Attitude During Collapse And Living In The Wild

by Bud Nye, who retired as a psychiatric nurse and from teaching high school physics, chemistry, and biology. He now works at learning and practicing permaculture, natural building, and living in the wild.

This idea clashes severely with the narcissistic, human-centered, human supremacist beliefs so rampant in our society today: any humans who survive the economic, social, ecological, peak oil, global warming, and nuclear collapses, now well in progress, must ultimately live within the energy limits of daily sunlight while sharing that sunlight with millions of other species. With this idea severe internal clashes often occur within people on at least two fronts. First, “Collapses? What collapses? There is no economic, social, or ecological collapse! We have plenty of oil and other fossil fuels. And certainly there are no global warming or nuclear-related collapses!” Second, “Humans must live within the energy limits of daily sunlight while sharing it? You mean like primitive Stone Age people did?! That is ridiculous! We cannot and will not go back!” (said as if we have some choice about this).

In this short essay I will not attempt to change anyone’s thinking about these issues that come directly from a number of irrational beliefs related to human superiority and civilizational “progress.” Here, I start with the assumption that the reader understands and accepts that these now global scale and interrelated collapse processes threaten the continuing viability of our species along with so many others. I assume that the reader accepts that in the long term if any humans survive — and most likely very few, if any, will — because of biological ecosystem energy and other constraints they will have to live within the limits of the daily sunlight within their local geographic area, dramatically unlike the way so many humans live today. For fundamental biological reasons, any surviving humans will eventually have to live in the wild at a Stone Age level of technology.

Assuming that a person has reached this point in their thinking, what skill has the most importance in adapting to collapse and learning to live in the wild? I would like to suggest that attitude does. What one thinks, the appraisals that they make of their situation, proves critically important. But how can we help ourselves and others learn to find old, unhelpful, habitual ways of thinking that cause us trouble and replace this thinking with more effective thinking, with more effective beliefs? Unfortunately, we teach and learn these things only with great difficulty. Even so, our thinking habits, our mental attitude, largely determine whether we will find learning and adapting to collapse and a living in the wild situation painful, debilitating, and uncomfortable experience, or a relaxing and invigorating one. Two people with the same physical makeup, the same knowledge, and the same skills for adapting to collapse or living in the wild can view the same situation in two quite different ways; thus, they will have two entirely different experiences. If one views the situation with contempt, fear, and negativity then they will live and experience that, but if they view the situation with a positive frame of mind, then they will have more positive results and experiences.

What does “a positive frame of mind” mean? I mean for it to refer to existential courage. Meanwhile, a vast difference exists between what we commonly know today as “positive thinking” and existential courage. The habit of positive thinking, an optimistic bias, undermines preparedness and invites disaster. This paragraph from Barbara Ehrenreich’s wonderful, must-read book, Bright-Sided, How Positive Thinking Is UNDERMINING America (2009) emphasizes this point:

But if early capitalism was inhospitable to positive thinking, “late” capitalism, or consumer capitalism, is far more congenial, depending as it does on the individual’s hunger for more and the firms’ imperative for growth. The consumer culture encourages individuals to want more — cars, larger homes, television sets, cell phones, gadgets of all kinds — and positive thinking is ready at hand to tell them they deserve more and can have it if they really want it and are willing to make the effort to get it. Meanwhile, in a competitive business world, the companies that manufacture these goods and provide the paychecks that purchase them have no alternative but to grow. If you don’t steadily increase market share and profits, you risk being driven out of business or swallowed by a larger enterprise. Perpetual growth, whether of a particular company or an entire economy, is of course an absurdity, but positive thinking makes it seem possible, if not ordained.

The perfection of certain skills forms the basis for the existential courage that I refer to, not what most people so often think of today as “positive thinking”. When one perfects the needed thinking and behavioral skills, the person coping with collapse and learning to live in the wild has a significantly easier and more comfortable time. This in itself builds confidence and subsequently more existential courage. Conversely haphazard and ineffective skills build negative appraisals and reduce courage while the ever-so-popular positive thinking produces out of touch with reality denial often accompanied by self-blame.

We need to build reality-based adaptive attitudes (the things we think and believe) along with skills related to the things we do. Each reinforces the other. Having done this, people will no longer start from a place of negativity and lack, but instead come from a place of confidence and skill. One of my favorite quotes, by Carl Sagan, relates directly to this: “It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

Much more influences mental attitude than just physical skills and their perfection. First, people must realize that they have control of their environment. Certainly the weather, topography, and many other conditions remain beyond our control, but ultimately we each have the ability — or responsibility — to control much that relates to our coping with collapse, living in the wild, comfort, and capacity to change. Second, we must realize they we have a choice — a choice to make things better or allow them to remain the same. It remains up to each of us how we choose to view any given situation and what we choose to do about it. We need to know and remember that our attitude, itself, remains a matter of choice — and that an attitude that hurts us emotionally or practically amounts to a very poor choice indeed.

I think that one of the most important lessons related to coping with collapse and living in the wild involves people learning that they have choices. Not only does this fit into the worlds of coping with collapse and living in the wild but it also applies to people’s presently more everyday lives. People soon realize that in everything they do, think, say, or feel, the outcomes — certainly the emotional outcomes — depend largely on their own choices. It remains their choice to feel happy or sad, comfortable, or uncomfort¬able, to “pass” or to “fail.” They have the choice to take control of their responses and not remain passive victims of circumstances, including what other people may think, feel, say, or do. All life, all happiness, remains a series of choices. The invaluable benefit gained in realizing and remembering this involves the fact that with these choices there soon comes a deep belief in “the self”: that infinitely complex microbial community that comes from and connects with all other life on Earth. People soon understand that many more things become possible — certainly not anything! — if they believe strongly enough in themselves and their choices. No greater basic lessons for a happy life exist than fundamental, basic mental attitudes, for once mastered all else comes much more easily.

One of the best ways to teach ourselves and others that we have control and choice involves rewording our everyday questions. When someone makes a statement that they feel cold, for example, we can ask why they choose to feel cold and what they can do about it. This way the responsibility becomes the individual’s and they need to make the choice to do something about the cold. If they still choose to feel cold and blame it on circumstances outside of the self, teach them that they have the choice and model for them what they can do about it. As you build a fire, or shelter, or find or make better clothing, emphasize how you make conscious choices — choices to feel warm — to do something about the problem. You do not passively blame it on outside circumstances but take responsibility and choose to change things for the better.

It remains important also to teach ourselves and others that during a collapse or living in the wild situation, we would best learn to separate our wants from our needs. Show them that choosing to concentrate on wants will only make things worse, for we can never fulfill all our wants. Teach them first to take care of their needs, and to appreciate all those things that help them to take care of those needs. In essence, help them not to concentrate on what they don’t have but to appreciate what they do have. In this same flow of thought, we can also help people understand that comfort exists in a relative way. In other words, feeling comfortable all depends on what we think, believe, and choose.

For some true-life examples of the principles discussed here, just a few of many possible examples, read Endurance, Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage by Alfred Lansing, about Ernest Shackleton and his crew’s two-year survival in the Antarctic after ice crushed their ship Endurance. And/or read Almost Too Late, The True Story of a Father and His Three Teenage Children Shipwrecked off the Coast of Alaska in Winter by Elmo Wortman. And/or read Shackleton’s Forgotten Men, The Untold Tale of an Antarctic Tragedy by Lennard Bickel about the Ross Sea party.

McPherson’s radio interview with Equal Time Radio from 14 February 2014 is here

McPherson’s Skype-based interview with Conspiracy HQ’s Rob Daven from 14 February 2014 is embedded below


You are invited you to a special screening of “Quietly into Disaster — A Plea for Survival” at the International Uranium Film Festival in New York City. It is a very moving German Anti-Nuclear Documentary. Produced by Germany’s most renowned Nuclear critic Holger Strohm, based on his epochal bestseller “Friedlich in die Katastrophe.”

One of the oldest Anti-Nuclear Activist in the USA, Frances Crowe said, it’s the strongest and most honest Anti-Nuclear movie she has ever seen.

The screening takes place on 19 February 2014 at 9:00 p.m. at The Pavilion Theater on 188 Prospect Park West in Brooklyn, New York. Read more here and view the trailer here.

Thursday, 20 February 2014, 5:15 p.m., Singer room, Eugene Public Library, 100 West 10th Avenue, Eugene, Oregon, “Climate Chaos & Resistance to Ecocide: Talks by Guy McPherson and Deep Green Resistance”

Friday, 21 February 2104, 7:00 p.m., Vancouver Public Library, 901 C Street Vancouver, Washington, “Climate Chaos & Resistance to Ecocide: Talks by Guy McPherson and Deep Green Resistance”

DGR February 2014

Saturday, 22 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., Bellingham Public Library, 210 Central Avenue Bellingham, Washington, “Climate Chaos”

Monday, 24 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., Odd Fellows Hall, 112 Haven Road, Eastsound, Washington (on Orcas Island), “Climate Chaos

Wednesday, 26 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., San Juan Island Library, 1010 Guard Street, Friday Harbor, Washington, “Climate Change and Resistance

Thursday, 27 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., King’s Books, 218 St. Helens Ave, Tacoma, Washington, reading excerpts and signing Going Dark. Announcement here. (Donation for space and expenses appreciated.)

Friday, 28 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., Traditions Cafe, 300 5th Avenue SW, Olympia, Washington, “How Shall We Act in Light of Climate Chaos?”


Friday, 7 March 2014, Antigone Books, 411 North 4th Avenue, Tucson, Arizona, reading excerpts and signing Going Dark

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 7-day seminar, 24-31 May 2014, Moho Creek, Belize, Central America.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 14-day seminar, 12-25 June 2014, Izabal, Guatemala, Central America.

Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power and by more than 20 readers at Amazon.

Comments 89

  • Well, I’m burning my first post right off the bat today:

    In the previous thread, Tom says:


    In order to maintain my saneness,
    I’m tracking what’s coming that’s heinous;
    But when this word occurs,
    It simply refers
    To stuff which comes out of Uranus.

  • “When someone makes a statement that they feel cold, for example, we can ask why they choose to feel cold and what they can do about it.”

    Or maybe they are just talking because that’s what people do, they aren’t looking for a “solution” to their being cold, they are just stating a complaint for no earthly reason beyond stating a complaint which isn’t much of a complaint to begin with and being a dick about it isn’t the best course of action.

    As I have mentioned before on various posts, I have no interest in “surviving.” Getting by in life in a day by day hunt for food and shelter doesn’t strike me as much of life at all. Am I willing to walk over a mile to fetch water to bring home to boil so I have water to drink? If it comes to that, sure. But it’s not something I look forward to doing and it’s not something that will make me a “better” or “stronger” person either. I’m much better off figuring out how to manage where I am instead of running into the woods and playing at Indian Chief while the world crumbles. I’m staying put in Chicago, come what may. If I do end up fleeing the city, it won’t be because I found a better place to live in the Canadian Rockies, it will be because I’ve been forced out by the Uber Rich and my new home will most likely be a prison or a death camp. But I will worry about that when the time comes.

  • @ Grant: you are correct sir, there is no escaping Industrial Civilization. We cannot all run naked into the woods gathering nuts and berries.

    Those in the Transition Towns and the Intentional Communities will be overrun by the marauding hordes – and individuals hunkered down with their families and a one year supply of water and freeze dried food will live one year longer than most – as long as they don’t get sick.

  • Hello Bud,
    I know what you mean when you talk about existential courage. It expresses what I use to live by now from day to day very well. Anybody here will most likely agree with that because that’s what you do when you’re not deluded. But I won’t need that courage when things get really bad because I will not survive, want to or need to. I could imagine living in the “wild” but not a wilderness denuded of plants, animals and clean water. It would not be like the Stone Age when there was relatively plenty for very few human animals. Just image the huge sea bird colonies that a band of hunter-gathers would come across and the seafood that could be gathered at low tide, etc, etc. All that protein, never mind the hunting of animals and gathering of plants. These small bands would have had very little impact on their environment. However, this 6th extinction will be very different, I think almost unimaginably different, even for so-called bottleneck survivors. No more sea bird colonies and nothing left in an acid sea. Why would anyone want to survive that? And how can you prepare yourself for that? Live as best as you can NOW, because in reality this is all we’ve got. That’s really all anyone can do. The rest is illusion (delusion),just another utopian myth, something the human animal seems to need because culture teaches us (especially our Western culture) that future is everything. Whether it’s the Christian faith in redemption and afterlife, Humanist faith in progress or faith in a chance of surviving the 6th extinction, however slight, it’s all the same to me. According to RE here, I’m a quitter. You’re not. Why is it important for our species to survive?
    I’ve been a keen “gatherer” here in my immediate environment for decades and know where the edible plants and fungi grow. I gather and use them now. I even “farm” them in a way by cutting certain herbage to encourage new tender growth, spreading the spores of fungi etc., something my grandmother taught me and that’s probably what hunter-gatherers did. Contrary to popular belief, they were not nomadic but stayed in a familiar place precisely because the could do what I just described, and a hell of a lot better than I ever could. You need to know and be sure of a relatively stable environment if you’re seriously living of it. You need to nurture and “cultivate” it (forest gardening?). How will you be able to do that in an environment that will change out of all proportion? And FAST. Sorry about the attitude. I wish you well.

  • Good post Bud,I have to say I have come to realize that the only people who will survive are those whose minds have not totally been corrupted by this culture,and that is going to be very few.
    Myself I try to live outside as much as possible,after awhile you start to realize that being happy is just a mental state of being at peace with the environment you are in.I think some of the current homeless will survive much longer than most,they have acquired the skills and mindset long ago.
    Good reading list, any long term survival story’s you will see they all have the same mindset is way they made it.

  • Well, i guess i was the bad-person on the last thread that went over the rule. i’ll stick to it, but i must explain that when i post a comment, occassionally it doesn’t get posted right away so i don’t know if it’s gone into the ether or it’s being quarantined, so i may post another right away (and that too may or may not “take”). But, all that aside, i’m guilty and so this will be my only post today on this thread.

    Why don’t we stick Tom in the penalty box and not let him post at all this week? Sound good? Would that make everyone happy?

    It’s not like anyone needs my comments, so i don’t mind. Like it’s going to make any difference . . .

    i wanted to comment on the essay, but i’ll let it go until some other time.

  • “For fundamental biological reasons, any surviving humans will eventually have to live in the wild at a Stone Age level of technology.”

    “It remains important also to teach ourselves and others that during a collapse or living in the wild situation, we would best learn to separate our wants from our needs.

    Violence was pretty high during the stone age, as skeletal remains indicate. Somehow I think verbal re-framing counseling would rapidly bow to more antique primate drives.

  • Is quietism a “positive frame of mind”? Because it sure acts like one. Since my own ecological quietism has deepened, I’ve been having more and more “positive results and experiences”. Unlike when I was fighting and resisting tooth and nail, when all I could feel was rage and all I could taste was bile. Definitely unpleasant. Giving up the struggle definitely leave more open emotional space for positive experiences,

    “Don’t just do something, sit there!”

  • @ Paul Chefurka

    I think there are a lot of jobs, where the hardest part is just showing up, getting to work every day, year after year.

    I think a lot of people won’t like this, won’t want to admit it, they want something glamorous, spiritual exotic, but maybe the big deal about zen is just showing up every day.

    You make a contract with your zafu. That’s the hard part. Keeping it. Just sitting for no reason because that’s the deal. 90% of it.

    And then one day, when you’ve forgotten why you are doing it. That’s when something jumps out and grabs you :-)

  • One thing you can say for sure about Shackleton and his crew, they weren’t QUITTERS! :)

    I agree with Bud that in the long term, rewilding will be the most likely be the necessary outcome. However, medium term I think Scavenging is the more effective methodology. All that Automotive Glass that can be repurposed for Greenhouses! Glass lasts a LONG time, there are stained glass windows in Cathedrals a millenia old now.

    Far as the Zombie Horde goes, they will mostly bring their own numbers down quite rapidly. Zombies are unlikely to organize well either. Just another one of the challenges to be faced here.


  • What’s wrong with being a quitter? I’ve never understood that particular judgement.

  • “Giving up the struggle definitely leave more open emotional space for positive experiences,…”

    Nice to hear.

    “Don’t just do something, sit there!”

    Ditto. But I wonder if it would be the same to say, “Don’t try to do something, just do something.” (Not sure about that.)

    I like to use the Woody Allen saying (to paraphrase) that 90% of life is just showing up. With not a single other thought in mind…

  • @ Paul

    Hahaha, well for a start, it’s an ad hom.

    This just arrived on the Climate Summary, from ‘a scientist’.

    And that’s McPherson’s thing— despair. We’re absolutely doomed, he tells us, and there’s nothing we can do about it. Everything is lost. He derides any sort of optimism or action as “hopium”.

    I wish they’s actually LISTEN to what Guy says. I suppose that’s too much to ask. Too difficult to get their heads around.

  • “What’s wrong with being a quitter? I’ve never understood that particular judgement.”-PC

    Do you like to play Chess? I do.


  • RE:

    No, I don’t play competitive games. when forced to play, I usually throw the game.

  • Giving up the struggle definitely leave more open emotional space for positive experiences

    Paul C.:
    The interplay that heretofore constituted “the struggle” may continue, but it is no longer recognised as a “struggle”.

    Also you are probably aware, any experience is just that, an experience, constrained by time, space & causation: it remains in the realm of duality of experiencer – experience, connected through experiencing. The realisation is that there was nothing to be realised, since what was to be realised has always been fully “here & now” beginningless & endless. Anyone who displays even the least indication of a sense of having “achieved something” has missed the mark.

    And thenceforth there can neither be quitting nor non-quitting. For both are rooted in expectations. Grokked by all too few. In others, NBL’s message can be expected to evoke despair.

  • @ Paul Chefurka: Haha throw the game, good one! :D


    Acceptance does not make a quitter,
    And nearing it, maybe one’s fitter
    Than one who denies
    That his own lying eyes
    Sees the world going straight down the shitter.

  • 12-step programs are good for anyone desiring sanity in the face of insanity. The individuals in these groups are probably some of the most prepared for this, attitude-wise. I used to wonder if these groups were lacking because they seemed in denial of important political and global issues. Now I realize how futile that focus would have been. Go to an open meeting and listen to these folks. You will be amazed in the peace and good will you will find there.

  • Great article Bud, and equally great response Sabine. Nobody knows what the future will be like. My choices will be to bring comfort to as many as possible and hopefully to die in peace.

  • @Tom. It’s OK man. Screw ’em. we ALL make a goof now and again. Personally, I look forward to your reports. They save me a lot of time that I don’t really have. Keep up the good work. Remember that only if you never do anything will you never have to take a any hits. And, though the two post rule is a good thing, I can understand how one can EASILY over post if they think their hard work has just been devoured by creatures from the cibervoid warp!

  • @ TR

    Here’s a different tune to the same theme, this one by Irvin Berlin

    “Let’s Face the Music and Dance”

    There may be trouble ahead
    But while there’s moonlight
    And music and love and romance
    Let’s face the music and dance

    Before the fiddlers have fled
    Before they ask us to pay the bill
    And while you still have the chance
    Let’s face the music and dance

    Soon, we’ll be without the moon
    Humming a different tune, and then

    There may be teardrops to shed
    So while there’s moonlight and music and love and romance
    Let’s face the music and dance, dance
    Let’s face the music and dance

  • Just letting everyone know I’m still here… busy in my new situation. Working to help save some endangered monkeys… at least to help them keep going a little while longer… doing the best we can do for them, I suppose. I watched one the other day, lounging on a provided hammock up near the top of her enclosure, some 20 feet or more up, soaking in the penetrating warmth of the sun after several snappy cold nights here in north central Florida. The sense of relaxed easy comfort and complete satisfaction with all that is, with all that ever was and will ever be emanated from that monkey like an obvious, impossible to deny, matter of fact. She was clearly as happy and as content as any living being will ever be. Watching her, that feeling had to, and did, wash over me. I was a bit ashamed to be worried about anything.

    Meanwhile, regarding the current post, two points:

    1) I doubt there is anyplace left on this planet that could accurately be called “the wild”. All the Edens have been diminished if not totally destroyed. There is no “wild” anymore. There are no naturally abundant, fertile, pristine places where humans can live with the relative ease of our ancestors. They’re gone. Parking lots and brownfields. Toxic oceans. Livestock eroded landscapes to feed the dead meat habit. The best remaining places are spoken for, and are well guarded, and will remain so, at least until human extinction is immanent.

    2) It takes actual experience to really understand true physical hardship, or torture, or starvation, or disease — not some Sunday book reading practiced by a momentarily privileged aloof observer sitting in a plush recliner lounge. Sometimes people live in their heads to such an excess that they lose physical contact with all other forms of interaction with the world, and apparently come to believe that life is just an act of mental gymnastics. They have no sense of the lack of agency, of the powerlessness experienced by the downtrodden, the homeless, the victims of aggressive warfare. Their carpets are too thick, their cupboards too full. Many of this ilk even loudly deny that there is victimization in this world – that all experiences are choices. Or the contortion that the nature of any experience is simply a matter of choice. To me such propaganda is clearly devoid of reality, and quite insane… but it serves the interests of victimizers quite well. There are varying degrees of choice that any person has in life which depend upon access to resources, to power, to alliances like family ties and old boy networks. Clearly an average poor person living in Haiti doesn’t have the same choices as the rich person who sails by on their blue water yacht… or many would certainly sail away from their troubles double-quick. Don’t try to tell me that the suffering is all in their heads, and fixable in there. I have known imposed hardship. I know what it is to be exploited for unearned profit by scum. To have the fruits of my labor stolen. Don’t tell me there are no victims in this world. Look at all the species that are being driven to extinction. Don’t try to tell me they chose it. That its all in their heads.

  • Robin said

    “. Anyone who displays even the least indication of a sense of having “achieved something” has missed the mark”

    How can anyone miss the mark when everything and all is The Way?

    (see, anyone can do it)

    Animism and heathenism are so much more healthier for the enviroment than either bible-based dogmas or Buddhism and Hinduism. Too bad the world adopted the wrong ‘faiths’

  • “RE:

    No, I don’t play competitive games. when forced to play, I usually throw the game.”-PC

    That explains why you don’t understand the judgement. Some folks enjoy competition, and quitting spoils the fun. If you have never understood this, then it’s not in your personality type.

    This probably comes from both Nature and Nurture. I remember when I first finally beat my father at Chess. I was about 8 and it was after 3 straight years of losses. My dad was very competitive, and he didn’t give me any breaks to let me win once in a while. We still played a while after that, but then I started beating him all the time. Then he would no longer play with me. He Quit.

    So anyhow, a lot of this is learned behavior, but the underlying personality type of being competitive by nature has a genetic component for sure. If you don’t have this nature, you can’t comprehend the people that do. Just as I find it hard to comprehend people who quit and don’t want to compete.


  • @Kirk, @Benjamin — Since Brother Benjamin appears to have moved on to this new thread, and taken no note of our efforts left behind, I’ll deposit my latest herewith, where it may meet with the opprobrium its detractors may wish upon it. (And at just a stroke before midnight, too, for #2)

    “No, I Was Not Born Under a Rhyming Planet” — Benedick, “Much Ado About Nothing”

    Guy lives in a house of adobe
    And he’s never met no one named Moby
    But he’s written a thrilla
    Like “King Kong” or “Godzilla”:
    Mess with Nature and she gives you the Gobi(es).

    I hope to go over the Scott Johnson article later, and once again resolve to learn about living in the wild

  • @ RE

    If you don’t have this nature, you can’t comprehend the people that do. Just as I find it hard to comprehend people who quit and don’t want to compete.

    Of course one can comprehend them. In your case, one can comprehend that you’re stuck in some immature adolescent thing where you’re still competing with your father.

    Thing is, the end of life on Earth, the premature death of billions of humans, all that suffering, the vanishing of all the superb creatures, is not a fucking board game, is it, and who would want to spend time with someone who treats LIFE as a competition ?

    It’s such a shallow and egocentric stance towards existence. It blocks out all the other much richer and more profound possibilities, all the OTHER ways of being and relating.

    This is a fundamental philosophical matter which you are incapable of grasping. Which, it appears, almost all Americans and those infected with the dominant cultural western capitalist paradigm are incapable of grasping.

    Jensen mentioned it in the video I posted, where he’s talking to Hedges, re epistemology, and young men who can only see a woman as a walking orifice, and business men who can only see a forest as something to be cut down and turned into paper pulp.

    The farmers here are like that re birds and trees. They have no idea what their names are, or what they do. The only relevance of wildlife is if it might effect business. So long as it doesn’t it might as well not exist.

    Your attitude, wanting to compete, blocks out the possibility of any alternative or deeper or more sensitive relationship, so you lead an impoverished existence, without ever knowing why.

    The capitalist imperialist conquering nations, French, Spanish, Americans, Dutch, British, never thought about the people and places they invaded except in terms of taking the land and whatever was valuable. Long afterwards, when they’d destroyed the cultures and killed most of the people, some of them were slightly curious and wondered who those people were and what they’d been like.

    That was their priority, just like your priority is playing chess. You’re stuck. Everybody else finds it boring, unless they want to play chess too.

    When I said that you are like a mewling child on the other thread, it’s because you are stuck in this sort of adolescent operational mode, which is, from a philosophical perspective, very shallow and crude.

    You replied that you’re not interested in navel gazing because it’s not practical, or something to that effect.

    But again, that’s a shallow stance, and also typical of this modern destructive culture. If something isn’t useful, if it doesn’t make money, then what good is it ?

    ‘navel gazing’, introspection, is obviously ‘a waste of time’, does not produce anything.

    But, you see, some people ask deeper questions, which lead to deeper questions. And they find that your very superficial viewpoint is tedious and trivial.

    There is nothing wrong with chess, it’s a fantastic game. To compete to win, on the battlefield. I was obsessed by that game for some time. But to apply that attitude, that approach, that sort of mind, to all things, to all situations, keeps you confined, keeps you very limited.

    There are so many OTHER ways of being and relating.

    Pupils who come to martial arts teachers always want to show off their best moves. Really good martial arts teachers forbid them ever to do their best moves again, and force them to do their worst moves, because it’s their weakness that needs to be practiced.

    So I’d say, what are you WORST at, RE ? Start being good at that. Fuck all this competitive chess.

    I mean, can you just walk about, completely relaxed and at ease, for no reason or purpose ?

  • Bruce: Yes. You want to know what I want. I’ll tell you what I want. I want back what Bobby Fischer took with him when he disappeared.

    I want back what Bobby Fischer took with him when he disappeared.

    There’s the problem right there. Those who succeed as Fischer did, find they don’t own their own success. Instead, the world takes it as its own. And the celebrity comes to be owned also, such that they no longer even own their lives (or even their faces). And the celebrity will be fêted by the professional courtiers, and interviewed by the good and the great, flattered and praised, and, if he should stumble, thrown from his pedestal and ripped apart.

    But The New York Times calls it a “tragedy” that Fischer wouldn’t, for complex reasons that touch on madness, continue to play and wow audiences with his art.

    A quitter like me regards it as a greater tragedy that he quit for the wrong reasons, not that he quit.

  • Benjamin: keep up the great, inspiring, limericks!

    Henry: good one!

    Kirk: thanks. i’ll do one today (though there’s at least 10 i’d like to post).

    Bud: thanks for your essay. I can’t see myself “going wild” unless I was brought up that way – too many skills to learn for an old guy like me. Secondly, I don’t think our biosphere is going to support aerobic life for much longer, so all the permaculture in the world isn’t going to help, after a while, if nothing will grow. You keep up the good work though, and best of luck! Live as long as you can.

    A mysterious cluster of severe birth defects in rural Washington state is confounding health experts, who say they can find no cause, even as reports of new cases continue to climb.

    Federal and state officials won’t say how many women in a three-county area near Yakima, Wash., have had babies with anencephaly, a heart-breaking condition in which they’re born missing parts of the brain or skull. And they admit they haven’t interviewed any of the women in question, or told the mothers there’s a potentially widespread problem.

    But as of January 2013, officials with the Washington state health department and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had counted nearly two dozen cases in three years, a rate four times the national average.

    Since then, one local genetic counselor, Susie Ball of the Central Washington Genetics Program at Yakima Valley Memorial Hospital, says she has reported “eight or nine” additional cases of anencephaly and spina bifida, another birth defect in which the neural tube, which forms the brain and spine, fails to close properly.

    “It does strike me as a lot,” says Ball.

    And at least one Yakima mother whose baby is part of the cluster says no one told her there was a problem at all.

    “I had no idea,” said Andrea Jackman, 30, whose blue-eyed daughter, Olivia, was born in September with the most severe form of spina bifida. “I honestly was really surprised that nobody had said anything. If my doctor hadn’t wanted us to see the geneticist, I wouldn’t have known.” [read the rest]

    (Radiation comes to mind, but there are other factors which could have a more immediate effect, like contaminated water, etc. Let’s see if we ever hear an explanation for it – or whether this or any other type of defect is seen in clusters elsewhere in the country.)

  • Well said (or reflected)..

    Agency on Demand? Holmgren, Hopkins, and the Historical Problem of Agency

  • Re: Maybe your dad quit because even as an eight year old you were a sore winner.

    Martin: Yeah, while Fischer loved chess, he couldn’t stand the fishbowl life of a “Chess Champion” which was blown into a huge Cold War circus of showing how the US was superior to the USSR. So it is important to know the time and circumstances around Fischer and not just focus upon him escaping the media limelight.

    Glen Gould, the pianist, also found that while music brought him great joy being a celebrity was lethal to him. He felt the spotlight on him detracted from the music, so he stopped giving concerts and faded out.

  • Bud, nice essay.
    I totally agree with you.
    Everything is in the attitude.

    Regarding the so called “quitters”.

    To be a “quitter” it is required a path, a way, something supposed to be (the correct, or commonly accepted) way. A path that somebody decides not to follow, and quit.
    The incoming collapse is something yet unknown. As I said before, you cannot be prepared for the unknown. So you can´t be a quitter today when facing the unknown future. There is no •correct” path to follow yet.
    I can (based in my own personal) view somebody as a quitter, but that is only from my viewpoint. Based on what I see (and guess) as the correct way. I guess that is what RE does when he calls somebody “quitter”.
    A quitter is a very subjective issue. We cannot define the word “quitter” when we talk about NTE. If we even do not know how the process will unfold.

    I can see that what comes ahead is totally out of any capacity to be predicted. There are some ideas based in what we have seen before (and movies and books). But those are mirages. Something that may seem possible to some people, no guarantee. But there´s no way to know today for sure what will happen.
    I have lived partial collapse, and what I saw then makes me accept that whatever comes is something terrible, to say the least. Human nature driven to the lowest level. At the same time, I believe that there is no place far away enough, as in the end, everybody will be looking for it.

    My respect to all of you that have chosen to wait, and see. That is not to me being a quitter. I would call you “cautious” and “practical”.

    Regarding collapse and small business disappearing, I have to say that another sing is the quality of new jobs, that are becoming less and less skilled. To get a College or University grade is less and less useful.

  • The core driving meme behind any ‘plans’ (cough-cough-gag) of ‘surviving’ NTHE is the ironic and frankly arrogant assumption that humans are ‘exceptional’ and ‘deserve’ to survive.

    This perverse idea of human exceptionalism runs through both ends of the spectrum from the psychopathic trans-national ‘rulers’ of the global economy to the survivalist enclaves scattered and sprinkled across the Web like pixie dust, the Diner and it’s main organ grinder monkey RE being only one such orphaned poster child cheer leader.

    The notion is the same, human are exceptional, and Ipso Facto must manifest their god given right to exist in perpetuity, even at the expense of all other living entities.

    From the inner sanctums of the psychopathic trans-national banking mafia gangs to the obsessive self promotional overly verbose rambles of The Diner, homo sapians must rule dudes!

    Herman Melville nailed the nascent symptoms of human exceptionalism (Industrial Disease) that lead to the human battle cry of ‘Moby Dick must die!’

    The proto uber competitor Captain Ahab is a character study of human exceptionalism.

    The Diner Dudes probably think Moby Dick is a socially transmitted disease.

    It’s like that goofy reality tv show about survivalist wet dream fantasies where contestants are ‘voted off the island’ for not being competitive enough to ‘survive’ a contrived situation. Haha

    If all the other species on earth could vote whether or not to boot homo sapiens off the planet, they would overwhelmingly vote to expel the ‘exceptional humans’, forever.

    Well, maybe the rats and cock roaches wouldn’t but we humans would essentially have no allies on earth.

    The Cheese stands alone

    Every creature great or small wouldn’t give a fig if we were gone, every last one of us.

    The collective web of Life of planet earth would heave a common sigh of relief if human exceptionalism vanished forever.

  • “Regarding collapse and small business disappearing, I have to say that another sing is the quality of new jobs, that are becoming less and less skilled. To get a College or University grade is less and less useful.”

    I think there are many alternative ways to prepare the young for life (such as it may be) that don’t require the enormous expense and duration of current education. Of course, a liberal education might be its own reward, job or no job. But I’d suspect that our education establishment is no more appropriate than most other aspects of IC.

    “Every creature great or small wouldn’t give a fig if we were gone, every last one of us.

    The collective web of Life of planet earth would heave a common sigh of relief if human exceptionalism vanished forever.”

    This is an area of uncertainty for me. I see that we’re a part of the web of life and can’t exist beyond it. But we’ve managed to occupy every nice and even get beyond Earth’s gravity. We are causing the 6th extinction all by ourselves. No other form of life seems to compare with such dominance. And I don’t see how any complex life can survive us, as we will use (as we are doing) their very last resources for OUR survival. Doesn’t that mean we can’t save other species if we can’t save ourselves?

  • ” To get a College or University grade is less and less useful.”
    Useful for what? Most of them get shoved into a cubical for 40 years.
    When I was a teenager I noticed all the worst people; the people causing the wars and Eco-destruction all had degrees.

  • “See,” not “Sees” in the above verse of course, dammit.

    Thanks Tom.

    The first time I beat my father at chess, I got schooled real good about gloating.


    Doubling going sequential
    Displays extinction potential,
    Where multiple factors—
    Like heat and reactors—
    Also go exponential.

    Make Chess, Not War

    Chess is like war, it’s been said:
    You fight until one of you’s dead,
    But beating the king
    Isn’t really my thing,
    So I’m beating the bishop instead.

  • How can anyone miss the mark when everything and all is The Way?

    That too.

  • Bud: excellent article.

    I have no delusions about surviving when most others won’t. However, I enjoy being out in the wild and spend as much time there as possible. It’s amazing what a person learns while doing so.

    We have goats: bucks, wethers, and does. The bucks and wethers are let out in the AM and are on their own (on our fenced farm) until they return in afternoon. The doe goats, though, I accompany on their daily outings, and it is during this 2-3 hours that I learn so much. Last year I had been wanting some “slippery elm powder” for a particular herbal use, but just couldn’t bring myself to cut into a healthy, living tree. Then one day while we were out at the edge of the woods, I noticed a rather large whitish area on a nearby tree. On investigation I noticed it was an elm and the tree had a rather large section of the outer bark gnawed off by deer. I could see the symmetrically placed teeth marks and they were at “deer height”. On closer inspection I noticed the top of the tree had been blown down by a storm and would probably not survive. Here was my tree. So I came back later with an ax and shaved off enough for my uses.

    In researching slippery elm (?at I discovered that this inner bark is highly nutritious and can be made into an oatmeal-like food.

    I know a person needs more than oatmeal for survival, but the point in all of this is the incredible learning experience it is to roam in nature. And yeah, I know not everyone can, and even fewer want to.

    My 2 cents and thanks again, Bud.

  • Fukushima

    I got this from an ex-politician of conservative ilk. Something must be changing out there.

  • Here’s a 2008 article about James Lovelock.

    With a good slice of the UK battered by storms and floods, it suspect the timing of the reprint is not accidental.

  • With more dark, open water in the summer, less of the sun’s heat is reflected back into space. So the entire Earth is absorbing more heat than expected, according to a study published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That extra absorbed energy is so big that it measures about one-quarter of the entire heat-trapping effect of carbon dioxide, said the study’s lead author, Ian Eisenman, a climate scientist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in California.

    The Arctic grew 8 per cent darker between 1979 and 2011, Eisenman found, measuring how much sunlight is reflected back into space. “Basically, it means more warming,” Eisenman said in an interview.

    The North Pole region is an ocean that mostly is crusted at the top with ice that shrinks in the summer and grows back in the fall. At its peak melt in September, the ice has shrunk on average by nearly 90,600 square kilometres — an area bigger than New Brunswick and P.E.I. combined — per year since 1979.

  • Artleads,

    I’ll never admit that I’ve heard of Irvin Berlin. I could be giving away my age. LOL

    This does bring back all the old 78 records of my Mother & Aunt.


    February 18, 2014 – GEOLOGY – New research by UC Davis and Oregon State University may soon lead to new forecasts into how soon volcanoes are ready to erupt. Geologists from both schools, publishing a paper online in the journal Nature, have found that in order for an eruption to occur, molten rock under the volcano must be sufficiently mobile. The evidence comes from a study of Oregon’s 11,249-foot-high Mount Hood. The team found that the magma located roughly three miles beneath the surface of the volcanic mountain has been stored in near-solid conditions for thousands of years. However, they say that it takes just a significantly short period – perhaps as little as a few months – for said magma to liquefy and potentially lead to an eruption. Kari Cooper, lead author and an associate professor in the Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences at UC Davis, said that people typically believe there is a big reservoir of liquid magma under a volcano, but the evidence shows that this is not always true. The study team said that mobility of the magma depends on the amount of crystallization. When it is more than about 50 percent crystalline, it becomes immobile. Crystallization, in turn, depends on the temperature of the rock. If the temperature of the solid rock rises to more than 1,328 degrees F, which can happen when hot magma rises up from deeper within the Earth’s crust, an eruption may be imminent. It is exactly this that occurred in Mount Hood’s last two eruptions – 220 and 1,500 years ago, said USO geologist Adam Kent, coauthor of the paper. “If the temperature of the rock is too cold, the magma is like peanut butter in a refrigerator,” Kent said in a statement. “It just isn’t very mobile. For Mount Hood, the threshold seems to be about 750 degrees (C) – if it warms up just 50 to 75 degrees above that, it greatly increases the viscosity of the magma and makes it easier to mobilize.”

    Until this study surfaced, volcanologists have not known how common it is for magma to be crystalline compared to being mobile and eruptible. The new research shows that Mount Hood’s magma is mobile much less than 10 percent of the time. For the study, Cooper, Kent and their colleagues studied rocks ejected from Mount Hood’s previous eruptions. By analyzing the radioactive isotopes and the distribution of trace elements, the team was able to reconstruct the history of the rocks and the conditions they were exposed to before the volcano erupted. The results of their findings could make it much easier for volcanologists to assess when a volcano is ready to blow its top. If eruptible magma is indeed relatively rare, then when it does appear, the risks of an eruption are much higher, Cooper noted. If Mount Hood does become eruptible again, Kent said there is some good news. Past events have shown that the volcano’s eruptions are not particularly violent. Instead of exploding, the magma had oozed out of the peak in previous eruptions. A previous study by Kent and OSU postdoctoral researcher Alison Koleszar found that magma mixing is both a trigger for an eruption and a constraining factor on how violent the eruption will be. “What happens when they mix is what happens when you squeeze a tube of toothpaste in the middle,” said Kent. “A big glob kind of plops out the top, but in the case of Mount Hood – it doesn’t blow the mountain to pieces.” The research team hopes to apply the techniques used in studying Mount Hood with other, larger volcanoes to determine their crystalline behaviors. If the evidence holds true for other volcanoes, then it could lead to better eruption forecasting. –Red Orbit

  • “Do you like to play Chess? I do.


    I’m not going to pretend I know much about chess, but I hear that, beyond a certain level, it might be considered a bit vulgar to play a match through to the bitter end when you know there is no possibility of winning? Of course, you have to be beyond that certain level to even know there is no possibility of winning.
    I don’t know if the chess analogy can stretch to monkey versus biosphere…Anyway, IMO, on this planet it’s always five-nil to the fuckwits… Nature loves a man in uniform.

  • Elderly nun sentenced to nearly three years for Tennessee nuclear break-in

    Excerpt: “KNOXVILLE, Tenn. – A U.S. judge sentenced an 84-year-old nun, Sister Megan Rice, on Tuesday to 35 months in prison for breaking into a Tennessee defense facility where enriched uranium for nuclear bombs is stored.

    Fellow peace activists Michael Walli and Greg Boertje-Obed were sentenced to 62 months in prison. The three were convicted of cutting fences and entering the Y-12 National Security Complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, in July 2012, embarrassing U.S. officials and prompting security changes.”

    Some people just don’t quit 8-)

  • 18000days says: chess…when you know there is no possibility of winning

    Haha outstanding!


    When our game’s in a hopeless bind
    And we find that we’re too far behind;
    That we’ve no more to bring,
    And we can’t win this thing—
    It’s time for becoming resigned.

    When we’ve wrung out all we can wring,
    There’s an action no one should ding:
    We make up our mind
    That, with all things combined,
    It’s time to tip over the king.

    Suddenly This Summer

    A zero calorie diet
    Plus heat will make people riot;
    But it’s worse if they scope
    That doom means there’s no hope—
    We should have kept it more quiet.

  • This is a long post. Although I’m following discussions on the forum I’m going to post on the main thread for the time being. I’m responding the current piece and some to others from the last few posts. Writing is a difficult task for me and I responding immediately in the form of communication doesn’t suit me as I like to mull it over. This is vastly different from me in person as I’m much more comfortable to respond in the moment when I’m in the actual physical presence of that person. Feel free to skip over this post (as if I could really stop anyone from doing so) if the length isn’t your cup of tea.


    Read your post. Just so you know my post was not focused solely on you.

    @Sabine & Logspirit

    Thanks for posting your thoughts. Pretty much what went through my mind while reading the piece.

    As I followed Bud’s piece the first part was intriguing and interesting. He stated he wasn’t looking to change people’s minds (so I took that at face value, but questioned then why publish the piece), explored the importance of skills, was redefining what “positive” meant and referenced Barbara Ehrenreich’s book. Then he moved into the section about attitudes. If I understood what he wrote we can adjust our attitude to deal with the situation around us. Don’t know why, only I felt an echo of “The Secret” at this point. It also seemed that the piece wound up doing a u-turn and humans did wind up being something special with unique abilities that other non-humans may not possess.

    If I remember correctly Ehrenreich’s book was written during the time she was battling cancer. She was dealing with the medical establishment and found that any expression of what she was really feeling caused a backlash by the people she was dealing with. Barbara was supposed to face the situation with smiles and a positive attitude to gain the benefit of the protocol she was enduring. In the end Enhrenreich had to fight hard to be allowed to express what she was feeling, and it was an uphill struggle.

    Somehow Bud’s piece seemed to put all the power in the individual’s hands if they would just shift the way they interpret a situation. The message I got was it was all a state of mind, everything. If you feel cold you could challenge that in your head. If you give in it’s your fault for not overcoming your own limitations. This seems completely opposite what Ehrenreich was sayig.

    I think our culture does it’s greatest disservice by keeping us from dealing with our feelings. Feelings are a great indicator that something feels good or bad. Expressig them and acting on them are too different things. That’s one thing that most conflict resolution workshops discuss. Even 12-step programs talk about the difference between facts and feelings and acting out on those feelings instead of talking about them can lead to less beneficial outcomes.

    It’s not always the one with the happiest and positive personality that lives long. My own grandmother was a hateful, aggressive, hostile, unhappy women her whole life. She outlived all my other grandparents by over 30 years until she reached 92. She even outlived 2 of her 3 children. .

    @ghostintraining Says:

    “PMB, I didn’t read the link, but the NYT has not been worth perusing in years.”

    Regarding the NYT, I was never much of reader of it in the first place, and became less so over the years. It’s not the source of the news I read; only if others reference an article there I’ll read it. I came to the conclusion that once a topic runs in the Times it’s far beyond relevant; kind of like reading Forbes for stock tips (it’s not for early predictors of trends). For the most part my main resources are Desdemona Despair, See More Rocks and Rice Farmer plus whatever X-Ray Mike and fellow poster Tom links to.

    Even with only those few sources I’m better informed than most people I engage with as was made clear to me recently. I met a couple from Australia a few weeks ago who were amazed and commented that they hadn’t met any American who was so aware of what was happening in the wider world, and knew geography. Wish being so informed was a benefit in this culture. I’m obviously one of the 3 in 4 who know the Earth revolves around the Sun and one of the 2 in 4 that knows humans evolved from an earlier species of animal.

    “Expect to hear more and more contradictory pieces from everywhere. Don’t bother trying to reconcile them (although I know it’s seemingly impossible not to try). It’s in the nature of our modular brain and ideological structures.”

    I do expect this. I don’t believe that I’m trying to reconcile all these pieces, yet I could be in denial and don’t recognize it. What I believe I’m trying to be is a critical thinker. This was not a skill I learned in school. As a youngster I was actively discouraged from asking the weird type of questions I did (the teacher usually found it disruptive and the class laughed at my strange notions).

    I don’t just accept what Guy says on face value. I respect that he’s done a great deal of work by offering the information in the Climate Summary, yet I can’t just parrot back what he’s written without an understanding of the information. Recently, UV offered a link to a rather scathing indictment of Guy’s Climate Summary by Scott Johnson. Johnson seems to favor some reporting agencies over others and dismisses what he finds doesn’t meet his criteria for valid science research.

    Only there are some points that Johnson makes that I’m trying for more clarity. One of those points regards the reporting of temperature rise from the IPCC. In the assessment section of the Climate Summary Guy only references the IPCC a single time and it is the 2007 version. He states that “>1.8 C by 2100.” Yet Johnson in his piece which refers to the latest IPCC report states “The latest IPCC report projects roughly 0.3 to 0.7C of warming by 2035.”

    On the whole I agree that the IPCC is conservative and doesn’t include much in the model that it should. What I wonder is which of these pieces of information is correct especially as this is section of the Summary Report is hugely important as each report is showing a stunning revision in the reported temperature change.

    Is the information in the 2013 IPCC so radically different from the 2007 version? Guy hasn’t changed the assessment to reflect the new report. If the 2007 version did report the figures Guy has stated Johnson is remiss in not stating that he is comparing 2007 to 2013 which is like comparing apples to oranges. I haven’t read the IPCC and am not sure I have the necessary background, but I wonder if anyone else had been interested enough in reading the report and sharing what they found.

    So, this was my motivation in trying to understand what was in the NYT opinion piece. I don’t want to just dismiss the source of the essay because I don’t like them.

    “The research linking summertime Arctic sea ice with wintertime climate over temperate latitudes deserves a fair hearing. But to make it the centerpiece of the public discourse on global warming is inappropriate and a distraction. Even in a warming climate, we could experience an extraordinary run of cold winters, but harsher winters in future decades are not among the most likely nor the most serious consequences of global warming.”

    This is how I interpreted the above paragraph:
    1 They agree that linking summertime Arctic sea ice with wintertime climate over temperate zones deserves a fair hearing.
    a. What a fair hearing isn’t clear to me.

    2)When did the subject of linking become the centerpiece of public discourse.
    a.Climate change has barely been mentioned as a cause during the recent weather events in the USA so centerpiece seems disingenuous at lest.

    3)They acknowledge that even in a warming climate we could experience a run of cold winters.
    a.To my understanding the constant up and down of weather is one of the outcomeswhat Climate Change/Global Warming This will put habitat under such strain as it won’t have time to adjust to such radical changes in short times (within a day to a few days) and make growing food in such weather challenging at least.

    4)I still feel their using the words harsh and cold as descriptors of winter does nothing, at least to me, to make clear to make what the difference is between the two.

    “A question is what would happen if the majority of earth’s domesticated primates”

    It is an interesting question and the percentage breakdown you supplied was intriguing game to be played. Only I’m not sure other than as a game it is something that I’d spend much time considering. I’ve seen too much of human behavior to not put higher percentages with the more aggressive behaviors.


    I want to add my thanks for your sharing the very personal experience and journey regarding your mother. It has been greatly appreciated and my thoughts are with you.

    My own mother died 32 years ago, spending most of her life waiting for the time she and my father could enjoy a retirement in Florida and traveling. So she waited all those years in vain. Her last days in the hospital were even more nightmarish to watch, then the slow deterioration of her health, hooked to tubes and bottles, barely conscious and wracked in constant pain. Her body was rapidly shutting down, but our culture has to wring every drop of life/money/whatever out of ourselves to keep us alive instead of helping us to make the end more humane.

    Despite watching the deterioration, my father and sister were appalled when I said I wish she’d just feel free to let go. She was my main ally in the home so I knew what it would be like for me (and my mother was no saint) and what I was losing. I think they would have put her in a rocking chair a la Norman Bates and kept her around forever just so as not to accept the inevitable.


    From the previous thread. I’ve heard that Churchill quote before. I’ve always interpreted it as a way to couch appreciation in a subtle insult. Of course in that case the “right thing” for Britain was clearly coming in to the war to save them and “democracy”. Sadly, the right thing would have been for Britain to have acted less vindictively towards Germany after WWI thereby possibly avoiding WWII.

    And yes, I agree that we long ago exhausted our options; I believe there is nothing we can do now to avoid where we are headed despite all those continuing to insist WE NEED TO ACT NOW. Except I’m still not sure what those actions we need to take now are and I don’t think those making that statement do either.

    Those wanting to action now seem to be oblivious that we’ve just shifted baselines again. At some point we were no longer concerned about 350ppm or 400 ppm as the new number I read more often is 450 ppm.(Nothing out of ol’ Bill M about this.). So we’ve nudged the base line a little further down the road. Of course nobody told Mother Nature that and I doubt she’s in agreement.


    A few essays ago you had raised some points regarding a comment I made about wanted to save other species and that’s been on my mind.I believe you wanted to know my motivation behind wanting to save other species.

    It’s not an either or answer. A part of me is altruistic (which has not done me much good in this hyper masculine world we exist in) and feels these other creatures have as much right to live as humans do. Only that they don’t have a voice or a seat at the table and so I speak up for them. When I bring up other species most react to me as if I’m crazy and to them I am.

    From an ascetic point of view all of these other species add a diversity of beauty to the planet that I get to enjoy. I also acknowledge that my life is completely dependent on the existence of these creatures and if they go I go. So, in both of these motivations are selfish only for different reasons.

    I see no reason why I can’t live with both ideas in my head. I’m comfortable holding these two contrasting ideas, (being altruistic and selfish at the same time). I’m conscious of the opposing thoughts and am able to say I’m doing this. I don’t see any damage being done to the wider world by me in this case.

    My experience most people do not understand the importance of non-humans to their lives. That is why as I’m watching us destroy all non-human life (I’ve taken on White Wolf’s term, I like it.) it stuns me that humans delude themselves into thinking we above it all and can exist on a planet without the diversity that is necessary for us to life.

    Do I think the situation is hopeless? Pretty much. The news reports I read are clearly indicating how out of control so many situations are. Do I envision that overnight collapse happening. It was always possible in some circumstances, but it wasn’t playing out that way.

    Maybe I’m suffering from shifting base line syndrome myself; I keep shifting the line back to a place it may never existed so I delude myself into thinking the situation is worse than it is. Yet I truly don’t remember the constant barrage of report after report after report informing us of nothing but bad, bad news.


    That link Grant provided from the Guardian on the article about the couple who chose when they wanted to stop living was much appreciated. The piece was full of information on so many levels for anyone contemplating taking this action. Depending on one’s circumstances what preparation is needed both before and after can be quite complex, yet is necessary. I was particularly interested in the fact that it was the son who was at the center of the piece (we never find out if the daughter felt similarly to her brother).
    By coming publicly o this topic the son is taking a risk and showing great courage. So for

    Lydia had mentioning doing a public event of mass suicide and for an event like that you can count me out. For too much of my life I’ve been the outcast, the front runner, the pioneer, the speaker of things that make others see me as a loony tune. I no longer have the courage for such actions.

    Would such an act even have an effect on the wider society? What would I be trying to accomplish? I don’t think our culture/society/civilization (as obsessed with current suicidal/omicidal behavior would understand what the goal was. Mass media certainly would spin it into the actions of a death cult. When and if the time is right for me I’d prefer it to be in the comfort of a place of my choosing out of the public eye.

    I’ve met with a number of people who are suffering with terminal illnesses over the last year and listened to their stories. There are a few threads similar to them all. They don’t want to be at the mercy of the system to be kept alive. They want to decide when the way they are living is of a quality they associate with good living. They want to have control over when this comes.

    As for myself I have been taking steps to not keep my life going in perpetuity using medications. I’m trying to keep to not extending my life by using more resources to extend it. I’ve had argument with doctors already who push for me to start certain medications. After watching both parents die from different forms of cancer, and too many friends and acquaintances die from AIDS in the 80’s I was not going to participate in any of these protocols. Let’s just say when I share my views on this the most common reaction is horror, mostly at not trying to stay alive as long as possible.

    I have found the recent articles about finance people taking their own lives intriguing. I don’t’ see it as a trend or a conspiracy, but wonder what went on for these people to take this action.


    At the end of January Robinwesterna put up a piece regarding the workings of the human brain that I found touched on much of the behaviors I have been seeing. Whether it’s true or I’m biased in its favor; it was interesting to me. The thrust of the piece was how both sides of the brain are two parts of a whole and or us to function fully we need both sides to work in cooperation.

    An example in the article was a hunter-gather who went fishing. Left side of the brain allows us to focus on the task while the right side allows us to be aware if there is any danger that may be encroaching on us while doing the task.

    And below is a segment of the piece.

    “it has now been shown that people of higher intelligence and IQ are much easier to hypnotize and mind control than more creative individuals, and even people with lower IQs are less likely to be mesmerized than formally educated persons with advanced degrees. This would go a long way to explaining why the most absurd flying saucer cults are populated with PhDs and other highly qualified people waiting for the ’space brothers’ to arrive. The over-dependence upon and submission to the left hemisphere of the brain leads to just as much delusion and risk of being deceived as the flighty and poetic over-stimulated right hemisphere.”

    That was just one of a number of interesting points found in the piece and here’s the full link


    Went to the farmers market last week and one famer was speaking to a customer while I picking up some carrots. He went on about hating the weather and was going to relocate to, and get this, California. My face must have registered something because he gave me a look when I handed the produce to him to weigh. All I could think was, farmer, food, California, drought, Oklahoma, Dust Belt, Steinback.

    These days I don’t regularly listen to Mike Ruppert, but See More Rocks had a link to the last show. It appears Mike Ruppert is doing another move (how many does that make?) back to sunny CA (maybe he’ll hook up with that farmer fellow). Only he’ll be in the North on a farm working with permaculture people and there’s water from the mountains. Mike said it rained in CA last week so things are looking up in that area (wonder if he’d have said that if he wasn’t moving back there?) I got the impression that supplying food that small group won’t be a problem.

    Yet, from all I’ve read the drought in CA is still ongoing. Guess if John Steinback was to write Grapes of Wrath today the Joads would be leaving CA and heading east to Oklahoma. Just thinking about that book and seeing how uch has changed since then. A world without Nuclear Power, much less electricity use, etc etc.

  • Thanks to so many for insightful comments. Tom for keeping track of cadence as the herd stampedes toward the cliff. Wolfbird and 18000days about chess. And to the NBL poet laureate Donkey for (often bitingly) summarising so much in terse verse.

    The Diner folks mistook (and may still mistake) NBL to be different in degree but not in kind. Beyond a certain degree, the momentum of the stampeding herd and the height of the cliff radically alter the kind.

    And yet much of what the Diners and other preppers and doomsteaders advocate can serve for palliation on the way out. However, palliation, no matter how active, does not sit well with the Diners.

    The prevalent attitude equates Last Group Surviving with Long Term Survival. How many such groups succeed depends very much on how wide the bottleneck might be, and ultimately on whether or not the bottle is capped. This is very much at odds with palliation: actively working to reduce suffering would divert scarce resources from Last Man Standing (and implicitly, disregard those who are not “in our group”).

    With the NTE perspective, the group, whether seen as stupid or evil (or both) is the whole human species. Even other species may be included. Membership not necessary.

  • Hey everybody! Relax, good news, I’ve been informed that this whole Global Warming thing is a big hoax. Yeah, a kid on youtube explained it all to me. Seems the government can control all the weather, and besides, the weather has been changing for years…all the way back to Reagan.
    This kid had to run to his next class, so he couldn’t tell me everything. Just know that all is cool.
    (sorry Guy-OUT OF BIZZ)

  • MT

    Well since you admit to knowing about Irvin Berlin, albeit obliquely through an older generation, I will post the link to the music when next an occasion arises. :-)

  • @ Robin Datta

    Regarding my comments at the end of the Rat Poison thread.

    If you want to try and sort out this problem, I’m happy to have a go at doing that. Preferably on the forum so as not to irritate everyone else.

    You insist that there is no soul, that spirits come in bottles, that consciousness is this or that, etc, etc, and on every thread you make these unintelligible declarations, and pick and mix bits of science and bits of buddhism, etc.

    It would be better if you explained what you meant in language which ordinary people could understand.

    When you use the English word ‘soul’ to correspond to a Sanscrit word from Hinduism, this is completely illegitimate.

    The ordinary dictionaries do this, because they are for simple every day discourse, but you are talking about specialist technical esoteric areas.

    The Anglo-Saxons had their own, and rather beautiful, religion which had a sophisticated and detailed cosmology, (we get a tiny glimpse from the fragments that remain, Ygdrassil, etc) and the word ‘soul’ comes from THAT.

    It then gets totally corrupted into something quite different when it is forced to conform to Christian dogma, or a particular brand of Christian orthodoxy forcibly at a time in history.

    So the word ‘soul’ already has a complicated history, which corresponds with nothing at all from Asia or the India.

    When Jung speaks, as in this quote, of ‘soul’ he is using the word again, in a totally DIFFERENT meaning.

    Western man has no need of more superiority over nature, whether outside or inside. He has both in almost devilish perfection. What he lacks is conscious recognition of his inferiority to nature around him and within him. He must learn that he may not do exactly as he wills. If he does not learn this, his own nature will destroy him. He does not know that his own soul is rebelling against him in a suicidal way. — C.G. Jung

    (Happened to stumble on here)

    He gets his idea of ‘soul’ from the Greeks, from Plato, neo-Platonism, the Gnostics, the Alchemists, but in the context of that quote he’s using the word in a different sense, much more generalised. But again, there’s no connection to anything in the Hindu or Buddhist traditions OR the Christian traditions, for that matter.

    The zen teacher who was the head of the tradition I was taught insisted that we DO have souls, contrary to what you say. She was adamant about this, because, for one thing, in Japan, women were excluded on the grounds that only MEN had souls.

    I am equally adamant that I, ulvfugl have a soul. But when I make this statement, I’m not talking about any of the above definitions, I’m talking about the Subtle Body, as understood by many traditions, including the Indian and Taoist and Tibetan.

    So, if you listen here to what the Dalai Lama says, and take it that the Subtle Body = Soul, then you will (maybe ?) understand that there is no conflict.

    Sometimes, the same words signify different things. Sometimes different words signify the same things. You cannot just translate, transfer, terms from one language and tradition to another and take it for granted that you can ignore the complex backgound and etymology.

    When atheists and materialists insist that there is no such thing as ‘a soul’, what exactly are THEY talking about ? Which definition do THEY have in mind ? There’s almost nothing about ‘the soul’ in the Bible or in the teachings of Jesus. Seems to have mostly been concocted by the later Church as a way to get power and leverage over people, by threatening them, with an idea. To that extent, I’d be sympathetic with arguing against a bad idea.

    Modern science and the public generally are NOT using the word ‘consciousness’ in the way that YOU use it, drawing from the ancient Vedic and Buddhist texts.

    We have already got a hopelessly confused mess, and every time you comment here you make it WORSE and add more muddle instead of understanding and clarity.

  • @PMB, you seem like a very earnest fellow. I wasn’t seriously proposing a mass suicide, it was more along the lines of an “Indecent Proposal”. But it remains a massive understatement to say that human life in Industrial Civilization crowds out other species, so logically if we were to put their interests before ours, we would step aside in their favor. We won’t do this, so it’s a moot point, although in Montpelier, the state capitol of Vermont, there’s an organization that meets with the legislature called the “Council for All Beings”, where certain people give proxy testimony for -say- a bird or a frog. Not sure if creatures like ticks or bedbugs or MRSA are represented by the Council, as I have not investigated it.

    “when I share my views on this the most common reaction is horror, mostly at not trying to stay alive as long as possible.”
    Yes, when I questioned going through chemotherapy even the naturopath thought I was daft.

    You don’t have to go as far back as the 1930s, just think back to the 1960s. I was telling my husband how, when plastic garbage bags first appeared on the scene, they weren’t sold in regular stores or supermarkets: you got them from the gas station! And they were marked “a product of Esso Chemical Company” (before they came up with brands like “Glad” and “Hefty”…).

    Far from being subject to the laws of “supply and demand”, whole ways of being have been visited upon us by those with agendas. Think GMOs, think nuclear power… these were top-down operations. Nobody was clamoring for plastic bags in 1967; they just showed up! Nobody is clamoring for chemotherapy: the cure rates are vanishingly small (for my sort of cancer, anyway) and if the retail price were paid by the individual few people would be able to go through it. God only knows what happens to that crap once it exits your system and reaches the larger world. The nurses have to wear haz-mat suits to handle it.

    “Norman Bates” LoL!!

  • For visitors who think that this place is some sort of weird cult.

    After we’ve studied the climate science, yup, we get turned on by… um…

    Grave Sucking or Mantle Grabbing is the Fast Track to Spiritual Power

  • Let The Mystery Be – Iris DeMent H.Q.


    Keep on keepin’ on.

    Sure could use some cowgirl haiku ah-ha.

    Neil Young ”Cowgirl In The Sand” [Live @ Massey Hall 1971]


  • ulvfugl
    re your ‘debate’ with RD about terms such as ‘Consciousness’, I commend your pointing these things out, meanings in translation, culture, context and time etc.
    I wish to simply state that in my view it is always incumbent on the one who wishes to understand, to work their ass off to understand! Stating that there is a popular meaning to a word such as Consciousness only goes so far in my view. Everything has multiple meanings, esp in a post-Modern world, where the context of communications is no longer based on any one cultural traditional POV. No?
    I think your pointing these things out is very useful, but to expect RD or anyone else to do the deciphering is perhaps asking too much. The onus is on the ‘understanderer’ in my view.

    Are we not doing this constantly here and elsewhere when we communicate ‘across’ our own world views and meanings, shared sometimes and not at others. RD brings a view from that tradition, often rather obtusely, but I like that. I guess you have the breadth of knowledge and awareness to see the disjunctions, and maybe you rail at RD to clarify for others.
    It all makes for a rich mattress of understanding, perhaps, even more so if we persist in looking from other POVs than our own.
    OAM, do you have bees there in your forest that you tend?
    Anyone a bee enthusiast?

    Cheers to ya.

  • We are what we are.

  • @PMB
    Thanks for reading my post. It seems there are several here who consider the whole kit and caboodle of “The Secret” thing to be about as trustworthy and worthwhile as a political promise. The whole notion of mind over matter, over the limits of matter, is at the core of IC and its malfunction and malfeasance (assuming IC is official). But we know better, we know its just ersatz currency, mint flavored. If only… if only our hearts had been heavy enough to stop this beast.

    My own dismay is continually reinforced by witnessing standard neurotic reactions to simple factors that would have been a regular part of a sustainable approach to life, such as vegan diets and humanure. It really shouldn’t depress me much, but it still does, that so many even now balk at the notion of organically grown food – when they start to get what it really means. Of course, its far too late for affirmative natural lifestyle patterns to change the outcome now. The ‘clean’ whoosh of a flush toilet is simply irresistible. Whoosh.

    Suicide, whether personal or en masse via mass destruction is a doorway with a glowing red EXIT sign hanging over it. When things get unbearable, people claw their way to the EXIT.

    Obviously the path is going to get a lot rockier between here and The End. I have walked on some really rocky paths. It is striking how much more tiresome they are, how much they slow you down and affect the quality of life’s experience. How ironic when the untouchable vista is so spectacular. Lost down here in the middle of the Milky Way on some crisp crystalline night. Aware of the beauty of being able to feel sadness at all, but knowing the raging sadness of spoiled beauty. Yup. And uh, hey, with a heavy heart, I’m pretty sure the monkeys want me to say a word for them… adieu.

  • “It is an interesting question and the percentage breakdown you supplied was intriguing game to be played. Only I’m not sure other than as a game it is something that I’d spend much time considering. I’ve seen too much of human behavior to not put higher percentages with the more aggressive behaviors.”

    of course youre correct regarding the aggressive %. (I was merely having some flippant fun). Black Friday bears this out lol

  • The World’s Weather, 2013.


    High methane levels over the Arctic Ocean on February 17,2014

    Above image shows IASI methane readings over the last day or so, when levels as high as 2223 ppb were recorded.

    On above image, methane shows up prominently along the faultline that crosses the Arctic Ocean from the northern tip of Greenland to the Laptev Sea. This indicates that the methane originated from the depths of the Arctic Ocean, where sediments contain large amounts of methane in the form of free gas and hydrates, which have become destabilized.

    High methane concentrations have persistently shown up over the Arctic Ocean since October 1, 2013. On January 19, 2014, levels as high as 2363 ppb were recorded over the Arctic Ocean, as illustrated by the image below, from an earlier post. [much more]

    More leaks at Fukushima

    TEPCO is behaving as though it is the victim of the largest industrial accident in the history of time rather than the perpetrator. Fairewinds Energy Education’s Arnie Gundersen analyzes new leaks at Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 and discusses TEPCO’s negligence in not applying engineering rigor to its analysis of the leaks.

    100 tons of toxic water leaked at Fukushima plant

    Around 100 tons of highly radioactive water leaked from one of the tanks at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, the plant’s operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) said on Thursday.

    The water reportedly spilled beyond the barrier that is set up to block it from flowing out of tanks.

    A process to stop the radioactive leak is underway. The spill is said to contain 230 million becquerels per liter of strontium and other beta ray-emitting radioactive substances.

    TEPCO believes the leakage has not reached the adjacent sea, as no drain was found.

    The leak was discovered by workers on patrol at around 11:25 p.m. local time on Wednesday.

    I enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts, comments, links, and exchanges of opinion. Most of us are evolving through our own particular paradigms shaped by culture, education, experience, further reading and personal mental development (or devolution in some cases) so it’s valuable (at least to me) to be exposed to various points of view. We have a wide variety of humanity here on “the beach” with more arriving as they become aware, and as we careen toward extinction.

  • Here’s another (a bit longer) look at the “on-the-ground” effects of what ulvfugl cited above:

    SOC – Epic Extreme Events Of Earth 2013 Review Mass Media
    Hawkkey Davis Channel

  • “And in case it is not really and painfully obvious – we’re not really trying. We don’t even intend to.” (from RD’s link)

    People in general don’t know WHAT to try, and are not in charge of their own decisions. We appear to be afflicted with a faulty (and fatal) sense of meaning.

    Among the drastic misconceptions fostered by IC are these:

    – Individual will and direction have major significance in changing IC.

    – Focus on human needs has major significance in changing IC.

    – There can be a left-brain solution to global predicament.

    IMO, it is the “all together as one,” and not individualism that offers the best future prospect.

    It isn’t people’s needs that should primarily be considered, but the needs of the land we inhabit.

    Any solutions that are probable would come from the unknown and unknowable depth of the collective unconscious. They can’t be thought about; they have to be given the right conditions to emerge spontaneously and organically. I suspect that tolerance–radical tolerance–of a wild assortment of opinions, cognitive styles, cultural understandings, etc., would be a step in the right direction. NBL appears to be one of the better blogs (the best for all I know) when it comes to such tolerance. Even so, considerable herding and effort toward common purpose present a daunting challenge even here.

  • With thanks to Bud Nye, I’ve posted an essay by Carolyn Baker. It’s here.

  • I agree with Artleads and Tom about why NBL is a site I like. The diversity of opinions, and at the same time, usually with a serious approach.

  • Now, let me ask (while once again possibly violating the golden two post rule): if Guy puts up a new post, isthe rule for the former one is no longer in effect?

    I only want to respond to Artleads last comment:

    I think we’re now out of time for ANY solution beyond the miraculous. No human unconscious realizations – even if we magically all got on the same page RIGHT NOW – we’d still be locked into our extinction in the not too distant future. We can’t turn “baked in”
    (d)evolving climate change around no matter what we do at this point.

    i’m beginning to wonder whether we could have changed anything even if we’d all gotten on the same page and done whatever it took to mitigate against what we didn’t even yet realize we’d done back in the 1960’s (when I became aware of just some of the coming problems).

    just my 2 cents

    The Industrial Revolution, all by itself may have been enough forcing to start the loss of habitat due to CO2 and all the other toxic waste we exude living this way (including radiation – which is completely out of control now).

  • I second ulvfugl’s thanks for the “agency” article: good read if you like philosophy.

    on another note, here we are worried about staying warm and I come across this:

  • I don’t want to “spoil” Carolyn’s new thread by posting before reading, so I’ll stick to our old haunts here.

    Enough to Go Around

    The weather’s been causing such sorrow
    That from Hollywood we might have to borrow
    Since our choice has been made
    They must send Dennis Quaid
    To save us “The Day After Tomorrow.”

    thx to ulvfugl — This January’s report is pretty exciting, too:

  • Before throwing the book away, ask yourself: Has anarchism been doing all that well? Should anarchists be satisfied to carry on as they are? Some of the worst things in history have taken place while the anarchist movement has been at work: the Somme, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, man-made famines and attempted genocide. Anarchists have protested, they have explained how the state produces these horrors, they have put forward another way to live. But the troubles continue and the results of anarchist efforts so far give us little reason to expect much improvement.
    Anarchists do a splendid job of smashing the arguments of their opponents; Angles on Anarchism sets out to get them questioning their own ideas, to see whether the reason for the poor response they receive may not lie there. We all find it painful to recognise that our hard-won ideas need changing, but when it hurts it’s doing you good; progress comes out of difficulties, disagreements and conflicts. So this book attacks ideas held by most anarchists, and if they retaliate by showing that they were right all the time, that I need to change my ideas, I shall try to remember that they do so for my benefit.

  • PMB, you wrote, “Somehow Bud’s piece seemed to put all the power in the individual’s hands if they would just shift the way they interpret a situation. The message I got was it was all a state of mind, everything. If you feel cold you could challenge that in your head. If you give in it’s your fault for not overcoming your own limitations. This seems completely opposite what Ehrenreich was saying.”

    I feel sorry that you or anyone else took those or similar meanings from my essay. I did not intend that. On the other hand, I did intend to suggest that for the most part by far (not always), situations do not “make” us feel emotionally as we do. Instead, and in distinct contrast with what our multi-billion dollar advertising propaganda industry pounds into our heads daily, WE make ourSELVES feel as we do with our THINKING ABOUT and APPRAISALS OF the things that happen—right up to and including trauma, illness, and death. Similarly, our thinking and appraisals strongly affect our physiological responses to situations. Realizing this does not “put all of the power into individual’s hands”. On the other hand, it certainly does help people move out of their passive, victim positions and take significant power into their own hands. I prefer not to give that power over me to others as so many people so often do.

    Bud Nye

  • Artleads

    A few essays ago I posted a link to a book that seems to echo your last sentiments. Here again:

    Not-Two Is Peace

    Adi Da Samraj
    The most recent edition, I just finished reading has extra material well worth looking at in depth.
    “Read chapters full of extraordinary wisdom and instruction such as:

    –Humankind Is Literally One Family

    –On The Dangers of The Old ‘Tribalisms’, and The Necessity For A Global Cooperative Forum Based On The Prior Unity of Humankind

    –Reality-Politics For Ordinary Men and Women

    –Wash All The Flags (and Leave All Name-Tags and Placards At The Door)

    –To Take Moral Responsibility Is To Make Reactivity Harmless


    –The Three Great Principles of All Truth

    –I Am Here To Awaken A Bright New Age of Global Humankind

    New in this enlarged and updated edition:
    Final Word, added just before going to press, was spoken by Adi Da hours before he suddenly departed from the body, on November 27, 2008.”

    I would emphasise that Adi Da’s unique summation argument is that only ‘understanding’ breaks the cycles and illusions of egoity, and in this book a clear argument is made that tribalism, and its contemporary extensions, civilisation and industrial civilisation, are collective expressions of individual ego ‘needs’ and ‘activities’. That way of existence is broken if we wish to survive , and we wish the planets living forms to survive.

    Individually, and collectively, Adi Da points toward what he calls ‘Prior Unity’ as a key understanding that this is our original and present condition.
    It is a challenge to all we are involved with as ‘egoity’.

    Without the ‘hopium’, and without the ‘religium’, I can only confirm that my own growth has only progressed on the basis of ‘understanding’,(slow as it has been). All other ‘growth’ and ‘maturity’, so called, is conformity by force and social fearful coercion, we all have an awareness of, into the ‘tribal matrix’ that eventually causes the light to go out of the eyes and diseases to overcome the body-mind.
    And lastly, a quote from the void, the clear words of Adi Da Samraj, on the tiny subject of human freedom and the coming time of struggle to save this world and all who and which dwell here…

    “The old moral, social, and political ‘order’ of humankind is now dead. A new and true and right order of humankind is, now, and forever hereafter, necessary. This Free Declaration is the Seed-Utterance of that new and necessary true and right (and truly globally, totally, and universally cooperative) order.”(2008)

    As anyone could see, I can’t recommended this book highly enough to achieve the greater , ‘miraculous’ goals we all here and many other places-blogs, co-ops, NGOs and hard-yarders, eco-politico-greenies, anti-fracking-picketers-are wanting and desperately trying to come to fruition.
    Cheers, and hoping things are manageable in your part of this wonderful world.

  • Hi Oz Man!

    So nice of you to point these things out to me. I will be looking into your references (especially since Adi Da departed on my birthday).

    My intuition is where these things come from. My art master told me that it was very good, but that I also needed intellect. So it is a joy to be led to reading that would fill out the picture which intuition sketches.

    There is meaningful work to do in my neck of the woods, as in yours. IC unifies us wherever we are, since its mission is to blow up creation wherever money can be made thereby. Its mission does not vary, is the same in all places, and is not complicated. Best to you!

    @ Tom

    “I think we’re now out of time for ANY solution beyond the miraculous.”

    Yes, there’s the miraculous. Glad you said it and not me. :-) Thanks for all the good work!

  • “I Am Here To Awaken A Bright New Age of Global Humankind” is not a statement I would reconcile with someone who wants to “break the cycles and illusions of egoity”. Sheesh.

    “I will be looking into your references (especially since Adi Da departed on my birthday). ”

    Huh? If this person had died on another day, would you not be looking into the references?

    Words have meaning. A lot of people seem to emit words without understanding what it is that they are actually saying.

  • We have the clueless scientist mentioned here

    Who writes ‘How Mcpherson gets it wrong’

    Who is unable to connect dots.

    There’s this

    The extinction occurred between 251.941 ± 0.037 and 251.880 ± 0.031 Mya, an interval of 60 ± 48 ka. Onset of a major reorganization of the carbon cycle immediately precedes the initiation of extinction and is punctuated by a sharp (3‰), short-lived negative spike in the isotopic composition of carbonate carbon. Carbon cycle volatility persists for ∼500 ka before a return to near preextinction values.

    Gives some idea of the time scale.

    To be able to grasp where WE are at, consider this :

    By 2050, Zachos expects the ocean’s pH to drop by the same amount as during the entire PETM.

    I simply cannot understand how any reasonably sane intelligent adult, let alone someone with knowledge of basic science, cannot see that when the Earth system is abused in this way, changed faster than at any time in geological history, the result to be expected is an extinction event.

    We will get anoxic oceans and that means an extinction event.

    Okay, so nobody has published a paper saying it is going to happen on such and such a day…

    Why would they ? They are all effing clueless like that one. They all think first of their own career and their own prospects and their own employer, and they cannot imagine the horror that is approaching. Nobody can.

  • “‘I will be looking into your references (especially since Adi Da departed on my birthday). ‘

    Huh? If this person had died on another day, would you not be looking into the references?”

    Reeks of superstition. I’m not above that, but I take your point. I agree about words, and you sometimes use them “unadvisedly” too. Only about different things.

  • Artleads, why are you even here, when you understand nothing about this blog or why it exists or the topics discussed here ?

    You’re like someone who has lost their way in a busy train station in a foreign country and you make idle conversation with whoever comes along and thank them and then stumble off in another arbitrary direction, hopelessly lost and confused, muttering away to yourself. You have zero knowledge or insight about any subject. You think that doesn’t matter, because you can just bluff and bullshit and make up some nonsense.

    I mean, if this was a blog about growing fucking hydrangeas or the best way to find vintage vinyl records you’d be just as well served and probably people would find you a lot less annoying.

    As it is every comment you make, other than the ones where you thank someone for something you obviously don’t understand, reveals that you are have no understanding at all of the issues we are addressing here.

    You are totally irresponsible. You don’t give a shit about the truth value of what you say, or whether it means anything, whether it’s right or wrong or accurate or correct, it simply does not matter to you, you don’t care, you spout it out and hope you get away with it, and if the other person is fooled and thinks you might know something, you’ve done pretty well.

    Too fucking lazy to actually learn anything, and you’ve got away with it all your life so why should you care now. As you told us, on the other thread, your intuition told you 50 years ago that we were in trouble, but you didn’t do anything then, when it mattered, and now it’s too fucking late. You missed your chance. No superstition or miracles are going to help you, are they. But it was your choice. You can’t blame anyone else. You’re going to have to face that and live with it.

  • @ Artleads

    “Every creature great or small wouldn’t give a fig if we were gone, every last one of us.
    The collective web of Life of planet earth would heave a common sigh of relief if human exceptionalism vanished forever.”

    This is an area of uncertainty for me. I see that we’re a part of the web of life and can’t exist beyond it. But we’ve managed to occupy every nice and even get beyond Earth’s gravity. We are causing the 6th extinction all by ourselves. No other form of life seems to compare with such dominance. And I don’t see how any complex life can survive us, as we will use (as we are doing) their very last resources for OUR survival. Doesn’t that mean we can’t save other species if we can’t save ourselves?

    See. You have no idea. So why don’t you actually do some work ? Why don’t you get to the bottom of this so that you have some insight and understanding ?

    I know you will not. You’ll just carry on bullshitting and blathering and making up nonsense.

  • No other form of life seems to compare with such dominance.

    What about bacteria? Do they not completely dominate? Certainly they have dominated Earth for most of it history. Perhaps they still do. You just can’t see them. Scientists have recently discovered that bacteria form a bubble around Earth, way up at about passenger jet cruising altitude. Would you like meat or fish for lunch? Bacteria optional.

    From a bacterium’s point of view, a human, like any other multicellular organism, is simply a taxi it can use to get from place to place. People enjoy kissing. Bacteria really like it. Some 250 species of bacteria are traded during a French kiss.

  • ulvfugl: I went to the site of that myopic “scientist” and put in this comment

    Scott: great job trying to obfuscate the now obvious climate change giving us yet more false hope that “everything is fine” with business as usual (ie. industrial civilization) while all the signs around us get worse in both intensity and at a faster rate than even the models predict. As Yoda would say: the denial is strong in this one.

    The pollution we produce, by itself, is set to kill us off – plastic pollution (that no one is cleaning up enough to make any difference due to sheer volume), radiation (that gets worse every day:

    Tepco admits to misreporting radiation levels by 500%
    Learn more:

    and it can’t even be stopped, let alone cleaned up), our oil, chemical and particulate pollution goes on day after day along with CO2, and your assertion that methane bubbling has been around for centuries or whatever illustrates my point perfectly – sure it’s been around, but not to the extent that it measures now (with regard to area, rate and acceleration).

    Wake up and connect the dots honestly (without the bias of wanting to continue this toxic relationship we have to Earth). We’re a cancer, reproduce not unlike yeast bacteria on a petri dish, and will suffer the same fate. Too smart for our own good (read the book). Saying that “we could change” is nonsense – it’s in our nature (we’ve been doing it this way since we evolved). Besides it’s too late. Go down fighting, but know it’s our Alamo, we’re going to be overwhelmed (strike that – we are being overwhelmed – look at the Philippines for one example) and we don’t have the energy to keep restoring what nature effortlessly destroys.

    to which he responded

    It’s an invention of your emotional reaction that I think “everything is fine with business as usual”. Please try to read my post carefully without your gut reaction that if I disagree with something McPherson says I must be evil.

    My note about Arctic methane is not “an assertion”. I pointed to a recent study showing the plumes off Svalbard are millennia old and noted that you can’t establish something is accelerating when you only have one data point in time. Your claim that the current extent is much greater cannot be supported by evidence, because there isn’t any.

    [whew, there’s just no communication taking place]

  • @ Oz Man

    I like what Adi Da was attempting to do, but I disagree with him in one fundamental respect. (And if Ulvfugi could just for the moment put off slapping and kicking people about, his thinking could be helpful here.) I don’t see how “tribes” can give up their control and open up to a universal human community, unless “human” emphasis is replaced by “place” emphasis. Place overrides tribe in that it does not present the age-old human hatreds and suspicion of the other.

    A watershed expert here recently told a group of us that watershed planning, since water is everything in these parts, is able to bring usually opposed groups together as nothing else can. Can other units of place serve the same purpose? With watershed planning, people tend to see reason. They tend, unless they are deranged, to get it that everybody in the watershed needs water, and so they are encouraged to think as a community. I really don’t see a counter to tribalism other than to put land first and people second.

  • @ Artleads, Ozman.

    And if Ulvfugi could just for the moment put off slapping and kicking people about, his thinking could be helpful here.

    Reeks of superstition. I’m not above that, but I take your point.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with right brain/mythos mystical poetic intuitive stuff, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with left brain/logos literal logical analytical stuff.

    What’s WRONG is when fools like you two cannot tell the difference and muddle them up and confuse magical thinking and fantasy with science and the real material empirical world.

    It’s okay for little children to do it, it’s not okay for responsible grown up adults to do it. You’re supposed to have learned the difference.

    If you want to have fanciful illusions that your birthdate has some numerical significance that seems deeply meaningful, even though it’s totally absurd, ridiculous and irrational, then why not ?

    Most people indulge in that sort of mental rubbish ALL THE TIME. Most people LIVE in a totally fictional world that bears no relationship to the actual reality. Why would we EXPECT Artleads or Ozman to be any different ?

    Look, Blake was a mystic. We should have listened to him. We would not have got into this mess. He saw it coming. One of very few.

    Smile on our loves, and, while thou drawest the
    Blue curtains of sky, scatter thy silver dew
    On every flower that shuts its sweet eyes,
    In timely sleep. …

    (Blake, “The Morning Star”, ca.1770)

    That does not mean that we can all become mystical geniuses like Blake, by rejecting science and reason. It means being able to tell the difference, where the boundary is, between mythos and logos, and going up a level, so that they are balanced.

    We can’t avoid having both, they are like left and right. The correct position is to be CONSCIOUS of this.

    If Ozman wants to be a fan of Adi Da that’s his right. I’m not.

  • According to Hare: “There certainly isn’t anybody in government with the guts to stand up to the security services and their effective free rein to do whatever they like.

    “That’s what these films are about – our powerlessness.”

    Hare interviewed a large number of British spies.

    He says that many of them are as worried about what’s happening as he is.

    “There are people inside MI5 who think what has happened in the last 10 years is absolutely disgusting”, says Hare.

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  • “Time to live, time to lie, time to laugh, and time to die. Take it easy baby. Take it as it comes.”
    ― Jim Morrison

  • ulvfugi

    I wrote you a fairly long reply, but it hasn’t shown up. Let’s hope it does eventually.

    If Grant doesn’t want to delve into the extensive academic work around semiotics–I certainly don’t–he might want to look at Mythologies by Roland Barthe:

    I found this short book enriching in an artistic way. You read it, and then you start to see signs everywhere you turn, even if you can’t give the intellectual arguments around the why or wherefore.

    Barthe writes about such everyday phenomena as soap and wrestling. It would have been good to see what he made of American “football.” Nobody leaves the game without injury, and players will lay their lives on the line to move the ball even a few feet down the field. That brings up how brutal (but perhaps worthwhile?) is the struggle to push back even an inch against the corporate-military complex. Modern life seen as a game of American football.