The Great March for Climate Action: One Marcher’s Perspective

by John Jorgenson, Climate Marcher from Tucson, Arizona

It occurred to me one day; “I’m another lemming”.

I was sitting in traffic on my way to, get this, teach about environmental science, and I was the only one in my truck. I looked around at all the other “lemmings”, and sure enough, everyone was solitary, alone in their metal world and impatiently waiting for the light to change. To get on with their lives I guess. I was aware that every minute I was spewing out noxious gases and adding to the already overbearing greenhouse effect and yet, stuck. There, in traffic, waiting for a light to change so I could race with everybody else for the cliff.

It was with some relief that I found a way to quit all that. I have to give up some comforts; like my apartment, comfortable bed, my stereo system, and my guitar collection, and exchange all that to live in a tent for the next eight months and subsist on oatmeal for breakfast and fresh vegetables… and get around by foot and bicycle only. And lose some of this fossil-fueled fat in the process. Actually, that doesn’t sound half bad.

On March 1st of this year a group of 80 to 100 or so (or more please) people are going to set out from Los Angeles on an eight month journey to cross the United States and arrive in Washington, D.C. by November. As the brochure says, “the goal of the Great March for Climate Action is to change the heart and mind of America and its elected leaders to act NOW to address the climate crisis”.

How successful we’ll be, of course, remains to be seen. The way I see it, we don’t have much choice. We have to somehow turn this gigaton diesel engine of mass consumption, that’s driving life itself into retreat and extinction, around. It’s a daunting hopeless task. It’s also familiar territory for this former peace marcher. I shouldn’t say “former”, it’s just that I went on a similar march across the country 28 years ago when we had a similar daunting task. The Great Peace March for Global Nuclear Disarmament of 1986 set out against all odds. In the 1980’s we had Reagan’s Star Wars practically guaranteeing a computer-glitch-away, minutes-to-midnight, all-out nuclear war. I was convinced that the Reaganites wanted it, worshipped it even, with their Armageddon theology. It was with this sad resignation, certainty, and despair that I set on that walk, anyway. Looks like we survived the Reagan and I was glad to be proved wrong.

I’m going on this march even if it is futile. Even if it, “is not going to accomplish a damn thing” in the words of someone near and dear to me. I have as much pessimism as ever about what Stupid Human Tricks our species can cleverly come up with to forestall nature’s inevitable backlash. I am not sadly resigned to the mass extinction of life’s diversity I see going on around me. I’m through with despairing how to save a lifestyle that isn’t a LIFE affirming style. I’m pissed off about the fact that we’re taking so much life down with us. Maybe I’ll be wrong about this too.

I’d like to invite the readers and contributors for Nature Bats Last to come and join us for all or part of this historic march. Whatever your degree of conviction or uncertainty in the face of the climate juggernaut, come and talk with me about it. There’s eight months and 3,000 miles to choose from. You can check out the more coherent (my apologies) message of the march, sign up, or contribute at http://climatemarch.org. They are really a fine group of people.

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Please limit yourself to two posts daily. Additional comments are welcome at the NBL Forum.

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Please join me in supporting our friend OzMan as he literally walks away. Click here for more information.

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Sunday, 9 February 2014, 3:00 p.m., Book-reading and -signing, McNally Robinson Book Sellers, Grant Park in the Atrium, 1120 Grant Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Thursday, 20 February 2014, 5:15 p.m., Singer room, Eugene Public Library, 100 West 10th Avenue, Eugene, Oregon, “Climate Chaos & Resistance to Ecocide: Talks by Guy McPherson and Deep Green Resistance”

Friday, 21 February 2104, 7:00 p.m., Vancouver Public Library, 901 C Street Vancouver, Washington, “Climate Chaos & Resistance to Ecocide: Talks by Guy McPherson and Deep Green Resistance”

DGR February 2014

Saturday, 22 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., Bellingham Public Library, 210 Central Avenue Bellingham, Washington, “Climate Chaos”

Monday, 24 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., Odd Fellows Hall, 112 Haven Road, Eastsound, Washington (on Orcas Island), “Climate Chaos”

Wednesday, 26 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., San Juan Island Library, 1010 Guard Street, Friday Harbor, Washington

Thursday, 27 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., King’s Books, 218 St. Helens Ave, Tacoma, Washington, reading excerpts and signing Going Dark (donation for space and expenses appreciated)

Friday, 28 February 2014, 7:00 p.m., Traditions Cafe, 300 5th Avenue SW, Olympia, Washington, “How Shall We Act in Light of Climate Chaos?”

Friday, 7 March 2014, Antigone Books, 411 North 4th Avenue, Tucson, Arizona, reading excerpts and signing Going Dark

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 7-day seminar, 24-31 May 2014, Moho Creek, Belize, Central America.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 14-day seminar, 12-25 June 2014, Izabal, Guatemala, Central America.

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Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power and by more than 15 readers at Amazon.

Comments 112

  • Good luck, John. I admire you for your efforts!

    One of my favorite protest videos:

  • Failure is marching ALONGSIDE the road. Until people who want to survive, including classes of schoolchildren, get out and block highways, bridges, and especially city streets, it will be futile.

    Spewing. — since encountering Guy and his merry band, my much-diminished driving feels like I’m driving through the flowerbeds in a community park.

    I was there at march send-off, downtown LA, with David (S? I’m forgetting) who sparked the Vietnam Moratorium, plus the little that Clinton did on gay rights.

  • Good luck! Maybe I can walk a bit too when you get over this way.

  • David Mixner. Good luck! The kind of daring imagination that spread like wildfire through young minds needs to reappear today. Whether it makes a difference or not.

    I was also in the candlelight march in Washington DC, November ’69, and the Nuclear Freeze march NYC, June ’82. No wonder I keep popping up with comments here that must sound like optimism, right or wrong,. The energy of resisting a great evil with a million others (twice!), remembered always. For a moment, knowing who you truly are in this world.

  • John,
    More power to you brother…, pick me up when you pass Boulder. (;~)

  • I think you’ll forgive this transgression, to give a most relevant link that hadn’t occurred to me before, and if link doesn’t work, the film on youtube is “Just One Step ” by Cathy Zheutlin. Watching it now, first time. Holly Near, Martin Sheen, — can we “round up the usual ‘Peace Suspects ‘” for one more go?

  • I like Chris Hedges perspective: “I fight fascists, not because I will win, but because they are fascists.”

    Abrupt climate change equals horror and death imposed on everyone by fascists.

    John. Good to see someone actually do something. Most people won’t.

  • The 3,000 mile march is such a welcome undertaking! ( Even if it’s you and 1 other person.)
    We keyboard denizens will be hunkering down per usual when you saunter past our lazy villages. Please excuse our absences when they occur. We are creatures of annoying habit , sometimes… but we will be peeking out of our dens to peer at the more adventurous types like yourself who both inspire us & lend us strength whether we deserve it or not. Thank you for that .- Joslin ( Detroit )

  • John,

    I wish you luck in your journey.

    “the goal of the Great March for Climate Action is to change the heart and mind of America and its elected leaders to act NOW to address the climate crisis”.

    What I’d like to know is what are the exact actions you want to happen NOW? Are you prepared for what the outcomes of those actions might be?

    I’ve been trying to process the last two postings from Carolyn Baker and RE and having a difficult time with them both so I’ve been hanging in the background here.

    http://ourfiniteworld.com/2014/02/06/limits-to-growth-at-our-doorstep-but-not-recognized/

    Just read this piece titled “Limits to Growth–At our doorstep, but not recognized,” on Rice Farmer. I hadn’t realized until I finished it that was written by Gail Tverberg (as her name only appears at the end).

    I find myself agreeing with her criticisms in the shortcomings of the original Limits to Growth report. Only, her minimizing or lack of addressing climate change (unless I missed it in her report) was stunning. Is she taking the Nicole Foss route and ignoring the issue because it is too ethereal, too unreal, for people to grasp so let’s not bring it up.

    By ignoring this aspect of what wasn’t fully addressed in the LtG she only serves to undermine a huge piece of the unfolding puzzle.

    Then few, if any of the commentators mentioned it as well.

    I watched the Michael Mann interview. Mann is still in the midst of the law suit and is probably limited to what he can say. I got the impression from him that we “still had time” to fix the situation. That some companies are looking at the their bottom line and realize they must change (in order for IC to continue). Yet, Mann doesn’t mention the 40 year time lag that is part of this situation an understanding of means that any change done NOW will have no effect for 40 years.

    I was more struck towards the last few seconds when Jaisal Noor, the interviewer, said something about “how these people are playing with the future of human kind that they are playing with or gambling with.”

    Not sure how deeply Noor understands what he has said, nor do I know whether Noor understands that we are showing no concern for any other species having the right to survive other than humans.

    Part of the Age of Limits experience last year was to hear a “well schooled” gentlemen say during Guy’s talk that “one human is worth more than any other species.” Really bright guy. Is that the example of the peak of human evolution.

  • @John Jorgenson, it sure beats sitting in traffic!

    @PMB, I know what you mean about Gail T’s latest piece. I think it was very well written, but funnily enough I didn’t even notice the absence of climate change… what got me was the near-absence of talk about POPULATION, which is, of course, the even bigger elephant in the room.

    I think her habit is to write for the business world, so in that context you have to write in language that business folk can understand. It’s also hard to weave every perspective into a coherent communication that also has some depth. She picked an energy focus, and one certain set of IC-collapse chips do certainly fall from that path of investigation. That’s not to say that other sets of chips aren’t falling, too.

    As for “no concern for other species”, I think we are all like that but we just don’t want to admit it. At least, we reside along a spectrum like that, because, really, is our concern for other species purely altruistic, or do we just understand (some of us) that without healthy biodiversity we are also f*cked? Again, if we were serious about saving other species first and foremost, we would all commit suicide, in public, with banners and letters saying why we were doing so. But we’re not serious, so we don’t, is the way I see it. What we really want is half-measures that will assauge our consciences.

    People apparently want wind-power and electric cars to continue mimicking BAU. People apparently want to keep having as many kids as they feel like. People apparently want electric lights and computers; I don’t see an indication that anyone here (except Daniel) has an intention of walking away from those two items anytime soon. People, even collapse-aware ecologically-minded people, apparently want to travel to conferences, and publish books, and other people want to read them, on paper or via Kindle. We all want to keep eating, and we are unlikely to curtail that to any great degree in lieu of the solution I mentioned previously. I think we need to look more closely at ourselves in the mirror.

  • I’m glad this issue of some collapsniks not mentioning climate change, or steering away from the topic, has come up again. I think it needs some unpacking and critique, as collapsniks in general aren’t shy when it comes to talking about panic-provoking topics (think peak oil, and economic collapse). Here’s my 2 cents’ worth on the topic: http://theoverthinker.org/the-best-way-to-address-climate-change-is-not-to-talk-about-it/ I’d appreciate some feedback 🙂

  • The Overthinker

    You welcome feedback, so here is mine. I like the way you think and write, although sometimes it is exceedingly clear, and other times it requires rereading. I’m around average people a lot, always have been, and think largely as one among them. So simple writing is most appreciated, even when there is lots of scholarship behind it, as in your case.

    “Massive infrastructure investment in adaptation may sound like a good thing on face value. But I agree with Nicole that this is a great concern.”

    Yes. New Mexico’s governor, Suzanna Martinez (R), is intent on expensive water infrastructure projects–things like piping water long distances–that are beyond the available budgets, and that preclude cheaper conservation methods which make more sense. I see the payoff envisaged. No problem there. That sort of trend is not hard for the average person to grasp. We just don’t have enough conservation advocacy or examples to alert publics to conservation alternatives and their role in bringing them about.

    “Massive infrastructure investment will inevitably rip through massive amounts of finite resources, and generate a great deal more emissions than we currently produce in order to complete the adaptation process.”

    Agreed.

    “Nicole quite rightly points out that fear is currently being harnessed in order to fast-track lucrative construction projects, much as with the resource acquisition projects in Iraq. At present, however, many people are in favour of Big Green Tech ‘solutions’ not because they are afraid of worst-case scenario outcomes of climatic catastrophe, but more because they are reluctant to give up their current way of living, that requires large amounts of energy and resources to maintain.”

    True. Some of this may be due to them never having had the joy of living more simply. Some of that is due to simple living being too often “messy” (in their eyes) even though this perception could be obviated by more careful planning, outreach and design, including bring the rural and wild into cities.

    “Also in this category are infrastructure projects such as the building of sea walls around cities in order to keep the rising floodwaters and tides out. This is not sustainable in the long term.”

    Maybe a lot of people should start thinking about mass relocation. Not that they’ll have the power to enact this, but just to build a buzz around the issue. It can start with one or two people. What about mass relocation of people who live close to nuclear plants? Not saying it could happen, but thinking hard about it does no harm.

    “Mass-relocations are going to be needed, and currently very little time and energy is being invested in even considering such measures. Perhaps a reality-check is in order, and this reality-check is unlikely to make people more desperate to cling to unsustainable ways…”

    I was clear up to that point, but lost the thread here:

    “… when the parameters for realistic response to our predicament are revealed to be much narrower than previously thought.”

    I agree with most everything you say. A starting point would be not to *emphasize* things that people don’t yet understand or wish to understand. (And that indeed varies from person to person, although how do you vary your messaging accordingly?) In other words, no determination *not* to talk about climate change or anything else, but major emphasis instead on what can reach ordinary ears. Traffic, the economy, lost quality of life, rush, anxiety, suicides, drought, flooding, prolonged cold/heat, weather turbulence, wildfires… Any program they can more readily buy into (and I’m not wildly optimistic here) that address any of these symptoms of IC are what I would emphasize.

  • I listened to Nicole Foss on Alex Smith’s, Radio Ecoshock Show, a few days ago. Nicole Foss, John Michael Gandalf, Michael Tobis and many others like to play the, let’s not alarm the children, card.

    I was at Planet 3.0 the other day and in addition to a lot of Guy McPherson bashing many there have that same attitude about not alarming.
    This is from my exchange. I replied to a commenter there, but it was Tobis who responded (quickly).

    LCarey says:
    January 29, 2014 at 4:40 pm

    Go with Lomborg – he is treated as a Very Serious Person by major MSM outlets – NYT, WaPo, WSJ, etc. (who should certainly know better, but that’s another story). He accordingly has the power to reach a mass audience with his BS. MacPherson is at the opposite end of the visiblity spectrum, known to readers of websites like Transition Voice, etc., but entirely unknown to the general publc – why elevate his status by conferring the Golden Horseshoe on him? His message isn’t about to penetrate the MSM anytime soon, but Lomborg’s is already there. (But a good debunking of MacPherson’s view – sans award – might be nice – he really gets on my nerves.) Best regards.
    Reply

    Apneaman says:
    February 1, 2014 at 5:21 pm

    (But a good debunking of MacPherson’s view – sans award – might be nice – he really gets on my nerves.)

    Why does McPherson get on your nerves? Maybe he’s touched one.

    As for a good debunking, I have yet to see one. I’m not just talking about the methane clathrate gun or 2030. There is much more than that. The wizard, John Michael Greer has said he is going to debunk McPherson with real science, but I think he is a historian. I think there is about 30 positive feed backs on McPherson’s list. I wonder about why you guys are burning up so much energy on McPherson and why you think you should be the ones who decide on “the message”? Who elected you? In spite of 25 plus years of, lets not alarm the masses, moderate warnings and more research, not a damn thing has changed. Getting worse and going backwards. All these years of preaching to the choir makes me think that some of the more popular climate preachers are more worried about losing some of the flock to another denomination than making new converts.

    https://guymcpherson.com/2013/01/climate-change-summary-and-update/
    Reply
    Michael Tobis says:
    February 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm

    Nobody elected nobody nothin’. But some approaches are defensible and some are at odds with science. The job of some of the people with some science is to filter the indefensible ones out, so that they aren’t on the menu when people make actual decisions.

    When people want to control the message it’s not about strategy, it is about control and power.

    http://www.ecoshock.org/

    http://planet3.org/2014/01/26/whither-the-golden-horseshoe/

  • John

    I see in your actions and purposes the real meaning of life. To act first thinking in the others (nature included) and the ones that come after us (descendants), and after that, we may think in ourselves. For our modern style of living is a hard decision to be taken. If humanity act just like you, this world wouldn´t be facing NTE. It is not a sacrifice, when this way of thinking becomes the usual practice, but to most common people, it may look at first as so. To me, to live to consume and enjoy has no meaning and no purpose at all. And to work only to serve this two purposes is also a no long term destiny.
    As any entrepreneur knows, at the beginning, the pioneers in any new practice will have hard moments. And will have to put a lot from their own, to show the way, and serve as a guide to others.
    The clue at the beginning of this movements is persistence.
    All the best.

    People from small under-developing countries like mine (and in general all under-developed countries), have already done our part. We have lived a much limited life, 40 or 50 years behind USA and Europe in use of energy, and access to technology. And we are still a lot behind. As I said once here, and using the words of RE, “the ball is in the court of developed countries” regarding the changes required to change the trend of climate change, oil depletion, nuke menace, and economic collapse.

    This video shows in a very nice way some views of my country. This video made by two visitors from USA.

    To The Overthinker
    Interesting point yours.
    After reading the link, I guess that “not talking about” maybe a reasonable solution for the masses. I agree that the damage could be worse. As majority of people cannot handle the truth about climate change, and its consequences. Most people is tuned to “be happy, and “we are ok today, better tomorrow”.
    But, I would say that there is a small fraction of people, like many (or most) of NBL posters and readers, that in some way is prepared to handle the truth. This kind of people will be needed when the moment comes. Most of this people accept that there is very little to be done, the damage is too big. And are already one or maybe several steps ahead in understanding the gravity of the situation, and looking how to handle, live and face the tragedy. They may become the required leaders in a chaos scenario, able to help and guide small groups of people.
    NBL is mainly the hard process of understanding how to handle and face the crisis ahead.
    In the end, I guess that we need people leading the action of facing the truth, like Guy McPherson, and us as carriers of the same message to our local communities. This reduced range message is maybe what it is required, because it will certainly reach the right people, people that can change the understanding of their future.
    My conclusion, we need a dual position. Some people must take the message of the dire situation humanity faces to small (in some way selected) groups. And to the masses, the action should be “not to mention” the issue of climate change.
    Maybe the open mind people become a more relevant part of population on time (something I doubt), if so, required changes maybe easier to be carried out. As we are short in time, I am afraid that no matter what, we are done.

  • The sense I get from reading some comments is that there’s a general sense of resignation, that nothing is going to change.

    Au contraire mon frere, the entire world is going to change – except it’s not going to be to anyone’s liking.

    We were @ the Huntington library today, which in addition to one of the finest collections of rare books/manuscripts in the world, also has some very early photographic prints.

    Among these are a California collection, and while not that old at all, there are some early promotional real estate photos of Beverly Hills circa 1918+.

    Note that this was only around 100 years ago, and yet SoCal was still essentially empty with a population of under 1m vs around 20m+ today.

    The BH photos show an incipient town with all the streets laid out, planted palm trees around 3′ high lining the sidewalks, and one model house finished to show off a floor plan. In the background, the Santa Monica mountains are completely empty as they run west to the Pacific, as is Santa Monica Blvd running in the foreground.

    The point? LA and the entire developed world exists today due to only one reason. A mere long lifetime (or two ago), the world was completely different. Less people (by orders of magnitude) and plentiful oil that would spew out from internal pressure with only a few hundred feet of drilling pipe.

    Now? A massive, sprawling, impossibly complex hive of activity, with the entire edifice supported by one thing, one essential ingredient. Is it any wonder that “leaders” don’t want to upset the apple cart? Sh!t, if you really think about it, it’s sort of a cop out to be a protestor, know that nothing is ever going to happen. That is, until things DO really begin to happen.

    But when it DOES begin, all this mamby pamby bullshit is going out the window. Imagine not having a clue, to believe the world you exist in is **reality**, that it will somehow continue just like today, just like you’ve always known it to operate in your brief existence. And then to find out it’s all a mirage, was always a temporary deal that the smart n’ savvy knew full well was going to end someday, but in the meantime were gaming like there wasn’t any tomorrow. Which, of course, there isn’t.

    How will we get back to the type of environment that BH looked like a mere 100 years ago? It’s crazy if you let yourself really play it out in your head. That’s why I don’t get this resignation – it’s a 100%, absolutely gonna happen dunkshot.

    My advice is to stop complaining and start preparing (or praying). There’s no need to protest when the entire edifice is going to evaporate in a cloud of war.

  • Kirk,

    Those traitorous Vietnam vets. shown in the video do not represent the silent majority who did their duty to protect the rights of those disloyal protesters to act like spoiled and ungrateful asses.

  • FK — Sieg Heil, y’all!

    You’d probably have loved to be there to pull the guillotine cord on Hans & Sophie Scholl & Christophe Probst, too.

  • John Jorgenson: thanks for your essay and efforts. If marching did any good, i’d be right by your side. Ever since Bush II they don’t pay any attention to us, and now categorize marchers as “terrorists” subject to corralling, legal harassment, beating and arrest. The same goes for all the petitions I’ve started and signed: they rarely are noticed, let alone make any difference in a runaway government speeding into collapse. Still, I do try, I just don’t have any expectation of “success.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/09/global-water-shortages-threat-terror-war

    Why global water shortages pose threat of terror and war

    From California to the Middle East, huge areas of the world are drying up and a billion people have no access to safe drinking water. US intelligence is warning of the dangers of shrinking resources and experts say the world is ‘standing on a precipice’

    On 17 January, scientists downloaded fresh data from a pair of Nasa satellites and distributed the findings among the small group of researchers who track the world’s water reserves. At the University of California, Irvine, hydrologist James Famiglietti looked over the data from the gravity-sensing Grace satellites with a rising sense of dread.

    The data, released last week, showed California on the verge of an epic drought, with its backup systems of groundwater reserves so run down that the losses could be picked up by satellites orbiting 400km above the Earth’s surface.

    “It was definitely an ‘oh my gosh moment’,” Famiglietti said. “The groundwater is our strategic reserve. It’s our backup, and so where do you go when the backup is gone?”

    That same day, the state governor, Jerry Brown, declared a drought emergency and appealed to Californians to cut their water use by 20%. “Every day this drought goes on we are going to have to tighten the screws on what people are doing,” he said.

    Seventeen rural communities are in danger of running out of water within 60 days and that number is expected to rise, after the main municipal water distribution system announced it did not have enough supplies and would have to turn off the taps to local agencies.

    There are other shock moments ahead – and not just for California – in a world where water is increasingly in short supply because of growing demands from agriculture, an expanding population, energy production and climate change.

    Already a billion people, or one in seven people on the planet, lack access to safe drinking water. Britain, of course, is currently at the other extreme. Great swaths of the country are drowning in misery, after a series of Atlantic storms off the south-western coast. But that too is part of the picture that has been coming into sharper focus over 12 years of the Grace satellite record. Countries at northern latitudes and in the tropics are getting wetter. But those countries at mid-latitude are running increasingly low on water.
    [there’s more]

  • Signs Of Change The Past Week Or So 2014 (1) – January

    HawkkeyDavisChannel

  • Here’s one for dairymandave:

    http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/growing-food-is-extremism.html

    Sunday, 9 February 2014

    Growing food is ‘extremism’

    People who grow their own food labeled ‘extremist’ by Dept. of Defense

    If the founding fathers were reincarnated today, they’d probably start another revolution, this time to break away from an American government that has become far too imperial for its own good.

    Real Farmacy,

    8 February, 2014

    And as such, they’d be labeled “extremists” by those who mean to rule us.

    In fact, the nation’s founders are considered extremists by the Pentagon, according to a new “training manual” that explicitly labels the framers as such.

    Discovered by legal watchdog Judicial Watch via a Freedom of Information Act request, the manual was part of 133 documents provided by the Air Force. The January 2013 Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute “student guide” is entitled “Extremism.” The document says that it is “for training purposes only” and “do not use on the job.”

    Believe in freedom? You’re an extremist…

    The manual defines an “extremist” as “a person who advocates the use of force or violence; advocates supremacist causes based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or national origin; or otherwise engages to illegally deprive individuals or groups of their civil rights.”

    In addition, it says, “Nowadays, instead of dressing in sheets or publicly espousing hate messages, many extremists will talk of individual liberties, states’ rights, and how to make the world a better place.”

    So, if ye love liberty and freedom more than ye love a big, powerful central government that has grown well beyond its constitutional boundaries, you’re an extremist. If ye dare to take care of yourself, to be an individual who grows his own food (weren’t there a number of farmers and plantation owners in the group of founding fathers?) ye are an enemy of the state.

    Under the section, “Extremist Ideologies,” the manual states, “In U.S. history, there are many examples of extremist ideologies and movements. The colonists who sought to free themselves from British rule and the Confederate states who sought to secede from the Northern states are just two examples.”

    Though the document released today by Judicial Watch was obtained from the Air Force, it originated in a DOD office and is, therefore, thought to likely be used in other agency components, said Judicial Watch.

    “The Obama administration has a nasty habit of equating basic conservative values with terrorism. And now, in a document full of claptrap, its Defense Department suggests that the Founding Fathers, and many conservative Americans, would not be welcome in today’s military,” long-serving JW president Tom Fitton said.

    “And it is striking that some [of] the language in this new document echoes the IRS targeting language of conservative and Tea Party investigations. After reviewing this document, one can’t help but worry for the future and morale of our nation’s armed forces,” he added.

    This isn’t the first time the federal government, one of its agencies or some other “official” source has equated freedom-loving Americans who have an originalist view of the Constitution and its meaning with extremists.

    [of course there’s more]

  • Full Spectrum Peeping Tomism

    Looks like we’ll have to return to analog to make a point.

    Best of luck with your awareness campaign John Jorgenson.

    Planning this year’s veggie garden. House plants are responding to increased day length.

    Nina Simone – Sinnerman

  • @ FKLING

    I asked you once already, but you did not have the show the manners of a gentleman and give me a reply. What was a good German doing fighting in Vietnam ?

    Surely, the Vietnamese were doing their duty repelling invaders, having just thrown out the French, it was their duty to throw out the Americans.

    They had successfully maintained their independence for a thousand years and more. What ‘duty’ had any American, even less any German, to be there at all ?

    Well, of course there was the heroin trade from the Golden Triangle, that was rather lucrative, and a lot of American companies made a lot of money selling munitions and equipment to Russia which the Russians sold to the North Vietnamese so they could use them to kill Americans in South Vietnam.

    So American corporations profited from both sides of every battle. Perhaps that’s the duty that you speak of ? The obligation to make money out of blood and suffering ? Agent Orange ? Napalm ?

    https://youtu.be/FnfMdM9cBp0

  • Tom will be here with this at any moment, but in case he’s got router problems or weather problems or whatever…

    ‘Massive’ amount of Fukushima data wrong? “Figures can’t be trusted” — NHK: Strontium-90 by ocean at 160,000 times limit — Tepco: Actual levels “exceeded the upper limit of measurement… We are very sorry”

    http://enenews.com/kyodo-massive-amount-of-fukushima-radiation-data-could-be-wrong-figures-cannot-be-trusted-nhk-strontium-90-in-groundwater-close-to-ocean-160000-times-limit-actual-levels-had-exceed

  • a lot of American companies made a lot of money selling munitions and equipment to Russia which the Russians sold to the North Vietnamese so they could use them to kill Americans in South Vietnam.

    Legend has it that Ford built the Kama River truck factory in Russia that produced vehicles the Russians sold to the North Vietnamese so they could use them to kill Americans in South Vietnam.

  • Thanks for writing this, John. It is sound logic, of course. Thanks for leading the last stand against the idiocy of our species, and I’ll see you en route!

  • ulvfugl: I hope you’re okay over there with all that weather! I did see that article and this one earlier that said figures area were off by 10 times (or a measly thousand percent). So, with each measurement it gets orders of magnitude worse! Don’t worry though, RE says it can be reversed!

    http://enenews.com/record-high-10-million-bqliter-of-strontium-90-beta-emitters-finally-revealed-in-fukushima-plant-groundwater-1000-greater-than-what-tepco-claimed-for-last-6-months

  • Those who do not want to hear, might as well be deaf. Those who do not want to see, might as well be blind. Those who do not want to speak, might as well be voiceless. It serves no purpose to shout at them. Or to show them. Or to listen to them.

    The weight of humanity bears down without unified conscience, weak and divided, spooked around by intimidation and violence like a mob of dumb beasts, crushing everything it leans on. Isolated individuals fully aware of the horror cannot alter the course. Only a great spontaneous synchronicity of intention has ever turned a tide of this magnitude. Sometimes that happens when a critical mass gets sick and tired of suffering. But there has never been a lasting sanity, it is too easily upset… it only takes a few belligerents susceptible to crass motivations.

    Humanity is status quo in vivo. We all play our little role in business as usual. So… as far as the art and practice of protest is concerned, to whom it may concern: My humble suggestion would be to touch, within yourself, the common thread, the universal tie, the essence of what it means to be human… to fuel and stoke and coax, and allow… the revolutionary power of spontaneous synchronicity of intention. That might help buy us a slower, gentler, more humane landing, some grace and dignity, and perhaps delay a few species from their premature end. Things are really dire for us and all complex life now, disintegration is accelerating. We have no confidence that any action can provide salvation. It may well be too late… but, we might as well try.

    To the despondent and to the arrogant this sounds like a bunch of BS. Good. May it fertilize their souls.

  • The Great March: Toward A Different Perspective On Climate

    Everyone here in this room
    Must find his or her way, I presume;
    My own mental preps
    Have been slow tiny steps
    To a fuller acceptance of doom.

  • Tom,

    In other words, grow your own food and we zap you with a drone. Don’t grow your own food and starve to death. Might as well risk the former.

  • I have reached the point where all news out of Fukushima makes me laugh.
    Off by a 1000% is one of those moments.

  • From The Financial Times, Asia-Pacific section:

    Pacific trade winds are stalling global warming, scientists say

    Researchers have cast new light on one of the most baffling riddles in climate science: why has global warming stalled when emissions of the greenhouse gases blamed for climate change have kept soaring?

    The explanation lies in an unprecedented strengthening of Pacific trade winds over the past 20 years, according to a study by Australian and US scientists.

    These easterly winds, which blow across the tropics, have speeded up ocean circulation at the equator, pushing heat deep down into the ocean’s depths and bringing cooler water up to the surface.

    This has driven more cooling in other regions and accounts for much of the reason why global average air surface temperatures have stayed virtually steady since 2001, says the paper, published in this week’s Nature Climate Change journal.

    This pause could persist for much of the present decade if the strong trade winds continue, but the paper warns that once they slow down “rapid warming is expected to resume”.

    “Scientists have long suspected that extra ocean heat uptake has slowed the rise of global average temperatures, but the mechanism behind the hiatus remained unclear,” said the study’s lead author, Professor Matthew England of the Australian Research Council’s Centre of Excellence for Climate System Science.

    The implications of the research were of concern, he added. “We should be very clear: the current hiatus offers no comfort. We are just seeing another pause in warming before the next inevitable rise in global temperatures.”

    The stalling in air temperature rises, which follows a steady trend of warming through much of the 20th century, has led some to question whether climate change is a serious problem, or whether it exists at all. …

    For the entire article, click the link in the title.

  • Col. Klink, one should know their enemy. Apparently you have no idea who the enemy is.

    The U.S. came away from Vietnam with lots of money for corporations and tons of disgrace for everyone else. Supporting U.S. operations there will forever bar an individual from redemption. The disgrace continues each and every day. The brave soldiers in the video had walked through a fire much harder to face than the fire of war! They had found the strength to walk through the fire of Truth, the fire that cleanses a man and leads to repentance!

    All the Honor and all the Glory goes to the young fighters of Vietnam. EVERYBODY, except us, knows how they Triumphed!

    Because I’m not afraid to see what we did, I carry the burden of shame for my society.

  • It’s worth your time to see all 8 segments of the video. Just go to Utube and start part fucking 2.

  • logspirit

    Don’t tell RE about the ‘Pacific trade winds are stalling global warming’, she-he will have a fit of contorted mobius loop rationalizations trying to spin it as ‘Not really all that Bad’, demonstrating for all to see his-her’s complete lack of comprehension of earth science and basic physics.

    Having never even manned or womanned up to explaining how even the Methane Bomb, Feedback Numero Uno, will bring on NTHE, the trade wind thing is way over his-her’s pay grade.

  • Another comment (while logged in) eaten by NBL.

    Good luck with the march, John. The show is for the choir: you already know that the sheeple are in thrall to the mainstream mass media.

    To others, yes, the planetary human biomass will be converted into greenhouse gases and minerals in The Final Cull. Making Genghis Khan and Herr Schicklgruber look positively saintly.

  • Friedrich Kling is a proud man and there are certain emotive topics about which he is extremely sensitive, these being aliens, nationality, and forest conservation.

    Friedrich has insulted me personally by stating that I used fake names on this blog, which was untrue, and for which I never received an apology.

    He also declared war upon me because I want hard evidence before I accept his conclusion that aliens exist. The latter doesn’t bother me, the former…hmmm, well, he claims to be a gentleman. I don’t really care.

    But this matter of Vietnam. This IS troubling.

    Dear Friedrich. Let us put all else aside. (I respect and admire your love of forests, of course.)

    Not long ago you admonished someone for besmirching the name of Germany by failing to make a distinction between the acts of the Nazis and the German people.

    You said, re the genocide in S. America, that people do not speak of the Spanish or the Portuguese as having been responsible, but of the Conquistadores. Or at least, they should, to be accurate.

    I noted that point and considered it, and I think it was very well made.

    Imo, whenever these appalling events occur, wars and genocides and atrocities, it is a grave error to apportion blame to some ethnic label, when the people so labelled never had any say or control over the event.

    The blame, the responsibility, lays with those who issue the orders and those who carry out the orders.

    Now, you say those words ‘did their duty’.

    These are TERRIBLE words, Friedrich. As you will recall, from the the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal, it was established under international law that ‘I was just obeying orders’ is not an excuse for committing a crime.

    Obviously, I am vastly over-simplifying, for brevity, but I think that an intelligent man like yourself will catch my drift.

    In the case of Vietnam, the crimes committed, and we know there were very many, were done by Americans. Not some sort of proxy ‘conquistadore’ type of Americans, but drafted regular American military soldiers. But at least it was sort of an ‘official war’.

    But what about the totally ILLEGAL and SECRET war, that was waged against Cambodia and Laos ?

    What about the war crimes against the innocent men, women and children of those countries, and what about the people who issued the orders and obeyed the orders and did their duty, and who have never been held to account ?

    I am curious if you have a view on this that you are willing to express in public ?

    http://peterslarson.com/2010/12/15/us-bombings-in-laos-1965-1973/

    http://walrusmagazine.com/article.php?ref=2006.10-history-bombing-cambodia&page=

  • “Don’t tell RE about the ‘Pacific trade winds are stalling global warming’, she-he will have a fit of contorted mobius loop rationalizations trying to spin it as ‘Not really all that Bad’, demonstrating for all to see his-her’s complete lack of comprehension of earth science and basic physics.”-RE doppelganger

    WTF are you talking about here? You are a Physics Professional too? I already been through this shit with Lidia, the Thermodynamics Expert.

    Join us in the NBL Revesibility thread on the Forum instead of dropping on off topic comments here on the Blog.

    RE

  • It is not acceptable for RE to be stalking people and telling them what and where to post commentary.

  • RE is not well. He is special. He knows best. Accept that he is an asshat. Let go or be dragged.

  • 1) On Atrocities: Civilizations wage war on their neighbors to control resources. Demonizing the “enemy” makes it “okay.” When SHTF, your need for resources will lead you to make an enemy of your neighbor so you can take his resources – so, it makes it all easier if you frame it in your mind that he is Evil – so you can kill him and eat his children and still sleep at night. Civilizations need resources and they also seem to have an insatiable appetite for growth – see #2:

    2) On Overpopulation: Yes, the problem, but not the root of the problem. Civilizations formed – that’s a fact. Why they formed – I am not an expert – but I figure families grew into tribes and somehow they decided to settle down, plant crops, and build cities. Anyway, civilizations created division of labor, hierarchy, politics, etc. To grow, they needed resources – and as long as they could expand unopposed, good for them – until they stepped on someone else’s toes – then they needed soldiers, more land, more food, more everything… And here we are today, choking on our own success.

    3) On Protest March: I will echo the earlier comment: What do you want DONE exactly? I wonder if you have understood ALL that Guy is saying here at NBL. The problem now is that there is no solution – if you shut down Industrial Civilization, millions die. Uncontrolled dismantling of IC means billions die – and that’s where we are headed anyway. When SHTF, via extreme climate chaos or extreme economic collapse or extreme worldwide warfare or some combination, we will all be scrambling around like cockroaches.

    When SHTF, B9K9 figures he’ll be an officer in the “organization” such that he will end each day with a full belly and blood-stained hands.

    Others here will tend their gardens until the marauding hordes find them or the “organization” ships them off to work camps. And when the nuclear plants all go FUK-U-SHIMA, you will wish you had died sooner.

    It’s over people. It was over the day some silly human decided to plant crops and build cities.

    We could have lived forever in balance with nature. Respect all life, do not take ANY life – eat only nuts & berries that fall naturally from the trees. Live simply, die young, and be free.

    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement.
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia.
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  • The corollary to ‘concern trolling” on NBL i.e.

    “climate change is really bad, I know that, I feel your pain, I feel EVERYONE’s pain, I even vaguely know some scientific terms and stuff, but it’s not the end it’s the world (NTE)or anything, you know like, cause EVERYTHING is, you know like, so UNCERTAIN, but honestly humans are so spunky and plucky, and by gosh give them a few more decades (cough, cough=centuries) they can find their own asses with both hands and they can win one for the Gipper…yadayadayada..and Save the Day!”

    is ‘controlled opposition’ i.e.

    “A controlled opposition is a protest movement (environmental protest) that is actually being led by government agents. Nearly all governments in history have employed this technique to trick and subdue their adversaries.

    Notably Vladimir Lenin who said, “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”

    BTW: Count Mirabeau was part of the controlled opposition, because although everyone thought he was supporting the revolution, in reality he supported the monarchy and was a personal friend of the king. He was a government agent.”

  • “The Church of Euthanasia.
    Save the planet, kill yourself.”

    -Pat

    You First.

    If you really believe change is irreversible, how will commiting Global Sepuku save the Planet?  The CO2 will keep increasing whether HS is here or not.  The Nukes will all go FukU also.

    “We could have lived forever in balance with nature.”

    Nothing lives forever.  Another few 100m years, the SUN will output too much radiation for any eukaryotic organisms to survive.  In a couple of Billion years, it will vaporize the Planet.  This has always been a time constrained experiment.

    RE

  • As for a good debunking, I have yet to see one. I’m not just talking about the methane clathrate gun or 2030. There is much more than that.

    The problem is that there’s nothing to debunk. There is very little evidence how much or how fast any of these loops will run, what their natural limits are, how much they will be countered with negative loops, etc. We don’t really know any of these things.

    Guy does a nice job of listing these feedbacks. Then he jumps to wild predictions (3.25C rise in 16 years is the new one, ten times the current warming rate). What I don’t see are the in-between steps of quantifying the feedback loops and incorporating them into climate physics. He quotes other people, but these other folks aren’t quantifying the loops and running the physics either. Without numbers and physics, there’s nothing to debunk: it’s just picking numbers out of a hat.

  • On the way to NTE does one play Last Man Standing, Last Tribe Standing, or something else altogether? And what “Big Picture” should guide us?

    Lewis Howes’ The School of Greatness podcast episode number 50:

    Simon Sinek: Why Leaders Eat Last

  • A question for R.E.: On George Mobus’Question everything’ website,you state that you post comments under several names,most beginning with the letters R and E.(Jan 1 posting on that website,comment dated Jan 4) Are you the same person as the Roger Ellis posting here?

  • you’re worried about having a post eaten…just make a copy before you try to Submit. I always do that and it has saved me a couple of times.

  • Ha, Jersey Patriot
    the name alone says troll.

  • “Are you the same person as the Roger Ellis posting here?”

    No. Check out the content of his posts. He’s the Anti-RE. LOL.

    RE

  • “Lewis Howes’ The School of Greatness podcast episode number 50:

    Simon Sinek: Why Leaders Eat Last”

    🙂 Simon’s military references were instructive as well.

  • @ Roger Ellis

    “A controlled opposition is a protest movement (environmental protest) that is actually being led by government agents. Nearly all governments in history have employed this technique to trick and subdue their adversaries.

    Notably Vladimir Lenin who said, “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”

    BTW: Count Mirabeau was part of the controlled opposition, because although everyone thought he was supporting the revolution, in reality he supported the monarchy and was a personal friend of the king. He was a government agent.”

    Thanks for that.

    Yes, people need to understand that the whole of the internet has morphed into a cyber warzone. Once upon a time, way back in the stone age, it was about email and blogs and online shopping. That’s long gone. Now it’s like those natural history movies about deadly venomous insects disguised as harmless leaves and parasitic wasps that lay their eggs in the back of your neck after injecting an anaesthetic so you don’t feel the prick. You click on a link and it explodes and your brains are all over the bedroom wall. You can’t even feed the birds anymore, they’re all fucking drones spying on the neighbourhood. Sshhh!

    RE is a sort of recruiting sergeant over here fishing for customers for his SUN thingee. I don’t really blame him for doing that. If I had a project I’d probably be plugging it. Whether there’s some other more devious plot to weaken support for MacPherson, coming from the Diner, I doubt that myself, seems to me a whole bunch of loons and crazies who are thrashing ideas about trying to make sense of an absurd situation.

    I think it’s guaranteed certainty there’s a great many OTHER people who are intent on weakening support for McPherson though, there’s a whole lot who see the NTE thing as ‘negative’ and undermining ‘hope’, and there’s twits like Tobis, and all the people who want to keep civilisation going as long as possible, and the techno utopians and cornucopians, and the elite at the top of the heap who want the money to keep rising to the top, etc. I mean, someone who writes the quote below is not going to be popular in certain circles.

    In other words, near-term extinction of humans was already guaranteed, to the knowledge of Obama and his administration (i.e., the Central Intelligence Agency, which runs the United States and controls presidential power). Even before the dire feedbacks were reported by the scientific community, the administration abandoned climate change as a significant issue because it knew we were done as early as 2009. Rather than shoulder the unenviable task of truth-teller, Obama did as his imperial higher-ups demanded: He lied about collapse, and he lied about climate change. And he still does.

    We can get a glimpse of what those people are like, trying to overthrow the elected government of the Ukraine, whilst claiming to be in favour of ‘democracy’.

    http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/02/us-eu-united-to-overthrow-democracy-in-ukraine.html

  • In addition to establishing the extinction’s duration, Bowring, graduate student Seth Burgess, and a colleague from the Nanjing Institute of Geology and Paleontology also found that, 10,000 years before the die-off, the oceans experienced a pulse of light carbon, which likely reflects a massive addition of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. This dramatic change may have led to widespread ocean acidification and increased sea temperatures by 10 degrees Celsius or more, killing the majority of sea life.

    But what originally triggered the spike in carbon dioxide? The leading theory among geologists and paleontologists has to do with widespread, long-lasting volcanic eruptions from the Siberian Traps, a region of Russia whose steplike hills are a result of repeated eruptions of magma. To determine whether eruptions from the Siberian Traps triggered a massive increase in oceanic carbon dioxide, Burgess and Bowring are using similar dating techniques to establish a timescale for the Permian period’s volcanic eruptions that are estimated to have covered over five million cubic kilometers.

    “It is clear that whatever triggered extinction must have acted very quickly,” says Burgess, the lead author of a paper that reports the results in this week’s Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, “fast enough to destabilize the biosphere before the majority of plant and animal life had time to adapt in an effort to survive.”

    http://phys.org/news/2014-02-end-permian-extinction-yearsmuch-faster-earlier.html

  • RE is a sort of recruiting sergeant over here fishing for customers for his SUN thingee. I don’t really blame him for doing that. If I had a project I’d probably be plugging it. Whether there’s some other more devious plot to weaken support for MacPherson, coming from the Diner, I doubt that myself, seems to me a whole bunch of loons and crazies who are thrashing ideas about trying to make sense of an absurd situation.-UF

    Yes, that is partially true.  I make no secret of the fact I am a Plugger for the Diner and for SUN wherever I turn up on the web.  One of my many Tag Lines is

    PLUG THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF THE DOOMSTEAD DINER

    HTF do you get anybody interested or even cognizant of a project like this without Plugging it, eh?  You gotta get out there and make some NOISE.  In fact even getting into Napalm Contests with ideologues on various websites is good Advertisement!  I regularly go Mano-a-Mano with my old adversaries on TBP with their Capitalita/Libertarian/Racist spin all the time JUST for the purpose of plastering more Diner Links on the Web. LOL.

    Now, on the issue of whether we are all Looney Tunes on the Diner, of course we are!  Faced with an INSANE situation, SANITY is not a real good approach to the problem!  However, we do sport a first class Psychiatrist on the Diner, Uncle Bob holed up on his Doomstead in Tasmania who does a good job with Couching the Diner Psychos.

    At the same time though, I do not just drop on here to plug the Diner and SUN.  I’m genuinely interested in the take Guy has on this, though obviously I do not agree with it and I find a good deal of what the Commentariat writes to be INSANE in it’s own right.  I mean REALLY, “Save the Planet, Kill Yourself”?  Beyond the fact this represent depression in extremis, it WON’T WORK, by your own definitions!  The meme here is that this is irreversible, so regardless of whether the entire human race commits Sepuku or not, you STILL get runaway Global Cooking!

    After all of that, fact of the matter is I really ENJOY sparring with people who have contrary viewpoints ot my own. and there are a few decently erudite people here to spar with, you UF are one of them.  Of course, the site also has it’s share of dimwits also, whose names I will not mention out of courtesy.  LOL.

    RE

  • I’ve posted a new essay from Geoffrey Chia, along with a few links to information. It’s all here.

  • The Diner’s SUN project is like Rodeo Clowns building a better tomorrow by seizing the moment.

    Well, not so much

  • “Now, on the issue of whether we are all Looney Tunes on the Diner, of course we are! Faced with an INSANE situation, SANITY is not a real good approach to the problem!”

    I wish more folks understood this.

  • @ RE

    “Save the Planet, Kill Yourself”

    That comes from pat. pat is a precious resource. pat represents the ultra nihilist wing of NBL. If pat was not there, then we would have to invent pat. Fortunately for us all, pat is still there.

    Albert Camus wrote :

    I see many people die because they judge that life is not worth living. I see others paradoxically getting killed for the ideas or illusions that give them a reason for living (what is called a reason for living is also an excellent reason for dying). I therefore conclude that the meaning of life is the most urgent of questions.

    From pat’s perspective this is childish sentimental romanticism. The revered Camus is mired in hopium and the absurd notion that life has meaning and therefore there is some point in asking questions. What a pathetic delusional fool he was !

    In many ways pat is far wiser and more mature than Camus. Think about that. A humble nonentity, an unknown and unknowable accountant from fucking Denver who nobody gives a shit about, staring out of the window, is of greater stature than one of the massive famous literary figures of the 20th C. but nobody even notices…

    pat hates me. I’m quite proud that pat hates me. He’s one of the greats. Doesn’t matter what you hit him with, he never moves. Fucking rock. Hall of Fame.

  • @ Roger Ellis

    I love the look in that bull on the right’s eye, waiting for his turn.

    This is the imagery I had in mind. I think RE is going to end up like one of the insects in this video if he keeps coming over here proselytising.

  • “That comes from pat. pat is a precious resource. pat represents the ultra nihilist wing of NBL. If pat was not there, then we would have to invent pat. Fortunately for us all, pat is still there.”-UF

    Of course you like Pat.  You’re a misanthrope.  Nihilists and Misanthropes are like Kissin’ Cousins.  LOL.  However, besides the fact this is clinically insane AND ineffectual, it’s also intellectually dishonest to advocate for it and still be walking the earth.

     

    As to your opinion that Pat’s philosophy is wiser and more mature than Camus, it has been Duly Noted & Filed.Smiley

     

    RE

  • @ RE

    No, pat is far from being clinically insane, such categories are devised by psychiatrists, a profession captured by Big Pharma, that knows nothing of the elevated philosophical territory inhabited by such as pat.
    When pat gazes through a window he sees anti-existence. Not many people can do that, it’s a high order accomplishment. You think pat cares whether he walks the Earth or doesn’t walk the Earth ? pat has a refined and exquisite knowledge about the matter, as if it were no more than a crack in a window pane. Why be troubled about such a thing ? You, RE, are like an infant, whimpering and mewling, you have not even BEGUN to gaze into the Abyss.

    You smear my good name with that word misanthrope. Yes, I know people and I don’t like them very much. That’s why I vote for the crows. I know people like you, the name changer. How many have you had ? Let it not be twelve or you will have power to re-name the months and we will all have to follow your rules, just like fucking Commodus, and you will leave us no choice but to assassinate you.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodus#Megalomania_.28190.E2.80.93192.29

  • I’d like to request Guy to ask some well-qualified ecologist he knows to write us a piece, how we might help OTHER species fight back. Is that a possibility ?

    What is an “invasive species”?

    http://www.carolynbaker.net/2014/01/29/refugees-without-legs-how-climate-change-leaves-no-room-for-invasive-species-by-kollibri-terre-sonnenblume/

  • Loved the mushroom video. Perversely, especially enjoyed the bad porn soundtrack. I do love mushrooms and they do seem to have the last laugh.

  • My first reaction to NBL and NTE? Survival mode: Fight or flight. Since it seemed that “fight” was futile, even more so this time than all the “peace” or “progressive” efforts we had made over decades against entrenched capitalism’s destructive ways, I started searching out escape hatches.

    Once I had some candidate locations in mind, and a couple visited, the “fight” side of my brain started cooking up ideas to offer (elements of) humanity to explore as group actions, representing either a chance of survival or a “go down fighting” valiant effort to die with some dignity. Dog soldiers.

    RE represents part of that feeling to me, and I see him as an extroverted side of myself. In his role, I’d be doing everything just about the same. I’m glad he’s active with us.

    His attitude? Sometimes I describe myself, going forward, as “an old dude with a bad attitude.” I suspect RE and I have that in common, and would probably clash like competitive twin brothers, who know each other entirely too well. Creative friction?

    Just what it takes to have a chance to survive, and whether that is relevant anymore, it’s what our biology calls for.

    The Jews at Masada did not “give up and die” until the Romans really were pouring over their walls, even though the inevitable end was seen for months in advance.

  • “You, RE, are like an infant, whimpering and mewling, you have not even BEGUN to gaze into the Abyss.”-UF

    Nonsense.  I have The Abyss on Speed Dial on my Samsung Galaxy Mega.

    “You smear my good name with that word misanthrope. Yes, I know people and I don’t like them very much

    That is the DEFINITION of the word UF.

    mis·an·thrope
    ˈmisənˌTHrōp,ˈmiz/
    noun
    a person who does not like other people.
    From Wiki:
    Misanthropy is the general hatred, distrust or disdain of the human species or human nature. A misanthrope, or misanthropist is someone who holds such views or feelings
    It’s not a smear if it’s a true statement.  If the shoe fits, wear it.
    RE


  • @ RE

    Pfff. I have a far more refined, sophisticated and nuanced attitude toward the human species than crude generalised misanthropy.
    I don’t need to be told what the word means. I know what the word means.
    I respond badly to Americans telling me what English words mean.

    https://youtu.be/1IvWoQplqXQ

  • Pfff. I have a far more refined, sophisticated and nuanced attitude toward the human species than crude generalised misanthropy.

    I don’t need to be told what the word means. I know what the word means.
    I respond badly to Americans telling me what English words mean. -UF

    UF, you respond badly to anyone telling you anything you think you know more about then they do. If said person is an Amerikan, this is just Icing on the Cake.  I seriously doubt it if you would respond well to a Chinese calling you a 憤世嫉俗者 either. Fucking Tardigrades will be extinct before you respond well to anything that contradicts your sophisticated and nuanced approach to Misanthropy.

    Hey, I have the Abyss on the Skype Video here.  Any questions before I sign off?

    RE

  • Hmmmm…You a Type 8, RE ?

    Might be worth making a documentary about you.

    I know someone. Interested ?

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeEight.asp

  • Long as I can PLUG the Diner & SUN, I will be happy to do a Documentary. 🙂

    Really UF, I got no problem playing the Clown. I do it all the time. Clowning is FUN. Most folks can’t clown, they take themselves too seriously. So far, you appear to be one of those people.

    RE

  • The point of the Church of Euthanasia and The Voluntary Extinction Movement, I think, is to shine a light on the fact that human overpopulation is killing not only humans but also Every Living Thing on Earth – so, getting rid of humans isn’t “saving the planet” but really it’s just making the effort to save the non-human life on Earth.

    And, yes, it’s too late – BUT, if humans would stop procreating – and if a whole bunch of humans would kill themselves – then MAYBE the Earth’s other life forms could live, not all, but some. So, you have to ask yourself: “Will you kill yourself so a dolphin might live?” It might be helpful if we could quantify the impact of our every breath – like, each day you live in Industrial Civilization, 600 dolphins will die. Each can of soup you buy, open, and stick in the microwave, eat, then poop and flush down the toilet means 100 bees will die. Then maybe we could see ourselves as we really are – destroyers of the natural world.

    Of course, we need some humans to live in order to dismantle the toxic infrastructure of Industrial Civilization – and decommission the nuclear power plants, etc., otherwise, it’s pretty much futile.

    Because we all know that nothing is going to be done – no organized Voluntary Extinction Movement will be widely accepted – we will all ride this runaway train over the cliff into NTHE and the extinction of Every Living Thing on Earth.

    Here at NBL, Guy has made the case. We can quibble all we want about “What it all means,” “How did this happen,” and “What should we do?” Nothing changes the facts.

    I’m well educated and well read. I was a successful member of the business world. I enjoyed the benefits of Industrial Civilization. But, then I began to question the whole thing – and I also began to think that “the whole thing” was corrupt and wrong. Then I found NBL, John Michael Greer, and X-Ray Mike. I came to believe that human civilization was the thing that brought us here. I don’t know WHY humans began to form civilizations – maybe planting crops and building cities was inevitable or maybe it wasn’t – I don’t know. All I know is that I believe that none of this would have happened if humans had just remained with the monkeys.

    Sure, you can take any number of positions on the many aspects of the human experience – one might say that we are great and wonderful beings that have art, music, literature, science, etc., and civilization made it all possible. And, although it looks like mostly crap now, it was good while it lasted. So be it.

    As one who does not believe in the everlasting spirit beyond this physical plane, I have nothing invested in “the future.” Just as I know that one day I will be dead, I believe that one day the Earth will be dead, the Sun will be dead, the solar system, the galaxy, the Universe. So, in the end, it doesn’t matter if we “save the planet,” because, really, there is no saving it – the inevitable end cannot be avoided. The dolphins, the whales, the birds, and the bees will all be dead – and what’s the difference really between 1,000 years, 10,000 years, 100,000 years, a million years, a billion years, etc?

  • @ RE

    Me, take me seriously ? Not me. YOU just took me seriously. It was not a serious offer. I was amusing myself at the prospect of displaying you, as exemplified in that clip, to millions of tv viewers, who would gasp and clasp their hands to their mouths as they saw the mutant apparition revealed, you know, ‘freak of nature’ kind of stuff.

    @ pat

    …and what’s the difference really between 1,000 years, 10,000 years, 100,000 years, a million years, a billion years, etc?

    I’m no accountant, but seems to me it’s 0+0+0+0 and so on, and if you add ’em all up, it equals zero, which equals nothing at all, so there’s no difference at all.

    So, it’s all a total waste of time in the first place. Might just as well never have bothered to begin with.

    Maybe.

    I asked my zen master if she thought the Universe had any meaning.

    She said she didn’t know.

    I asked her if she thought it might be benign in any way.

    She said she didn’t know.

    She said she knew it could not prevent us being kind to one another.

    But I think you must carry on hating me.

    I find it very reassuring. It’s a comfort 🙂

    I would like to be sitting on the other side thinking I wonder what that fucker is thinking, gazing out through the window. Whatever it is, I hate him. That would be true misanthropy.
    Unfortunately, or fortunately, I’m unable to achieve the purity of THAT position.

    My inner world…. is so rich… the outer world… there is so much..
    It’s not ‘belief’, it’s experience, but never mind… 🙂

  • @ pat

    Seriously, I often think of your ‘I hate u’.
    It makes me smile. It makes me happy.
    I’m really glad you’re there/here.
    I think your position is awesome.

    I’ve checked out all the philosophical stances that people have had over history and that people can take towards existing. I have tremendous respect for your position, I really mean that, in all sincerity, I’m not kidding or teasing, hardly anybody ever arrives where you have and actually expresses it and lives with it, and to be able to say it, in such laconic terms, just blows me away.

    I’ve always been sort of waiting for you to crumble and relent and show that you’d been faking all along, but that was my cynicism, I owe you an apology.

  • Brilliant, all of you! Yes, pat has been expressing more clearly than ever, truly an intelligence to measure our feeble hopes against…

    This is getting to be like one of those obscure Hong Kong martial arts movies, and we’re all training together, at each others’ throats much of the time, until we get attacked by the “bad” dojo from across town…

  • @ Henry

    Hahahaha, you’re brilliant tooo 🙂

    https://youtu.be/frWKqRdJBHY

  • The point of the Church of Euthanasia and The Voluntary Extinction Movement, I think, is to shine a light on the fact that human overpopulation is killing not only humans but also Every Living Thing on Earth – so, getting rid of humans isn’t “saving the planet” but really it’s just making the effort to save the non-human life on Earth.-Pat

    It’s a stupid concept.

    First of all, even if a Billion People commited Sepuku tomorrow, it wouldn’t save any Dolphins.  Second, generally speaking only people who are completely depressed who see no way out of their troubles will off themselves.  OK, Japanese will do it as a matter of Honor also.  However, globally speaking you are not going to find enough people who are that hopeless or that honor driven to pull the plug on themselves.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GwKcJzTHIcQ/TfyAEA2Oc6I/AAAAAAAAAZM/__4pFEZf6M0/s1600/when-sorry-just-isnt-good-enough-seppuku-harakiri-sorry-demotivational-poster-1265254435.jpg

    “All I know is that I believe that none of this would have happened if humans had just remained with the monkeys.”

    It would have happened whether we were swinging through the trees or swinging at golf blls in Florida. It’s happened 5 times before this already, why would it not happen again?  It might have been on a slightly different timeline, but in geologic terms, not a very significant difference.

    The main challenge here is to see whether it is survivable or not.  Only time will tell on that one.

    RE

  • “Me, take me seriously?”-UF

    All the time.  I’ve been reading the commentary here for months, and have yet to see you exit your self-righteous misanthropic certainty of outcome persona to crack a joke even ONCE.  You are like an old Endless Loop 8 Track Tape  of Depressingly Dour Doom Tunes.  You are as predictable as the sunrise every morning.  LOL.

    RE

  • @ RE

    First of all, even if a Billion People commited Sepuku tomorrow, it wouldn’t save any Dolphins.

    Of course it would. Don’t you know who are killing the dolphins ? Just needs to be the right billion.

    You just don’t understand my humour RE, it’s much too subtle, nuanced and refined for your crude Amerikan sensibilites.

    I mean, you post a photo of a guy with glued on plastic ears and think you’re being profound. I expect something like a line from Michel de Montaigne or Petrarch or Epicurus.

    You know ‘Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.’

    What do I get ? Fucking Amerikanish tv junk with plastic ears. Sigh.

  • Of course it would. Don’t you know who are killing the dolphins ? Just needs to be the right billion.-UF

    Even if you selectively sent the entire world fishing fleet to Davey Jones Locker it wouldn’t save any Dolphins.  They’ll die from loss of Habitat by Guy’s own analysis from further ocean acidification, which is “irreversible”.  Don’t you understand the concept of irreversibility?

    I expect something like a line from Michel de Montaigne or Petrarch or Epicurus.

    Epicuri pisces mortui mauris.

    “Non, non interest, quia quamdiu est, mors non est hic. Et cum venerit, iam non esse.

    Quo facto, et credebat quod es Libitinarius subtilior.


  • @ RE

    You don’t seem to understand what the significance of the time axis on your pretty graphs signifies.

    Of course the sands of Present Time are running out from under our feet. And why not ? The Great Conundrum: ‘What are we here for ?’ is all that ever held us here in the first place. Fear. The answer to the Riddle of the Ages has actually been out in the street since the First Step in Space. Who runs may read but few people run fast enough. What are we here for ? Does the great metaphysical nut revolve around that ? Well, I’ll crack it for you, right now. What are we here for ? We are here to go !

    Brion Gysin

  • You don’t seem to understand what the significance of the time axis on your pretty graphs signifies.-UF

    I understand just fine UF.  However, existential questions about “What we are Here for” don’t plague me very much, except when I occassionally get suckered into such a debate with Ka, who can toast anybody here in Philosophical Navel Gazing and SWAMP you in more Barfield quicksand then anyone I ever met.

    The Graphs are what they are, I can do trend analysis as well as the next Math Geek out there, but I still can’t draw any firm conclusions because discontinuities disrupt any long term trend analysis.  That is why I always use the terminology of “Zero Point” when discussing the outcomes here, because once you extrapolate out to the point the graphs no longer make sense, something breaks in the system and you have to set new parameters.

    The issue at hand here though is Pat’s Euthanasia Church, which is a profoundly stupid and unworkable idea all round.  Homo Sapiens offing themselves in an effort to Save Dolphins won’t save any Dolphins, so WTF is the point of that, eh?  Besides the fact that there just are not enough profoundly Depressed people out there who will pull their own plug anyhow.  Pat isn’t pulling his plug, just pitching the idea out persistently.  If he really thought the idea would work and really valued Dolphins over his own life, he wouldn’t be here chatting.  It is intellectually dishonest stuff.

    Every day is an adventure.  I can’t predict how long the whole game will last here, way too many variables involved for that.  I can decide if I will try to figure out a way to live through tomorrow though, and the day after that also.  This is CFS for anyone who is not mired in angst over an end game they see as likely here, or who actually HOPE for Homo Sapiens to go Extinct because they look at this species as a Plague on the Earth.

    I don’t hope for NTHE, and I personally will try to stay alive as long as I can do so in a reasonable fashion. Try to help a few others do the same.  You got a different plan than that that is better?

    RE

  • @ RE

    Naah, you’re still caught up in trivia.

    You’re like a child that squeals with ecstasy when it sees the bottle full of milk and then howls with anguish when it’s finished and empty.

    This is your hope and non-hope, your day and night, your before and after. That’s where you live.

    pat has transcended that childish state. He’s seen through it and risen above it. It has nothing to do with depression. It’s a profound existential insight.

    All your ranting about ‘hope’ shows how little you understand about the true nature of being.

    You have a you which you ‘hope’ to carry forward. You are burdened with this baggage.

    I can’t speak for pat, but there are others who have written eloquently on the subject.

    What happens when you stop that ridiculous task ?

    You take it as a given that that task is what gives you and your life meaning.

    Events might force you to re-evaluate, who can tell, but others have deliberately sought to discover what would happen.

    What happens if a person abandons all sense of ‘a me’, ‘a self’, which strives to exist and maintain itself by ‘hoping’ for some sustenance, some incoming from the future, that satisfies needs ?

    Many people have tried this. It’s been written about. People wished to clarify the exact nature of their relationship with what they thought of as the Divine, or Providence, or Fate, or whatever.

    People have become homeless wanderers, to see what would happen, if you cast your destiny to the wind. That’s quite different to deliberately killing yourself, or wanting to be dead, or hating life.

    Does God hear prayers if one is sufficiently devout ? People wanted to know. They tried the experiment, many times.

    pat accepts that there is no such God. He looks out and sees nothing. Cold material stuff. He has thought deeply about it. Most people are not that brave.

    The zen masters in Japan built the zen gardens specifically for this kind of quest. So that a person can sit in solitude and peace for many hours and contemplate rocks which look like mountains, but which are not mountains, moss which looks like forests, but which is not forests, gravel which looks like rivers and seas, but which is not.

    Does it mean anything or is it meaningless ?

    After perhaps forty or fifty years sometimes some of them had something to say. Or not. 🙂

    Usually, when people arrive at pat’s position, they suddenly capitulate, and cave in, and you read any number of ‘confessions’ on forums and blogs, about ‘How I found Jesus’ blahblah, or how the ‘The Truth’ saved me, etc, by people who just couldn’t handle staring into that Abyss…. and I sort of groan with disappointment..

    Me, I think pat is amazing…

    Doesn’t mean I agree with him though 😉

  • Well then get your friend Ka to explain to you why the fact that humans disagree about anything is why any future will just be a replay of the past. Today a guy called RE hammers away at his keyboard affecting scorn for “existential questions.” Tomorrow a new Genghis Khan arises and claims 10,000 pigtailed scalps just to make a point.

  • Ka has already explained this in great detail. Got it covered.

    RE

  • ulv might not crack jokes — A fly comes in to a bar, asks the bartender, is that stool taken? — but he does have a sense of humour: an exceedingly dry one.

    Hey ulv, sorry I broke off from our conversation a while back, but I got depressed about something, that something being human nature. 🙂 Also, I couldn’t find a good way to ask you how you became a revolutionary when there were no revolutions to join that wouldn’t sound mocking, so I didn’t reply.

    Kind of awkward, like admitting that the TV character I like the most is Marilyn Whirlwind.

  • @ Martin

    Um. Well. Yes.

    That’s a joke, btw.

    My kind of humour.

    I make jokes all day long. They are usually more like zen koans, but my dog understands and appreciates them.

    Yes, the revolutionary thing is tricky.

    I was in the Fanatasio Club in Amsterdam, and I was explaining to someone – it was the ’60’s you understand – that it was my intention to devote my life to changing the world, the implication being some sort of revolutionary change. Conversation was extremely difficult because the music was so loud that it made one’s bones vibrate.

    Anyway, a crowd of people came in and said that the University had been successfully occupied and was being held as a centre for the revolution. The next step was to take over the city, after that, the country, after that Europe, after that, the world.

    They wanted reinforcements to assist in fighting off attacks by the police.

    The fellow I was talking to was possibly aforementioned Brion Gysin or possibly some other maniac, from that school of maniacs, lectured me at great length concerning Krishnamurti’s theory that there is only one revolution to be had, that being the revolution of the mind.

    The ferociously loud music was

  • I see. That is indeed something. Silly of me to think there was no revolution to join. Oddly, I know someone who lives in Amsterdam who was a revolutionary and who wrote this.

    I did a quick search for Brion Gyson and got this: Burroughs once said that Brion Gysin was the only man he ever truly respected. ….. seems to believe), that the man is a criminally insane psychopathic wanker.

    Unfortunately, the page had many entries and the wanker part turned out to be a reference to Nestlé CEO Peter Brabeck-Letmathe.

    What did Terence McKenna mean again when he said, “Culture is not your friend”?

  • @ Martin

    Thanks for that interesting link. I am as cynical as can be re almost everything and almost everyone… but this is the Beach of Doom. Even cynicism is totally pointless.

    Burroughs. The scion of the typewriter fortune. He who lay on his back on a mattress in Morrocco, and when ‘a friend’ visited found himself thinking only whether there was some money in the man’s pockets he get at somehow, to buy his next fix.

    I was possibly lead astray by Krishnamurti. I was persuaded by the argument. Now, in retrospect, consider where we have arrived, I think Lierre Keith makes a stronger case.

    Back in those days, it seemed more likely that we would all get fried from nuclear armageddon than that we all die now from climate apocalypse, which nobody had heard of, so the ‘Let’s stop the wars’ argument’ seemed more pressing than the ‘Let’s stop the industrial juggernaut’ argument, although they are really much of a muchness.

    Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac, Gysin, all those people, much as I love them in a way, I also have a certain contempt for them all, and many others on the lunatic fringe, probably draw the line about around the Gary Snyder mark…

    It’s the fin d’siecle decadence thing. All the great geniuses and inspired artists who carry the human species into new regions and find new ways of seeing, take great risks, and so they have to be adventurers and reckless fools, and out there in the twilight zone, they inhabit the crazy inbetween world, like Warhol and all his freaky crew, depravity and drug overdoses and there’s so much that I find repellant… it’s so disrespectful towards some other people I love.

    I really don’t think Sid Vicious contributed anything worthwhile, no I really don’t. You look at the 19th C. same thing, Alfred Jarry and Rimbaud, Baudillairre and the crazy Parisian nightlife, they’re all taking opium and absinthe and it takes a long time to distil out the few gems of true genius from all the trash.

    We have the mythic motif that genius rock stars, poets, actors have to die early from overdoses of booze and drugs, e.g. Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Bert Jansch’s Needle of Death, romanticising tragedy, and so loads of people get into it, who don’t have any of the genius, just the early death. It’s a shame.

    I think what McKenna meant was culture in the sense that we are all embedded in what we take to be ‘normal’. That’s our culture. We assume that’s ‘the right way to be’. For the Romans, it would have been going to the Circus Maximus to watch the gladiators fighting. For us it’s watching tv and driving in cars. For the Aztecs it was watching people’s hearts being ripped out on the pyramids.

    That sort of culture. McKenna concludes that we can break out of it, break the spell, by being creative, by art. But I think he was mistaken. It’s been tried, and it didn’t work. It’s the same sort of idea that Reich had, that the problem was sexual repression, and if we could all just get rid of our inhibitions and have lots of free love, that’d fix things. That didn’t work either.

    There’s the P-Orridge thing. Subvert everything. That has not worked either, as far as I can tell.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Breyer_P-Orridge

  • @RE:
    I don’t understand why you are so down on Pat- he has said:
    “Of course, we need some humans to live in order to dismantle the toxic infrastructure of Industrial Civilization – and decommission the nuclear power plants, etc., otherwise, it’s pretty much futile.”
    So… sounds like he may be just the kind of help you need to make a start on the first one of those cobalt/depleted uranium thingies you are planning to drop into the Marianas trench? Just imagine.. you may have to recruit your workforce from the Church of Euthanasia…

  • @UF

    In this post you wrote:

    You’re like a child that squeals with ecstasy when it sees the bottle full of milk and then howls with anguish when it’s finished and empty.-UF

    In a prior post you wrote:

    “You, RE, are like an infant, whimpering and mewling”

    You apparently have a fetish for using infant/child metaphors in Ad Hom argument as a means to belittle the opponent.  As everybody knows, ad hom is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.

    Insofar as the rest of your diatribe is concerned, it’s philosophical navel gazing without a whole lot of practical value.  It also doesn’t address the issues at hand, which is that by your own principles of irreversibility, mass sepukku of HS won’t save any dolphins, or that it is intellectually dishonest to advocate OTHER people commit suicide while you stay Online and pitch the idea over the internet.

    RE

  • @ RE

    I see philosophy as a sort of journey where one grows or matures through stages of insight.

    It’s quite separate from chronological or physical or temporal age. Some very young children can be astonishingly wise and some very ancient people incredibly shallow and facile.

    So my estimation of you, while it is somewhat disrespectful, because I am slightly annoyed by all the pressure you exert to be positive and hopivistic, is not really ad hom.

    ‘Philosophical navel gazing’ is a term of abuse, rather akin to ‘conspiracy theory’, typically used by people to deflect attention away from something they don’t want you to look at, or they want to dismiss, or they don’t understand.

    Does the Universe have any ‘practical value’ ? I don’t think I look upon the world, people, life forms, primarily, as items of utility.

    Personally, I’m not encouraging or advocating suicide. I suffer from Suicide Headache. I’m very familiar with the mental territory. It’s been discussed quite often on NBL. It’s a scary area to explore and many people find it difficult to talk about.

    I knew someone who worked for the Samaritans for three years. We had a lot of conversations. I’ve read books on the subject. I phoned them myself quite a few times in my youth, and tried suicide quite a few times.

    A lot of people believe they need to hope to keep on living. I understand that. Just that it’s no longer my personal position. I’ve moved on.

  • So my estimation of you, while it is somewhat disrespectful, because I am slightly annoyed by all the pressure you exert to be positive and hopivistic, is not really ad hom.-UF

    Nonsense.  It’s a textbook example of ad hominem argument.  Since you clearly are not conversant with the English language or with Latin, here’s the dictionary definition:

    ad ho·mi·nem

    [ad homuh-nuhm -nem, ahd‐] Show IPA

    adjective

    1.

    appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason.
    2.

    attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.
    You keep talking about ME.  You don’t address issues #1 or #2 above at all.
    I’ve moved on.
    Indeed you have.  You have moved on to become a misanthropic NTHE fanatic.  Nobody disputes that.
    RE
  • Now that’s just boring, RE.

    You don’t HAVE any arguments.

    All you have is wishful thinking and yelling at people calling them quitters.

    That’s got really boring too.

    I have interesting stuff I must attend to

    Thanks for the distraction. See ya around.

  • Wow! So many responses; thank you everyone for your time; critiques, and support alike! I had trouble getting past the ‘gotcha’ code in trying to post answers, so I’ll try this again. The march set off date is looming and the kick off rally is set in the Bowels of the Beast, the Port of Los Angeles city of Wilmington; where the fossil fools are planning to expand processing of tar sands bitumen from 24,000 barrels a year to 60,000 barrels A DAY. They want to wreak this havoc quietly, figuring ‘why not’ add to the cancer cluster already there? Well, after all, they’ve gotten away with it so far.
    I’m kinda not interested in being so polite anymore. Is it crazy to believe there really is true evil in this world? Are there so many comfort seeking, complacent Adolf Eichmann’s, yet? It boggles the mind. I think I may spend much of this march just being boggled.

  • You’re the one pitching the Ad Hom here UF.

    Far as arguments go, there are plenty of them up on the Diner, anyone can read them whenever they like.

    You still did not address Points #1 & #2 above.

    Have a Nice Day.

    RE

  • People who invoke ad hominem are knobs. 🙂

    Specifically, those who cry ad hominem want their character left out of consideration because then their motives will escape scrutiny. And that’s just the motives they are aware of.

    More specifically still, ad hominem is the piece played when one’s disagreeableness as an opponent becomes the focus of the debate. That would be you, RE.

    Anyway, it’s perfectly in order for a misanthrope to attack a man’s character rather than his argument. To a misanthrope, a man’s character is inseparable from his argument, whatever its merits, in much the same way and for similar reasons that a man’s word choice tells you a great deal about him, and more FOOL you if you don’t pay attention to that.

  • “Anyway, it’s perfectly in order for a misanthrope to attack a man’s character rather than his argument.”-M

    Right.

    You didn’t address points #1 or #2 either.

    Lemme know when somebody around here wants to actually discuss the issues rather than justify character assassination.

    RE

  • Lemme know when somebody around here wants to actually discuss the issues rather than justify character assassination.

    How can my statement justify character assassination? It’s a groundless assertion. Mere sophistry. It’s what I like to do since I discovered no-one takes what I say seriously. Why would they? I’m a nebbish. Naturally, when I was younger, it troubled me that my arguments, however well made, were ignored but, over time, I’ve come to see that hardly anyone is ever persuaded by a good argument and, on the rare occasions they are, it is usually because they are intimidated by rank or status or the like that puts the stamp of authority on what is said.

    You have made it quite clear that you give no credit to anything said by a non-scientist, so why try to draw non-scientists into a debate?

  • “It’s the fin d’siecle decadence thing. All the great geniuses and inspired artists who carry the human species into new regions and find new ways of seeing, take great risks, and so they have to be adventurers and reckless fools, and out there in the twilight zone, they inhabit the crazy inbetween world, like Warhol and all his freaky crew, depravity and drug overdoses and there’s so much that I find repellant… it’s so disrespectful towards some other people I love.

    I really don’t think Sid Vicious contributed anything worthwhile, no I really don’t. You look at the 19th C. same thing, Alfred Jarry and Rimbaud, Baudillairre and the crazy Parisian nightlife, they’re all taking opium and absinthe and it takes a long time to distil out the few gems of true genius from all the trash.

    We have the mythic motif that genius rock stars, poets, actors have to die early from overdoses of booze and drugs, e.g. Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Bert Jansch’s Needle of Death, romanticising tragedy, and so loads of people get into it, who don’t have any of the genius, just the early death. It’s a shame.

    I think what McKenna meant was culture in the sense that we are all embedded in what we take to be ‘normal’. That’s our culture. We assume that’s ‘the right way to be’. For the Romans, it would have been going to the Circus Maximus to watch the gladiators fighting. For us it’s watching tv and driving in cars. For the Aztecs it was watching people’s hearts being ripped out on the pyramids.

    That sort of culture. McKenna concludes that we can break out of it, break the spell, by being creative, by art. But I think he was mistaken. It’s been tried, and it didn’t work. It’s the same sort of idea that Reich had, that the problem was sexual repression, and if we could all just get rid of our inhibitions and have lots of free love, that’d fix things. That didn’t work either.

    There’s the P-Orridge thing. Subvert everything. That has not worked either, as far as I can tell.”

    You’re kinda jumbling a whole bunch of people together. Art is for art’s sake (to me), and isn’t ultimately about reforming or saving anything. Just enjoyment, and/or altering one’s perceptions (to make you see, as conrad put it).

    If dead rock stars led others to early deaths, so what? Seems a bizarre concern on this kind of site.

    Decadent movement produced some wonderful writers like Mirbeau, Huysmans, and, yes, Baudelaire (the latter incidentally barely indulged in drugs, contrary to popular views- not that it matters).

    Better to have a short life filled with interesting art than a 90 year stretch just listening to Pachelbel.

    Reich’s grandiose notions wouldn’t change society, or even “cure” individuals. But it did give some people better orgasms.

  • @Martin — well-written prose, a pleasure to read you.

    “I’ve come to see that hardly anyone is ever persuaded by a good argument… ”

    Indeed, a realization I had about 8 years ago, two years post-divorce, with my daughter in a shop in Ulv’s territory of ancient Britain, waiting for the shopgirl to finish on the phone giving her lovelorn sister marriage or romance advice (“And if he says this, blah blah… it means you should… blah blah”)

    All of the round-the-corner, second-hand guesses and estimations, causes and effects lost in the mists, manipulations and anxious imaginings, pointless. Blah, blah, blah — unless of course, it’s what you ENJOY doing, and many people do so indulge themselves, and draw others in with the WORDS — but to no result.

    It came in the form of a resolve that “keeping things on good terms” with my ex was pointless, and that any conversation over 5 minutes with her was just to grind me down to a puddle of confusion, as the nether side of her personality kicked in. (Indeed, I could gradually replay and comprehend much of the marriage period with that new analytical insight.)

    In a burst of joy at the new learning, I told the shopgirl, told my daughter, and have maintained that resolve for myself, quite easily, since then, to no ill effect as yet, and much pain avoided.

    If someone is going to disrespect you, that’s from inside them, from THEIR lack of capacity, and no amount of “persuasion” is going to alter it.

  • “You have moved on to become a misanthropic NTHE fanatic. Nobody disputes that.”

    But of course EVERYONE disputes that assertion. That’s why folks here know you are a phoney – because folks who don’t agree with you are invisible. You talk to folks, not with them.

    You are a true asshat, and that’s why your precious SUN was stillborn.