Finding The Light In The Era Of Permanent Winter Solstice

by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power

Winter NightAs far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.

~Carl Jung~


It is not uncommon to find ancient indigenous sites that were constructed in exact alignment with the sun’s rays at significant times of the solar calendar. Egyptian pyramids, Stonehenge, and ruins at Chaco Canyon in the United States are a few examples. With regard to the builders of Stonehenge and neighboring Maeshowe, Guardian blogger, Jonathan Jones, notes that, “the winter solstice must have been deeply important to them because on this day, and this day only, sunlight creates startling effects….Most astonishingly of all, it enters the long narrow entrance passage of the burial mound of Maeshowe on Orkney’s Mainland island and glows on the back wall of the inner chamber. The building becomes a giant camera, catching sunlight in a moment of mystery and wonder.”


The holidays or “holy days” that eventually evolved from Hanukah, indigenous winter solstice rituals, and the birth of Christ all focus on finding light in dark times. Mirroring the seasons, our psyches eventually reach the limits of tolerating darkness before light must be introduced, even if for brief periods of time. Conversely, overexposure to light can be harmful, and if taken to extremes can result in blindness.


This year as we in the Northern Hemisphere approach the annual winter solstice on December 21, we abide not only in seasonal darkness but in what appears to be a permanent psychic darkness resulting from catastrophic climate change and near-term extinction. In our despair, we may ask ourselves if there is any point in seeking to find any light in this terminal darkness. Why don’t we just mimic our bear brethren who willingly descend into the darkness for the winter and hibernate? Why not eat, drink, sate ourselves, sleep in, check out, and die? After all, glimpses of light are only poignant reminders of our inescapable predicament.


Twice in my life I have been told that I had cancer. Twice in my life I used those epiphanies to radically alter the way I live my life. At the moment, I am healthy and vibrantly alive, but human existence is profoundly fragile and uncertain, and the odds against any of us being alive at this moment in time are gargantuan.


As if the realities of near-term extinction were not devastating enough, the sinister silence and dubious distortions regarding Fukushima fallout heap darkness upon darkness, and we scour the psychic landscape for reasons to remain alive.


In a variety of other venues I have offered my perspective on the value of enhancing rather than diminishing our aliveness as we confront our terminal status. Rather than reiterate, I’ll take this winter solstice opportunity to cherish the light, knowing that its ultimate value can only be savored if we are genuinely able to sing with Simon and Garfunkel, “hello darkness my old friend.”


Many winters ago I was among several dozen Hopi-and non-Hopi individuals who sat in the dim light of a kiva on a frigid ceremonial night. The kachina dancers, always the ultimate teachers of the tribe, burst into the underground kiva chamber with the fury of the wind that howled above the ground. Shouting, drumming, and blasting their observers with a potentially terrifying cacophony, they began singing about the darkness as a necessary disciplinarian for the community. Certainly, I did not understand Hopi, but these words were later explained to me by crusty elders whose chiseled faces bore witness to their presence in more of these rituals than they could even count and to the darkness and light through which they had walked across many ceremonial calendar years. One of the intentions of shocking the community with intimidating kachina fury was and is to remind the people of their mortality and the reality that the profane perspective (that is to say in Anglo, psychological terminology, the human ego) will only harm the community and lead to individuals forgetting who they really are. As in virtually all indigenous ceremony, the sacred is central—the core of the community and of each individual.


Conversely, near the time of summer solstice the kachinas enter the outdoor plaza of the village as clowns, their bodies painted with black and white stripes, somewhat resembling zebras. For this ceremony, nothing is sacred, yet everything is sacred as they generally take the Trickster archetype over the top with raunchy humor and muddle-headed (yes, one of the kachinas is called the “Mudhead”), hysterically funny antics. Again, the underlying message is: Your profane, ego-based disregard for the sacred is “screwing you,” (sometimes literally salaciously pantomimed by the kachinas). The kachinas, like the ancient Greek Cassandra and the biblical prophets, are teachers who impersonate energies that the community reveres because the people believe they need constant reminders of what matters. They are deemed sacred forces who live in the village for six months of the year and in the clouds of the San Francisco Peaks of Northern Arizona the other half of the year. The black and white stripes are perhaps the most significant of all the clown symbols because these particular clown kachinas symbolize the integration of darkness and light in one person and one community.


I do not wish to romanticize the Hopi or any other group of indigenous people. They are confronting and healing their own wounds as a result of colonization. Yet they have not unequivocally lost, as civilized America has, their connection with the sacred through the earth community. Within the Hopi tradition is the teaching of “purification.” Throughout earth’s history, they believe, there have been four worlds, three of which have perished, and from their perspective this one is on an even more dramatic trajectory of self-destruction. According to the tradition, there must be a purification at the end of one world before another can begin. You might say that the Hopi have held in their psyches a profound sense of collapse and near-term extinction for millennia. It’s an integral aspect of their tradition as is dancing, singing, and a wicked sense of humor. Don’t forget the black and white stripes.


Some Hopi men I’ve known have gone into the plaza for ceremony, dressed as clowns, dancing and displaying bawdy kachina humor at the same time that their hearts were breaking. A terminally ill child, a brother killed in a car crash, a house burned to the ground—all reasons not to paint oneself with black and white stripes and become a fool in the plaza in order to join the community in remembering what really matters.


A useful practice with many indigenous people is this: Live as if every act, every task performed in daily life, every kindness expressed to another being and to oneself might be the last. This is one way I stay connected with the light in dark times. Walking in reverence, living contemplatively with gratitude, generosity, compassion, and an open heart that is willing to be broken over and over again. I do not always live the way I want to live. It’s a practice, and practice never makes perfect. Practice only makes practice, and if I think it’s perfect, I’m not practicing. Nevertheless, I’d rather stumble in the dark, finding an occasional candle to light the way than become blinded by excessive light. And so in this time of unprecedented darkness, find the light whenever possible, but most importantly, be the light for someone else who may not be as familiar with the darkness as you are. That may be why you came here.


Set the World on Fire from Pauline Schneider on Vimeo


The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 14-day seminar, 12-25 March 2014, Izabal, Guatemala, Central America.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 7-day seminar, 24-31 May 2014, Moho Creek, Belize, Central America.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 14-day seminar, 12-25 June 2014, Izabal, Guatemala, Central America.

Comments 138

  • Each moment is unique, has almost infinite potential, each moment is the whole thing, as precious and valuable as it is possible for anything to be, and none of them ever return… and yet people let them pass, waste them, squander them, without even noticing..

  • Thanks Carolyn for another essay – I especially like your concluding advise from indigenous people (to paraphrase: be mindful of your actions and sincere in doing everything).

    Testing the new comments section from the last thread, my comment didn’t get posted; i’ll check back to see if it’s there in a bit.

    Majority of Scientific Data Lost Due Within 20 Years, Study Finds

    The vast majority of scientific data are evaporating, never to be heard from again.

    The reason, based an analysis published in the journal Current Biology, is almost boring – old email addresses and obsolete storage devices are making off with hard-earned research, according to Tim Vines, a visiting scholar at the University of British Columbia, and his colleagues.

    In all, Vines and his team estimated that some 80 percent of data are lost within 20 years of the publication of their accompanying study.

    “Publicly funded science generates an extraordinary amount of data each year,” Vines said. “Much of these data are unique to a time and place, and is thus irreplaceable, and many other datasets are expensive to regenerate.”

    Today’s system of leaving data with authors is simply not working, the researcher said, noting that nearly all of the information is going missing. This is problematic if anyone down the line hopes to validate the work done with it or use it for other purposes.

    “I don’t think anybody expects to easily obtain data from a 50-year-old paper, but to find that almost all the datasets are gone at 20 years was a bit of a surprise.”

    The group came to their conclusion after attempting to collect original research data from a randomly selected group of more than 500 studies published between 1991 and 2011. Their efforts yielded very little, however, with the odds of obtaining underlying data dropping by 17 percent each year starting two years after the accompanying study was published.

    To counteract this trend, Vines said scientific journals should require authors to upload their data onto public archives as a condition for publication. Papers with data that are accessible to the public are more valuable for society, he argued, and thus should receive priority for publication.

    “Losing data is a waste of research funds and it limits how we can do science,” Vines said. “Concerted action is needed to ensure it is saved for future research.”

  • NO, my first comment and article link failed to take at the end of the migration complete thread.

    At least this one is working.

    Act now on methane

    by Malcolm Light

  • I notice there is NO mention here of McPherson and NBL, which IS disappointing, because I think we DO deserve some credit for being ahead of everyone…

  • Beautiful piece Carolyn. You understand the crucial importance of our inner journeys. The fate of the outer world depends on how we navigate those inner paths…

  • @RE – I have for long been a fan of utopian efforts, and have taken part in some. I look forward to your ideas about the Sun Project. The shadow that tracks all such efforts is the inner desires, fears, beliefs, egos of the participants. And how does a group manage all of that? Will you end up building the Tower of Babel, only on a smaller scale? Will the inner baggage and assumptions each bring to the game once more spell its collapse?

    I look forward to your ideas about community. I think this is an important experiment to envision and enact. Only in this way do we have a chance for continuing to live on Earth. Our failure to learn how to live together in peace and mutual care is the root of our present crisis. That real historic failure is why we are looking at the overwhelming likelihood of NTE.

  • are we still on the two post rule? if so, I’m sorry but just responding that the comment I said DIDN’T show up (above) in the migration thread IS NOW THERE!

    YaY RE and Cav! woo-hoo, it woiks (ala Curly)

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  • Carolyn, Bangledeshies need life coaching, pronto.

    They are drowning.

  • @Gerald S. – Are you trying to be helpful, or just indulging in mean spirited sniping?

  • our psyches eventually reach the limits of tolerating darkness before light must be introduced

    The word “psyche” comes from Greek, and refers both to mind and an abstractable entity called the soul. The mind is insentient, unaware, part of the body-mind complex. There is no separate abstractable entity in any composite construct, the second of The Three Features of Existence in Buddhism: “All composite constructs are without an abstractable entity”, i.e. “there is no soul”. However, there is indeed a fictitious construct in the mind identified as “I”.

    The awareness if the mind is not the self. The known is not the knower: the mind is known, as are thoughts, and even the sense of an “I” is known. None of these are the knower. The knower is the illuminator of the contents of the mind. The knower is not the possession of the knower: the knower IS the knower.

    Consciousness is not one’s possession, it IS oneself. There is no “your consciousness”; there is only “YOU consciousness”. It has no darkness: its does not illuminate unless an object to be illuminated – a thought in the mind – is intercepted. When its illumination is not perceived, it does not mean that it is absent. The night sky and outer space appear black, except for light rays directed at our eyes; yet there are plenty of light rays going in all sorts of directions unseen by us unless we go up there in a spaceship to intercept those rays.

    we abide not only in seasonal darkness but in what appears to be a permanent psychic darkness

    That state which is night to all beings, to the self-controlled man is wakefulness; when all beings are awake that is night for the sage who sees. – Bhagavad Gita, 2:69

    human existence is profoundly fragile

    It is a matter of timescale. On a different timescale, the mountains are fragile.

    the integration of darkness and light

    There is no darkness: even the faintest glimmer of awareness is light. Darkness is conceivable only in the context of light.

    Live as if every act, every task performed in daily life, every kindness expressed to another being and to oneself might be the last.

    Now there’s a bit of sanity.

  • Thanks. The old anti-spam is turned off and two got though, one got flagged, as opposed to about 40+ flagged in the spam box yesterday.

  • @Robin – The Soul is not so easily disposed of as some teachings would suggest. There is nothing outside the Supreme Reality. I am That. You are That. All of this is That. And there is nothing other than That. The Soul is also That.

    Of course there are false understandings about the Soul and it’s reality or lack thereof. However if Soul is understood to be a Face of the Supreme Reality, all these misunderstandings become irrelevant theological quibbles. Of course one must be in a higher state of cognition to have an immediate and accurate awareness of the Soul in its ultimate authenticity. Those lacking such experience can be excused for their illusory ideas of the Soul.

  • Soul is understood to be a Face of the Supreme Reality

    Anything with a face is not reality. Anything supreme implies a non-supreme, and is also not reality.

    one must be in a higher state of cognition to have an immediate and accurate awareness of the Soul

    Cognition has objects of cognition. Reality is not an object, it is ever the subject.

  • @Gerald Spezio

    You forgot to mention –

    Carolyn’s generous and heartfelt contributions to NBL – priceless.

  • Dear Carolyn
    I have a rather different point of view about life. But, I totally support your position. I agree with most of what you say. That in a great manner is contained in the last paragraph of your essay.
    For several decades I have been looking for a reason for our individual lives. Contrary to what Jacque Fresco says, that “life has no purpose”.
    I have lived my life very much in the way you say. I am very much happy with my life, although as you say, I do not always live the way I want to live. I enjoy everyday by being able to enjoy simple and complex things nature offers us to admire. I am very much in peace with my life. But, at the same time, that way of living has showed me that there must be something else.
    So many questions revolve inside my head. For example, how something so amazing as our body, was created (made), it can´t be just the result of a random process. The perfection of living nature in general also amazes me. Seeing from the point of view of a designer, something that I have been big part of my life, the designer of such a wonderful system must have had a reason for everything.
    I came to believe in Intelligent Design, and that we were created. So if we were created, we must have a role to play in this ecosystem, as all the other creatures, but something more, in a superior level, because we are intelligent. You expect more from the more capable.
    Going beyond what you say, and the Hopis, and many, I believe that there is purpose in our lives, a concrete one, beyond our own life. Not just living and being kind and practicing a way of living leading to an undefined perfection. It can be easily concluded that there must be all sorts of perfections. Not just “perfection”. We have to choose one as a main target, that will bring the need for some basic perfection, common to any perfection with some purpose. We are all gifted in someway, and that could be the starting point of our search for perfection.
    There is much to discuss about the concept of (basic) perfection, but indeed there must be more, because that (basic) perfection, that will never be reached, has to have some purpose in the end. For the moment, perfection is a glory concept behind a mist. No one knows what it is, or how it looks like.
    To me, perfection is not only our personal search for perfection, in the end is the mankind perfection. A perfection related with living in a perfect equilibrium with nature, and at the same time thrive. We can, we are intelligent, we have to learn how. Something that we are just beginning to understand. Probably without such an extreme depletion of resources, and less population, we may have become very much closer. Or maybe this had to happen to learn.
    That goal requires all of us to practice perfection with that objective, and our own lessons learned be transmitted to the next generation.
    On a previous post I suggested to become filers, as a desperate way to transmit our “practiced perfection”, and what is left to be done. To whoever comes after us.
    I believe that our current society will demise soon, us included, but we can´t just sit and wait. We are watching and living the whole process, somehow what we see must be useful to somebody in the future, since, it is not useful to us. Otherwise is selfishness.
    I agree with “Walking in reverence, living contemplatively with gratitude, generosity, compassion, and an open heart that is willing to be broken over and over again”, but I guess there are more things to do, besides some resistance, and going away from the city zombies, because after that, what?

  • From Huffington Post: Elizabeth Warren Comes Down Hard Against Global Warming, Separates Herself From Hillary Clinton On Climate Change

    Democratic U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren finally separated herself clearly from former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, regarding the issue of climate change and global warming. …

    TransCanada Corporation wants to build the Keystone XL Pipeline to carry oil from Alberta Canada’s tar sands to two refineries owned by Koch Industries near the Texas Gulf Coast, for export to Europe; and Hillary Clinton has helped to make that happen, but Elizabeth Warren has now taken the opposite side.

    Secretary of State Clinton, … had worked behind the scenes to ease the way for commercial exploitation of this, the world’s highest-carbon-emitting oil, 53% of which … is owned by America’s Koch Brothers. …

    The benefits to Koch Industries, from this competitive re-alignment in favor of tar-sands oil, have been estimated to be around $100 billion. This would add about $45 billion to the net worth of David Koch, $45 billion to the net worth of Charles Koch, and $15 billion to the net worth of Elaine Marshall. (David and Charles would then become the two wealthiest individuals in the world.)

    For the full article, with plenty of oily details:


    Our Global Conundrum is considerably larger than blame-the-victimized-customer politicians want many to believe. It is bigger than putting the onus on consumers to recycle absurd promotional packaging, which should have been banned in the first place so it never become an obstacle to life. It is bigger than getting around by the official, planned from the top, means… usually the only means… cars and airplanes and trains and sometimes ships. Its even more profound than how people choose to eat, which is the biggest ecological and climate impact… and the only one that is directly under the control of ordinary individuals (ok, theoretically a choice… unfortunately the sheeple have been hypnotized and manipulated by sophisticated, underhanded PTB propaganda — yes, TPTB have even told the proles what they should eat).

    The decisions that shaped the way human beings lived and traveled were made by a powerful elite, diverting taxes into roads and airports, giving powerful rail interests tax breaks and subsidies and free land, propping up fossil fuel industries with military ‘support’ and the corpses of the poor, promoting Big Ag… Now humanity is stuck with those decisions and their impacts – without viable alternatives. Meanwhile, these decisions are still being made by a handful of psychopathic power freaks, although it really doesn’t matter anymore, now that we’re rolling down this one way, no u-turn, dead end road to NTHE. But tiny bottom dwellers get more than a little confused (or mercenary) and hiss out proclamations about minuscule tree mosses being the towering forest. Even attacking the finest mosses who provide a bit of care and comfort. Scrape that away and there’s nothing but rough hard rock.

  • @ logspirit

    I bet some of us are listening real hard to what you’re saying. It takes time to turn the boat around, but I think you’re getting through.

  • @ Robin Datta

    If you really believe that your word games have anything at all to do with ‘reality’ I feel quite sorry for you.


    It occurred to me then to ask, does the Tantrika mourn the coming of the Kali Yuga?

  • “mike k Says:
    December 22nd, 2013 at 7:19 am e

    @RE – I have for long been a fan of utopian efforts, and have taken part in some. I look forward to your ideas about the Sun Project.”

    You’ll hear about some of the ideas in this Vidcast I just finished with Albert Bates from The Farm in TN.

    Also interesting information about Cuba, where Albert just returned from the International Permaculture Conference.

    BTW, I don’t consider the ideas Utopian, just practical.

    I also don’t see how Carolyn can be so convinced of the NTHE outcome without an understanding of what brought the temps and CO2 concentration back down after the PETM. It’s a possibility, it’s not the “lock” she makes it out to be.


  • I managed to drop something into the new Forum, for your enjoyment. We’ll see if this works:

    Pulling into the driveway, the car radio gave me, ironically enough, by The Cars:

    “Who’s gonna tell you when, it’s too late
    Who’s gonna tell you things, aren’t so great
    You can’t go on, thinkin’ nothin’s wrong
    Who’s gonna drive you home tonight”

    That Gerald, he’s a hoot, ain’t he? A curious mixture, who’s had me cogitating somewhat this week, but I want to go back a bunch of threads to where one of our veteran though now-occasional posters gave us the definition of a Concern Troll, and elaborate a bit on that…

  • It works. I responded to it Henry.


  • The Divine Play (“Lila”)

    i believe that there is purpose in our lives, a concrete one, beyond our own life.

    The Divine Playwright masquerades as each and every one of the multitudes, each simultaneously a spectator and actor in the Divine Play. The masquerades are so well done that each such spectator-actor imagines itself a separate individual. There is no “beyond”: all roles are Divine Roles.

    I came to believe in Intelligent Design, and that we were created.

    The Divine in the many roles remains Uncreated, in each and every one of the “we”.

    because that (basic) perfection, that will never be reached,

    One cannot “reach” where one already is. Behind each and every masquerade thevDivine remains Divine.

    A perfection related with living in a perfect equilibrium with nature, and at the same time thrive.

    Nature is a stage prop: it, like the entire Divine Play, is in the realm of time-space-causation, and is inherently imperfect. The Divine is the Author of all in the Play, both the good and the evil.

    That goal requires all of us to practice perfection

    The goal is to perfectly act our roles, even that of villains, for that too is a way to unmask one’s own masquerade of individuality.

  • On just posting to Carolyn’s essay, I got this error message: We thought you were an alien, but you don’t read their language, so you are human.
    What gives? Did I make some sort of mistake?

  • @Robin – “Anything with a face is not reality”

    There is only Reality.

    “Anything supreme implies a non-supreme…”

    There is only the Supreme.

    “Reality is not an object, it is ever the subject.”

    There is only Reality; subject, object or whatever – ALL is reality, there is no other than Reality.

    @RE – Utopian means impractical to many. To me it just means an experiment in living differently, hopefully better. Good luck on your project; I am not dising it in any way.

    Imo NTHE is not a certainty, although a heavy probability, depending on how you define ‘near”.

  • Yes, wrong answer to the captcha. There are some silly error messages in there.

  • Progressive Radio Network
    The Lifeboat Hour:
    Guy McPherson – 12/22/13

  • “Imo NTHE is not a certainty, although a heavy probability, depending on how you define ‘near”.”-MK

    I’m aware not everyone on NBL thinks NTHE is a certainty. In fact I think most just think it is a high probability event, and the timelines vary quite a bit probably from as short as 20 years to as long as 100. Past 100, not sure you can really call it “Near Term” far as the Human lifespan is concerned, though in Geologic Time that is very near.

    However, Carolyn writes about it in a way that conveys Certainty. There is a tone of resignation and depression regarding the inevitability of this event. If you buy the inevitability, it’s a motivator for inaction. Why bother doing anything if it is inevitable?

    The caveat that you should still try to live a more sustainable path because it is a more morally correct way to head into the Great Beyond doesn’t really overcome the sense of hopelessness you get reading this spin.

    The End is not Written in Stone. When the Skies Went Dark when Toba went Ballistic, I bet most Homo Sapiens alive then also gave up Hope.

    10,000 Human Souls did not give up Hope. They are the ones that made it through that Zero Point.

    It ain’t OVAH till the Fat Lady Sings.


  • There is only Reality

    Without the “of”s of awareness “of”. Hence referred to as the Void (Sunyata), the Limitless Void (Ein Sof).

    There is only Reality; subject, object or whatever

    Object is the known. Reality is not the known.

  • Thanks RD, Guy. A very touching, humble and humane talk. The wind behind the back the host (Mike?) mentioned seems analogous to rubbing sticks together to make a fire. For a long time it’s hard to imagine sparks will emerge, but we have learned that sticking to it WILL produce a flame, frustrating and slow as is the process. So the persistence and intensity of our preoccupations here WILL cause an ignition. That is certain.

    Something I want to explore eventually is the incredible cognitive dissonance between the mythology of inevitability, durability and efficacy OF INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY and the still veiled cataclysmic transformation of our moment. I’ve been a voice in the wilderness for nigh on 50 years, and now when the writing on the wall is becoming apparent to the many (FINALLY!) I find myself still being pulled in the direction of disbelief that massive change (good or bad) is upon us.

    That might mean that, like Rastafarians, whose initial stand against empire (Babylon) starting 80 years ago was seen by any “sane” person as stark, raving madness, one has to be more apart from mainstream society than is comfortable. Rastafarians had to distinguish themselves and be fiercely dedicated to maintain the integrity of their message (which has subsequently spread worldwide). So is the quasi mainstream gradualist posture–not distinguishing oneself by, for example, language, dreadlocks, herbs, diet (vegetarian/vegan), etc.)at odds with the kind of cultural upheaval that conscious behavior requires at this time?

  • Putting Fukushima In Perspective

    There was no background radioactive cesium before above-ground nuclear testing and nuclear accidents started.

    Wikipedia provides some details on the distribution of cesium-137 due to human activities:

    Small amounts of caesium-134 and caesium-137 were released into the environment during nearly all nuclear weapon tests and some nuclear accidents, most notably the Chernobyl disaster.


    Amidst Typhoons and Climate Change, U.S. Spying Network Shows Contempt for Environment


    Despite mounting evidence that global warming is leading to devastating environmental disasters in the Pacific region, the U.S. and its partners are suspicious of climate change advocates. Rather brazenly, Washington and its Pacific allies spy on those who are intent on reining in global warming.

    Indeed, according to the Guardian newspaper, which wrote a report based on Edward Snowden’s recent disclosures, the National Security Agency or N.S.A. spied on Ban Ki-moon and obtained the United Nations Secretary General’s “talking points” on climate change. The N.S.A. carried out its espionage prior to a recent meeting between Ban and President Obama at the White House.

  • It ain’t OVAH till the Fat Lady Sings

    There’s a choir of Fat Ladies singing; one of them is Mme. Thane.

  • Love the new improved NBL, thanks to everyone that worked on it!

    I agree that those who have accepted NTE as imminent are likely to meet each new day with trepidation. What is the definition of “imminent?” Tomorrow? Next Week? Next Year? Next Decade? I discovered John Michael Greer, Xray Mike and Guy McPherson over 6 years ago – and I am still waiting for the Collapse to come to America.

    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  • look pat, the system is imploding as we speak – it just takes a while for something this large to manifest a tipping point, after which it becomes increasingly more difficult to ignore. Here’s one example:

    Military pension cuts now unsure; changes likely

    Military pension cuts now uncertain, but future changes to troop pay, benefits likely

    There are more each day – on the economic front, the environmental front, or via climate change and extreme weather all over the place (even in the U.S.), like an enormous and ever-expanding sink hole, sooner or later it approaches all of us in some form or another.


    I still have Milkweed seed free for anyone still interested. Sadly, just one person responded to my earlier offer. I thought this site is populated by people who love wildlife?


    A recent story appeared in the Telegraph newspaper about an increase in reported UFO sightings across Britain; there’s a quote from Malcolm Robinson, founder of an organization called Strange Phenomena Investigations:

    “There has been an unusual number of sightings recently. Some experts believe it could be linked to global warming and craft from outer space are appearing because they are concerned about what man is doing to this planet.”

    There does actually seem to be a curious connection between aliens and environmentalism.

    One argument often used to dismiss UFO sightings is that true aliens would be wise and peaceful – having long since overcome problems such as war and the nuclear arms race – so they wouldn’t be skulking around, kidnapping people and being mysterious. I’m not sure that’s actually such a sound argument, however, as it assumes that civilization elsewhere in the Universe would follow a path almost identical to civilization on Earth – with warring nation-states, “the Bomb” and everything else – when we can really make no such assumption. True aliens might be far more unfathomably bizarre than we have been able to imagine.

    What becomes readily apparent if you start to read accounts of alleged alien contact is that there’s sometimes a message about the environment, often delivered as some kind of graphic warning. Wikipedia mentions this in its entry on alien abduction. Abductees report being subjected to frightening movies that show environmental catastrophes – devastating earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and burning forests – humanity’s fault, or at least exacerbated by human greed and ignorance.

    One abductee, Dr. James Sparks became obsessed with saving the rain forests in 1995, after having been kidnapped by aliens. He believes that the human race is being “farmed” by extraterrestrials but that their investment is now in danger, because humans have chosen an environmentally destructive path.

    The following is an excerpt from an interview with Sparks in a book by researcher Linda Moulton Howe, and is about his recollections of an encounter and conversation with reptilian aliens:

    ‘We contacted your leaders because your planet is in grave trouble. Your leaders said the vast majority of your population wasn’t ready for anything like us yet, so we made time agreements with your leaders as to when your people would be made aware of our presence. This part of the agreement has not at all been kept.

    ‘It was also agreed that, in the meantime, steps would be taken to correct the environmental condition of your planet with our advice and technology. We say advice, because we respect the fact that this is your planet, not ours. Your government also broke this agreement.’

    “I felt an awful emotion of abandonment from these aliens. They are different. I never sensed true emotion from the other aliens before. But the feeling wasn’t at all good. It felt like great loss. I couldn’t help asking, ‘You aren’t giving up on us, are you?’

    “There was a long pause of silence and I had a strong feeling of tremendous loss. So I asked again, ‘Well, are you?’ There was another long pause. “Then finally:

    ‘No. We are now concentrating our energy on the average person. Your air and your water are contaminated. Your forests, jungles, trees and plant life are dying. There are several breaks in your food chain. You have an amount of nuclear and biological weapons which include nuclear and biological contamination. Your planet is overpopulated. Warning: It is almost to the point of being too late unless your people act now. There are better ways of deriving your energy and food needs without causing your planet any damage. Those in power are aware of this and have the capability to put these methods into worldwide use.’

    “I asked, ‘Why aren’t we doing it now?’ There was silence, and the whole thing was so strange because I could see that the whole group was thinking and speaking its mind at one time. It felt good because I was a participant in an honest-to-goodness meeting! The best part was that for the first time I was getting direct answers to my questions. ‘Why aren’t we putting these new methods into use now?’

    ‘Those in power view it [technology for clean energy and abundant food] as a military and security threat.’

    “Then I got angry as hell and said, ‘You mean to tell me our people in power have the ability to save and better this planet and they aren’t doing it?!’ The thought that technology was being held back from the public because of paranoia and greed outraged me, and the aliens saw my anger.

    References to contaminated air and water, dying forests, overpopulation… The urge to “act now” so as not to damage the planet further… A feeling of rage towards the “paranoia and greed” of those in power.

    One of the most well-known UFO contactees is the highly acclaimed writer Whitley Strieber, author of Communion (also, incidentally, co-author of 1999 book The Coming Global Superstorm which was the basis for 2004 disaster movie The Day After Tomorrow). Communion and its sequels purport to be about the writer’s own experiences with aliens.

    In Communion, published in 1987, following multiple episodes of abduction and contact with the grey alien “visitors”, Strieber describes being the recipient of information about “the danger of impending atmospheric deterioration”, which he later connects to news of the discovery of the hole in the ozone layer.

    In Transformation, the 1988 sequel to Communion, he describes a number of alarming dreams, which are possibly linked to his reported experiences with the aliens. These include the destruction of a power station and a vision of giant boulders flying past the Moon. He writes:

    Contact with the visitors is almost universally associated with catastrophic predictions. People are told of impending wars, of earthquakes, of meteors directed towards the earth, of polar shifts and the coming of new ages of ice or heat. I myself had been shown graphic depictions of the death of the atmosphere, not to mention the entire planet simply exploding.

    Later in the chapter, he speculates that much of this imagery might relate to personal and social upheavals brought on by alien contact, rather than physical disasters. However, he does not rule out the possibility that his premonitions about catastrophic global warming are actually about something real and imminent.

    A 2012 article in New Dawn Magazine describes Strieber’s reporting of an episode during which he communicated with, not an alien this time, but a rather weird shamanic sort of individual he calls “the Master of the Key”:

    Among other things, the ‘Master of the Key’ spoke about sudden environmental change, and the ending of this current age. There is, he said, a great cycle of climate change, involving “sudden shifts back and forth from ice ages to temperate periods.” Although this cycle is natural, it has been sped up by human activity, and we are about to usher in a ruinous period, “that will lead to the extinction of mankind, or to a massive reduction in population.”

    There are a number of additional quotes I could have included, by investigators such as Dr. David Jacobs, Temple University, and Dr. John Mack, Harvard school of Medicine which also suggest a connection between alien abduction reports and visions of ecological collapse.

    One final example. It’s a presentation by soft-spoken Oxford University academic Dr Young-hae Chi which was made at a conference held in the UK in 2012 by AMMACH (Anomalous Mind Management Abductee Contactee Helpline) and which you can now see on YouTube. Dr Young-hae comes across as sincere – he clearly believes that aliens are actually abducting and/or communicating with people, and that there is a connection with anthropogenic global warming (he quotes James Hansen during his slideshow and shows graphs from IPCC’s 2007 AR4 report.) One video segment during his presentation shows an interview with a woman who reports standing with hundreds of people in a vast spaceship and watching a movie in which beautiful scenes of mountains and oceans were replaced by scenes in which a virulent black gunk oozes up from the Earth and destroys the biosphere – a representation perhaps, Dr Young-hae speculates, of devastation caused by methane released from melting permafrost.

    So – whether or not aliens really exist – there does seem to be a strange connection between extra-terrestrials and environmental doom.

    The truth – as somebody once said – is out there.

  • Just a short comment to say thanks to Tom. To mine mind he connects the dots. Collapse is happening; it just isn’t happening the way we visualize it and it’s happening to others more rapidly in different places.

    All I can offer is that in all my years on the planet the last twele months have seen a major escalation in the number of events on all fronts that say things are spiraling out of control. Kudos to Artleads for thinking the ship is turning around, ever so slowly. Sadly I don’t see it. It’s the same message I’ve been hearing over the last decade at NOFA conferences, Weston Price conferences or permaculture confernces. They keep saying that things are getting better and better and better and these people are supposed to at the forefront of issues. I say supposed to be.

    So Albert Bates continues, as do many people taking Permaculture classes and attending conferences but flying around the world. I don’t know, but it seems that where Guy is aware most, if not all of those attending those events really believe they are doing something to help the world. Gerald I believe I understand what you’ve been saying and I smile at it (well not the cremation myth, but let’s leave that aside for the moment), but are you holding Guy to a higher level than say Albert Bates or Geoff Lawton.

    Recently I learned that if you spent your entire life being really environmentally conscious in your actions (whatever that means) that if you were to be cremated you just blew your load for whatever savings you made during your life. Much to unpack in this “fact”.

    After having heard Albert Bates speak many times there are many flaws and holes in the Farm that never seem to be addressed during these times. Let’s not forget the Farm failed and then there was a coup and it morphed into something else. The Farm is a functioning microcosm of he larger economic system; it is not a locally self sustaining entity. If you’ve seen presentations by Bates he is proud when he talks about all the offshoots the Farm has created and yet it looks very similar to a map of a corporation that has diversified. It is a national and perhaps even a global entity dependent on fossil fuels to keep it functioning.

    Does anyone else question that Caldicott, Wasserman, Gundersen, Lovins (the husband and wife), Goodman, etc, etc say about us being able to run our world entirely on Solar and Wind? Gary Null gives the impression that all our problems can be solved with Geothermal. Another statement that never gets completely unpacked when made.


    Appreciate all you have written over the long haul. I’ve read all you’ve recommended over time. I’m comfortable where I am. Eating mostly veggies and the like, but still enjoying flesh in the small quantities I ingest.

    I took a risk in what I wrote. Most of my life, and even today it still happens, when people used to tell me that i had a choice in being gay I would get angry because they were telling me more about them than about me. I see produce much as i see animals. Plants do respond to being talked to and touched, so they are a form of life as well just one that doesn’t have a face. I’m not sure feeding a lion a diet without flesh would satisfy it.

    @Godofredo Aravena

    I’ve been thinking about your 2 child replacement comment from a while back and am trying to develop a more full response to it. One the surface it seems to make sense (well not to me and not at this point), but once I started to think of people like Geoff Lawton and his procreation pattern as well as his use of fossil fuels it raised some interesting questions.

    Lawton had children from his first marriage and now is having children from his second. How does that fit into your replacement theory. Didn’t he reach his quota on the first mating, and if not then if he wants to procreate with the second wife doesn’t he have to “return” his prior offspring to qualify to more. It’s not such a simple situation.

    @To RE

    I’ve been browsing your SUN site. Much of this is familiar to me and I have made several attempts along parallel lines at this effort. It does make many assumptions that don’t seem to be holding up very well during the last few years, but I’d like to see a more fully developed plan to read through. I’m glad you addressed the issue of finances as being an roadblock for many people. FYI. I’ve attempted similar projects over the last decade (5 times and trying for number 6) and at some point I’ll share why and when each one failed, but others on this site have touched on their failures often. Elaine comes to mind.

  • PMB

    The boat I referred as turning around was specifically about eating less or no meat. The environmental cost of the industrial production of meat is monstrous. And the chemicals in the industrial meat are as toxic as the floating radiation we all suffer from. Not a good thing. But given that we’re all victims within a dying biosphere, I know of no fix other than to follow your conscience and be, as Guy recommends, kind and compassionate regarding just about everything and everyone.


    I come at this from a different angle from (but I fancy compatible with) yours. I get the same feeling from Carolyn’s writing. Way, way too “certain” about the prospect of doom. (In fact, it feels like your “fat lady” were sitting on my chest and restricting my breathing). All I can say is that we’re heading there for damn sure, while I suspend judgment as to the prospect of the well known slip twixt the cup and the lips between now and when the lady intones.

  • @RE
    Good luck on your venture. Personally, I have no desire to survive the coming catastrophes (assuming that is possible). To be part of some small group struggling to eat and drink, after these 50 plus years of pretty easy life on this planet, is of no interest to me. I am, however, in no way, discouraging you. Good luck, you’ll need some.

    Few have totally given up, and if one has or does, he or she won’t be around long at all. Do, as you like. As Guy said, “Be kind.”

  • Dear FriedrichKling,

    Thank you for reposting this. I would love to get some milkweed seeds sent out to me. :-)

  • I find the disjointed messaging that goes on here and from Guy himself alarming. Does anyone else see how crazy this is getting? Please slow down and think more, stop panicking. There is so much work to do and time to do it in. The biggest problem we have to overcome is in our own psyches. Because that is where action or inaction originates. Right now we have net inaction and that is growing and growing. As the word gets out, our inability to act is going to compound our inability to act. Paralysis will set in. As this escalates the less chance for preventing the worst case scenario will feedback positively on its self. RE is pointing out some important red flags about being cautious now. As am I. Stop being part of the industry of fear and destruction.

  • With many thanks to TIAA……

    “Normally by now, hundreds of Mexico trees would be covered by wintering monarchs, but so far it’s only 12 trees. The Monarch butterfly migration is at the lowest number on record…..Unless decisive action is taken, extinction is not out of the question”

    – Lincoln Brower, Ph.D., Biologist, Sweet Briar College, VA.

  • IC-as-normal is like a movie portraying animals as having human traits (speech, etc). It’s cruel manipulation of the animal, but we want to believe it’s above board, that it’s “real.” It’s like a Rorschach test where you can see at a given moment only one of two competing versions of reality. The movie of IC-as-fatal has not been effectively produced or disseminated. It’s too serious, too cold, too feeble. To reach the masses, the truth must be sugar coated, the narrative must seduce.

  • My dear TIAA, thanks so much for that 11:16 post. It’s as near to the point as I’ve seen for a while. (Although the disjointedness I stumble on most is the technical one of not knowing which thread is which anymore. I think Guy and everyone else is functioning like a one armed wallpaper hanger, dealing with a difficult transition process as best one can, which can scramble the narratives? :-))

  • TIAA, what part of my message do you find disjointed?

  • I thought this site is populated by people who love wildlife?

    Soon enough the planet will be populated by people who like wildlife – on a fork. Bushmeat.

  • The Dangerous Intoxication of Power

    In the beginning of Wagner’s Ring Cycle, the Rhine maidens foolishly reveal to the dwarf Alberich that the gold they guard can be forged into a Ring conferring the power to rule he Earth. They further reveal that only one who has renounced love can steal the gold.

    This is the situation of humankind on Earth today. We have collectively renounced love in favor of unbridled power. This began long ago in our history, and is the root cause of all the war, poverty, lying, and treachery we have perpetrated on each other and all the living beings of this planet. The arrogance, addiction, blindness, and insanity stemming from our Faustian bargain – trading love for power – now threaten to finally destroy us all.

    Those who scoff at the healing power of love to restore our sanity are wholly under the spell and illusions of the materialist, dominator mentality. The goal of fascism is the elimination of love. Orwell’s 1984 understood this well. To crush everything peaceful, loving, feminine is the agenda of those obsessed with control and hyper-masculine dominance.

    There is no sustainable model for people living together in peace and harmony that is not based on making love the primary value and goal of everyone in society. Without a change to embracing and practicing these deeper values, our time on Earth will soon be up. This is a simple and inviolable law for intelligence evolving anywhere in the Universe. The competitive aggressiveness that was natural in the early stages of our development becomes lethal if carried on into the period of our wielding much greater powers and energies. Love or perish.

  • Is the site still having problems? My posts are just not getting through…

  • It was caught in the spam filter, not sure why. I let the first one through.

  • RE: TIAA

    I do not think that this site means what you think it means.

    Abandon hope all ye who enter here

  • TIAA Says:

    “The biggest problem we have to overcome is in our own psyches.”

    Perhaps the biggest problem you have to overcome is in your own psyche. And when you get that straightened out, maybe then you can speak to the world’s ‘biggest problem.”

    I always try to keep in mind that I’m not the boss – the great thinker who will save mankind – I am a speck on a speck with rare delusions of greatness. lol.

  • Can’t get a comment up on the Climate-change summary and update post. There is no captcha and I keep getting an error message, “ERROR: Come on, at least give it a try!”

    Seems like something is missing there. There are also missing “**” markerts around the latest changes.

  • That’s the message when there’s no captcha response entered in the field. Trying refreshing your browser.

  • While we’re on the subject of light and darkness, I’d just like to talk about the little self-generated puddle of light that a cyclist moves into, which is totally adequate, human scale, and fit for purpose… until some metal box comes past. When they are a hundred yards behind you, their headlights make it possible to see a mile up the road, but every bump in the road just ahead now casts a shadow on it’s far side. So now you have this weird situation in which you can see where you might get, without being able to see where you’re going. Your eyes adjust themselves to this farcically useless ersatz daylight, and as soon as the metal box overtakes, your eyes suddenly have to readjust themselves to darkness tinged only with the rapidly receding red glow of tail lights. Until they do, you are effectively blind to anything in the road just ahead of you. Given these facts, it becomes obvious that here is an optimum periodicity of overtaking metal boxes which makes it possible to render a cyclist blind for their entire journey, and it is no surprise that metal boxes ‘gravitate’ inevitably toward this optimum periodicity.

    And that’s without even mentioning the effects of the metal boxes coming from the other direction..

    This could be a metaphor, or a parable, or something.. make of it what you will…

  • I’ve copied and printed out your essay; and will present it to my Grand Daughter tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what she has to say about it.

  • December 23rd, 2013 at 3:53 am
    It ain’t OVAH till the Fat Lady Sings
    There’s a choir of Fat Ladies singing; one of them is Mme. Thane.

    It’s a METAPHOR, and Mme. Thane is A Fat Lady not THE Fat Lady, though I have never heard of her.

    Anyhow, if this OVAH metaphor doesn’t suit you, since NBL uses Baseball metaphors, I’ll go with Yogi Berra.

    It Ain’t Over till it’s Over

    Nature may Bat Last, but we can take it into Extra Innings.

    RE Steps to the Plate…


  • @ Doomer Support,
    Thank you so much for keeping this site clean and accessible. The best web maintenance is invisible and effortless and that seems to be the case. And thanks to your background team as well.
    We’re in the middle of an ice storm tonight. All the birches are so bent over with ice that their crowns are freezing to the ground. No telling how long we’ll have power.
    Merry Christmas to those who care about such events.

  • Robin Datta Says:

    I thought this site is populated by people who love wildlife?

    Soon enough the planet will be populated by people who like wildlife – on a fork. Bushmeat.


  • @PMB

    I’ve been browsing your SUN site. Much of this is familiar to me and I have made several attempts along parallel lines at this effort. It does make many assumptions that don’t seem to be holding up very well during the last few years, but I’d like to see a more fully developed plan to read through.
    Did you read the Prospectus?
  • coyoteyogi: hang in there; I recently lost a big branch off of a small mountain pine (I planted about 4 years ago) due to early snow and ice load, before winter. Yesterday it was 68, the high tomorrow is to be about 42 “they’re sayin'” and by Christmas it’ll be high of 32. Try to enjoy your time with family. Who knows how many more of these there’ll be.

    ulvfugl: great global image – are you still there man?! That’s a serious storm! Might have to hole-up til it blows over. Stay safe.

    As if engineered, this never before seen jet stream of 275 mph in the upper levels is exiting Canada. This jet stream will move across the Northern Atlantic and deepen a surface low that is only 1004mb at this moment. This jet stream will act as a vacuum, sucking the air from the center of the storm and dropping the pressure within it to an impressive 930mb low. This is a pressure fall over over 50mb by Monday evening to Tuesday morning for the United Kingdom region. It will cause problems, with the initial concern will be the amount of rain for Wales, Central and Southern England where over 50mm of rainfall will fall. Double that over the hills. The rain will fall on already saturated ground which will lead to flooding.

    Very windy on Monday with the system, about 70 mph gusts likely in the South. On Christmas Eve expect 70-80 mph wind gusts in Northern Ireland and Western Scotland … with heavy snow in the Scottish Mountains. Weakening winds across Northern Scotland on Christmas day with winds relaxing … for the most part it looks nice on Christmas.

    But we’re not done yet. This powerful jet will deepen yet another low pressure system on Friday and this warm front will sweep across Ireland with tornadic dynamics. It’s very likely that with this surface low being much further south than the first one that shear and warm air advection through Ireland will cause a tornado scenario there so be exceptionally alert.

  • @ Doomer Support,
    Thank you so much for keeping this site clean and accessible

    No problem. As I’ve said before, I do not agree with all the conclusions Guy has come to regarding NTHE, but the ramifications are too great to ignore. Therefore I will do what I can to help him get his message out, while hoping that we end up with a bottleneck and not extinction.

    It’s you folks, who (like us) are making changes in your lives, that make the difference. This internet thingy will pass, but love will remain…

    Good luck with that weather.

  • @ Tom

    Yeah, I read somewhere it’s the lowest pressure to come this way for 100 years, and now we get two in a week. By adjusting the heights it gives nice imagery of the jet stream. I suppose this has something to do with Jennifer Francis’ Rossby Waves thing and the Hadley Cells and so forth being upset by the warming Arctic. The wind here made it hard to stand up and the rain was horizontal, so that tells me it was around 80mph. Calm at the moment but I think it’ll be back again soon. Probably three inches of rain, but I don’t mind much, this is a steep mountain, it just runs down the slope. There’s some dripping into my house though. I don’t like that so much.,48.06,329

    @ Doomer Support

    You’re doing a great job !

  • Doomer Support,

    I did refresh my browser, several times and deleted cookies for the site. Still get no captcha code to enter and still get the error. I’m on Firefox. Also tried Chrome, still no captcha code and same error. Same on Internet Explorer.

    It’s only a problem on the climate change summary post, no problem with this post or an older recent one I commented on earlier.

  • @ FriedrichKling
    I’m currently camping in a place where I can plant out some milkweed. I have not been able to find the post where you offered clues about how to get in touch with you. If you would like to contact me about this, I will reply with a postal address where you can send the seeds. I imagine that Guy will be gracious once again and provide you with my email address.

    @ Artleads
    Yes, some are listening, some are not. Those who are not listening constitute the crux of the problem. The effort feels like a dream stuck in glue. I think Nixon or someone of his ilk said something like: “All I know is, that’s all I want to know.” Ignorance is a proud and mighty beast. I guess what used to amaze me, but now only makes me sick, is how often I keep hearing the same ridiculous ‘arguments’… toxic memes which have been provided as lazy substitutes for thinking, for really examining presuppositions with a clear open mind. It is the trap which felled us into NTHE.

    @ PMB
    Would 7 billion lions be sustainable?


    If I was asked to write a eulogy for you dear Earth, what could I say? Would I speak in boring banal tones praising your beautiful sunrises and magnificent sunsets, abstracting their mysteries into guttural grunts and grotesque gestures? Or perhaps I should try my hand at describing in entirety the complexity of your sparkling tropical crescent beaches that once were filled with life of myriad color and form and whimsy that only the ingenuity of billions of years of evolution could produce… or capture with my thrusting pen your fierce ice storms and volcanoes and deserts and free eagles… and butterflies… and dragonflies… Should I imitate your flowers? Or should I drop to my knees and thank you for producing… me… so I could spend some time with you, dear mother, and feel the warmth of life… Or should I tearfully apologize to you for the horrible human I was, severely berate and punish myself for not fighting more bravely for your honor, selfishly holding back, unwilling to sacrifice everything, including ‘my’ life, to defend your grace. I’ll do it now. I’ll die. I’ll die with you. Oh! Dear mother, Your mortal wounds. Alas, like the crayon drawings of a toddler, all I can make for us is this puny epitaph, and if it is written upon this space bare stone, then you and I are dead.

  • That was one I copy and pasted from the other database to catch a late edit by Guy. I made a slight format change and re-published it, can you check again, please?

  • @Friedrich, I actually had gathered some milkweed seed this fall, so I’m good, thanks…

  • Thanks, Doomer Support. That did it!

  • @RE – read through SUN’s prospectus – IMHO, sounds like a Goldman Sacs boiler room with a garden.

  • Chris Hedges interviewed by D. Jensen.

  • I tried to embed the player, that didn’t work, here’s the link

  • @Bob S. & RE – I had a similar reaction to the SUN’s prospectus, Bob. We are truly trapped by our civilized conditioning. We bring the same tired methods to our attempts to control the flooding river of our karma, that got us here in the first place. The SUN project seems like an expanded version of the tragicomic doomsday preppers I see on TV. I really admire your trenchant diagnosis of our predicament RE, but your treatment plan has so much emphasis on the outer dimensions of survival, and seems to me to be short on the inner dynamics of personal and group transformation required for any sustainable life together. Remaining the same deeply flawed humans, but with better external arrangements is just not going to suffice imho. I’m sure you will feel I am missing something here RE, so fill me in on how you are going about birthing the new humans needed for a new life on Earth? And again, I respect your efforts, and offer my remarks in the spirit of constructive criticism.

  • @log spirit – I love your poetic eulogy. The mood reminded me of “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?…” But a question: what did you mean by “written upon this space bare stone”?

  • @RE – read through SUN’s prospectus – IMHO, sounds like a Goldman Sacs boiler room with a garden.

    Good, it means it won’t be seen as a threat to the status quo. If TPTB think it’s an exploitative system of BAU, they will ignore it.

    I argue strongly for new modes of living to be hidden inside legal structures that do not set of alarm bells, and alternatives can metastasize inside the dying system.

    Care to discuss it in the forum, since that’s a digression from this thread?

  • @ mike k,

    Thanks. You take on what I was too cowardly to do. I’m so torn by what RE manifests. I was touched by his interview with Albert Bates; his technical solutions there–sail ships, small scale, bows and arrows–were so wise. (And Albert Bates had such deep experience to contribute…)

    And then there’s the rest.

    I didn’t get as far as you. I clicked on the SUN logo (which I disliked) and nothing happened. But that’s OK. Whatever it is they are doing, I wish them success. I have limited interest in technological fixes myself. I remain on the outside looking in. Like you, my focus is on a human fix. A little closer to RE than you perhaps, I don’t separate a human fix from an APPROPRIATE technological fix. In some sense maybe, the medium is the message. You are your technology.

    I don’t disparage the hard side–conflict, weapons, some unpleasant technology. Since I also propose a social fix (different, more spare and limited than deep personal shift) I envisage a world that looks superficially like what we have now, but with a host of hidden features that confer relative sustainability. Those hidden features are as much about human as about technologic change. They go together for me. For instance, it would take huge human change just to safeguard and store and mete out small amounts of fossil fuels over extended time. Which could sustain extremely strategic, distributed industrial manufacture that serves the WHOLE…

    So RE and his brilliant self would be indispensable for my scenario to work. Where he comes up short now, IMO, applies to the personal change that you espouse, or to the personal/social/cultural one that I do.

    RE needs to be born again as a woman. :-)

  • @Bob S. & RE – I had a similar reaction to the SUN’s prospectus, Bob. We are truly trapped by our civilized conditioning.

    Okay, I’ve split this off as a separate thread in the forum. Join me, if you wish…

  • @ Doomer support

    “‘@RE – read through SUN’s prospectus – IMHO, sounds like a Goldman Sacs boiler room with a garden.’

    Good, it means it won’t be seen as a threat to the status quo. If TPTB think it’s an exploitative system of BAU, they will ignore it.

    I argue strongly for new modes of living to be hidden inside legal structures that do not set of alarm bells, and alternatives can metastasize inside the dying system.

    Care to discuss it in the forum, since that’s a digression from this thread?”

    I just posted about this, but don’t see my post yet. I agree with you in principle, although I haven’t actually SEEN what SUN is up to. I actually propose a similar methodology, for similar reasons, in a different way. I’m a huge computer dunce. Otherwise, I’d figure out how to get on with this subject on the forum. Meanwhile, I hope you take a look at what Mike K and I had to say on the subject. Many thanks.

  • I will drop in on that chat as well.


  • Doomer Support – Would be glad to move discussion to forum but my stupid ass can’t figure out how to post.

    Thought I had to register – captcha is like a rubics cube and then it tells me to put in Guy’s postal code in all CAPS.

    Help a brutha out.

  • Thought I had to register – captcha is like a rubics cube and then it tells me to put in Guy’s postal code in all CAPS.

    RE, can you help him out? You’ve been handling the forum setup while I concentrate on the Blog migration.

    Have a meeting for an hour (damn day job), will be back then.

  • “Doomer Support – Would be glad to move discussion to forum but my stupid ass can’t figure out how to post.

    Thought I had to register – captcha is like a rubics cube and then it tells me to put in Guy’s postal code in all CAPS.

    Help a brutha out.”

    I added the Postal Code Question. :) I figured that is something Guy’s regulars know and Spammers wouldn’t. It is AZ

    DS and I both added posts to the thread over there already.


  • But Guy lives in New Mexico :}

    Unless “Somewhere in New Mexico Before the End of Time” is a purposeful misdirection so the zombies don’t come into the desert to steal his cabbage.

  • RE: I’m registered – just waiting approval.


    Anyone wondering why this spam is still here – I changed the link to one of the spammers competitors… >:)

  • To FriedrichKling

    I wanted to respond that I saw your Monarch/milkweed offer when you originally posted it and would have been very pleased to get seeds except for the fact that the property I am on is awash in milkweed. We have been actively transplanting young plants and leaving be the bigger plants almost wherever they care to grow.

    Unfortunately I only saw one Monarch the entire year,anywhere. It is more that sad.

  • But Guy lives in New Mexico :}

    I corrected that, and changed the question text to “State code” instead of postal code”.

    I will be modding the forum to use a better anti-spam system, probably next weekend when I have some time.

  • This blog is filled with inner man, inner forces, changing minds, mentalism, spirits/spirtualities, & free will that Skinner openly scorned.

    INNER MAN will do it.

    Skinner contended;

    “The function of the inner man is to provide an explanation which will not be explained in turn. Explanation stops with him. He is not a mediator between past history & current behavior.


    When I suggest Skinner’s very reasonable position to well meaning friends who have swallowed the so-called cognitive revolution, they are incredulous that I am so dated & completely out of the with-it loop of the cognitive revolution.

    The so-called Cognittive Revolution is a return to mystifying mentalism & its DE-politicizing consequences are gigantic.

    Many otherwise bright & sincere people profess the most preposterous mentalistic solutions – filled with Platonic foo-foo & ancient Greek free-will.

    Professed intellectuals routinely resort to “autonomous inner man” solutions in all manner of contrived attempts to reverse the course of material & physical events.

    Force = mass x the acceleration of ideas???

    The 2nd law of thermodynamics is NOT a law?

    Yes, I know all about the mystifying cognitive revolution.

    The spontaneous generation of maggots is UNscientific hogwash, but the spontaneous generation of world-changing-IDEAS from the all causative inner man is brilliant new age cognitive science?

  • OOPS! :)

    Thanks DS for fixing that booboo.

    DS approved you. Just sign in and post up. Go to the thread, then hit the “Reply” button at the bottom of the page or the “quote” button in each of the posts. If you hit the quote button the text of the post you are replying to will be included in each post.

    Also folks, I just discovered if you use an Android Phone, WP won’t recognize the Catpcha Code.


  • @DS – Count me among the computer illiterate, I don’t have a clue how to navigate your “forum”. I’ll just limp along with the old comments format, as long as it lasts…

    @Gerald S. – I feel sorry for Skinner – trapped in his own materialist, logical positivist, narrow little box, much like a torture cell. No way anyone will ever get me to squeeze in there with him!

  • My post just now did not print?

  • Mike said:

    “My post just now did not print?”

    For some reason, it was flagged as spam. Not sure why. Your IP address matches your email address, the address is not on a ban list, and it was not caught with any of the newer filters I put in place. Must be something native to the anti-spam in WP. I’ll research further.

    I’ve turned on the “if you have a previously approved comment, you don’t get checked as spam” feature to see if that works. Let us know if you still see a delay. Obviously, if this allows more spam though I’ll turn off the native version and see about a white list for regular posters.

  • Thanks DS. Your help is much appreciated.

  • @ Gerald Spezio

    When I suggest Skinner’s very reasonable position to well meaning friends …..they are incredulous that I am so dated…

    Well, what a surprise !

    Perhaps you should listen to your well meaning friends, Gerald Spezio, and stop spouting utter bullshit here. Skinner’s Behaviousism is totally discredited, being as obsolete as phrenology, and seen by decent reasonable compassionate people as one of the most evil and unpleasant expressions of ‘science’ that we have seen, along with Pavlov’s experiments on dogs and children, and the Nazi doctors experiments in the concentration camps.

    Skinner’s ideas were demolished in the 1950s by Noam Chomsky, which is why he attained fame, and why he is the most cited scientist in history.

    So the fact that you bring up Skinner’s ideas HERE, NOW, and expect to be taken seriously indicates to ME (and not for the first time) that you have no idea what you are talking about.

  • The problem I am having with all the responses to our world crisis and certain civilizational collapse is that however cleverly thought out they are, they are totally inadequate to the massive and pervasive disaster we are facing. Even if a small number of humans could survive for a time in a devastated and poisoned world, what consolation is that? Every survivalist scheme only leaves me feeling more certain that our goose is cooked. And every new piece of information that comes to me indicates how much worse our situation is than it seemed the day before. We are on a slide towards extinction of such magnitude and momentum that it dwarfs any efforts possible to avert it. The dark wave of this planetary tsunami will destroy everything in its path. That’s a real downer. Unfortunately, not all nice things are true, and not all true things are nice…

  • And yet, there has been so much that is true and beautiful and good in our long history here. If this be the Gotterdammerung of humankind, let us bow to all of that in gratitude, even as the flames rise higher and the music of our doom becomes more insistent, let us celebrate while we may all that was truly awesome in our days in the sun…

    Merry Christmas my fellow beach-goers!

  • @ mike k

    The dark wave of this planetary tsunami will destroy everything in its path.

    Yes. NTE. Which is what I told you when you first arrived, and what you didn’t accept because you thought there was a chance that you/we could raise people’s consciousness, or there were other unknown forces, or whatever…

    But I see this in geological time. It may take 100 years until the last person is left. That’s still ‘instant’ in geological terms. But, for us, it’s quite long, it means we still have to fill out our days and nights with doing something. It’s not for me to say what that should be. Everyone has to decide for themselves.

    The way I see it, if you look closely at the previous mass extinction events we seem to have ticked all the boxes and then added a few more on top, like conventional and nuclear and biological and chemical war.

    The speed of change is pretty much unprecedented in the entire history of the planet except for impacts from outer space. Seems to me highly unlikely that anything much will be able to adapt to keep up, except for the ones that reproduce really fast and are very tolerant of a wide range of extreme conditions.

    For the moment, we have peak everything. That’s absolutely amazing. That that should happen in my lifetime and I get to see all this, is astounding, and horrifying… makes me dizzy…

    I’m not sure if these folks are invoking demons or dispelling demons, but I like the shamanic vibe..