Video Clips, an Essay, and an Interview

The two clips embedded below were shot by Pauline Schneider a month ago. They are part of a documentary film she is creating.

My latest essay for Transition Voice was posted today. “As the Empire declines it gets nastier” is linked here.

UPDATE: I was interviewed by Michael C. Ruppert on the Lifeboat Hour Sunday evening, 22 September at 6:00 p.m. Pacific time (9:00 p.m. Eastern). The result is embedded below.

Comments 232

  • Boulder, CO, Wed, Oct 16, is on my calendar!
    Hope to meet fellow NBL people there…

  • Guy, when I first came here, through chance, and by Climate Change research. I thought, This man is a real kook. Although, I was confused and a bit curious. I waited, I paused, I came back to your site.
    I reviewed your videos. I read your essays. I left to double, triple and quadruple check your “facts”. I was sure I could debunk your gloomy forecast. Truth is: I cannot. What you say is true. It is true in the worst way.
    You are one of the very few guys that tell it straight.
    You don’t cloak the gloom in a mystical cover, or prolong the demise for 50-100 or more years. You don’t pretend that a “special” few will escape the brutal end with superior skills or a well stocked supply shed. The truth is, WE ARE DONE.

    PS: How can I be a site member to comm with other like-minded?

  • When you get to Boulder, check out how well Rocky Flats fared in the floods. Of interest believe it or not Reader’s Digest carried this bit from a book about Rocky Flats
    My Nuclear Neighboryood by Kristen Iversen
    On Democracy Now for September 18 this was said – but I can’ find any news about it other than that.
    JIM PULLEN: That, I think that is going to take some weeks, very unfortunately. There are two things going on — well there are several things that are going on that are of incredible concern. Of course, in any flood event, there are going to be a lot of contaminants in the water. There are going to be dead animals, there are going to be — there are oil stations — gasoline stations that have been inundated. People’s homes have been inundated, and people keep a lot of chemicals in their homes that are under relatively low protection.

    We have some very serious issues here in the state of Colorado in addition to those normal flooding issues. We have the Rocky Flats plant, or what was once upon a time the Rocky Flats Plant where plutonium is underground. And there has been extensive flooding in that area. And we also have tens of thousands of active oil and gas wells in the state, 20,000 alone in Weld County. The industry — a lobbying group is reporting 1900 of those oil and gas wells have been shut down, and including the two largest suppliers, Noble Energy and Anadarko are reporting about five to ten percent of their wells have been shut down.

    For example, Noble Energy owns 7600 wells in Weld County itself, which is right to the northeast of us. So, there are a lot of contaminants potentially floating around. And in the case of Rocky Flats, I spoke with a Kristin Iverson last night and she said it is going to take weeks for laboratory results of plutonium and other contaminants to become available to the public.

  • Rocky Flats is just South of Boulder. Most of the flooding was North-Northeast of Rocky Flats.

    Not to say that there is NOTHING to worry about, just that area was not hit very hard and no rivers run through that area…

    Also, all the rivers run North-Northeast out of Denver area, including Boulder. The Platte runs North-Northeast out of Denver all the way up to Nebraska…

    The farmland all around Greeley was just coming to harvest – and now it’s covered in toxic surface run-off goo of this, that and the other… and you know they will wash it off and sell it – lots of cattle feed and such – that shit is going to end up on your table sooner or later. Some products grown in Greeley are sugar beets, corn, potatoes, onions and baby carrots. People also raise cattle, sheep, chickens and other livestock to sell as meat or dairy products.

  • Further to Guy’s likening the mainstream media to a ‘circus’ in the video clip posted above, the cover of the current Time magazine states that Google is going help us ‘live forever’.

    Obviously, they’ve yet to get Guy’s memo on NTE.

  • cuntagious says: mainstream media…‘circus’

    The New York Times

    Time was, I’d rely on its views:
    They were Truth, all I’d need to peruse;
    But now I can see
    That with NTE,
    They’re nothing but yesterday’s news.

  • BtD – Brilliant!

  • As I scan the reports of the Colorado floods, and read the statements by gas and oil and other officials which are little more than weasel words and deflection mouthed by sociopaths, it occurs to me (again) that any and all levels of damage, destruction and death is acceptable in order to keep the system going. Regardless of whether it occurs in Nigeria, the Middle East, Asia or the U.S.

    Any amount of damage is acceptable.

    There will be no discussion of shutting down the oil and gas wells that are in the flood plains and basins of the Front Range, no, only how fast can they be brought back to production.

    Damage to the Economy must be minimized at ALL costs. ALL externalized costs that is. As long as those COSTS are shifted to the Community of Life, and not on the balance sheets of the CORPORATIONS.

    This is the plan folks.

  • @ cuntagious, thanks. As a kid, I used to hold The Gray Lady in the highest regard, and I’ve just been progressively disappointed. The whole MSM viewpoint seems to differ more from the doomer viewpoint almost daily. P.S. If you’ll indulge me, what I should have written is this:

    The New York Times

    Time was, I’d rely on its views:
    It was Truth, all I’d need to peruse;
    But now I can see
    That with NTE,
    It’s nothing but yesterday’s news.

  • I would be grateful if Mr. McPherson would address the notion of “mitigation”. There are many scientists, technology experts, and crank deniers that extol one or more panaceas or technological “fixes”: expectations of rapid renewable energy source and transportation engine replacement, geo-engineering, soil humus replenishment, “de-carbonizing” and carbon sequestration, and even diminished solar activity leading to a new “mini ice age”. The most recent one give a rather rosy scenario of possible continued growth. It was published here

    “The study, by the Energy Futures Lab and Grantham Institute of Climate Change at Imperial College, London, says the key is employing technology to radically decarbonise the world’s energy sector: this, say the researchers, can be accomplished with technologies that either currently exist on a commercial scale, have been demonstrated to work or are still awaiting full-scale deployment.”

    It sounds like the same old denial to me. Would you care to study this and comment? Thanks for all your insights.

  • “Bolivian president to sue US govt for crimes against humanity”


    A global class action suit with an attached petition for the Community of Life might be more effective, but hey, at least it is something.

  • very minor quibble, guy, with one of your favorite sayings, the one about ‘obedience at home, oppression abroad’. obedience and oppression, don’t these go together like siamese twins? wherever one is, so must be the other. so it seems to me.

    another minor quibble: calling the policy of arctic oil drilling (and by extension all forms of reaching for the high hanging fruits left on the fossil fuel tree) another self reinforcing feedback loop is bogus, because, a) fossil fuel resources are now near peak, and will surely soon face rapid decline. so if anything this is a negative feedback loop, not a positive one, and b) feedback loops refer to natural processes, not artificial ones like human foolishness (which shall also be going into decline soon enough, with our demise).

    another quibble (after a while quibbles add up, don’t they?): u state on the second video (at the 4 minute mark) that people have been dying from deadly 95 degree wet bulb temperatures in china? let me try googling that now: ok, i think i see where u got that; here:

    as i expected, nothing in the article supports your claim. perhaps a hurried reading of this in the article is what misinformed u:

    ‘The worst heatwave in 140 years smothered about 1/3 of China, a sprawling area covering about 3 million square miles. At the heat epicenter, Shanghai, a region inhabited by 23 million people, saw daytime temperatures above 35 degrees C (95 F) for more than 25 days during July of 2013.’

    let’s try another article, here:

    all they say is the wet bulb temp. in shanghai came near 35 c, without even specifying how near (perhaps because it wasn’t all that close). dangerous, oppressive heat to be sure, but not heat that has passed that threshold of deadly to all humans 35 c.

    it may be quibbling or it may not, guy, but science, unlike art, and g-forbid, ‘divine revelation’, is predicated on precision and accuracy. there is no room for careless, shoddy, misinterpretations of facts or data, which is why, to me, your scientific chops aren’t up to par. (a further quibble: it wouldn’t matter anyway if they were, u’d still be marginalized in a culture of dogmas, deceit, and delusion)

    worse yet, this mis-statement of yours reveals a profound ignorance of the subject matter of which u spoke. first, the highest, wet bulb temperatures on land occur in low lying tropical/ subtropical coastal regions, which in china means the southern and southeastern coasts. these are the most heavily populated parts of the country, among the most heavily populated regions of the world. deadly 35 c wet bulb temp. anywhere would be a shattering precedent. if it happened where millions of people live, even if it came within a few degrees of happening, it would be the biggest story maybe ever, because it would entail both mass forced evacuations and mass deaths of millions. if u knew this, obviously u couldn’t have jumped to the wrong conclusion that u did. so this one is no mere quibble. it’s more an enormous gaffe. the sort of gaffe that greatly discredits the gaffer, to those who perceive it.

    it’s one thing to be suave, self assured, and articulate, as u are in spades as a public speaker, but there’s no substitute for accuracy/knowledge. and no greater flaw in a scientist than inaccuracy and ignorance of your subject.

  • there was also this paragraph in the scribbler article that would indicate wet bulb temps in shanghai did indeed come very close to 35c, had it been accurate:

    ‘Forecasts for tomorrow and Friday are showing Shanghai temperatures will probably reach at least 107-108 degrees Fahrenheit (42 C) in an area where relative humidity is forecast to be 50% and where barometric pressures are forecast to remain around 1005 millibars of mercury. This brings us to the extraordinarily dangerous high wet bulb temperature of 33 degrees Celsius. And should thermometers crack 113 degrees (F) under those same temperature and pressure conditions, Earth will have achieved a new and very ominous wet bulb temperature record of 35 degrees Celsius.’

    comments to this article began aug. 6, 2013, a tuesday, so the ‘tomorrow and friday’ referred to above would be aug. 7 and 9. ok, easy enough to check that out, like here:

    weather buffs are familiar with a couple of facts: under humid conditions, overnight low temps. tend to be very close to wet bulb temps. indeed overnight lows cannot go below the wet bulb temp. the data shown on the link above indicate that maximum wet bulb temps in shanghai on those days were around 86 and 87 degrees fahrenheit, or right around 30/31c. again, imprecise/inaccurate to come up with a 33c wet bulb prediction, perhaps by taking a humidity reading of slightly less than 50% and rounding it up to 50%? who knows? point is, extraordinary claims such as this should be investigated and validated before being accepted as fact and passed along as such.

    also the predicted high temps for shanghai on those dates, according to scribbler, didn’t come very close to the mark (actual highs of 103 and 100f). i couldn’t check on the source by which scribbler went by for this, as the link he provided goes to the current forecast, not the old one he looked at.

    quibble, quibble, quibble, u may say. well, facts are facts, and without fact checkers, assertions are simply assertions.

  • interestingly, wunderground gives different data (higher temp. recordings) for shanghai last month:

    aug 7: high 105, low 87
    aug.9: high 104, low 89 (indicating possible wet bulb temp. of 31-32 c.)

    i’m guilty of imprecision myself i think, when i stated earlier that even a few degrees shy of deadly 35 would translate to millions of deaths. probably should have said a couple rather than a few, and added that such must be sustained for several (6+) hours. so guy, u’re wrong in claiming the deadly threshold has already been reached in china, but i think u’re right in raising the point that global warming is getting perilously near that threshold, and of course it’s only going to get worse.

  • Guy, thanks for the synopses. Question:

    If it is loss of habitat that is primary for NTE, why won’t the technological means for producing food be what feeds us (and not that I desire this, but if it’s all there is and it will keep us alive)?

    “Printing” of meat, meal replacement powders, and other technological foods are in the works; do you know about them? Again, though not “natural,” they may technically become a means for food if we cannot grow it. How do you view this?

    Check it out:

  • tvt, you don’t understand the positive in positive feedback. Scribbler apparently revised his essay: Earlier he wrote that thousands of Chinese were dying because of wet-bulb temperatures in excess of 35 C.

    Jack, I don’t think we have sufficient energy to feed people with conventional means, much less 3-D printing.

  • vis-a-vis energy. . . the latest from Ugo Bardi:


    Do a search for Dave Murphy’s Hubber’s Net Energy Graph for an additional visual.

  • Jack, put down pen for a while and read someone else’s writing. The best explainer of Peak Oil is IMO Richard Heinberg. You can start with his book
    The Party’s Over and move on through Peak Everything, Powerdown, Blackout etc.

    Or you can read the short version of the end of civilization by Richard Duncan – google “Olduvai Theory Richard Duncan winter 2005” and you will find the issue of The Social Contract that carried his 2005 version.

    I thought everyone here knew we were at peak oil and how the convergence with disastrous climate change would magnify the disaster. Just when we need more fuel to fight ever bigger forest fires the quantity of fuel to do that is going to go down, likewise remediation of other weather disasters. And there is Peak Phosphate. And peak fresh water (are you aware how depleted the world’s freshwater aquifers are). And peak ocean fish from fishing and now from ocean acidification. Please don’t mention solar panels and windmills. Not a single one has been made yet without oil – whether to manufature, mine materials, refine materials, move materials, create and maintain roads to move materials.

    Oh and check out ERoEI – that is Energy Returned on Energy Invested. It takes energy to mine oil, coal, and make solar panels and windmills. Its the net energy that matters. When we got 100 barrels of oil by using 1 barrel damn we could do anything. Now it is down to about 20 barrels from 1 barrel and oil sands and fracking may be down to 3 barrels to 1 invested. When it takes one barrel of oil to produce one barrel there is no net energy and that is the end of mining oil, no matter how much is still in the ground. The link anthony provided should help you get a grasp on that concept.

    Put down the pen, back to the books…..Some of us have been looking at this for years, trust us, we will never print food. Civilization will crash with our without anyone’s help. I thought for 10 years that a dieoff of immense proportions was coming, on the peak oil blogs people thought population would drop to maybe 500 million, or at most a billion. Then I found Guy’s site and I realized that the climate was getting bad too fast for the end of oil to save us. And then Fukushima happened and I knew it was all over. All those years talking about the end of the grid from the end of fuel, and until Fukushima it just never dawned on me that the end of the grid would make 427 nuclear plants go critical.

    Too bad for us.

  • why won’t the technological means for producing food be what feeds us

    Technology is already feeding us.

    Technology is the methods by which energy is harnessed and channelled to more efficiently convert resource into product. A secondary objective may be increasing the efficiency of energy use: less wasted energy, more conversion.

    Nature’s technology is exposed to consequences that feedback continuously and force adaptation, improving resilience.

    Humans technology is shielded from its feedbacks to the extent possible and its complexity becomes fragile.

    Increasing energy constraints do not bode well for technology: technology does not create energy or resources, but promotes their conversion into product, and at best may increase efficiency in the conversion.

  • Two for today…
    See previous thread…

  • Guy,

    Looks like I’m stuck in Austin while you’ll be on the road.
    Returning to CR before you get back to NM.
    Maybe next time, somewhere.
    Hopefully you’ll have amigos del diablo on the road
    and not “blue-light cheap hotels”…
    or a holding tank for marching against Monsatano.
    Remember, there’s nothing you can hold for very long.
    WE might have been built to last, but not last forever.

    Pretty sure 3-D printing is not alchemy.
    You can use plastic input material to make a plastic gun if you want to (and it’ll work well enough for a while), but the input material for a steak or muscle will need to be protein, which, if it’s in short supply, will usually get eaten before it’s turned into input material for the printer.
    Maybe TPTB will have these gadgets and suitable input material in their bunkers.
    Maybe a nice New York Strip will be the last human’s Last Supper.
    If only Salvador Dali were around now to paint the foreseeable event.

  • The Arctic Methane Emergency Group (AMEG) has released a new report calling for major action to avert human extinction due to runaway greenhouse warming. Key findings are:

    •Carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere are increasing at a more and more rapid rate.
    •This is happening much faster than at the great Permian Extinction event (90% of all species lost) 249 million years ago.
    •A runaway greenhouse event is now likely under way.
    •Continued business as usual will lead to wide-spread agricultural failures due to drought and extreme weather by 2020. This will lead to societal collapse and human extinction by 2040.
    •Immediate action should be taken by global governments to bring about rapid reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and implement geo-engineering to halt the loss of arctic sea ice (no chance of this IMO).

    Read the full report here:

  • “What is the worst thing you’ve read today? The second worst? And the worst after that? How do you decide? What matters?

    In a world where we are exposed to news events from all around the world every minute of the day, it has become more challenging to give a single story the attention it deserves. This is a problem.”

  • Artleads was asking about TPTB

    “The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities. ”
    -Zbigniew Brzezinski

    @ Ronin Datta

    RoNin ? What have you done with my friend RoBin ? Does he sleep with the fishes ? I do hope you gave him the hero’s funeral he deserved..

  • Infanttyrone:

    I thought about the input when i first heard of the meat printing and have been unable to discover what the input material and process is, if nay of substantial amount. Did you read the article i linked above? they re grown in a petri dish; not sure how much input is needed. Anyway, I am curious, though not hungry for it!

  • Kathy Cassandra says: Some of us have been looking at this for years….

    Ballad of a Thin Man

    In non-supernatural zones,
    We use Google to look up unknowns;
    Something’s happening here,
    But you don’t see it clear,
    Do you, Mr. Jones?

    Professor McPherson’s Class

    Welcome to our little thready:
    We know that doom makes you unsteady;
    Ask things everyone knows,
    And you’ll hear groans from those
    Who have done their homework already.

  • Jack Weber,

    I read the article you linked to, but not the 2011 article linked to within that…the one about petri dishes.

    I’m not a specialist on 3-D printing, but I have read more than a few articles about the tech. Maybe these steak folks have come up with something revolutionary, but I suspect not. I just think in terms of how our bodies make muscle. We need amino acids as the precursors to our construction of proteins, which proteins are the precursors to our building of muscle. Seems to me like that “soupy cell culture liquid” would have to be something on the order of what eventually turns into tofu. Unless you have a lot of money and feel the need for a steak, why not just eat the tofu (or for that matter, the soybeans that preceded it) ? If you can turn something unrelated to steak
    (precursor-wise) into a steak, it seems like the next thing to do is to make something unrelated to gold into the yellow shiny stuff.
    I’m inclined to go along with Guy in that we probably don’t have the resources to supply 7 billion of us with soybeans or tofu, much less soupy cell culture liquid & electrically powered hardware to turn it into steak. Maybe if we all ate such a steak at the same time and 6 billion of us dies because we drew the short straw steaks that were doped with a poison…maybe that’d be a start, but the logistics of that are huge, not to mention the sales job preceding it.

    You can make a plastic piece that is the working part of an AR-15 rifle out of plastic input material and it will fire quite a few rounds before it becomes unworkable. This is of great interest to the “they’re gonna come and take all of our guns” people as well as libertarians who are more interested in the principle of not having the gov’t ban technology than they are in keeping supply of weapons. I understand both groups but am not a member of either. For what it’s worth, I think the more revolutionary aspect of such a printer is its ability to quietly & in private manufacture things that cancel out the noise made by guns. A disposable silencer with no discernible tool marks seems much more valuable than the weapon that it fits onto.

  • Energy => Food => Humans

    India imports close to 80% of its oil/gas. India imports 50% of its fertilizers and the other 50% are made using 80% of imported oil/gas and electricity.

    Which brings us to, electricity. Recently the amount of coal imports are on the rise too, given that 65% of electricity is coal Powered, India has substantial requirements for coal. Without electricity and diesel water pumps the breadbasket of India cannot pump enough water out of the ground to grow wheat and rice.

    The water problem has only grown worse, given that the rains are becoming inconsistent and the glaciers that feed the biggest of rivers are in serious decline.

    So, India needs Oil / Gas / Coal / Fertilizer to sustain its population. The population which happens to be approx 1.237 billion people. Which happens to be approx 17% of the worlds population.

    If the value of Indian Rupee falls further, which is only a matter of when rather than if, given all of India’s energy imports. I mean given all of India’s energy imports there is no way it can export more than import. So, the currency will deteriorate.

    Or if the middle east deteriorates, we don’t have to wait to see the Indian Rupee go down, India’s oil needs will not be met. The Rupee will go down and well… it is a death spiral from there.

    Either way, talk about limits to growth, we will soon find out…

    Energy => Food => Humans

    But, I was thinking, would that not free up a lot of oil / gas / coal / minerals for the remainder of human population? Also, if you think about it, if India destabilizes Pakistan & Bangladesh will also experience some population thinning one way or the other. So the total number of humans at stake would go up to 1.5 billion approx, that should put us up to 20% of the world.

    Unless the magical 3-D printers save us, EROEI be damned and I’ll also damn my vegetarianism while we are at it, as long as I get something to eat. Printing hope out of thin air…


    I am reaching a point where I will just be coming here to read your posts and those of @Denise.

    Also @puddles, although he / she was quite harsh on someone in the last thread, but what I like about his / her poetry is that puddles goes straight to the point and stays on it, I like that style too ;)

    To the fiddle :D

  • @michele

    One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

    ~ Joseph Stalin

  • In the previous thread, wildwoman says: Sorry, I don’t mean to attack here, but I’m getting a bit restless with all of the happy talk.

    Happy Talk

    Talk of things you’d like to do
    Won’t change the fact that we’re through;
    The way things now seem,
    It won’t help to dream:
    It’s too late for dreams to come true.


    @ KK: Aw, thanks! :)

    KK says: Printing hope out of thin air…

    Quantitative Easing

    Viewed from a doomer vicinity,
    We can print more of our divinity,
    ‘Cause, being succinct,
    We’ll all be extinct
    Before it reaches infinity.

  • @KK:

    India Pakistan declining food and energy nuclear weapons.

  • Jack Adam Weber,

    Several others have already responded but I have to chime in on your comment too.

    No matter what you “print” in 3-D, you must have feedstock. (See the first law of thermodynamics.) That feedstock has to come from somewhere. It’s not magic. Unless you’re out there digging up raw materials by hand and processing them using techniques that don’t involve modern methods, then you require the industrial economy to acquire them. When going from point A to point B, it takes more energy and complexity to sidetrack to point C first. So, why do it when you can go to point B directly? Why print food when you can grow it with less energy and complexity?

    I’m constantly amazed at how otherwise intelligent, thinking people leave out crucial details with respect to the topics discussed here. There are many voices out there warning of the various calamities headed our way, but so many of the so-called experts ignore what the other experts are saying and only consider their particular area of expertise as if the others don’t really matter. The problem with that way of thinking is that it leads to a false sense of security that if we take this action or that action that we can solve our way out of this mess. However, when you take all the challenges we’re facing and consider them as a whole, you wind up with NTE. And, apparently, that’s something that very few have the capacity to face.

  • I wonder, as a medical matter, whether I suffered some early brain trauma that makes me unable to fear (or even trust the validity of) NTE.

    @ TRDH

    “I’m constantly amazed at how otherwise intelligent, thinking people leave out crucial details with respect to the topics discussed here. There are many voices out there warning of the various calamities headed our way, but so many of the so-called experts ignore what the other experts are saying and only consider their particular area of expertise as if the others don’t really matter. The problem with that way of thinking is that it leads to a false sense of security that if we take this action or that action that we can solve our way out of this mess. However, when you take all the challenges we’re facing and consider them as a whole, you wind up with NTE. And, apparently, that’s something that very few have the capacity to face.”

    But does the fact that no one can think of the whole mean that we are incapable understanding the fix we are in in a way that could somewhat ameliorate it? A false sense of security on one hand, a false sense of doom on the other?

  • Hey Rob at the Library: I suggest that you get your facts straight before involving my name in something that does not concern me. If you had read my posts of late, which you obviously have not, than you would see that I do not communicate with Uvl. No longer shall I continue casting pearls before swine. If you choose to self-appoint yourself as arbitrator, first know what you are talking about.

  • So isn’t what’s needed to grow food seeds, growing medium. light, and modest amounts of clean-enough water? People somehow grew food before there was oil? Why is peak oil of existential importance here? We talk about IC causing NTE, and then we talk as if there were no possible alternative to IC!

    Windmills were once made without fossil fuels. That can be done again. It’s possible that geothermal or wave energy–also old as the hills–can apply in the future. Passive solar is also as old as the hills, and its proper development remains highly unrealized.

    @ ulvfugi

    Yes. I dislike Brzez’s vision intensely. Yet, I do see much of the (horrid) security state apparatus as having some utility. Any significant remediation of NTE contributors (e.g., nuclear plant meltdown) would seem to require a highly centralized and invincible power that could override other powerful forces that now are geared toward destruction. Although the money is on this power being evil in the extreme, it doesn’t HAVE to be so due to some immutable natural law. It would come about through complicated human choices.

    I tried to look at choice and NTE in the previous thread today (merely setting out preliminary grounds for discussion perhaps).

  • Foe Women (and Men. A must!


    American corp media says we have 1.75 billion years, not 17.5 years till extinction.

    Somebody’s calculations are way off.

  • No longer shall I continue casting pearls before swine.

    Matthew 7:6

    6 nolite dare sanctum canibus neque mittatis margaritas vestras ante porcos ne forte conculcent eas pedibus suis et conversi disrumpant vos.

    King James Version:
    6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

  • @ Artleads

    You don’t seem to understand how the billions in the cities are being fed, depends entirely upon oil. You think plants grow without fertilizer, just as Weber thinks meat can be printed ?

    You seem clueless as to the real nature of the problem, it’s the billions, and increasing, and the power structure, you seem completely detached from the reality of imperialism, and how the world works.
    They make a fascist dystopia to maintain the existing system, not to replace it with wooden windmills.

    Also the time element. The oceans are dying, the biosphere is collapsing, the feedbacks are irreversible. You don’t seem to have got a handle on what the fundamental reasons for expecting NTE are.

    @ Friedrich Kling

    …I do not communicate with Uvl.

    So now you sulk, like an adolescent ? Look, intelligent adults argue, discuss, if they feel strongly about something, get passionate, angry, sometimes insult one another. If you think UFOs matter so much, then you must try to explain why that is so, and fight your corner. If everyone thinks you are wrong, they’ll throw the fruit and eggs at you, and if you keep on insisting, they’ll throw the furniture at you, and if you keep on insisting, they’ll try and lock you in a cellar or threaten to burn you alive… How much does it matter, Mr Kling ?
    If it matters so much that you are willing to die, then we’ll maybe listen… eventually… probably after we’ve killed you and it’s too late.

    @ KK

    Stalin was a far more subtle, expressive and refined poet than puddles.

  • Ripley this is what the article you posted actually says “Earth could continue to host life for at least another 1.75 billion years, as long as nuclear holocaust, an errant asteroid or some other disaster doesn’t intervene, a new study calculates.”

    The operative words are “as long as”. The melt down of 427 nuclear power plants when the grid finally ends could be added to that list. The rise of temperatures to a wet bulb temp humans cannot survive at could be added to that list. That is an extension of the time left until sun death makes our planet uninhabitable and nothing more. Uninhabitable for humans will come before uninhabitable for all life.

    For various reasons the planet has extincted most life on the planet on a rather regular basis. The end Permian being the largest one and one in which methane may have been a major factor.
    Very worrying are the high methane readings close to Gakkel Ridge, the divergent fault line at the center of the Arctic Ocean, as earlier discussed in the post Methane Release caused by Earthquakes.

    Furthermore very worrying are the high methane readings in between Greenland and Novaya Zemlya that coincide with high sea surface temperatures in that area. As discussed in the earlier post Is the North Pole no ice-free?, there are hot spots in the Arctic Ocean where sea surface temperatures are well over 10°C (50°F), which could be caused by undersea volcanic activity; this is the more dangerous as the area has seen methane bubbling up from destabilized hydrates.

    Ripley are you just playing when you make such posts or do you really not understand the stuff you read? The words “as long as” don’t clue you into the fact that the author was reporting a changing timeline for 1 particular method that the world could become lifeless rather than a timeline for all the ways the earth could become lifeless. Are all asteroids of planet killing size going to say “nope can’t hit earth for 1.75 billion years”, are the idiots in charge of the nuclear weapons going to show remarkable restraint for over a billion years, is the methane frozen in the oceans going to refuse to melt no matter how warm the oceans become?

  • For all those who wish to see the propaganda full-screen on IC triumphalism, quoting statistics but not being critical at all of the cost to the living planet…..

    ‘Supersized Earth – A Place to Live’

    ‘Supersized Earth – The Way we Move’

    We get this drivel in a now coordinated roll-out of ‘distractatainment’, now Australia….eh eh Afraidia, has slipped into a mixture of the ‘Twilight Zone’ and ‘The Forbin Project’ but directed by Mel Brooks.
    I don’t know if you guys and gals from North America have been following the current affairs from down here, but we no longer have a Science Ministry, and no Climate Change bodies, of which there were 3, and no carbon tax, nor a carbon pricing body,nor a cap and trade scheme.
    It’s just ‘Game On’ time.
    A lot of carbon is at stake, so are the profits.

    What happens when a tumour refuses to stop growing, does it too fool the head to keep taking in the poison?
    Snake eyes here, T.A., has just payed back RM for all the good press to get elected.

    Can’t say where we go from here, but I’m sensing the life forms here will not be the beneficiaries.

    Wish us luck with the slide into Afradia’s version of Overt Totalitarianism. Nice knowing you all.
    I’m still walking the land, but I am waiting for a day soon where that is a crime too.

  • I got this information in an email. Not sure how to copy that here. Hope the links get to the conference, which I see as the most significant positive step for a long time. Lots of talks here. Don’t know if they touch on NTE, but contact should be made if at all possible, if anyone knows any of the organizers
    Breakthrough Communities will be posting comments and updates on our facebook page:


  • Artleads, please, is there no other place on the web where you could have a bit more fun and not deny the central premise of the blog in every single one of your posts? Do you not see the disrespect you show?

    The one place, the one spot where we few can talk about how we really think and feel is being co-opted by hopers and wishers. The whole world is your oyster and yet, you come HERE.

    I’ve tried to be patient and understanding and many of us have invested time and energy in trying to make you understand, but you just keep denying and hoping.

    Go away, please.

    I have to spend 99% of my time with people who don’t know and don’t care about NTE and it is exhausting. Now, I get to come to the ONE spot in the world where no one is pretending and you just continue to blithely hope for your fucking miracle.

    Go to church, man. Go anywhere else! But please, out of courtesy for the rest of us, if for no other reason, shutthefuckup!

    BtD, good one! Always so happy to be inspiration for you.

    Guy, saw a picture of you with a light saber and can’t cut and paste it here, but it was sooooo cool!

  • Ozman: I signed an on-line petition yesterday demanding that some big shot down there NOT dredge the Great Barrier Reef to make way for a coal shipping port. It was astounding to me that the fool would even suggest it, but I guess we’re in last-ditch effort mode now and TPTB are pulling out all the stops. Incredible, isn’t it?

    all: The current “most powerful storm in the world” is expected to dump about 20 inches of rain on Taiwan and then move to the China mainland tomorrow (after strengthening over the ocean in between!).

    Storms just keep ramping up all over the globe to previously “unimaginable” levels. The money and energy to continually rebuild is dwindling away as nature just does what it does with no effort whatsoever (as a matter of fact, BECAUSE we’re supplying it with the “ammunition” – ‘The fight to save our civilization from global warming and climate change is in high gear – even as 2.4 million pounds of toxic C02 continues to be pumped into our atmosphere every second.’ from article at seemorerocks). As these disasters mount up, season after season, we’ll most likely see the failure of both the state (including the federal government) and the insurance industry to keep up – or their collapse as they try (ie. bankruptcy).

    Colorado is just beginning to take stock of how bad it is (with fracking well contaminants and oil spewing out of flooding sites and spreading into rivers and onto farmland along with raw sewage, furniture and vehicles) while Mexico was just hammered recently by two or three huge tropical storms coming at them from different directions creating mudslides that buried mountain towns, and now the Philippines (last night) and China are coming up today and tomorrow. Just before all this a remote area of Russia was inundated right after massive Siberian forest fires.

    Then there are the disasters that the authorities EXPECT (like earthquakes along the San Andreas fault, for example):

    Oregonians warned to prepare for ‘big one’ – roads cut off for 5 years, no electricity for 3 months, no gas for 6 months

    September 22, 2013 – OREGON – Sitting on a major fault line, Oregon is “like an eight-and-a-half-month pregnancy, due any time now” for a major earthquake, a geologist with the Oregon Office of Emergency Management told an overflow crowd Friday in Medford. “We’re in the zone, and we’d darn well better get ourselves ready for it,” said Althea Rizzo, geology hazard coordinator for OEM. “A lot of you may have moved here from California to escape them, but the fact is, Oregon is earthquake country.” About half the hands went up when Rizzo asked how many had been through a California earthquake. Rizzo said there’s a 37 percent chance the Big One will happen in the next 50 years. A major earthquake would cripple transportation on Interstate 5 as bridges and overpasses collapse from two to four minutes of ground shaking, possible very severe, with stressful aftershocks for weeks. “It’s going to shake here,” she said. “Single-family homes will bounce off their foundations. Landslides will cause transportation between I-5 and (Highway) 101 on the coast to be cut off for three to five years.” A big quake will cause liquefaction, in which the ground, if saturated with water, will “turn to pudding,” causing hardware, such as sewer systems, septic lines and gas tanks, to rise up out of the earth. Lines from Washington state gasoline refineries cross 15 rivers, leaving them vulnerable to quake tremors, she says. Most of these were built in the mid-20th century, with no thought to making them quake-resistant, she says, adding that they would be offline for at least six months. Electrical power would be down from one to three months until transformers and the electrical grid get going again, she says.

    A region’s markets have food enough for only three days, so families should store at least three weeks of nonperishable food — tuna, beans, freeze-dried items — and other vital commodities, such as toilet paper. Rizzo advocates planning on the household, regional and statewide levels before the inevitable quake emanates from the “big, bad, ugly” Cascadia Subduction Zone, which runs 600 miles from about Eureka, Calif., to the north end of Vancouver Island. The North American tectonic plate, on which the Rogue Valley rests, is moving southwesterly a couple of inches a year, overriding oceanic plates and building up tension. When the tension is released, she said, it causes far-reaching land quakes and lifts an enormous amount of sea water, which will slam the Oregon Coast with tsunamis. Partial quakes happen on an average of every 240 years. The last one was in 1700, so it’s been 213 years. Quakes of the entire length of the zone come every 500 to 600 years and governments should expect those to be 9.0 or more on the Richter scale — tremendously devastating. They cannot be predicted, Rizzo said. Another blow to Oregon would come if vital utilities and transportation were cut off for so long that major businesses left the state and took jobs and money with them. A dozen years ago, Oregon authorized $2 billion in bonds to bolster infrastructure in schools, community colleges and emergency services, but the recession, she said, took that off-track. Rizzo urged several hundred local residents to spread the word to family and friends to take first-aid and Community Emergency Response Team training, store supplies and get to know your neighbors and people who have training and tools. Communities must assess risks to buildings, roads, power, water and sewer lines, she said, adding that people should learn to “drop, cover and hold” and practice getting to safe places in their homes. Wall art should be screwed down, big furniture, water heater and bookcases secured, and heavy items kept close to the floor, not up high where they could fall on people. “You need to practice this over and over because when it’s happening you’re not going to be able to think,” she said. –Mail Tribune

  • @Artleads: But does the fact that no one can think of the whole mean that we are incapable understanding the fix we are in in a way that could somewhat ameliorate it? A false sense of security on one hand, a false sense of doom on the other?

    First, I didn’t say that NO ONE could see the whole picture. There are quite a few such as Guy and many of the posters here.

    With respect to a plan to ameliorate the fix we’re in, I’m all ears/eyes. Waiting for your plans….

    Your plans?

    Artleads? Your plans?

    That’s what I thought. You’ve got bumpkis.

    I’ve always been an optimist – and in many ways I still am. But when you’re falling off a skyscraper all the optimism in the world isn’t going to change the reality of your situation. You’re falling. Gravity is in control. Soon you will splat.

    And that’s our current situation. Your hopium notwithstanding, there are no fixes to our current predicaments. If there were, we would have heard of them long before now. How do I know? Imagine for a moment the money you could make and the power you would wield if you could solve these problems. Trust me, if it was doable, there would be a sociopath who would gladly step up and fill the bill.

    Humans jumped off the skyscraper known as industrialization more than 150 years ago and we’re in free fall. All the optimism and planning and thinking in the world isn’t going to change that. The ground is getting closer and closer and splatting is in our very near future. It sucks but it’s reality.

  • Guy: Hope to see you at UIC this Wednesday. I’ll be the grey beard right up front looking mildly insane. Crap. That might not help any. Maybe I’ll wear a comical hat.

    The final revolution of humanity is to directly into the ABYSS… and refuse to act.

  • co-opted by hopers and wishers.

    Well, they may fancy that they can avert it just by converting doomsayers to their view. What better place to start than NBL! The Power of Positive Thinking – starting with a pow-wow on positively wishful thinking.

    just keep denying and hoping.

    Let the ones with a terminal condition (which is everyone, as Kathy Cassandra points out) have all the Denial™ and Hopium™ that they desire. Even the coal miners carried a tin of morphine. And no point trying to teach a bullfrog about Climate Change.

    I have to spend 99% of my time with people who don’t know and don’t care about NTE and it is exhausting.

    You don’t have to. Let them wallow in their cesspits. Likewise with Newage Sewage™, McZen™, etc.

    Storms just keep ramping up all over the globe to previously “unimaginable” levels.

    Climate change: “hundred year storms” every year, and “thousand year storms” every decade.

    And by the by, with the upgrade to IOS 7 Safari on the iPhone offers the option of private browsing, so the cookies can stay put.

  • @Artleads

    You wrote in response to TRDH:
    But does the fact that no one can think of the whole mean that we are incapable understanding the fix we are in in a way that could somewhat ameliorate it?

    If you re-read TRDH’s post, I think you will see that he is not saying that no one can think of the whole.

    What I get from his post is that people with expertise in one area are drawn into the trap of “solving” the part of our overall situation that corresponds to their area of expertise. Having offered a possibly workable “solution” to one aspect of the puzzle, they lead themselves to believe that if we just garden instead of farm, or just use reduced-carbon sources of power, or just somehow convince people in agrarian environments to reproduce at lower rates, etc., then our chances of survival would be vastly improved. Sure, any of those things will ameliorate the situation, but they don’t really fix, repair, or solve the overall situation.

    The most important thing I have come to understand from Guy’s analysis here is that we have a predicament rather than a problem, meaning that there probably is not a solution to the situation.

    My bet is that in terms of species survival, Rob’s “solution” is as good a bet as we have for now.
    Only problem is that removing 90% of extant humans entails either a pandemic that would not insure the survival of people with the skills needed to keep the grids up and running until the survivors can shut down Kathy C.’s 400+ nuke facilities, or it would mean wholesale but organized slaughter at the hands of mercenaries working for TPTB.
    If those are the high-probability scenarios, then I’m buying a small tank of helium while supplies last.

  • When looking for communities that abide, be careful. Look again.

  • Artleads, you may have responded to my earlier post already but, if so, I can’t read it. I thought the “private browsing” option in Safari would fix the problem, but apparently not. Anyway, I reread my last post and it sounded rather snarky. My apologies for that. I’m not meaning to be snarky, just trying to make a point.

    And my point is that there are lots of good suggestions for solutions out there. And any number will accomplish certain things to ease the problem it addresses. But, no matter how good an idea is, if it’s not workable, then it doesn’t matter. It may be feasible technically, but if it can’t be implemented practically, then it’s pointless. That includes willingness of the masses. If the masses won’t embrace an idea, then it won’t be implemented and, thus, it’s not really a solution. And, as I mentioned earlier, we have many multiple problems. Unfortunately, fixing one problem exacerbates another.

    The fact is that with our exploding population, we are destroying the planet. The only solution to that aspect of our problems is to drastically curtail population to less than 500,000,000 immediately. That means that 19 people out of 20 have to die. Soon. Within a few years. Don’t really see the masses lining up to go along with that one.

    Then, once you’ve reduced down to half a billion, everything falls apart. Not just the global economy, but all the poisons we’ve created to power our economy. Most notably, nuclear power plants; but there are lots of other nasties out there that require the industrial economy to keep them safe and contained. And, as has been pointed out here over and over, CO2 that’s in the atmosphere now isn’t going away when we stop IC – it’s there for 1,000 years. So there’s little chance that half billion would be able to grow sufficient food to support themselves, even if they knew how.

    If you really want to find out just how feasible it is for the people of the world to return to a simple agrarian lifestyle or the life of a hunter-gather, go try it for a while. I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority of those who post here can’t do it – myself included – and we’re the ones who “get” what’s coming.

    In short, Artleads, practice what you preach. If you’re so convinced of the feasibility of a fix, then go do it. In five years, assuming the internet is still working – a BIG assumption – then let us know how you’re doing.

  • Cowgirl Apocalypse Haiku #49

    Moonlight saturates
    nighttime haze; city lights make
    pinpricks in the dark.

  • I’d like to recommend “The World Without Us” by Alan Weisman to the group.

    I’ve got the audiobook playing in the car, and it’s an inspiring collection of views on humanity’s arrival on the planet, destruction it has caused, and how things might recover in its absence. Climate chaos is considered, but not predicted; yet, previous extinctions are included. Paleobiology, baby!

    I’m only up the Chapter 5, but his interviews with scientists working entire careers in these fields is pure candy for us science junkies.

    I’m becoming an audiobook fan, great while doing other necessary tasks around the place (booming through the guitar amp). I’d really appreciate if someone — anyone — would check out this title. Get it from a library, listen, and then let the group know if you think it would be a good summary of much of our situation, worth others spending some hours with. TIA.


    Just watched “World War Z” (Brad Pitt) and it seems to be about viral spread, more than about zombies. Knowing nothing of zombie movies, that would be my take.

    I know we’ve covered the topic somewhat — there’s not much you can say, how to predict the unpredictable, except to say “it might be out there, somewhere, someday”, but the presented virology science in the movie is interesting, and an hour and a half of thinking in those scenarios might give some perspectives here.

    Also, I haven’t seen anyone mention the game for Android devices “Plague Inc.” (maybe it’s on PCs too? You can watch some YouTube videos about it) It’s apparently been downloaded multiple millions of times, and in it, YOU play the Plague, trying strategically to kill off entire countries of humans. Did ya get ’em all? You WIN!

    Just more interesting perspectives. (Of course, for any real Plague to help, it would have to focus on the richer, carbon-burning peoples, and not just kill off a few billion of the hungry and already-weakened ones.)

    Oh, and Kathy — bet you’ve got your potassium iodide supply in already? Part of my denial, I’ve been to the order site a half dozen times, never pulled the trigger. I’ll let you know after I do it. THANKS for your persistence!!!

  • wildwoman – aw, come on! you rightly told me to piss off for harshing on dear Gail, and now you turn around and tell Artleads to take a flying leap because he is just slightly promoting the idea that someone, or maybe many young, smart, deeply alive and passionate and loving someones out there, may wish to dance a bit longer, or even dance at our collective commiseration-funeral-empathy-aburdity-of-authenticity-party thing.

    yes, The Disaster really is as Bad as Bad, worse than that bad, and then worse still.

    but I am not too worried or stressed or exhausted about the delusional masses not getting it – because the level of new hell that is coming their way, to wash down the hillsides and canyons in waves of water that will soon make Boulder seem like the good ol’ days – burning out the wet bulbs faster than Oasis could burn out all the amps at the last great rock concert of the world powered by the melt-down of 467 nukes – that level of hell will end any delusion, permanently, and soon.

    Artleads has the necessary stomach to digest this, and still think through possible actions and attitudes that could at least change outcomes from the fascist-torturous-raping-and-pillaging side of the spectrum, to maybe something more humane and closer to hospice.

    I don’t want to yell at that kind of compassionate energy and tell it to go away, and I am sorry I yelled at Gail, because she represents and practices that kind of compassion, and she was also calling out BS, even though she messed up her message with another kind of BS. no loss, it was there just the same.

    wherever and whatever it is – in you, Gail, Artleads, ulvfugl, Guy or anyone else who is willing to take stock and take a deep breath, and try to understand and communicate, I hope I am near people like this as the end unfolds. the other outcome is likely, but I think Artleads is just saying: we still have choices. we will have choices right up to the bitter end.

    I think this blog is becoming a kind of training ground to develop skills where the ability to make certain choices is more and more something we can see and practice. we will need much *much* more practice like this, in all kinds of ways, as NTE unfolds.

    i *know* there are young, brilliant, compassionate and deeply alive souls out there who want the chance the make their own choices, and dance their own dances. I am going to do my best to promote, everywhere, both the ability to face the worst without paralyzing fear, and embrace, at least in the very next moment, the knowledge that anyone and everyone has the power to make a powerful choice, in any action, attitude, invisible energy, or even just a sideways glance at a passing stranger. the paradox – this makes no difference, and it does.

    is that hopium? is not wanting to look in anger at a total stranger because I myself am bitter with loss, strangled by cruelty, confused by the pointless mean stupidity of it all, and helpless, endlessly helpless, to change even one jot of the ways of nature or humanity – is that ever justification for not turning to other forces inside myself, whether they come purely from chemical reactions, or some unknown insanity that also creates love in the midst of nonsense?

    well, if that IS what hopium IS, color me a hopium addict. I like feeling those indescribable and undeniable feelings, those DAMN things that are there, even in the face of utter devastation. why are these things there to torture us so? maybe that is what is really driving you crazy, not Artleads. it drives me crazy ALL the time, because it makes absolutely no sense, and it has crazy power. damn chemical brain shit, what a fucking curse it is to be ALIVE. escaping that curse is enough to drive anyone right round the bend.

  • Henry, the world without us is a helpful read. You might want to also read One Second After – a novel about what happens when an EMP attack hits the US. Its not great fiction, but OK. But he addresses most of the things that would no longer be available with grid down – one very big exception is that he doesn’t have the nuclear plants melt down. But he covers people no longer getting meds, cars no longer working (unless old enough to not have modern electronics), food running out etc. This town is able to come together and work together to solve many problems, but outsiders start wars against them. He covers the problem of whether to feed the pets or eat them ****spoiler alert**** in the end they eat the beloved family pet. Except for the glaring ommission of nuclear melt downs, he covers all the things we talked about for years on peak oil blogs

    No I don’t have potassium iodide – we are old enough to not care. Suggested to my son he get some for the grandkids as they are most vulnerable to thyroid cancer. Don’t know if he did or not. I got no reply…..

    2 months or less until they start pulling the fuel rods out of SP4 – Given Tepco’s record I think we can expect it won’t go well, and there is some potential for it to go very badly indeed.

  • Smash Mouth – Walking on the Sun

    It ain’t no joke, I’d like to buy the world a toke
And teach the world to sing in perfect harmony
And teach the world to snuff the fires and the liars

    Hey, I know it’s just a song but it’s spice for the recipe

    This is a love attack, I know, it went out but it’s back
It’s just like any fad, it retracts before impact

    And just like fashion, it’s a passion for the with it and hip
If you got the goods, they’ll come and buy it just to stay in the clique

    So don’t delay, act now, supplies are running out

    Allow if you’re still alive, six to eight years to arrive

    And if you follow, there may be a tomorrow

    But if the offer is shun, you might as well be walkin’ on the sun

    Twenty-five years ago, they spoke out and they broke out

    Of recession and oppression and together they toked
And they folked out with guitars around a bonfire

    Just singin’ and clappin’, man, what the hell happened there?

    Some were spellbound, some were hell bound

    Some they fell down and some got back up

    And fought back against the melt-down

    And their kids were hippie chicks or hypocrites

    Because fashion is smashin’ the true meaning of it

    So don’t delay, act now, supplies are running out
Allow if you’re still alive, six to eight years to arrive

    And if you follow, there may be a tomorrow

    But if the offer is shun, you might as well be walkin’ on the sun

    And it ain’t no joke when our mama’s handkerchief is soaked

    With her tears because her baby’s life has been revoked

    The bond is broke up, so choke up and focus on the close up
Mr. Wizard can’t perform no God-like hocus-pocus

    So don’t sit back, kick back and watch the world get bushwhacked

    News at ten, your neighborhood is under attack

    Put away the crack before the crack puts you away

    You need to be there when your baby’s old enough to relate

    So don’t delay, act now, supplies are running out

    Allow, if you’re still alive, six to eight years to arrive

    And if you follow, there may be a tomorrow
But if the offer is shun, you might as well be walkin’ on the sun

    You might as well be walkin’ on the sun
You might as well be walkin’ on the sun

    You might as well be walkin’ on the sun

    You might as well be walkin’ on the sun

  • Gail – “What choices?”

    the choice to live or die, and everything, on every scale, that could possibly imply, in every included shade of meaning.

    you haven’t yet made the choice to become a murderous maniac slaying the innocent and the unarmed? you make that choice every moment – you can go in any direction you please. total freedom. you may decide at some point that the death you chronicle should be avenged, and go on a wild rampage, but I somehow doubt it. but it IS possible. when the shit really comes down, “the law” is gone, and we only have the law of the jungle, whoever is around will have freedom indeed to make all kinds of choices.

    you have kids, Gail, yes? they will be making choices just like everyone around them will be, and it may very well be law of the jungle for decades in their lifetimes. do you want to encourage the belief that choices don’t matter? they will matter immensely.

  • It seems that the practices causing devastation of the oceans is having an unexpected impact on climate disruption.Maybe another one to add to the list of positive feedbacks.I don’t recall this being posted here,apologies if I am repeating information.There is a review by Tim Flannery of the book ‘Stung,on jellyfish blooms and the future of the oceans’,at the NY review of books. The review is worth reading .The section on climate impacts states’remarkably,jellyfish may have the capacity to accelerate climate change.This can happen in two ways.Jellyfish release carbon rich feces a and mucus that bacteria prefer to use for respiration.As Gershwin puts it,’jellyfish blooms turn these bacteria into carbon dioxide factories.’But jellyfish also consume vast numbers of copepods and other plankton..These creatures migrate vertically through the water column,takingin carbon rich food at the water surface and releasing it as fecal pellets,which fall to the sea floor and are buried.The plankton are thus a major means of taking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and oceans.If their loss occurs on a large enough scale,it will hasten climate. change.’

  • Do I want “…to encourage the belief that choices don’t matter?”

    That is an irrelevant question. It isn’t whether choices matter, or not – once the shit hits the fan, CHOICES DON’T EXIST. For some unlucky people, that has already occurred, and for the rest, it is going to very soon – there will be no more choices to make. The freedom to make choices (to the extent it ever existed) will be taken away from us.

    NTE is the ultimate loss of free will, including the illusion of free will. Isn’t NTE what this site is about?

    Meanwhile, copied below is the proposition I sent to 2.0 after pondering the first exhange of messages at the top (thoughts welcome!):

    Paul sez:

    We might as well accept the fact that others will choose to do different things than we do, for different reasons, rather than getting all bent out of shape about it.  It’s only the end of our world after all, not some great cosmic crisis.”

    Paul, I know it suits your dopamine-generators to be intentionally provocative. 
    But the philosophical position you espouse here is wildly fucked up; and having read a lot of stuff you wrote in the past, I know that on some level you deeply agree it’s wildly fucked up.  We discuss the “myth of progress” as a failed-narrative shibboleth which imputes a direction to cultural and biological evolution, but it’s just as invalid on an individual level. That is, your current coping mechanisms are not necessarily as logical or moral as values you held in your past states of stress, even if you’re happier now.  

    Do you deserve to rest and lapse into a vegetative state after many years of caring so strongly? Of course you do. You can find Jesus or indulge in any of the other boilerplate dissonance-quashing belief systems out there, or you can order a la carte and construct a custom one if it suits your idiom better. 

    No harm, no foul. However, evangelizing such a position is irresponsible, and you should dig down into your very functional brain and own that realization. You’re too smart to be 100% sure you’re right, and if you’re not right there’s a finite chance that you are making the problem worse.  

    Society hasn’t yet adopted the “its too late” belief en masse, but it is toxic, virulent, and waiting. It has high adaptive value in the short-term politically, and is candy to the human mind. 

    This isn’t the start of a debate, you know the old aphorism about pig rasslin’.  And there’s little harm – hopefully – in what you post here. But I find myself hoping that those who eventually find solace by embracing the bliss of cabbage-ness will stick a sock in it and vegetate privately rather than leaving contagious meme-DNA scattered where others might be infected.

    Just a sunday-morning two cents’ worth from another tired old campaigner. 

    So I wrote back:

    “Society hasn’t yet adopted the “its too late” belief en masse”

    I disagree.  I think society has de facto adopted the “its too late” belief en masse, because society is doing exactly nothing to curb pollution, population, or climate change.  Zip, Nada, in fact, the opposite.  Everything is getting worse.

    Most of the COD’s (Complacent, Oblivious and in Denial) may have only implicitly adopted the “it’s too late” attitude – however I actually know a LOT of people, when queried specifically (what will you do to reduce your lifestyle for future generations), say they will do nothing because they have explicitly done adopted the “it’s too late…because, China!” stance.  NOW, very few of them realize how soon the Shit is going to Hit the Fan, perhaps if they did they would make some attempts to, say, conserve fuel instead of frivolously squandering it.  But I doubt even then.

    In any event, the problem is too many people making too much pollution and too many babies using too many resources.

    Either we do something about that or we will all starve as the ecosystem collapses.

    So, I was thinking about it today and I would like to propose as a first step that everybody agree to commit suicide on their 40th birthday (or now, if they are already over 40).  Why should the children starve?

    The world will get along much better without us, we’ve had our chance, and it’s time to make way for the others to try and clean up the mess we left them.

    I think it’s a plan.  It could be made a little more equitable – like, tie the age of suicide to a range of economic status (the best measure of environmental impact) so poorer people live to 42 and the richest people go at 38.

    If we can get enough people together to make a stand I am completely willing to be the first to go.

  • Kathy Cassandra Says: Ripley are you just playing when you make such posts or do you really not understand the stuff you read?

    The whole point of the post was to show how the very powerful people who own our entire media complex do play with words. I posted it to show the enormous array of corp media forces that are determined to anesthetize people into thinking that there is no problem.
    If you were the editor of a major media source with millions of readers and you wanted them to be concerned with what is killing life; things like climate change, methane release, an ice free arctic, Fukushima; would you publish an article about an obscure study with such a reassuring headline?

    “Life on Earth has another good 1.75 billion years to go, study says”

    Unlike you and I, most Americans don’t bother reading the details, they just read the headline. And BTW, the article didn’t say anything about the real threats that you mentioned that are killing life on this planet. I should have mentioned that I pulled the article off a list of headlines from yesterday’s Drudge Report, it was the right at the top of the his list (it’s not there today). Drudge is a major GW denier, when the N Hem is burning up in record heat, he likes to post articles on snowfall in remote parts of Argentina.

    Meanwhile, there was a 5.3M earthquake at Fuku a couple of days ago – no damage reported. But now might be a good time to invest in lead lined suits for your children or grandchildren. Their cells are dividing much faster than adults and so they are much more vulnerable to the nuclear apocalypse that is about to occur after the Japanese fiddle with those fuel rods. When the worst happens, I promise to post the reassuring headline from Drudge siting some obscure study proving that radiation is good for your children. It’s what his 11 million monthly readers will want to be told.

  • AND by the way, I personally think the hysteria about Fukushima, although well-warranted for people in that vicinity or a direct path of a radioactive plume, the global threat is negligible…at least, compared to other dangers which are far worse (like, um, overpopulation).

    I guess, it makes everyone feel happier to deflect the notion that we have collectively, as a species, inevitably wrecked our lives by our universal, dominant urge to grow – because it’s so much more comfortable to blame Tepco, or Exxon, or anyone other than everyone, all of us, who consume and consume trees and oil and everything else Earth has to offer.

    Repeating junk philosophy about how we could have maybe, if only, we were monkeys instead us, we could have averted this outcome, are getting boring.

  • sorry for over-posting, I have no free will, so I can’t help it. anyone is of course free to shoot me and rape my mother because they have no free will either, and they certainly couldn’t help it. why even bother thinking any of this NTE stuff is a bad thing or even a painful thing?

    why are we are discussing this at all, and not simply celebrating the fact that we are finally at the end stage of the first wrong turn of mechanically evolving evolutionary processes? party down! It’s finally over!

    are we there yet?

    but really, this video can’t be missed. this and the story behind it are the real reason for my over-post. :) fun stuff, full of wacky end time memes and dancing in the deserts and on the beach of doom.

    Gail – “That is an irrelevant question. It isn’t whether choices matter, or not – once the shit hits the fan, CHOICES DON’T EXIST. For some unlucky people, that has already occurred, and for the rest, it is going to very soon – there will be no more choices to make. The freedom to make choices (to the extent it ever existed) will be taken away from us.

    NTE is the ultimate loss of free will, including the illusion of free will. Isn’t NTE what this site is about?”

    I don’t get it, are you saying we have free will or not? if once the shit hits the fan, and choices don’t exist, then they existed up to that point? or not? I’m with Grant. MORE CLARITY PLEASE.

    saying NTE is the end of choices makes tons of sense, but you are dodging the question of just exactly what choices are being ended, and when. the choice of 30 different brands of toothpaste (god that annoys me) is going to be over, but i am then going to have the choice of whether or not to eat my neighbor for breakfast, and then whether or not to steal his dental floss to clean my teeth.

    and really, as to the question of free will, brain chemistry, or ghosts, the magical thing is knowing it actually makes no difference whatsoever, and being totally happy either way.

    is that a dodge? not really. it. does. not. make. any. difference. if something compels me not to kill, and I listen to that compulsion and let it force my actions, I am acting, whether it is just total nature that is acting, or spiritual impulse. i honestly have no idea how i can separate these things. and if I think my actions are going to have any longer term impact on whatever consciousness *is* in the universe, it still makes no difference! i am just nature acting. free will? where? it. makes. no. difference.

    peace out!

  • Gail Says: Do I want “…to encourage the belief that choices don’t matter?”
    That is an irrelevant question. It isn’t whether choices matter, or not – once the shit hits the fan, CHOICES DON’T EXIST.

    I think a better way to put it is: SOLUTIONS DON’T EXIST. TPTB will continue to make choices to try to extend their hegemony for as long as they can. Whether or not they succeed is anyone guess. But you can be sure they will never give up making choices. They will make choices that will mean that a lot of us will be dying in the act of helping them to live. Which if you are at all aware is exactly the way it is now!

    “Society hasn’t yet adopted the “its too late” belief en masse”

    That’s because the NTE Weather Channel is still a screen full of static. While I admit that disaster porn is addictive, I believe we must be careful not to exaggerate every event and become the merely the opposite of the denialist fools. All we have so far are some trends that admittedly look worrisome, but are no threat to end IC at this point. It will take some kind of event, a total collapse of continental proportions to to truly convince the world that we are in deep trouble.

    NTE is a science. It will take some very specific and unprecedented things to make it occur. We need to be very specific about what those events will be. We can’t be running around like fools calling every cat 2 hurricane an extinction level event. And we can’t just keep saying, “Oh look, there’s a dead tree.”

    Gail Says: AND by the way, I personally think the hysteria about Fukushima, although well-warranted for people in that vicinity or a direct path of a radioactive plume, the global threat is negligible…

    Very good Gail, that’s classic PTB minimization, and just what I would expect from you. But you’re right if you mean that even at it’s worst Fuku would not mean NTE or even the end of IC. A “permanent” radioactive plume exponentially worse than Chernobyl would only cause a large dead zone in NE Asia and increase global cancer rates enormously. The significance of the fact that it all happened for no other reason than to make a couple of corporations rich, I’ll leave for others to decide.

  • Are you a fucking moron Ripley? It’s NOT, oh, look, there’s A dead tree. It’s the TREND. It’s not a single dead bee, either. It’s the TREND of bee colony collapse. (Oh, I suppose I could add in fish and birds and badgers and bats and tigers).

    I can’t resist repeating, since I’m already violating the sanctity of the two-post rule, which I deeply respect:

    are you a fucking moron?

  • A Department of Justice memo instructs local police, under a program named “communities against terrorism,” to consider anyone who harbors “conspiracy theories” about 9/11 to be a potential terrorist.

    The memo thus adds 9/11-official-story skeptics to a growing list of targets described by federal law enforcement to be security threats, such as those who express ”libertarian philosophies,” “Second Amendment-oriented views,” interest in “self-sufficiency,” “fears of Big Brother or big government,” and “Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties.”

    A newly released national poll shows that 48 percent of Americans either have some doubts about the official account of 9/11, or do not believe it at all.

  • Zbigniew Brzezinski addressing the League for Evil 2010

  • to change even one jot of the ways of nature or humanity – is that ever justification for not turning to other forces inside myself, whether they come purely from chemical reactions

    One does not change the world of space-time-causation. It continues on its own merry way. The only change is in one’s realisation. The chemical reactions continue till they don’t.

    I like feeling those indescribable and undeniable feelings

    There is a difference between “awareness-of” and “awareness” without the “-of”: consciousness. The “-of” can represent many things, from a stick or a stone to “indescribable and undeniable feelings”.

    why are these things there to torture us so?

    The only thing really there is the “awareness” in the “awareness-of”. Attempting to grasp it intellectually leads to infinite regression: “awareness-of” the “awareness-of” the “awareness-of” the …… etc. one cannot know it, one can only BE it – in both senses: to have no alternate method, and to have no alternate existence – one cannot but BE it.

    But it must be emphasised that there are no shortcuts to it. Each person’s journey must traverse all the bases, and how far apart they are and how many of them there are depends on the individual. But only upon reaching home plate again does one realise that one and all were always at home plate, and in this surreal (h/t tvt) game, never left it.

    “What choices?”

    Everything, for “awareness” without the “-of”.

    you have kids, … yes?

    If you take the trouble to read that blog, you will know that one of the daughters is a neurosurgeon in residency.

    Before The Deluge
    Jackson Browne

    Some of them were dreamers
    And some of them were fools
    Who were making plans and thinking of the future
    With the energy of the innocent
    They were gathering the tools
    They would need to make their journey back to nature
    While the sand slipped through the opening
    And their hands reached for the golden ring
    With their hearts they turned to each other’s heart for refuge
    In the troubled years that came before the deluge

    Some of them knew pleasure
    And some of them knew pain
    And for some of them it was only the moment that mattered
    And on the brave and crazy wings of youth
    They went flying around in the rain
    And their feathers, once so fine, grew torn and tattered
    And in the end they traded their tired wings
    For the resignation that living brings
    And exchanged love’s bright and fragile glow
    For the glitter and the rouge
    And in the moment they were swept before the deluge

    Now let the music keep our spirits high
    And let the buildings keep our children dry
    Let creation reveal it’s secrets by and by
    By and by–
    When the light that’s lost within us reaches the sky

    Some of them were angry
    At the way the earth was abused
    By the men who learned how to forge her beauty into power
    And they struggled to protect her from them
    Only to be confused
    By the magnitude of her fury in the final hour
    And when the sand was gone and the time arrived
    In the naked dawn only a few survived
    And in attempts to understand a thing so simple and so huge
    Believed that they were meant to live after the deluge

    Now let the music keep our spirits high
    And let the buildings keep our children dry
    Let creation reveal it’s secrets by and by
    By and by–
    When the light that’s lost within us reaches the sky

  • I was very nearly no longer here to communicate with all of you anymore. I don’t know if I’m the first one in this forum to experience this sort of thing in our so called ‘civilized’ society, but… two days ago someone pulled out and pointed a gun at me and the person I was with. In a strip mall, right outside a RadioShack. Both of us look like old, long haired, homeless guys. Later that evening there was a local news story about two long haired homeless guys getting shot dead. No, it wasn’t us. Not this time. Maybe my accepting smile put him off? The killer apparently began his mad episode with us, then later went on to actually carry out his freakish fantasy. I don’t know if this sort of thing is an increasing trend. It seems the tension is building everywhere as ‘austerity’ programs that drain life support from the poor to temporarily maintain the rich, tighten their hold. All I know is, this time it was personal. The stench of a hungry beast’s hot breath lingers in my mind. Collapsing into extinction is rough stuff. It isn’t only carbon and methane, its also gunpowder and lead, and sticks and stones and fists and anger. Some are probably thinking… oh well, two down, 7 billion minus 2 to go, and counting.

    So, the obvious questions: Do I still believe in cooperation and mutual aid? More than ever. Do I still think a vegan lifestyle would help? Well, I’d be willing to bet my last 2 dollar bill that the killer swallowed plenty of wheezeburgers, and drank many gallons of high fructose corn syrup sweetened artificially flavored and colored soft drinks, and a whole lot of other junk ‘foods’. Do I think TPTB are responsible? No, I think they are totally irresponsible. How much do bullet proof vests cost? More than people like me can afford, and anyway, he was aiming at my face.

    Newtown dead children… forgotten. More guns now than ever before. Google coughed up: Images for Newtown dead children

  • Yes, wind mills/turbines and passive solar preceded the industrial revolution. But they did not have to provide the energy requirements of present day society. And today’s technology for wind/solar energy requires specialized raw materials. Something that hopium addicts just cannot get.

    A Runaway Greenhouse Event, John Davies, 9/20/13. Good, though it degenerates to geo-engineering promotion and naivete about international power relations and the ability of capitalism to do negative growth (it cannot even do slow growth) at the end.

  • @logspirit, that must have been terrifying. I’m glad you are still with us. I think a lot of ” invisible” deaths have been happening in the wings like this, the way Orlov has indicated, and due to the knd of outages brought on by the sickly trees Gail has been chronicling. I wrote this and set itaside several days ago:

    .Writing on the heels of a thunderstorm and power outage of the kind Gail has documented…The trees here look sicker by the week which is why it is hard to contemplate Nature in a soul-healing fashion as recommended by a couple of folks recently in the comments.

    The loss of electricity normally might be just a hiccup, but my mom uses an oxygen concentrator while living with/dying of pulmonary fibrosis. My husband has severe sleep apnea and uses a Bi-pap machine. A call to the power company (I won’t give up my copper land line until they stop providing them) said 24 hours or more ’til fixed. 20,000 w/o power to-night.[it turned out to be many mo

    We have backup oxygen tanks, a few small ones which last maybe 1.5-2 hours apiece and a large one the capacity of which, in terms of duration, I’m embarrassed to say I have forgotten in the year’s time since we were supplied them. So the nervous calculation: should I hook up the big tank, not knowing whether it will last until morning, yet also knowing that my mom sleeps with her mouth open anyway, not benefitting much from the nasal cannula? Or should I save it for the next day so that she can have it while awake? She’s panting hard  from having been up to the bathroom, so I give her a dose of liquid morphine and tell her that I’m going to hook up a small tank at least until she gets her breathing stabilized and to get her off to sleep. She starts screaming that she doesn’t need it! (She has always refused to use a tank to leave the house, but accepts the home concentrator and, despite her lung condition, she can squawk extremely loudly.) After three tries at convincing her, I give up and DH and I attempt to sleep in the living room outside her door in case she has trouble during the night or needs to get up and pee, because even having a flashlight she might stumble and fall. My husband opts for the armchair as he’ll stop breathing during the night lying down. With me bald as Kojak and scheduled for my last chemo round on Monday, we’re a sorry group indeed. Profoundly unsustainable. 

    I can’t get to sleep easily on the sofa, terrified of “what it will look like” if mater croaks overnight while there are these perfectly-good tanks of O2 lying about the house unused!!!

    Anyway, I just thought I’d share this collapse frisson… Really amplified my existing awareness of how thin the supply-line thread can be, upon which life hangs. As you can see the power was restored within a few hours, and relievedly I won’t be answering difficult questions from the authorities in the morning and can sleep with a “clear” conscience, at least in that limited regard.

    It’s easy for me to say I would rather face death than be hooked up to a breathing machine 24/7, but that’s not a choice I can make for family members. I’ve drawn the line at getting a generator, though, since they seem to use an inordinate amount of gasoline– more than one could reasonably keep on hand–for more than a few hours’ use. A few hours isn’t a problem; a few days is. Generators seem to be a popular item  in these parts nonetheless. 

  • Gail Says: Are you a fucking moron Ripley? It’s NOT, oh, look, there’s A dead tree. It’s the TREND. It’s not a single dead bee, either. It’s the TREND of bee colony collapse. (Oh, I suppose I could add in fish and birds and badgers and bats and tigers). I can’t resist repeating: are you a fucking moron?

    I’ll leave it up to the blog. Doesn’t anyone think it’s worthwhile responding to such a person?

  • @BenjaminTheDonkey

    Wow… Yeaaah… a limerick for mi!

    Quantitative Easing

    Viewed from a doomer vicinity,
    We can print more of our divinity,
    ‘Cause, being succinct,
    We’ll all be extinct
    Before it reaches infinity.

    Thankyou :)

    Sending you and @Denise an e-Hug and wish that when death comes for you and she will, that you go in peace knowing that you brought a little light in an otherwise dark time and place :)

    @The REAL Dr. House

    India Pakistan declining food and energy nuclear weapons.

    That was one of the things I was alluding to when I said “Also, if you think about it, if India destabilizes Pakistan & Bangladesh will also experience some population thinning one way or the other.” Actually, things might even effect China another big population center, don’t feel like doing the math :|


    Stalin was a far more subtle, expressive and refined poet than puddles.

    True, but that’s the uniqueness of @puddle’s style of expression :P

    Smile and let it go my friend :)


    Lovely. I live on a mountain, at night, the city nearby is like a pyramid of dots of light.

    It just occurred to mi, (I know how odd that sounds given we all talk about, all of us being on the this rock zipping through space and everything affecting everyone and all that) we all stare at the same moon each night!

    But, we all live in our own universes, divided we fall by our imagined boundaries, our little empires of perceived fluff. Sigh… What a way to go…

    It could be so much better if everyone just kind of accepted it and decided to face it with more civility / resolve / strength of character. Yeah, I know, we wouldn’t be here if we had that capability as a species.

    And hence we must bear with all the name calling, quibbling over finer details and other general unpleasantness. But I cant help but wish, that people let go / accept so that we can all go out with some kind of dignity.

    The last bit was more of thinking out aloud that anything else. Peace to all :)

    To the fiddle :D

  • One of the rare occasions when Nature Bats FIRST:

    “Vengeance is mine,” saith the Lord.

  • For KK

    This is how gentle wise people behave, better than fighting and killing each other, took thousands of years to learn.. Moon at the end.

  • This is not too good to be true. It costs nothing to visit The Rainforest Site and click to save the rainforests. I know this is for real because I served on the board of a recipient organization. Visitor clicks have saved in perpetuity 10,231 acres.

    The Rainforest Site:

  • Gail points out the dead trees are more than a tree here and there but rather trees dying everywhere from ozone pollution. Gail notes that bees are not dying a few here and there, but colonies of bees are dying enmasse.

    Since trees help regulate weather, absorb carbon among other benefits (like providing wood and paper) the way to respond to this comment is – tell me more Gail

    Since bees are important for pollinating our monoculture crops and thus keeping food on plates, the way to respond is to say tell me more Gail

    Or you could respond by saying thanks, I looked that up and you are right.
    As we’ve written before, the mysterious mass die-off of honey bees that pollinate $30 billion worth of crops in the US has so decimated America’s apis mellifera population that one bad winter could leave fields fallow. Now, a new study has pinpointed some of the probable causes of bee deaths and the rather scary results show that averting beemageddon will be much more difficult than previously thought.

    As for free will, well you can will grass to feed your body. You can will yourself to eat it, but as people in Ireland found, when that is the only food around, you can’t will it to keep you from starving. Ships left Ireland loaded with food while the Irish lived on grass from the fields. The Irish potato famine wiped out whole families and brought disease to villages and cities. But mostly folks didn’t exercise free will, they ate grass because the programs in the brain make you want to put anything in your mouth to calm the pains the programs in your brain produce when you are starving. You will eat cockroaches, you will eat mud cakes, you will swallow stones to calm that pain and craving. A precious few have willing starved themselves when they didn’t have to. Anorexics of course have a false program running that overpowers the program to eat. Some however starve themselves for a cause. Is that free will, or are they like the anorexic running a program that says if I have no other way to fight – I must do this – what drove Bobby Sands to starve himself for the Irish cause. Perhaps all those who had starved in the past because of the British so filled his mind that not filling his stomach was easy?

    Whatever, all us old folks can test the proposition – when collapse brings famine, we can choose not to eat for the sake of those younger. If you think we have free will, if you believe in cooperation, use free will and cooperation to give up early so the young can live longer. Since so many must die, lets call the old anyone past 40. Just to be sure it is free will, how bout we stop eating instead of a quick exit, then we can exercise that free will for say 30 days and every hunger pain will be a testament to the freedom of our action. What a way to go, free will over desperate hunger for 30 days. Bobby Sands could do it. If it was free will and he could do it, anyone can.

  • For anyone wishing to read this insightful article from Here it is.

  • Right on Gail and add to the list of trends White Nose Syndrome (for a variety of reasons including pollution and habitat loss bat immune systems are crashing and the result is millions of dead and dying bats…….started in the NE and has now spread to the South and Midwest……bats are Mother Nature’s most important insectivore by consuming its body weight in night flying insects) and Chytrid (another mysterious and devastating fungal infection that is wiping out amphibian species around the world).

  • mo flow, I’ve got no problem with the love gang urging us to be nice as civilization falls apart. I hope, yes, hope, that when it all falls apart, I am not one trying to eat my neighbor. I hope that when it all falls apart, I can go to sleep forever.

    I feel really bad about the next generation. They are fucked, even if they have hopes and dreams. Those aren’t likely to come true. Their parents have made sure of that.

    Listen, I spend a lot of time trying to get people to understand that the choice to be made right now is to power this industrial civilization down TODAY so that there MIGHT be a chance for a tomorrow. No one is listening. They are too busy gassing up their jetskis or atvs or powerboats or other fossil fuel burning “toys” to listen. They don’t see the dying trees, they don’t pay attention to the natural world. And, why should they?

    So I come here. To where people *are* paying attention, to where people know what is coming, so that I can learn. What I am pleading for is to let us do that without telling us we are the problem *because* we want to do that.

    Was I too harsh? I don’t think so. When someone *repeatedly* denies, without supporting evidence, the major premise of a blog, I think eventually that person needs to be called out.

    Why is that so hard to understand?

  • @ TRDH

    “In short, Artleads, practice what you preach. If you’re so convinced of the feasibility of a fix, then go do it. In five years, assuming the internet is still working – a BIG assumption – then let us know how you’re doing.”

    I do grow food, having done so intermittently for decades when land was available, and more consistently during the past eight years since having some outdoor space of my own. My ideal is always to grow enough food to stay alive all year, although I fall short of that today.

    We face one sort of food emergency now. In the west it’s that our food system that DOES keep us alive is poisonous to us as well as destructive to the planet. But the “emergency” here is that the destruction of life a la NTE is GRADUAL, precluding widespread recognition of it. This gradualism affects how I deal with food. Were actual starvation right up on us, I (and many others) would buckle down to growing food sufficient to last all year. Maybe there are pitfalls to this approach. Maybe when push comes to shove it will be hard or impossible THEN to do what is needed to grow all our food. But that is at least a year off :-). Meanwhile, there is everything else in the world to be also concerned about.

    I conclude that there is a far greater problem with gradualism than whether I grow all my food right now. Gradualism, by its very nature, keeps even many who are aware of the crisis in suspension. We wait, trying to figure out how exactly the future (in its micro-detail aspect) might play out. In the meantime we push in the direction of self-sufficiency broadly speaking, even if we are imperfect examples of it ourselves.

    @ mo flo

    Thanks, my friend. You explain the context in which I fit far better than I could. I do indeed have the stomach–as much as anyone else here–to contemplate what’s ahead. In the recent deluge, which none of the oldtimers here had ever seen the likes of, roads got damaged, houses flooded, a bridge or two destroyed… But soon after I was talking with an Irish native, who concurred that this rain was nothing compared with what we foreign-born folks were familiar with. My current community, for instance, lacks a drainage system sufficient for a deluge. To which my thought is: are fucking kidding me?????? You haven’t seen ANYTHING yet!

    So what comes off on NBL as Pollyanna is not necessarily that. The scarcity I’m prepared to deal with (and even ENJOY) would seem like an extinction event to many who consider me unrealistic.

  • Cowgirl Apocalypse Haiku #50

    Silty sky makes earth
    seem lighter; brittle soil wisps
    dissolve into air.

    Thanks, KK :-).

  • @ jeff

    “Yes, wind mills/turbines and passive solar preceded the industrial revolution. But they did not have to provide the energy requirements of present day society. And Something that hopium addicts just cannot get.”

    IC is responsible for NTE. “(P)resent day society” IS IC. What I propose is not the perpetuation of IC, and consequently, not like present day society. This is something that those who have never lived outside of IC cannot get.

    @ logspirit

    You are a very brave and wonderful man. Decades ago, when a gun was pointed at me, I ran. I much prefer your response, and I give thanks that you are here with us today.


    I haven’t had time to check out today’s Democracy Now with Amy Goodman, who introduced the discussion event at the Conference on Women re climate change. She moderated the discussion with Vandana Sheeva and Jane Goodall. Neither of these women could be categorized as naïve, but they might be dismissed and told to get off NBL if they posted here. I wouldn’t be surprised if Amy talks about this remarkable event on today’s show.

  • Artleads Says:
    September 23rd, 2013 at 7:53 am
    “@ jeff

    “Yes, wind mills/turbines and passive solar preceded the industrial revolution. But they did not have to provide the energy requirements of present day society. And Something that hopium addicts just cannot get.”

    IC is responsible for NTE. “(P)resent day society” IS IC. What I propose is not the perpetuation of IC, and consequently, not like present day society. This is something that those who have never lived outside of IC cannot get.”

    Regardless of whether IC is perpetuated or not, the number of humans makes a huge difference, as do the energy requirements of what it is that you do wish to perpetuate. As if there will be a decision to not perpetuate IC. Truth is, modern humans are addicted to IC, it has become second nature to them. See the last section of

    Monbiot is a rewilder. So why not start thinking about thinking positive, that the end of the human monoculture is giving evolution a chance to repopulate the world with animals wich will Never use agriculture again. Maybe this is this the meaning of this suffer, that no species ever will repeat our faults? For the nuclear power plants we have to build a backup for them. PV is nowadays cheapest solution, when it comes to New installed power…yes climate change is too fast to switch to clean energy. And you will Need time, because we have to burn fossile Energy. But for cooling the reactors Down it would be feasable. But i have no hope that people will Start doing the right thing, so we have to follow the path of Jungk or other thinkers and find meaning in future suffering to live as long as possible as human.

  • silly, silly, humans.

    There will be no plan other than to run us all over the cliff. The only real answer is a pandemic.

    There’s no reason to do anything because nothing can be done. The world’s wealthiest 16 percent (you and me, folks, look in the mirror) use 80 percent of the world’s resources. You have millions of people starving, children suffering, and yet we still consume as if there is no end.

    If the 16% would lay down and die, there would just be another 16% waiting to take their place. The 16% exist only because they have the power to do so.

    Earth: 7.1 Billion people
    China: 1.3 Billion people
    India: 1.2 Billion people
    USA: 0.3 Billion people

    Reconcile that in your mind, and sleep easy tonight, the end is nigh.

  • “(The fact that NTE takes place at glacial pace is itself a major crisis, insofar as it mesmerizes and paralyzes the majority of people against action. I suggest we look into that crisis separately and not mush it together with other crises, where it merely confuses the issues.)”

    Isn’t the proposition that people won’t change–for surely they can?–based on the above? TPTB will not prevent backyard gardening and force you to buy at the store, or will they? But no one can see the writing on the wall, the pace of NTE is too slow for that. Which precludes any effort toward self-sufficiency?

    If you don’t lump the masses together as a stupidly perverse meat robots there is no reason to suppose that any among them couldn’t start growing food. Many in these parts grew up in more self-sufficient ways than I, and, if they chose, could grow circles around what I might do giving it my all. You seem to write off the masses.

    I don’t know shit about dmd, and am not attracted by anything alluding to it. NBL appeals to me for the reason that it puts out the understood facts so honestly and clearly (and with such broad wisdom). The fact that I’m not entirely a believer means no disrespect to Guy and others. I’m interested in the bottom line-ness of the NTE issue. It’s just down to live or die, survive or perish. But I’m not above the masses, able to understand things that they don’t. So given some room for wonder at WTF is going on, I tend to locate myself within the folds of the masses. When the masses get the message that we’re doomed, I will get it too. I am them and they are me.

    Meanwhile I try to think logically (although I’m sure you will disagree, if you even believe I can think at all!). If you would, treat my posts as writing projects and criticize then SPECIFICALLY on what they say. Just glossing over my SPECIFIC words and making broad assertions as to my cluelessness is insulting. I have more respect for you than that.

  • Certainly for doomers and deniers alike, everything would be easier if there was a climate change cataclysm to point to as proof (one way or another) for NTE. There seems to be desire to equate things to the “Pear Harbor” moment when action will begin in earnest, hopefully in a Hollywood fashion where a handsome young man will lead us from peril to safety, though many will fall along the way.

    The problem of course being that climate change IS the cataclysm we’re wishing to see. That it’s not happening in a a cinematic fashion with surround sound and special effects and musical cues to clue us all in when to shriek in terror and laugh in relief is linked to our inability to see just how dramatic “1000 year floods” taking place all over the world happen to be. Stuck in the middle of the storm, we’re not seeing what the storm is doing. As always, it is very very difficult to focus on the “global” of global warming and what we know best is the world outside our backdoor.

    NTE is not moving at a glacial pace, it is very likely to happen within our lifetime. The current generation being born this instant could very well be the last generation. 20 years to snuffing out the planet is hardly slow. BUT because there aren’t bells tolling Dies Irae ever waking second, we end up not seeing it. I mean, it’s gorgeous out right now. Just stunning. How can anything awful be happening?

    And yet… every day, more carbon pumped into the atmosphere, more methane released from various spots around the world, more things dying. We’re starting to see more charismatic mega fauna being being hit — polar bears, moose, rhinos, elephants — and while our attention is diverted to them, more keystone species are being endangered.

    Eventually, there will be the big Cataclysmic moment when everyone everywhere will be able to see what we’ve been sowing for so long. There might be some actual political movement to do something, but most of us know it’s too late. It’s been too late for years. The struggle to fight against this corrupt system remains. There’s really nothing else left to do.

  • Plenty of bells tolling. What is unfolding in the Middle East on a daily basis (with Japan & Europe not far behind) is a view into our deteriorating present. Resource depletion, climate chaos, increasing repression (at home & abroad), more and more people hungry & desperate, the species that support the web of life dying at an unprecedented rate. When the ecosystem collapses and the water dries up, you move or starve. Few will go quietly into that “gentle” night.

    Mother Nature and the Middle Class
    -Thomas Friedman NYTimes, 2013-09-22

    “…I can guarantee that the next 30 years will not be the same old, same old. Two huge new forces have muscled their way into the center of both Egyptian and Iranian politics, and they will bust open their old tired duopolies.

    The first newcomer is Mother Nature. Do not mess with Mother Nature. Iran’s population in 1979 when the Islamic Revolution occurred was 37 million; today it’s 75 million. Egypt’s was 40 million; today it’s 85 million. The stresses from more people, climate change and decades of environmental abuse in both countries can no longer be ignored or bought off.”


    “But just as Mother Nature is demanding better governance from above in both countries, an emergent and empowered middle class, which first reared its head with the 2009 Green revolution in Iran and the 2011 Tahrir revolution in Egypt, is doing so from below. A government that just provides “order” alone in either country simply won’t cut it anymore.”

    He concludes (incorrectly in my mind):

    “And pay attention: What Mother Nature and these newly empowered citizens have in common is that they can both set off a wave — a tsunami — that can overwhelm their systems at any moment, and you’ll never see it coming.”

    I do see it coming (as do the rest of the folks on this site). I have seen it coming for years. Fucking BS excuse. Any reasonably intelligent person can see that this is a lie. The biggest lie of all.

    Climate chaos (complete with an increasing number of irreversible positive feedbacks) + dramatic decline in potable water worldwide + the end of cheap energy + a ponzi scheme economy based on the desperate actions of sociopaths who think that are the ones that will magically make it through some mystical bottleneck (I believe they are intelligent enough to see that what is coming is going to be bad) = our current predicament: standing on the beach watching in awe at the approaching tsunami. Powerless to stop it. Not really sure I am at all interested in helping the blind to see it. They will know soon enough. They will react poorly.

  • logspirit – “I was very nearly no longer here to communicate with all of you anymore.” just reading this first sentence chilled me to the bone – I was truly horrified in that moment when I felt the possibility of losing you. then hearing the rest of your story… jeez, whatever light you have around you, whatever light allowed you to smile in acceptance! man, I can only say, I am so beyond glad you are still here, and so glad I have had the chance to know something about you from your beautiful voice here. you are still here, and I am so immensely relieved and happy!

    “The stench of a hungry beast’s hot breath lingers in my mind.” thank you not only for putting this into words, but doing it again in that way you do so well. this is something so hard to grasp. it is something that is such a part of NTE that it is no wonder many only want to look at just the physics, chemistry and biology, and just think of it all as meaningless nonsense. the dead eyes of that beast, the death force that drags everything into its vortex of pure nihilism for no reason other than it can. its only channel into the world is through humanity, and the smaller or larger doorways that are left open in invitation.

    the Kabbalists who have dared to really try to understand the force of evil and its place in the universe have taken some ideas about this to immense heights. the essence of it – it is built in to the fabric of the universe because we ourselves wanted the challenge. we wanted the game of finding our infinite creative natures to such an extent that we ourselves could know we could transform the worst of the worst that could ever be created, and liberate all the light that was used to empower the evil woven into the very fabric of earthly reality, by god himself, at our request!

    what a mind fuck. is it any wonder these kinds of things are so hard to approach? to be very clear, I am *not* saying I actually agree with this philosophy. not only that, I have seen this particular version of things taken to what seems to me to be very wrong understandings. I have my own entirely “Self-generated” understanding of what is going on there, based solely, as I’ve said before, on my own direct experience. it does not match these details, but it is not exclusive of them, either.

    stories, as ulvfugl has pointed out so well, are extremely essential, because they allow a specific weaving and understanding that gives meaning where meaning is very much required. I think it is very close to the total truth that it is all just stories. knowing who or what has the power to weave, and just what amazing magic it can weave, ah that’s a very fine story, too!

    I don’t know what in totality you faced in that moment, logspirit, but you may have done something quite beyond your wildest dreams (other than just surviving!) ah, so much to say, but this is where I will leave it off. again, I am just so totally happy that you are still here!

    “Can’t stop the spirits when the need you
    This life is more than just a read through”

    some very fine lyrics that just came my way… for you, my dear logspirit!

    wildwoman – “So I come here. To where people *are* paying attention, to where people know what is coming, so that I can learn. What I am pleading for is to let us do that without telling us we are the problem *because* we want to do that.”

    I hear you, completely. just grasping NTE in its totality is so impossibly hard, on so many levels, that no, I don’t want there to be any interference with that process, your process and mine both, at all! your reason for being here is essentially exactly the same as mine, I think – to allow for our space of knowing this horrible knowledge, and allowing it to be, undisturbed with any further delusion.

    I am with you on that, totally. “NTE is solid gold” as I said a few moons ago. I meant that. it is the reality that comes from complete understanding of what has been done, on what scale it has been done, and what it really means.

    coming to this understanding is an alchemical transformation from the black dross of denial, confusion, hopium (the real thing), and almost blinding fear, to a place of awareness where the light of this particular golden nugget of truth can shine through.

    so yes, I see and accept what you are saying to Arteleads, as it stands. but I also accept what Artleads is saying, completely as it stands, because he is speaking to another truth. he seems to have all the necessary grasp of the first nugget, so he has earned the right, at least as I see the terms here on NBL, of sharing his other truths. I think people here have given me some very nice latitude for all the same reasons, so I want to return the favor.

    truth, and all our individuals stories about truth and life and what we are experiencing – I just want to hear them all, and share mine, while we all know where we are together, camped out here around this warm fire.

  • Dear Wildwoman, I was struck by your last post which I am going to reflect back for you and the other members here in the comment section. But first I think it valuable to point out that it seems, scientifically speaking, that this community has been neatly divided up into two large groups by some commenters. True believers and non-believers. I think you are of the group of commenters making the division and consider yourself part of the TB (True Believer) group. You consider Mo flo as part of the NB group (Non-Believer). Further, scientifically speaking, you believe with absolute certainty you are right and all others are wrong. If you had the power you would force the immediate dismantling of the IC on all. I imagine you would either kill or round up and place in concentration camps those billions who would be resisting your belief? Regardless, I ponder this idea that prior to general agreement we ‘dismantle’, seems pretty horrific. Also even with a mass agreement how would we go about it? First dismantle all hazardous sites as thoroughly as possible starting with the nuclear power facilities. Second? Third? And so on. There are one thousand steps to address this as non-horrifically as possible and forcing horrors on human life to preserve all life for this particular epoch, is not a trade off I can endorse. Could you? I believe life on earth will prevail based on the science and yes it will take hundreds of thousands of years to occur in significant prevalence, but, it will. Easy enough to claim, it may seem. But for me, for who I am, it is a claim that I stake my life on. We are collectively attached to so many ideas, but few can recognize this. Someone in the last thread, which I agree had a pervasively annoying level of hopium, agreed with my idea that there are some traumas that cannot be transfigured. Let me state that though I know there is a way to heal, the price is not rainbows in the soul nor a sunshiny love grind. It is the ruination of the soul, death of a spiritual kind that would leave thise willing to suffer it, at peace knowing they did all they could to preserve life, but the price broke them. And I don’t mean a nice breaking. Just that for that group, the knowledge, full knowledge, saving knowledge is not nice in this case, but cruel and merciless as nature in her finest always is. So in my awareness I could not tell people a happy story about how they would be better for going through the fire I am aware must be transcended. But I thought, niavely for awhile, that to save the earth and a chance to leave a future for our children, some men and women would be willing. The two main identified groups here have proven me wrong, the realists who believe it is over except that all or most must die a horrific death and the dreamers who think all can survive if we get happy or high enough.

    No one sees what I see and you are all catching up to me but under the duress of the actual unfolding if the early trauma occurrences. I was in your shoes years ago and there was no group who knew what I saw coming. Not one soul to commiserate with, and certainly no God in a form I to turn to for anything but more of the nightmare I watched unfolding. So you may think you have it bad with folks like Mo flo to disrupt your dream community, but from my point of view I find your belief rather foolish mostly because you don’t see comrades when they present themselves. Also you don’t seem to really be embracing the truth. I see you as both lucky for having this group and unlucky because time wise, it may not matter.

    So it goes.

  • should be of course:

    ““Can’t stop the spirits when they need you
    This life is more than just a read through”

  • Grant, the above link is for you. Your self description made me smile and one smile deserves another.

    Robin Datta, I don’t understand you at least 75% of the time, but I think I grok what you are saying. You’re right, you’re right, I know you’re right.

    pilot17, thanks.

  • Breaking Bad, Season 5, Disc 1 arrived in the mail today! But wait! I see that Guy’s interview with Michael Ruppert is available too! What shall I do!?! It’s a no brainer. After stuffing myself with spanokopitas, I plan on indulging in a little stark reality right here on NBL. :) .

  • Dr. House…thanks for the explanation. Ironically, I did think of the issue of “feedstock,” but not knowing the process and not assuming how the process works, I ask. So, what you iterate is what I have considered already, if you read my posts above. So, I will continue to research and try to find firm answer.

    guy, thanks for the reasonable factual response: that you don;t think we’ll have the energy to do so.

    Kathy, I read more than I write, thanks. I notice that lots of folks make all kinds of assumptions with consequent attacks on this site. I vote for more reason and basic kindness.

  • Stage 4 Doom

    You might think your mind’s going to flip,
    But depression’s a stage you can’t skip;
    Though this might come across
    As just more Kubler-Ross,
    It will pass, and is part of the trip.

  • @ Lidia Thanks for the concern. Yes, looking down that gun barrel was a bit unnerving. Like some psychedelic TV news emerging out of the screen and entering my reality. I vote for making accelerating madness an official ‘tipping point’ on the slippery slope to human extinction. Anybody second the motion? Eh, don’t bother… we all have more important things to do… like getting our last wills and testaments together… hmmm, actually that seems a bit pointless too. Oh well, enjoy whatever there is to enjoy… our time is nearly expired on the parking meter of Life, hole in the pocket, no more nickels, empty gas tank, hole in sole and another in soul. Empty holes and empty stomachs and bullet holes everywhere. Angry echoes ricochet down lonely dirty streets. Bouncing off a hard disinterested world, spilling soft bodies in thick red trails diluted by transparent tears. Here lies dead the unknown citizen, homeless in life, homeless in death. Still unwanted. But I will enjoy Life as much as I can, and that’s probably going to bother someone, with that gun in his hand, who won’t.

  • TIAA – hugs!

    now – “You consider Mo flo as part of the NB group (Non-Believer).”

    I believe in nothing. i mean that in the most literal way imaginable. I have no faith, and no hope for any salvation of anything.

    how could it be possible to believe even in science and facts, when the dream that creates the dreamers of science and facts can be switched off instantly, everywhere and all at once, by forces so beyond comprehension that they cannot ever be named, comprehended even in the tiniest, let alone beseeched?

    our total universe is not more than a wet tissue to these forces – something that can be tossed into complete nothingness again at a whim. the only reason, I think, it is not tossed away so easily is some of that force has been woven into things here, and hasn’t, up until now, decided it wants to leave – but that is only a guess in my personal story.

    gods? no, these forces are not gods. for gods, we at least have the mental ability to tell stories about them. the Real is completely beyond stories. and the bizarre thing is there are actually powers out there far beyond where we are, and they are just as desperate as we are to tell stories to themselves that try to make sense of this ultimate force.

    no stories, no limits, no reasons. the ultimate – that thing we can only pathetically call “not that” because it is forever beyond reach of any conceivable level of awareness that can describe *anything at all* – the existence of that ultimate force puts any question of belief in anything completely out of the picture for me.

    yes, the atheist physicalists like to mock the “believers” for beseeching this power. this always felt screwy to me when I *was* an atheist, and it feels even more screwy to me now. anything within us or around us that can help, coming from the unseen, is only just a hare’s breath further along than where we are here.

    we may be blown away by a paranormal experience or a miracle, but these experiences really are no more remarkable than learning a new language, performing some remarkable athletic feat, or any other similar feat of mental and/or physical growth and self discipline.

    To create my story, I only take what i consider as direct experience, and weave that into my world in ways that best fit the story I have woven up to that point. if parts of my experience eventually demand that my story changes, I change it. if I didn’t change things in my story, everywhere and all the time, I would simply go insane, and kill myself with no hesitation, or just shrivel inside, as a dead shell.

    (btw, I really dug Paul C’s idea of the changing mercurial nature of truth. boy, did he nail that!)

    there are some things in my story that are so outlandish, so preposterous, that I rejected them for years, tried to pretend they were not saying what they were saying, until i realized i was actually dying a slow death from the inside because things were unravelling. i was being handed threads, but i didn’t want to see the picture they made. finally i gave in, and now the weaving moves on again, on different fronts all totally outrageous, and the allowing gets weirder in such everyday ways that I sometimes have to remind myself that I am still on this planet, and the ground is still there, as always.

    you are so dead on, TIAA. the new stories that are being woven, I suspect for many even here who feel it but don’t dare speak it, they are the death of everything we know, except the eternal things that have always served us well.

    there are no “rainbows in the soul” here, indeed, only something so “cruel and merciless” that it will wring out every last drop of delusion that gets in its way, down, down, down, all the way down.

    those ideas we are so collectively attached to? no worries, they will be blown away like they never even existed. in a way, I am amused that the resistance to just the “natural” outcomes of NTE is so hard to accept, when in fact the deeper resistance to what might be coming is going to make all that completely pale in comparison.

    life will go on, we will go on. in what forms, where and when, who knows? I have no faith, no idea, and no hope.

  • I believe in nothing.

    Who is it that asserts thus? An answer implicit in the assertion. Only the asserter can have direct experience of the answer. To all others, any answer is mere inference.

  • Jack Kathy, I read more than I write, thanks. I notice that lots of folks make all kinds of assumptions with consequent attacks on this site. I vote for more reason and basic kindness.

    Excuse my lack of specificity. You may well read a lot. But either you have not read, or read and didn’t understand, or read and disagreed with such works as Heinbergs on Peak Oil and other resources, Joseph Tainter on why complex societies inevitably fail by their very nature, Craig Dilworth on why humans inevitably will fail by their very nature, and Daniel Wegner on the Illusion of Conscious Will. I could list others that you clearly have not read, have read and not understood, or read and disagreed. Your comment about printing food showed your ignorance of the fact that printers cannot manufacture food out of nothing. Plants can’t manufacture food out of nothing, they need minerals and sunlight. They are masters at what they do, having been shaped by years of evolution and domestic food plants shaped by years of human selection. The idea that our technology could preform better than plants is absurd. Would those printers make meat with no raw materials and without energy???

    I stopped reading about the state of the world halfway through a book by Leon Uris about Berlin during WWII. I could not handle man’s inhumanity to man any more so I turned to light fiction and science fiction and science. I read a lot. None of those books told me about Hubbert’s Peak. Not one suggested that technology couldn’t go on forever. None suggested that technology was a curse. But reality in the end won over. I want to know how it all ends and when. I want to know just how inhumane humans can be. I cannot stand denial.

    You are not reading the books that matter Jack. Whether you know it or not, energy has a ratio of return to energy invested and just like the bottom line on a company statement, if the energy invested is greater than the energy returned you are bankrupt. No hunter gatherer would walk a full day for food that would sustain him for less than a day. He doesn’t have to know ERoEI, he just knows if he gets less than a days worth of food every day he will starve. Already in Industrial Civ our agriculture and delivery system puts in 9 calories worth of energy for 1 calorie of food. That is unsustainable when the oil runs out and printing food would add further energy input not less to that equation.

    We cannot technology our way out of this because our technology needs oil and electricity. We cannot simplify our way out of this because there are temperatures that plants and humans cannot survive at and we are heading that way. And we won’t decommission the nuclear plants before the grid goes down.

    What we can do is make the most of each day, which makes me wonder what the heck I am doing blogging here. Think I will go have a cup of coffee while coffee is to be had. Just about decided, like so many others, that this blog has become a haven for denial, and shut up so you can argue about the correctness of each others version of denial.