Interviewed in the Doomstead Diner, mentioned at C-Realm

I was interviewed for the Doomstead Diner Friday, 16 June. Registration to the Diner is free, and the resulting podcasts are embedded at the two links below:

Plague! (permalinked at the The Burning Platform, Survival Place Blog, and The Daily Sheeple)

Podcast Page (near the bottom of this page, and titled “Guy McPherson: Life History and Philosophy”)

On Wednesday, 26 June, KMO interviewed Jay Smith for the C-Realm podcast. Based on his participation at the Age of Limits conference, Jay brought up my name as a topic. KMO ran with it. Catch it all here, starting at the five-minute mark and running to the halfway point of the podcast. Disparagement begins anew about 37 minutes in.

Support the west-coast Reality Tour: Filmmaker Mike Sosebee and I will be responding to Q&A after showing Somewhere in New Mexico before the End of Time at various venues between Fresno and Seattle, 15-29 August 2013. If you have a venue, send Mike an email message at Purchase your own DVD of the film here.


Please join me in supporting Blazing Kat Productions, the sights and sounds of Occupy. Post your secure donation here.


I’ve posted a new Classified Ad, and pasted it below. Track all the ads here.

At 4,600 feet above sea level in rural, southwestern New Mexico you’ll find 2.73 private acres and a 1,400-square-foot trailer home. Latter has large, south-facing, stick-and-stucco addition with skylights, lots of light, and solar gain. Good well and water quality and 1/8-acre water right. Two sheds and one converted school bus with kitchen addition and electric and running water. Gorgeous 180-degree view, end of the road, bordered by public land on two sides, ramadas, shade trees, and gardens. $140,000, no owner financing. Contact

Comments 85

  • The Rio Grande, where it supplied the city of Albuquerque, has just about run dry. The city now has to resort to deep wells to supply its water. People still talk about housing development.

    Kathy C: From previous article: I tried to thank you for reminding folks to prepare regarding their pets and other of the defenseless. The post got lost. Vets do a remarkable job at euthanizing pets. The trick will be to have vets and other end-of-life professionals in our close-knit communities.

  • Heat Wave May Threaten World’s Hottest Temp. Record

    A brutal and potentially historic heat wave is in store for the West as parts of Nevada, Arizona and California may get dangerously hot temperatures this weekend and into next week. In fact, by the end of the heat wave, we may see a record tied or broken for the hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth.

  • Artleads,

    You wrote:

    “People still talk about housing development.”

    I use to work as a model builder of various architecture type developments. In the last year or so there are still vast tracts of rural land here in NSW, Australia, slated for carpet bombing in suburbia. Fully car dependent suburbs , upwards of 6,000 dwellings all going from AUST $450,000 to AUST $650,000 each. These places are still in the development curve, but someone will build the real things if they get the chance.

    I can’t emphasise enough the gravity of your sentence, it is still what the Corporations want and yes ‘need’ to keep BAU.

    If economic growth is shut down, then BAU is not possible.

    They will use the laws to fight to keep it as it is now.
    The planet cannot take this kind of destruction any more.

    ‘People still talk about housing development.’

    It is mad. It is destructive. It is so ‘normal’, however.

  • Guy – thanks for the great podcast! Seems like about every other one leads to another tipping point being crossed. It won’t be long before people actually notice that the weather is completely &@(/3% up everywhere on the planet. You are amazingly eloquent in your presentation – completely disarming people expecting someone to be freaking out and screaming about all this.

    Mankind: Death by Corporation


    The word “corporation,” derived from the Latin corporare, means to physically embody. In his History of the Corporation, Bruce Brown notes how in the first thousand years after the fall of the Roman Empire, “the world’s most powerful corporations were all trying to embody the Christian God.” In 1534, Saint Thomas More spoke of Jesus Christ as the ultimate corporation. “He [Jesus] doth . . . incorporate all christen folke and hys owne bodye together in one corporacyon mistical.”

    Needless to say, in the 21st century, corporations as creations of civilization make no pretense of embodying the Christian God. In fact, today, corporations come much closer to embodying Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein than Jesus Christ. Ironically, created by and managed by humans, corporations have become almost robotic monsters, perpetrating, even feeding off human misery, threatening every aspect of human life – the air we breathe, the water we drink and the food we eat – and even the future of mankind itself. What have these corporate Frankenstein monsters done for us lately?

    At least 1,127 people have died in a collapsed garment factory in Dhaka, Bangladesh, the deadliest such accident in world history. As of this writing, the largest American clothing corporations, Gap, Walmart and Target, who are end users of these death-trap factories, are still unwilling to commit to any safety improvements. Fifteen people were killed and over 200 injured in West, Texas, from an explosion at a fertilizer plant. Despite the deaths of 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary school, no meaningful legislation to subdue ongoing gun slaughter in the United States will get passed.

    All of these recent tragic headlines have a common denominator. Corporate profits were, and are, allowed primacy over all other considerations. Even Wayne LaPierre’s foaming-at-the-mouth speech about freedom, liberty and second amendment rights is a smokescreen for ginning up profits for gun manufacturers, because American gun owners are on a steady, 30-year decline. The death certificate of all these victims – at Dhaka, West and Sandy Hook – should read, “Death by corporation.”

    But rummaging over the current and historical larger-scale threats to entire societies, countries and mankind in general, we see a grotesque, recurrent theme – corporations willing to kill, maim and destroy even their own creators in the name of profit.

    (there’s more)

  • Great interview, Guy. I was glad to hear those corrections concerning Malcolm Light’s paper and the diurnal temperature range following 9/11 (in your other Doomsday Diner podcast about Climate Change and Extinction).

    One thing I wasn’t clear on was the CO2 equivalent ppm with regard to methane. The figures I’ve seen include methane and other atmospheric constituents but show a CO2 equivalent of 472 ppm (I think that’s the right figure). You seemed to be saying that with methane added, the CO2eq concentration goes up by somewhere between 150 and 250 ppm. Did I hear that right?

    Regarding the question about partying like it’s 1999, I agree that you couldn’t tell the difference for most people but I’m not sure about those who are currently trying to change the way they live, or have actually done it. The latter group, maybe, as they are already in that mode of living. The former group could well revert to hedonism, though. I’m not sure what I’d do but I can’t help thinking that seeking to change to a more sustainable way of living would be too hard if there were no positive effects of doing so. If humans are to become extinct, in short order, regardless of changes to one’s lifestyle, then why do it, if it is difficult to do?

    Your comments on the human body not being able to thermo-regulate hit home a little. I have seen some scientists talking about the fact that the bland average temperature is not really reflective of what it would actually feel like because land temperatures, over much of the planet, would be higher than over the oceans (and thus significantly higher than the average) and this, in turn, would lead to much longer heat waves. I’m not sure about the terrestrial extent of that, though.

  • Traffic
    “Low Spark Of High-Heeled Boys”

    If you see something that looks like a star
    and it’s shooting up out of the ground
    and your head is spinning from a loud guitar.
    And you just can’t escape from the sound
    don’t worry too much, it’ll happen to you
    We were children once, playing with toys.

    And the thing that you’re hearing is only the sound
    of the low spark of high-heeled boys.

    The percentage you’re paying is too high priced
    while you’re living beyond all your means.
    And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
    from the profit he’s made on your dreams.
    But today you just swear that the man was shot dead
    by a gun that didn’t make any noise.
    But it wasn’t the bullet that laid him to rest
    was the low spark of high-heeled boys.

    If you had just a minute to breathe
    and they granted you one final wish
    would you ask for something, like another chance.
    Or something similar as this
    don’t worry too much, it’ll happen to you
    as sure as your sorrows are joys.

    And the thing that disturbs you is only the sound
    of the low spark of high-heeled boys.

    The percentage you’re paying is too high priced
    while you’re living beyond all your means
    and the man in the suit has just bought a new car
    from the profit he’s made on your dreams
    But today you just swear that the man was shot dead
    by a gun that didn’t make any noise
    But it wasn’t the bullet that laid him to rest
    was the low spark of high-heeled boys….high-heeled boys.

    If I gave you everything that I own
    and asked for nothing in return
    Would you do the same for me, as I would for you?
    Or take me for a ride
    and strip me of everything, including my pride
    But spirit is something that no one destroys

    And the sound that I’m hearing is only the sound
    of the low spark of high-heeled boys.

  • Bombshell Study Finds Drinking Water Near Fracking Wells Contaminated With Methane

    Wells used for drinking water near the Marcellus Shale in northeast Pennsylvania have methane concentrations six times higher than wells farther away. That is the finding of a Duke University study published on June 24th in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

    The researchers analyzed 141 drinking water wells (combining data from a previous study of 60 sampled wells in 2011) from the Alluvium, Catskill, and Lock Haven aquifers and a few drinking water wells from the Genesee Formation in Otsego County of New York. Methane was detected in 82 percent of drinking water samples for homes within a kilometer (0.62 miles or 1,093 yards) of hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, wells.

    Robert Jackson from Duke’s Nicholas School of the Environment wrote the report and confirmed that, “the methane, ethane and propane data, and new evidence from hydrocarbon and helium isotopes, all suggest that drilling has affected some homeowners’ water.”

    The natural gas boom is happening all across the country. Gas constitutes about 25 percent of total energy consumption. Pennsylvania saw natural gas production increase by 69 percent in 2012.

    But this boom has also created many issues: earthquakes, water contamination and scarcity, and leakage. 65 percent of Americans already say more regulations of fracking are needed, despite only a few studies having been conducted on the topic of possible water contamination. This makes the recent Duke study a significant contribution to the ongoing fracking debate.

    The study states “the two simplest explanations” for the contamination in drinking water are faulty or inadequate steel casings and imperfections in cement sealings.

    Natural gas companies will hopefully work to develop ways to fix the problem of well integrity, but the Duke study shows just how much additional research and investigation into the fracking process is needed, especially by the federal government.

    Unfortunately the EPA has decided to drop their investigation of probable water contamination due to fracking in Pavilion, Wyoming. Instead, the agency will support the state’s own investigation into water quality in the area even though EPA originally concluded that “the data indicates likely impact to ground water that can be explained by hydraulic fracturing.” Wyoming’s version of the report is set to be released by September 30, 2014.

    Even worse, the Bureau of Land Management’s draft rules released in May fail to protect people from harm and instead protect the oil and gas industry from having to follow strong environmental standards. DeSmogBlog also notes that BLM adopted the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) model bill written by ExxonMobil.

    Even if the engineering problems were fixed, fracking will still allow greenhouse gases to pump into our atmosphere, which is bad for public health and drives global warming.

  • It might be worth mentioning something, regarding the methane hydrates. I keep hearing that these are predominately found ‘deep in the ocean’ and some ‘experts’ tell us we don’t need to worry because any release will occur over centuries or thousands of years, because high water pressure and low water temperature keep the hydrates in a frozen state.

    However, if you read up on what’s known, this does not appear to be correct. Most hydrates are in the shallow continental shelf waters, around 200-500 metres deep, or so, which can warm quite easily from storms, or from movement of ocean currents, or in the case of the East Siberian Arctic, ( where there is a very significant quantity ) from warm fresh water coming off the unfrozen land via rivers, and from the loss of sea ice cover.

    Also, never mentioned, is the land methane hydrate, buried in the ground of the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. I’m no expert, but reading a few papers there seems to be tremendous quantity there too. It’s not even marked on the world map of methane hydrates that I have seen. One expedition found enough there to provide ‘all of China’s energy needs for the next ninety years’.

    As I understand it, those hydrates are from shallow to deep, hundreds to thousands of feet deep, and have remained frozen because of the permafrost. Which is now melting.

    Climate change is expected to alter precipitation from snow to rain. So what happens when warm water soaks down to those hydrates ? There is no imaginable way of stopping the methane from being released, is there.

    And then there is the permafrost proper, the frozen peat of Siberia and Canada, which is already known to be releasing CO2 and methane.

    And then there is the Antarctic.

    As I understand it, a methane spike and a temperature spike go hand in hand, a ten deg C rise over a decade being a plausible scenario.

    Is that alarmist ? I don’t think so. I think it’s like saying to the navigator of a boat, that if we keep going that direction, there’s that rock, and it will rip right through the hull.

    Is there time left to turn around ? Me, I don’t think so. If that rock don’t get us, there’s the list that Guy mentions….

    How come Guy is the ONLY person on the whole planet, the whole internet, who is saying this stuff ???? Why is it taking so long for everyone else to catch up ?

    Some do. Slowly. There’s a time lag of about a year, it seems. But we don’t have any spare time left. Do we.

  • ulvfugl

    All the time in the world…..

  • I see plenty of doomer websites that talk about peak oil, climate change, AGW, etc., as well as plenty of discussions of the coming resource wars, martial law, etc.

    In fact, it seems that whenever there is something in the news about some weird weather event, they often allude to the fact that this is just the beginning and it’s probably going to get worse.

    The signs are out there – all around us. People that don’t “get it” don’t WANT to “get it.” They don’t want to think about it, they think it’s depressing.

  • sorry for posting more than my share today, but this is a must see if you eat (on GMO foods and Monsanto specifically):

  • Tony writes, “You seemed to be saying that with methane added, the CO2eq concentration goes up by somewhere between 150 and 250 ppm. Did I hear that right?”

    Over a couple decades, methane is at least 100 times more powerful than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Current atmospheric concentration of methane exceeds 1,800 parts per billion. If I’m doing the math correctly, that’s equivalent to about 180 ppm CO2.

  • The Resistance has untold numbers just waiting to be organized!

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Sasha Boojor squirmed and struggled as black-clad masked men yanked him out of a cage and branded him with a hot iron. While the smell of seared flesh was disturbing, he said, this shocking and painful act was worth it: He was showing solidarity with animals that suffer branding on farms around the world.

    I’m pretty sure that Sasha could be recruited to blow up a cell phone tower!

  • Excuse me, but isn’t the goal to have 90% of Earth’s population die as quickly as possible while dismantling the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization?

    If so, wouldn’t it be a GOOD thing to have GMOs kill as many of us as possible?

    I think the reality is that YES we all recognize the solution, the battle is really over WHO gets to survive (if anyone survives).

    Since NTE means nobody and nothing living survives, WTF, let me have another plate of that GMO corn!

  • Guy,

    1 billion divided by 1 thousand = 1 million.

    1,800 / 1000 = 1.8 ???
    Please verify.

  • Listened to them both. Really good interviewers.

  • Artleads you wrote ” From previous article: I tried to thank you for reminding folks to prepare regarding their pets and other of the defenseless. The post got lost. Vets do a remarkable job at euthanizing pets. The trick will be to have vets and other end-of-life professionals in our close-knit communities.”

    Yes vets do a very fine job. I had to have a St. Bernard that weighed 200 pounds euthanized and I stayed with him while the shot was given. He was out almost immediately and died quietly within 5 mins. I am continually amazed that to kill a human on death row takes three drugs and endless complaining about how it is done, when vets have been doing this quickly and painlessly for yearss.

    However having a vet or end of life professional in a community does no good if the drugs cannot be had. And when things collapse, transportation networks will cease (or vice versa) and every doctor, vet and drugstore will no longer be able to get supplies.

    The book One Second After (grid collapse from EMP attack) one of the first places people go when they realize what has happened and that they are stuck with what they have, is the drugstore. Even the hero goes for his daughter has diabetes. A huge fight occurs in the store as people who are desperate to get supplies of their drugs loose the veneer of “civil” behavior. Another place that is hit is the nursing home, also for drugs.

    In our day of instant delivery and low inventories to keep investment costs down, most stores and I presume vets do not have a large inventory of supplies – and with certain drugs large purchases to prepare for collapse would likely arouse interest by some regulatory agency.

    So for most delivering the family pet from starvation will mean doing it yourself.

    Meanwhile on the food front – particularly corn
    This article at the link has a bunch of stuff about pricing but the important words are here “This tight supply scene makes the delayed start to the 2013-14 corn crop very significant. Processors and feeders can’t consume what has not been harvested yet. “Even if we have a massive new crop coming, it does nothing for usage until it is off the field.”

    In other words, especially for the livestock industry, the prices are not all that matters, nor are projections for this year’s crop. What matters is that last year’s corn crop might run out before the new crop comes in. Already ethanol plants have been idled. I think we may see an early sell off of livestock again this year.

  • Curtis A. Heretic, you’re correct, partially. Methane is about 100 times more powerful than CO2, 1.8 times 100 = 180. That gets us to about 580 ppm equivalent of CO2.

  • Kathy said:

    “In our day of instant delivery and low inventories to keep investment costs down, most stores and I presume vets do not have a large inventory of supplies – and with certain drugs large purchases to prepare for collapse would likely arouse interest by some regulatory agency.”

    I tried to address this issue in the post that got lost (and I was too disgusted to write again) by suggesting that these supplies needed to be “locked” in (bought and stored) from now. But you have partly addressed that contingency. I do believe, however, that sympathetic vets can begin hoarding supplies starting today. If we cultivate some sympathetic supplier, that could help too. Since corruption and mismanagement reign now, and since everybody is looking out for a buck, I’d expect there to be loopholes through which drugs can be attained before it’s too late. But that doesn’t rule out learning to euthanize on our own. What I’d suggest is that we take the first step to do any of these things, starting now.

  • @ Ozman


    @ Artleads

    That’s what I meant about you living in a fantasy world disconnected from reality.

    You appear to admit, in the previous thread that you know nothing about climate science , or anything else, for that matter.

    And now you recommend stocking up with drugs ?

    So are you going to advise us to all become preppers and stock up with ALL the vital essentials of civilisation to last us for, erm, X number of years ?

    Perhaps you need to go away and think this through for a few days and come back again.

  • @Artleads,

    When I moved to Albuquerque in 1992, people would talk about how the city “sits on top of an infinite lake of water.” It was hard not to scream in response, “Excuse me, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!!” I tore out the front lawn of every house I lived in and planted drought tolerant native plants, mulched with recycled cardboard and pecan hulls – a somewhat radical act at the time. Recently visited the old neighborhood – fewer lawns than ever! And the the neighborhood looks so interesting and eclectic without identical landscapes in front of every home. My oaks, pinons, and mountain mahoganies are big and beautiful…

  • @ Guy

    Are you going to allow U to continue to beat up on people? This latest attack on Artleads is completely unnecessary.

  • At the risk of being gauche, I can’t help but notice that the latest Classified Ad sounds suspiciously familiar. And it *is* posted in a public space. So, Guy, are you moving? You alluded to difficulties at the Age of Limits Conference. Not asking for details. But in general…..are you moving? Are you working on an essay about it? Just wondering.

    Those of us who wanted to discuss suicide methods (both for ourselves and for our pets) kinda got dismissed by others on a thread many months ago. Perhaps now is time to resurrect the discussion?

    If I recall correctly, we were looking at plants, poppies being my particular favorite. This is something I’d really like to see addressed.

    As others have noted, time is short.

  • @Artleads re: medicines/healthcare issues

    I believe it was BC Nurse Prof (Erin) posted a link to Health After Oil last year.
    It is an excellent blog with important information. I plan to take another look myself.

    I found NBL due to awareness of positive feedbacks/tipping points that were being triggered, and after reading for a few months, decided to ask some of the healthcare professionals here for any advice on medical issues, as my 5 y/o son has life threatening food allergies, anaphylaxis, severe environmental allergies, and asthma. I have asthma, severe migraines, and a genetic blood-clotting disorder, and since then, my now 2 y/o has developed asthma after our exceptional drought that lasted from last summer through April of this spring which caused severe dust and poor air quality. Needless to say, it is our biggest concern, and there aren’t a lot of answers. I fill my sons prescriptions as often as I can and have been able to collect some back-up supply, but epi-pens expire pretty quickly, and altogether, his meds run around $650 each time I fill them. Luckily, the three little ones have health insurance for now, but I don’t, and I have to get very creative in paying for my own healthcare and meds. When you start really looking (which I’m sure you already know) our entire system is so intertwined with oil, just that piece of the collapse puzzle is enough to do lethal damage on a grand scale.
    Anyway, I thought I would pass along the link in case it might be of use.

  • @ medical needs after collapse

    As with any widespread catastrophe, the weak and the sick will die off first. Absent full scale militarization, next will be the “nice guys” at the hands of the “not so nice guys.” Then the “not so nice guys” will be killed by the “really bad guys.”

    The problem with this whole thing is this: No matter how you slice it, no matter how the events unfold, there is no way to avoid a very nasty scenario, the only question is: Will it be 100 times worse than the very nastiest thing you can imagine or 1,000 times worse?

    If you are still in the US, you need to get out now. If you can’t escape, then burrow deep into the ground and be prepared to stay there for 100 years.

  • wildwoman, that’s not my place for sale. But I’ll certainly entertain offers.

  • Wildwoman – I tried poppies – they won’t grow here. They are legal to plant tho for those in other climates. We had them in my yard growing up in the North.

    Artleads – the book Final Exit discusses self euthanasia for people with terminal cancer disease. The method with sleeping pills and bags would probably work for dogs. Read the book. I hadn’t thought of that but I think it would work if you can get the pet asleep using sleeping pills. Guns of course is the usual country method of dispatching an animal.

  • Joe, why do think things will be so much worse in the US? I expect all countries to collapse at approximately the same time. I think it would be a huge mistake for Americans to emigrate to a foreign country at this point. Ten years ago maybe but not now, its too late.

  • @ulvfugl

    How come Guy is the ONLY person on the whole planet, the whole internet, who is saying this stuff? Why is it taking so long for everyone else to catch up?

    IMHO a lot of well meaning people are yet to overcome the small hurdle of first accepting the data, it is difficult because of what it implies.

    But then, there is also the flip side to it, once you do accept the data and the implications… well, talking about it becomes quite meaningless. That is my reason for not spreading the truth anymore. People don’t want the truth and I am beginning to think that most people don’t need the truth.

  • @ Tom F:

    Because all the hillbillies in US have guns – and the inner cities are full of disaffected racialized youth and young adults who just can’t wait for social order to break down. It’s going to be worse in US than anywhere else by a factor of a million.

    @ KK:

    I agree – the data is overwhelming – AND the point that has been already made is we that do accept the data are being lumped in with the crackpot conspiracy theorists and the “End is Nigh” crowd. This blog has it’s share of commenters talking about UFOs and chemtrails but the majority appear to be well-educated adults that have not come to the NTE conclusion lightly.

  • Guy, thanks.

    Lydia, will be thinking of you tomorrow. Scary!

    Kathycassandra, poppies grow well in Michigan and I hope KY too.

    Joe, as Guy has pointed out, most people will die of thirst while waiting for water to come out of the tap. Most of the inner city youths have never been outside the city limits. But yes, Americans are amazingly well armed! Rural or urban, hillbilly or city slicker.

  • methane is between 72 (IPCC) and 105 (Goddard Institute for Space
    Studies) times as powerful a ghg as CO2 over a 20 year period

  • Today’s weather in Tucson. Heat record… Again…

    As for stockpiling drugs, for medical or “existential” reasons, they do have expiration dates. And heat affects them.
    We cannot be 100% certain of the time frame, give or take 5-10-30 years.
    Drugs don’t last that long. I have heard potato chips have very short expiry dates also…

    Yes, people will lose their civilized veneer very quickly in a disaster or long emergency. Here in one of the wealthiest counties in the country where I happened to land 26 years ago, we have had a major hurricane event the past three years in a row. Followed by a really bad storm… Resulting in days & weeks of power outages… Last year I heard of wealthy women fighting over power outlets at a local library so they could charge their cell phones and laptops. Even though the cell towers were still down… (face palm)
    Imagine if they had to fight over actual food or water? Our stores this year ran out of food! I was stocked up and missed all the fun in the aisles.
    I can’t wait to see what happens this coming fall… It’s so exciting!!
    I’m staying in and hunkering down with my kids and friends as usual, but I expect to hear great stories. I’ll fill you all in! I promise!

    As a good friend said the other day, if Apocalypse gets really bad, there’s always the Tappan Zee Bridge that spans the Hudson River. It’s been a proven existential exit for several. Though, frankly, I feel suicide is a cop out; unless your kids start to look like giant turkey legs and links of sausage hovering in front of you. Then definitely take a leap… Please.

    But having gone through the emotional and intellectual wranglings and torments of this predicament for a mere month (it’s been an interesting month), I’m finally coming to the other end of the perspective, rising out of my despair and horror. That doesn’t mean my perspective won’t mutate again. I reserve the right to change my emotions when I choose.

    I don’t think much can be done about climate collapse in any way, either to prevent or survive it. Trying to survive the Fall will take so much effort in the here and now, I might miss something wonderful. And as Guy has shared so movingly, it doesn’t always work out the way we might hope or expect…

    I had been contemplating a move to New Zealand. But hinting a lifestyle change to my family resulted in moans and eye rolling. They won’t go. So I’m stuck here.
    Though “stuck” may not be the right verbiage. “Settled” here, and accepting that fate, is more like it. I accept that I and my family will probably die of radiation poisoning. Okay. So be it. Bring it on. So we’ll go together, not alone. And hopefully with some good friends at our sides too! What a way to go.

    Because survival ultimately means what? Extending my family’s misery by a decade? By a year? A month?
    And what if in all the science and statistics we missed something? And by some odd miracle the Fall does not happen? (I seriously doubt such good fortune will befall us, but you never know) The Abyss streaks safely past us like a giant asteroid that astronomers miscalculated its impact by a fraction, leaving millions shattered at the bottoms of bridges and cliffs… Ooops.

    My new directive-if I may so bold as to share, and it is an honor to share with this readership to share with people willing to look into the Abyss, Ballsy!-is to live sarcastically, boldly, presently, compassionately (to those worthy), offering my shoulders to friends whenever they need to cry (there’s a lot of that lately), doing whatever my kids want to do (they are fun!), apologizing when I’m not even wrong just to keep the peace (unless I don’t feel like it, and that’s okay too), speaking my mind (nothing new there) and swearing a hell of a lot more (kinda nothing new there either), wearing more purple, more bright colors, less clothes (who knew that could be fun?), telling people they’re doing something stupid and not worrying what they think of me for being honest, saving time for those who are precious to me, dismissing those who are thorns, toxic, stupid, and openly honoring those who are giving a damn with the very beating of their hearts. Like Guy.

    But stockpiling drugs? Other than maybe some aspirin and Tylenol with codine, not so much. When it becomes clear it’s a Zombie apocalypse, then the existential solution will be considered. I know exactly how to do it for me. It’s a cultural thing.
    I understand it will be different for each person, how they choose to demure from life…Or not. I wouldn’t dream of questioning those personal choices. And I have had the method implanted in my mind since childhood, amazingly.

    In my Greek culture’s legends we have a true story of a village of women who were about to be taken over by Turkish Ottomans. Their men were all dead and gone already. It meant enslavement, rape, torture, watching their sons and daughters being murdered or who knows what else. These women and their children chose to do the ultimate circle dance. They dressed in their finest, clasped hands and sang together and danced off a cliff to their penultimate freedom. When I was seven years old going to school in Greece my grade re-enacted this leap to freedom for our school’s parents. I was one of the dancers, in dark green satin dress with a circle of pink and white flowers in my hair and as we each took our leaps we disappeared off the edge of the stage. That story had it’s intended impact on my mind and sticks with me to this day. Seared even more profoundly with the knowledge that my grandfather was a freedom fighter and helped secure my people’s fragile freedom (instantly handed over to the European Patriarchy, sigh).

    So, oddly enough, I’ve practiced for this exit already. I’m ready and I know when the time will be right for my family to dance off the stage of life.
    Until then, we are gonna have some fun!!

    Oh and if it’s a Methane Apocalypse so much the better! We’ll just go to sleep! Yay!
    “Hoping” for *that* scenario!! :D

  • Guy,

    Thanks, now I see how you get the answer.

    As the math teachers say, “show all of your work.”

  • hamlet Says:
    June 27th, 2013 at 7:52 am

    Listened to them both. Really good interviewers.

    Thanks Hamlet.

    Also now up is a 2 part Interview with Gail Tverberg of Our Finite World and coming next week, another 2 part Interview with George Mobus of Question Everything.

    Check the Diner Podcast Page for other coming Podcasts.


  • @ Roger

    This latest attack on Artleads is completely unnecessary.

    This began on the previous thread. I happen to think that getting as accurate assessment of our predicament as possible is of major importance.

    It’s extremely hard work. The sort of sloppy handwaving that Artleads substitutes for thinking does not help. I don’t have much patience with people who push themselves forward and show they have no idea at all what they are talking about.

    Vets do a remarkable job at euthanizing pets. The trick will be to have vets and other end-of-life professionals in our close-knit communities.

    I grew up on a farm, I’ve worked at a zoo, I’ve been with animals all my life. I’ve hunted. I’ve seen so many animals die. I’ve had to shoot my own dog, like murdering the one you love the most. I’ve had to have my dog euthanised with needles into her front legs. The dog I have now is getting ancient and will die soon. I’ve known a few vets who should never be allowed near any animal, they were so incompetent. Just like doctors and any other profession, there are good, bad, mediocre, and appalling.

    What offends me is this flippant cloud cuckoo unrealistic attitude that imagines fantasy communities, where there will be someone on hand to fit every need, as it were.

    It’s hard enough to set up ANY community, of any kind, even a marriage… it’s hard enough to find any stable community anywhere that will accept anybody new. All this stuff of Artleads is just dreaming, imaginary nonsense. Until you actual DO it, and it’s up and running it’s useless junk, vapourware.

    @ Reverse Engineer

    Remember you from the Burning Platform years ago. Nice to see you around. I never commented there but I remember the ‘7 million died’ war ;-) Excellent interviews.

  • These podcasts are priceless and are an excellent record of information. Listening to Guy’s philosophy on “how” to be and “what” to do is really helpful.
    We should all go join the Peace Corps with Guy.
    Wouldn’t that be a hoot? What do you think Guy? Peace Corps time?

    I keep getting asked “Why does he do it? if there’s no point, why does he bother?”
    In his “Life History and Philosophy” interview he explains it eloquently.

    I’m just amazed that there is so little research being done on the positive feedbacks.

  • IMF: ‘Climate change will create jobs’
    [“]You talk about green growth — that will be associated with particular jobs for which the training has not yet been invented and needs to be aggregated and put together,” Lagarde said Thursday.

    Feeling that “need money” itch?
    Here’s where to find that new niche:
    Learn the secrets of doom,
    And then one day, boom!
    You’ll find yourself suddenly rich.

  • Joe, re. leaving the USA. I strongly disagree that its a good idea. Americans have guns but guns are everywhere. So are knives, machetes, axes. There is more than one way to kill a person and all of them will be used. Big cities will be horrible after the collapse. But will New York be any worse than Sao Paulo Brazil? I don’t think so.

    I am 54 years old, physically fit, wife no children born and raised in America and live on a small farm in rural central Vermont. I grow 75% of my own food. Where would you suggest I go that my short term prospects would be any better.

    If you are a multi-millionaire and you are concerned about possible fallout from exploding nuke plants or nuclear war and can afford a 90 acre ranch in South America like the Bush family, then I would say go for it. I also agree that the southern hemisphere should fare somewhat better from climate change in the short term. Otherwise I think a small farm in Vermont is just as good as a small farm in New Zealand.

  • Ulvfugl,

    I have met so many people, when presented with a problem will say, with the wave of a hand, “Well, you just do such and so.”
    I reply, “OK, show me. Go ahead and do it.” They look at me kind of odd, and say, “Well, I didn’t mean me. You should do it.”

    Talk is cheap.

  • Rob

    Your framing is very suspect.

    I doubt there could be a consensus for NBL in people wishing for 90% human decline. Many see that scenario as a possible silver lining to collapse, because it ‘could’ reduce carbon based energy demands, and therefore the planet would not be subject to increased GHG in the near term.
    But your framing…

    “Excuse me, but isn’t the goal to have 90% of Earth’s population die as quickly as possible…?”

    is not adding to discussion in a clear manner. If it goes unchallenged it will undoubtedly add to a perception that NBL is defined by a terrorist based ideology, and that can get dysfunctional in your and our legal system.

    So how about inquiring without framing the issue as a wish, or desire. Only a crazy person, and I mean someone without empathy and social conscience not someone with radical ideas that point to fundamentals, would wish such a thing.

    You are free to, it is clear. But please, I ask you to be sensible, and clear the discussion of such framing, unintended or otherwise, as the trolls will seize on such inadvertent pseudo-consensus statements and use it to build a case for this site to be branded ‘the bad guys’.

    Very few people are against ‘life’, which includes our own two armed form of it. That is my view.


    It is only meaningless if you are looking solely at the data, ad not at a bigger picture, which you claim to want to see. Open your eyes, this place, this Earth, no matter how beautiful and wonderful we feel it is, is a ‘death trap’ and great traditions, Zen included, have seen this, and attempted to ‘do’ something about it.

    With all the talk here and elsewhere about how messed up humans are, my view is one of functional messed up, not structural.

    I also believe we are perfect, no need of Nazi eugenics, it has all been done.
    We are the vehicle to get off this place. Our bodies will not come with us, they are only adapted to the planet’s terrestrial location,and bound to it.

    The human genome is all we need now, but we just need to functionally realize it if we want to get off the wheel of reincarnation.

    All the bodily systems , the glands and nervous system open up as we grow to maturity, and by that I mean psycho-physical maturity.

    We realize ourselves off the planet, and the old Hebrew saying…

    “The meek shall inherit the Earth”

    is not an injunction to be meek, it means only the courageous get to leave and not bed drawn back.

    Why would one want to leave such a wonderful place as our Earth?

    That will be hard for most to answer if they have yet to experience the complete love bliss of the realized heart, and know it is not going to encounter death or suffering.
    It is easy to believe that suffering is caused by the world, and its active agents, human and otherwise, but the most radical ‘truth’ of our situation is the hard to understand idea that we create our own suffering.
    Reactivity to this idea is not going to change it.
    The path is clear now.
    This beautiful place is but what Plato pointed to when he spoke of shadows of the fire on the cave wall.

    The fire is where the action is, jump in if you dare.
    Best wishes .

  • Tom F, I picked central VT as a place somewhat more resilient than others in which I’ve lived. Are you a native VTer? If you would like to get in touch, ask Guy for my email; maybe we and Brad V. can meet up and compare notes…

  • Best of wishes Lidia

  • @ ulvfugl

    “@ Reverse Engineer

    Remember you from the Burning Platform years ago. Nice to see you around. I never commented there but I remember the ’7 million died’ war ;-) Excellent interviews.”

    Great folks to interview with interesting perspectives make it easier, but thanks also.

    The Napalm Contests on TBP back when I was blogging with Jim were LEGENDARY. A bit calmer on the Diner, you might say Hi sometime there.


  • @ Curtis A. Heretic

    “Well, I didn’t mean me. You should do it.”

    Hahaha, you’ve met some too ?

    Yes, they are everywhere. Like on the previous thread when I pointed out to Tony that it can take twenty years to get a good mature fruit tree, and got the retort that he’d seen lots of forest gardens with crops, much younger than that.

    The point is that it has to be YOUR forest garden. Not some other forest garden that you’ve seen somewhere. Because, when the whole system collapses, and there’s no petrol and no food in the shops, people are not going to say ‘Hey everybody, don’t worry, come on over and eat everything in our forest garden’. Are they ?

    A theoretical forest garden, a forest garden in a book, or on youtube, or in your imagination is very, very easy. A REAL forest garden that fills your belly ?

    So, if you didn’t plant YOUR forest garden already, five years ago, so it’s already beginning to feed you, this year, you are already five years late. And you’ve missed out on learning all the stuff you need to know, by five years. One lifetime is a very short time when it comes to learning stuff like that. You really need to start when you are at your mother’s knee. It takes generations.

    But starting now is better than never starting at all. Time passes quickly. I have twenty year old fruit trees. Seems like only last week I planted those. Now I am old. I planted many more about five years ago. My dog dug all the holes for them. Now she is old. Too old for digging holes. She likes to sleep most of the day.

    Of course, it’s different in the tropics, to temperate. But we don’t have that luxury now, we have climate chaos, with a frost in midsummer in Holland killing the vegetables.

    @ Ozman

    It is only meaningless if you are looking solely at the data, ad not at a bigger picture, which you claim to want to see. Open your eyes, this place, this Earth, no matter how beautiful and wonderful we feel it is, is a ‘death trap’ and great traditions, Zen included, have seen this, and attempted to ‘do’ something about it.

    Hahaha, another cuckoo in the clouds.

    Small picture, big picture, oh dear.

    Tell me, cuckoo, what does zen attempt to do about it ?

    Btw, you threw your money away buying that David Graeber book didn’t you. You either completely failed to understand the import of the contents or you never read it.

  • Lidia. Best.

    It’s still like a jungle here. Tropical downpours arrive every afternoon between 3:00 and 5:00 pm. My gravel driveway washes out from the torrential rain. Muggy, high humidity and the surface water table is right up there. The other day something was observed in the meadow and it turned out to be a snappin’ turtle. Man did I have a laugh over that! I had to pick it up and examine it. Beautiful colors. Orange and yellow bottom with mottled browns and grays. Prehistoric looking. I brought it over to the edge of my pond and it dove right in. I left it alone and came back to see if it was still in the pond about 3 or 4 hours later and the turtle seemed to be enjoying itself or at least at ease. That was also humorous. I’ll have to tell my male friends to be careful whilst skinny dipping.

    Great news today! Honey bees were observed on the white clover that is absolutely flourishing in my locale and a brown bat was observed at evening twilight. Such a relief to see the brown bat! It likes to hang out over the pond cause that’s where the bugs are. I hope there are more to follow. Last year three brown bats were observed and they stayed well into the fall before they migrated South or to the nearest, safe cave to hibernate for the winter months. They are definitely late to arrive this year but better late than never.

    So far the vegetable crops are doing well. Lettuce crops, peas, radish and spinach have been outstanding this year. Lots of free salad and I love to eat fresh greens. Mmmmmmmm.

    Planted parsnip seeds several days ago for a late fall-winter harvest.

    Onions are liking it as are potatoes, bell peppers, cayenne peppers, butternut squash, and cucumbers.

    Prunus x ‘Red Haven’ peach tree had to be thinned of fruit as do Pyrus x ‘Hosui’ and Pyrus x ’20th Century’ Asian pear cultivars.
    Excellent strawberry-rhubarb pies over the past couple of weeks and many jars of canned strawberry jam are ready for that future kick of carbos so often needed in the morning upon beginning a busy day usually outside.

    What’s flowering now:

    Cornus kousa – Kousa Dogwood – Outstanding! White Flowers virtually covering the branches. Edible fruit in the fall season.

    Catalpa speciosa – Northern Catalpa – Clumps of white, pendulous flowers. Amazing and just gorgeous! That’s the tree that looks like it has long string beans hanging from it during the late summer/fall season. A fairly large tree.

    Syringa reticulata – Japanese Tree Lilac – White flowers, fragrant.
    A tree of small to medium stature.

    Philadelphus coronarius – Sweet Mock Orange – White, quite fragrant flowers. Shrub.

    Rosa multiflora – Japanese Rose – Invasive species. White to pink small flowers in clusters, fragrant. Will scent the ambient air heavily if weather conditions are favorable. Large shrub.

    Hemerocallis x ‘Stella D’Oro’ – Stella D’Oro Day Lilly. Rich, yellow flower. The plant will bloom for an extended period of time. Mildly fragrant. Caught the deer twice today getting into those. Another humorous moment.

    Spiraea japonica var. alpina – Japanese Alpine Spirea – Soft pink flowers covering the entire small deciduous shrub. Very nice.

    There are others but these have been observed recently and those I remember off hand.

    A superb year for vermiculture, the production of worm castings by earthworms to the uninitiated. I use the indigenous earthworms because I use IMO – indigenous micro-organisms in my gardening efforts. Like the farmer said, you have to work with Nature. My leaf compost pile consists primarily of Betula alleghaniensis, Betula lenta, Quercus rubra, Acer saccharum, Acer rubrum and occasional Fagus grandifolia leaves. Earthworm castings are used in aerated compost tea recipes as a fundamental ingredient. A five gallon brew which can treat up to an acre of land depending upon your target (bacterial, fungal or balanced recipe), soil conditions and dilution rates.


    You need to get Papaver somniferum seeds. Plant them in the fall and the plants will be ready the following summer. They’ll come up perennially (but not necessarily in the same location) if you leave a few plants go to seed every year.

    Was entertained by The Robert Cray Band last evening at a small venue. Woo Hoo! Great concert!

  • Tom, that Traffic was good, but consider this one. I thought it Steve Winwood’s finest song, more than a mood, but such a mood-maker! I wanted to invent MTV, and make a movie for this track, long before there was MTV. There were songs for going up, and songs for coming down. And songs for just, just telling you where you are, after it’s all over. If you think about it, think back, we’ve been told many, many times what’s coming, and where we’re going:

    Headphones, please…

    No Time To Live

    As time begins to burn itself upon me
    And the days are growing very short
    People try their hardest to reject me
    But in a way, their conscience won’t be caught

    Something’s happening to me day by day
    My pebble on the beach is getting washed away
    I’ve given everything that was mine to give
    And now I’ll turn around and find that there’s no time to live

    So often I have seen that big wheel of fortune
    Spinning for the man who holds the ace
    There’s many who would change their places for him
    But none of them have ever seen his lonely face

  • ulvfugl

    “Tell me, cuckoo, what does zen attempt to do about it ?”

    Zen attempts to limit suffering by withdrawing identification with the mind, as though there was some other place to be. This is a vain hope that invulnerability to emotion equals self realisation. It does not, and withdrawal to a way station of ‘no hurt’ has proven ineffective, and provides no ‘release’ from the ‘death trap’.

    One of the great sayings I was told by a great woman I knew was:

    ‘Love shields us from nothing.’

    So love is not a protection, it is the wound that draws us beyond our limitations. The greater the wound, the bigger the picture.

    As an aside, the most famous line in contemporary sci-fi movies:

    ‘Terminator-I’ll be back’

    This echos the machine like nature of reincarnation. Until we release the bond with this form, this Earth, we will return, again and again.

    Doesn’t have to be scientific to be true!

  • @ Ozman

    Hahahaha. Citation needed. Quote a zen master or shut up.
    That’s just Ozman talking total bollocks from ignorance, as per usual.
    Ridiculous rubbish. Philosophy deals with truth, science deals with probability.

  • Speaking of forests –
    They will burn, adding further to warming, causing more to burn.

    Sam Carana still running on hopium, but those here who want some hopium can look at his plan to save us while there is still time (at the end of the article). The rest of us can make the best of each day. For some that might be DGR, for others enjoying blueberries while the climate still allows. Whatever…..

  • ulvfugl


    “Quote a zen master or shut up”

    I see you are back to ordering people around again.

    Ho Hum.

    What makes you think I need a Zen Master to reference? Can’t you feel the truth of something without a certificate to prove it?

    Poor form Zen man.

    You have so much to offer others, it is strange how it is devoid of gracious feeling.

    Now, this one I must have absorbed somewhere very early on in this life …

    ” Your own Self-realization is the greatest service you can render the world ”

    Ramana Maharshi

    Good enough, to have such a great master help us out.

    Just spend a microsecond looking into those eyes and it may be communicated.

    ‘Ramana 3 sw.jpg’

    ..or these…..

    ‘Adi Da Samraj: Not a Ding-Dong, Twinkie Way of Life…’

    Always good to watch to the end…

    ‘Adi Da Samraj: There is Only God!’

    Just the eyes are enough reference…..

    So let us not make this competitive, dear ulvfugl, let us just agree we see something different is going on ‘here’, and give some room for this name-calling-less space to do its thing.


    Sorry for pushing a barrow, however, this is why I first commented here, because the POV of the greater spirit was not being put amongst the ideas of environmental degradation, human pollution of the planet and then NTE. It is not a complete picture of reality to just look at the data, because it is not a complete description of what we are entangled in here.

    We are here! A great conscious experience is going on in everyone, it is just it is not very mature in most of us.

    Notwithstanding the religion-washing position now achieved which the 21 century tries to maintain, what do ‘we’ presume comes after ordinary ‘adulthood’? Economic obligation and reproduction, (now Debt and Overpopulation)? Is that all there is? What about Love? Is love real?

    In older cultures, in tribal and Hunter/Collector cultural contexts the rites to adulthood were only a great beginning in terms of cultural and world wisdom. They led to stages of ‘elder’, ‘great elder’, ‘Sharman’ and even beyond the individual culture/context itself, to ‘Sage’ and ‘Avatar’.

    I may be mixing terms, or picking from distinct traditions here, but that is not inherently a problem, if one accepts these terms point to a significant graduation of great maturity, great understanding and great realisation.

    One of the things which is not widely known is that these two functions ‘we’ like to deify and pervade as ideal in Scientific discourse, the Thinking and Sensation functions, are very easily corroborated by public observation, and objectively verified. Therefore, they can be held up to public challenge. It is red, and it is a jumper, are Sensation and Thinking statements about an object.

    How you feel about the red jumper and what it may mean are only able to be investigated by subjective functions like Feeling and Intuition. ‘I don’t like the red jumper’, is a Felling statement, is subjective, and not too difficult to arrive at. What the red jumper that I don’t like means is a little hard to get to.

    I suggest that these two subjective functions, Feeling and Intuition, which have been excommunicated from the reality set by Scientism based culture, are what begins to become the main mode of spiritual awakening and transformation for individuals in the later ‘adult’ stages of life. That transformation is not a process that can be subjected to ‘objective’ scrutiny and critical dissection because it is contingent on non-time based replication of process, and also it arises within the conscious vehicle, us.

    That is why Scientific objectivism is incorrect as a ‘presumption’ about reality, and also why Science has excluded subjective human functions from reality. It is also why Scientific dogma has no explanation or understanding of ‘life’ and ‘consciousness’.

    So I say again, the model of this world that is being applied and used to interpret ‘data’ of the biosphere is incomplete, and therefore, the conclusions about the prospects of ‘our future’ are not going to be close to accurate, for as with the sea, the future is not set, it is always is in motion, and our attitude, both individually and collectively makes a great difference!

    Were scientific data and scientific models correctly describing REALITY, I would agree, completely, we are cooked, done, finito, roasted and charred. But it isn’t IMHO.

    The point about the lineage of ‘elders’ is that the subjective functions of human consciousness I mention, Feeling and Intuition, have always been acknowledged in sacred but hidden ritualistic circumstances and ceremonies BECAUSE they are not repeatable and rely on in-the-moment experiences.

    If you have ever experienced real synchronistic events, you understand implicitly that that event will never be repeatable, never, and it pertains to the moment. But your consciousness was the witness and the local frame of reference to the event. You were there!

    One deck of playing cards, shuffled and randomly arranged. 52 cards, 26 red, 26 black. What is the conventional probability of correctly predicting(guessing) one card after the other as red or black, without seeing the fronts, in a row?

    I don’t need to know the precise ‘odds’,( but if someone can tell me that would be great), but it is to some people not going to be possible to do. or only possible one time in some many billions of attempts by everyone, no?

    I did it once in early January 1990 in Nepal. And it was the first time I tried to do it. That and many other things made me ask some hard questions.

    ‘Real’ enough for me.


  • @Henry

    “Tom, that Traffic was good, but consider this one. I thought it Steve Winwood’s finest song, more than a mood, but such a mood-maker! I wanted to invent MTV, and make a movie for this track, long before there was MTV. There were songs for going up, and songs for coming down. And songs for just, just telling you where you are, after it’s all over. If you think about it, think back, we’ve been told many, many times what’s coming, and where we’re going:”

    Absolutely Henry! Back then the message was in the music.

  • ogardener, thank you.

    Kathy Cassandra, how about oleander in your neck of the woods?

    All, ideas about dosage or preparation?

  • Great call Henry! I had forgotten that one. Remember the group Spirit (with the great song Nature’s Way)? There were plenty of musical prophets back then from P. Simon (Sound of Silence) through Dylan (All Along the Watchtower) to even “pop” groups like the Grateful Dead, and especially Pink Floyd. Post ’em when you feel the urge my friend. Many of us will bathe in reverie upon hearing them.

    ogardener: currently we here in S.E. PA are experiencing the same tropical weather you describe – high humidity with severe thunderstorms blowing through late in the day (it’s been this way all week). My peppers aren’t doing very well, the grass is still having trouble growing out back and my tomatoes are just showing their first fruits, but the lower leaves are starting to develop that blight or rust that’s been so prevalent around here. Like your garden, my cucumbers and squash are going crazy (with all the rain) and my beans are reachin’ for the sky. I completely agree that the message used to be in the music (both lyrically and sound-wise)back in the day. Some today is like that I guess, but it’s harder to find, and some genres don’t lend themselves well to transmitting an underlying message of impending calamity (like “club” music, but there are probably exceptions).

    BtD: priceless, as usual! Thanks for the laugh.

    Lidia: our thoughts are with you for your surgery today and for a rapid recovery of an invasive benign cyst (hopefully).

    Tom F.: I agree that our demise as a species will be in similar circumstances everywhere – all as a result of climate change, overpopulation, resources scarcity, and the accompanying affects on food production (or lack thereof), disease (like pandemics) and pestilence (like Emerald Ash borer), war (our typical human reaction), noxious gases (ozone, methane and hydrogen sulfide to name a few), earthquakes, superstorms, volcanic activity and the rest.

  • Roger:

    “@ Guy…Are you going to allow U to continue to beat up on people? This latest attack on Artleads is completely unnecessary.”

    Thanks for the consideration. No, U doesn’t bother me. He should guard against stroke, however. I’ll have to watch it too, since it runs in my family and I have not the longest ever fuse.

    I hope rancor will be reduced today, which I think is a good time to send positive, peaceful thoughts for those who are facing immediate trouble.

  • check out http://www DOT

    I thought the poppies that we grow in US were not “opium” poppies…? There are all kinds of poppies including the papaver somniferum, look on ebay for seeds you only have to buy seeds once since the poppys lifespan is mostly about the seeds in the pods so super easy to get 1000’s of seeds from one plant, some to use in tea or other things but I think there’s only one poppy that is used for such things so you better know what your doing cuz some poppies will make you sick.

    Oleander? I know it’s poisonous, the question is: Is it painless?

    How about just eating a bunch of random wild mushrooms? If you can find them – we have some really funky mushrooms growing in our yard – tall white columns, no head, and little black sprinkles all over the top.

    Why not sleeping pills? It seems that if you just take a bunch of sleeping pills you will get sick and start vomiting. Also, I’ve heard that Benzodiazepine sleeping pills will not kill you no matter how many you take. And the two different non benzodiazepine sleeping pills that can be prescribed most likely wont kill you either. Do not take an overdose of paracetomol as this will cause liver damage or failure, If you live you will have terribble liver problems and if you’re in pain they may not be able to do much for your pain because your liver cannot metabolise the painkillers.

    I’ve also heard that just freezing to death is pretty painless – you just go to sleep and that’s it. So, if you can get into a below freezing environment…

  • @ OzMan:

    I was being facetious. However, it is clear that the prescribed solution (here as well as DGR, JMG, Mobus, Hedges, et al) is to get rid of industrial civilization – and most put the resulting dead at about 90 to 95% of the Earth’s population.

    People come to the realization in many different ways, but once the light clicks on, the realization that 95% of the population most likely includes ME, yikes!

    So, sans The Solution or any solution, the result is the same, 95%, and possibly 100%, die.

    The hard part of this whole thing is that once you are convinced that unabated industrial civilization will lead us all to massive die-off and possibly NTE then you MUST at least entertain the idea of The Solution which basically means the same thing: a lot of people die.

    So, if TPTB are going to cull our numbers via GMO foods, at least maybe somebody is implementing The Solution.

    You have to ask yourself, if 95% of humanity has to die and we have to dismantle the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization, am I willing to help dismantle and then be killed so that HUMANS might survive? Am I willing to be one of the 95%?

    Yes, I am. Hand me another bowl of that GMO corn and point me to the nearest nuclear power plant decommissioning project.

  • I’ve posted a guest essay by filmmaker Mike Sosebee. It’s here.

  • Roger: This latest attack on Artleads is completely unnecessary.

    As necessary as thorns on an thorn-bush. Among the stigmata of puissant practice gone astray.

  • Final exit pioneered the suicide bag – sit semi upright with bag over head – bag has band of elastic around it. Hold it open with thumbs – take lots of sleeping pills. When you fall asleep hands fall down, bag is sealed by elastic and suffocation ensues. Now the recommend using it with helium, but others have noted that helium is getting scarce. Check their web site and book for details. Lots of details about the pros and cons of various methods and which ones are likely to fail or be painful.

    Then there is which with a little pre-planning (having charcoal on hand) and a bit of duct tape should be available to anyone. Became so popular in Hong Kong that “the Hong Kong Government replaced the traditional countryside charcoal barbecue with an electric grill. Some non-government organizations worked with charcoal retailers to promote the message of “treasure your life” by putting “seek help” labels on the charcoal bags.”

  • @OzMan

    Some form of non-dualism can be very helpful for some of those who are trying to come to terms with the Global Clusterfuck. That process is all about getting past the suffering caused by the ideas. I remember that the Buddha had a bit to say about that.

    It seems to me that once one gets past all the linguistic slicing and dicing, there comes a point where we might realize that words are traps, and that things just are. “Were” and “will be” are only concepts, and concepts are where the suffering comes from. So we might just rise from the cushion and pick up our ax and water bucket again.

    For me, “Eat, drink and be merry” has turned into, “Eat drink and be mindful.”

  • I listened to the interview this morning. Even though I’ve intellectually accepted the reality of NTE, it’s still chilling to hear Guy calmly discuss the gravity of the situation. It’s especially unsettling to hear him speculate how he (and by inference, the rest of us) might actually die due to the resulting environmental disruption. NTE goes from being an abstract proposition to a vivid image. I feel bad for all of humanity and every other living organism that will suffer because of our selfishness and stupidity.

  • Hi everyone,
    Somewhere above Tom referred to the good old Grateful Dead and I couldn’t resist posting this. I think it should be one of the theme songs of the Doomer movement. We miss you Brent… and thanks to you Barlow, your words remind us of what is truly important.

  • woodraven: great choice! Here’s another nominee,

    (Walk Me Out in the) Morning Dew

    This song brought me to tears as a young twenty something on New Years’ eve/early morning on a drive to a country spring to look at the stars with the deer and 3 close friends & i just knew it was all over – these dear friends were going, my family was going, my own life was going; it was the most tragic, crushingly crystal clear feeling – there were no words, it just came over me in complete realization that we’ve gone so far down the wrong track, just looking back at what was and what would never be again i wept at first tears of sorrow but by the end of the song i was grateful for it all.;_ylt=AsBRxRJvU69akzUcgKOQAoObvZx4?fr=yfp-t-900-1-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=grateful%20dead%20walk%20me%20out%20in%20the%20morning%20dew%20video

  • Bob Dylan’s Everything Is Broken is my pick for song of the modern era that sums it all up.

    John Ward’s The Slog blog has been referenced here a couple of times, I encourage people to check it out for the finantial collapse aspects and the witty social observations.

    A thought came to me yesterday as I wondered about both personal nte and the planetary version,re how much more pissed off we’d all
    be if we had done everything right, limiting population and industrial society etc,living in perfect harmony with nature,social justice,world peace, the whole perfect happy thing; AND THEN our limited scientific
    establishment informed us an approaching city sized rock was about to wipe us off the face of the earth in a couple of weeks!

    So how would you spemd your last two weeks in a perfect world?

  • @ Ozman

    “Quote a zen master or shut up”
    I see you are back to ordering people around again.

    Not ordering you around, telling you to quote someone who knows what zen is about, instead of embarrassing yourself with the silly rubbish that you invented, in your comment, above, which has nothing at all to do with zen.

    This :

    Zen attempts to limit suffering by withdrawing identification with the mind, as though there was some other place to be. This is a vain hope that invulnerability to emotion equals self realisation. It does not, and withdrawal to a way station of ‘no hurt’ has proven ineffective, and provides no ‘release’ from the ‘death trap’.

    How stuffed with egotistical conceit and hubris you are that you’ll venture to speak on a subject that you know absolutely nothing about.

    But then you did just the same before when you claimed to be able to ‘debunk science’.
    Unfortunately, your futile magical thinking doesn’t stop the ice melting or stop the fracking or stop the death of the coral and the albatross, nor does it feed anybody.

    It’s just the same old familiar denialist hopium in a different guise, just another cloud cuckoo fantasy, to evade the harsh, bitter reality.

    Sorry, no good, Ozman, won’t do, it’s for children and fools, not responsible adults.
    As for the rest, you want an excuse to promote your guru and evangelise your Hindu religion, just like Robin Datta. Like salesmen selling soap powder or dealers pushing dope.

    That has nothing to do with zen either.

    My own personal answer to you, and to anyone else, fwiw. Zen does not attempt to do anything.

  • Tom, re. Lack of modern music about impending calamity.
    Listened to a Podcast with KMO and  Douglas  Rushkoff, the latter was talking about the immediacy of the medium of social media. Rather than generating stories with some sort of perspective, the eternally real-time modes of expression don’t reflect on the past or plan for a future: they’re in a perpetual now. I’d argue thSis affects our brains. Maybe subconsciously we’ve developed this approach on purpose, knowing subliminally that the stories are effectively ending.

    Paul, this idea about language being the culprit came to mind a few months back, when someone raised the question of where exactly humanity went off the rails.

    In the beginning, there was The Word. !!! Indeed. We are deluded in thinking that any word does not contain, at its core, a lie.

  • ulvfugl

    Its nice to know I’m headed in the right direction. Now I’ve had a proper drubbing from you. Zen, what would you know about something that achieves its goal by not doing anything. Nice trite Koan, very convenient, join a club of nothing doers. Now what would ulvfugl say to anyone here who posited to ‘do’ something about all the mess?
    Do nothing.

    Yeah, that’s mature.

    I am unlikely to take offence to being compared with a drug dealer. Really ulvfugl ??

    You are stretching it.
    My advocacy regarding Adi Da is strictly experience based. Take it or leave it.
    Look for yourself, if you dare.
    What world do you live in. Explain love and consciousness with your Science. …uuuummmmm. I am still listening. Nope, no explanation forthcoming, just a whole lot of ridicule speak and bluster, all that you are good at in this discussion.

    ‘Zen does not attempt to do anything.’

    Yep. How you define Zen seems way more ‘responsibly adult’ now doesn’t it.

    As I said before, “You have so much to offer others, it is strange how it is devoid of gracious feeling.”

    Keep doing that nothing full tilt and you may just get …somewhere.

    As for this…

    ” same old familiar denialist hopium in a different guise, just another cloud cuckoo fantasy, to evade the harsh, bitter reality.”

    So reality is harsh and bitter, needing evading?

    Very telling. I see no harsh reality, I see conditions of existence that can be terrifying or pleasant, the fear or calm is in the one experiencing that reality.

    For the record, I advocate no religion, no belief, just experience. One’s own way down the rabbit hole is likely to be unique, but eventually everyone meets at the way station of fear of death. There we could at least look around and see each other refusing to get on that boat with the blind man holding the pole. But he only takes one at a time, very personal service.

    I like the framing of Gibran, when he writes…. ‘the white wings of death’ for this gives the process of death a kind of positive spin.
    But death is not going to give anyone a break. Not now, not ever. But ‘harsh’ and ‘bitter’ ? Reality is all there is, ever was and ever will be.

    At least I have a plan.


  • I forgot to mention the ‘constant now’ effect as manifested at NBL. A while back some folks were complaining about the repetition and lack of progress or resolution among the comments in the threads here. I think that’s just the unavoidable reflection of our predicament.

  • Thanks, Guy. Sorry about that. I was thinking of the table in this page, which shows an overall CO2e of 473, in 2011, including all “long lived” greenhouse gases. It’s hard to tell but I expect they are using a 100 year time span to calculate the relative forcings, which is fairly stupid, if the actual proportion of methane (or other greenhouse gases) is going up each year (which means that enough is being emitted to replace the methane being broken down as well as to increase the total proportion.


    I agree about not stocking up on all the things one feels one needs from our failed civilisation. We know that we, and the planet, needs civilisation to go away, so trying to hoard those bits of civilisation that we’d like to have misses the point.

    However, I disagree that it’s already 5 years too late to start growing a forest garden. You might be right but you might also be wrong (and, to be fair, you did say better late than never). I’m already amazed that civilisation has lasted this long, so it’s certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility that you could still have another 10+ years to sort yourself. In the meantime, one can be growing annual crops in the understory and saving seed.

  • @ Ozman

    Nothing there worthy of a response, just confusion, muddle, a mess.

    At least attempt to be honest and follow the teaching of the teachers you claim to admire, instead of spreading such silly pitiful junk and trying to pick fights with me.

    @ Tony

    I might be right ? I might be wrong ?

    Look, I know something about that of which I speak. I’ve been into permaculture and forest gardens for a very long time.

    It’s not really about forest gardens is it, it’s about being able to eat every day, or enough days to stay alive, when there is no food to buy in shops. It’s about being able to feed yourself from your own physical work.

    People think this is simple, easy, until they try it. It’s actually rather difficult and hard. Even saving seed. Try it for five years, then tell me whether I’m right or wrong. Assuming that either of us are still alive and there is an internet.

  • @ Lidia

    So you’re still around ?

    Heck. Constant Now ? It’s the Beach of Doom effect. Life on the Edge… :-)

  • Yeah, still here. It’s 3:45am and I’ve been awake for 24 hours now. Operation started at 8:30 or 9:00 and lasted over four hours. They just came in to draw blood, plus they come in to check BP at 4:00am. I dare not sleep because I’ve got a PCA (pain relief that you can control). I’ve seen about nine different nurses wheel through. One tells me that a pain level of 2-3 out of 10 is ok; another insists that I use the pump as much asT possible to “stay ahead of the pain” and allow for the mobility they want from me in the am. Well, once I got ahead of the pain at around midnight, I started to nod off, and set off the vital signs alarm. This beeped for a good ten minutes before I get sick of hearing it and use the nurse call button. Not enough O2 so they put the tube back which they’d taken off me before beddy-bye. Then the alarm goes off again, and stops when I rouse myself. This time it’s low heartbeat. I start watching the monitor and as my eyes start to close and I get that sleepy feeling, my heartbeat goes from 70-80-something to 50 or prob. less, hence alarm. I don’t want to torture my sleeping room-mate with an alarm that no-one reponds to, and I don’t want to experiment with how low my heart rate can go before incurring brain damage or death. The alarm rings in the room, but not at the nurses’ station, go figure. Can’t take oral mere yet since bowels are asleep from epidural.

  • mere = meds

    God, I need sleep!

  • @ Lidia

    An adventure ‘-)

  • Lidia: Great that you’re still with us! Get out of the hospital as soon as you can – it’s dangerous in there. Pleasant recovery, and thanks for your comments above.

    Ulvfugl: interesting musical piece!

  • @Lidia
    Welcome back.

    We are deluded in thinking that any word does not contain, at its core, a lie.

    Here it is musically, from back in the mid-80’s…it’s a catchy, contagious little number, so rock responsibly and don’t bounce yourself off the bed…

  • Guy is Mr. Popularity. Over 500 listens on his Podcast. We figure the World will End when he hits 666. ;)


  • Lydia,

    The low heart rate threat seems to be the most fearsome consideration. I didn’t get everything you said, but can you exchange having more pain (less pain meds) for a little more heart rate stability? And sleep? You seem desperately tired now, so would you be able to sleep through the pain?


  • Lidia are you the same Lidia over at the wizards website, where we were being attacked for having fallen into the “apocalyptic narrative” and then his minions came here to tell us we were “meme infected”? Well you should read what the archdruid is saying now…it’s a new thing I’ve encountered where people say the earth will balance herself out and all will be well. How nice of the Earth to consider the ideal environment for humans (cause we’re so speshull I guess).
    I heard one of the hosts on Guy’s podcast espouse this belief too – is this a new hopium theme or has it been around awhile?

    Anyway, Lidia, I hope you keep getting better.

  • @ Luna

    Thanks for that link.

    Hahaha, yes, it will balance things out. Climate usually re-stabilises after about 80,000 to 100,000 years according to Tad Patzek, and biodiversity typically returns about 10 million years after a mass extinction event.

    I read it. I think man is a fool. The logic is so bad. The positive feedbacks of previous severe perturbations, being countered by negative feedbacks, and therefore life survived, and then again the same pattern more recently, and humans survived, and therefore, we will survive what is coming…

    This is childish !

    What happens is that this civilisation does not, can not, survive the oncoming perturbation. That’s hardly debatable.

    So, what’s left ? Some humans ? Or nohumans ?

    That depends on how severe the perturbation is, or how severe it gets. Not only that, but how FAST it happens.

    It’s true, that we are an incredibly adaptable resilient species, we can live in very hot dry deserts and in the frozen tundra and just about everywhere else. But that’s because we slowly learned, over many, many generations, how to do that. Over thousands of years !

    Not something that city dwellers just jumped up and did, over a few decades.

    According to the NTE scenario we discuss here, and even according to more mainstream scenarios, we can be at 6 deg C by 2100. That’s global average temp, that means totally chaotic climate with much higher land surface temps, NO stable environments anywhere.

    How do you live, for example, in a desert, where it is too hot, much of the time, but then it freezes and you’ve got weeks of snow ? And then a hurricane ? Or a severe flood ? All these twits sitting at their keyboards have to be able to explain how mothers can give birth and feed children until they in turn reach breeding age, in a world where there is no linger ANY predictability at all.

    The previous extreme events happened to hunter gatherers. They knew how to live that way, and the whole world was full of animals and plants. That world has gone forever. Nobody has the skills, and there is nothing to hunt and gather. Civilisation collapses, you’re left with a toxic wasteland and climate chaos. Whatever remains is gratis the 4 Horsemen.

    There’s no time to develop cultures like the Inuit or the San or the other people who lived simple subsistence lifestyles in stable environments over tens of thousands of years. All the wildlife and plant life and forest resources will be GONE.

    I’m happy to concede that small numbers of vigorous hardy young people may find pockets on the planet where survival is possible, even though most of the planet becomes uninhabitable, for an extended period. But the planet does not stop warming, the climate does not stop being chaotic, the oceans do not stop being anoxic, for thousands of years.

    If you look at the speed of the changes, they match and exceed, all the other dramatic mass extinction events in the geological record.

  • @Luna, yes that was me… He didn’t let through the most recent comment I made (around that same time), so I gave up commenting there. I can understand a degree of moderation to maintain civility, but he’s unfairly stacking the deck, which is too bad. I will bop over there to see what’s up lately, but he and Orlov are cowards at heart.

    @Artleads, thanks. Yes, that is my concern tonight. I have not added and will not add any extra doses as of 6pm, although I think there may be a baseline amount going in anyway. I am assured that “the machine will NOT allow me to OD”, which is not precisely enough the concern. I just now ended a slightly tense confab with the nurse-of-the-hour. He promises to reattach the O2/heartrate monitor which a different nurse removed this morning. However, he says he is “not allowed” to set the threshold for less than 45bpm (which of course makes PERfect sense: I can have NO monitor, but I canNOT have a LOW monitor: go figure). He says it’s doctor’s orders, period. While nodding off last night I saw myself go down to 50. I hope my roommate forgives me. Ah, well… She heard me trying to reason with them. The PCA is supposed to come off tomorrow, so if I can get through the next 8-12 hours I should be good to go for the Near Term.
    The funny thing is that the nurse kept coming back to the notion that this was PATIENT-controlled analgesic! Duh! The point is not me controlling the analgesic, the point is what will the analgesic DO to me, over which I have NO control. He didn’t seem to grasp the distinction, nor appreciate that I was not the best person to make the assessment, rather someone with medical training. Seriously, I’m going to e-mail this comment to myself as evidence in case something happens.

    Just like Gail noticing dead trees, I increasingly notice situations in which words no longer have any actual meaning, and I am made to I feel as though I am the crazy one. Another hospital example, actually this happened twice in the space of a week: I was asked to sign a document stating that I had been given a copy of and had read the hospital’s privacy policy. But this was untrue; I had neither been given nor allowed to read the privacy policy. I pointed this out nicely, and in both cases the office critters got angry at me. One said defensively, “no one asks to see that!”, and I laughed, trying to keep things light but insisting, “Really? So everyone who comes here signs this false statement!? That’s pretty odd, wouldn’t you say?” I keep noticing utter detachment from meaning, and I can’t help but think it might be a concrete, but subliminal, symptom of our dead end.

  • Please excuse my third post, which I hope special circumstances warrant.


    After two recent operations (never hhad one till then) I more than empathize.

  • The pain beat me. Pumping “hydromorphone” with the 45bpm heartrate monitor until I can get some sleep. Nurse says he will check in and not to worry. If I croak, boy, will he have egg on *his* face! This isn’t coming from hypochondria, I told him; it’s coming from a backstory where I have had to be more pro-active than I should have had to be every step of the way,
    culminating in counseling the surgeon to order me a second, timed, CT scan of a suspicious adrenal mass visible in the first imaging. Comparing images 15 minutes apart shows the rate at which the injected contrast is flushed from the biological material, with near perfect precision in distinguishing a benign adenoma from a malignancy. Surgeon was going to order an invasive fine-needle biopsy and/or have a general surgeon perform a second operation while I was under for the hysterectomy, etc.

    “Google is your friend”, didn’t someone say once?