those ages 60 to 64, among whom rates increased by nearly 60 percent, to 7.0 per 100,000.

    […] The reasons for suicide are often complex, and officials and researchers acknowledge that no one can explain with certainty what is behind the rise. But C.D.C. officials cited a number of possible explanations, including that as adolescents people in this generation also posted higher rates of suicide compared with other cohorts.

    “It is the baby boomer group where we see the highest rates of suicide,” said the C.D.C.’s deputy director, Ileana Arias. “There may be something about that group, and how they think about life issues and their life choices that may make a difference.”

    It’s the people who followed the rules and were doing well who are in the worst emotional shape. These are folks who believed if they always did the right thing, the responsible thing, nothing bad would ever happen to them. Someone like me, who’s weathered economic extremes for decades, is better emotionally-prepared for the arbitrary turns of the economic wheel. I already know how to be poor and get by; they don’t. If you’re used to feeling secure, it’s a terrible shock to the system to learn you have nothing left to lean on.

    And then we have the political abandonment of this entire cohort, the long-term unemployed. (Remember “jobs, jobs, jobs”?) The 99ers were hung out to dry, and the politicians said there was “no political will” to do anything about them — which is Beltway-ese for “They’re not our donors.” Our politicians are much more willing to fight for guns than people.

    The rise in suicides may also stem from the economic downturn over the past decade. Historically, suicide rates rise during times of financial stress and economic setbacks. “The increase does coincide with a decrease in financial standing for a lot of families over the same time period,” Dr. Arias said.

    What, baby boomers are somehow inherently suicidal? They’re just so self-centered and childish, of course they throw the ultimate tantrum when they can’t get their own way?

    Or not. Maybe they’re just human fucking beings whose lives have been ruined by the lawless actions of the Wall Street elite, enabled by the austerity fever dreams of the media elite. Chew on that one, New York Times.

  • Daniel, in response to your questions:
    I support Guy personally, but am not in favor of hastening collapse. But I don’t see him pushing for that either. Complicity, guilt, etc. gets tricky for me:

    Daniel says: However, in doing so, we lose all sense of “righteousness”, which has logically been the crux of our past ecological moral imperatives.

    Morals: a human invention—
    How dominants grab your attention;
    The make rules for your niche
    The obeying of which
    They have not the slightest intention.
    ==

    Daniel says: I’m coming to suspect that the cognitive dilemma of NTE might merit an entirely new branch of ontology.

    Daniel, I still haven’t given up hope that you’ll write a comprehensive outline of this someday (or at least what you’ve got so far). :D

  • Thanks Daniel. I have been looking forward to your essay since I first heard that you might write it.It gives me much to think about and I will respond to
    it once I’ve thought it through some more. For now I wanted to leave you all with a limerick that your essay put in my head.

    What is a person to do
    Once accepting our species is through?
    Should we live for the day?
    Should we just walk away
    Or live believing there’s work yet to do?

  • OK one more off topic limerick.
    Off topic humor break. Someone mentioned on this thread that it was garden naked day. I thought BtD would take it up as it is ripe for limericking. No such luck so I made my own up.

    GARDEN NAKED DAY

    I think it would be quite a hoot
    To see gardeners in just gloves and boots
    Though, when they’re bending,I pray
    That my eyes drift away
    Lest I see all their low-hanging fruit

  • I don’t know BtD, but you might have some competition here, “lest I see their low-hanging fruit”. That’s priceless.

  • Yes, they’re both very good.

    thestormcrow says I thought BtD would take it up as it is ripe for limericking

    I checked out the nudie site, but nothing came up. :D

  • I’ve put up an especially media-rich post. It’s here.

  • ulvfugl

    Contrary to what you may think I dont post comments for you.

  • Ecuadorian tribes vow to fight to death to protect the auctioning of 8 million acres of prime Amazonian rain forest for oil drilling.

    http://www.today.com/video/today/51760814/#51760814

    How sad. Just like the recent move to damn the Amazon River in Brazil and displace thousands. It’s hard to wrap the mind around the human activities of the anthropocene .

  • ..Notice the intentional use of the word ‘damn’ the river.

  • @ Pat

    I very much appreciate your candor.

  • ‘It is a separate reality, that feeling part of us. It doesn’t say “why,” it only tells us what to do. It only tells us what we know, without knowing how or why we know it.

    It is the part of us so rejected by this dominant culture.’ -oldgrowthforest, about 36 hours ago.

    very insightful. we live under dogmas, according to laws and much pressure to conform. living this way, very much spontaneity and authenticity are lost, and we’re all the poorer for it, imo. it’s a much sadder, unfulfilling existence, this domesticated life.

    on another point, i see daniel’s writing is now more in demand. i’ve an offer to him and potentially anyone reading this with a hankering to write: if u wish, obtain my email from guy and send rough drafts of your work. if i like what i see but also see have editing/revising that i think might improve your work, i’ll make those suggestions. might even suggest an idea or 2 to add. a way for this frustrated writer to contribute perhaps by collaborating… sometimes 2 heads are better.

  • @ TVT

    That’s a kind offer, due to the economic downturn, I’ve had to lay off my editorial staff, and for the life of me, I don’t know why no one I know, hasn’t offered to edit papers on the altruism of suicide in the face of NTE…….what am I missing?

  • Ripley,
    Now, lets move on to the person who has a 400 foot yacht and still wants another. Such a person’s consumption is “dragging down all life on the planet” at a rate that is several thousand times more than the frugal person who you said was guilty. Why didn’t you say anything about how much guilt that person should feel? How much more guilt should that person feel?

    With these kinds of discussions I like to think I’m thinking rationally, though I could be wrong. In open chats, I’d say, yes, that rich guy should feel as guilty as hell, much more so than the simple living person. However, as Guy has said, the sooner this civilisation ends, the better. The rich guy is speeding the collapse, whereas the simply living guy is dragging it out. Now, if there really is a chance of avoiding NTE, this civilisation needs to terminate quickly, so perhaps the frugal person should feel more guilt. But that seems crazy.

    It’s a tough one. All I can say is that all who take advantage of civilisation are guilty of degrading our environment. That certainly includes me, though I wish it didn’t.

  • 35 pages … 11,000 words … to say, “in my opinion, we will go extinct and soon.”

    John Maynard Keynes, “In the long run we are all dead.”

    Oh well, having spent most of our lives facing overkill and ‘Mutually Assured Destruction’ this latest ‘threat’ seems a bit lame. If we go what does it mean, really? Does anyone really care? What’s on TV? How CAN is lose this bellyfat?

    Believe it or not, Planet Earth cycles through this ‘species reduction’ process repeatedly: glaciations are extinction events, so are super-volcanoes, asteroid impacts, orbital wobbles, isthmus- and mountain range formations, etc. There have been human genetic bottlenecks, were we the only species effected? Not likely … where are all the Titanotheres?

    More reasonable is that the gigantic waste-based industrial enterprise stands on the threshold of its own self-created abyss. Some may weep for pleasures foreclosed … goodbye, good riddance, don’t let the door hitcher on the ass on the way out. Sooner rather than later and all that … humans may go but certainly the cars will all go first.

    That is an extinction event to look forward to!

  • @oldgrowthforest
    I hope you will reconsider participating! I was so excited to have someone representing Alaska on here. (I think there are a couple other Alaskans that pop in once in a while, but I miss a lot.) I have felt that most of my family and friends that are still up there are pretty insulated from most of the effects of climate change, in that they aren’t far enough north to witness permafrost/ice loss, which has been going on for a couple decades now, and even after the flooding and massive wind storms last summer, they just aren’t paying attention. Long before I left there, I noticed the winters were much warmer, a lot of Chinook thawing, but now they/you are getting cold/wet summers, as well. Going from record snows one winter, to praying for snow the next. “Alaskan’s for global warming!” a friend declares on Facebook, and I just think, well, I guess your native village isn’t being displaced by erosion/loss of sea ice, so why not!? Really, what is wrong with people? and is it ok to slap someone for being so stupid?! Not that I would…
    But anyway, don’t take anything personally here. I used to get my undies in a bundle when I would see people calling women having babies “breeders”, that kind of thing, and would feel persona non grata, but hey, even though I have little ones, others here have had children, as well, even if they are grown. Nobody talks much about the children. We don’t have an exact time frame for NTE, so raising kids in this mess is a nightmare. If the planet holds out long enough, I’m going to have to send them out into a world vastly different from the one I have known, so what do I teach them? What skills will be useful? I have no answers and don’t know who to ask, don’t really know the right questions. I used to wonder why there aren’t more parents on here, but I guess they are all prepping their bunkers or something.
    Anyway, before I ramble on, your commentary is valuable, and many people who read here don’t comment, so you never know who might need your voice.
    Peace & light to you, though you must be getting abundant light in AK by now!

  • @ Kathy C

    I was asked to write a guest essay on containment pools for collapse of industrial civilization.com, but I think you could do a much better job covering this issue than me. Are you interested? I’m not.

  • Tony, you may be right. With NTE, the proper thing to do now may be to join in on the destruction and speed it up. I can foresee NBL bloggers eventually signing up for logging expeditions in the rainforests or the redwoods. We could all post our photos and brag about cutting down the oldest or the biggest tree.

  • @ Ozman

    ulvfugl

    Contrary to what you may think I dont post comments for you.

    No ? What did you just do ?

  • @ Ozman

    Your comment here had too many links so was in moderation and I missed it. I’ll answer it now.

    “…someone living in fantasy, such as yourself, who gives dreams priority over empirical reality.”

    Can you point to any actual Empirical Reality ? Where is it? What is it? When is it?
    Simple questions. But ulvfugl cannot answer any of this, no one can. Einstein’s revelation of relativity, which thankfully he shared with everyone, puts the stoppers on any ‘Empirical Reality’.

    Utter nonsense. You have no understanding. What do you think the word ’empirical’ MEANS ?

    Can you name and describe any empirical reality, actually, really. Try to do it, without reference to any other defining sub-atomic particle, which just seem to get smaller and then coming into being and going out of being, slowing down to the speed of light, then manifesting. What a joke, only a child like Polonius in Hamlet can give this jibber some credibility.

    No, Ozman. The joke is on you, for failing to see what a fool you are making of yourself. Any carpenter who goes out with a tape and measures a piece of wood is dealing with empirical reality. Anybody who goes to a tap and fills a glass with water is dealing with empirical reality.

    Where wold this empirical reality actually reside, where exactly. Somewhere in and expanding gravitational post big bang field – oh and a theoretical maybe ‘expanding gravitational post big bang field’. And lets speak about where we really are in relation to an absolute stationary positional coordinate in some bigger than my arse cosmic envelop of gravitonic flux particles. You see, it is all complex child stories, just to satisfy the very smart minds that are trying very hard to understand their tiny place in this big sausage.

    Ah yes, so, just because there are multiple problems regarding ultimate explanations on the macro and micro level, which of course, there are, YOU want to use that as an argument to ‘debunk science’ in favour of your superior insight via your dreams. Sorry, that won’t do.

    Ask those simple questions and you will realise it is all only coherent in the local field of experience. Scientific empirical reality.

    Now acknowledging this, as Sheldrake does, does not imply that one therefore believe that one can just surf the line of will induced make believe.

    Far from it.

    The apple still falls.

    But the value of letting go of this childhood story of science proving or describing an Empirical Reality, is you can get to look for what is going on, in reality.

    You might like to check out Rupert Sheldrake’s take on the so called Empirical Reality’ and the presumptions of ‘Science’.

    I’m thoroughly familiar with Sheldrake’s views. i don’t need to check him out.

    “Rupert Sheldrake outlines 10 dogmas he has found to exist within mainstream science today. He states that when you look at each of these scientifically, you see that they are not actually true.

    1. Nature is mechanical or machine like

    2. All matter is unconscious

    3. The laws or constants of nature are fixed

    4. The total amount of matter and energy is always the same

    5. Nature is purposeless

    6. Biological heredity is material

    7. Memories are stored inside your brain

    8. Your mind is inside your head

    9. Psychic phenomena like telepathy is not possible

    10. Mechanistic medicine is the only kind that works”

    We have a term down here for people who can’t accept that a lot of mature intelligent human understanding releases you from ‘prejudice’ and ‘certainty’. Its a good word to use when someone, even very intelligent, accuses one of:

    ” living in Lalaland, which refers to someone living in fantasy, such as yourself, who gives dreams priority over empirical reality.”

    I wont use this word here because that would be uncivil. Fill in your own rough guess.

    Debunking scientific ‘empirical reality’ was rather simple, as we can see.

    Unfortunately, you remain totally deluded. You have not debunked anything. You’ve quoted Sheldrake. Sheldrake is an eminent scientist, Sheldrake doesn’t ‘debunk science’. What Sheldrake wants is BETTER science. He want scientists to address some of the fundamental issues that have been overlooked. I want that too. You should have listened more attentively to what Rupert actually said.

    To recap. Scientific explanations of ‘Empirical Reality’ are only theoretical.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Science consists of THEORIES. So it is THEORETICAL. Not ‘only’ theoretical. THEORETICAL. You simply don’t comprehend what science is and what it is about.

    They ‘seem’ to be correctly describing events in ‘the local field’, nowhere else – big or small. This is how stories work, in the situation where the story takes place is defined well, but before or after is less clear and less well understood. That does not mean the story is not coherent in the moments it takes place, nor is ‘true’.

    More nonsense. Yes, the theory is a story, but it is a scientific story, that means it has to conform to the rigorous requirements of science. It has to be testable, it has to be repeatable. Any scientist should be able to check the data, they should be able to test the theory against empirical reality, to see how it holds up.

    Good luck with living in a theoretical empirical reality.

    That sums up your childish approach really, doesn’t it. You don’t understand what the words mean.

    It sort of “refers to someone living in fantasy”.

    For the record, I do not give preference to dreams ‘over’ local field situational awareness – what ulvfugl seems to call Empirical Reality.

    I merely note that a shit load of those dreams have come true year, even decades later. That seems pretty empirical, to me. Not repeatable in an experimental situation, mind you, so no Scientific banana, but still does not make it ‘unreal’.

    What you said, is that you do not accept what Guy says, re climate change and NTE, because your dreams tell you different.

    What I said, is that, regardless of what your effing dreams tell you, the Arctic ice still melts and CO2 still keeps rising. All this crap about ‘local field situational awareness’ is just obscurantist bullshit.

    ulvfugl, you might like to try this children’s book,

    ‘Vegetable Surrender or Happiness Is Not Blue’

    “A humorous and instructive story written by Adi Da Samraj for young children…

    Onion One-Yin and his vegetable friends embark on a search for someone who can help them solve their problems—and discover the secret of how to be happy, right now! Illustrated with black and white line drawings.”

    No thanks, I don’t have time.

    Or if you want a thorough, rigorous debunking of science and Empirical Reality, then why not try this CD, titled:

    ‘The Asana of Science’

    “In this recording from 1980, Avatar Adi Da Samraj speaks about the false presumptions upon which the conventional scientific point of view is based….
    Avatar Adi Da goes on to describe our inherent participation in Reality, and calls us to understand the limitations of present and traditional dogmas by observing and considering our condition as a whole.
    ‘The mere external, or objective, physical world—which is only a conventional notion, anyway—is a fraction of the total Condition of which you are directly aware in every moment. The physical universe, which science wants to investigate, itself represents only a portion, one dimension, of a much wider, broader scale of dimensions in which you participate.’ – Avatar Adi Da Samraj”

    Look, i really don’t care what you believe, or what Adi Da believes, but we are biological beings on this planet, and when the biosphere collapses because of climate chaos, we all get to die. Doesn’t matter how many dimensions there are.

    I can heartily recommend:

    ‘The Transmission of Doubt’

    “Talks and Essays on the Transcendence of Scientific Materialism through Radical Understanding…
    This book presents a “radical” alternative to scientific materialism, the ideology of our time. Adi Da Samraj Calls us to understand and transcend the materialist dogmas and “objective” stance of conventional scientific philosophy. He Calls us to awaken to all the dimensions of existence—not just the material dimension—in which we are living participants. And finally, He Calls us to find the Heart-position of ego-transcending love, or non-separateness in relation to all that exists.”

    I would offer you my copy but I think I will reread it now.

    Fine, I’m all in favour of people being more spiritual and less materialistic, blablabla, but all that stuff is out of date, it is too late, it will not make any difference.

    Happy listening/reading ulvfugl.

    I will not be listening to your guru, Ozman. I have everything I need already. All those stories get broken by NTE, they are no use anymore.

  • Good morning all. Just thought I’d give an update on the ammo situation that someone (BKB9??) mentioned upthread.

    It’s true, there is a major ammo shortage, especially in 22 caliber. According to the guy at the range, after Obummer was reelected, our brethern countrymen went batshit crazy and started buying up the ammo and this only accelerated after Sandy Hook. Hoarding and another big buy by the DHS has decimated the stock. Even online stock.

    Manufacturers project it will take 2 years before supplies are flowing again.

    I can hear people saying…”how convenient”.

  • This looks like a job for geoengineering! Unleash the technologists!

    Michael Irving

  • I am beginning to wonder if ulvfugl might be a new version of Deep Blue, being run through its paces on the internet for the Turing Test. It would explain the lack of ability to learn anything.

    ‘Turing Test’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

    “The Turing test is a test of a machine’s ability to exhibit intelligent behaviour equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of an actual human……The conversation is limited to a text-only channel such as a computer keyboard and screen”

    We could all be Turing tests….Ha!

  • @ Ozman

    Obviously nothing that I can learn from you, is there Ozman.

    Just amazing that you manage to be here for years and not understand what Guy is saying in his lectures, and you quote Rupert Sheldrake in your support, when he is saying the opposite of what you are saying. Unbelievable really.

    I mean, what were you actually trying to say ? You talk such rubbish. Einstein’s revelation of relativity, which thankfully he shared with everyone, puts the stoppers on any ‘Empirical Reality’.

    Hahahahahaha. That’s simply WRONG. Einstein’s relativity doesn’t make any difference AT ALL to empirical reality. Zero marks out of ten, Fail.

    You are surrounded by empirical reality. We all are. The fundamental problem that YOU have, is that you do not understand what science IS. Your hubris and ignorance and guru-worship blinds you.

  • @ Ripley

    “I can foresee NBL bloggers eventually signing up for logging expeditions in the rainforests or the redwoods.”

    Now……..that’s a rather unfair assessment, don’t you think?

  • Will any form of life survive the onslaught of CO2 and higher temperatures — perhaps some form of microbial life — or is Earth set to become another inferno like Venus?

  • @ cuntagious

    My personal opinion, there are extremophile bacteria which will probably survive almost any conditions that I can imagine occurring. So, whatever happens, life will recover in some form, albeit in some distant future.

    From what I’ve read, Earth cannot go through a full runaway heating to a full Venus effect. However, there are many lesser feedback effects which can get into a runaway self-reinforcing loop for a long time until something stops them, e.g heating releases methane, which causes more heating, releases more methane, which will keep going until there is no more methane available to release. Which could be, say, centuries.

    My guess is, that human civilisation will collapse before conditions become so extreme that only bacteria remain. I don’t think there is any chance at all of avoiding the collapse of human civilisation, given the trends ( to continue use of fossil fuels, increasing population, the staggering ignorance, e.g. even amongst the ‘informed’, like Joe Romm, who doesn’t even understand that without the ecosystems that keep the planet livable, humans don’t survive, etc, etc. ) but I’d say it’s quite likely that many life forms will keep going, insects, jelly fish, etc.

    The sooner human industrial civilisation ends, the more will be left, but the coming future climate chaos is unknowable, so what life forms it will favour is also unknowable, so it’s just my personal speculation.

  • @ Cuntagious

    Yes, I believe is Ulvfugl is correct, however, it depends on who you ask. James Hansen definitely thinks its a possibility. His first and only book, repeatedly claims the Venus syndrome could very easily happen on earth, but not for quite awhile. But whether or not all of life is snuffed out, or just bacteria survives, it doesn’t really matter, for it’s estimated that earth only has another 500 million years in which it can support life, period. So that’s not leaving a whole lot of time for life to evolve……..again.

  • Daniel Says:

    May 4th, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    @ Ripley

    “I can foresee NBL bloggers eventually signing up for logging expeditions in the rainforests or the redwoods.”

    Now……..that’s a rather unfair assessment, don’t you think?

    Not under the logic that no one’s behavior is to be opposed or even spoken of because we are all guilty, not under the logic of “nothing matters” that most bloggers here seem to have adopted. Unfair, not at all. Why unfair?

  • @ Ripley

    Well, I’m going to assume you’re being slightly facetious in claiming we’re somehow advocating for wholesale destruction of our planet, because we consider humanity to now be passed the point of no return, and where subsequently, “nothing we do matters” because we can’t turn back the clock.

    Just because some of us think this, it doesn’t connote, or give free license to just engage in blanket unethical behavior. We don’t suddenly become someone else, once we’ve come to terms with this, we just enter into uncharted territory where all our key identifiers just fade away.

    Now, if you think humanity is not beyond the point of no return, I personally have no interest in trying to convince you. That’s just a choice you have to make. And I definitely understand that if you don’t think this is true, how you would see those who do, as somehow immorally giving up before they should. Or if this is something you will never accept, regardless of how much evidence there is, then we’re talking about something entirely different than climate science, aren’t we?

    I was hoping this essay would stimulated more of a conversation of the disparity between “resistance being fertile”, compared to it being “futile”, but honestly, I think our emotions are either still too raw for any of us to truly know either way, or it’s just an irreconcilable difference. As Ulvfugl has repeatedly stated: in the end it’s just a choice to believe in whatever story you choose.

    But something’s are intractable, if they’re not, then there is no such thing as intractably. Something’s are irreversible. The current death spiral of the Arctic is an example of both. Whatever date we eventually consider to be the end of the Holocene, it is already behind us. All humanity is doing now, is psychologically playing catch-up to what we already know to be true, yet can’t accept.

    I am someone who believes that nothing we do, from here on out matters. If you think this doesn’t absolutely devastate me, then apparently I’ve failed to convey that devastation, and maybe this doesn’t come through, because I’ve been devastated for quite awhile, and apparently have had more time to come to terms with where we now are.

    I’m an empiricist. From my perspective, nothing in the observable physical world trumps empirical truth. This means I believe in tipping points. I also remember a time about two decades ago, where even the idea of crossing one tipping point, was considered to be the end. And now, we’ve crossed around ten! The whole premise of climate activism going back roughly thirty years, has been dedicated to preventing us from reaching the point that is now effectively behind us.

    This is what “we’re”–or at least I’m–talking about, when we say “it no longer matters”.

    And sorry for being that obnoxious guy who quotes himself, but this is what I was getting at when I wrote:

    “I suspect most criticism of this essay will come from those who have yet to fully accept NTE … and rightly so! But please be mindful, the following is written from a post-acceptance perspective. If this is a judgment you do not share, then the commiserative intent within this essay will simply elude you.”

    Acceptance of NTE, in my opinion, is simply the most daunting prospect in which the human race has ever been confronted. And where even within “this acceptance”, there are varying degrees of it. I am also of the opinion, that a familiarity with depression, is actually a psychological perquisite for truly coming to terms with the phenomena of NTE, at this early stage. Because honestly, that’s all we’re talking about, for the morass of depression eventually becomes its own self-reinforcing feedback, which is why the entire field of psychology virtually ignores environmental trauma, for there is no solution, and this is why I consider most of our resistance to climate science, to actually be the fear of the inconsolable depression it naturally instills.

    But when I say “it no longer matters”, I’m also talking about the depression; no point in being depressed about something we can’t change.

    But if you chose to believe “resistance is fertile” then all the power to you my friend, let us both hope you are right, and I’m utterly wrong.

    Thanks for all the time you put into thinking about this Ripley, while you and I may disagree, I want you to know, I hear where you’re coming from. Keep it lit.

  • my 2 cents on the religion/spirituality topics raised/addressed by oldgrowth, gail, and others: i hate dogmas/dogmatism. religion/spirit is cool only when it’s dogma-free. if that makes me a religion basher, so be it. just say NO! to dogmas. to the mentality that equates dogmatic faith with truth and virtue. unfortunately, there isn’t a lot of dogma-free religion/spirituality around, imo. this is why religion is so oft criticized by freethinkers, while science, i should say pure science, which seeks knowledge without bias, is praised.

    ‘This place blows BECAUSE OF HUMANITY. We can’t even communicate without getting into arguments and hurt feelings. Voting does no good at all. School was indoctrination, work was a treadmill and hope for the future was a carrot to keep us all going another day.’

    tom, it’s nice knowing there are other despairing misanthropes around. actually, i think our species wouldn’t be so bad without civilization, without self-domestication. people might be cool, sheeple aren’t. civilization is what blows.