The Time Lag of Irreversible Change

by Joshua Headley, Deep Green Resistance New York

If you’ve been a sentient being for the last few months, you’ve probably been watching some of the most curious weather events happening throughout the world.

Of particular concern for many scientists has been the Arctic sea ice’s melt, which dropped to its lowest level on record last summer. In the first few months of this year, large cracks were witnessed in the sea ice, indicating a great possibility that it has entered a death spiral and will disappear completely in the summer months within the next two years.

The rapid melt (and eventual disappearance) of the ice is having drastic affects on the jet stream in the northern hemisphere, creating powerful storms and extreme weather events, largely outside the comprehension of many scientists.

Jeff Masters, meteorology director at the private service Weather Underground states: “I’ve been doing meteorology for 30 years and the jet stream the last three years has done stuff I’ve never seen. … The fact that the jet stream is unusual could be an indicator of something. I’m not saying we know what it is.”

For example, in May there were wildfires caused by excessive heat in California while at the same time there was more than a foot of snow in Minnesota. Spring in Colorado started with early wildfires and was subsequently followed by massive flooding. Massive floods have been devastating much of the northern hemisphere this spring, including Canada, the United States, Europe, India, and Russia.

Last month, Alaska saw its hottest days on record where the town of McGrath, Alaska hit 94 F degrees while just a few weeks earlier the local temperature was 15 F degrees. There have also been extreme heat waves throughout the southwest United States, some temperatures above 130 F degrees, also resulting in wildfires that spread to more than 6,000 acres in two days and killed 19 firefighters in Arizona.

Today, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is at 400 ppm – a level not seen on this planet since the Pliocene epoch, nearly 3 to 5 million years ago when the average global temperature of the planet was 2-3 C degrees warmer than today. The International Energy Agency has recently warned that the planet is on track for 3.6 to 5.3 C degrees warming.

This is catastrophic – most scientists have recognized any significant rise above 1 C will usher in irreversible changes that will threaten nearly all biological life on this planet.

Carbon dioxide has an approximate thirty-year time lag between its release into the atmosphere and its corresponding affect on average global temperature. Even if we stop all emissions today – keeping it at 400 ppm – we still have nearly thirty years of warming and climatic changes to undergo.

And right now, nothing that we are currently observing matches up with any of the models that we have – a stark acknowledgment that this historical moment we find ourselves in exists largely beyond our ability to comprehend it let alone predict its movement.

We are in uncharted territory – we are facing challenges never before experienced in the history of the human species. This presents a grave problem: if the best science we have today cannot accurately offer any model predictions for the path that we are currently on, how can we effectively plan for the future?

The honest truth: we can’t. We cannot effectively plan for a future that is beyond all known human experience.

The best that we can do now is stop exacerbating the problem – stop contributing to the rapidly accelerating decline and destruction of the Earth’s biosphere and ecosystems.

Quite literally: we have to completely dismantle the industrial economy, we have to do it soon, and really, we should have done it yesterday.

But even still, grinding industrial civilization to a complete halt today is only guaranteed to mitigate the pace at which we’re running – it is not yet clear that it will ultimately alter our direction. We have, at minimum, thirty more years of incomprehensible climate disruptions and changes to undergo no matter what happens today or tomorrow. Our only chance to still have a thriving and living planet following the coming decades is by making a complete, radical and rapid shift from the industrial economy.

The logic of industrial civilization and capitalism is immediacy – grow as quickly as possible, generate maximum profits in the shortest time, and deal with consequences and crises later (if at all). Long-term planning and strategizing is antithetical to, and bears no consequence on, the drive for capital accumulation, expansion, and domination.

This process, within the last 30-40 years alone, has resulted in such an expansive project of urbanization around the world that capitalism has triumphed over (read: conquered, murdered, and erased) all other ways of existing on this planet, human and non-human. We now live in a truly global industrial civilization – a monoculture of unprecedented scope; a totality of being and of tyranny.

To oppose this project of endless growth and centralization of control, we need to enter into the logic of a truly oppositional culture – a fundamental and radical break from of our entire material reality. This entails a complete negation of our current standard of living and entire way of being in the world. Anything short of this negation will only exacerbate the problem.

Acknowledging this does not mean that the task at hand is easy or that a majority of people will accept it as truth. In fact, even amidst collapse, most people will not resist the status quo and are likely to fight to the death to protect it.

As Derrick Jensen has stated:

“If your experience is that your water comes from the tap and that your food comes from the grocery store then you are going to defend to the death the system that brings those to you because your life depends on that; if your experience is that your water comes from a river and that your food comes from a land base then you will defend those to the death because your life depends on them. So part of the problem is that we have become so dependent upon this system that is killing and exploiting us, it has become almost impossible for us to imagine living outside of it and it’s very difficult physically for us to live outside of it.”

But this also does not mean that the task at hand is any less true. It does mean, however, that if we wish to build our struggle for a truly just and sustainable future we must first do away with our delusions, re-focus our strategies to the most effective, and be radically uncompromising in our vision.

On June 25th, Barack Obama — a president whom, despite his rhetoric of care, spent all of the last five years of his presidency completely ignoring climate change — finally addressed the nation in a speech that was supposed to signal a “serious plan forward.”

Many “environmental” groups along with the mainstream media heralded the speech as being progressive and a great commitment to the crisis at hand. In reality, much of the speech was full of nothing more than the doublespeak typical of his presidential legacy.

In a move that many considered to be a “big victory,” the president merely stated that he will ask the State Department not to approve the final construction of the Keystone XL pipeline unless it can first determine that it “will not lead to a net increase in greenhouse gas emissions.”

This is certainly a sly trick designed to pacify a building resistance, an attempt to re-frame the debate and make it appear as if our best interests are dutifully being considered. However, to even pretend that it is at all possible that this pipeline would not lead to a net increase in greenhouse gas emissions is delusional.

While the fight against the KXL has been a fight against a pipeline, it is predominantly being waged as a fight against tar sands oil production entirely. It is incredibly easy to argue that one specific pipeline will not result in significant GHG emissions if we isolate it from the very process that demands its existence in the first place.

It is the extraction process itself that is the net greenhouse gas emitter destroying the planet – not merely the nodes at which its product is transported and consumed. Although this infrastructure should be equally opposed and dismantled, stopping one pipeline being built will only mean that others will replace it or other means will be developed to export its goods.

We should settle for nothing less than a complete end to all extraction processes. It is not even close to a victory until that happens.

Despite his attempt to appease environmentalists with this speech, there were some activist groups that were rightfully confused and enraged with his hypocritical stance. In a speech meant to signal commitment to slow climate change, President Obama continued to praise and support the fossil fuel industry and hydraulic fracturing for natural gas.

Chris Williams, author of Ecology and Socialism, examines the rhetoric and reality of this latest speech, providing a great reminder of whose interests this president actually serves – those of the ruling class. He also outlines some new ideas for Obama’s consideration:

• If you’re serious about stopping global warming, you need to veto KXL.

• If you’re serious about moving away from dirty energy, then there needs to be a strict timeline established for the complete phasing-out of all coal and nuclear plants by 2030 and their replacement, not with natural gas or nuclear, but with wind and solar power.

• If you’re really serious about carbon pollution, you can’t with any honesty discuss solutions without making massive cuts in military spending. The Department of Defense is responsible for 80 percent of the U.S. government’s energy consumption, and the U.S. military is by far the biggest polluter on the planet. Radical reductions in spending on the Pentagon are essential for human survival.

• You made no mention of the need for enormous investment in and expansion of public transit. If you’re serious about addressing climate change and making our cities more livable and the air more breathable, you will take the money you just saved by cutting military expenditures and apply it to the construction of new rail, light rail, tram and bus service, between and within cities, obviating the need for cars.”

These ideas are some of the more prevalent solutions that are often tossed around in environmental and social justice circles. While the intention may be sincere, simply advocating for a shift from “dirty energy” (coal, oil, nuclear) to “clean energy” (solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, etc.) does a great disservice for generating informed decision-making at such a critical historical moment.

While these energies have many flaws, one of the greatest problems with their proponents is that they do not fundamentally put into question our standard of living or way of being in the world.

An often-cited study by these proponents is the work of Mark Z. Jacobson who, mere weeks after Hurricane Sandy devastated the Northeast U.S., presented the economic argument for investing in renewable energies. His plan calls for a complete shift off fossil fuels and towards a rapid investment in wind and solar power for the entire state of New York by the year 2030.

Not only was this study completed on the premise that our culture does not dramatically change its standard of living, the study fails to even acknowledge the resources required to build these new energy infrastructures.

These energy sources are not free from fossil fuels and are dependent on rare earth metals and minerals; this sort of rapid technological and social shift will require massive extractive processes – a price we simply cannot afford if we wish to stop the destruction of this planet.

If we wish to create a “sustainable” future that is also just, a question that should be immediately asked is: Where are these resources coming from? From whose land will we steal from in order to build this renewable-energy utopia? Despite the fact that New York State ranks in or near the top third of U.S. mineral production, none of the crucial metals and minerals currently used for the development of solar panels and wind turbines can be found here – we will have to steal these resources from some other land base.

Even more problematic, Jacobson’s study does not entirely take into consideration (to the extent that it is possible) the severe climatic disruptions we are unavoidably set to experience in the coming decades. The disappearance of the Arctic sea ice in the next few years will result in rising sea levels that could displace more than 400 million people globally. Is it worth the investment for an entirely new energy infrastructure that may ultimately be irrelevant by the time it can be actualized?

To continue to advocate for these “solutions,” is to continue living in the delusion that we can have our current standard of living and have a planet too. As Robert Jensen articulates in his article, Get Apocalyptic: Why Radical is the New Normal:

“Toughest to dislodge may be the central illusion of the industrial world’s extractive economy: that we can maintain indefinitely a large-scale human presence on the earth at something like current First-World levels of consumption. The task for those with critical sensibilities is not just to resist oppressive social norms and illegitimate authority, but to speak a simple truth that almost no one wants to acknowledge: The high-energy/high-technology life of affluent societies is a dead end. We can’t predict with precision how resource competition and ecological degradation will play out in the coming decades, but it is ecocidal to treat the planet as nothing more than a mine from which we extract and a landfill into which we dump.

We cannot know for sure what time the party will end, but the party’s over.”

Our primary goal and vision for the world is a living planet. Nothing else matters. The biggest challenge to that goal is the industrial economy and it’s a moving target. If we have any chance at stopping it we cannot have a strategy that is focused solely on the injustices of today. Our actions and strategies should be based on where we’re heading – and where we’re heading is nothing short of near-term extinction.

This is not hyperbole or metaphor. 200 species went extinct today and another 200 species will go extinct tomorrow. 400,000 people die every year from climate-related deaths. A war has been declared against the living the world and we ought to start articulating which side we’re on, and we ought to seriously start fighting back.

I’m reminded of a recent quote from MEND (Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta), a militant group successful at halting more than 28% of Nigeria’s oil output between 2006 and 2009, which articulates the situation succinctly:

“From today, every tanker vehicle we find distributing petroleum products including propane gas has become a legitimate target in our war against injustice, corruption, despotism and oppression.”

This is the kind of vigor we need to be generating in our own movement. Never before have the lines between those who seek to destroy this planet and those who seek a radically different future, been so clearly drawn and defined. Yet, there is a degree of hesitancy within the majority of activist circles in the West that is painstakingly paralyzing our movements from reaching its goals.

If we stand in solidarity with all the human and non-human lives that have been lost, or are routinely brutalized to this way of life, we must fundamentally reject our own standards of living and ideals about how to enter into relationship with each other and with the land. Knowing that we have now entered a historical moment of incomprehensible climatic disruptions and changes for the foreseeable future, we’d be better to do away with our delusions sooner rather than later.

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Joshua Headley is a writer and activist living in New York City. He contributes to Deep Green Resistance News Service and can be reached at joshuaduane@riseup.net.

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I’ll try to flag the latest additions to the essay titled, “Climate-change summary and essay” as revisions occur. In fact, I started today, as you can see here.

Comments 178

  • AMEN Joshua!

    The way forward, from our perspective here on NBL, is “down and out” – meaning down the Hubbard energy curve and out of industrial civilization. However, as you state here and as was stated in the last thread, it ain’t gonna be easy. Everything we do, from feeding ourselves to eliminating our waste must be rethought and redone. Education will have to change, religion will have to change, the economy will have to change, our worldview will have to change, the role of the military (all over the planet) will have to change, the role and function of government will have to change, the idea of (ruling) classes or castes must change. The direction of science must change.

    Shutting off (our fossil fuel based economy) , radically altering our way of life WILL change whether we do it by an extreme, comprehensive plan and actualization or it WILL be imposed on us by our deteriorating environment.

    As we’ve argued over the last bunch of threads, with citations of human ignorance (like farmers in a drought plagued state selling their water rights to the fracking industry), privilege, and illustrations of how completely in the thrall of our ecocidal way of life we are (with its hypnotic reinforcing advertising and the now ingrained persuasion of money) – it looks less and less likely with each passing day, month, year, party in the White House, etc. that we’ll accomplish this posts goal of dismantling industrial civilization. Nature, in the meantime, is simply and effortlessly reacting to the imbalanced chemistry humanity is forcing on it, which will have ever increasing physical, mental, medical, economic, social, political, and generational deleterious effects.

    Despite some of us raising the “we don’t know everything” meme and pointing out that love is the answer, it may simply be too late for any action by humanity to stave off or lessen the cataclysmic drop in population that will most likely happen due to our inability (for whatever reasons) to globally change our ways.

  • Well said, Joshua.

    Unfortunately the masses are not suffering enough yet, so nothing will happen with respect to dismantling the industrial system which is bringing about catastrophe on so many fronts.

    I spoke at length with the local council climate change officer today; he is looking for ‘solutions’ that will permit present arrangements to continue.

    I pointed out to him that the industrial system is doomed anyway (almost certainly within 10 years and perhaps within as little as 5 years) because of declining energy availability, and that planning for sewage systems to still be operating in 2040 is nothing short of totally absurd.

    Nevertheless, he will continue to promote the destruction of his own progeny’s future because that is what he is paid to do.

  • Yes bravo Joshua! The endless prattle about being too negative that dominates many discussions about NTE obscures the obvious fact that you must define a problem before you can fix it. At this point it’s too late to fix it, but I at least prefer to be honest about what the dimensions of it are. If I had a malignant tumor I would rather know, even if it’s incurable, than be told its a harmless blemish.

    (although, this is not accurate: “Carbon dioxide has an approximate thirty-year time lag between its release into the atmosphere and its corresponding affect on average global temperature. Even if we stop all emissions today – keeping it at 400 ppm – we still have nearly thirty years of warming and climatic changes to undergo.” Yes, there is a thirty-year lag after release, but the CO2 we have released will stay in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. That, and the incalculable increase from amplifying feedbacks mean we have far, far more than 30 years of warming and climatic changes to undergo – if only!)

    Wherever men hold unequal power in society, they will strive to maintain it. They will use whatever means are convenient to that end and will seek to justify them by the most plausible arguments they are able to devise.
    —Reinhold Neibuhr

    “The big corporations, our clients, are scared shitless of the environmental movement. They sense that there’s a majority out there and that the emotions are all on the other side—if they can be heard. They think the politicians are going to yield to the emotions. I think the corporations are wrong about that. I think the companies will have to give in only at insignificant levels. Because the companies are too strong, they’re the establishment. The environmentalists are going to have to be like the mob in the square in Romania before they prevail.”
    —William Greider, WHO WILL TELL THE PEOPLE

    Does anyone see any potential for the environmentalists behaving like the mob? No – because even most environmentalists – especially the big Gang Green organizations – are just as vested in perpetuating industrial civilization as the robber barons on Wall Street…as are many climate scientists (like Mark Z. Jacobson).

    quotes found at Jay Hanson’s excellent site, which has this funny slideshow – http://www.jayhanson.us/p3.html

  • Since you brought up delusions, I mean no disrespect by suggesting that the solutions you propose are just that, delusions. Nothing is going to change. It will be business as usual until the SHTF.

    When I bring up this topic among my friends and acquaintances, I watch as their eyeballs glaze over because they just know that ‘God’ will look after His children. Oil and coal are God’s gift to us to use as we see fit. For it is written after all, that man has dominion over the Earth.

    Sun, wind and geothermal energy solutions seem like a great idea at the surface. The trick will be to scale up these energy sources to meet our needs – not an easy task. Today, all together, these sources provide only about 2% of our daily energy and only work when the sun is shining or the wind blows.

    Also, consider the oil and coal requirements of building such an alternative energy infrastructure of sufficient scale to meet our needs – by 2030! And we’ll be using what exactly for capital to finance this venture? If we had started thinking about a national energy plan following the Arab oil embargo 40 years ago, we might have been able to make a difference, but we didn’t and it’s all too little too late now. We will continue to simmer in our ever increasing CO2 juices until we’re done for.

  • Oceanographer Peter Wadhams and economist Chris Hope discuss climate change on a Tom Bowman podcast dated Aug 3, 2013 – Climate Report: “Is the Unthinkable Now Possible”

    http://tombowman.com/posts/climate-change-is-the-unthinkable-now-possible/

  • Yes, delusional.

    Although, hats off for fighting the fight. Blow up oil tankers and pipelines, burn down all govt buildings, hang all the politicians…

    It’s really very simple:
    And then, kill off 90% of the population – but first have them help us dismantle the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization and then have the survivors swear to live in balance with Nature – plant no crops, build no cities.

    Yes, it’s simple, but not easy. I’m certain that TPTB will be implementing their own version of this solution, however, they will not be swearing any oaths to Nature…

    In my opinion, any Movement that does not recognize that the SOLUTION requires 90% of the population to die (soon) is just blowing smoke…

    Sure, the DGR folks can say they are about dismantling the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization, but are they really being honest as to the fact that this will cause 90% of the Earth’s population to die – in chaotic riots, pestilence, war, and famine?

    I’m all for chaotic riots, pestilence, war, and famine if it also includes the dismantling of the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization – but, I don’t know that even TPTB can pull this off.

    However, the GREAT Delusion is this:

    It’s already too late.

    It doesn’t matter.

    Resistance may be a moral imperative, but it is futile.

    And, when the Sun goes super-nova, none of this will matter, we will all have long been forgotten, and the bunch of bananas I stole yesterday will be of no consequence.

  • Joshua,
    Thank you for your article/post and all that you do with Deep Green Resistance. Clearly human industrial civilization needs a time out which is now seriously overdue. Apparently the only way that it will happen is if it is imposed on us by a higher authority that cannot be questioned. The only authority with sufficient power to make us change our collective behavior is Mother Nature and so far we have essentially ignored her repeated warnings. Considering the enormity of the mess we have made (and continue to make) and everything that history teaches us, it is utterly preposterous to think let alone believe that we (all of humanity) will do what is necessary. We don’t have a good track record after all. It is literally akin to expecting tens of thousands of toddlers to organize into a cohesive group with a unified goal of peacefully knapping all at the same time. Never going to happen. I’m saddened to say that like yourself most of us here at NBL have come to the conclusion that anything short of immediately mounting a global coordinated effort to shut down industrial civilization will only drag out the inevitable at this point. And as I see it the chances of that happening are essentially zero. Like it or not it seems that the time has come to accept our punishment. Resistance albeit noble, is futile. After all, Mother knows best.

  • Pat says: “And, when the Sun goes super-nova, none of this will matter, we will all have long been forgotten…”

    You might appreciate this piece by the late Carl Sagan: ‘A Universe Not Made For Us’

    http://www.haveabit.com/sagan/24

    With all the recent message threads discussing meaning and purpose, this might be as good a place as any to offer Sagan’s perspective.

  • Other groups have other plans. The Techno-utopian Post-humanists, for example, who intend to leave behind their limited biological bodies and live forever in new techno-bodies.

    And they have joined an alliance with the so-called ‘Christian’ Dominionists, the largest and fastest growing ‘Christian’ organisation on the planet, whose mission is to take it over the whole world and eliminate all opposition.

    Their basic thesis is that the sooner everyone believes as they do, the sooner Jesus will return, so it makes logical sense to eliminate everyone who doesn’t believe as they do.

    Some of their more extreme elements have been quoted as intending to bring back public stoning for crimes such as having an abortion, adultery, or being gay, although that is not mentioned at this particular link.

    http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/23/2349/5841

    Anyone who has actually read the New Testament may find it difficult to reconcile some of the teaching therein, with the propaganda of this Dominionist project, but obviously, scriptural interpretation is hardly relevant. This is an extreme right wing fundamentalist crusade which is intolerant of any dissent.

    It all sounds a lot like the scenario in M. Atwood’s Handmaid’s Tale, to me.

    And then, of course, there are other centres of power who have no intention of relinquishing what they have, under any circumstances.
    Some of these have been clarified by the recent revelations from E. Snowden.

    Isolated vulnerable individuals belonging to small unpopular minorities will make perfect scapegoats for the various groups to project their hatreds and fears upon. We already see this with the pathetic persecution by ‘the most powerful nation on Earth’, ‘the Land of the Free’, of Bradley Manning, and others at Gitmo, which is a sort of public message ‘Don’t any of you ever dare to be like him/her’.

    Which is what Power and Tyranny has always done, throughout history. Try to enforce conformity and submission by way of terror. Crucify the dissenter. Socrates, Jesus, Giordano Bruno, innumerable witches, rebels, and martyrs…

  • @ Don

    Re Wadhams and Hope podcast

    Wadhams STILL talking about methane as 20x warming of CO2, which is ridiculous, because they do their calculation for a methane release over a decade, 2015 – 2025, in which case, the methane’s heating effect would be very much greater than 20x, I’ve seen different figures mentioned, but possibly as high as 500x. I think it depends upon how fast it disperses and degrades, and that depends upon the local conditions in the Arctic, and how much comes out and how fast. But 20x is over 100 years, which simply does not apply, if the period considered is a decade.

    Maybe 500x, maybe even 750x ?

    ….despite the concentration of methane being only 1/209 th of the concentration of carbon dioxide, it has a radiative forcing effect of 0.51W/m2 compared to 1.85W/m2 for Carbon dioxide. This would indicate a relative heating effect of 758 times.

    http://mtkass.blogspot.co.nz/2013/03/the-real-strength-of-methane.html

  • I cheer on the rabblerousers. Even as this boat sinks, its important that the rats and victims know exactly WHY this is happening.

  • Joshua, excellent essay. You just missed one point. When industrial civilization collapses the grid will cease. When the grid ceases there will be no power to cool nuclear power plants. Any nuclear power plants still operating will go critical and their fuel pools burn but there will be no mitigation done. Temporarily containing Chernobyl took 500,000 people and countless resources, including of course fossil fuel powered vehicles etc. Arnie Gunderson says that Fukushima failed not from the tsunami but from the loss of power and thus the loss of the ultimate heat sink.

    Presently 427 nuclear power plants are operative, but some that have been shut down recently still have very hot fuel that needs to be cooled. It takes at least 5 years of cooling after fuel is pulled from a reactor to put it into more permanent storage.

    My question is how do you bring down industrial civilization while still insuring that these nuclear power plants do not all go critical and melt down? How many species will survive such a massive world wide nuclear irradiation? Is there any way to bring down all these nuclear plants before bringing down industrial civilization and if so how long would it take and would that be in time to save the world from runaway climate change?

  • Thanks Joshua for the sober somber assessment of our current planetary position. The part that really hits home with me is the intransigence of those addicted to positions of power. Awakening those at the top of society world wide seems an almost impossible task. They seem to feel like Charlton Heston representing the NRA, that you will have to prize their grasp on power from their cold dead hands. How to thwart their insane lust to rule the world was the stuff of early comic books I grew up on years ago. With their mad scientist henchmen, wealth, and coercive means of power, using spies, torture and imprisonment to defeat all who might challenge them, it seemed as though only an unlikely superhero could find a way to topple them. Little did I realize that the world I was growing up in was an almost exact replica of these wild fantasies. For a time Hitler seemed the devil in the flesh representing all these comic book nightmares. But now those striving to realize Hitler’s dream of a thousand year Reich, have skillfully draped themselves in the flag, virtues of every kind, including religion, and taken up Hitler’s unholy quest with the acquiescence of an unresisting and sleeping nation. In short, our problem is how to wrest power from this oppressive and insane elite. All suggestions are welcome; we don’t have a lot of time to get this done….

  • @Don says:
    “Nothing is going to change. It will be business as usual until the SHTF.”

    As I wander around these last couple of years, I see that this statement holds true to form, no matter what the location. Maybe with the exception of the Mud Hut, that is.

    Perhaps the often cited quote by Upton Sinclair hits the mark yet again:
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”

    Or as Mike Ruppert has stated: “Until you change the way money works, you change nothing.”

    And all the while, the self reinforcing feedback loop list keeps getting longer and longer.

  • The house is on fire, but I have the fans blowing the smoke out and I’m pretty sure that heat could be caused by something else, so there’s no point in doing anything rash. Besides, if things get really bad, the firemen will rescue me –that’s their job.

  • New article at our website regarding another aspect of the methane bomb that hasn’t been widely discussed: the creation of hydrogen sulfide, which would either directly suffocate life forms or kill by destroying the ozone layer.
    http://www.dailybattle.pair.com/2013/will_barnes_runaway_planetary_warming.shtml
    Runaway Global Warming, Will Barnes.

    Also see Robert Scribbler’s blog 8/5/13 on huge fires all over Siberia, the largest being 250 miles by 250 miles at its widest point, and Seven facts you need to know about the Arctic methane timebomb, Nafeez Ahmed, 8/5/13 in the UK Guardian, facts which shred the arguments put forth by mainstream scientists who are trying to minimize the methane problem.

  • Yes, Yes, Yes, the point has been made over and over again:

    The solution itself is almost as bad as doing nothing (nearly almost everyone dies versus everyone dies). The key to success is having nearly almost everyone die JUST AFTER they help us dismantle the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization (primarily Nukes).

    If the Resistance does not own that reality, then they are just being silly, and, if they continue to pretend that the solution CAN be implemented with some success, then they are just being stupid.

    I prefer not to be silly or stupid.

    I personally think that being shocked into a catatonic state is the exact appropriate response.

    It is obvious that some members of the Resistance recognize that it is already too late and NTE is coming – and they continue to resist anyway. I’m cool with that.

    Resist/don’t resist, whatever…

    Carole King:
    But it’s too late, baby, now it’s too late
    Though we really did try to make it
    Something inside has died and I can’t hide
    And I just can’t fake it

    Today, I think I’ll lay in the grass and watch the clouds roll by…

  • Evolution will punish you if you’re selfish and mean… pity evolution couldn’t have been a bit more quick smart at wiping out the bastards 🙁

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130801095509.htm#.UgJnzhp2Mrt.twitter

  • In the previous thread Kathy Cassandra says: since nothing we do not changes the coming end game, can’t we stop telling each other what to do?

    You do the right thing for you,
    While I’m on my own trip too;
    Once poo starts to splatter,
    Nothing will matter,
    So don’t tell me what I should do.

  • We cannot sustain the unsustainable indefinitely. It is all quite predictable, the “dead end” mentioned in the article…I liked that phrase. People have to understand that it is big-time lifestyle change time. How many of us have made ANY meaningful lifestyle changes that cut carbon?? I think almost zero, and to the contrary, consumption and consumerism still abounds.

    I think we are headed over the cliff, that it is already too late to stop methane burping from the Arctic that will elicit runaway warming and more burping. I used to wonder how Global Warming will play out, and now I think I know. The fact that there is more methane tied up in methane clathrates than all the oil and coal ever burned since the 1850’s is just beyond ominous.

    Enjoy life now. It may not be long before we see dramatic year by year changes in the earth, ever accelerating. Enjoy life now a la low carbon, that is.

    Cheers! sort of…

  • Hey Rob, at the public library… that old Carole King song has been in my head often of late also. Glad I’m not alone?

    I can’t find any justification for disagreeing with you.

    So sad…

    Rob on the pc in Mom’s bedroom (but it’s mine)

  • “In short, our problem is how to wrest power from this oppressive and insane elite.”

    I’m curious. Let’s suppose “we” wrest power from the oppressive and insane elite. Since there are seven billion people on the planet, and most of them more than happy to be led down the garden path with blatant lies, what would prevent the oppressive and insane elite from being replaced with other oppressive and insane elites? It seems to be that those positions of power are fungible, there for the taking by the most ruthless among us.

  • I don’t see what Obama could do any differently in today’s America. Presidential action can help, but the president is not in charge. Whatever the outcome, it’s all up to us. I like Guy’s “agrarian anarchy” thing. But no less, the wild-crafting of his rope-for-a-belt neighbor.

    There are thousands of environmental and social-justice endeavors around the globe. What they do strikes me as putting fingers in the dyke to hold back the water. VERY necessary. But what I’d rather see is some way to divert the water and lower its level and thrust.

    Stop industrial civilization and you have nuclear holocaust. We’re riding the tiger, with no way to dismount. Here’s the hope. The tiger will get tired and collapse. So how about we cheer on the finger-in-dyke folks while preparing for the aftermath of tiger collapse?

    Any way forward accompanies disaster, but that of the sudden collapse of civilization strikes me as the least preferable.

  • http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2013/08/06/nasa-confirms-suns-magnetic-field-is-about-to-flip/

    August 6, 2013 – SPACE – Something big is about to happen on the sun. According to measurements from NASA-supported observatories, the sun’s vast magnetic field is about to flip. “It looks like we’re no more than 3 to 4 months away from a complete field reversal,” says solar physicist Todd Hoeksema of Stanford University. “This change will have ripple effects throughout the solar system.” The sun’s magnetic field changes polarity approximately every 11 years. It happens at the peak of each solar cycle as the sun’s inner magnetic dynamo re-organizes itself. The coming reversal will mark the midpoint of Solar Cycle 24. Half of ‘Solar Max’ will be behind us, with half yet to come. Hoeksema is the director of Stanford’s Wilcox Solar Observatory, one of the few observatories in the world that monitor the sun’s polar magnetic fields. The poles are a herald of change.

    Just as Earth scientists watch our planet’s polar regions for signs of climate change, solar physicists do the same thing for the sun. Magnetograms at Wilcox have been tracking the sun’s polar magnetism since 1976, and they have recorded three grand reversals—with a fourth in the offing. Solar physicist Phil Scherrer, also at Stanford, describes what happens: “The sun’s polar magnetic fields weaken, go to zero, and then emerge again with the opposite polarity. This is a regular part of the solar cycle.” A reversal of the sun’s magnetic field is, literally, a big event. The domain of the sun’s magnetic influence (also known as the “heliosphere”) extends billions of kilometers beyond Pluto. Changes to the field’s polarity ripple all the way out to the Voyager probes, on the doorstep of interstellar space. When solar physicists talk about solar field reversals, their conversation often centers on the “current sheet.” The current sheet is a sprawling surface jutting outward from the sun’s equator where the sun’s slowly-rotating magnetic field induces an electrical current. The current itself is small, only one ten-billionth of an amp per square meter (0.0000000001 amps/m2), but there’s a lot of it: the amperage flows through a region 10,000 km thick and billions of kilometers wide. Electrically speaking, the entire heliosphere is organized around this enormous sheet. During field reversals, the current sheet becomes very wavy. Scherrer likens the undulations to the seams on a baseball. As Earth orbits the sun, we dip in and out of the current sheet. Transitions from one side to another can stir up stormy space weather around our planet. -NASA

    Remember, Earth’s magnetic field has been weakening. Gotta watch that space weather.

  • @Gails says “What would prevent the oppressive and insane elite from being replaced with other oppressive and insane elites?”

    Exactly – any group capable of overthrowing/defeating another regime is by definition … capable of imposing their will, whatever it may be, at their pleasure.

    One of the things that amuses/fascinates me about the prog left is this constant attention paid towards frightening boogie men aka “corporations”. However, if we simply renamed capitalism communism and replaced private associations (ie corporations) with ‘public’ entities, what would change?

    Would greed, envy, sloth, lust, jealousy, etc just disappear? If not, then what form does human organization matter if the general imperative is to control, grow, expand, acquire, mate, etc?

    That’s why I think Paul’s thesis is spot on; it rationalizes the underlying reality by which all species are governed: consume or die. Trying to place blame on an abstract targets is nothing more than failing to look @ oneself.

    Consider Copperfield: I am born. From that moment forward, all energy is dissipated attempting to seek more energy. No one asks to be dropped into this existence, but once you’re viable, you’ve got 100s of millions of years of programming instilled that drive you towards your destiny.

    This sucker is on auto-pilot – no one is getting out alive. Even worse, no attempts will made to stave off disaster until the elites – present or future – see it in their advantage to go “all in” aka hog. Wipe out 95%, keep control, maintain position.

  • @Gail says “What would prevent the oppressive and insane elite from being replaced with other oppressive and insane elites?”

    Exactly – any group capable of overthrowing/defeating another regime is by definition … capable of imposing their will, whatever it may be, at their pleasure.

    One of the things that amuses/fascinates me about the prog left is this constant attention paid towards frightening boogie men aka “corporations”. However, if we simply renamed capitalism communism and replaced private associations (ie corporations) with ‘public’ entities, what would change?

    Would greed, envy, sloth, lust, jealousy, etc just disappear? If not, then what form does human organization matter if the general imperative is to control, grow, expand, acquire, mate, etc?

    That’s why I think Paul’s thesis is spot on; it rationalizes the underlying reality by which all species are governed: consume or die. Trying to place blame on an abstract targets is nothing more than failing to look @ oneself.

    Consider Copperfield: I am born. From that moment forward, all energy is dissipated attempting to seek more energy. No one asks to be dropped into this existence, but once you’re viable, you’ve got 100s of millions of years of programming instilled that drive you towards your destiny.

    This sucker is on auto-pilot – no one is getting out alive. Even worse, no attempts will made to stave off disaster until the elites – present or future – see it in their advantage to go “all in” aka hog. Wipe out 95%, keep control, maintain position.

  • It will be the “end of biological life”. Not so fast. Yes we’re in a de-evolution of the planet but there will still be life at 6C higher. Maybe not the sweet spot of the Holocene but it will still be life in the Anthropocene.

    Technically, extinction is the process of a species or a larger familial group ceasing to exist. To become extinct is to have your unique course of genetic evolution cut off from wherever it branched away from its last distinguishable predecessor, which can go back tens of thousands if not millions of years.

    The end-Pemian extinction created it’s own form of monoculture with short-limbed, pig-sized lystrosaurs that with huge lungs capable of thriving in a high CO-2 atmosphere. For several million years they were the big deal on Planet Earth making up more than 95% of the fossil record.

    Now If humans go away there is no near relative like Neanderthals to step in. Our closest living relative is the chimpanzee. Looking how things are shaping up we could take it back to microbial life but I wouldn’t bet on it.

    I know everyone has set their wayback machines for 2037 but you’re blowing bubbles. I would give humans at least 1,000 years but living far differently than anyone on this site might imagine and yes we’re coming into a bottleneck. Get ready for it and try and ride it out like most other life that has to tough it out on a leaner and meaner planet: Eaarth.

    While this long descent occurs you can bet your last dollar that the industrial machine won’t be dismantled voluntarily (particularly by this group) I’d expect it to hang on in some fashion at least til’ the end of this century, probably longer. Collapse takes time but there appears to be a death-wish here on NBL to witness the horror and the grislier the better. Daniel might have to die alone or with whoever else is pulling feathers out of their ass in anticipation for Near Term Human Extinction.

    Keep in mind that if you’re sitting at a keyboard blogging here you are the 1%. Don’t you get it?

    What pisses privileged white folk off is they don’t have a lot to say about how all of this might come down. We even had to make NTHE about us. I call this flavor: infantile-self-regard.

  • New angle on the methane time bomb. See Will Barnes, Runaway Global Warming, just posted at our site, http://www.dailybattle.pair.com/2013/will_barnes_runaway_planetary_warming.shtml
    It raises the question of the released methane creating hydrogen sulfide, a gas which is not only poisonous but also destroys ozone. If it won’t kill directly, its destruction of the ozone layer would ensure mass extinction.

  • Jeremy Jackson, Ocean Apocalypse

    The number of views sums up why there is no hope.

  • ROB WROTE: In my opinion, any Movement that does not recognize that the SOLUTION requires 90% of the population to die (soon) is just blowing smoke…

    Hallelujah and Amen, brother Rob.

    That’s the core issue that none of the nice “we can fix it, if only…” folks are willing to face with honesty. There are 7.2 billion large brained chimpanzees on the blue marble (and the number is still growing). Ultimately, that’s why all the kool green solutions are mere evasions of the imminent horror that comes with die-off. Like Gail said, the tumor is stage 4 and chemo will only increase the patient’s agony.

  • All of these posts are very insightful and I can nothing that I can substantially disagree with. I do have a sense that this has all been said many times before. This is the definition of insanity.

    I think the right idea here is to face our fate honestly. We have given ourselves a death sentence and unless some kind of Jesus level miracle comes by we will not escape our appointment with eternity.

    My question is what is the most healthy way to deal with this? How do you maintain some level of sanity when sanity no longer matters? In an insane world I am not even sure that acting sanely is an appropriate response.

    How do you override your survival instincts enough so that you don’t squander the precious little time we all have left? How should that time be used? Action is pointless and Inaction is suicidal.

  • rob at da library –

    many mahalos for sharing. you are right on, brother.

    i get my internet from the public library (mostly) or borrow from other establishments with unprotected wifi connections.

    i’ve bailed on the whole industrial economy thingy. i don’t have a job or car. i do have a bike and some surfboards (and a trailer to pull the surfboards to the beach). i eat bananas from the grocery store dumpster.

    i do help a small organic farmer and get to eat what i grow. maybe this amoeba needs some self-validating experiences.

    it is possible to leave the industrial economy and be an happy amoeba waiting for the end (whatever that may be) to come, i guess is what i want to share with other NBLers.

    speaking of “end”: small point of correction here – our sun will not supernova (not massive enough), but will eventually expand (after most of the core hydrogen has fused) to most likely engulf the soon-to-be late great planet earth. i hope no one remembers the missing bananas in the meantime.

  • relax everybody! i hear tell that Science, Inc. is working on some totally awesome kick-ass nanotechnology thingy that is going to fix EVERYTHING.

    keep consuming – they’ll make more!

  • Another brilliant essay that underscores the fact that the point of no return was crossed some time ago, and all schemes to fix the mess are essentially hopeless. Even Robin Data’s finger constantly pointing to the only metaphysical loophole doesn’t really solve anything for the third-density hairless apes on terra firma. But the survival instinct is a strong one, and hard choices may need to be made. Resistance in the above-mentioned Niger Delta, for instance, has gone well beyond protests and placards. When I first contemplated the possible demise of everything we are familiar with as a much younger man many decades ago, it occurred to me that after all other options were exhausted, signing up with the Huns and getting on the (short-term) winning side might be the only viable strategy left.

  • Thank you, Mr. Hartley for sharing your thoughts.

    Catching the bull by the tail instead of by the horns is may not the best course of action.

    Our only chance to still have a thriving and living planet following the coming decades is by making a complete, radical and rapid shift from the industrial economy.

    Or rather to have made “a complete, radical and rapid shift from the industrial economy” – about half a century ago.

    Long-term planning and strategizing is antithetical to, and bears no consequence on, the drive for capital accumulation, expansion, and domination.

    Energy flows select for organising complexity that increases energy flows now, rather than at some time in the future. Plans to increase future energy flows become adaptive when implemented.

    Long term planning (or fantasising) to achieve a
    Kardashev Type I civilisation (that captures and uses the entire insolation of the planet) is problematic because the volume of information that has to be gathered on all ecosystems and all their internal and interactions, the sensors to gather it, and the processing power needed to understand it will demand a large fraction of the available resources. And then there is the task of deploying the solar energy collectors, its processing, distribution and maintenance: with a low ERoEI to start with, the available net energy may prove paltry. And the move to a Kardashev Type II civilisation needs a climb out of Gravity Wells and setting up a Dyson Sphere around the sun to capture all of its energy.

    not to approve the final construction of the Keystone XL pipeline unless it can first determine that it “will not lead to a net increase in greenhouse gas emissions.”

    The trains carrying the tar gunk will probably produce more emissions.

    We should settle for nothing less than a complete end to all extraction processes.

    That is like plucking leaves to clear the weeds. They have to be pulled out by the roots: demand destruction. Folks have to be made to want different ways. As long as they want the same ways, the flow from resource to product to polluting waste will continue until no resource is left.

    their replacement, not with natural gas or nuclear, but with wind and solar power.

    An admirable goal, but The Energy Return on Investment Threshold limits available net energy to such a degree that it is severely disruptive to society. FEMA camps are ready and waiting for disrupters. Don’t know if the gas chambers and crematoria are also ready.

    If you’re serious about addressing climate change and making our cities more livable and the air more breathable, you will take the money you just saved by cutting military expenditures and apply it to the construction of new rail, light rail, tram and bus service, between and within cities, obviating the need for cars.

    Ah, but obviating the need does nothing about the continuing want. The provision of public transportation will not address the want. It needs a massive campaign to change values and expectations. Or a die-off. The only motor vehicles that stiffs need are hearses. Even so, people are dying for a ride in them.

    If we wish to create a “sustainable” future that is also just, a question that should be immediately asked is: Where are these resources coming from?

    How about Soylent Green?

    Our primary goal and vision for the world is a living planet. Nothing else matters.

    Ah, yes, but the guy who pulls into the gas station is a living fellow who wants a fillup: nothing else matters. Perhaps he needs an edumacation?

    A war has been declared against the living the world and we ought to start articulating which side we’re on, and we ought to seriously start fighting back.

    I still am on the side of getting a fillup the next time I pull into the Costco gas station. That can be changed, but it would need strategies so subtle that they would dwarf those of chess Grandmasters.

    Never before have the lines between those who seek to destroy this planet and those who seek a radically different future, been so clearly drawn and defined.

    Folks going about Business As Usual are seeking none of these things. They just want their fillup, their groceries, or whatever. Changing their ways will not be easy: it would be easier to deal with the Captain of the Death Star.

  • Dear Joshua, thank you for your work. Would you please take the time to read the following comment and reply here. Thanks so much.

    One of our biggest problems in these matters is a lack of human action. This problem seems to be all but ignored, or totally missed. If you are aware of this problem, it’s dynamics and ramifications, can you please explain why you do not include it as a leading dynamic to address before we have that collective component that is missing. My opinion based on years of careful research is we won’t change a thing in significant ways unless we collectively accomplish addressing that issue first.

    And for the rest of you commenting, what I am talking about can change people and in a way that de-industrialized them. No people for industry=no industry. You dot know yet what I am talking about yet, but earth willing, soon we all will.

  • For those unacquainted with the concepts:


    Gravity Wells
    (see also the Wikipedia entry for “Gravity Well”)

    Tom Murphy’s Do the Math:
    The Alternative Energy Matrix

  • A “doomer” poem by Mahmoud Darwish (can’t believe I’m sending this!)

    The rest of a life

    If someone said to me: ‘You’re going to die here this evening

    so what will you do in the time that remains? I would say

    ‘I will look at my watch

    drink a glass of juice

    and crunch on an apple

    and observe at length an ant that has found her day’s supply of food

    Then look at my watch:

    there is still time to shave

    and take a long shower. A thought will occur to me:

    One should look nice to write

    so I’ll wear something blue

    I will sit until noon, alive, at my desk

    not seeing a trace of colour in the words

    white, white, white

    I will prepare my last meal

    pour wine into two glasses: for me

    and an unexpected guest

    then take a nap between two dreams

    but the sound of my snoring will wake me

    Then I will look at my watch:

    there is still time to read

    I will read a canto of Dante and half a mu’allaqa

    and see how my life goes from me

    into other people, and not wonder who

    will take its place’

    ‘Just like that?’

    ‘Just like that’

    ‘Then what?’

    ‘I will comb my hair

    and throw the poem, this poem

    in the rubbish bin

    put on the latest shirt from Italy

    say my final farewell to myself with a backing of Spanish violins

    then

    walk

    to the graveyard!’

  • observing how tomato plants hate being caged in, needing to constantly grow and branch out during the plant’s relatively long maturation process (i have some big plants cultivated, sort of), i’ll bet the same applies to human consciousness. it hates being caged (actually, for a lot of sheeple nowadays it’s quite natural to embrace limiting dogmas, so maybe this only applies to a minority that probably includes most nbl followers/contributors). it seems all civil cultures (aka civilization) become hierarchical and authoritarian, thanks in large part to the followers, not the ‘elites’. elites couldn’t get away with all the shit they do without active cooperation and support from their multitudes of followers, the sheeple well adapted to dogmatic authoritarianism, meaning they’re well adapted to and supportive of oppression that seeks to artificially confine consciousness. they’re fucking dogma addicts!

    i just finished a very interesting personal story of a young woman raised within the core group of the cult of scientology. i knew it was wacky, but i had no idea how wacky/scary it is. subsequent reading on wikipedia and other urls, as well as a related book… uncovered loads and loads of devilish details, and i do mean devilish as in nightmarish. as in unbelievable but apparently true. it’s the sort of cult that destroys or wrecks the lives of a lot of the sheeple foolish or feeble minded enough to get drawn into it’s ugly core, led by a ‘psychopath’ dictator who lives and acts like royalty within his little cult fortress, bestowing riches on a chosen few ‘celebrities’ and favoritism to hench(wo)men willing to do dirty deeds dirt cheap in faithful devotion to their leader. the guy who founded the cult was even a bigger lunatic (if that’s possible) than the guy who runs it now. the same is basically true probably for all cults that are successful/durable enough to outlast the initial doubters/detracters. they’re started by very charismatic ‘psychopaths’, who set the tone for all that follows. as a cult grows/endures, it’s insanity mellows out a lot; fanaticism fades.

    then it suddenly struck me: civilization is just a great big cult! of course individual nations are cultish. but all of civilization operates on one basic dogma: humans reign supreme on gaia. this is our fucking planet! all those other species are just along for the ride, to be controlled, exploited, and extincted as we wish and are able to.

    speaking to the choir: we know this is wrong, right? but, so what! the cult of ecocidal maniacs pursuing fleeting ‘wealth’ is many magnitudes greater than us.

    contrary to popular opinion (minority opinion on this blog, i hope!), civilization is not ruled intelligently. tptb know how to lie, manipulate, intimidate, coerce and kill. they know how to create a cult(ure) that maximizes fleeting wealth, but they clearly know nothing about the consequences of their insanity. either that or they just don’t care.

    stupidity rules this roost (civilization, not nbl!). stupidity of leaders and followers. all are culpable, or have been. of course none of that matters anymore except for commiseration and macabre amusement.

    perhaps all groups of sheeple/people are somewhat cultish. (long thoughts punctuated by a sigh) re. nte, what matters is the great cult(ure) of industrial civ.. that beast is out of control.

    besides stupidity, ruthlessness rules. great ambition, greed, selfishness. selfishness so great, it blinds.

    ‘a picture is worth a thousand words’ if u scroll down a couple clicks of the wikipedia article below, u’ll see a picture (the second one of her in the article) of a woman with a most disconcerting facial expression. particularly the eyes. kind of scary i think. they belong to a former scientologist celebrity. she was said to be very ruthlessly ambitious by more than one source. quite manifested in this picture, i think:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimi_Rogers

    ruthless ambition, dogmatism/delusions, (herd) sociability, and ‘intelligence’. combine, shake well, and voila! hierarchical, oppressive, ecocidal industrial civ.. this must be a nightmare! it can’t be surreal! please convince me this isn’t surreal!

    p.s. i’ve yet to read the guest essay that headlines this thread, much less any of the comments. just felt like expressing these thoughts first. apologies for being so selfish. i may have tried submitting this as a separate guest essay if not for a computer malfunction and my ignorance. it’s not my intention to detract attention, but for this moment.

    ok, i just read some of the guest essay. noting that it was along the lines of informing the ill-informed, it seems to have been primarily intended for a different group than nbl. then there was this line:

    ‘Quite literally: we have to completely dismantle the industrial economy, we have to do it soon, and really, we should have done it yesterday.’

    ok, so this is another one of those ‘it’s not too late! we still may control our fate!’ points of view. not my cup of tea anymore. it’s probably always been too late to ‘save the planet’, and it’s certainly too late now, because as i just asserted, industrial civ. is a beastly out of control cult that only nature can put an end to. it’s probably always been a matter of fate, not ‘free will’, that great illusion. the only thing left to do now is prepare (individual choice), commiserate, and go on living, til u can’t/won’t anymore.

  • @tvt Excellent post. I could use a good laugh right about now. For those suffering from ‘spiritual discrimination’, this gave me a good belly laugh: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/you-seem-distant-since-ive-attained-enlightenment
    enjoy…

  • The Trap of Deceptive Comfort

    For many who live out their time in ignorance or denial of rapidly approaching catastrophe, the luxury zone seems like an excellent aspiration and dwelling place. Luxury zone seeking behavior boasts the official seal of approval. It is associated with control and status. Promoters are rewarded with fool’s gold, in the luxury zone also known as industrial ‘civilization’.

    The underside of the luxury zone is the Freedom and Liberty to ruthlessly mine, pollute, and promote overpopulation to produce exploitable labor and consumers.

    From down inside the craftily isolated perspective of a narrow minded mass media driven life, even in the shadow of the high luxury zone… the vicarious luxury zone seems to feel so selfishly good… Or at least ostensibly so much better than some inconvenient plebeian lifestyle that leans towards social responsibility and fairness, environmental conservation and the apparently impossible dream of human sustainability. Insulated from the noises and smells and dangers of real life. So ‘clean’, every counter top and toilet bowl sterilized with the strongest most heavily advertised toxic chemical compounds available on the free market… all health concerns are simply a drag and a bore… in the luxury zone. See how it shines! Feel how it smoothly drives down your own private heavenly highway. Too smug to worry about smog here, in the glamorous twilight in… the luxury zone.

    Excess comfort is a trap that -sort of- feels so good, that it hardly occurs to anyone lost in it… that they are trapped. Well, anyway, its supposed to feel really good, dammit, and if it doesn’t, well then, there must be something wrong with them, and they should rush off to the nearest pharmaceutical industry pushing psychiatric prostitute — and pop some pills pronto. Deep in the belly of the beast, whether city condo or suburban SUV tar pit, everything is Oh! so warm and fuzzy and stylish.

    Except… for that nagging gloomy stress and neurosis. Except… for that itching lack of genuine satisfaction with what passes for a life these days. Except… the separation from nature to the point of fearful loathsome estrangement… and cowardly retreat to the false security blanket of ‘civilization’. It feels so good… except… for the paucity of human connection and compassion that drowns alienated victims of meaningless excess comfort in a bath of unyielding depression and loneliness. But what about those pretty pills? Oh, sure… Voila! -> Luz zone zombies, at your service, plz.

    The gradient of human comfort ranges from starving destitution to outrageous conspicuous consumption. The global per capita sustainable comfort zone, for the Earth’s current human population, is much closer to destitution than luxury. None in the low masses support, with un-duped free will, untainted by insidious propaganda or violent oppression… the injustice of inequitable distribution.

    The deceptive trap of luxury is sucking humanity into extinction. The masses have been conditioned to grudgingly accept obscene wealth, to feel hopeless and powerless. To cow to the authority of obscene wealth without resistance. Conditioned to believe that a luxury zone lifestyle (of the Rich and Famous), which is a deadening and deadly lifestyle, is alluring.

    It is very clear to an aroused spiritual consciousness that the gravest human obscenity is unbridled wealth on a planet where the innocent suffer dire poverty. Where innocent species are driven to extinction by the pursuit of luxury lifestyles. Unacceptable personal wealth is stolen from the rest by extraction, exploitation, and warfare. Only a mercenary would contest this. The gravest obscenity and insanity is commission of mass extinction to accumulate wealth. The wages of greed are dispensed in woe.

  • ‘The only motor vehicles that stiffs need are hearses. Even so, people are dying for a ride in them.’

    robin datta, comic of catastrophe! laughter’s the best medicine. it distracts, enriches the moment, blots out the future… for the moment.

    ‘Changing their ways will not be easy: it would be easier to deal with the Captain of the Death Star.’

    and who might that be? the devil him(her)self? point made.

    thanks for the compliment, badlands ak.

  • Presently 427 nuclear power plants are operative…My question is how do you bring down industrial civilization while still ensuring that these nuclear power plants do not all go critical and melt down?

    Just to round out the picture. There are close to 240 research reactors in operation worldwide in more than 50 countries around the world. Many of these are at your favorite universities, so avoid those college towns after collapse. Plus 140 nuclear powered ships, so avoid ports. We better alert that sailor guy, who said he’s going to repopulate the Earth. Oh, and for the long term, for those critters who are still around thousands of years from now, by then the casings around the world’s 17,000 nuclear warheads will have rotted away releasing their plutonium into the environment.

  • Eloquent essay. All the “view from the top”. I should probably read everyone else’s posts but time demands I just drop in this bit of social science fiction about “stopping industrial civilization.” (That’s a mighty tall order!)

    Pogo Principle applies: At the ground level, the enemy is us. (You knew that.) We are all made to be (forced to be?) conspirators in our own doom.

    DGR invokes images of resistance, and brings to memory some frolics in the forest of years past. (Continuing today? Dunno.)

    A simple test proposition.

    People drive cars. (Each driver may end up killing 4-10 other humans through climate change. Negligent homicide, anyone?)

    Cars burn hydrocarbons.

    Cars roll on tires. (Four of ’em, in most cases.)

    I recall in the 70s when people put locking gas caps on their cars, against others siphoning out the newly expensive gasoline.

    I haven’t yet noticed any automobile tires with locking air valves.

    Most cars sit all alone, (well, with other cars), most of the day.

    Of course, here in the good ol’ patriotic “die for your country” USA, many people love their fellow Murkins so much, and ego-identify with their car, they’d just as soon shoot you if they catch you even looking cross-eyed at their car, let alone… So, risk, yeah, a tiny bit.

    Just an example of “If you are really serious about this shit” why make it all so big-time impossible, like you gotta be the fucking Maquis or something, that it’s never really going to take off in any way that’s effective, and sealing our doom. Though a brave gesture, that curve of resistance just does not intersect the curve of CO2 until well past 500 ppm.

    Maybe if there were some young people around who really wanted to experience a future in their lives, instead of us old farts who see it already going/gone over the falls. Did we raise you to be so much politer than our pars raised us to be? F’ing Christ! I hope not. We raised some hell (“R-word For the Hell of It”), and over what now appears to have been a lot less. (Wars killed millions of innocents, but agricultural collapse targets billions, still mostly innocents.)

    This idea probably won’t take off either, but for a different reason than its “doability”; This one, the flaw is in the people. Us, the knowing, them, the blind — locked in death-embrace. Can’t teach them; can’t stop them. And it’s maybe just too close a shot across the comfort zone for each one of us, maybe too much of a look in the mirror, at the comfortable white person standing there. (Meant as explanation, not accusation, so don’t sulk off to your Guilt Hideout. Resistance is beyond guilt.) Not for much longer, the comfort.

    Just don’t ever say again it’s not doable. It’s just YOU (and a few 000’s) who won’t do it. It’s psychological, not physical. Because if you did… (Imagine crossing those plazas in Rome without the traffic! Funny how people must have thought that autos “cleaned up” the streets of New York, with no more dodging horse flops everywhere you walked.)

    Be specific, dammit. It’s not “industrial civilization” in the abstract that you want to shut down. That makes me think first of widget factories, and then not much beyond that. (People just don’t think of their cars or furnaces or Big Macs as something “industrial”.) It’s the heat-emitting hydrocarbon burning, in every form, vehicle and venue.

    That new-car dealer lot at the edge of town (or the dozen of them, most cities have.) A Birkenau, Sobibor, Dachau on your block, a little zyklon factory. If that continues pumping out its poison…

    If you reverse engineer climate catastrophe, you find you have to eliminate new car sales as one beginning point. Once sold, they WILL be used. DUHHHHH!!! (Obama “saving” Detroit — talk about running into an oncoming freight train!)

    Be specific. The eight or ten major offending categories have millions of identical units emitting death. Do a reverse Henry Ford mass-xxxxxxtion on each of them. Solve a problem once, solve it a million times over.

    Now, for the air conditioners… Ever get your hand stuck in some epoxy?

  • Something to keep in mind. If the hydrogen sulfide process does take place, that will mean extinction. No present life form could handle the destruction of the ozone layer which would result.

  • @ Mike Sosebee

    I love your writing and your spirit. But am I mistaken in believing that nuclear meltdown around the globe is a likely outcome of any major collapse? And if so, likely to be severe enough to wipe out all mammals?

    With so many people (I’m assuming there could be a labor-pool upside to “overpopulation”) and so much technology (same thing), “impossible” solutions could be reached. It appears not to be the lack of means, but the lack of understanding that is driving extinction.

    If we all awakened tomorrow with universal understanding, I could see a considerable degree of survival. But if we can only muster the present level of consciousness, what is to avert nuclear-induced die-off? (Again, I’m assuming there COULD be survival amid plague ecological destitution and fiery weather, but I’m not seeing the same thing with radiation). Just curious.

  • @ annie

    Co-operation, competition, commensalism, symbiosis, everything is eating everything else, all the time…

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130807134125.htm

    Instead of random chemical chaos, it’s like an orderly dance, it auto-adjusts, like juggling millions of balls, and each species is a ball, if it vanishes there’s a gap. Too many gaps and the sequence, the flow, the display collapses. Then there’s just minerals and physics again.

    Took 4,500 million years to reach this fabulous degree of complexity and a harmonious balance. Humans did not understand that, and they wrecked it all, over a few thousand years, but mostly just in my lifetime.

    Instead of this we’ll have putrid toxic oceans emitting poisonous fumes and arid deserts of dust where nothing can grow, and a wasteland of radioactive junk and plastic garbage. As a species, we had a choice, we made that choice.

    I don’t accept the entropy thing, I don’t accept the ‘all equally to blame’ thing. Thoreau told us, Rachel Carson told us. Ed Abbey told us. Ted K. told us. Plenty of others. Nobody wanted to listen or hear or to do anything. Too late now.

  • HT to gail
    http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws/article/news/54263
    Anthropogenic aerosols caused global temperature drop in 1950s

    More than 50% of the decrease in global mean near-surface temperature observed between 1950 and 1965 was due to anthropogenic aerosols, according to researchers in the UK.

    Laura Wilcox and colleagues of the University of Reading and the Met Office used the most recent climate models to confirm that aerosols played a large role in the temperature decrease in that timeframe. They have, for the first time, quantified the size of the contribution made by anthropogenic aerosols, as opposed to natural aerosols.

    More confirmation that collapse of industrial civ which will end the polluting aerosols will send warming soaring. In other words we ain’t seen nothing yet. Add that to 427 nuclear plants melting down and I think we have an extinction event unpredecented. It is not just how hot it gets, but how fast it gets hot – slow heating allows migration and evolution to let some critters adapt.

    If only the thermopiles are left, no mammals will re=evolve before the sun does any remaining live on the planet in when it begins to die.

    Thus resistance is a mind salve for those who choose it, not a salvation for anything. The best justification I can find for resistance is that it will bring on extinction sooner saving some unborn from living through the horrors. It will not save us or any other critters from planetary extinction, it just will bring it on sooner.

    The problem is not privileged white males, the problem is privileged big brain species, all of us. But we are natural beings, and our end is in our genes regardless of what any individual chooses to do – See Too Smart for Our Own Good by Craig Dilworth.

  • @ Jeff S.: you might be interested in this blog
    http://jumpingjackflashhypothesis.blogspot.com/

    @Mike Sosebee: You really think humanity will be around for at least another 1000 years? What will they eat? Can you see us or any current plant or animal “adapting” to increasing toxic radiation? Who’s going to stop the plague(s)? What will they use for energy? With both a dead ocean and dead trees (most, if not all vegetation), where will the oxygen come from? We’re turning Earth into a nuclear waste saturated gas chamber, so to your point: I don’t get it. Care to explain (and I hope you’re correct!)?

  • Hardly an original concept but, yeast will consume all their food and die in their own waste — exactly like the human race. It is entirely possible that human beings are just selfish monkeys evolutionarily incapable of co-existing with other life forms, including ourselves, and the only reason it took so long to destroy everything is it took so long to discover oil as a way to cook our planet. This however brings up notions of predestination and that our fate, our doom, was set into stone the first time we started using fire as a tool. There’s no need to go down that rabbit hole as all such considerations become moot when we’re struggling over the last can of peaches. Too late we discover greed is lethal. Too late we find out that yes, indeed, we are our brother’s keeper and that honesty is the best policy and that we all live in glass houses. We still end up dead, taking just about everything with us.
    The goal now is to die with as much dignity and respect dying by starvation can afford. Eyes wide open and hopefully with hearts open too. We lived like animals, maybe we can die like men. Not counting on it, but fantasy helps me cope.

  • “I don’t accept the ‘all equally to blame’ thing”.

    I think you don’t understand. The point is, the outcome – extinction – is and always was inevitable. Thus, blaming white guys or capitalism is just another form of denial, or bargaining, with death and meaninglessness – it’s a way of asserting that if only we remained matrilineal hunter-gatherers, we could have remained in that paradise that was formed in the millions of years of evolution before we popped up.

    Whether you want to subscribe to the physics of entropy, or just examine our biological link to warring tribes of chimpanzees, the outcome is the same – ultimately, a global collapse. So “blaming” is irrelevant, unless you just want to believe that we are capable of rising above the behavior that is etched in our genes.

    I’m interested in thoughts about what was brought up in the last thread – the moral imperative of collapsing industrial civilization. Of course, it’s going to collapse on its own sooner or later. But is there really a benefit in having it collapse sooner? What will happen when it collapses? Would it really save more species from extinction?

    If you have the notion that we’re in for runaway Venus-effect warming (even the small version), then ultimately it doesn’t matter because nothing will be left, eventually.

    But leaving that aside, what will happen when collapse occurs, and will that really benefit other species? I have to wonder, because of the nuclear issues KathyC brings up, but also, what will people do when the lights go off and they can’t get gasoline for their cars and they have no food or water, when the toilets back up and it’s hot as Hades without the aerosol cooling?

    There will be wars – could be global, nuclear wars – and certainly more localized violence. Whatever protections are in place will be unenforced, so fishing, hunting, and chopping down trees will become rampant and will continue until either everyone dies from disease and war or radiation – or all the fish and animals and trees are gone, and then anyone left dies of starvation.

    I’ve seen video in North Korea of people sifting through dirt looking for worms to eat. So, if someone like Deep Green Resistance were capable of bringing down IndCiv sooner rather than later, what would be the benefit of that?

    KathyC’s predicts a benefit of preventing more babies being brought into the world to suffer – although isn’t it possible that after collapse, the birth rate might actually go up without modern birth control available?

    If there’s no benefit, isn’t it better to continue BAU and buy time? Is the plan to bring down IndCiv just a romantic ideal to keep us busy and pretend that we’re doing something noble while trashing the planet?

    Awaiting thoughts on this!!! Thank you all.

  • @ Rob Bazinet: You are not alone!

    @ ric: Cool! I grew up surfing Padre Island in S. Texas, then went off to a land locked university and then off to a career in a big land locked city – and I do miss the ocean. I’ve skied/snowboarded the last 20 years – snowboarding is great ’cause you never have to paddle out! I think of it as surfing a big frozen wave…

    @ Mike Sosebee: really? Did you recently experience a bad bump to the head?

    @ Henry: I was quite surprised by your post but I like it! Yes, every little thing that can be done must be done! But, I go the opposite way, instead of trying to bring it to it’s knees, I’m pumping it up! I want MORE consuption, MORE waste, MORE everything – because I want to speed up the collapse in hopes that I’ll be able to see the SHTF scenario in America – I want to see the riots, the looting, the marauding hoards and the wide-eyed raging cannibals… But, most of all, I want to see the govt buildings burn and the politicians hanged. So, leave the lights on, buy a new car, max out your credit cards, water your lawn daily and pour unused paint and toxic household chemicals into your local neighborhood storm drain. Support fracking. Encourage lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride.

    The Second Law of Thermodynamics:
    Just like the morons that thought the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around the Earth (mostly just because they were told, not because they really knew, and it was socially acceptable to think so, and, if you disagreed or wondered aloud, you weren’t invited to the Autumnal Equinox pig roast), I can fall in line with the popular opinions of the day (hippie freakdom, environmentalist activism, touchy feely new ageism, woo woo Hindu and Buddhist meditation, self love, EST, Christianity, Islam, Witchcraft, etc). Yet I cannot shake the overwhelming sense that these things are no better than anything else as they are all Faith based, and Faith is believing in something you cannot know (IMO). I have no Faith. I say that I believe in the Second Law of Thermodynamics – but I cannot KNOW it to be true, so I recant my previous statement. I simply observe that a burning match ends up as a small pile of ash – and the Sun looks like a big match.

    No one is to blame, but I am certainly guilty.

    The children suffer and there is no redemption.

    Go to sleep and wake up in the cold, dark, emptiness of space.

  • this is who we are:

    August 8, 2013
    By Monica Garske, NBCSanDiego.com
    A 4-month-old baby boy died Saturday after being found unattended inside a hot car parked at an apartment complex in San Diego’s El Cajon area.

    The children suffer.

    There is no redemption.

  • Joshua Headley says, If we stand in solidarity with all the human and non-human lives that have been lost, or are routinely brutalized to this way of life, we must fundamentally reject our own standards of living and ideals about how to enter into relationship with each other and with the land.
    I don’t want to say it is naive to believe that most, many, or even quite a few people stand in solidarity with human and non-human lives, much less the land, but I’m afraid it’s probably the case. I’ve had the displeasure of associating with too many people who stand in solidarity only with themselves, their immediate family, and their stuff, whose stance regarding, for instance, the wars in the middle east is ‘BOMB THEM ALL’. As far as big, sweeping, world-wide movements, well, we couldn’t even ratify the Kyoto Protocol.

    Earlier in the thread, tvt labeled industrial civilization as a cult and said, it seems all civil cultures (aka civilization) become hierarchical and authoritarian, thanks in large part to the followers, not the ‘elites’. elites couldn’t get away with all the shit they do without active cooperation and support from their multitudes of followers
    I agree with this. Many people need to be told what to do. It’s easy to languish under the top-down model of oppression by the elites, but they must have permission by a pretty large majority in order for the delusion to carry on. Maybe the hierarchal nature of society has taken away our natural decision-making abilities, our ability to face the big things eroded away by the two-million decisions a person has to make every day because there are just too many options, too many brands of toothpaste, etc. to choose from.

    The essay touched on the logic of immediacy driving our model of civilization, and it seems easy for people in general to internalize this in regards to their own survival and comfort, so it seems likely that unless there is a huge, jolt-you-out-of-your-malaise, eye-opening catastrophe for a large portion of first-world (?) people, all that sense of immediacy leads to is stockpiling, prepping, and fortress-building. So, how to communicate the immediacy and seriousness of climate change, the magnitude of what it all means, to the average person? How to make the ‘green movement’ cultish? Or is it already?

    Well, for one, the essay left the nuclear industry/situation under the umbrella of ‘industrial civilization’, when just the pathology that living in the nuclear age necessarily induces should afford it it’s own category. Secondly, it doesn’t address population. I’m just going to take a guess and say, people aren’t going to lay down and die for the prospect of a living planet. Unless the urgency and immediacy of what’s at stake is not laid out very clearly, in very plain terms, people are not going to reject their standard of living. Dismantling industrial civilization is so vague and all-encompassing, the average person is not even going to know what that means or entails. Most have no idea how destructive and ugly the western way of life is, as it is well hidden.

    The nature of the beast is so big and overwhelming in scale, the average person that is not awake at this moment, is going to feel helpless in the face of it. Action will only arise if it is very personal, very specific, and at least slightly practical. Look to the numerous indigenous movements/actions around the world. Look at individual efforts. Look at artistic efforts to counteract the propaganda machine. Maybe it is time to build unlikely alliances, and fast. There are some very creative people out there.

    @Rob@thepubliclibrary You seem to really care about the suffering of children, maybe instead of going around leaving the lights on and the water running, you could volunteer at an animal shelter or something? Or go big and set the Denver Zoo free.

  • Dear Ozman, Guy, Mike k, Ulvfugl, and Artleads, I left comments to you all at the last thread (The selfish surrender…) if you care to read. Thanks

    Dear Mike Sosebee, standing applause here.

    Dear B9k9, you bring up valid points, what I continue to discuss is the human factor that when changed will end elitism, oppression and ‘de-industrialize’ us.

    Dear Tom, fascinating info on solar magnetism due to reverse in Dec. of this year? Another feedback process? Talk about the sun flipping us a fast ball! I would like others here to input on this too.

    Dear Artleads, I love your metaphor of using the tiger as force or power, if I get you right. We need to be riding the tiger, dragon, horse, self. This is the change that needs to happen so we can work with and adapt to all changes around us and in front of us.

    Dear T. Griz- indeed it is big time for change but we need more than style change, we need core change. That change, once realized will help us in all ways to deal with what is already here and more that is coming. The longer we wait, the less prepared we are.

  • It is stunning to me that Ovomit is so damned ignorant, esp. being of color. But then money, always, blinds. There is no hope left. Time to party, i.e. hug ur loved ones, confess ur transgressions and obtain the necessary Nembutal. We will all know when the time is right to use it.

  • Yes, I know that I will be ridiculed for posting such heresy, but as best stated by Albert Guerard, “When you seek a path to any new truth, you must expect to find it blocked by expert opinion.” So for those good people not afflicted by a rigid and censored belief system I offer the following NTHE possibility. Even ET has arrived at the conclusion that mankind is a failed species:

    Temple University professor David Jacobs, Ph.D., the author of the highly regarded books “The UFO Controversy In America” and “Secret Life,” has spent more than 30 years researching UFOs and alien abduction. But it was only recently that he came to feel he had solved the mystery to his own satisfaction. The solutions he arrived at are the subject of his third book, “The Threat: What The Aliens Really Want And How They Plan To Get It” (Simon and Schuster, 1998).

    Finding what he believes to be the answers was not a happy event for Jacobs. He told us recently that he now approaches the subject with an attitude of dread and deep concern about the future of humanity and the planet we call home.

    Casteel: What do the aliens really want?

    Jacobs: Well, you know, the ultimate question I think to ask for the UFO phenomenon is “Just what the hell do you think they’re here for?” That’s the question that I’ve tried to address in this book–what is this all about? What is happening here? Why is this happening? Why are people saying that these events are happening? So what I’ve done then is try to answer those questions as best I can by using as much information as I can from eleven years of fairly intensive research into abductions.

    And what I’ve been able to find is that this is a program. They’re not here just because they’re examining people, or studying people, or experimenting on people. I don’t know, Sean, if you remember I gave a talk about that in Los Angeles when I saw you. So they’re not here to sort of “examine” us in some way. They’re here on a mission. They’re here with a goal in mind. They’ve got a program, and it’s a program with a beginning, a middle and an end. It’s a program that is goal-directed and I think we’re entering into sort of the end-phase of this program. I think that we’re moving towards the end of this.

    And the program ultimately is not abducting people. Abductions, you have to remember, are a means to an end. They’re abducting people for a purpose, for a reason. The physical act of abducting people, which is the abduction phenomenon, really is only part of the program. So what I’ve done is kind of divided it into component parts and fleshed it out a lot more. So what we have here is an abduction program, a breeding program, which accounts for all the reproductive activity that we see, and a hybridization program, which is why people see hybrids all the time–as babies, as toddlers, as adolescents, and then as adults.

    And then, finally, I think all this is leading to an integration program in which ultimately these hybrids, who look very human, will be integrating into this society. And who will eventually, I assume, be in control here because they do have superior technology and superior physiological abilities that we do not have. We would therefore be sort of second-class citizens, I think.

    Now, I find this to be very disturbing. And the interesting thing is that I don’t really see other scenarios. I know that people feel it’s positive and it’s wonderful, and all the rest of that. And they’re here to help us. But in the cases that I’ve investigated, very carefully, very thoroughly, for a very long time, I have not had people discuss that. When people discuss the future, generally speaking, they are discussing this integration program that they’re confronting, and we’re all confronting. I’ve been involved with UFO research for about 32 years now, since about 1965, and I have never been downcast or depressed about the phenomenon. I have never been pessimistic about it. I’ve always been filled with wonder and awe and amazement at it. I’ve been enthusiastic and optimistic about it.

    But I must say that now that I’ve learned as much as I have learned, and I think I’ve learned an awful lot, I am very, very unsettled and upset by what I see. I don’t like what I see. I wish I didn’t see this. I wish I hadn’t uncovered this. I despair of it. It’s thrown me into a tremendous sense of concern about the future and unease. I just don’t like it very much. I wish I did. I don’t want to be this way. I don’t want to be the bearer of bad news. I could not have ever imagined that I would come to this position. What I’m seeing now, what I’ve found with the phenomenon, I could never have imagined.

    Now, though, I am persuaded by the evidence. I think that we are looking at a very serious business happening in front of us. As you know, the UFO and abduction phenomena is very, very widespread. And people have seen tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of UFOs around the world for a long time now, at least through the 20th Century, and certainly since 1947, and before that as well. It means that the amount of time and energy put into this program is really quite enormous. This means that it has a tremendous amount of importance to these beings.

    And there’s another aspect to it also that is disconcerting. It’s a secret phenomenon. They don’t want us to know what they’re doing. They don’t want us to interfere. This is a consciously-arrived-at and successful secrecy programt to prevent us from knowing. Gosh, that makes me very uneasy, Sean.

    So anyway, I’ve become depressed about the whole thing.

    Casteel: So the reason for all this negative feeling and depression is because you feel that you and I and people who are natural human beings will somehow be subject to a higher form of oppression?

    Jacobs: Of authority, right. I do think that something like is going to happen. The way I look at is, I have one scenario which I like. All the rest of them I don’t like. The one scenario which I do like is that one day, they will come to the abductees and say, “Our program is done now. We have accomplished our goal. We’ve taken what we need. Thank you so much for your help. Thank you so much for your cooperation. We’ll be leaving now. You’ll never know we were even there. People will wonder forever whether they were abducted or not. Now, goodbye and good night.” That’s my favorite scenario. I love that scenario. But in fact, we never hear that. We always hear a scenario about the future in which these beings say they’re going to be here with us.

    And everything is going to be wonderful. Everything is going to be great. It’s going to be just delightful. We’re going to like it, they’re going to like it, everybody’s going to like it. That’s the future according to them, but when I take a look at their society, and when I take a look at a future in which they would be in control because of their superior technology and physiological abilities, I see a very, very different society than the kind that we live in now–a society that’s far more restricted and far more controlled. The whole concept of individual freedom in this kind of society would be under serious question. I don’t like that. I don’t want it. I would rather have human beings make their own mistakes and fix their own problems and do things by themselves. I think we’re perfectly capable of doing it. I think we can all live together into a happy future. I think that’s within the realm of possibility.

    Casteel:So they paint a Utopian picture of what’s going to happen?

    Jacobs: Well, they paint a picture of what they consider to be good for themselves. And they live in a controlled society. They live in a society where everybody knows his or her job. They live in a society where everything is controlled. The ability for people to act independently is very, very circumscribed in this kind of society that they live in. I just don’t like it. I’m filled with apprehension over this. Now the key thing here is they are here for a reason. They are not studying or experimenting on us, and they’re keeping their activities secret from us so we won’t find out.

    Casteel: That’s what you were saying at the lecture, that they were way beyond the experimental stage.

    Jacobs: Right. In fact, that was the title of the lecture “Is this an experiment or a program?” You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see what’s going on. This doesn’t look like an experiment to me, you know. It’s been worldwide with millions of people for 50 years. Day in, day out, 24 hours a day. What kind of an experiment is that? And there are a lot of other reasons why it’s not an experiment.

    So it’s disconcerting. And I never used to think this until I began to put it together–until I began to come to these conclusions and realize I think this is what it is. I think that in the book, basically, I’ve advanced hypotheses which might very well essentially be what this UFO phenomenon is all about. This is not the final aspect of studying this phenomenon, but I do think that I’ve fleshed out what the goals and purposes are. We’re not exactly sure of all the “whys.” Why they would want to do it in the first place? What’s the point? We don’t really know that. But I think this is certainly a hypothetical answer to the UFO puzzle. I think pretty much we’ve answered it.

    That’s what we’re looking at. And therefore I think we’re looking at a very difficult future.

    Casteel:So the “how-they-plan-to-get-it” part would be through the breeding and hybridization programs?

    Jacobs: Yeah, but how it’s going to be played out, I don’t really know. There’s a lot of different scenarios. There’s the Disaster Scenario that abductees keep talking about over and over again. We’ve had this for years and years. I don’t quite know how that’s going to happen. Whether there’s going to be a disaster or not. There’s a scenario where they just sort of naturally and nicely integrate into this society and we never even know it’s happening. I guess there’s things in the middle. We don’t really know how what the aliens and abductees call “The Change,” is going to take place. We don’t really know that quite yet.

    Casteel: But they’re given visions like the world on fire or natural disasters, that kind of thing?

    Jacobs: Yeah, well, it’s all sorts of disaster scenarios, which includes atomic war. It includes asteroids hitting the earth. It includes floods, plagues, famine, whatever. It’s sort of a generalized disaster and you just fill in the blanks as to what kind of disaster it will be. It’s really non-specific, although people report more atomic war or the earth cracking in half or being destroyed by a comet or something like that more than other things, I guess.

    I don’t think the specifics are all that important, but the idea of a disaster is the most important thing. But I don’t know whether that’s true or not. We really don’t know that yet because it might be a very different scenario. But I’m certainly going to stick by my guns and say that this is an integration program. However it’s worked out, they will be integrating into this society and that’s what this is leading to.

    As I say about all my books, there’s no possibility, Sean, that I have avoided error. I’m going to be wrong somewhere, somehow, in God knows how many things. But I think that this hypothesis that I’m presenting here is supportable by the evidence. And that’s what makes it more disturbing. Everything I’ve written in this book is evidence-driven. That’s why it’s such a difficult book to deal with

    Casteel: Well, it’s like “Invasion of the Body Snatchers,” where you end up mouthing the words, “It’s better this way. We have no pain now.”

    Jacobs: You are exactly right. I’ve thought about that, too. And of course one of the things I’ve been criticized for is because it has such a science-fiction quality to it. And then people say, “Therefore it is science-fiction.” People have picked it up in the culture and that’s why I’m hearing this. What they do is they make the mistake by finding similarities and saying that the similarities are in fact equalities. Which, of course, they are not. The fact is though is that it does have what they call “Programmatic Content.” It does have content whereby we can see the inner workings of what they’re doing and what’s happening. And there are parallels in science-fiction, and certainly one of them is “Invasion of the Body Snatchers.” That is in fact one of the parallels we see. But there’s a lot of other parallels in science-fiction also. And if you look hard enough, you’re going to be able to find a bit and a piece of it here and there and everywhere. But I don’t think that this is science-fiction.

    You’ve got to remember that most abductees are really not much into science-fiction. Most people I work with say they don’t follow science-fiction. They haven’t seen those movies. They don’t know about that kind of stuff. It’s not something where it just pervades the society. As people try to tell me, “Well, it’s just sort of everywhere.” Well, it isn’t exactly like that. You’ve got to remember that the abduction phenomenon, while similar to science-fiction here and there, is really very different in almost all of its areas. It really is a different kind of situation, as you know.

    And of course you have situations where people see other people being abducted and people are physically missing from their normal environment. There’s a strong physical component to it that’s very tough to explain.

    Casteel: One thing I thought was interesting was the way you went over the varying degrees of hybrids. Varying percentages of human versus alien combinations.

    Jacobs: Yeah, I tried to put forward a new concept of hybridization. One that makes more sense and one that’s more in line with the evidence as it’s presented by the abductees.

    Casteel: Like subtle degrees between the various kinds?

    Jacobs: Right. And you know, it does make sense that way. It answers a lot of things. It makes sense primarily because abductees have been saying this. So I was able to divide it into sort of like late stage, middle stage, and early stage hybrids. But one of the interesting things about this phenomenon, Sean, is that you know I talked about toddlers and what kind of toys they played with and young children and what they play with. And I even had some sort of “widget” that the adolescents tinkered with. Remember? There was that one sequence where he had a box and he had to press certain things and if he pressed them the right way there was a flash. Remember that?

    Casteel: Yeah, like an alien Nintendo or something?

    Jacobs: Right. But in terms of toys, we basically know quite a lot about alien toys, about kids’ toys, and all that. And the hybrids and what they do. I spent a lot of time on hybrid children. If this were psychological, I couldn’t do that. We wouldn’t be able to describe certain toys that they used that other people have described as well. We’re learning so much about this phenomenon, it’s just extraordinary. And yet everything we learn points in the direction of the integration program.

    Remember I talked about this one woman who was involved in this sort of learning situation in which she was standing in front of a class of hybrids. And a picture of a dog came down.

    Casteel: Right, and she was supposed to explain all the earthly things.

    Jacobs: And she was asked “What’s a dog for?” And she said, “Well, you know, it’s a companion” and all that. But see, that points to integration into the society. Everything points to it. This concern, this interest in earth things. I don’t think it’s just sort of “interest.” I think they’re interested in it for a reason. The interesting thing here is they’re not saying, “How do you elect a president?” “What do you do Saturday night?” and things like that. They’re not interested in politics, economics, culture, society. That they’re not concerned with. And we almost never, never get questions about that. But if this were psychological, we would be getting questions like that. But they’re interested in physiology, they’re interested in anatomy, they’re interested in the natural world, the environment, animals, things like that. Things that are not man-made necessarily. As if in the future, it’s not going to matter what we have built. The only thing that’s going to matter is what they do. That’s one way of looking at it.

    But it’s disconcerting. You want them to ask questions about Clinton, you know, and things like that. Something where you can see they really are learning about society, but in fact, if they integrate into this society, there’s going to be an overlay of their society. And ours isn’t going to matter a whole lot. That’s my interpretation. Now I might be awfully wrong about that, but it certainly is my interpretation of it.

    Casteel: Well, given the inevitability of it all, you just kind of want to hang on to some kind of shred of hope that it’ll be a good thing somehow.

    Jacobs: Well, the one hope I have right now is not much of a hope. But the hope that I have right now is the fact that it’s still secret. That is to say that as long as it’s still secret, they must assume that they are still vulnerable and therefore there’s a way that we can affect the program. That’s not a whole lot to hang on to, for me. But you know I despair that the scientific community is going to realize the import of what’s happening in front of them. I think that even if they do, there’s so much water under the bridge and we’re so far down the line with this that indeed it may make no difference. Maybe 30 or 40 years ago it might have made a difference, but I’m looking to the future where I just don’t see the scientific community getting interested in this subject. It hasn’t happened in the past, and failing some sort of sudden event, some sort of sudden revelation, some sort of incredible thing, “Clinton Exposed As Alien Himself,” or something like that, I just don’t see them becoming interested in it. They’ve had half a century of the ability to have that interest and have not utilized it.

    I don’t like what I’m seeing here. I’ve spent my entire adult life studying this subject intensely. Year after year. I have a professional degree with a Ph.D. in the subject and I teach the only course in the country on the subject, the only regularly scheduled, full credit course in the country, which I’ve taught for 19 years. I’ve written three books on the subject and and many articles. And I’ve never really felt the despair I feel now that I think that we’ve broken it open and we’re looking at it and examining it. And it’s just not what I expected. It’s not what anybody expected. I just wish it was not that way. I just don’t like it.

    However, this is one of those situations where you can despair of it–you can feel Oh, my God, this is awful–but you have to lead your life as though it’s not happening. It’s the only way you can get along. It’s the way I get along. And I’ve got two kids, you know. So I look at them and I look at the book and I don’t know what kind of future they’re going to have. That’s true. I really don’t. That wasn’t just words. This is of great concern to me. I really don’t know what kind of future they’re going to have.

    Casteel: Well, again, I guess the one ray of hope is the possibility that it won’t be a cruel form of oppression to live under them.

    Jacobs: Well, that certainly might be possible. I don’t think it’s going to be a cruel form of oppression. I just think it’s going to be very different and not to our liking. I don’t see an oppressive situation necessarily. I don’t think that we’re going to be whipped like a slave in a galley on a Viking ship or something like that. But at the same time, I do not see the freedom of movement and action and activity that we have now. Individual freedom and freedom of thought and all that to be the same in the future as it is now.

    You’ve got to remember these beings are telepathic beings. They tap right into your thoughts. I don’t want anybody tapping into my thoughts. When I was down in Brazil earlier I gave a paper on what it’s like to live in a telepathic society based on abductees’ testimony about the society that the aliens live in and the kind of telepathy that the abductees experience. And Sean, you don’t want that society. You want to be private. You want to keep your thoughts private. You want to have individual expression, individual thoughts. You want to be able to do what you want to do without anybody knowing. And in their society, that’s not necessarily true. It’s a different kind of society.

    So, is alien integration into Earth’s society already a given? Will we lose many of the freedoms we currently enjoy to the superior capabilities of the aliens and the hybrid offspring that are also a part of us?

    The old truism “Only Time Will Tell” seems operative here, as it does with so much of the UFO mystery. And in the words of rock singer Tom Petty, “The Waiting Is The Hardest Part.”

  • Ripley There are close to 240 research reactors in operation worldwide in more than 50 countries around the world.

    Yes and nuclear dumps like the Hanford site. Or the nuclear dump not far from a subsurface smouldering event (read fire) at the Bridgeton landfill near St. Louis http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/st-louis-is-burning-20130510

    But the funny thing is when I first read you comment I read 240 research centers and thought of the research labs for biological research – at wiki under “Biosafety level” you can find all the level 4 Biosaftey Labs that no doubt will cease to be safe after collapse. However that will be a problem for us more than other species. The rising temps and nuke plants, research reactors and dumps will affect all life.

  • @ Mike Sosebee

    You state:

    “I would give humans at least 1,000 years but living far differently than anyone on this site might imagine and yes we’re coming into a bottleneck. Get ready for it and try and ride it out like most other life that has to tough it out on a leaner and meaner planet: Eaarth….While this long descent occurs you can bet your last dollar that the industrial machine won’t be dismantled voluntarily (particularly by this group) I’d expect it to hang on in some fashion at least til’ the end of this century, probably longer. Collapse takes time but there appears to be a death-wish here on NBL to witness the horror and the grislier the better. Daniel might have to die alone or with whoever else is pulling feathers out of their ass in anticipation for Near Term Human Extinction.”

    From my lips to Gods ears, I pray the Almighty bestow upon me the curse of a thousand years, upon the very day, we can honestly claim ‘I’ was immorally mistaken. On such a momentous date, I’ll more than gladly drop my knickers and shave around my little wink until it is as smooth and pink as a baby’s cheek. And with the giddiness of a schoolboy in the limelight for the world to witness, I’ll blissfully fall to my hands and knees and with a pair of tweezers, submit myself to an eternal labor of love, by pulling a rainbow of crow feathers out my little keister in festooning 15 billion hand held fans, in commemoration of the deadly heat wave that never came to be, on what I’m sure will be considered the most holy of all holies, the day physics disappeared…….never to return.

    “Here we are, trapped in the amber of the moment. There is no why.” ~Kurt Vonnegut

    But all glibness aside Mike, I do truly hope you are right, and “my” completely misrepresented (by you) ilk are eventually proven to be utterly wrong, because most of life is lost even if we’re half right. So as a devout atheist, let us all pray that day soon comes to pass. I would very much welcome it.

    Thanks for your movie and comments, sorry if I offended you somehow.

  • Henry said: “If you are really serious about this shit” why make it all so big-time impossible, like you gotta be the fucking Maquis or something, that it’s never really going to take off in any way that’s effective, and sealing our doom.”

    I agree with what you are expressing here. The big idea does seem to be the enemy of the small.I have met with a group of people for several years,mostly as a garden/permaculture/homestead group.Someone suggested that we read DGR as a group and so we read it and met to discuss it over a 2 month period. In the same time period Guy was in the area and we all saw his presentation and discussed that as well. It was a pretty intense time for some people,learning about how bad our situation is. We talked alot about what we might do,how far people might be willing to go to protect what they cherished,etc.
    After weeks of Potlucks and discussions the general consensus was that everyone agreed with the basic premises outlined in the book,thought it was likely we were going to cause mass extinctions and were completely unwilling to engage in any activities suggested in the book.
    The ideas were to big,dangerous and destructive to consider and so were rejected out of hand without saying “Well, is there something I am I willing to do?”
    Everyone went back to business as usual.It was a singularly depressing time for me when I finally understood that even the best people that I know,the ones most likely to care about the Earths’ fate, would do absolutely nothing.

    Artleads: Thanks for the poem.

    Rob@the library said: “So, leave the lights on, buy a new car, max out your credit cards, water your lawn daily and pour unused paint and toxic household chemicals into your local neighborhood storm drain. Support fracking. Encourage lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride.”

    When considering how I might live my life in the face of NTE I don’t see any merit in becoming disgusting to myself by following the above advice.

  • @ Gail

    “I don’t accept the ‘all equally to blame’ thing”.

    I think you don’t understand. The point is, the outcome – extinction – is and always was inevitable. Thus, blaming white guys or capitalism is just another form of denial, or bargaining, with death and meaninglessness – it’s a way of asserting that if only we remained matrilineal hunter-gatherers, we could have remained in that paradise that was formed in the millions of years of evolution before we popped up.

    Whether you want to subscribe to the physics of entropy, or just examine our biological link to warring tribes of chimpanzees, the outcome is the same – ultimately, a global collapse. So “blaming” is irrelevant, unless you just want to believe that we are capable of rising above the behavior that is etched in our genes.

    Actually, what I had in mind re the ‘we are all equally to blame’, was the ‘we’ of my own and my parents generation, who could have avoided this particular mess if we had chosen to act differently.

    However, if you want the ‘we’ to be as in ‘we’ the human species, and to follow you thesis of genetic determinism, well, I think I do understand you argument, but I’m not in agreement with it 🙂

    Of course I believe we are capable of rising above the behaviour etched in out genes. I don’t even think that there is much behaviour that is etched in our genes.

    We are a species of primate, that’s for sure, and we have domesticated ourselves. And we are all basically genetically much the same with minor variations. After that, the enormous variations are cultural.

    You’ll quote many authors to back your position, but imo, there’s an ideological battle going on, to justify the political power structure that exists. We see this right across the spectrum from the MSM through the education system, academia and the Universities, the book publishing and distribution outlets. The whole of Western soceity is totally dominated by the capitalist ideology. The ideas and theories that get promoted are not neutral, they are propaganda.

    Here’s an example :

    How money and politics can dictate the conclusions of a scientific study

    http://www.independentsciencenews.org/science-media/science-and-social-control-political-paralysis-and-the-genetics-agenda/

    Perhaps you are correct, that eventually, regardless of capitalism or anything else, humans would have brought about the ruination of the biosphere and their own extinction. But they might have had another ten thousand years. Who knows what they might have discovered ?

    As it is, this hyper-rampant destruction began, specifically in the USA, in the 1950s, with the conscious decision to force consumption, so that the economy would race, so as to get ahead of the Soviets, regardless of any consequences. Those decisions were made by a small clique of megalomaniac nutcases. Nothing to do with the general genetics of the human species.

    There’s a random chance element to all of this. It could so easily have turned out differently. I learned that Archimedes discovered calculus more than 2000 years ago. That’s only just been found out from a lost ancient text. If that had been available, then Leibniz and Newton wouldn’t have had to rediscover it all over again. History could have been quite different.

    Who knows what history would have been like if the library at Alexandria had not been destroyed on several occasions, by barbaric mobs ?

    If the British elite had listened to William Blake instead of the greedy ruthless Tory bastards who always exploit everybody and everything to satisfy their own greed and selfish lust for power, Britain could have been a very different place.

  • Ripley says: Oh, and for the long term, for those critters who are still around thousands of years from now, by then the casings around the world’s 17,000 nuclear warheads will have rotted away releasing their plutonium into the environment.

    Extinction Backup

    Flash from collapse news podium:
    Besides other pandemonium,
    Down the line, in doom’s plot,
    Warhead casings will rot,
    Releasing most deadly plutonium.
    ==

    Gail says: If there’s no benefit, isn’t it better to continue BAU and buy time? Is the plan to bring down IndCiv just a romantic ideal to keep us busy and pretend that we’re doing something noble while trashing the planet?….

    Yes We Can

    Our helpless and hopeless role
    Doesn’t stop our survival goal,
    So we’re going to work out
    Plans to run all about,
    And imagine we’re still in control.
    ==

    the virgin terry says: the only thing left to do now is prepare (individual choice), commiserate, and go on living, til u can’t/won’t anymore.

    The Only Thing Left

    Prepare for doom that’s in store,
    Commiserate, ‘cause we’re done for,
    Expect lots of strife,
    But go on with your life
    Till you can’t, or wont, anymore.

  • Jesse,

    I replied to you on the last thread.

  • Gail, you always leave the bonobos out when talking about our branch of the primate tree. We share 98.7% DNA with them as well. I love bonobos.

    I read somewhere that bonobos, dolphins and humans are the only animals known to have recreational sex.

    So, yeah, homo sapiens has gone off the rails but I really loathe absolutes, so to say it was all preordained sort of smacks of religion. There is something to be said for agency, and I think U said it pretty well. I will admit that I simply do not wish to believe we are all preprogramed meat robots.

    My two cents on bringing down industrial civ…..it’s gotta come down, no question. Just whacking away with no plan doesn’t sound too smart. The goal should be a controlled power down. TPTB aren’t going to do that voluntarily, so what would convince them? Where or what is the lever?

  • I keep seeking reasons to live. I took a walk down to the river yesterday. The dragonflies there seem to have reasons to live. They cavort around, I’m told, on important ecological assignments. Facing one face to face, it assumed a dark serious demeanor, and appeared to take its role quite earnestly. I thought about how I liked the green ones, how I hadn’t seen any that day. A few minutes later, a green iridescent dragonfly landed on my sock, and rested weightlessly, supported there a while. It gave me a reason to live.

    Meanwhile… worse than ufo manure:

    Today’s Climate Change Proves Much Faster Than Changes in Past 65 Million Years

    Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=todays-climate-change-proves-much-faster-than-changes-in-past-65-million-years&WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20130807

    Excerpt:

    If the Earth stays on its current course [over the next century] without reversing greenhouse gas emissions, and global temperatures rise 5 degrees Celsius, as scientists say is possible, the pace of change will be at least 50 times and possibly 100 times swifter than what’s occurred in the past… The numbers are imprecise because the comparison is to an era 55 million years ago…

    The changes that are expected ahead will happen much faster than the rate at which species and ecosystems typically are able to adjust…

    “Maple trees are not good at moving,” … “You don’t have forests moving over long distances very, very fast.”

    “We actually don’t have any good examples of them moving as fast as they’ll need to in the future because the climate zones haven’t moved that fast”…

    “In responding to those rapid changes in climate, organisms will encounter a highly fragmented landscape that is dominated by a broad range of human influences,” the study said. “The combination of high climate-change velocity and multidimensional human fragmentation will present terrestrial ecosystems with an environment that is unprecedented in recent evolutionary history.”

  • From two threads back we have
    Apocaloptimist
    Apocolisp
    Apocalypso
    apocallous
    apocomystic
    Apocapalooza

    From the writings of William Burroughs,
    those interested in kicking the hopium habit might try

    Apo(ca)morphine

  • btd, such a way with rhyming words.

    wildwoman, bonobos ‘free lovin” ways are believed to make them the most peaceful (among themselves) and cooperative of apes. i read a book recently titled ‘sex at dawn’ that provides evidence suggesting that our species evolved to be more promiscuous than we now are. of course there are now stds to worry about, but my understanding is most if not all of them originated in other species; we got them after domestication brought us into intimate (no pun intended) contact with them. before acquiring stds, it would have been much more practical to be promiscuous. anyway, it’s nice to associate with others who share the ‘free love’ ethos, if only for ‘moral’ support. i’m of the opinion that sexual repression is encouraged by ‘elites’ to control us as well as to channel much of our erotic passions into more ‘productive’ (work/work/work!!!) activity. also to promote aggression/warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sexual_social_behavior

  • Infants and small children baked to death in cars in the sunshine is an infrequent but regular summer event. Nothing new about it. Homo saps.

    A couple of other summer events:

    Hot car radiators + fools = burns.

    Parties at homes with swimming pools + food served indoors/away from pools: unwatched toddlers drown.

    Winter events:

    Climbing ladders to put up Christmas decorations: Humpty Dumpties have great falls – a nice Christmas bonus for orthopaedic surgeons, thank you!

    In 1973 at the hospital in New York where I was an intern, it rained on December 24, and the temperature dropped below freezing: a sheet of ice outdoors. 24 fractured wrists in 24 hours (+ ankles, etc.).

    And there are others seasonal events also – all reliably bringing folks into the Emergency Departments.

    Grandparent events:
    Visiting grandparents when leaving back their car over and kill a toddler. (Not reported thus, but saw it thrice in 26 years of Emergency Medicine).

    Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
    by Edward Fitzgerald

    LXXI.
    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

    LXXII.
    And that inverted Bowl they call the Sky, Whereunder crawling coop’d we live and die,
    Lift not your hands to It for help—for It
    As impotently moves as you or I.

    LXXIII.
    With Earth’s first Clay They did the Last Man knead,
    And there of the Last Harvest sow’d the Seed:
    And the first Morning of Creation wrote
    What the Last Dawn of Reckoning shall read

  • To Gail and wildwoman

    Of all our ape cousins, only the proboscis monkey can swim (loves it) and is able to control it’s breathing, allowing it to swim underwater for considerable distances – something like 20 meters. It is also the only ape to have a nose like ours which is ideal for swimming. Other apes have blunt noses. I have no idea what percentage of common DNA there exists, but I find the behavior and evolutionary adaptation to be curious.

  • More underestimation and bad news from Fukushima:

    http://enenews.com/twice-as-much-contaminted-water-entering-ocean-from-fukushima-as-officials-claim-japan-govt-600-tons-of-groundwater-enters-ocean-each-day-at-plant-nytimes-tepcos-figures-assume-all-water-ent

    There’s so much there at ENE news that you could spend most of the day researching how dire not only Japan’s situation is, but especially the Pacific Ocean, marine life and the US – which is the direct recipient of both ocean and atmospheric currents from Japan, carrying this toxic radiation to us through rain, wind, ocean currents and food fish.

  • @ Shep: agreed. I’m ready to jump in front of a fast moving train at any moment.

    In the meantime, I’d like some Apa(co)morphine to take the edge off.

    Fukushima is going to kill us all dammit, before collapse really gets ramped up – but, hopefully, we’ll still get to see the govt buildings burn and the politicians hang. More 2-for-1 Pacific Salmon anyone? How about some half-priced Alaskan King Crab?

    It’s August already!, – when are we supposed to see the widespread food riots and skyrocketing inflation and all that? Where are this year’s hurricanes? I was kinda’ hoping for SHTF before Winter…

    The children suffer, there is no redemption.

    Like I’ve said a thousand times, I have minimized my participation in industrial civilization – however, I’m not volunteering at the local shelter or accepting donations and sending them to UNICEF. I’m just laying down in resignation – recognizing that my life is a complete failure and I am guilty of unspeakable crimes against humanity. The dozens of pairs of Nike shoes I bought were ALONE enough to condemn me. Add to that the millions of miles I drove in automobiles, the beef I ate, the vacations I took, the resources I squandered, and I am quite the poster boy for a guilty human being. Sure, there are worse offenders and maybe even some innocents out there – but, I am guilty.

    My pennance is to not aspire.

    I sit and wait. The only thing left for me to look forward to is when SHTF and the govt buildings burn and the politicians hang. That is my last hope. I want to be there to see it – and participate in it – like the Rein of Terror during the French Revolution, yes, that will be wonderful – chaos, marauding hoards, wild-eyed raging cannibals on the loose, pandemonium.

    The children suffer, there is no redemption.

    As if radiation wasn’t bad enough:
    Less than half of Asia has access to sewage treatment plants, but aquaculture – the raising of seafood products – has become big business on the continent, especially in China.

    In China, No. 1 in aquaculture in the world, 3.7 billion tons of sewage is discharged into rivers, lakes and coastal water – some of which are used by the industry. Only 45 percent of China has any sewage-treatment facilities, putting the country behind the rest of Asia.

    How about some Hepatitis A with your cesium-137 laced shrimp cocktail?

    The children suffer.

  • Tom, isn’t it amazing that the news from Fukushima is NOT headline news?

    Where is the NSA? I thought they were collecting all kinds of information to “protect” us. Surely they had some clue?

    And our “right to know” ? Where is that. Where is ANYBODY on this? I thought I was appropriately cynical but I confess amazement.

  • Wildwoman

    I love the idea of Bonobos, the peaceful ape, too. There are a variety of ideas as to why they evolved this way and one involves the type of food they eat. Since they have different foods and different ranges we can assume that the Bonobo lifestyle worked for them and the Chimpanzee lifestyle worked for them (or did until the last 100 years or so). Creatures are how they are because evolution gives them a plan that works for them. Actually I just learned that Bonobos will eat small vertebrates such as flying squirrels and duikers. (wiki) Those creatures probably don’t think Bonobos are peaceful no matter how peaceful they are with each other.

    But given that we live on a planet of limited resources, every creature is in competition for food. Some do it by interspecies cooperation, and even cooperation with other species. Some do it by not cooperating with anyone except their young, and some species don’t even help out their young.

    What evolution doesn’t give us and can’t give us is programs to deal with winning the lottery. A one off event cannot be programmed for by evolution. Thus when one wins the lottery, whether it be zebra mussels (finding themselves transported to the great lakes where they have no predators) or kudzu, or Formosa termites they become a problem. If bonobos lost any controls on population by increased food or loss of predators, I am sure they would overproduce and destroy their environment. In fact their lively sex lives might make them do that quicker than chimpanzees. Chimps with their propensity to fight among themselves might provide population controls even if outside controls were lost.

    I love bunnies too. They are cute and I have never seen them fight each other or other animals. They just eat plants as far as I know. But to the extent that they eat plants that other critters might also want to eat, they compete and deprive others of nutrition. When they do that in my garden unfortunately I can compete with them with tools and I do my best to keep them out, including killing them, so they don’t take the food I want.

    I wish there could be a world of great diversity where each species had a strong internal limit to reproduction and they all ate plants and therefore they could all be peaceful. But the world of great diversity that we have was created by competition for resources that sometimes includes cooperation. But the cooperation is for the sake of competing for the limited resources. It looks better to us but has the same purpose – to appropriate scare resources. That lies at the base of it all. IMO

  • June 28th, 2011
    90% of Shrimp is from toxic sewage ponds in Asia
    by Vic Shayne, PhD
    Ninety (90) percent of all shrimp comes from Asia and is raised in a toxic sewage pond environment. The water is so contaminated and diseased that the farmers use outrageous amounts of antibiotics. So when you eat shrimp, not only are you eating sewage, but you’re also consuming drugs — many of which are illegal in the western world — dipped in cocktail sauce or fried on the barby.

  • I’m all for hiring the handicapped, but why must so many elected positions be occupied by the mentally challenged?

    http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/316047-rep-king-global-warming-more-of-a-religion-than-a-science

  • “…the ‘we’ of my own and my parents generation, who could have avoided this particular mess if we had chosen to act differently.”

    How? I don’t know of any (signficantly large) group of people who has turned down the convenience and power of fossil fuels, any more than they have refrained from chopping down trees – and isn’t burning fuel at the root of the exponential increase in population and consumption?

    Don, I think it was here that somebody shared a youtube video that has the theory that at some point in our evolution we spent a lot of time in the water. I don’t know if it’s true but it is certainly interesting!

    Thanks KathyC for your answer to Wildwoman. It’s true that genetically homo sapiens sapiens are about as close to chimpanzees as to bonobos. The reason chimpanzees are more relevant is that their behavior is much closer to humans than is that of the bonobos. Bonobos resolve conflict (and they do have conflict) with sex. Chimpanzee behavior, although cooperative within their group, is characterized by bands of males who aggressively defend against and attack males from other tribes.

    It’s pretty obvious to me which model is closer to human society.

    The human line diverged from a common ancester with bonobos and chimps about 7 million years ago, and about 900,000 years ago those two ape lines diverged from each other. Separated by a river, there is a very large difference in their habitat:

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/03/125-bonobos/quammen-text

    “Bonobo communities don’t wage violent wars against other bonobo communities adjacent to their territory. Bonobos eat a lot of the herby vegetation that is abundant in all seasons—big reedy stuff like cornstalks and starchy tubers like arrowroot—which offers nutritious shoots and young leaves and pith inside the stems, rich in protein and sugars. Bonobos, then, have an almost inexhaustible supply of reliable munchies. So they don’t experience lean times, hunger, and competition for food as acutely as chimpanzees do. That fact may have had important evolutionary implications.”

    That article poses the question:

    “Do we come from a long line of peace-loving, sex-happy, and female-dominant apes, or from a natural heritage of warfare, infanticide, and male dominance?”

    “The crucial point in his hypothesis is the absence of gorillas, over the past one or two million years, from the left bank of the Congo River.

    The reasons for that absence are uncertain, but the evolutionary consequences seem rather clear. On the river’s right bank, where chimps and gorillas shared the forest, the gorillas ate what gorillas still eat, mainly herby vegetation, and the chimps ate a chimp diet, mainly fruit, tree leaves, and occasionally meat. On the left bank dwelled that other chimpish animal, privileged by circumstance to be free of gorilla competition. “And that’s the formula,” Wrangham told me by phone from his office at Harvard, “that makes a bonobo.” The left-bank creatures, bolstering themselves on a rich chimpanzee diet when it was available and sustained by those staple gorilla foods when it wasn’t, lived a steadier life; they weren’t forced to break into small and unstable foraging groups, diverging, rejoining, scrambling for precious but patchily available foods, as right-bank chimps often are. And that fateful difference in food-finding strategy carried consequences for social behavior, Wrangham explained. The relative stability of foraging groups within a larger bonobo community means that vulnerable individuals usually have allies present at any given moment. This tends to dampen dominance battles and fighting. ‘Specifically,’ he added, ‘females have other females as well as males available to protect them from those that might want to bully them.'”

  • Dear Rob@the public library, do you have any friends or family you can turn to in your area? I think it would be good for you to have some human interaction besides this forum for the grief and anger you are dealing with. Or are you being sarcastic? I feel pretty concerned for you.

  • More argument about methane:

    https://arctic-news.blogspot.ca

  • “My two cents on bringing down industrial civ…..it’s gotta come down, no question. Just whacking away with no plan doesn’t sound too smart. The goal should be a controlled power down. TPTB aren’t going to do that voluntarily, so what would convince them? Where or what is the lever?”

    Is there A lever, or are innumerable forces at play? I heard on the radio THAT ALL NEW SOURCES OF POWER IN THE PAST THREE YERS WERE RENEWABLE. (Sorry. Cap lock error.) There’s a man named Kent Doering, an engineer who is most accessible and happy to share, who’s doing stunning work to provide much saner industrial practices. I’ll look to see if I can find one of his messages, having discarded many. Germany is very far ahead of us, as we all know. Meanwhile we see more and more “agrarian anarchy” movements like Guy’s. (Not nearly enough, but things happen rather more slowly than we would like.) Then again there are the plain old ecological constraints of continuing as before–Fukushima, glaciers gone, water woes–that, although seemingly unheeded, must be keeping some TPTB awake at night.

    I think there’s a lot going on to modify, mollify and alternate for ind civ, but all below the surface. If we can get our minds around what’s happening, that alone will guide us on what we can all do to help. I agree, there is no one in the world who doesn’t have agency of one sort or another.

  • @ tvt: Thanks, but content and most of the text were yours. 🙂
    ==

    Robin Datta says: Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

    LXXI

    The Finger writes, and, having writ,
    Allows you to read your obit;
    Doom gives you the finger,
    And says you won’t linger
    Much longer in all of this shit.

    LXXII

    That Bowl which we call the Sky
    Is a covering lid they apply,
    Whereunder we crawl
    To the petri dish wall,
    Then run out of food and die.

    LXXIII

    The Big Bang determined the text
    Which we read, yet still get perplexed:
    The way it exploded,
    Right then encoded
    Whatever you’re going to do next.

  • @Artleads: you write that “Germany is very far ahead of us, as we all know” in respect of renewables and that “Fukushima is an ecological constraint”.

    In reaction to a fearful-hysterical local electorate after Fukushima, the German Feds turned off some nuclear. There ia a meme in the Anglosphere among Greens at least that Germany is a wind and solar champion. So why are more than 2 dozen, repeat 2 dozen, coal-fired power plants in the pipeline here? Why does German Greenpeace call in its ads for those coal-fired stations to be cancelled? Germany has been importing much coal from the USA recently.

    Why did that German PV solar power output peak – 40% of demand- one summer day not too long ago, the one that Anglo Greens love to quote, get exported i.e. load-shed across-border in the integrated European grid? (24 GW of 60 GW demand at midday on 7.7.2013);

    http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/07/breaking-germany-sets-solar-power-record-again-23-9-gw/

    Answering that question however reveals Renewabilists for the pie-in-the-sky artists that they are, e.g.

    “Far from being a problem, storage could become a conduit for funnelling RE capacity into other energy uses than electricity, esp. transport. Whatever the technical difficulties, and the current cost relative to other storage modalities, I expect gas from solar and wind to become a big industry within a decade.” at: http://cleantechnica.com/2013/07/07/breaking-germany-sets-solar-power-record-again-23-9-gw/

    Oh, so he expects, does he? Cute.

    Because the problem of storing intermittent power (solar, wind) for when it is needed (dark, cold, cloudy conditions, which is not midsummer) has never been solved. Power to Gas looks to be the best option presently. Provided that methane leakage is not greatly higher than everyone has been assuming.

    Come to think of it, how is that lead-acid batteries have not been surpassed as storage since they were invented around 1850? Does the difference between an 1850 black powder musket and a current 2013 rifle not indicate that there is some very intractible power storage technical problem that has persisted for 160 years?

    Sorry to say that only coal, gas, nuclear and hydro are non-intermittent. That is, they are indifferent to clouds and the dark and windlessness.

    Concerning Fukushima, and Saints Gundersen and Caldicott: is it not strange how the green side of NATO-country politics has entirely justified contempt for the corporate media in those countries but believes blind whatever some self-serving, careerist Journalism graduate scribbles about nuclear power in exactly those media?

    Does the newspaperman saying “If it bleeds, it leads” not apply to scaring readers so as to increase advertising revenue via no. of copies sold? Of course it does. Hence:

    http://www.hiroshimasyndrome.com/fukushima-accident-updates.html

  • BtD: Astoundingly put, sir, BRAVO!

    dmd: great post! Methane (and sneaky hydrogen sulfide) are becoming increasingly big-time factors in the self-implosion of ind-civ. and Beckwith SCHOOLS Skeptical Science here in clear, accurate logic and language.

    Wildwoman: It’s truly shocking now that the veil is off for all to see how “government” and “the authorities” are in it for themselves and could care less about the rest of humanity. I read an account somewhere that said that the women of Japan are freaking out that their male mates are sacrificing their own children (not to mention themselves) to the economy and the corporate agenda – which is clearly unable to handle this catastrophe. This is the world’s problem now! Where is everyone?
    [the short answer is “distracted” via industrial civilization]

    Everyone:

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0030604

    Freshly obtained Dandelion roots (from open grassy areas) were processed according to a previously published protocol [9]. The roots were thoroughly washed with distilled water several times. One hundred grams of Dandelion roots were homogenized in 200 ml of distilled water at room temperature using a domestic blender. Total homogenate was filtered through a NITEX nylon mesh filter (LAB PAK; Sefar BDH Inc. Chicoutimi, Quebec CA) and the filtrate was spun down, 8000× g for 5 min at 25°C. The supernatant was filtered using 0.45 µm filters, followed by lyophilisation. The dry powder (% yield: 7.34%) was reconstituted in water to give a stock solution of 100 mg/ml DRE. This was then filtered through 0.22 µm filters and used in the treatment of Chronic Myelomonocytic leukemia cells.

    Results

    DRE effectively induces apoptosis in Chronic Myelomonocytic Leukemia cells

    This extract led to a 60% decrease in the viability of treated cells compared to the control, untreated cells, indicating that DRE could potentially affect the metabolic activity of CMML cells, ultimately leading to cell death, observed in Fig. 1a. Since we observed an approximate decrease in viability of 60% of MV-4-11 cells 96 hours after treatment with DRE, the next step was to determine if DRE has any effect on the other 40% of cells that did not show any apoptotic morphology 96 hours after treatment. MV-4-11 cells were treated with DRE and after 48 hours the cells were removed, from media containing DRE, washed and equal numbers of cells were re-plated (for control and treated cells) in fresh media without the extract. These cells were then analyzed for their ability to revive growth after previous exposure to DRE. Although MV-4-11 cells continued to grow in the absence of DRE, it was observed that cells previously treated with DRE had reduced ability to revive growth and therefore grew at a slower pace than the cells not treated with DRE for 48 hours. More importantly, it was observed that treatment with a second dose of DRE, after 48 hours, could induce apoptosis successfully in all the cells that do not show apoptotic morphology after the first treatment.

    Conclusion

    The results from this study indicate that natural products, in particular Dandelion Root Extract, have great potential, as non-toxic and effective alternatives to conventional modes of chemotherapy available today.

  • Mmmmm I loves me some bonobos!

    A lot of my generation tried to swing over to the bonobo branch of the family tree back 40 or 50 years ago, but our troop’s alpha males weren’t too happy about it. They made the grass we were consuming illegal, and beat a bunch of us up, so we stopped the sex and got government jobs instead.

    It sure was more fun living like that than like this, though. We miss it. A lot.

  • Our patience will achieve more than our force.

    Edmund Burke

    It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.

    Julius Caesar

    It will come down, billions will starve, but I’m having frog legs tonight.

  • Tom

    about Fukushima:
    Is that why this British expert is lying on Russia Today about something happening half the world away from Britain? (His body language tells me he does not wish to lie.)

    this video tells me that we are in serious trouble. It is almost like the expert has a gun in his back, so to speak; and what does that say about the situation? And the leak is barely mentioned on NPR, in passing, in-between the (inaccurate) reports of how well the economy is doing and the latest in the world of yellow journalism.

  • Dear TIAA — Sorry I missed your comment on the previous thread addressed to me “Dear Mike k, I believe it is fear of disempowerment we are dealing with.”

    The fear you mention is the fear addicts feel when their source is threatened. The primary addiction in our culture is to power/safety/comfort/status. Because of the intense competition to gain these things, we never feel we have enough, and hence are in an unending and desperate search for MORE. The fundamental need we are trying to fulfill is to have ENOUGH so that we can relax and enjoy our lives, but the various addictive activities we are pursuing never yield us this satisfaction, but drive us to seek it by futilely increasing the amounts and varieties of things that do not fulfill our real needs, but only continually increase our sense of unfulfillment and dissatisfaction. Like drinking sea water these vain addictive activities only increase our thirst. Of course those who have positioned themselves to be the dealers and pushers of these bogus will-of -the-wisp answers to our cravings can profit greatly and lead us by the nose to work ourselves to exhaustion in hopes to finally grasp the elusive carrot dangled temptingly just out of reach. This game sometimes goes by the name of capitalism. Seeing one’s participation in this losing game and dropping out of it usually requires help from those who have awakened before, and are in a position to share the methods that enabled them to disengage from our addictive culture. The whole sorry deal depends on keeping its victims in unconscious delusion and expends great efforts to make escape from the system very difficult. Groups practicing methods to live beyond our failed culture often refer to their activities as spiritual paths, but the beliefs and life ways can be quite various and even include things not commonly associated with ‘spiritual’ such as atheism or secular ideologies. Without help from like minded folks it is very difficult to deprogram oneself successfully from the pervasive social paradigm.

  • OK peeps, ready to get your doom on? (CME = Coronal Mass Ejection)

    http://spaceweather.com/

    NOAA forecastesrs estimate a 60% chance of polar geomagnetic storms on August 10th when one and perhaps two CMEs are expected to hit Earth’s magnetic field. The incoming clouds were propelled from the sun by a flurry of erupting magnetic filaments on Aug. 6-7. High-latitude sky watchers should be alert for auroras.

  • ‘The big idea does seem to be the enemy of the small.I have met with a group of people for several years,mostly as a garden/permaculture/homestead group.Someone suggested that we read DGR as a group and so we read it and met to discuss it over a 2 month period. In the same time period Guy was in the area and we all saw his presentation and discussed that as well. It was a pretty intense time for some people,learning about how bad our situation is. We talked alot about what we might do,how far people might be willing to go to protect what they cherished,etc.
    After weeks of Potlucks and discussions the general consensus was that everyone agreed with the basic premises outlined in the book,thought it was likely we were going to cause mass extinctions and were completely unwilling to engage in any activities suggested in the book.
    The ideas were to big,dangerous and destructive to consider and so were rejected out of hand without saying “Well, is there something I am I willing to do?”
    Everyone went back to business as usual.It was a singularly depressing time for me when I finally understood that even the best people that I know,the ones most likely to care about the Earths’ fate, would do absolutely nothing.’

    the above quote from thestormcrow may serve as a nice segue to what’s on my mind tonite. first, it’s such a typically juicy meaty nbl quote, it needs addressing.

    i agree that big picture despair often (perhaps for some including myself?, always) trumps little picture action. but it isn’t that simple, as your whole quote illustrates. for even the little picture tends to suck for the vast majority, seems to me. it does for me. it isn’t just that ‘resistance is futile’. it seems impossible, unless one’s willing to be a very near term martyr (vntm), in at least a figurative sense.

    maybe i lack resilience. failure sucks. it goes down easier when the least effort has been made to succeed. i know, i’m being totally defeatist. i can hear Stephanie Jo Kent right now: ‘If all you can do is shoot down hope, then shut the fuck up.’ i think she has an excellent point.

    ‘doomers’ are ‘losers’, but so aren’t all humans, if ‘doomers’ are right. we simply see the future sharper and truer, or so we think. we see ‘the handwriting on the wall’. we’ve read too many facts and too many honest, well informed opinions, and witnessed too much stupidity and insanity, up close and personal, to have much ‘faith’ in or hope for ourselves or our sheeple.

    the orwellian cult of scientology promotes ‘think for yourself’ to it’s members, when it isn’t in the process of brainwashing. i think they’ve unwittingly pointed out our ultimate problem. flawed/limited thinking/reasoning. it afflicts us all to some extent. it seems a severe epidemic that afflicts a large majority to an extent that… is simply surreal.

    far ‘advanced’, societies/nations i think are remarkably cultish/dogmatic. there isn’t a whole lot of original or critical thinking going on about matters critical to our long term survival. there isn’t great awareness. it’s a great big crazy suicide cult that only a very small handful aren’t dependent upon, physically, or beholden to spiritually. it’s a cult in which misinformation, deceit, and delusion thrive, which just so happens to serve ‘elite’ interests to a tee.

    it all seems so pointless from a ‘humanity matters’ p.o.v.. only when one thinks like paul chefurka stuff like we’re here to serve 2lot, does a possible purpose make sense.

    ‘The children suffer.’ so do the adults. u may retort, ‘but the children are innocent!’. so were adults, when we were children. so what has innocence got to do with it?

    ‘there is no redemption.’ amen, brother rob.

  • ‘The results from this study indicate that natural products, in particular Dandelion Root Extract, have great potential, as non-toxic and effective alternatives to conventional modes of chemotherapy available today.’ very interesting, tom.

    ‘Mmmmm I loves me some bonobos!’ thanks for the big smile, p.chef.

  • Tamsen Miller says: …this British expert is lying….

    at 2:25: “…it’s very unlikely that anybody is going to, uh, suffer any direct health effects, uh, from this harrumph….”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l3oL9DM2Hc

    It’s safe (my palm has been greased—
    Except for the ill and deceased);
    Harrumph: there’s my views,
    And in other news,
    Chocolate rations have been increased.

  • Dear Rickover,

    I can’t follow you with the science, but can refer you to a blogging buddy who works all over and appears to be stationed in Germany. Kent Doering strikes me as a caring person who is most enthusiastic to share his brilliant innovations despite being in another universe from myself technologically. If anyone wants the real technological deal–and it ain’t me babe–I can share a way to contact him.

    The quote below results from poor Kent trying to send me something simple related to the developing world. I insisted that anything more complicated would make my head spin.

    “One small example of tech transfer is the following story. Brack water prawn fishermen in Southern Sr lanka and the fresh water Sardine fishermen on Lake Victoria use night fishing – kerosine lamps on wood or bamboo rafts to attract the fish and prawns. The cost cutting Siemens solution to that was to put up cheap solar and wind- charging battery packs for floursecent lamps on the rafts instead- cutting costs while displacing kerosene, and making it safer to use due to less chance of fire-due to spilled kerosene.
    Hospitals are being built- and they need high temperature waste incineration to cut disease. Many will use Brown´s gas waste incineration- from Korean B.E.S.T. tech- with exhaust heat driving Stirling motor compact p.g. units- for power. Solar is going up on the roofs and compact concentrated solar with oil heat storage- driving Stirlings provides 24/7 p.g. in addition to low vortical wind turbines on the roofs. All kinds of neat “local solutions” are developing in the cooperation between the Europeans and the Africans and Asians.
    You have to remember that over 1 billion people still rely on kerosene for lighting in Asia, Africa, Latin America… and they all want renewables for light and cooking heat. These can be very simple in design.”

    Artleads here again. We just put solar panels on the roof. We are tied into the utility, and anticipate that our electric bill will be zero, give and take. We have our own propane tanks for heating. We would have preferred to be off grid, but that costs a lot more. So, if the grid goes down, our system goes down too. But at least we’re taking a little pressure off over all emissions while keeping our costs stable. Ironically, it’s not incompatible with how I’ve been thinking recently. Do whatever is feasible (and intuitive) to make industrial civilization less toxic. But at the same time, lose no opportunity to get away from it altogether. If we try to bring it down as a whole, we lose sight of the majority of people who are dependent on it just to survive. OTOH, if we ourselves become independent of civilization, we aren’t hurting anyone else. We are bringing down the system slowly.

  • Went to a Friday night gathering of car fans tonight with my brother-in-law. No shortage of big block V8 power, cheese curds and rock and roll. 🙂

    Rock on!

  • If I read a previous comment correctly Dr. M. is in The Netherlands? If this is true, it’s a good development. I was going to encourage him to take his message outside of the US, since I know that it will never gain any traction in this hopeless country.
    Another reason to do this is concerns a possible way of implementing the idea of terminating the industrial economy. Have Dr M. or any other environmentalists ever considered the possibility of terminating the industrial economy of a country that doesn’t have very much of it to terminate? In other words, start with a small step just show it can be done. It would be something that could be done relatively quickly, and would serve as an example of exactly what we mean by “terminate industrial civilization.”
    Joshua Headley mentioned Nigeria in this article, but why not start with a country with even less industrial infrastructure like Mali? I was surprised to find that there are a couple of dozen countries that have ave power use per capita of less that 10 watts per person, in the US it’s over 1400 watts per person. In Chad it’s only 1, so if what little ind civ they had was terminated, it would hardly be noticed. You could say that these countries are already living examples of what the post termination economy looks like. If people have an actual example of what you mean when you say terminate ind civ, it will be much easier for them to implement your idea, don’t you think?

  • Bonobo athletics aside for the moment…

    It is strange how difficult it is to fully accept hopelessness with my entire being. While my mind can see the overwhelming evidence of impending human extinction — my heart refuses to have any part of it. It just keeps pounding away, valiantly, against the storm of mental sleet.

    My heart feels love that heals wounds, deep and old.
    My head knows some wounds are fatal.

    My heart says: ‘Never give up!’
    My head says: ‘Its too late.’
    My heart: ‘How can it be too late? We’re still here!’
    My head: ‘The future is written by the present. The story is a tragedy.’
    My heart: ‘We’ll cry our way out, our tears will wash a path to happiness.’
    My head: ‘There is no scientific basis for that.’
    My heart skipped a beat.
    My head hurt.

    At this point my stomach had enough, chimed in, and announced it was hungry… time to eat and stop the noisy chattering.

    Being here… I still have a few thoughts to think and some life to love and a bit of food to eat, so… my head and my heart gave way to my stomach. Again.

    My heart said: ‘See?’
    My head said: ‘Wait and see.’

    Meanwhile, bon appétit.

    Après dinner I think I’ll wander around until I find an agreeable bonobo. The sapiens in this neck of the jungle don’t tolerate pathetic bleeding heart doomers. [lonely dire-wolf howl] Dam… sure hope that didn’t scare off all the cute bonobos.

  • @ Tom

    ..Beckwith SCHOOLS Skeptical Science here in clear, accurate logic and language.

    It’s a much bigger deal than that. Gavin Schmidt, Chris Colose, David Archer, and others at RealClimate and SkepticalScience have been claiming to hold the authoritative high ground regarding climate change for years, debunking the denialists, and various green voices have been quoting them as support.

    Well, now that’s all in ruins, isn’t it. Because Schmidt and Colose and Archer have shown their true colours. They’ve been debunked by Beckwith, and rather than respond as honourable professional scientists, and refute his points or agree to differ in a courteous manner, once having established the exact details of the contested area, they just block Beckwith out altogether because he’s embarrassed them and shown them to be incompetent !

    But it’s MUCH WORSE than that, they are dismissing the work of reputable scientists who have been going to the area for years and have seen what is happening with their own eyes, as if that just does not count at all. Unbelievable, and totally disgraceful.

    http://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/2013/08/08/the-point-of-focus/comment-page-1/#comment-8710

  • From Concepción, Chile.
    There is no case to become insane about a system that is insane.

    Now I am in peace with myself and my past life.
    It was too late when I became aware of the climate change, peak oil and the rest.
    Most of the CO2 is not my fault, nor the people that live in my country. That includes my parents and grandparents.
    And I am also in peace with my future too. No nightmares about it, even considering NTE, regardless of how it will be.
    I am convinced that my efforts to change things, and save other people outside of my very close relatives, will be useless, but I will keep spreading the news to anyone who wants to listen.
    So I will focus the rest of my life to enjoy simple things, and prepare my family to face the best possible way whatever comes. We have to learn to improvise.
    Chances to survive are almost none, but I want to discover the truth along the way, by experience. To suppose scenarios is also useless, because these are totally unknown territories, in all ways.
    We are all dammed from the day we were born. To die at 50, 60 or 90, it does not matter. We will die anyway. It does not matter how.

    It is interesting to know as things unfold. But I guess there is no point in spending a big energy in trying to know in advance how it will everything REALLY happen. The process is too complex, we will always miss something. I have designed many ships along my life, and always, with them built, I have discovered that I have missed a few concepts, that were not included in the design. Because real life is much more complex than we can imagine.

    We have to enjoy the simple things of our life, while we have time. And in the process, try to learn how to live off the grid.
    I will live the city life for a few years more, if possible, and later move to the country. To an Island in the south part of my country, that I like very much.
    Living in the country will not save me, but by far will be better than living in the city, and at the same time I will feel better.

    This song talks about death, and how young people do not want to die.

    The video was recorded in the Lanalhue lake, close to Concepción City.

  • I’m not sure about this post; it seems to waver between something can be done and nothing can be done. I don’t think anything can be done to save civilisation, not even increased public transit! But maybe something can be done to ensure some parts of the planet remain habitable. Unfortunately, nothing effective is being done and there seems to be no way to get a movement to overturn civilisation. Derek Jensen has been trying to whip one up for years. I love him but where are those hackers, which Endgame described, that can do the business? Seems like they were all talk and I certainly can’t do anything except try and extract myself from civlisation as much as I can within the limitations of being married with (adult) children.

    Ulvfugl,

    That link you gave about methane seems to be flawed. It talks about the “half-life” of methane but methane doesn’t act like that; it pretty much all gone within about 12 years, there would definitely be none of the originally emitted methane after about 30 years, from graphs I’ve seen. Take a look at this chapter (PDF) about methane. If methane were 500 times as powerful as CO2, we’d be at about 1300 ppm CO2e by now and it would definitely be game over already. The highest figure I’ve seen some discussion of is 70 times as powerful, though some credible sources take it up to about 120 times. The document I linked to has it as 63 times as powerful over 20 years though I believe a higher number should be used, since the concentration of methane is increasing (i.e. the methane being degraded each year is more than being replaced, so the warming effect is at maximum). However, aerosols seem to negate most or all of the extra greenhouse gases. That’s a ticking time bomb, of course because as societies collapse, the aerosol level will decrease and the rate of warming will increase. Apparently, GHGs that contain fluorine are the most powerful of all with all of them increasing, just adding the predicament we face.

  • I’m not sure about this post. It seems to vary between the notions that nothing can be done and that something can be done. I don’t see any likelihood of civilisation doing anything other than contracting from now on, collapsing in some areas quite soon. I don’t think Obama improving public transit will help at all!

    I’ve got a lot of time for Derek Jensen but I do wonder where the hackers described in Endgame are? If they can bring down civilisation or at least put big dents in it, why are they leaving it so long?

    Ulvfugl (in this comment), I think that calculation of methane effectiveness is wide of the mark. For a start, methane doesn’t really have a “half life”, it’s not radioactive. It has an effective residency time which, as far as I can determine, is about 12 years, though Ive seen some graphs that show a little methane left at about 30 years but nothing after that. I haven’t found a good treatment of the greenhouse power of methane but this document puts it at 63 times CO2 over 20 years. Personally, I think I much higher factor should be used since methane concentrations are increasing so residency times don’t really come into play, except, perhaps, for methane bursts.
    Fortunately (or unfortunately) aerosols seem to more or less cancel out methane forcing (and the forcing of even more powerful greenhouse gases) at the moment. Once aerosol emitting societies start contracting, of course, all bets are off. Interestingly, I did see a blog entry on methane which showed it to be a less powerful GHG than CO2, at high concentrations. I’m not sure if that lets us off the hook, though, since we’ll probably be fried before methane’s effectiveness starts to decrease.

    [Apologies if another similar comment of mine goes up, I thought I’d posted one but I may not have gone through the whole process, or it may be in the works.]

  • Here is some information on the satellites being used to generate much of the information we are discussing here.

    Nasa AIRS satellite that registers CO2 among other gases:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fairs.jpl.nasa.gov%2F&ei=A_sFUqGHG4ezyAGZt4DAAQ&usg=AFQjCNF1aEHZxlSbswZZhHpFv141ZUUlgQ&bvm=bv.50500085,d.aWc&cad=rja

    IASI satellite that registers CH4:

    Here is the Google earth plug-in for IASI data: http://methanetracker.org/

    Giovanni satellite for surface temperature,water vapor, etc:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&sqi=2&ved=0CFcQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGiovanni_(meteorology)&ei=VvwFUqHAFqWqiALP44HoCQ&usg=AFQjCNFaRuVkJAYF53rxy6rOhXhE5ANt1w&bvm=bv.50500085,d.aWc&cad=rja

    Aqua satellite measures sea ice, soil moisture etc: