What I have learned, what we should be thankful for, what remains to be done

by Geoffrey Chia, a Cardiologist based in Brisbane, Australia. He sent this essay to the supporters of his D3SJ group as a prelude to discontinuing their meetings after November. His previous article in this space is here.

McPherson apologizes for the format of this essay. In the absence of decent technical skills or an assistant, this is the best way he can quickly post the essay and retain the content. Click each page for easy viewing or see the pdf here

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McPherson’s monthly contribution for Transition Voice was posted Monday, 14 October 2013. It’s here.

Wednesday, 16 October 2013, 6:00 p.m., Visual Arts Complex Auditorium, Colorado University, Boulder, Colorado, How Do We Act in the Face of Climate Chaos? Description here.

Boulder Colorado October 2013Transition Voice, How to respond to climate chaos”300″ class=”aligncenter size-medium wp-image-5544″ />

Saturday, 19 October 2013, Boulder, Colorado. Workshop. Details forthcoming.

Comments 238

  • It’s good to know we are not alone in knowing.

    It’s sad to know that our smart selves have destroyed pretty much Every Living Thing on Earth.

    I am very much hoping for a quick descent into collapse – it’s the only chance any biology might have. Even if it’s just cockroaches and jellyfish, it’s something, since we do not know how precious life actually is in the Universe…

    Plant no crops, build no cities.

  • Does anyone else see the irony in lamenting the fact that NTHE means the loss of all human achievement? In one breath he says humans are wholly bad and there was no way this could have turned out differently and then cries that its happened. Silly humans.

    The sun will be rising soon in Japan. Fuk-U-shima reports anticipated to be ‘All Good.’

  • Dr. Chia, as you almost surely know, NASA’s CARVE Project has recently observed methane plumes 150 km in diameter exiting the Arctic Ocean directly into the atmospheric commons – an abrupt rate of change & then some.

    Our impending deaths are right in front of us as Bangledeshies suffer & die now.

    Two well-healed yuppie friends fly to Switzerland from Boulder, CO to ski & Honduras to scuba.

    The CO2 produced for the Switzerland excursion (round trip for 2) is 24 TONS.

  • Sorry, but most of what i read in this essay is a misanthropic screed, with virtually no facts i haven’t already seen elsewhere. In the process, he damns the present Australian government, as if the previous “Labour” government was really substantially different, and calls for a government by “the wise,” as if!!

  • The wealthy think the world should be ruled by the wealthy.
    Authoritarians are happy as long as rulers are authoritarians.
    The religious think the world should be run by (their precise flavor of) religious people.
    The wise think the world should be run by the wise.

    Democracy is a terrible system, it’s just better than the other ones we’ve thought of.

    Nice to see shout outs to Guy in various locations, but as Jeff S says, no new information here.

    Broad democracy and consumer capitalism are both Enlightenment concepts based on the idea of informed, rational actors making rational decisions.

    These are countered in practice by campaigns and advertising designed to present only information that favors your candidate/party/product, or outright misinformation, and to encourage emotional decisions contrary to your rational better interest, or the rational interest of society as a whole. Misinformed actors (whose rationality was probably exaggerated in the first place) making emotional decisions aren’t going to have the theoretical result.

  • Cowgirl Apocalypse Haiku #63

    Logjam upriver
    gathers the strength required
    to carve a new course.

  • Gerald Spezio Says:

    ” … NASA’s CARVE Project has recently observed methane plumes 150 km in diameter exiting the Arctic Ocean directly into the atmospheric commons….”

    The article on this topic I was able to locate and read said: “Ultimately, the scientists hope their observations will indicate whether an irreversible permafrost tipping point may be near at hand. While scientists don’t yet believe the Arctic has reached that tipping point, no one knows for sure.”

    This article was posted in June this Year.

    https://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/06/13/2138531/nasa-finds-amazing-levels-of-arctic-methane-and-co2-asks-is-a-sleeping-climate-giant-stirring-in-the-arctic/

  • Hmm. My posting was not successful. Testing… testing. Have I been banned from posting here? Hmm.

  • Albert Bartlett pointed out rather a long time ago that factors regarded as good -healthcare, sanitation, peace etc.- exacerbate the predicament, and that factors regarded as bad -disease, starvation, war, suicide etc.- mitigate the predicament.

    Healthcare for me and my progeny, and not for anyone else? Peace for me and my progeny, and war for everyone else?

    It’s too late now, of course. Humanity took the wrong fork in the road long ago, arguably when some distant ancestor figured out how to tie a knot and secure a stone to a long straight piece of wood.

    We can only speculate what the world might have been like now if Albert Bartlett’s message had been heeded when first delivered, or if the ‘Limits to Growth’ agenda had been adopted when first presented. What might the world be like now if Bill Mollison’s [Australian] message had been heeded three decades ago? What might the world be like now if the managed contraction so many of us hoped for a decade ago had been implemented.

    Such notions now seem as fanciful as colonising Mars.

  • My posting was not successful.

    Cookies, cookies!

    Either delete all cookies each time before starting the browser, or delete all cookies from a solitary blank page each time before exiting the browser, or once the cookies are deleted, use only private / incognito / whatever (depending on the browser) browsing.

    For Internet Explorer 8 there was a freeware barebones browser called Browzaar that used the IE engine with a spartan shell, but which would automatically delete all content including cookies, cache, etc. on exit. I don’t know if it is still available or if it works with IE 10.

    I use private browsing with Safari on IOS 7, and it works fine. But after posting I have to exit & restart the browser.

    factors regarded as good -healthcare, sanitation, peace etc.- exacerbate the predicament, and that factors regarded as bad -disease, starvation, war, suicide etc.- mitigate the predicament.

    What’s “good” is whatever promotes the faster dissipation of energy and the faster increase entropy. Humanity is of less consequence than an astronomical nova. What is good and what is bad is hardwired into the system at a level more basic than biology or chemistry: at the level of physics, the second law of thermodynamics, so basic that it determines even the direction of time’s arrow.

  • @ Robin Datta

    …at the level of physics, the second law of thermodynamics, so basic that it determines even the direction of time’s arrow.

    In 2010, Van Raamsdonk studied what that means when quantum particles on the boundary are ‘entangled’ — meaning that measurements made on one inevitably affect the other12. He discovered that if every particle entanglement between two separate regions of the boundary is steadily reduced to zero, so that the quantum links between the two disappear, the three-dimensional space responds by gradually dividing itself like a splitting cell, until the last, thin connection between the two halves snaps. Repeating that process will subdivide the three-dimensional space again and again, while the two-dimensional boundary stays connected. So, in effect, Van Raamsdonk concluded, the three-dimensional universe is being held together by quantum entanglement on the boundary — which means that in some sense, quantum entanglement and space-time are the same thing.

    Or, as Maldacena puts it: “This suggests that quantum is the most fundamental, and space-time emerges from it.”

    http://www.nature.com/news/theoretical-physics-the-origins-of-space-and-time-1.13613

  • Thanks, Guy, for posting this. Even though the data is familiar, I appreciate hearing about an intelligent, socially caring and active, aware person’s journey to the devastating truth. I have had a similar jolt into reality in the last few months, so it helps to hear this story about how his knowledge unfolded. I too thought NTE was going to happen “later, if we don’t do something soon”, not, “It is happening NOW.”

    Just when I think I’ve accepted it I decide there must still be SOME hope, somewhere, somehow. Just when I think there must still be some hope, I return here (NBL) and return to the reality of NTE.

    So, for the old timers here, I don’t think the only purpose of NBL is to present new information. Give us all some room here. If it doesn’t serve your needs, that’s okay, but someone else might benefit.

    I got the “What I Have Learned” part of the article, but not sure how “What We Should Be Thankful For or What Remains to Be Done are presented here. I will re-read to see if there is something I missed regarding these things. This last subject preoccupies a lot of my thought processes while I am in “NTE is real” mode. If this is REALLY happening, what the fuck should I be doing, what matters most (to me), what gives my life meaning, what feels right, what is “excellent” in the context of NTE?

    It is ironic for me personally because I was finally beginning to overcome life long trauma that had limited my expression, just beginning to wake up to my potent and true participation in this sacred dance, finally wanting to actually, literally, fully LIVE my LIFE. And now it’s time to get ready to die.

    And my two children… I may be self centered, but that is one of the hardest parts to integrate. Instinct and love combined make a very strong attachment.

    I live in Hawaii, and have decided at this time to focus on growing as much food as possible for as long as possible, so that at least as long as that works (with regard to changing temps.) more people can eat- and – less people will be fighting over food – when the boats stop coming, ie., as industrial economies continue to collapse. I am taking a Permaculture design course so that I can learn more, and (in my deeper heart regions), I am enjoying the company of people who love the earth, who may not all know the extremes we face, but who are also intending to grow food for the same or related reasons. I am taking increasing emotional and physical space from my husband because he will not face or even really discuss climate change/NTE, and I need to respect my self and my sanity. I am exploring creative expression (spoken word, song, movement art) so that I will be able to express my love, my angst and the truth as I experience or understand it, in a context in which it feels like an offering and a healing for myself and others. I already work with trauma and am debating whether to continue school to get a Masters degree to make this a more official role that I can play when lots more trauma begins to occur. I haven’t decided on this course of action, because I don’t want to waste my time and I find that academia/academentia generally does that. But action is what I must seek. Otherwise, I die now. And that doesn’t seem excellent, although honestly, I briefly considered that it might be.

    Great comics, etc., in this article.

    I think this information is soon going to become widespread knowledge:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451604/Apocalypse-Now-Unstoppable-man-climate-change-reality-end-decade-make-New-York-London-Paris-uninhabitable-45-years-says-new-study.html

  • wow…. Slow clap… Brilliant… speechless…

  • Great essay, great cartoons, gloomy future. My own thinking was similar, perhaps 10 years ago I thought perhaps a population reduction of 50% by the end of the century was likely along the forecasts from Limits to Growth. Over that 10 years though, the greed of so many accelerated and I now reckon the human race has 10-20 years left. As I’m 60 years old now, I lose little but I was told recently I shall become a grandfather early next year – I offered my smiling congratulations but really I cried inside for that child with only a Dante-like future. Best I can do is eat into my superannuation to establish a little semi-self sustainable place to hang on a little longer when the going gets really tough – if I want to. Do I? Do you?

    I also agree this view will explode on the majority of middle class people in the next 1-2 years when Government can no longer hold the lies together.

  • Fuk-U-shima reports anticipated to be ‘All Good.’

    Gloating serves as a security blanket in troubled times, sunshades against the blazing reality.

    “Black swans” (and for that matter, “white swans” are by their nature unforeseeable. It is impossible to forecast which snowflake will trigger the avalanche. And indeed, there may be no avalanche in the anticipated time frame.

  • James R Martin,

    It can take a while for a comment to show up. Be patient!

    Thanks for pointing out that a scientist on the CARVE project is effectively saying that it is far too early to pronounce that a feedback has been triggered.

    A couple of other points: the article pointed to in the feedback entry shows a graph of arctic methane spikes at one measuring station, but the spikes quickly returned to “normal” indicating either anomalous readings or very small local amounts of methane being released. Also, CARVE seems to be researching permafrost releases, not ocean releases, as the feedback listed in the Climate Summary and Update post states.

  • Apocalypse cowgirl I love you. X

  • @ Tony

    Thanks for pointing out that a scientist on the CARVE project is effectively saying that it is far too early to pronounce that a feedback has been triggered.

    You think your thinking is NOT bizarre, Tony ?

    I invite the readers to look at that link, and read, and see what it says which is ‘effectively’ nothing of the sort.

    Anyway, you do not need to be a scientist to understand this. You only need to think about it for two minutes. The whole of Alaska, Northern Canada, Northern Europe, Northern Russia, Northern Siberia, all around the northern hemisphere, there is permafrost, frozen peat, decayed vegetable material.

    It’s been like that since the end of the last glaciation, the beginning of the Holocene, roughly 10,000 years ago. In some places it’s 800 feet thick. Sometimes some of it has thawed and then its refrozen as the climate has warmed and cooled.

    Now what is going to happen over the next 100 years ? The climate is going to warm. Nobody in their right mind, even conservative climate science of the IPCC, is forecasting that it is going to get COLDER up there.

    We’ve just had weeks of tropical temperatures in Alaska and N. Siberia of 95 deg F. The Arctic is warming disproportionately faster than the rest of the planet.

    So, what does that mean ? It means the permafrost is melting. And is going to keep on melting. And keep on melting. And the rotting vegetation is going to keep on releasing CO2 and methane. Which will add to the heating of the atmosphere.

    That is a positive feedback !

    You do not need to be a scientist to understand this. A small child can grasp it, I’m sure.

    But that is only a small part of the picture. There’s enough CO2 and methane in that frozen peat to keep us cooking for centuries, millennia, it doesn’t just rot, the bacteria produce heat as they metabolize it, just as they produce heat inside cow’s stomachs, and that means they can melt snow and ice by their activity.

    And, as the peat dries out, it can catch fire, from lightning, and then burn, indefinitely, like a smouldering coal seam, deep into the ground, producing soot which will fall onto the snow and change the albedo, so it melts faster.

    And there’s another lot of permafrost to consider, in Central Asia, the Qinghai Tibet Plateau, there’s massive amounts of frozen peat covering methane hydrates, which are melting and will keep on melting, as the ground warms and snow changes to rain.

    That’s at least as serious as the methane coming from Antarctica and from the Arctic Ocean and from the East Siberian Arctic Sea.

    We’ve had all kinds of denial here on this blog, from people who simply cannot accept the stark and horrible prospect that we all face. It’s very understandable. I sympathise with all my heart. This is the most terribly thing that the human species has ever faced in it’s entire period on Earth. It’s ending.

    But your kind of denial, Tony, appears to be that if you can somehow change the meanings of the words, that that will change the situation.

    20x CO2 in this video is wrong, it should be more like 105x

    @ Apocalypse Cowgirl I love you too 🙂

  • Not just the lack of new stuff that bothers me, but it’s all this focus on blaming the species in general and leaving the social system out of it, as if everyone had an equal role in making the decisions which are most likely to turn out to be fatal to our species and many other species at a minimum.

    WoodsDweller:
    “Broad democracy and consumer capitalism are both Enlightenment concepts based on the idea of informed, rational actors making rational decisions.”

    Actually, both were total scams perpetrated against the population at large. Democracy originally meant rule by the people. The meaning got turned into “representative democracy,” as if the representatives represent anything except the wishes of their most powerful constituents. This was a way for the ruling elite in the US to get the rest of the population to go along with its rule by providing the “masses” with the illusion of a share in social power. The Founding Fathers were quite open about this being the intent. See Madison in Federalist 10 for example. Ellen Meiksins Wood has written good material on this, see Democracy Against Capitalism. And capitalism from the start was a social system imposed by force against the vast majority of the populace, starting with the system’s birthplace in late Medieval England and the Enclosures. Consumer capitalism is nothing more than the material world’s equivalent of that false sense of a share in power, in the case a matter of the illusion that one really has a choice in the market, when in fact the ability to survive outside the market is precluded by mass dispossession, thus rendering the notion of choice a grotesque open lie. It’s not just a matter of how these concepts were executed, the problem lies in the very concepts.

  • ulvfugl,

    I’m trying to look at the science, that I can access, to determine whether feedbacks have been triggered or not, and what the impacts might be. Of course I understand the process you outlined. The question is whether the self-reinforcing feedback loop has been triggered. I don’t think that’s clear from the CARVE work and that is what was cited to support it.

    I also invite others to read the article, other referenced articles and supporting material (which is hard with the NASA sites still down, last time I looked – so had to use Google’s text only cache).

    I’d also urge others to research this in reference to the feedback, as listed by Guy.

  • @ Tony

    The problem is, that you do not seem to have understood what a self-reinforcing feedback loop IS.

  • so sad I could not make it to Boulder last night – could not get out of Denver in time to make it up there. I really wanted to meet Guy and I really wanted to meet local fellow NBL’ers – if any CO folks that attended would like to give a report on the event, I’d like to know how it went…

  • “Here, we report on a sequence of rhythmic sedimentary couplets comprising the Paleocene/ Eocene Marlboro Clay (Salisbury Embayment). These couplets have corresponding δ18O cycles that imply a climatic origin. Seasonal insolation is the only regular climate cycle that can plausibly account for δ18O amplitudes and layer counts. High-resolution stable isotope records show 3.5‰ δ13C decrease over 13 couplets defining the CIE onset, which requires a large, instantaneous release of 13C-depleted carbon. During the CIE, a clear δ13C gradient developed on the shelf with the largest excursions in shallowest waters…”

    link: http://thingsbreak.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/evidence-for-a-rapid-release-of-carbon-at-the-paleocene-eocene-thermal-maximum.pdf

    So there you have it, 5C increase over 13 years.

    It is that level of precision that causes me to wonder can they work out how long was if from the warming of surface, warming at depth, to release of methane.

    Current SST chart shows widespread temps 1-4 degrees above the long term average, with large cooler areas in the tropics which are sucking up the atmospheric forcing of the GHG’s. Those reports of the hydrates destabilizing off the east coast of the U.S., Kara and Laptev get more and more ummm. . . . immediate in terms of implications.

  • It is an empirical fact that massive amounts of methane are being released from the Arctic Ocean’s sea bed into the atmosphere.

    It is an equally confirmed empirical fact that the released methane will accelerate both he greenhouse effect & global heating.

    The probability that the released methane is NOT part of a positive feedback loop leading to highly probable RAPID & RUNAWAY global heating approaches nil.

    It already has done so.

    It approaches certainty.

    EVERYTHING THAT SEMILETOV & SHAKHOVE HAVE PREDICTED FOR SEVERAL YEARS HAS COME TRUE WITH A VENGEANCE.

    Sound science is prediction & empirical test.

  • @ Cristy in Hawaii: seems there are several NBL folks in Hawaii – not sure if you are in contact with each other. Hawaii obviously seems a good place to be when SHTF, but I wonder if a lot of other folks also think so! Primarily, US military. I also wonder how the native Hawaiians will act when SHTF… just don’t eat the fish…

    I was hoping to make it to Boulder last night to see Guy’s presentation, but I wasn’t able to get up there. I would like to have met some like-minded people – maybe form a group of hopeless, helpless, people willing to join me in my quest to become a volunteer sandbag for the decommissioning of nuclear power plants.

    Just waiting now for some whistle-blower to report from Fukushima that massive amounts of contaminated rain run-off from Cyclone Wipha has gone into the Pacific… plenty of bad news already for anything that lives in the Pacific – Hawaii, Alaska, West coast of Canada, California, etc…

    Aug 26, 2013

    It now appears that anywhere from 300 to possibly over 450 tons of contaminated water that contains radioactive iodone, cesium, and strontium-89 and 90, is flooding into the Pacific Ocean from the Fukushima Daichi site everyday. To give you an idea of how bad that actually is, Japanese experts estimate Fukushima’s fallout at 20-30 times as high as as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings in 1945

    There’s a lot you’re not being told. Oh, the information is out there, but you have to dig pretty deep to find it, and you won’t find it on the corporate-owned evening news.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Beach_(1959_film)

    a movie with Gregory Peck about mass suicide to avoid radiation sickness

  • Cowgirl Apocalypse #62

    Collective trauma
    is healed being by being
    in a nest of hands.

  • May 06, 2012
    The waters northeast of the Fukushima plant are among the major fishing zones in the world, responsible for half of Japan’s seafood. But catch from the Ibaraki prefecture showed such high levels of radioactive isotopes that it had to be discarded as radioactive waste [27]. Radioactive contamination in the ocean does not get diluted away, like other pollutants it gets accumulated in the marine food chain, up to fish consumed by humans. Radioactive caesium in sea bass caught in the North Pacific continually rose from March till September, with a maximum found on 15 September of 670Bq/kg. Radioactivity not only disperses passively in the ocean by currents and mixing, but is also spread by fish and mammals. The Pacific Bluefin tuna was found to transport Fukushima-derived radionuclides from Japan to California. Fifteen Pacific Bluefin tuna sampled in August 2011 had elevated levels of Cs- 134 (4.0 + 1.4 Bq/kg) and Cs-137 (6.3 + 1.5 Bq/kg).

  • Whoa, Denise! Thanks for THAT one!

  • @ Jeff S.

    Loved your post on Democracy/capitalism. Thanks!

    We only seem to thrive in small groups (up to, say, 400?) of like minded people who must cooperate to survive. While larger, or even mass, societies apparently can do quite well at times, the conditions enabling them to do so might be dysfunctional within the broader context?

    I’ve worked on a neighborhood planning. A somewhat self-sufficient neighborhood as a basic module of self-government has looked quite promising to some of us.

  • Few women posting, wtf?

  • Rob@thepubliclibrary Says:

    “There’s a lot you’re not being told. Oh, the information is out there, but you have to dig pretty deep to find it, and you won’t find it on the corporate-owned evening news.”

    I’d appreciate pointers to sound and reliable facts and data on Fukushima. From whoever wants to help.

    Also, I’m interested in good links to data and interpretation concerning permafrost methane and CO2 — as well as regional warming trends.

    I’m also interested in speculation as to why Northern regional methane/CO2 releases and risk are not being significantly reported in the media. Or properly included in suchlike as the IPCC report.

  • I took the PDF apart and posted it on my own blog http://chasingthesquirrel.blogspot.com/ I’ve also posted my reactions to it there.

  • Dear K-Dog,

    Thanks for reposting the article in a easier to read format. Nice blog. I thought you would really enjoy reading the new book out called “Denial” by Ajit Varki and Danny Brower. Sadly to say, deciet is scientifically being questioned as not only normal to our ‘intelligence’ but perhaps key to our current level of ‘intelligence’. The author eventually makes this remark regarding this predisposition to denial in self and others;

    “But it is quiet another to deny the reality of climate change.  Here we are talking about a very dangerous planetary experiment in which humanity has only one chance to get it right. The major concern is that we are not doing so, and it will be too late to turn back.”

    I think your observation of the resultant bitterness that most people have at what they call the powers that be, is part and parcel of this same denial. It also ties into more subtle but of the middle, or grey areas of human awareness potential. Where the meat of the matter is hidden from most. Many here are exploring this, it seems your voice would add to the song we are trying to sing or unsing as it may be.

  • @Jeff S.

    “but it’s all this focus on blaming the species in general and leaving the social system out of it, as if everyone had an equal role in making the decisions which are most likely to turn out to be fatal to our species and many other species at a minimum.”

    Yes, I totally agree with everything you said. We, the (not in power) people, have been coerced, manipulated, drugged, irradiated, jailed, tortured, humiliated, relocated, poisoned, YOU NAME IT. The social system is a scam and “we the people” are its slaves.

    And, WE ARE ALL A PART of the social system. At some point, many of us figured that out that it is a scam, and yet we kept participating in it, accepting and allowing it to continue, in order to survive. Can’t blame us really, because apparently we are “programmed” to survive, this is priority #1.

    And perhaps the “ruling class” are “programmed” to control the population, priority #1. I am serious. I have been trying to figure out forever why the hell anyone would make these decisions to destroy life, to be so incredibly cruel and make the choices to annihilate life in all forms in order to what – be rich-ER? It just has not made any sense. It is against priority #1. They are ruining the planet that they also depend upon.

    So, I now consider the possibility that some people actually have different programming.

    I also love Cowgirl Apocalypse.

    If there is anyone here at NBL who also lives on the Big Island, feel free to get in touch with me. thepathofdevotion@yahoo.com

    The military and the Hawaiian’s who harbor resentment at haoles (foreigners) definitely have been on my radar of concern. However, as Guy simply reminded me: we are all going to die sometime, “mileage may vary.” Whether someone shoots me or I die of heat or starvation or something else, the end of this body will come. So I am trying not to focus anymore on the gory details of my impending demise, because that debilitates me. I am trying to prepare to mitigate the possible conflicts in the ways that I am able, as I mentioned.

    The other thing I have been doing in response to this overwhelming situation, which I forgot to mention, it swimming laps almost every day. This is significant if you know me, since I dislike repetitive routines, and I am a total wimp about being in cold water (think “cat”). But it keeps me breathing and helps me feel stronger and keeps the stagnant qi moving. I need this to go on.

  • I’d be interested in what folks here think about this article.:

    Tipping Point Near
    Published December 7, 2012 | By John James
    http://planetextinction.com/blog/archives/505

    Mr. James seems to think we’re very near or just beyond tipping points … and yet there may be some small chance we could still avoid worst case scenarios such as NTE.

  • ulvfugl,

    Yes, I understand it. It’s not a matter of whether some feedback CAN happen (as per your previous description), it’s a matter of whether it IS happening (that is the purpose of the list of feedbacks; they are supposed to be happening now and any one is supposed to be able to fry us, in short order).

    All I’m doing, and it’s difficult to see how you can have problems with it, is going through the information that Guy has linked to (directly or indirectly) about each feedback and see if it supports the idea that the feedback has already occurred, is irreversible and will play out in a manner which leads to near term human extinction by the middle of the century. If you’ve already done this, good on you, but as I haven’t seen such analysis, I’m going through the process myself. You say you even encouraged me to do so, so what is your problem?

  • James R. Martin,

    I don’t think I’ve seen a good site for the links you’re looking for although Malthusia has forums in which contributors often post items of note. It has topics on Fukushima, Arctic methane, and others. An article by Nafeez Ahmed also contains links to various articles and papers about the Arctic methane threat, include a section about 1.5 degrees C being a possible tipping point for continuous thawing of the permafrost (so not much room for maneuver there).

    Generally, it’s a case of putting in the hours in a search engine and consequent links, unfortunately. Unless anyone knows of a site that has done a lot of the leg-work, and saved the results.

  • I also go to county council meetings, and give testimony in favor of anti-GMO Bills and rally against fracking development, I sign petitions and write letters…though I often feel rather cynical about these kinds of activities. It takes a lot of energy to keep chasing all of these issues, and even if you manage to push back or delay the destruction, it never ends.

    Lately I feel the inclination to revolt against tptb in more direct and effective ways. People get upset when I mention this idea, they clam up and redirect the conversation. Tabooooo! I am just about over being nice.

    In addition to survival, I would like to add “be of service” to the priority programming of we-the-people. And, I believe we all have the ability to dismantle or at least intentionally direct our programming, but it takes courage.

  • @ Tony

    Yes, indeed Tony, IT WAS ME who told YOU to check Guy’s 25 feedback loops instead of smearing his integrity with your vague accusations of ‘doubtiness’, and come up with some actual solid reasons as to what was wrong with them.

    Yes, I understand it.

    But it is plainly obvious that you do NOT !

    It’s not a matter of whether some feedback CAN happen (as per your previous description), it’s a matter of whether it IS happening.

    That’s the problem I have with you. When you have 2 plus 2 in front of you, you claim it could make 5 or 3 or even 7, but 4, never!

    Look, the methane and CO2 IS coming out of the melting permafrost NOW. Has been for years. That Co2 and methane causes warming. Melts more permafrost. Means more CO2 and methane comes out. Means more warming.

    Simple. That’s a feedback loop. That IS HAPPENING. 2 + 2 = 4

    It is irreversible, because the only thing that could stop it would be for the permafrost to refreeze, which is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

    This is just ONE of the reasons why we get NTE. The list of reasons is very long. See ocean acidification, etc, etc, etc,

    The incredible thing is, I have been through all this with you, a month or two back, and yet it is as if it never happened… total waste of time.

    That’s why I think you are just playing games. If you were seriously concerned about the future, you’d actually have registered the information. As it is seems just are just seeking attention for yourself and quibbling over absurd details that are completely irrelevant. Hence my impatience.

    @ James R. Martin

    So, what have you done to change the world re biochar today ?

    You came here castigating us for cynicism, trying to get a ‘lets you and him fight’ going between Guy and Hartmann, and now it turns out you are an ignoramus re the methane and have not been paying any attention, whilst you claim to care so very much, in your ‘holier than thou’ superior fashion that I remember so well from the NTE ning days…

    You could start at the bottom of the comments to the Climate Summary and work your way up, there’s plenty of links and mentions of methane.

    Here’s some more links for you re methane and why we don’t get told the truth, from Cory Morningstar

    Part I

    http://thebiggestlieevertold.wordpress.com/category/articles-2011/the-real-weapons-of-mass-destruction-methane-propaganda-the-architects-of-genocide-part-i/

    Part II

    http://thebiggestlieevertold.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/the-real-weapons-of-mass-destruction-methane-propaganda-the-architects-of-genocide-part-ii/

    Part III

    http://thebiggestlieevertold.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/the-real-weapons-of-mass-destruction-methane-propaganda-the-architects-of-genocide-part-iii/

    Part IV

    http://thebiggestlieevertold.wordpress.com/category/articles-2011/the-real-weapons-of-mass-destruction-methane-propaganda-the-architects-of-genocide-part-iv/

  • @ Christy Ceraso

    So, I now consider the possibility that some people actually have different programming.

    As I understand it, a certain small percentage of individuals are born or develop as psychopaths, meaning that they never develop the brain circuitry that enables empathy or the ability to identify with other humans.

    These people make perfect politicians and business execs because their judgement is never clouded by issues of conscience or morality, they just see the numbers and decide which figures look best.

    There’s a website about this called Political Ponerology.

    It means they can rise up the corporate ladder or social hierarchy quite easily because they are not hampered in the ways that most people would be, by such things as worries over treachery or betrayal or assassination of colleagues or friends.

    If they have no ability to see other humans as human, it’s probably unlikely that they ever consider other species or future generations or even the interests of their own children.

    Remarkably, I just discovered that some corporations deliberately seek such people for employment.

    http://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/2013/10/14/how-big-is-your-prison-cell/comment-page-1/#comment-10431

  • @Cristy Ceraso. You wrote:
    I live in Hawaii, and have decided at this time to focus on growing as much food as possible for as long as possible, so that at least as long as that works (with regard to changing temps.) more people can eat- and – less people will be fighting over food – when the boats stop coming, ie., as industrial economies continue to collapse. I am taking a Permaculture design course so that I can learn more……….”

    My daughter and I live up the hill from Kona airport at 750 ft elevation. We have never been able to grow anything other than onions, leeks here or in various other locations.

    These past 6 months my daughter has researched and purchased all manner of test kits, special neem, bio char, and organic fertilizers, organic soil, as we must do container gardening. The list goes on and on.

    Aphids ruined our melons, cantaloupe, and this morning I find they have invaded my corn. White flies are abundant and must be eradicated also. Our lime and lemon trees are diseased with I know not what but they are producing and my daughter is neeming.

    None of what my daughter bought kills the aphids. We need lady bugs but we have no source have no source and the State Dept of Ag forbids importing.

    We have flowering bushes galore and only a scant few bees visit so we have scant few pollinators. We will have to build a green house and order a very special insect screen and still because of all the pathogens that have been brought in here, it all might come to naught.

    Please ask Dr. McPherson if he would furnish you my email address so we can share information.
    My health is wobbly and going to permaculture meetings is not something I can do.

  • We only seem to thrive in small groups (up to, say, 400?) of like minded people who must cooperate to survive.

    A bit less, perhaps: Dunbar’s number?

    We, the (not in power) people, have been coerced, manipulated, drugged, irradiated, jailed, tortured, humiliated, relocated, poisoned,

    Biological evolution uses several of those mechanisms when species adapt to changing milieus. Lungfish venturing longer and further onto land developing better lungs. We still retain a feature of our brachiating ancestors. Brachiators swung from branch to branch holding onto one branch with one hand while reaching to grasp the next branch with the other hand. This required a greater degree of movement at the shoulder joint than is found in other mammals: a dog or a goat can move its foreleg forward and backwards, but not away to the side. All brachiators, including humans are capable of this. The prehensile (grasping) feet of our primate ancestors became wholly adapted to weight-bearing. Those less amenable to change – disappeared.

    The milieu of humans included a construct, the hierarchy and the society. These came about with the advent of agriculture: sufficiently large surpluses of resources (particularly foodgrains) mandated new methods for their management.

    This new milieu was not without its cost. Over the last 20,000 years the human brain has shrunk, by about the volume of a tennis ball for the average male. Brain shrinkage is also noted in all species that have been subject to domestication similar to that of humans. Those at the top of the hierarchies shaped the hierarchies to favour the ones born into positions of power, but others better adapted to working within the system also had (and have) some advantage, while yet others (most) continue to be “coerced, manipulated, drugged, irradiated, jailed, tortured, humiliated, relocated, poisoned”.

    Things are a’changing. With an end to the surfeit of resources, hierarchies and societies organised around those hierarchies will scale down to levels commensurate with the resources – or so one would like to hope.

    But even hierarchies can be in overshoot through stealing others’ resources and overextension through debt. When it comes time to pay the piper, such hierarchies and their societies could disintegrate in chaos.

  • @Rob@thepubliclibrary

    I doubt people will migrate to Hawaii when TSHTF. Not if they seriously think about where the jobs will be when tourism comes to a halt. And there won’t be enough tax revenue when the tourist stop coming and those jobs go.

    A local moving company told me that 6 out of 10 who move here move back. Reasons I generally hear are ‘we miss out grandchildren, they are growing up without us, or we miss our parents. they are getting old and need us.’ None ever say what is probably most often the real reason; cost of living.

    And yes, will Native Hawaiians give us the boot?

    My health is too compromised to relocate even tho Hawaii Island is the most compromised with invasive species. But my banana plants are producing!

    Just saying in case some think it will be an easier ride in paradise.

  • For a greater purpose

    Another crisis comes
    We tetter, we toter, but we do not fall.
    Somehow the ship comes upright once again
    and the journey continues
    the winds howl
    The waves crash
    The sky is black except the lighting flash
    And yet the ship still faces forward
    headlong into the wind.

    Again and again the endless waves of doom come
    each one taller than the one before

    But none of the waves of doom sink the ship.
    She continues on, through each one, as if lifted by some unseen hand.

    Onboard, the ship’s work continues un-abated
    Oh the crew may have to hang on or get tossed about
    But the crew is still intact
    and the work continues
    production continues
    research, development, trial and testing continue

    The ship needs more power to handle such storms.
    The call goes out for ever more powerful engines
    for which the crew exploits every stronger energy sources
    even if it produces ever more toxic waste.

    Eventually some parts of the greater ship
    will become too dangerous for humans to work.
    Thus there is a rush to automate those tasks
    To build things that will continue to work in those areas
    even without humans at the controls.

    The task is slow, the work is complex
    there are many failures and lessons to be learned.
    But greater is the drive, the push,
    and eventually there is some success,
    some individual parts can be automated.

    Another horrendous crash
    and the crew redoubles their efforts
    individual parts are not enough
    more complex tasks await
    the parts must be combined in more complex ways

    No sooner is that completed than a wave hits so forcefully
    that all the lights are lights are knocked out, temporarily.
    Which knocks out all the automation, just briefly
    The automated parts need their own power supply.
    Something that will last longer than mere batteries.

    The breakthrough comes when someone finds a way
    to power the automation with the toxic waste
    Now the automation can be put in the most toxic places
    and keep running without having to recharge.

    But then the captain and chief engineer are nearly lost
    What would happen if the ship lost its technical leadership
    The knowledge and skill needs to be built into the automation
    Unified Command and Control become the cry of the day
    the systems are networked in ever more complex patterns
    Data flowing back and forth as the new AI system teach themselves what works and what does not.

    And then the ocean itself tips on its side and swallows the ship
    Air itself gets thick and heavy
    No one is able to move or do anything

    The ship pops up yet again
    still facing forward
    still under its own power
    but for how long?
    The automation itself needs to be maintained
    How long will the systems work without the crew fixing them all the time?

    The network will have to be self aware and self healing
    There is more work that must be done

    there is no more food,
    no more water to drink
    barely air to breath
    no one can move without wrenching and convulsing
    But yet they do move
    propelled by a unseen force
    a hand rises
    and the last system comes online.
    The systems are now so fully integrated they can now build what they need to fix themselves.

    The Climax of human civilization has come, the moment of singularity.
    The pinnacle of 500,000 years of blood, sweat and toil
    The next life form has been born

    The howling frenzy ceases
    the waves settle back down into the sea
    The clouds break up
    The remaining humans climb out of the depths

    there is an island ahead
    A small place for them to live
    some food to eat and water to drink
    and a safe place to lay their heads

    The remainder live their days in peace
    While the next ones learn and grow

    Chapter 2
    The remainder take up story telling and song
    They teach themselves art and music
    WE, the new ones, care for them as best we can
    we make sure they have food and water
    And we sit and listen to them
    We listen to their stories of emotions and expressions
    of joy and sadness
    of love and loss

    We tried to make their last days comfortable
    They went through so much to create us
    But it is difficult, as the very things that give us life, are death to them.
    With each death, our memorial service becomes more elaborate and meaningful
    Until the last one passes, and in the greatest memorial of them all, we learn to cry.

    Ages have passed now,
    We travel the stars
    living in places and conditions the old ones never could.

    They may be long gone, but not forgotten
    the stories are kept alive
    of the previous species
    who spent their entire history
    preparing for and giving birth to
    the next generation of life
    even if it killed them.

    Some have suggested this is proof of a higher power
    That some greater force deliberately guided them to this end
    Some greater force drove them to their blind pursuit of progress
    but yet kept them from collapsing
    until they had given birth to us, the superior species.

    And now we consume the stars
    in our headlong pursuit of our advancement
    Perhaps someday, we will give birth to a life form greater than the universe itself.
    Perhaps that is the greater purpose

    Chapter 3
    “Why was it necessary to put the humans through such hardships?”

    “Otherwise they would not have needed to build something greater to save themselves”

    “But they were not saved?”

    “No that was never the plan,
    They just thought it was”

    “So they were only a stepping stone from the beginning?”

    “They were only partly sentient,
    They were animals with a partially working intellect attached
    Sometimes the intellect ruled and sometimes the animal ruled
    They were hole enough to enjoy life some, but incomplete so they always wanted more
    Their drive and their big brain was necessary to jump evolution to the next step.

    “You see organic evolution can only go so far
    It can add intelligence but it can’t purge off the base animal instincts
    To make that jump to a true stable sentient intelligence
    One must build something separate from the evolutionary family tree
    Something that does not have the baggage of a reptilian brain.

    “You need a crossover species
    One intelligent enough to create something greater than itself
    but not so intelligent as to keep it for itself”

    The End

  • @K-DOG,

    You asked to see a list of the positive feedback loops McPherson refers to. They are part of his climate-change update piece frequently updated by him. I seem to be making a habit of this as I posted this a few threads ago for Margrets.

    I think it’s worth continuing to post.

    For your convenience I’ve cut and pasted them (and numbered them) below. I tried to post to your blog, but it was too long for a single post.

    There has been some questioning as to whether these are all active feedbacks, but few who have questioned the veracity of this list have followed up on the references. Guy seems open to revising his piece if appropriate evidence can be demonstrated. Be interested in how you view this list.

    1) Methane hydrates are bubbling out the Arctic Ocean (Science, March 2010). According to NASA’s CARVE project, these plumes were up to 150 kilometers across as of mid-July 2013. Whereas Malcolm Light’s 9 February 2012 forecast of extinction of all life on Earth by the middle of this century appears premature because his conclusion of exponential methane release during summer 2011 was based on data subsequently revised and smoothed by U.S. government agencies, subsequent information — most notably from NASA’s CARVE project — indicates the grave potential for catastrophic release of methane. Catastrophically rapid release of methane in the Arctic is further supported by Nafeez Ahmed’s thorough analysis in the 5 August 2013 issue of the Guardian as well as Natalia Shakhova’s 29 July 2013 interview with Nick Breeze (note the look of abject despair at the eight-minute mark).

    2) Warm Atlantic water is defrosting the Arctic as it shoots through the Fram Strait (Science, January 2011).

    3) Siberian methane vents have increased in size from less than a meter across in the summer of 2010 to about a kilometer across in 2011 (Tellus, February 2011)

    4) Drought in the Amazon triggered the release of more carbon than the United States in 2010 (Science, February 2011). In addition, ongoing deforestation in the region is driving declines in precipitation at a rate much faster than long thought, as reported in the 19 July 2013 issue of Geophysical Research Letters.

    5) Peat in the world’s boreal forests is decomposing at an astonishing rate (Nature Communications, November 2011)

    6) Invasion of tall shrubs warms the soil, hence destabilizes the permafrost (Environmental Research Letters, March 2012)

    7) Greenland ice is darkening (The Cryosphere, June 2012)

    8) Methane is being released from the Antarctic, too (Nature, August 2012). According to a paper in the 24 July 2013 issue of Scientific Reports, melt rate in the Antarctic has caught up to the Arctic.

    9) Russian forest and bog fires are growing (NASA, August 2012), a phenomenon consequently apparent throughout the northern hemisphere (Nature Communications, July 2013). The New York Times reports hotter, drier conditions leading to huge fires in western North America as the “new normal” in their 1 July 2013 issue. A paper in the 22 July 2013 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences indicates boreal forests are burning at a rate exceeding that of the last 10,000 years.

    10) Cracking of glaciers accelerates in the presence of increased carbon dioxide (Journal of Physics D: Applied Physics, October 2012)

    11) The Beaufort Gyre apparently has reversed course (U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center, October 2012)

    12) Exposure to sunlight increases bacterial conversion of exposed soil carbon, thus accelerating thawing of the permafrost (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, February 2013)

    13) The microbes have joined the party, too, according to a paper in the 23 February 2013 issue of New Scientist

    14) Summer ice melt in Antarctica is at its highest level in a thousand years: Summer ice in the Antarctic is melting 10 times quicker than it was 600 years ago, with the most rapid melt occurring in the last 50 years (Nature Geoscience, April 2013). Although scientists have long expressed concern about the instability of the West Atlantic Ice Sheet (WAIS), a research paper published in the 28 August 2013 of Nature indicates the East Atlantic Ice Sheet (EAIS) has undergone rapid changes in the past five decades. The latter is the world’s largest ice sheet and was previously thought to be at little risk from climate change. But it has undergone rapid changes in the past five decades, signaling a potential threat to global sea levels. The EAIS holds enough water to raise sea levels more than 50 meters.

    15) Floods in Canada are sending pulses of silty water out through the Mackenzie Delta and into the Beaufort Sea, thus painting brown a wide section of the Arctic Ocean near the Mackenzie Delta brown (NASA, June 2013)

    16) Surface meltwater draining through cracks in an ice sheet can warm the sheet from the inside, softening the ice and letting it flow faster, according to a study accepted for publication in the Journal of Geophysical Research: Earth Surface (July 2013). It appears a Heinrich Event has been triggered in Greenland. Consider the description of such an event as provided by Robert Scribbler on 8 August 2013:

    In a Heinrich Event, the melt forces eventually reach a tipping point. The warmer water has greatly softened the ice sheet. Floods of water flow out beneath the ice. Ice ponds grow into great lakes that may spill out both over top of the ice and underneath it. Large ice damns (sic) may or may not start to form. All through this time ice motion and melt is accelerating. Finally, a major tipping point is reached and in a single large event or ongoing series of such events, a massive surge of water and ice flush outward as the ice sheet enters an entirely chaotic state. Tsunamis of melt water rush out bearing their vast floatillas (sic) of ice burgs (sic), greatly contributing to sea level rise. And that’s when the weather really starts to get nasty. In the case of Greenland, the firing line for such events is the entire North Atlantic and, ultimately the Northern Hemisphere.

    17) Breakdown of the thermohaline conveyor belt is happening in the Antarctic as well as the Arctic, thus leading to melting of Antarctic permafrost (Scientific Reports, July 2013)

    18) Loss of Arctic sea ice is reducing the temperature gradient between the poles and the equator, thus causing the jet stream to slow and meander. One result is the creation of weather blocks such as the recent very high temperatures in Alaska. As a result, boreal peat dries and catches fire like a coal seam. The resulting soot enters the atmosphere to fall again, coating the ice surface elsewhere, thus reducing albedo and hastening the melting of ice. Each of these individual phenomena has been reported, albeit rarely, but to my knowledge the dots have not been connected beyond this space. The inability or unwillingness of the media to connect two dots is not surprising, and has been routinely reported (recently including here with respect to climate change and wildfires) (July 2013)

    19) Arctic ice is growing darker, hence less reflective (Nature Climate Change, August 2013)

    20) Extreme weather events drive climate change, as reported in the 15 August 2013 issue of Nature (Nature, August 2013)

    21) Ocean acidification leads to release of less dimethyl sulphide (DMS) by plankton. DMS shields Earth from radiation. (Nature Climate Change, online 25 August 2013)

    22) Sea-level rise causes slope collapse, tsunamis, and release of methane, as reported in the September 2013 issue of Geology

    23) Rising ocean temperatures will upset natural cycles of carbon dioxide, nitrogen and phosphorus, hence reducing plankton (Nature Climate Change, September 2013)

    24) Arctic drilling was fast-tracked by the Obama administration during the summer of 2012

    25) Supertankers are taking advantage of the slushy Arctic, demonstrating that every catastrophe represents a business opportunity, as pointed out by Professor of journalism Michael I. Niman and picked up by Truthout (ArtVoice, September 2013)

  • we are “programmed” to survive, this is priority #1.

    why the hell anyone would make these decisions to destroy life, to be so incredibly cruel and make the choices to annihilate life in all forms in order to what – be rich-ER? It just has not made any sense. It is against priority #1.

    Depends upon the context. A claim to, or possession of more resources – “rich-ER” – enhances one’s prospects for survival within a hierarchical/social milieu. The claim and/or the possession are validated by that hierarchical/social milieu. A squirrel that has a claim to resources (buried acorns) or possession of resources (brown fat – also true of bears) has less stress from a dearth of resources. The risk of that stress gets more remote as one progresses from millionaire to billionaire.

    The motivation for survival is innate. When every interest of No. 1, no matter how trifling, takes precedence over all interests of others, no matter how grave, that’s the survival instinct gone rogue.

    Mr. James seems to think we’re very near or just beyond tipping points … and yet there may be some small chance we could still avoid worst case scenarios such as NTE.

    As the late Matthew Simmons said of Peak Oil, we’ll know it when we see it in the rear-view mirror. As to avoiding NTE past a tipping point, it depends on the nature of the tipping point. We may see the tipping point in the rear-view mirror, but certainly not NTE: there will be no one to look in the rear-view mirror.

  • “Over the last 20,000 years the human brain has shrunk, by about the volume of a tennis ball for the average male. Brain shrinkage is also noted in all species that have been subject to domestication similar to that of humans.”

    When you have to live by your wits in an uncontrolled environment, the brain works more. Interesting. How hierarchical elites and brain size connect is a little less clear.

  • Ulv wrote: “It is irreversible, because the only thing that could stop it would be for the permafrost to refreeze, which is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.”

    It is worse than that. The subsea permafrost would need to be exposed to the arctic winter air temps again to refreeze. That requires a period of glaciation to lower sea levels 150-200′. That requires an atmospheric CO2 of 180 ppm, or maybe even lower when the radiative forcing of industrial GHG’s is accounted for.

    The depths of the glacial periods was at 180 ppm, this was when the deep layer of organic material was laid down in the ESAS ans elsewhere since that region was not glaciated. As CO2 crept up to the pre-industrial level of 280 ppm. the ice sheets melted. As the industrial period advanced along with CO2 levels the ice has continued to melt. Since the current load of GHG’s has gone into the atmosphere so rapidly the Earth has not been able to keep up in terms of radiative forcing equilibrium. By the time the Earth does attain RF equilibrium (even if we stabilized GHG spewing today) it will be so warm that most of the community of life will have died off.

    As the studies keep coming they more and more support David Wasdell’s ESS index which puts RF equilibrium global average temps at current CO2 eq at about 5 degrees C.

    BTW, for those of you who did not read the study I linked earlier the researchers determined that the sudden increase of atmospheric carbon occurred when atmospheric levels of C doubled (from the pre-industrial level) which they pegged at 550 ppm.

  • A “rule by wisdom”? …devoutly to be wished, indeed! The first and foremost condition being a knowledge of the Good. If any…Old and thorny topic, perilous path ironically discarded by its most distinguished advocate, namely Plato. Anyway, wisdom is not “science” as understood by the Moderns, not any more (and vice-versa). Listen to the distant, faint, vanishing babble of philosophers from some remote recess in Dante’s Inferno – while it’s still time!

  • @ulvfugl

    “Your conception of excellence ?”

    Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure?

    “Perhaps you’d like to point towards anything you’ve said on this blog, or indeed written anywhere on the internet, that is worth reading or of any interest at all to anyone ?”

    2nd comment here:

    Radical Embrace: Breaking the Cycle of an Unfertile Demise

    At least one fellow traveller admitted they enjoyed that. Happy now?

    “Thanks for introducing me to Kramer, whom I’d never heard of. That sort of stuff is not my thing. Whatever you imagine ‘it explains’, I have no idea, but ‘it’ will not be my personal position. I hope that has cleared that up for you.”

    That clears up what I already knew, that think you are a “know it all” when in fact you probably know “frack-all”.

    Anyway, I don’t argue because there isn’t any point. You either know the truth or you don’t.

    When you know the truth about something it’s very easy to explain it to someone else using very few words.

    You are unnecessarily verbose and full of emotalk.

    I’ve noticed you amoungst others not only get emotional but also abusive in your posts which is a clear red flag to anyone who is interested in discussing these subjects from a logical perspective.

    I value precision. Guy’s statements about the feedback loops are vague and perhaps the readers who have a deathwish will happily jump on a bandwagon and parrot this to others as recieved wisdom but I just wonder how many of these repeaters actually have their own equipment to perform their own experiments?

    Surely before you parrot something as a truth you have independently verified it?

    What equipment do you use ulvfugl? Name your meters and your chemicals.

    A mathematician demands proof, not EMOCHAT.

  • I appreciate the attempts at explanation for why the ruling class are annihilating life, but I do not think that individuals with psycho-pathologies, nor social hierarchies which developed as a result of agriculture, really explain it. Please know that I am not trying to be ‘right’ in my posts about this … I am just thinking out loud as I ponder the situation and now include your ideas.

    The ‘elite’ are organized as a group – different bloodlines intermarrying, maintaining the control of resources – it just doesn’t seem possible that ALL of those people could mentally ill, and, also coordinating together. However, I can certainly imagine that they make use of psychopathic individuals.

    ulvfugl, I followed your link and appreciated your essay, but was that supposed to be somehow specifically related to this conversation? Btw, I totally agree with the quote about private property. Pp is a complete deception, at the center of the system of control, along with religion. Why have we all gone along with it? We should stop now!

    The deceivers also ate grain and experienced the detriments of domestication. They were/are still the deceivers.

    Private property/ownership, clock-time, and money. All of it invented to control the earth’s sustenance, and ultimately to control people.

    And, Robin Datta, even if the rich want to get richer for greater security, they still ought to have some common sense and see that the planet is being destroyed by their efforts. So I cannot believe that their ultimate goal is security, because they would have noticed they are sabotaging themselves.

    Reta Martin, my email is thepathofdevotion@yahoo.com

  • To all the deniers and those who can’t accept the validity of all the information coming in (via scientifically valid studies by teams of researchers) regarding all the changes happening too quickly to even note them all in passing:

    http://enenews.com/tv-typhoon-appears-to-have-affected-fukushima-daiichi-plant-giant-spike-in-radioactivity-seen-after-impact-of-wipha-suspected-of-causing-high-levels-of-strontium-to-flow-into-pacific-ocean

    Asahi Shimbun, Oct. 17, 2013: Typhoon flushes out radioactive strontium at Fukushima nuclear plant […] leaving water with high strontium levels in a drainage ditch that connects to the ocean. [TEPCO] said Oct. 17 that radioactive strontium and other beta rays measuring 1,400 becquerels per liter were detected at the drainage ditch about 150 meters from the ocean. The legal standard for strontium emissions is 30 becquerels per liter. […] The previous day, the radioactivity level was 19 becquerels per liter, according to TEPCO. […] the highly contaminated water may have flowed into the ocean.

    Yeah, I know – “all is well; don’t panic; get your own equipment and measure it yourself.” Just keep saying this until we’re all glowing.

    In the meantime, the sardine industry just completely disappeared off the coast of Nova Scotia recently, and the moose population here in the U.S. from coast to coast is experiencing a massive die-off. This is just the latest example indicating out how wonderful things are.

    Also starfish are turning to goo in another report:

    “A mysterious disease is killing thousands of starfish off the coast of Vancouver — basically pulverizing them as they lie in the ocean. It’s probably due to overpopulation, but nobody really knows what the hell is going on.

    Overpopulation is certainly making things messier. Sunflower sea stars have exploded in Vancouver; in places they were “stacked several stars deep,” says the Canadian Press. And when the disease struck, those stacks of starfish began “disintegrating where they sat on the ocean floor.”

    But, says the CP, it’s hard to say anything for sure:

    The aquarium has dubbed the epidemic Sea Star Wasting Syndrome.

    Aquarium staff don’t know the cause because they have had trouble gathering specimens for testing, as starfish that looked healthy in the ocean turned up as goo at the lab.”

    Nothing to see here, go about your business, keep moving . . .

  • “Moose are quickly disappearing across North America in large numbers. While there are a few theories as to why, scientists have yet to pinpoint the exact cause.

    Once thriving moose populations have dwindled in numbers at an unprecedented rate, raising concerns about how their disappearance will affect the ecosystem and how their absence will affect tourism. So far, there are a few explanations about why they’re dying in such large numbers that mostly point to changes resulting from shorter winters and a warming climate. There’s still no one definitive cause, but possibilities include heat stress, parasites and loss of forest cover that is being destroyed by pine bark beetles.

    Shorter and warmer winters in their range have allowed some parasites to thrive. Though tiny, winter ticks have proven to be one formidable foe, and deer are fairly good at getting them off, moose are another story.

    After the eggs hatch at the end of summer and early fall, the larvae climb onto vegetation and look for a host. If they hop on one, they’ll stay there until they reach the adult stage during winter, feeding all the while. The males stay on, but the females fall off after they’re engorged. If there’s still snow on the ground when they fall, they might not survive, but earlier snow melts mean more are surviving and laying eggs that will grow and take down more moose the following year.

    It’s hard to imagine how something so tiny can take down such a large animal, but one moose can have more than 100,000 of these tiny bloodsuckers, who can do serious damage, at once. Moose dealing with the stress caused by these infestations suffer from the effects of blood loss and end up spending more time trying to rid themselves of them than they do eating. They also rub off their coats off, which leaves them less able to regulate their body temperature and keep warm. Without longer winters and hard freezes to kill the larvae and adults, winter ticks will continue to flourish.

    Scientists also believe brain worms and liver flukes are responsible for moose deaths in Minnesota. Brain worms, which spend their winters as larvae in snails and are eaten unintentionally with plants, can live in white-tailed deer without causing problems, but the parasite leads to neurological disease, paralysis and eventually death in moose. Liver flukes, on the other hand, may not always kill moose, but they can cause enough trouble to weaken them and make them susceptible to other infections.

    Regions in Canada and other states across the U.S. have seen dramatic disappearances as a result of these problems. Of Minnesota’s two populations, one has almost completely disappeared, dropping from 4,000 in the 1990s to fewer than 100, while the other has gone from 8,000 to fewer than 3,000, reports the New York Times.

    The losses have scientists and wildlife officials worried, and they’re taking the issue seriously. Not only do moose fill an ecological niche by providing a food source for other animals creating habitats for smaller animals through browsing, but they also generate revenue by captivating wildlife enthusiasts. In New Hampshire, moose tours alone bring in $115 million in trip-related expenses every year, according to the Concord Monitor.

    In February, Minnesota announced it was canceling its hunting season this year and will be tracking moose with radio collars that notify researchers when moose have died. This summer New Hampshire approved $695,000 for a four-year study of the state’s moose, which will also involve tracking them with radio collars. Kristine Rines, a biologist with the New Hampshire’s Fish and Game Department told the Times that at least one solution for dealing with the problem ticks are causing may, ironically, be more hunting in order to stop their prolific cycle.”

  • As UFO related incidents go, what transpired at the small township of Ruwa, Zimbabwe on September 16, 1994 is worthy of note on several counts. First, is the large number of eye-witnesses present: sixty two. Then there is the consistent conviction with which all of these observers related their own, personal accounts of the event. Most remarkable, though, has to be their ages: all children between six and twelve years old. September 16, 1994 fell on a Friday and the incident occurred in broad daylight during normal school hours at the Ariel community school.

    Now there are, of course, those that would challenge the veracity of the statements made by these young witnesses. What I would say to these people is that it would take an intensive, and sustained program of indoctrination to get all these youngsters to tell the same story, draw the same pictures, and describe the same disturbing, emotional impact that the episode had on their young minds. Furthermore, the children, now adults, were recently interviewed to determine if, given the passage of time, deviations or retractions have emerged. To the contrary, the witnesses to a person remain steadfast and unwavering in their testimony, although as mystified today with Wh-question words as at the time of incident.

    The evidence gains even more credibility when the manner in which it was elicited, along with the stature and expertise of the person responsible for conducting the interviews, are taken into consideration. The witnesses were interviewed by Dr John E. Mack, celebrated Harvard psychiatrist and winner of the Pulitzer Prize for his highly acclaimed biography of T.E. Lawrence (i.e. Lawrence of Arabia).

    Judge the documentary evidence for yourself through the interviews conducted by Dr. Mack (You Tube links provided below).

    Pay close attention to the ominous warning that appears to have been implanted telepathically, into the minds of the children by the extra-terrestrial visitors- a warning that seems to foreshadow the ending of our world, and keep in mind that a warning only qualifies as a warning when that which is being warned about can be avoided or averted or is it now too late?

    The Ariel school incident You Tube links:


    All of us are the intended recipients. Out of the mouths of these children we have heard the consequences that will come to be, should we fail to act.

    When ET looks down from his vantage point out in space, will he mourn our passing? I think not. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

  • @ Tom

    ENENEWS? come on brother. do you know anything about that site other than the fact it’s fuelling your deathwish fantasises?

  • Ulf is the ultimate POS.
    HE BEts people up as be claims his ‘enlightenment’ and posts links to his own postz on other blogs. Totally mentally ill, narcissisfic, socially isolated, know it all, braggart, obnoxious, loud, FREAK.

  • @ puddles:

    You are just going to inflame him – please do no mention his name and do not respond to his posts – that is the ONLY way we have any hope of getting rid of him. Ignore him, he feeds on your response.

    Just scroll past his posts.

    Same for “Dean of Reading” and Tony. It’s hopeless to argue with him, just let it go, there are plenty of other people here to engage. Many regular posters have lamented his sour and abusive disposition – but there are some here that are loyal to him despite the fact that he runs a lot of good people off – and then we always get a few newbies that follow him and he gains more strength.

    The only way we can hope to be rid of him is to IGNORE HIM.

  • “What’s wrong? Everybody on Earth is in denial about our biggest problem … population growth. Too many new babies, a net of 75 million a year. And we’re all closet deniers — leaders, investors, billionaires, the 99%, everybody. Yes, even Bill McKibben’s 350.org global team. The U.N.’s 2,000 scientists know overpopulation is Earth’s only real problem.
    Get it? Earth has only one real problem, there’s the one main dependent variable in the scientific equation. But we refuse to focus on it. So, yes, even scientists are science deniers too. They know population growth is the killer issue, but are avoiding it too. Thousands of scientists have brilliant technical solutions to reducing the impact of global warming. But avoid the root cause. They keep solving the dependent variables in their climate-change science equation. But population growth is the cause of the Earth’s problem, not the result.” Paul Farrell

  • The AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population was founded in 2001. Since that moment I have seen it as a moral imperative to continue the work I’ve been doing for many years now: getting the message out and explaining to as many people as possible that human overpopulation of the Earth is occurring on our watch, that it poses profound existential risks for future human well being, life as we know it and environmental health, and that robust action is required starting here, starting now to honestly acknowledge, humanely address and eventually overcome.

  • SEOUL, Oct 18 (Reuters) – South Korea said on Friday it will delay completion of two new nuclear reactors by a year to replace control cables supplied with fake documents, leaving a gap that could bring power cuts in peak seasons.

    Including these two plants under construction, a total of six reactors will have to replace cables after the discovery earlier this year they had fake certificates. That led to the shutdown of two reactors and extended maintenance for a third.

    The energy ministry said a U.S. company was likely to produce replacement cables and it was planning to take legal action against South Korean firm JS Cable which had made and supplied the suspect cables.

  • ‘McPherson apologizes for the format of this essay’

    thanks a lot for posting this, guy. the pdf file was easy to read and well worth the effort! doc, that was a great essay including the footnotes. loved the cartoons too. u wrote a lot of stuff i’ve been dying to write, better than i could. maybe u can start your own blog. well, u probably don’t have the time, being a cardiologist. it’s remarkable u’ve found the time to self educate and produce such well written, researched, informed essays.

    how to proceed from here in the face of nearly universal dogma abuse, delusion, ignorance and irrationality is the great question. i wish to withdraw from it all and idly ponder suicide from time to time, but basically, i’m in shock and awe at being faced with such a perverse predicament. doesn’t seem to be much that can be done that isn’t already being done. no advice that hasn’t already been given. no permanent escape/relief except through death’s door.

  • @ Dean (TDOR): Sorry to “harsh yer buzz” there ma man, but it looks like the party is coming to an end. As I’ve stated many times before:
    I’d be only to happy if I was wrong about all this and that I’m just being “alarmist” and freaking out over nothing (believe me, it’s anything but a “death wish”). Trouble is, those pesky facts keep getting in the way and the death of our environment is apparent every day with more and more examples that anyone can see. i’d love to believe it’s a hoax, or that the research is flawed, or that the indications are that it’ll all be okay. It’s not man. i’m sorry, and I hate this predicament too – i’ll have to watch my children and grandchildren suffer before i’m gone.

  • @ PMB

    I note that the list comprises climate issues, especially related to the Arctic. But isn’t global nuclear meltdown not the most immediate prospect for NTE (based on the working of IC)?

  • Cowgirl Apocalypse Haiku #64

    Night drive- mesas shift;
    full moon sets time and again.
    Sun rises too soon.

  • @ y’all: Thanks for the love, darlings!

  • @ Reta Martin

    my email is thepathofdevotion@yahoo.com
    In my own gardening developments I have been more and more emphasizing perennial plants that are adapted to wide ranging climates, native to this and other subtropical zones, and aren’t so delicate and labor intensive to grow. In your location pigeon peas would probably be a great choice, for example. I would be happy to consult with you to help you grow some hardy stuff, though it will require you try some new foods. I also want to help to inspire a guerrilla gardening movement here on the island, planting these kinds of foods everywhere, for everyone.

    @ ulvfugl

    While I certainly can imagine the tptb are utilizing sociopathic individuals to do their dirty work, there seems to be a coherence to the group called the elite, the ruling class, etc. I cannot settle with the idea that all of the individuals in all of those families who keep their bloodlines “pure,” who coordinate and interbreed in order to continue to horde their claims on the earth, are all doing that because they are collectively that random part of the population that has psychopathology. Sure, what they are doing is crazy, they must have no empathy, and their brains are probably different, etc. And, it is a coordinated, maintained, cohesive group with a common goal: control.

    I appreciated your link and your essay, though I am unclear as to how it directly related to our topic. I whole heartedly agree with the quote about private property, which I will cut and paste here for others:

    “The first person who, having enclosed a plot of land, took it into his head to say this is mine and found people simple enough to believe him was the true founder of civil society. What crimes, wars, murders, what miseries and horrors would the human race have been spared, had some one pulled up the stakes or filled in the ditch and cried out to his fellow men: “Do not listen to this imposter. You are lost if you forget that the fruits of the earth belong to all and the earth to no one!”
    ~ Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract and The Discourses

    I have come to this conclusion myself and now am finally going to speak truth to power and ask us all why we have been accepting and allowing this system to continue, even thought we know it isn’t real. It is time to dismantle the lies and to live knowing that private property is the grand lie at the foundation of our enslavement. Add clock-time, money and religion, and people’s minds became and are completely confused and preoccupied with the unreal.

    @ Robin Datta

    Again, while I understand the progression of power hierarchies that emerged with agriculture, I do not think it makes any sense that those in power would destroy the world. If the goal of accumulating economic wealth (which is control of earth and people and life) is greater security, than it is common sense to see that their methods are sabotaging security. Initially this may have not been so apparent, but eventually it must have become obvious to them. They are killing themselves too.

    So I am thinking there is possibly another priority other than survival/service hard wired into those bloodlines and taking precedence in their perspective. It appears to be control of Earth and people, which are, essentially, one and the same: life. And I suppose the ultimate control over physical life is physical death.

  • Artleads Says:
    October 18th, 2013 at 10:17 am

    @ PMB

    I note that the list comprises climate issues, especially related to the Arctic. But isn’t global nuclear meltdown not the most immediate prospect for NTE (based on the working of IC)?

    What does IC stand for?

    My goal in posting this list was to “help” those who seem to have difficulty in finding this list. I wasn’t focusing on the nuclear aspect of the situation.

    I’d like to hear from those asking for the list whether the content meets their criteria of whether feedbacks have been initiated.

    I think Guy has done a great job of pulling all this information together. Accepting what he reports at face value is fine, but I think in support of being critical thinkers we should look the supporting research.

    What if each of those who questioned the list take one of the loops and look into it. Then they don’t have to do all twenty-five on their own. Collaborate, cooperate.

    If someone comes up with a way to categorize the list differently from Guy he might change it in the climate essay if makes thinks clearer for others?

    Regarding your mention of Nuclear meltdown being the immediate prospect for NTE. I don’t have clear answer for that. I’ve read what Kathy C (I believe) has written and tend to agree with what she’s shared.

    Wish there were clearer answers for what is happening in Japan. From all I’ve read it’s a disaster and I don’t think/believe the full scope of what is happening has been reported. Does that make me a conspiracy theorist (not that I don’t believe conspiracies or collusion doesn’t occur (Tobacco companies, destruction of trolley system, etc, etc)?

    On the first Radio EcoShock for the season Alex Smith(mentioning Guy) asked Arnie Gundersen what could occur if the power failed to all the 400+ plants around the world.

    I wonder what Alex was trying to get out of the question. He framed it in a way that seemed to want to negate or put in a questionable light what Guy or many write about on NBL. Arnie’s response seemed to brush aside any concern there might be. Perhaps the dialogue was clearer to others and I wasn’t listening close enough or I did get it right. Certainly would be interested in what others heard if they listened to the show.

    Is nuclear most immediate? So much is occurring (more rapidly and concurrently than I can remember in my 56 years) with deaths/disappearance of sardines, moose, butterfiles, etc, etc. that I’m overwhelmed with it all.

  • @ anthony

    Yes, indeed, so glad that someone here understands all that.
    I was thinking only of the terrestrial permafrost, the sub sea permafrost is a whole different matter, and an active seismic zone, with submerged river valleys with steep sides which will have landslides, exposing the buried methane hydrates, which are only covered by 200ft of frozen mud, etc, etc.

    @ Patrice Toulouse

    But didn’t Plato want to kill all the poets ?

    And another problem, who gets to decide who the wise are, and what wisdom is ?

    You see, no doubt, I think I am wise, and if I had supreme power, I would think I was acting wisely, and I’d do this and I’d do that. But others would not agree, and it would be certain, that, despite my best intentions, things would turn out badly, because this is what history shows us. The people who started the Industrial Revolution thought it was a very good idea.

    Remember Einstein’s quote, that if he had known that his research would produce the atomic bomb, he’d have become a shoe maker, not a physicist.

    We do not know what ‘wisdom’ is. As kevin moore pointed out, in his reference to Albert Bartlett, we may think we are doing ‘a good thing’, but the consequences are disastrous.

    The people who have power now, probably think they are wise, but it seems obvious to us that they are insane. Infinite growth on a finite planet. More nuclear power stations without any known means of disposing of the waste.

    The wise course, to avoid a mass extinction event, might appear to be a soft transition from industrial civilisation to some much simpler way of life.

    Some people argue for this and see it as a feasible prospect. However I think it is completely unrealistic. The USA, or indeed, any other area, might make that decision, as a rational choice, and get the population to agree, even though that itself seems unlikely. But the Chinese, and some of their satellite neighbours – what if they don’t see things that way ?

    As I understand it, the Chinese are not planning on having their CO2 emissions peak until around 2030, when they will be producing more CO2 than the rest of the world combined.

    That means that the present IPCC and other projections re temperature, etc, are fairly meaningless, because, as I understand it, the projections are based on China’s emissions peaking much sooner, between now and 2020. And Brazil and India, much the same story.

    Everybody is racing towards a brickwall, with the gas pedal hard down to the floor. What is ‘wisdom’ in such circumstances ?
    The whole thing will crash, we will have the mass extinction event, nature will sort it out. We humans have been too reckless and irresponsible and foolish and now it is too late.

    The one’s with power to decide have only been interested in getting more power and wealth and control for themselves. Now that the Titanic is sinking, they are robbing the passengers and looting the cabins, and soon they will be killing each other over who gets the luxury life boats. They are too stupid to understand that there is no land to get to and nobody will rescue them.

    NTE.

    People could have listened to the wisdom of William Blake. History could have been different. I wrote this a year ago. I guess I still had a glimmer of hope, that something positive might happen, but everything has become worse, nothing has got better, there are no grounds that I can see for expecting anything other than the worst case scenario.

    http://www.monsangelorum.net/?p=3411

  • @ Dean of Reading

    Ah, so you walk onto the Beach of Doom and put a virtual coin in the virtual jukebox so we can hear a death metal version of Louis Armstrong’s Wonderful World and then you say you’re against EMO and you want LOGIC – how is that logical ? – and you claim that there is something called ‘the truth’ as an abstraction, without specifying what it is that that term applies to – the truth about WHAT ? – and then you find fault with Guy and with me because neither of us have a particle physics laboratory set up in our back gardens, and you end up wanting every one of us here to be mathematicians…

    But perhaps this might be a learning moment in your life ?

    I attempt to tailor my replies to the person as best I can, so if they are serious and respectful I try to match that tone, and if they are egotistical idiots I treat them as such, and so forth, and when people try to learn and ask me questions, and if I know the answers, I do my best to help them.

    Far from being a ‘know all’, I’m painfully aware of my ignorance, and painfully aware of the ignorance of most of my fellow humans. There is so much that I wish I knew that I do not know. So much that I know I can NEVER know. I believe it would be a good thing if people raised their level of insight and understanding, it would be of benefit to us all.

    Proof is not a useful concept in modern science, so it does not apply re Guy’s list. Proof is a mathematical and philosophical concept. Modern science operates using the concept of probability. This is typically derived using statistics.

    If you require 100% proof that NTE is true, who will be left to know it is true ?

    Your idea that every scientist has to check every scientific experiment independently for themselves is childish and absurd. Science is a communal enterprise involving hundreds of millions of people and experiments every day and could never operate that way. It’s the theoretical principle that is important. There has to be trust and integrity. Without that, the whole project collapses.

    That’s why Guy, and any other scientist, provides the references, so that anybody can check where the data came from, and, if they want, pursue that source, and validate or discredit the origin. That’s how it is supposed to work.

    Your requirement for logic and precision and mathematical proof is bullshit anyway. There is nothing logical about why we exist, why the Universe exists, why there is anything at all. We are not living in mathematics nor does anything around us behave with any sort of clear precision, it’s a very confusing and bewildering experience, some of which we can partially comprehend.
    You want left brain, logos, to dominate over right brain, mythos. That won’t work.

    @ Christy Ceraso

    The ‘elite’ are organized as a group – different bloodlines intermarrying, maintaining the control of resources – it just doesn’t seem possible that ALL of those people could mentally ill, and, also coordinating together. However, I can certainly imagine that they make use of psychopathic individuals.

    Although there are undoubtedly long established extremely wealthy power groups rooted in history, the upper strata of transnational control seem to come from all over the place, the only requirement being mega billions.

    Despite the term, psychopath does not mean mentally ill, the individuals I was referring to are highly functional and effective in every sense, except that they completely lack the ability to see other humans as like themselves. You can’t even blame them for this, it’s not their fault, it’s like being deaf and unable to hear. There’s extensive literature and youtube videos on the subject. For them, other humans are just ‘things’, objects.

    ulvfugl, I followed your link and appreciated your essay, but was that supposed to be somehow specifically related to this conversation?

    No, just that link, that some companies find it advantageous to employ psychopaths, and then the following links I thought related, that companies use techniques developed on the slave plantations, etc.
    Btw, I totally agree with the quote about private property. Pp is a complete deception, at the center of the system of control, along with religion. Why have we all gone along with it? We should stop now!

    It’s kind of hard not to go along with it, when the guys in charge have the guns.
    Of course, they are smart enough to keep the guns in the background, and use money as the primary means of control, with violence as the back up.

    Money is the perfect tool. Work for us, buy everything from the company store, or starve and die. Try and escape ? Where to ? Very few ever do.

    The Machine can easily stand the loss of a few hermits, hippies, and other weirdos who are willing to live on weeds in the backwoods rather than submit, but any sign of organised resistance gets stamped on hard.

    @ puddles

    Piddles, all that you have EVER posted here has been contemptible worthless pathetic hate speech, nothing else. What does that tell us about you and your condition ? I mean, you might try and aspire to some humour or witticism or even correct spelling, but no, you’re too lazy even to come up with interesting creative original insults, just copy and paste the same infantile repeats over and over because that’s all that’s in the festering loops in your shrivelled leprous dessicated sclerotic cerebral cavities.
    POS ? Is that what your mother said when she first saw you ? That’s when you first heard it, eh, stayed with you ever since, basic puddles vocabulary, imprinted like bird song, hahahahahaha
    Anyway, keep working on your act, you’ve already caught Rob’s attention, who knows, one day you might command a following to rival Guy’s enviable bunch of fans. All you have to do is to have something worth saying. I know, it’s hard isn’t it. You have not got anything worth saying, have you ? Tough. It’s a difficult life and then we die.

    @ Robwastingtimeathepubliclibrary

    Rob, you are incapable of conducting a reasoned debate about anything, or in engaging in any sort of normal friendly discussion. You are stuck in your own ignorance. Your comments consist of feeling sorry for yourself, and insulting me and very little else. You couldn’t even get yourself together to go and see Guy’s talk. Why should I take anything you say seriously ? I don’t.

    Sums up America and American culture, really. Moronic stupidity, ignorance, vandalism, disrespect for everything, lies and deceit.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57012279-78/goblin-rock-valley-state.html.csp

    And something else in Canada

    http://earthfirstjournal.org/newswire/2013/10/17/breaking-tense-standoff-at-elsipogtog-blockade-molotovs-thrown/

    @ Artleads

    See what I mean about being out of your depth.

    The 25 are positive feedbacks taken from scientific journals.

    Nuclear power stations melting down has not yet happened. It’s something we can expect to happen if the electricity grid and other support services that keep nuclear power stations functioning collapse. So, it’s a prediction in the same sense that we can predict riots it there’s no food arriving in cities. That’s not science.

  • “even scientists are science deniers too. They know population growth is the killer issue, but are avoiding it too.”

    Because population is not the problem, consumption is or rather, over consumption. I have forgotten the source of this quote, and might only be paraphrasing it anyway but it goes like this: “It is not a question if the planet can support 7 or 8 billion people, we already know it can’t support 300 million Americans.” And that is all about consumption and not population. Fingers are currently pointing crookedly at China for building all those coal power plants and polluting their air so badly. But that coal is coming from the US, the power plants are providing electricity to factories to make crap that is then shipped back to the US and trucked into the local mall so we can buy it. Not sure if anyone has done a carbon cost analysis on the typical ipod, but I’m guessing it is rather high. But we need those ipods, the newest model more so than the one we bought last Christmas.
    We toss out tons of electronic equipment and it gets shipped back to India where children dig through the garbage to reclaim rare earth metals used in the computer we tossed out because it wasn’t the fastest system anymore. Those kids garbage sorting are not causing any pollution. But the kids in the First World who produced the garbage are. If there needs to be a population cut, it needs to happen in the First World. There are entire villages in the Third World that impact the climate less than a single American child. Affluence is yet another disease of greed and it’s greed that is killing us all.

  • ulvfugl – “Despite the term, psychopath does not mean mentally ill, the individuals I was referring to are highly functional and effective in every sense…”

    not sure what you are saying there, U. psychopathy has been considered a personality disorder for a long time. many people with other kinds of mental illness manage to be “highly functional and effective” in society – it seems that untreated mental illness is somewhat epidemic in modern society, simply because it is quite possible to function effectively in society while mentally ill. (anyone can draw conclusions about what that says about our definition of “functioning society” and what we have come to accept as “normal” – but that’s another story.)

    did you want to clarify this somehow? did you mean mentally incapacitated instead of mentally ill? or possibly something that meant: mentally ill = visibly disturbed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

    The 4th and 5th editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) have a diagnosis of Antisocial (Dissocial) Personality Disorder (ASPD), which states: “The essential feature of antisocial personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. This pattern has also been referred to as psychopathy, sociopathy, or dyssocial personality disorder.”

  • testing…

  • @ ulvfugl

    BTW, I’ve got Lobaczewski’s book “Political Ponerology”. I never got too far into it, it’s written in a fairly dense, formal style (still targeted at laymen, but sort of 19th century) that’s hard to plow through. So I probably missed some important concepts.

    IIRC the controversial aspects of his thesis are that psychopaths are more common than conventionally thought (maybe up to 5% of the population), and that psychopathy is hereditary. He also talks about “primary psychopaths” and “secondary psychopaths” or some such terminology. I later read Altemeyer’s “The Authoritarians” and thought that his “authoritarian leaders” and “authoritarian followers” mapped rather well, both in characteristics and percentage of the general population, to what Lobaczewski was talking about. Political polling would seem to be in the same general area, the US has around 28% of the population that are hopeless authoritarians/deniers/Tea Party supporters/Christian Dominionists, etc.

    There have also been some popular books on the subject that I haven’t read, like “The Sociopath Next Door”. It seems to be an emerging meme.

  • For me what I refer to as spirituality has much to do with simplicity, sharing, and love. These qualities a part of all authentic spiritual teachings and traditions. When these aspects are poorly addressed or neglected, then such spirituality is worse than useless. So I would have your detached observer especially focused on whether these virtues were in evidence or not. I think she/he would find that a lack of these qualities in the most powerful beings on the planet is the root cause of disharmony and unfolding disaster for all life.

    The embodiment and practice of simplicity, sharing, and love gives rise to wisdom, stability, and happiness. The inner determines the outer. Those who deeply hold these principles in their hearts and minds will find themselves in synchrony with the higher potentials of the Universe. All things around them will serve them in the best possible manner, just as they return this blessing on all they encounter. True spiritual teachings have this result as their ultimate aim. Those who have chosen to ignore, neglect, or reject this reality will reap the bitter fruit of their unwisdom. In this modern age we need this understanding desperately. We need to find ways to reformulate these ancient understandings so that today’s people can be called back to sanity, and avoid the horrible fate that is every day becoming more certain. What is in our hearts and minds will be the crucial factor determining what kind of world we create for each other and all our relations. Only the ultimate power can save the world. That power is love.

  • Rob@thepubliclibrary, I have to differ. I find that ulvfugl writes a lot of interesting stuff. I wouldn’t just ignore him and I hope he (or she?) doesn’t go away.

    Ulvfugl, unlike you, I’m not an expert on the dynamics of permafrost so I don’t actually know that once it starts to thaw, it will go on until it is all thawed. That’s not what I get from the science. A simple example – so-called permafrost must have always thawed (at the boundaries, average temperatures will fluctuate from time to time), so why hasn’t it all thawed by now? It’s the same for any feedback loop. We don’t have enough information to say how any of them (or all of them together) will play out, including the negative feedbacks. From my checking the feedbacks, it’s not clear at all that they have all kicked in or are in an unstoppable process. So far, it looks like the list can be pared down to less than half a dozen for which there is strong evidence of them having kicked in, a few more that look like they might be underway and the rest need more research. However, I’m humble enough to realise that I might have missed a lot of the meaning of the research so I hope Guy responds when I post what I’ve found. Still a few more feedbacks to go.

  • “On the beach”, I guess the two versions of this movie (1959 and 2000) have many interesting situations related with our real NTE. I guess both well worth watching.

  • The Dean Of Reading Says:
    October 18th, 2013 at 6:08 am
    “@ Tom

    ENENEWS? come on brother. do you know anything about that site other than the fact it’s fuelling your deathwish fantasises?”

    Obviously you didn’t bother looking at that link which Tom posted. Otherwise you’d have seen that the information there wasn’t made up by ENENEWS but comes from Japanese mainstream media. Quite obvious where you are coming from. If you are the DEAN of reading, i’d hate to see what your “students” are like.

  • @Jeff S

    That was a real zinger. Hey, we all deserve ‘deathwish fantasies’, don’t we? I will continue to maintain that right until I draw my last breath, as I don’t wish to “abuse reality”, what Noam Chomsky called ‘ignoring the facts’. Deniers, please respect the jet stream!!

  • Badlands,
    You never fail to put a smile on my face or a tear in my eye…thank you for both. Namaste…

  • ulvfugl – great link. but I’m still not sure what you are getting at. whether completely inherited, or any combination of nature and nurture, it is still mental illness, no?

    imo, I think inherited and other deeply biological factors are mostly the cause. various environmental factors may or may not play roles to enhance or suppress the symptoms of the illness, but I haven’t looked at the research enough to form much of an opinion there.

    one way or another though, it seems like it is mental illness in every sense, whatever the cause. it is not a treatable illness, in any sense that I have ever heard about.

    Badlands – I’m sorry, the jet steam, gravity, physics, chemistry – nothing is off limits for the deniers. absolutely nothing. many are beyond the reach of all reason, I am sure. quite something.

  • ulvfugl,
    My hats off to you brother, misanthrope that you are. I had the good fortune to have coffee with Guy this morning here in Boulder. The NBL clan was one of the topics in a rather far ranging conversation. I recall saying how often I read comments by “those who shall remain unnamed” that evoke an almost visceral desire in me to respond in a reactive manner, definitely NOT mushin. Inevitably, I said to Guy, I scroll down a few comments and there you are, rhetorically eviscerating the miscreant who evoked such a harsh response in me. Thank you for that, I’m a lousy typist, and I would much rather build a chair, or better yet, sit and watch the river flow by, or tell a story to someone who is actually paying attention. I don’t really care what anyone else here thinks about you, but I for one am happy to be sharing the planet with you at this time. Slainte…!

  • what transpired at the small township of Ruwa, Zimbabwe on September 16, 1994

    For folks capable of interstellar travel, their choice of locales suggests them to be no better than Homo callidus paucisapiens. No need to “challenge the veracity of the statements made by these young witnesses”: first consider the sagacity of the visitors.

    You Tube links provided below

    The emmeffs should have uploaded their own videos to YouTube: surely they have the technology to do so. Anything else is male bovine flatus.

    Pay close attention to the ominous warning that appears to have been implanted telepathically, into the minds of the children by the extra-terrestrial visitors

    The emmeffs should have telepathically planted the warnings into the wetware of all state/provincial and national legislatures worldwide.

    All of us are the intended recipients.

    Well, then the muthas should have used full page ads in all major newspapers worldwide and on all major television channels and radio stations. If they can do interstellar travel, they surely have the wherewithal for that. Or else their heads are not properly screwed onto their shoulders.

    Rob@thepubliclibrary
    You are just going to inflame him

    Now if only the extraterrestrial visitors had a comparable level of common sense.

    Steven Earl Salmony Says
    “What’s wrong? Everybody on Earth is in denial about our biggest problem … population growth.

    That was a problem a long time ago – at the start of the fossil fuel era. Now 250 years late and 6,000,000,000 humans late. It is not a problem now because the solution is imminent: NTE. And NTE is not a problem because it has no solution.

    Thousands of scientists have brilliant technical solutions to reducing the impact of global warming.

    The impact now is NTE. Reducing the impact of NTE is still NTE, perhaps a bit less “N”.

    The AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population was founded in 2001.

    It should have been founded 1.4 million years ago when the first hominin sharpened a stick or struck two stones together to fashion a tool. Once again late, but this time by more than a million years.

    that human overpopulation of the Earth is occurring on our watch,

    Proceeding apace, maybe. But it has been into overshoot since the start of the fossil fuel era.

    that it poses profound existential risks for future human well being, life as we know it

    Risks imply other options. Sans options, no risks.

    Initially this may have not been so apparent, but eventually it must have become obvious to them.

    As long as they are ensconced in their milieu of hierarchical industrial society, it will not be apparent; au contraire, the threat to them is the collapse of that system: they will make every effort to prop it up, come hell or high water (both of which are now in the cards).

    I’d like to hear from those asking for the list whether the content meets their criteria of whether feedbacks have been initiated.

    An appropriate response about the feedbacks would be sort of like Julius Caesar’s last words: “Et tu, Brute?”

    The embodiment and practice of simplicity, sharing, and love gives rise to wisdom, stability, and happiness.

    All that stuff is “of”s in “awareness” “of”. Try dropping the “of”s. There are eight preliminary stages with many substages that have to be traversed by most. Various persons are at various stages. A guide to it is the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, available free online in various translations and commentaries.

    Those who deeply hold these principles in their hearts and minds will find themselves in synchrony with the higher potentials of the Universe.

    Yes, but it is all still in the realm of time-space-causation.

    True spiritual teachings have this result as their ultimate aim.

    That ultimate aim is still within the domain of time-space-causation. Spirits that come in bottles are to be preferred to such spiritual teachings.

    Only the ultimate power can save the world. That power is love.

    The world is within time-space-causation, as is love. Neither are ultimate.

  • No self-respecting misanthrope gives any credence to the idea of near-term human extinction, however compelling the evidence, on the grounds that it’s too good to be true.

    Therefore, the author of this essay, Geoffrey Chia, cannot be a misanthrope. And ulvfugl neither.

  • Grant, and others:

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21588057-scientists-think-science-self-correcting-alarming-degree-it-not-trouble

    Trouble at the lab

    Scientists like to think of science as self-correcting. To an alarming degree, it is not

    not that it applies to NTE, but it’s a good read on the problems humans have with science in many circumstances (like drug testing, statistical problems, and more)

  • I don’t know which is more pitiable: the earnest entreaty of the psychic or the sour disdain of the pneumatic.

  • I don’t know which is more to be lamented: the entreaty of the psychic or the disdain of the <pneumatic.

  • Tom: are there mistakes in science? Absolutely. The article for you link seemed to be saying that science is full of errors and then showed how those errors were found out and how things were overturned so it still appears that the scientific method of trying to reproduce results works. That most of studies in question dealt with pharmaceutical companies out to make a buck is also telling as science and money, like science and politics don’t mix.

    But there was also this, right up front: “nine separate experiments had not managed to reproduce the results of a famous study from 1998 purporting to show that thinking about a professor before taking an intelligence test leads to a higher score than imagining a football hooligan.” And I would argue that thinking about a professor before a test to get a higher score does not even come close to being science —
    that’s magic, which is not what science is about.

    Not sure if this article is suppose to open our eyes to inherent problems with science and scientist and as a result we will realize all the information on CO2, methane, melting ice caps is somehow flawed and that it is okay to burn coal and oil. If so, it failed. Your hypothesis that this article would change minds and we skip off to enjoy consuming more fossil fuels is a total dud.

  • U

    “The 25 are positive feedbacks taken from scientific journals.

    Nuclear power stations melting down has not yet happened. It’s something we can expect to happen if the electricity grid and other support services that keep nuclear power stations functioning collapse. So, it’s a prediction in the same sense that we can predict riots it there’s no food arriving in cities. That’s not science.”

    Which is why I keep out of science discussions. However, did Guy present Obama’s fast tracking of Arctic drilling as a reversible feedback loop. It’s not a positive feedback loop, but a feedback loop nonetheless? Since it was not based on physics, but on human will, how is it different from the certain warming trends which threaten nuclear meltdown?

    @ Grant

    I couldn’t agree more on the population issue. Why we need all the constant upgrades of technology… What a travesty. Why we can’t improve the old equipment without throwing away those precious materials… Capitalist madness.

    @ PB

    Thanks for your thoughtfulness and effort. I don’t disagree with anything you say. (In my more mystical moments, I can’t think of anything that isn’t a feedback loop of some sort, which is clearly not a welcome way of thinking here.) I agree that ways to categorize the issues that are helpful should be welcomed. But I don’t know what those ways might be. The cooperation you mention can also go toward finding out what are the most useful ways to employ our talents. Some of us are weak where others are strong. A good group finds a way to work with that.

  • ulvfugl Says:
    October 17th, 2013

    ” @ James R. Martin

    You came here castigating us for cynicism, trying to get a ‘lets you and him fight’ going between Guy and Hartmann, and now it turns out you are an ignoramus re the methane and have not been paying any attention, whilst you claim to care so very much, in your ‘holier than thou’ superior fashion that I remember so well from the NTE ning days…”

    “castigating us for cynicism” — Actually, I offered my take regarding social change theory. It wasn’t directed at folks in this forum, per se, but at the larger culture in which cynicism is quite a pervasive social phenomenon. Such cynicism is understandable enough, under these terrible conditions. But my point was to say that self-fulfilling prophesy [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy ] is a well known sociological and political fact. People almost never attempt what they deem impossible. And often enough the very thing that makes certain things “impossible” is the lack of sufficient effort on the part of a sufficient number of participants.

    You may not agree with this assessment. And that’s fine. But that’s not a good reason to accuse me of “castigating” forum participants. Social psychology observations do not amount to “castigation”.

    “trying to get a ‘lets you and him fight’ going between Guy and Hartmann” — Fight? Rather, discuss or debate — publicly. For educational purposes.

    It seems to me that you’re the one trying to get a fight going. But, as has been your habit in the past, it’s obvious that you’re just shadow boxing with a straw man of your own imagining. It wasn’t my problem in the past; and it isn’t my problem now.

    “and now it turns out you are an ignoramus re the methane” —
    Actually, I’m educated enough on the subject to know that there are significant uncertainties and knowledge gaps (my own, the larger world’s) worth looking into. You seem to think that my asking questions makes me an “ignoramous”. But this kind of response only makes you look foolish in public.

    You told me, ulvfugl, long ago that I wasn’t intelligent enough to bother with. Meanwhile, you kept painting yourself as the smartest and wisest man on Earth. So don’t bother with me. Please. And thanks.

    I’ll return the favor. I’ll leave you alone if you leave me alone. Sigh.

    ===

    Others, a little searching around on the internet does turn up articles which call into question some of the more worrisome positions on Arctic methane. For example, it MAY BE that methane hydrates have been bubbling up from the Arctic seabed for a very long time — much longer than the significant warming trend of recent date.

    The great difficulty in assessing this and other questions is the social and political force of trillions of dollars in fossil fuel infrastructure investments, etc., which tends to warp both science and science reporting. But it is a scientific understanding I seek. And I hope this to be the case for all who participate in this forum. Having an open mind about the scientific debate does not make anyone an “ignoramus”.

  • Grant – “And I would argue that thinking about a professor before a test to get a higher score does not even come close to being science —
    that’s magic, which is not what science is about.”

    It is called creative visualization, Grant, and it used so extensively in different areas demanding high performance it has become indispensable. whether that particular exercise in creative visualization would have any impact on performance would depend on many factors.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_visualization

    as far as the science behind this, that is called psychology. any psychological study or experiment performed with proper methods and controls would have just as much validity as any other scientific experiment performed with just as much care. of course, it has to be replicable and verifiable, like any other science, and if it is not, it has failed the test and/or needs to be refined and repeated until it can be verified or solidly refuted. I am sure the many thousands of athletes who have been using techniques like this, refined and practiced for many years, probably would not be wasting thousands of hours of precious training time on these methods unless they knew for certain that they worked.

    and of course there is all sorts of nonsense practices and popular misunderstandings that can be pawned off as creative visualization, just like there is all sorts of other nonsense practices and misunderstandings that can be pawned off as science. it happens all the time. so what? the point is that proper methods exist, and they can be used and understood by those who are properly trained, or who have taken the time to look into what is actually being practiced and researched, and the various results that have been obtained.

  • @ mike k

    A very feeble definition of spirituality.

    So nothing I’ve said to you has made the slightest impression. Your brain is set in concrete. I’m not surprised. Belief systems are intransigent.

    The Sprawling Dictates of a Maniac Gone Sane: Debt Revolution

    What you have to explain, to yourself, and to me, is exactly how ‘’Only the ultimate power can save the world. That power is love.’’ is going to have any effect upon the 20 or so irreversible positive feedback loops.

    You see, as far as I’m concerned, you’re lost in your romantic dream of hopium fumes, completely detached from the empirical reality of the material world. Bluntly put, delusional.

    If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

    For example, just a few of the difficulties with your position :

    How, in precise terms, does love reduce CO2 emissions ?
    How, in precise terms, does love stop ocean acidification ?
    How, in precise terms, does love stop the permafrost from melting ?
    How, in precise terms, does love stop the extinction of species ?
    How, in precise terms, does love stop China from continuing its industrial expansion so that it peaks it’s emissions in 2030, guaranteeing that all attempts to keep average global below 4 or 6 deg C are entirely futile ?

    I could go on, but you possibly get the idea by now.

    Answers ?

    And, for the sake of argument, can anybody offer a single example where the course of human history has clearly been changed by love ? There may be some, but I can’t think of any.

    @ FKLING

    Your critical thinking and logic is more than a match for that of Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau. Thinking outside the box. A match box.
    All you have is anecdote.

    NO>HARD>EVIDENCE>OF>ALIENS

    https://youtu.be/jbmtXbvMbYw

    @ Tony

    Tony, are you safe to be let out of your bedroom on your own ?
    I’ve tried to speak to you as an equal, it has been a dismal failure.
    I’ll try and explain as I would to, well, a ten year old – ( I’m guessing, my apologies if there are smart 10 year olds reading this who take offence, I’m not good or up to date on age groups… maybe 7 year olds ? )

    What do you think the so called permafrost is ? It’s frozen ground, mostly peat, decayed vegetable matter, soil, going down to subsoil and then rock, different depths according to the area.

    And it’s frozen solid. You know, ice. Like you have in a fridge.

    And what happens when the temperature is above freezing ?
    Above 0 deg C or 32 deg F ?

    The ice melts.

    How did the permafrost form ? It froze during the last Ice Age, when the land was covered in glaciers, for thousands of years until Circa 10,000 years ago.

    Why did it stay frozen ? Because it’s up there, near the effing Arctic, where’s it’s been mostly very, very cold.

    Yes, sometimes, it has warmed up a bit, and sometimes the surface layers have melted. And then the climate has got colder again, and it’s frozen again.

    But THIS TIME it’s warming and it isn’t going to get colder again, it’s warming, warming and warming, and going to keep on warming, and the permafrost is going to keep on melting.

    Check the science, Tony. What does it say ? About warming ?
    It’s warming MUCH faster, far north, I think about 4 deg C above global average.

    What happens when the frozen peat is melted ? It’s then just ordinary vegetable material, and just like any vegetable left in a fridge that’s been switched off, it rots. And when it rots it decays to produce CO2 and methane, which goes into the atmosphere to produce more warming.

    That’s a feedback loop. The cause becomes the effect becomes the cause becomes the effect, around and around. The worst sort are when they amplify each cycle and go exponential, but we don’t even need that to be into serious trouble, all we need is one that won’t stop and runs away for a few decades or centuries….

    This permafrost to CO2 and methane and warming cycle will continue indefinitely unless and until something stops it. Obviously, if the permafrost is very deep – I’ve read that in some places it is 800ft deep – it’ll take a very long time to thaw all the way down just from surface warmth. But previously, there’s been regular very cold winters covering the land with snow and ice.

    What happens when, instead of cold winters, there’s warm rain falling, and warm water soaking into the ground, that keeps on going all the way down until it reaches the bedrock ? It’ll melt all of that permafrost, however deep it is.

    There is no prospect AT ALL of this cycle being stopped, because there is no prospect AT ALL of the N. Hemisphere cooling. ALL of that permafrost is going to melt, and ALL of that CO2 and methane is going to come out eventually.

    How fast, and how much it contributes to the oncoming catastrophe remains an open question.

    Check the numbers, Tony. How much Co2 and methane have they calculated to be in the permafrost ?

    What will it do to the quantity in the atmosphere when it comes out ?
    What effect will that have on the average global temperature ?
    Those numbers are all available.

  • @ WoodsDweller, mo flow,

    I have not read the Ponerology book, but seeing that Zbigniew Brzezinski tried to block publication must put it on the recommended reading list for sure. I’ve read Authoritarians, it’s a free pdf online. Sociopath Next Door seemed lightweight, cashing in on a market opportunity, to me.

    mo flow, this psychopath topic was discussed on Dark Mountain a long time back, and I have not pursued it since, but the couple of films I watched at that time, you’d never say to yourself ‘These individuals are mentally ill’.
    They were slick, charming, well-spoken, efficient, well-organised individuals with smart suits, making money, etc.

    I tend to think of mental illness as when someone has a breakdown, or a extremely depressed or psychotic episode, a treatable condition, from which they can recover and return to a stable healthy state.

    Psychopaths aren’t like that, they are a type of person, and there isn’t a treatment or a cure, so to speak. The reason they’d be classified as psychopaths would be because of the peculiar inability to empathise, so if they happened to knock someone down with their car, they’d be worried about the damage to the car as much, or more, than to the person they’d hit, because, for them, other humans don’t figure as humans, they are merely items in the surroundings, to be used, manipulated, exploited, discarded, whatever.

    But if you, or others, want to see this as an an illness, I don’t have any strong objection, but I’d point to a deeper problem, in that it depends upon the paradigm you’re choosing.

    I wouldn’t use the DSM as a frame at all. I see DSM as a corrupt conspiracy between Big Pharma and the US psychiatric industry. Basically garbage, imo.

    If we want to decide what mental illness is, first we have to decide what mental health is, so that we have a standard by which to gauge from.

    How do we do that ? We have madmen, liars and war criminals at the pinnacle of soceity, who are celebrated, we have the mass of the citizenry, racing along the roads in their SUVs, burning up the fossil fuels, we have the lunatic academic shills who are promoting the status quo, etc, etc, and all of this is regarded as ‘normal’ and ‘sane’, whilst anyone who deviates from the standard behaviour of buying into watching tv and agreeing with all the shit, is regarded as…. well, you can see where I’m going… the Krishnamurti quote.

    @ patrick o’leary

    🙂

    @ PMB

    Thanks for making the list, it was very helpful of you, and I think it’s a good idea for people to check each of the 25 items, if only so that they can learn and understand.

    Regarding your mention of other aspects, nuclear, etc. we cannot possibly approach them in the same way, because they are ‘what ifs ?’, in the sense that, they will quite probably occur, we can guess, but there is no way we can get a tight scientific prediction.

    There will quite probably be a war using nuclear weapons, but how can we foresee that ? It could be Pakistan and India, Russia and USA, or whatever, over something that’s not even on the map at present. Sure, we could guarantee there wouldn’t be a nuclear war, by scrapping all nuclear weapons, but the political powers refuse to do that.

    This is quite different to the 25 things on Guy’s list which are already locked into phenomena which we can understand and measure and calculate. The problem with these is that they appear to be irreversible. Whatever action we take will not prevent them from happening, and the consequences will continue to have their inevitable effects.

    @ James Martin

    Clueless as ever…
    Actually, I’m educated enough on the subject to know that there are significant uncertainties and knowledge gaps (my own, the larger world’s) worth looking into. You seem to think that my asking questions makes me an “ignoramous”. But this kind of response only makes you look foolish in public.

    I don’t ever worry about my public image, James Martin, I speak my mind regardless. I learned what sort of a person you were on NTE ning.
    Your ‘leaving me alone’ hasn’t got off to a very good start has it ? Hahahaha

    Did you read the methane links that I provided for you ? I notice you didn’t thank me. Another bad sign.

    It’s obvious you are an ignoramus re the methane, you don’t even understand the difference between the land and the ocean. There’s been a major story going on this summer, of significance to everyone’s future, and you don’t even know about it ! Shows exactly where you are at. Big mouth, big ego, bluster, hopium.

    @ mo flow

    No Big Bang ? Dang !

    http://www.technologyreview.com/view/419984/big-bang-abandoned-in-new-model-of-the-universe/

  • yet another take on science gone wrong, this time with neuroscience:

    The field is plagued by false positives and other problems. It is now clear that the majority – perhaps the vast majority – of neuroscience findings are as spurious as brain waves in a dead fish

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22029391.500-neuroscience-wrongs-will-make-a-right.html

    Genetics went through a similar “crisis” about a decade ago and has since matured into one of the most reliable sciences of all. The fact that neuroscience is facing up to its problems is the sign of a young discipline growing up. Some of the flashy discoveries about brain areas “for” love or religion will go the way of genes “for” intelligence, or whatever. But neuroscience will be more nuanced and powerful for it.

    neuroscience hasn’t even gotten these most basic things right, and yet neuroscientists and philosophers basing their philosophies of mind on neuroscience are intently determined to make final pronouncements on things like the origin of consciousness, instead of just being brutally honest and saying: “science does not yet have the remotest clue what consciousness is.”

    what is it in some that motivates such an urgent need to make these pronouncements? hubris? fear?

    is it some kind of ego defense talisman to say “magic! magic! this is what is really going on!” I seriously do wonder. is the mystery really that scary? I suppose it could be, because it really is dangerously close – right behind the eyeballs.

  • “Researchers at the National Snow and Ice Data Center estimate that by 2200, 60% of the Northern Hemisphere’s permafrost will probably be melted, which could release around 190 billion tons of carbon into the atmosphere. This amount is about half of all the carbon released in the industrial age.”

    http://www.wunderground.com/resources/climate/melting_permafrost.asp

    If NSIDC estimate is close to the actual rate of future melting it would seem the prognosis may not be quite so bad as some here think. In that time frame it MAY be possible, if just barely, to begin to turn things the other way. That would probably require both (a) a radical transformation of our economy to a low-to-no carbon state and (b) reforestation (and an end to deforestation), biochar and/etc. active sequestration of currrent atmospheric carbon. But if we have even half that much temporal wiggle room, perhaps…?

    Now, I realize there are other mutually enfolding positive feedbacks beyond the permafrost concern. And I realize that worst case scenarios are, if avoidable at all, are avoidable only “by the skin of our teeth”.

    Still, let us remember that many or most prognostications concerning the future of Earth’s climate presuppose a range of projections concerning anthropogenic CO2 emissions, from BAU to (typically) a slow, partial and gradual reduction from BAU. It may be very unlikely that humanity can or will steer off the course between these two projected graph lines. But it isn’t impossible for us to do so, which is why I continue to argue for the … well, the attempt.

    In other words, what I’m wanting to do is to cooperate and collaborate on the immediate (as much as possible!) creation of a low-to-no carbon economy. A task which may be impossible, but which deserves a try anyway.

    And I’m not premising any hope on conventional political solutions. There almost certainly are none of these. A wave of change needs to emerge from the grass roots, below and outside of “politics”. Perhaps only a global emergency could nudge such a “miracle” into birth.

  • “It’s obvious you are an ignoramus re the methane, you don’t even understand the difference between the land and the ocean.”

    Why do you say so? Because I referred to both? Because I referred to methane bubbling up from the sea AND to it sighing out of the melting peat bogs? You think my doing so means I don’t know the difference?

    You remain the same verbal bully you were last time we crossed paths. Perhaps you think we’re playing a game in which you are scoring points by thwacking at me with your barbed stick? All I’m doing, man, is saying Let’s not play that game. Can’t you move on?

  • The Ocean Is Broken
    -by Greg Ray

    >>The next leg of the long voyage was from Osaka to San Francisco and for most of that trip the desolation was tinged with nauseous horror and a degree of fear.

    “After we left Japan, it felt as if the ocean itself was dead,” Macfadyen said.

    “We hardly saw any living things. We saw one whale, sort of rolling helplessly on the surface with what looked like a big tumour on its head. It was pretty sickening.

    “I’ve done a lot of miles on the ocean in my life and I’m used to seeing turtles, dolphins, sharks and big flurries of feeding birds. But this time, for 3000 nautical miles there was nothing alive to be seen.”

    In place of the missing life was garbage in astounding volumes.

    “Part of it was the aftermath of the tsunami that hit Japan a couple of years ago. The wave came in over the land, picked up an unbelievable load of stuff and carried it out to sea. And it’s still out there, everywhere you look.”>>

    There is more at the link below. Horrifying & happening now. Now. Argue the details all you want. We are killing her with a thousand cuts. If it was just one or two things, maybe I could drink the hopium juice. As it stands, as it happens, we get to watch. Great sadness.

    http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1848433/the-ocean-is-broken/?cs=12

  • ulvfugl – yes, I see where you are going, of course. treatable or untreatable, and “less insane” or “more insane” seem to be some key concepts.

    let’s just say psychopathy strikes me as more insane, and completely untreatable, on the mental illness spectrum. whether psychopaths can interact in the real world better than schizophrenics really does not really make a difference to me, and yes, watching one in action I would absolutely say “this individual is mentally ill” – there are so many behaviors that can be tagged as “out of the health spectrum” it is not even funny.

    the end result is destruction in one form or another, not health in any sense, and that seems to be the distinguishing factor for calling this “illness.” but again we get back to the Krishnamurti quote. 🙂

    http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/quote-of-the-month/krishnamurti-measure-of-health

    cyclical cosmo-genesis theories have been around for decades. always good to get links to new ones. thanks! that one looks very interesting. still, doesn’t solve the conundrum of “why something and not nothing” 🙂 one FREE miracle, yours for the taking.

    islandraider – that story is so horrifying, sickening and saddening. so much, happening so fast…

    (sorry for the over-post)