Peak Moment TV

McPherson interviewed for Peak Moment TV. Catch the action here.

Comments 96

  • Thanks for the travel-log post RE. I’ve never been to your (once)beautiful state and probably won’t get the opportunity from here on out so I appreciate your view and comments. Like elsewhere, i’m seeing the collapse as slow at the moment, most notably the neglect of needed repairs, clean-up of blight and abandoned areas and (since it’s spring) POTHOLES!

    There just isn’t any money to do any of it, road maintenance, pipe-sewer-water line repair and upkeep, and re-building of damaged homes and businesses (which have led to insurance companies being on the verge of bankruptcy due to wide-spread claims and their denials, or cheapening, which keeps the industry alive another day). Once we hit the economic tipping point, the collapse will proceed much more quickly. Couple more years, maybe 5 tops and it will become plainly evident to everyone.

    As to your comment that trucking in snow for the Iditarod, or even the Olympics, is the single biggest waste of fossil fuels, i’d have to argue that mowing lawns is probably the more stupid and pointless and has (and is continuing to) waste FAR MORE of this dwindling resource. Just my 2 cents though.

  • Photos full of dead trees. No one notices.

  • Fred,

    Yes, unfortunately we find ourselves witnessing geologic time scale events happening so quickly that we have awareness of them over time spans as short as one or two decades.

    Like you, for most of my life I usually kept my mouth shut about these things with most people. (I had good awareness of the ecologically destructive processes in my early 20s; I have now almost reached 70.) Finally, I asked myself: “It’s okay for others around me continuously to fill the print and electronic media, as well as the social conversation space, with propaganda that strongly contributes to and supports killing me, my children, my grand children AND CAUSING THE EXTINCTION OF AT LEAST 200 OTHER SPECIES EVERY DAY, literally killing the planet, but it is presumably NOT okay for me to say things about this that others might resent or feel angry about?! What a fascinating social double standard we have here. In the face of what is happening–literally killing the planet that we all depend on for our lives, humans and most non-humans as well–I feel afraid of what others might think of me?! Some might even get angry with me?! Does this not collude with and support the most practically and morally destructive processes that anyone can imagine?!” I finally decided to grow up and get my priorities straightened out.

    I now take it as a personal challenge and responsibility to confront the issues: purposely to cut through the distractions, propaganda, and avoidance tactics, both subtle and blatant. In that process, I take it as a personal challenge NOT to lower myself to making personal attacks on other’s character, as so many people so often and so childishly do, but instead, insofar as possible, calmly to confront and state the truth based on the most reliable evidence available as I best understand it, not denying and avoiding it, but instead holding it glaringly in front of other’s noses. On one hand I hope not to say things in ways that cause others immediately to turn away, still deeper in their pathological avoidance and denial. But, on the other hand, one does not, and cannot, confront the most important issues without producing some uncomfortable cognitive dissonance in the process–eventually, especially related to the near term extinction issues, producing massive cognitive dissonance. So I work at practicing this skill of skating the constantly changing, fine line in various situations between productive confrontation and immediate turn-off. As a fallible human being, sometimes I seem to succeed; more often than I would prefer, sometimes I fail.


    Our deluded sense of self as separate from and superior to the rest of Nature lies at the root of many of our current and past personal, social, ecological, and global warming crises.

    We best argue not to achieve some kind of victory, but to achieve deeper, more accurate understanding.

    “It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” –Carl Sagan

    “The past was a Golden Age, of ignorance, while the present is an Iron Age of willful blindness.” —Jared Diamond, The Third Chimpanzee” [And it seems clear that positive, hopeful thinking contributes significantly to that willful blindness. –Bud Nye, 2013]

  • Kick Nafeez Ahmed in the ass for me.

    Why Things Are Way Worse Than You Can Even Imagine!

    When writing, the act of pouring your heart out onto the page hurts, but like crying, it feels so good when you’re done. It’s the same when you hit your finger with a hammer, it feels so good when you stop, but you’re embarrassed you didn’t stop sooner.

    The wonders of the ancient world have always been based on a demonstration of the power of elites to force slaves to construct their larger-than-life monuments. The ancient pyramids of Egypt resulted in a lot of suffering and remained the tallest human made structure for 3,800 years. Today’s monuments are only pyramid schemes in comparison, but they are still more profound than anything in all of earth’s history. Like those ancient monuments, today’s mega-cities are beyond anything humankind, and indeed all life on earth, will ever witness. So, what does it all mean? Read on.

    In Mexico City, 500 people are kidnapped and ransomed each and every month. There is only one gun store in Mexico City, and 7,000 gun stores just across the American border. Gee, thanks 40-year-old Drug War! In the Congo, over 2 million children have been raped, tortured, enslaved and murdered since 1998. The U.N. is suspected of helping to rig a major election there in 2006, and the E.U. has decided that a voluntary non-use of conflict minerals is the answer in 2014. Thanks to the U.N.’s 1990s embargo of Iraq, 500,000 children there died preventable deaths because hospitals couldn’t get the needed foods and medicines. So what does this have to do with price of tea in China? Keep reading, believe me, it’ll be worth it.

    I am no believer in life after death, but I suspect there is some kind of intelligent design in evolution simply because it’s just so plainly obvious. An Arctic hare’s fur doesn’t turn white in the winter and then back to brown in the summer for camouflage just because of random mutations over time. Does this mean I believe in some “higher power?” All life is a higher power to me and I don’t even pretend to understand it, but I normally believe what I see. That’s why magicians love me.

    Our eyes are über complex responses to electromagnetic waves, our ears are a complex response to slight variations in air pressure. A chameleon changes it skin colour to match random background colours. I think evolution is an inadequate hypothesis for explaining these sophisticated and complex survival responses to our environment. But, then again, what do I know?

    So, why are any two kids, raised by the same parents in the same way, able to be so different from one another? One may be a timid introvert, and the other a nasty bully. I believe it’s nature’s way of ensuring the survival of one of them due to unforeseen environmental circumstance. This is why we are always so divided. This division is why we will fail.

    Everyone knows that there are climate deniers on the political right. But, there are also extinction deniers on the left. Many progressives seem to magically think we will reduce energy and increase its efficiency, all while running our mega cities on some vague combination of renewable energy. I don’t see how this will be possible, when in 40 years the largest migration in human history will be near completion, as future cities strive to hold 80% of earth’s human population. But, I don’t think all cities have 40 years.

    A lot of urban people think that as long as you take transit and shop at farmer’s market, that you are not hurting the environment all that much. Nothing could be further from the truth. Cities are made of concrete, steel, glass and asphalt. All these things are the most carbon intensive products ever. Everywhere you walk, all the sidewalks, streets, condos and telecom buildings are paid for with your taxes and monthly bills. Almost everything we see, hear, feel and touch comes from devices that are made in China. Well over 5 million people were killed in the Congo for the conflict minerals we need for our smart phones to work, just so we can text, post and write the blogs we love to read.

    Renewable energy is a huge business run by mega corporations like General Electric, the same folks who brought us Fukushima. When G.E. was promoting nuclear power in the 1950s, they were telling us that it would be too cheap to meter, and that we would be driving around in nuclear powered cars. It’s the same hype being used by business interests in promoting green power. You’ve heard all about the sunny side of renewable energy, now let’s look at the dark side.

    Wind Turbines
    The manufacture of 5, one-megawatt, wind turbines produces 1 ton of radioactive residue and 75 tons of hazardous waste water used to extract and process the needed neodymium. Neodymium is a rare earth mineral. Rare earth minerals are not rare, but they are found in very low concentrations. Neodymium is extracted from crushed rocks using sulphuric acid, hydrochloric acid, and sodium hydroxide. Then it is processed using solvents, heating and vacuum techniques that require plenty of coal power. Vast unregulated tailings ponds of poisonous water have destroyed whole villages in China. There are 16 other rare elements. All with the same story.

    There is no known replacement for neodymium. During its mining, metals such as arsenic, barium, copper, aluminum, lead and beryllium may be released into the air or water, and is toxic to human health. Neodymium is in most electronic devices, but it is not used in small wind turbines, but can you imagine how many small windmills would be needed to run Toronto? Neodymium is only one of many rare earth metals that our smart phones and green energy systems need, and Canada is making efforts to mine them right now.

    Solar Panels
    Each solar panel requires 4 tons of coal to manufacture them because silicon has to be baked to 3,000°F. in order to produce them. The manufacture of solar panels lets off some of the deadliest greenhouse gases known to humankind. These include hexafluoroethane (12,000 times stronger than CO2), nitrogen trifluoride (17,000 times stronger than C02), and sulfur hexafluoride (23,000 times stronger than C02). Solar manufacturing plants produce 500 tons of hazardous sludge each per year. Such sludge is never included in the solar industry carbon footprint data.

    Bio-fuels are ecologically unsustainable. The crop mono-cultures are bio-diversity deserts that increase soil erosion and have a myriad of unexpected consequences. Stand in the middle of a corn field and you will notice nothing else lives there. Not even bees can survive. Food supplies are already at risk going forward. We don’t need fuel competing with food for what land we have available for agriculture, and we shouldn’t be chopping down more forests for more agricultural land.

    Rechargeable Batteries
    The rechargeable batteries we use in everything from the Tesla Electric Car, the Prius Plug-In Car and even our smartphones relies on one critical component, graphite. Graphite is one of the main causes of the terrible air pollution in China. It comes from airborne particles given off by mining operations that often washes down from the sky in the rain. Graphite particles foul the air and water; they also damages crops and human lung tissue. This type of smog has gotten so bad that China has shut down several of their graphite mines creating a shortage and higher prices. Right now, Algonquin natives in Kipawa, Quebec are fighting Toyota over a rare earth open pit mine planned for that area. Toyota wants that mine pit to make the batteries for its Prius. There is no such thing a “green” car.

    Energy conservation or efficiency doesn’t really save energy, but instead spurs economic growth and accelerated energy consumption.
    1/100th watt = 1 dollar of global economic activity
    500 megawatts = 1 average power plant
    600 megawatts = China’s increased coal use every 10 days for the next 10 years
    500,000 megawatts = 500 planned new nuclear plants for China by 2050
    25 billion megawatts = World power output in 2014
    Each year, C02 per megawatt of power increases
    Every 4½ days, 1,000,000 new carbon users are born.
    How many windmills, solar panels and batteries will give us 25 billion megawatts?

    Even the official predictions intensify.
    ► Hadley Centre for Meteorological Research (2009)……….. +4°C by 2060.
    ► United Nations Environment Programme (2010) up to……+5°C by 2050.
    These predictions do not include permafrost methane feedback because it is “too difficult” to model and is “too unpredictable.”

    We are emitting carbon faster than even the very worse scenarios of a mere few years ago. Serious climate scientists are saying that we will hit catastrophic climate heating in 13 to 20 years. While that doesn’t mean disaster will hit the very next day after hitting this point, it does mean very, very serious life-ending consequences will result. And, as bad as this news is, it is not the worst of it.

    The Sixth Mass Extinction: Were We Stand In 2014.
    Here is why you don’t have to worry about rising seas and temperatures.
    All you have to do is look at these numbers and project them forward.
    ► 90% of Lions gone since 1993.
    ► 90% of Big Ocean Fish gone since 1950.
    ► 50% of Great Barrier Reef gone since 1985.
    ► 50% of Fresh Water Fish gone since 1987.
    ► 30% of Marine Birds gone since 1995.
    ► 28% of Land Animals gone since 1970.
    ► 28% of All Marine Animals gone since 1970.
    ► 50% of all Vertebrate Species may gone by 2040.
    ► Species extinction is 1000 times faster than normal.
    ► Ocean acidification to double by 2050, triple by 2100.

    We kill 90 elephants every single day of the year. Elephants have devised a very specific warning call for their herds that means, “Humans are coming!” We kill 2-3 rhinos each and every day because the keratin in their horns is worth $20,000.00 per pound, after it is ground up into powder to be snorted up the noses of people in the nightclubs of Asia.

    The LARGEST mass extinction event was the Permian event of 250 million years ago where 95% of all life on land and sea disappeared thanks to the hydrogen sulfide gas emissions from over-acidified oceans. We are acidifying our oceans faster than that event.

    The FASTEST mass extinction event occurred 65 million years ago when the asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs. It still took as long as 33,000 years later to finish them off, long after the initial impact damage. We are on track to wipe out 75% of species on earth within 300 years, and probably much sooner. This is 100 times faster than the asteroid impact.

    Ecological cascading extinction collapse is irreversible and unstoppable once it has started. This will lead to an ecological planetary state shift devoid of basic ecological services we take for granted, like breathing and eating. No one knows when the ultimate final tipping point will be passed, until after we pass it. Some say in 30-40 years.

    I read something not too long ago that said steel reinforced concrete won’t last very much longer than a couple hundred years if it is not patched, water proofed and well maintained. If water gets in contact with the steel, it will rust and the surrounding concrete will crumble. You only have to look at the Gardiner Expressway to see that this is true. It caused me to imagine that long after our condos and bank towers have fallen down, that the pyramids and maybe even the Roman Coliseum will remain standing, outlasting maybe even ourselves. There are no magic bullets and no easy answers. But, not to worry! The mass media has a louder voice than me, and with endless repetition, it won’t be long until you forget what I’m telling you, because you want to forget, and that’s just human nature. Human Nature + 9 Billion People = Mass Extinction.

    The Antidote
    Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He’s not breathing and his eyes are still, so his friend calls 911. “My friend is dead! What should I do?” The operator replies, “Calm down, sir. I can help. First make sure that he’s dead.” There’s a silence, then a loud bang. Back on the phone, the guy says, “Ok, now what?”

  • Thanks for the tune RE, from the last thread. I had not heard that song before. I don’t know why, it was excellently written and performed. Probably fell flat in the media due to content and the times.

    I enjoyed the take on ‘treason’. It reminded me of one of my favorite quotes, “The opposite of courage is not cowardice, the opposite of courage is conformity.”

  • @KH

    Phil Ochs was the most famous Protest Singer of the 1960s after Bob Dylan. He wrote a ton of songs covered by other folkies you will probably remember. Here’s Joan Baez singing “There But for Fortune”, a Phil song. It was covered by Maryanne Faithfull also. I like that version best, but can’t find it.


  • Here’s Phil singing it himself.

    Phil committed Suicide in 1973.


  • here y’go…

  • This was an amusing read, thanks!

    Robert Callaghan, the Darwinian theory of evolution is about the only hypothesis that can explain the grandiosity of biological nature and has vast amounts of strong evidence in favour of it, right down to the molecular/atomic level. You can even observe it in action for yourself in microbial lifeforms (for sure) and other “more complex” organisms as well. Regarding twins, there’s very little correlation either way when it comes to complex behaviourial traits because the environment is changed significantly and the system is sensitive to small perturbations, much like the climate system itself (though physiologically the response is very very similar, just like siblings and parents; the further away the genetics the greater the physiological distance). In one breath you doubt evolution and then say nature’s way of ensuring survival. What is the latter if not a significant portion of evolution (natural selection). You’re willing to ascribe an extremely complex behavioural phenomenon, that two offspring are likely to possess different characteristics to benefit the survival of at least one (so they can do what, exactly?), which is the textbook characterisation of natural selection, yet unwilling to believe that the same criteria is used by nature to effect how you see and hear. But you’re right that variations in a population up to a point is advantageous for survival, otherwise the population will run into bottlenecks (look what happened to the cheetah).

    Every biological creature is a combination of nature (genetics) and nurture (environment). It’s not one or the other. It’s both working in concert, and like I said, both of these are complex systems (sensitive to small perturbations). No two kids, not even twins, can be raised the same way unless they were raised in a parallel universe.

    And there have been astronomical numbers of cells being created and selected for/against over cosmological timescales to make what we see today happen. It’s not that hard to imagine if you’ve ever observed an organism grow from a single cell (think about it, a single tiny cell with a tractable number of atoms) to something comprising billions, trillions, and zillions of cells. But that’s what happened to make you, you. Witness it starting with a microscope (for a frog or a pig) and you can “see” some of the magic yourself. You could perhaps even take a zygote (the fertilised egg) and do some “twin studies” yourself with dogs.

  • Thanks JH. That one used to be on You Tube, not there anymore far as I can tell.


  • @ Robert Callaghan and, erm, all my very good friends here..

    Why Things Are Way Worse Than You Can Even Imagine…Well over 5 million people were killed in the Congo for the conflict minerals we need for our smart phones to work, just so we can text, post and write the blogs we love to read…Food supplies are already at risk going forward…

    Robert, you missed out so much stuff, like loss of topsoil, rising sea levels and salination, Fukes, toxic chemicals in our food, I could many add more, you really need to do your homework, mate ;-)

    And that last antidote, do you think that’s funny ? I think that should be taken seriously as a market opportunity for the Diner, RE take note.
    Obviously the way forward through the bottleneck.

    “I went to the hotel early this year, after eating, I was told that a lump of meat was being sold at N700, I was surprised,” a pastor who had visited the eatery said.
    “So I did not know it was human meat that I ate at such expensive price.

  • Robert Callaghan, the Darwinian theory of evolution is about the only hypothesis that can explain the grandiosity of biological nature and has vast amounts of strong evidence in favour of it, right down to the molecular/atomic level.

    Effit – there are folks who will see the world in the way they prefer. Let them be. Some of them have been on NBL at various times since its earliest days. I steered clear of one of them on that matter, although commenting to clarify points to others. There are plenty of them lurking in the bush: an occasional one can be expected to stray into NBL.

  • The trees are not dead. They are birches that are bare during winter.

  • Guy and all,

    After a day of consciously trying to experience the simple joy found in simply taking care of myself, I ended today watching your talk with Jenna at Peak Moment.

    Fifty Males Sitting Together

    After a long walk in the woods clear cut for lumber,
    lit up by a few young pines,
    I turn home,
    drawn to water. ……….

    How far he is from other men when he is 40. From all men!
    The males singing
    chant far out
    on the water, grounded in downward shadow.
    He cannot go there because
    he has not grieved
    as humans grieve. If someone died
    who’s head was cut off?
    The mother’s? The father’s? Or his?
    Dark comes down slowly, the way
    snow falls, or herds pass a cave mouth.
    I look up at the other shore; it is night.
    Robert Bly

    Earlier this afternoon, I had been surfing the internet for a gift for my three-year old great niece, Jayda, who will be welcoming a new baby brother in June. I thought the doctor’s smock with some fake doctor instruments might be fun for her, but I found myself suddenly in the midst of inner feelings of grief arising, and I put the project away to avoid any more tears.

    I, like so many others on this blog have looked on in puzzlement into the eyes of friends and neighbors as they bring up their reserve forces from within when I suggest things are not quite what they appear to be. I can almost see in my mind’s eye an actual physical turning away as they look away in their mind for a familiar horizon that is no longer there.

    “Nasrudeen and his followers were in the town square one day and a group of children were becoming unruly and irritating. Nasrudeen exclaimed, “Hey kids, they are giving away free candy at the castle!” “Yea, they cried out and began to run excitedly down the road to the castle. Nasrudeen picked up the hem of his robe and began to run after them. His followers said to him, “ But Mullah, what are you doing? You just made that up!” Nasrudeen replied, “Yea, but you can never tell!”

    If we are mirroring, I asked myself, what is it that I am seeing in me with all this verbal denial, what am I running from if what I see in them disturbs me enough to get all upset. Today, I realized that my expectation is that if they understood NTE, somehow I would be safer than I felt, perhaps that old ghost of childhood abandonment passing through once again. Nevertheless, in the name of my personal defense, I tried. And of course failed, but by embracing this particular failure, I can turn my doing toward something else altogether different, and in letting them be, perhaps that something could be something I have never contemplated before. Rumi offers:

    “……. When you chose wine
    you choose something clear and firm.
    And when you choose dessert
    You choose something rich and nourishing.

    What is the rest?

    The rest is all blurry pictures
    The rest is water mixed with milk (a way to cheat in his time)
    The rest is all self-hatred
    and mocking other people
    and destruction.

    So, just sit down and be quiet.
    The reason is, you are drunk
    and this is the edge of the roof.”

    I have found through experience that when it comes to anguish of the human situation, self-pity is a workable defense for awhile, laughter can serve to temporarily release some of the tension that builds in the face of my true feelings, but crying, at this stage of my development, ends up being the most true expression.

    “Nasrudeen was sitting one day in his home when his neighbor came by and called out to him, “Hey, Nasrudeen, did you steal my donkey?” Nasrudeen replied, “Of course not, I would never do such a thing!” Just then, a donkey’s baying was heard from the rear of the house and the neighbor looked over the fence to see it was his donkey. “But Nasrudeen, I thought you said you didn’t steal my donkey.” Nasrudeen replied, “Well, who are you going to believe, me or the donkey.”

    I have been watching Jenna with admiration for years since my own Peak Oil awareness, maybe 2009. Not to single her out here, but as I watched her at the end, it felt like I was also watching an elephant, proud, maybe a mother, shot by a poacher’s bullet, slowly succumb to the shock and sink down onto one knee. Not finished, but also unable to defend herself at that particular moment in time, familiar defenses pierced and feeling the grief of that in a physical way. I, too, have had to take a knee many times myself in the last couple of years, literally and figuratively, but this was the first time I saw someone else at the very moment of impact of what the dots, when connected, were actually picturing: The deep, unavoidable anguish of previously unacknowledged powerlessness. As you suggested, the anguish is not for the loss of one’s person, not even for humans, but for, well, everything. I admit I may be wrong about what I thought I saw in Jenna, but the tides of conceiving can have the effect of deeper and ever deeper levels of awareness.

    Ocean Shadows
    It is the pain of longing that burns within me today.

    Fire that smolders within the cold embrace of my demand from others
    to provide me with the father-love I never felt.

    A fire that does not warm me
    in the silence of this familiar thirst
    waiting only for my father.

    As I sit on the shore of the inner ocean of separate unity
    he comes and sits down beside me.

    We listen together to the same breath as it comes in
    the sound of each wave receding back into the vastness of the sea.

    As we breathe out together, we hear the creation of the waves
    emerging into separation out of the void onto the shore.

    The pain of my father’s life pours out to me
    as I listen to him tell the story of his life to me.

    Sitting comfortably within this shadow of self-pity,
    his tears are my tears and as we sit together,
    my separation melts into the freedom of compassionate unity.

    No longer angrily seeking the approval from the collective
    for what they, too, cannot offer me.

    This dance at the ocean shore
    always here to remind me of the
    silent healing that lives within the water of men.

    Three and a-half years ago, while waiting for news from my sister of her son’s first child, I found myself contemplating my own personal story and that of my mother’s who had died a few years ago at 93. As I looked into her eyes, I had asked her if she knew she was dying. She could have asked me the same question. It is possible to die. And it seems to me now that our stories cannot not be separated from the larger one, and to do so would constitute a mis-reading of not only our stories, but those who have come before us. To ignore their lives would be an injustice to them and their effort. The daily coming and going takes us away from this wider prospective that whereas, does not pay the bills, can serve to enrichen one’s life, just as much as art, financial success, a close relationship or a peaceful day.

    The harder I tried to make my story unique or separate, the more it seemed the same as everyone else’s. However, without the stories of the past, and now of the future, I find it difficult to just create meaning out of seemingly nothing. The stories of the past, like a movie that is over into a world where the future is seemingly being eaten up as we stare.

    As I stood in the ruts left by the old wagon trains just east of Boise, the dry, stark landscape of the high mountain plateau between two distant mountain ranges evoked an emptiness like I had never felt. After such a long journey from St. Louis, the long trip west from the Tetons of Wyoming to the respite of the Boise River Canyon became too much for many, couldn’t take anymore desolation, and committed suicide.

    But what of the spiritual oppression they grew up with by the Catholic Church? The imaginary bully who dogged every one of their steps through life, terrified in childhood by the nonsense of damnation, an unexamined, toxic fear eating away at their spirit. The effects of alcoholism in family members almost seems to fade away like St. Louis when faced with the reality of the effects on a person on such a long journey through life in this kind of desolate landscape.

    Expecting Jayda
    I sense the presence of wildness when I see
    an Idaho river flowing without dams
    wild horses out on the range
    young children at play.

    If there is no answer to our question
    is that a problem?

    It is by demanding answers to its own questions
    that the human mind is corralled.

    And as we evolve,
    the bit goes in just a little easier
    for each generation.

    Original silence runs freely today
    flows through the canyon
    runs over the high steppes of the plateau
    animates the bodies of our little ones
    with no need to even ask questions.

    Achan Chah tells a story of a Thai monk who was found by his students one day crying at the bedside of his dead son. They asked: “Roshi, why are you crying? You teach us that everything is an illusion.” “Yes, he replied, I teach everything is an illusion and the death of a child is the greatest of these illusions.”

    Guy, thanks for mentioning your work with John James and Russell Friedman. I have been working with their book and, it seems, there are always deeper levels of awareness that one can touch, the place where words do not reach. Perhaps we are being called now not to bring light into the world, but to learn to see in the dark.

  • AMERIKAN HOLOGRAM went Triple Digits on the 1st Day!  :icon_sunny:   Plus 5 downloads so far too!!!



  • @a different old hippie

    Thank you. Perhaps Salix – (willow species) appear in the image of the woman and her dog sled which are of course deciduous.

    For all you budding pomologists (pun intended) out there. Now is a good time to prune your fruit trees while the trees are still dormant for those living in USDA plant hardiness zone 6 and below. Pruning references abound on the interweb.

    It’s been a cold winter and early spring. The maple sugar season will probably be poor this year.

    Started assorted cultivars of tomatoes from seed yesterday. Lettuce cultivars and red cabbage as well. Into the plant-o-matic they go. More vegetable seed propagation today reckon.

  • Thanks, RE. Your focus on the everyday world is weirdly comforting.

  • Captcha monsta got my last post — I’m about to give up “writing” for this, and just post quickies where the code hasn’t expired while I was “thinking”

    Great film: What a Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire (2007)

    I’m catching up on my Derrick Jensen, and Lierre. Whacking myself in head for how long I was so asleep… oh well. Discovering Guy is like showing up at the party late (“I thought it was at 5, not 2!”) and finding they’ve still saved some cake/booze/presents for you…

    And thanks, RE for your excellent rants (Smedley!!!) and for your Alaska reminders of a very special place, I need to return for a 3rd trip.

  • Has RE ever posted anything here, that isn’t intellectually headed in the opposite direction of Guy’s “We’re done”?

    And isn’t virtually everything he post here, just a different days regurgitation of information, which most of us are long familiar, but no longer have any use for?

    So how does his contribution benefit the discussion of NTE in anyway when he is clearly missing the most critical aspect of NBL, other than just serving as a useless distraction?

    Even F. Kling’s alien obsession is more relevant.

  • In stark contrast to the cavalier and dismissive attitude of some commenters, the following hypothesis demonstrates that the animal mutilation phenomenon is a far more serious and deadly business than anyone may have imagined. Let the cock-sure ignore the evidence at their own foolish peril.


    A Review of the Evidence

    At this point it would be worthwhile reiterating a number of consistent facts relating to the mutilation phenomenon. They are:
    1. For the past five decades horses, sheep, goats, and a variety of other domesticated animals, as well as a wide range of wildlife and even aquatic creatures have been found mutilated throughout the world.
    2. These mutilations have been carried out in a premeditated fashion with great efficiency and precision.
    3. One of the most common characteristics of these mutilations is the complete absence of blood in and around the dead carcasses.
    4. A common mutilation pattern in cattle and sheep consists of: (1) a jaw swipe whereby all muscle and tissue are removed down to the bone usually on one side of the jaw, (2) the removal of one or both eyes and ears, (3) excision of the tongue deep at its root, (4) removal of internal and external genitalia, and (5) removal of digestive and other soft internal organs through small circular orifices cut through the flesh.
    5. Circular or tear shaped orifices to the inner viscera show a laser-like cauterization on their borders leaving what resembles small “cookie cutter” like serrations.
    6. Other reported mutilations include decapitation, bifurcation of the torso with all internal organs removed, small portals bored through the skull from which the brains have been removed, and in the case of seal and porpoises, deep corkscrew lacerations running along the entire length of their bodies.

    The Prion Hypothesis by Richard Bonenfant, Ph.D.

    It’s now time to address the question of why these activities are being carried out in the first place. Why are domesticated and various wild animals being so horrifically mutilated? The problem is that we simply don’t know.

    In an attempt to answer this question, the organs most commonly missing from mutilated cattle namely; the blood, eye, ear, tongue, jaw tissue, brain, testis, ovaries, as well as the digestive, pulmonary and circulatory organs were compared to organs used to test for various known toxins and teratogens. This is a long, complex and time consuming endeavor which even at this time remains incomplete. However, something of great interest was discovered. The organs taken from mutilated animals are very similar if not identical to soft tissue used to detect the presence of “prions” in various mammals.

    What are prions? According to Ananya Mandal, MD at (

    “A prion is a small infectious particle composed of abnormally folded protein that causes progressive neurodegenerative conditions. These mis-folded proteins do not multiply in the host organism that they infect. Instead they affect the brain structure by acting as a template, inducing proteins with normal folding to convert to the abnormal prion form.”
    “These newly formed mis-folded proteins, in turn, act as further templates for the conversion of more normal proteins. There is therefore an exponential accumulation of the prions in the tissue of the central nervous system.”

    “Mad Cow Disease” or Creutzfeldt – Jakob Disease and Alzheimer’s Disease

    So prions are unevenly folded proteins that have debilitating long term effects on the brain tissue of organisms that ingest them. They have been associated with “Mad Cow Disease” in bovines and Creutzfeldt – Jakob Disease in humans. In 2009 an unexpected link was discovered between infectious prions and Alzheimer’s Disease. [14] Since it is estimated that Alzheimer’s disease affects more than 20 million people worldwide, the significance of this link is of great importance to the population at large.

    Coincidently, our awareness of prions also dates back to the early 60s, just prior to the first reported mutilation of Lady. Aliens with presumably a far more advanced technology must surely be aware of the existence of prions and their potential implications for humankind’s health. However, except for health officials and those who define and regulate health policies, very little is known by the public of the implications of prion related diseases. So it’s entirely possible that aliens where somehow aware of a sudden rise the background rate of prions.

    The first notable consequence of Mad Cow Disease or specifically bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) occurred in Great Britain back in 1986 and peaked between 1992 and 1993. At that time sampling indicated that only three of every 1,000 cows were infected, however, the epidemiological and financial considerations of the disease were considerable. In response to rapidly growing health consequences to the general population, British health authorities destroyed millions of cattle. [15]

    Despite these drastic measures the European Union and a number of other countries banned the import of British beef. Then in May 1995 the first recorded human death linked to Mad Cow Disease occurred in England. His name was Stephen Churchill, he was 19 years of age, and died from an illness that looked like Creutzfeldt – Jakob disease (CJD), a disease that usually strikes those over 55. Later two other similar deaths were recorded in Britain that year. When scientists examined the brains of these patients, they found unusual spongiform symptoms.

    Force-feeding Vegetarian Grazers Diseased Animal Brains

    In May 2003, Canadian health officials reported their first case of Mad Cow Disease. By then it was readily evident that tainted meat had been eaten by humans. It is now recognized that cattle [vegetarians] get the disease from eating commercial feed that includes bone and brain from other animals including other bovines. Grazers, such as cattle, horses, sheep and a number of other domestic animals have recently been provided with feed that contains the ground-up parts of other animals in order to increase their protein intake. In turn this feed carries with it the risk of spreading the disease to humans who consume meat and dairy products from these animals.
    While the primary method of prion infection in animals is through ingestion, current research suggests that prions are be also deposited in the environment through urine, saliva, feces and other body fluids. Even the remains of affected dead animals buried in the soil may harbor prions that linger by binding to clay and other minerals in the surrounding area. [16]

    Stanley Prusiner, a Nobel Prize Laureate at the University of California, has recently uncovered evidence to suggest that manure rich cattle fields, as well as watering holes in these fields, could hasten to spread prion related diseases. Furthermore, any water reservoirs frequented by cattle could also spread prion diseases through irrigation of nearby fields and by leakage into subterranean reservoirs. [17]

    To make matters even worse prions are nearly indestructible. One study found that even exposing prions to temperatures of 134 °C (274 °F) for 18 minutes in a pressurized steam autoclave was not enough to destroy active prions. [18] Consequently, even the incineration of contaminated livestock may not be enough to eradicate the prions within their bodies.

    Once an animal is infected with some form of prion disease, the incubation period is relatively long (5 to 20 years) depending on the species. However, “once symptoms appear the disease progresses rapidly, leading to brain damage and death. Neurodegenerative symptoms can include convulsions, dementia, ataxia (balance and coordination dysfunction), and behavioural or personality changes.” [19] However, all known prion diseases, collectively called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs), are at present untreatable and fatal.

    TSE’s: A Valid Hypothesis

    If we accept the implication that TSEs are a serious and growing menace to an ever growing global population, it is likely this knowledge is understood by aliens as well. The Prion Hypothesis suggests that aliens are mutilating cattle in order to monitor the spread of prion related diseases in animal life throughout the world. If this hypothesis holds true, we may soon be learning that sea creatures like seals and dolphins throughout have also been found to be contaminated with TSEs.

    This Hypothesis has a corollary. Given the potential threat of prion related TSEs to the world’s human population, various scenarios and their consequences must already have been carefully reviewed by high ranking authorities. If so, the presence of dark, unmarked helicopters near mutilation sites could signify that covert government agencies are actively involved in similar prion monitoring. Perhaps it is even possible that such agencies are taking clues as to the possible spread of TSEs by following up on alien mutilation activity.

    Assuming that aliens are indeed real and that they are in fact already interacting with humanity; it seems entirely possible that animal mutilations are their means of monitoring our demise as well as that of a wide range of other life forms.


    Evidence confirming the existence of unexplainable animal mutilations is ubiquitous and robust. Conventional explanations have failed to account for their global prevalence, the methodological precision of the mutilations, and of a lack of blood and missing organs uncovered during necropsies. This situation is exacerbated by a notable lack of urgency shown by national governments toward the assaults. What remains is circumstantial evidence that the mutilations are extraterrestrial in origin. Though unorthodox, this hypothesis remains the most viable explanation for the cause of these events.

    While we remain unsure of the reason why mutilations are taking place, there is compelling evidence to suggest they are UFO related. Conventional explanations such as natural predation, human intervention in the form of satanic cults or black ops programs have all failed to account for the bizarre nature of reported findings. All the while, reports of UFO activity at mutilations sites persist around the world.

    Assuming the alien hypothesis is correct, it would be reasonable to assume that animal mutilations served a purpose in the alien agenda. The Prion Hypothesis suggests that they are monitoring the slow spread of prion related diseases throughout the world; an event with severe implications not only for humans but also for the entire planetary food chain. It would certainly imply a biological degradation that has been ongoing for the past several decades.

    The Prion Hypothesis advances a number of serious considerations.

    (1) Aliens are in fact here and the cause of animal mutilations.
    (2) Aliens are actively monitoring the spread of prion related diseases throughout the globe.
    (3) Knowledge of the seriousness of these diseases are known to national authorities and they are intentionally hindering any investigation of the mutilation phenomenon for reasons of containment.
    (4) There is a link between UFO activity and the presence of dark, unmarked helicopters at mutilation sites.

    To dismiss this Hypothesis because of its unorthodox nature would be ill advised. It contains testable inferences which could help resolve the animal mutilation phenomenon. What really matters is not whether the Hypothesis is correct or not. What’s important is that the entire matter be seriously investigated by the best means possible and that resulting findings be freely disseminated.

    It is imperative at this juncture that individuals of conscience do their utmost to accurately report events taking place around us, even if these events are not congruent with our current concepts of reality. Something is going on that cannot be explained. We know that it’s real despite declarations to the contrary by many respected authorities. All we can do is remain faithful to what we see, hear, and experience without being influenced by the disfavor of those who continually challenge our integrity.

    Footnotes: Available upon request.

  • Hey Henry!

    After losing some of my best writings to the Captcha Monster, I now ALWAYS highlight, right click and hit copy before I hit “Submit Comment’.

  • “And isn’t virtually everything he post here, just a different days regurgitation of information, which most of us are long familiar, but no longer have any use for?”-D

    Well obviously if you buy NTHE is a certainty, there is no use for any information at all since everybody will be dead no matter what the information is.

    “So how does his contribution benefit the discussion of NTE in anyway when he is clearly missing the most critical aspect of NBL, other than just serving as a useless distraction?”

    Why don’t you ask Guy? He’s the one publishing my articles.


  • @D
    Lighten up. There’s room enough in this tent for all of us. I enjoy RE’s posts and comments along with just about everyone else’s here. As I have for the past six years. And RE’s rants of the day over at the Doomstead Diner are funny, entertaining and spot on. It’s good to get a little diversity of opinions and viewpoints. The arguments between RE, Ulvfugl and others have been top-notch and entertaining. From what I know of our host I suspect Guy would have encouraged and enjoyed such interactions within his classes. That he allows it to go on here at this site ought to tell you something.

  • Went to a strip center near home (walking), to buy some food and another products that are needed to keep running a modern house.
    Along the way there, (about 200 mts away), I cannot avoid to look at the people driving their cars, SUV´s (lots of them), and some typical big American pick-up trucks.
    Then, I see a lot of cars in the parking lot of the store, that come and go. The parking lot is almost full.
    A few meters away, an important avenue, full of more cars, plus many trucks carrying all sorts of cargo.
    Inside the store, people, a lot of people, living the life of business as usual. Buying the food for tomorrow´s lunch, a cake for tea time, an energetic beverage, some meat, fresh fruits, or just some bread. Everything brought by a lot of trucks, from distant places.
    After paying what I bought, a boy, from a pack of hundreds of plastic bags, takes a couple of them, without wondering where are this plastic bags going to end, and as he does hundreds of times per day, try to put my products inside a couple of them. But, as I always carry in my pockets my own reused plastic bags, I give him mines, and his bags go back to the storage place, waiting for the next client. I am one of the very few that reuses the disposable plastic bags. Most people just take new ones every time they buy something. Without any remorse..
    Along the way back, in what used to be an empty space, a 14 story building is being built. In a rather short time, the main structure is almost ready. A few windows in the lower stories can be seen. I see the plastic sheet that protects them, and think, more plastic to be thrown away somewhere ( at nigh), it is cheaper that paying the municipal truck. The truck with the concrete mix is pumping some to the upper stories, using without any care, diesel oil. Probably the driver has no idea that something like peak oil is already happening.
    I wonder, once the building is ready, the building company will have to look the way to build another one, somewhere, and then another and another. Infinite growth, a need.

    A small picture of the business as usual world.
    Taken in my country, near home, but an image we see all around the world, cloned millions of times, everyday.
    I wonder to myself, how is possible that most of this people cannot see the disaster we are heading? What are they going to do once the moment comes? They are not prepared in any way. I can imagine only the worst.
    In my head, the conflict of the need to leave this place, and at the same time, the difficult task of dealing with some links that cannot be broken so easily.
    Awareness is a heavy load to carry.

  • @ogardener Willows in Alaska are shrubby. However, they and birches (135 different species in the state) occupy much of the same terrain. The bushes at the base of the Tesoro sign are typical of salix found in Alaska.

  • “RE’s rants of the day over at the Doomstead Diner are funny, entertaining and spot on.”-JS

    Thanks JS!  Can I use the Testimonial in my Advertizing? 


    Tonight’s Installment of the Frostbite Falls Daily Rant is titled Myths of Energy Independence. Coming to a Laptop Near You around 10PM AK Time.

    My best one yet if I say so myself, and I do. lol.


  • Guy publishing your rants, only speaks to the obvious absence of those with the emotional and intellectual capacity to fully comprehend the unprecedence of NTE. He’s got to fill this space with something. You’re at least enough in the ballpark to merit consideration, I guess, though you do nothing to actually add to the discussion, and sadly only serve to keep this space in an endless but familiar state of futile contention.

    What you seem emotionally incapable of grasping, is that no one here wants to believe NTE is highly probable, nor certain. You are blinded by the threat NTE is to your own survivalist vested interests, and because you clearly still have something to sell. But no one is buying your claptrap other than those like Stasseck who are only looking to be “entertained” by yet another privileged clown who clearly has way too much time on his hands in expressing his particular compulsive disorder.

    So survivalist salesman is your fastidious coping mechanism, Yeehaw! There are thousands of RE’s in the world, Alaska is full of them. But for some reason you still see fit to preach in any forum that will have you, and where you obviously get a rise by likening yourself as some “minority voice” on probably the most outlying blog on the web (NBL), though you only continue to reiterate news most here have long considered irrelevant to current circumstances.

    So what are we to make of HE who thinks he is challenging us with his special brand of hopeful antiquated thinking? I guess just clap our hands like parents at a children’s play, because our inner child was once reciting the same words…….not all that long ago. Bravo!

  • @ Friedrich Kling

    I find the Alien stuff fascinating. Here is an interesting take on Aliens, Prions, Microwave Radars, and Crop Circles.

    They were letting you know your radars are causing prion disease

    Oddly enough, my initials are TSE. LOL.

    @RE – You overrate your rants. Don’t get too big a head.

  • The deep, unavoidable anguish of previously unacknowledged powerlessness.

    All phenomena within space – time – causation are subject to the “laws” of the physical universe. In this sense, there is a strait-jacketed powerlessness. Rational anticipation of the results of action, without associated expectations is the way to acknowledgement of the powerlessness and the realisation that the domain in which operates does not encompass awareness.

    the anguish is not for the loss of one’s person, not even for humans, but for, well, everything.

    The perceived loss starts with the division of the “not-I” into “mine” and “not-mine”. Its sine qua non is the perception of an “I” as a real entity: without that entity the “not-I” disappears.

    It is by demanding answers to its own questions that the human mind is corralled.

    Finite questions bring knowledge through finite answers. For questions that cannot be so answered, there is not knowledge, but realisation: with realisation the question itself falls away as a tree may shed leaves in in the fall. Such realisation is not “attained” or “achieved”, just as water does not “attain” or achieve” wetness.

    You teach us that everything is an illusion.

    There are different orders of illusion, and within each order, the things belonging to that order are quite real. Dream-stuff is real within a dream. Movie-stuff in a movie is real within the movie. Yet an illusion can have real effects: a rope in dim light misperceived as a snake might result in a heart attack. The first and foremost of all illusions is the illusion of a separate individual self, the “I”.

    So how does his contribution benefit the discussion of NTE in anyway when he is clearly missing the most critical aspect of NBL, other than just serving as a useless distraction?

    Even F. Kling’s alien obsession is more relevant.

    But let’s remember that Herr RE and his cohort rescued the NBL site to expand their broadcast range by claiming to have the allegiance of the NTE-doomsayers. It is to be noted that they do not know or prefer to ignore the difference between doomers and doomsayers.

    As has been pointed out, the underlying motivation is marketing their stuff. Which is perfectly fine, as long as one heeds the admonition: caveat emptor!

  • D says: “Guy publishing your rants…”

    That was amazing!

  • Hi Tim E.-

    Thank you for your comments. I looked at the article you provided, but I am having trouble locating the connection between radar and TSE. How do the crop circles shown communicate that radar is responsible for generating prions? I am intrigued, but I don’t see the linkage. Perhaps you would be good enough to clarify this.

  • Robin Datta, I’m relatively new to NBL and the NBL forums, so it may take me a while to get the lay of the land. However, what prompted my comment was related to the inconsistency of using evolutionary arguments (i.e., no siblings being the same as having been naturally selected for better survivability) and then denying its power.

    D, I think RE’s posts, can be very entertaining. Humour to make certain points already known can be quite effective and useful. Particularly this one which I’ve passed around a bit already: “what’s wrong with this picture” and then a picture of sledders on dry land, and then the response “no fucking snow! that’s what’s wrong!” and then going on about how it must be harder to pull these sleds over dry land instead of several feet of snow, etc.

    As far as protein folding (prions are basically misfolded proteins capable of effecting other neighbouring proteins which has to do a portion of the protein folding problem), I’ve published over a 100 peer-reviewed original research papers on the protein folding problem (directly or directly, though by “folding” I mean anything related to computational prediction of protein folds, or protein structures, at the atomic level which only sometimes refers to the verb of folding); see – in fact, my postdoctoral mentor, Michael Levitt, won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 2013 for being among the first to do it computationally and we’ve published some seminar work in this field together (see my papers with him in my CV).

    I don’t think we’ve interacted with aliens yet and I’m fascinated that someone would link protein folding to alien monitoring of human and animal health. If a sufficiently powerful technological alien race interacted with us, they’d not need to use prions to monitor our health and it would be highly ineffective and inefficient when they could use the entire proteome and monitor the folding of ALL proteins (which is the kind of research we’re doing, along with interactions between proteins, nucleic acids, and small molecules – computational modelling of interactomes at the atomic level). That would be far more indicative of health than just prions.


  • Warning — and Denial — perfect example (“living on the slope of the volcano”)

    @ Kirk — yes, I usually copy via Ctrl-C, so it’s available if lost, but sometimes I just hurry too much :( Or type in a separate document editor, to drop in here, as I’m doing now. (I also found a difference if I Tab into the “Submit” box first.)

    @ RE & D: We’re not here to regurgitate orthodoxy. (Personal attacks, much, D?) From my own viewpoint, that is, a 5% possibility of “some other outcome”, RE fills in that space most eloquently, and delivers a “wisdom” cache of activist experience within a combative attitude. I welcome that. Takes all kinds, including you. We’ll survive. ;)

    Me, I’m just embarrassed, as I said before, when I watch such as Tim Bennett’s video linked above (2007), or Derrick or Lierre, at just how LONG ago some people got it, and were mostly (still are) waiting for the rest of us to catch up.

    I just spent a few minutes looking for the series of articles — by a pseudonymous Canadian woman activist, name forgotten — describing how far back — late 80s? 90s certainly — goes the oil companies’ quests to tap methane hydrates, once they heard the earliest mentions of their release and profit potential. Sheesh! Planet on suicide watch, maybe? (Actually, if Rosneft could throw a big methane-catching TENT over Siberia…. PLEASE!??)

    And yet, I’m hearing about all this first in mid-2012, via Guy and AMEG and it’s all like new to me. No wonder it takes a lot to sort out the emotions, or to get others onboard. But I think we’re the first (or at least leading?) ones to take on the Extinction topic (Hey! Maybe should be spelled EXX-tincti-ON, (“We bring good things to an end”? No, that was GE) honoring the leading corporate oil sponsor?) , which is “a little about a lot”, or “Everything About Nothing”.

  • Time is the teacher. Eventually we all learn the ultimate lesson, however unpleasant… life ends in death. The lesson often begins with the loss of a loved one. The pain seeps into every cell and alters forever. The temporary nature of our lives, of our personal mortal circumstance, begins to change from a far off abstraction to a solidifying reality. The recognition that someday we will not be alive becomes more certain, more trustworthy and reliable than the frenetic transience of our daily day to day affairs and trivial distractions.

    When this advanced realization is applied to the abstract awareness of mass extinction, of our rapidly approaching extinction… the Earth begins to look and feel entirely different. Clearly beginning to visualize what it will be like someday soon, when all the structures built by humans — the roads, the cars and trucks, trains, boats, airplanes, gas pumps… are stilled forever. Fallen high rises. Collapsed bridges. Scattered shards of glass and ubiquitous toxic molecules. All smart phones deranged and silenced. Driveling TVs in waiting rooms rectified. No sound system pulsating on teenager’s lovers lanes. No road noise.

    Then, the days beyond that… as all human artifact splinters, corrodes, washes away to reenter the ground from which it all came… then, on a planet silenced of birds and foxes and elephants and monkeys and babies crying… there’ll only be lonely monotonous howling winds and crashing waves.

    Time is the teacher.

  • Something to do when you get bored by the comments on the Beach of Doom.

  • I was raised to give credit where credit was due, so RE, I liked that one. I appreciate the pictures from a different perspective than those awesome David Attenborough programs and the like.

  • “Guy publishing your rants, only speaks to the obvious absence of those with the emotional and intellectual capacity to fully comprehend the unprecedence of NTE. He’s got to fill this space with something.”-D

    You’re clairvoyant too? You got the absolute handle on Guy’s rationale for publishing my articles? I’m impressed. Guy no longer needs to write anything here, you can speak for him!

    “@RE – You overrate your rants. Don’t get too big a head.”-TE

    I’ll try to keep my Ego in check. :)

    However, this one is REALLY GOOD!


  • Also, don’t miss the latest Diner 1st Convocation Series being published as we speak on the Diner!

    Latest one is Part IV from Haniel, the Aspie Tech Wizard who Saved the Diner and Fixed NBL too!

    Fixes still in progress everywhere of course, never ending battle here against the Gremlins of the Internet.

    Diner Geeks will Prevail!


  • Bad news out of Australia (and coming to a country near you):

    Scientists resign ‘living dead’ species to extinction, call for triage debate

    The dramatic ongoing loss of Australian animal and plant species has prompted influential scientists to call on governments to start making tough decisions about which ones to save – and which species should be left to face extinction.

    The proposal to triage Australia’s unique species comes from some of the nation’s most senior conservation biologists.

    It is a radical and controversial shift from decades of hard-fought conservation victories aiming to preserve all species and wilderness.

    “I’m afraid to tell everybody we’re in a terminal situation. We’re confronting a whole raft of species about to go over the extinction cliff,” Professor David Bowman, an expert in environmental change biology at the University of Tasmania, said.

    Professor Corey Bradshaw, director of the Environment Institute’s Climate and Ecology Centre at The University of Adelaide, says Kakadu National Park has suffered a 95 per cent decline in mammals.

    “Kakadu National Park, our largest national park, is basically a biodiversity basket case,” Professor Bradshaw said.

    “The Great Barrier Reef has been suffering biodiversity declines for decades. Now if we can’t get it right in our two biggest and most well-known and certainly the best-funded parks and protected areas in Australia, what hope have we for the rest of our national parks?”

    [read the rest, if you can handle it]

  • RE: This blog has NOT been fixed. Improved, yes, but it still suffers from problems as many of us have pointed out. If you want to see an example of a well-run blog, check out xraymike79’s Collapse of Industrial Civilization blog – it’s close to perfect. You can make multiple links in the same post, including videos and they appear momentarily, not after some “moderation” phase, where you don’t know if your comment is lost or just in limbo. Nobody comes back to tweak NBL despite all our complaints, so I guess the mediocre work that was done will have to suffice.

    Here’s a (about hr long) video from Robert Sheldrake you all might enjoy:

    Earth Talk: Science and Spiritual Practices – Dr Rupert Sheldrake

  • I’m curious, D,

    Other than finding fault in the opinions and writings of others, what have you brought to the table for discussion? What motivates you to be here? And why should I listen to you? Please enlighten me.

    I’ll be the first to admit my contributions to this discourse have been limited. I’ve always been a bit intimidated by the caliber of writing skills; the knowledge and experiences shared by many of you over the years. Yes, I have found this site to be entertaining at times. And humorous too. Can’t see anything wrong in that. I believe Guy once said if you’re looking for comic relief with this subject you’ll never run out of material. But above all I’ve learned and grown in my understanding of just where we are, why we’re here and what we are going to do about it.

    Guy’s writings, essays and presentations on this website and personal conversations with me have led the way, but there have been many other gifted writers here who’ve helped me on this journey. Dig through the archives for a treasure trove of insight and clarity. Folks like Double D, John Rember, Victor, the virgin terry, the Real Doctor House and Kathy C made a lasting and positive impression on my life. There was a good deal of give and take discussions and arguments. And a wide variety of outlooks and opinions. These arguments helped me work through my own questions and misgivings and helped me get through some tough times.

    NTE has changed the game. Now it appears you either believe in NTE with your whole heart and soul or are cast out as a heretic. I happen to believe that Guy is right. His take logically makes the most sense to me. Ulvfugl has done a masterful job of summarizing it over the past few years. Although he has very little patience in others and can be a jerk sometimes. But I like his honesty and passion. I cannot find a way out of this trap. But I don’t have a crystal ball, and I don’t believe anyone else does too. There is no way anyone can predict with certainty how the future is going to play out. Chaos does indeed work in mysterious ways. RE came along with his pompous, holier than thou attitude and ruffled some feathers. I don’t like his use of the word quitter. He doesn’t know us or know what we’ve been through. But he does make some sense to me. I see nothing wrong in his approach. Perhaps someday he will reciprocate that.

    Guy continues to tell us to find our passion. Our passion to do what we believe in. To find what it is that motivates us and pursue it. Hopefully that involves helping others along the way, both human and non. It appears to me that RE is doing just that. As is Ulvfugl. And as are all the rest of us. Okay?

  • @RE
    The main difference between my story of things and yours is that mine ends sooner. Maybe I’m wrong?

  • John Stassek, I have absented myself from these discussions as the NTE reality has made them increasingly pointless. So many here, you included have made quite a significant impact on my life. I am grateful to have found NBL, to have known likeminded folks and glad I know what is coming. But I am also much more peaceful not butting heads anymore. :) Extinction means peace (except for the thermopiles that may still vie for ascendency). The horrors end when creatures with central nervous systems are no longer around, for there will be no more pain, no more fear, no more horror.

  • Nice to see you here again, Kathy :-)

  • Well, that’s terrific, Obama speaks to Europe, and, um, nobody claps.. well, one person tried… they probably couldn’t understand English.

  • Thanks RE, for a good and entertaining post.
    Here’s the Beehive, an activist art collective working out of Maine on cutting edge issues:

  • Kathy,

    It is so good to hear your voice again!! Seems like a long time. Planted your garden yet? Up here in Michigan we still have snow and temps this morning were 9 above. Don’t think I’ll be getting the potatoes in by Good Friday. How are the chickens doing? I really hope you will drop in from time to time. Please stay in touch. We miss you!


    Do you still want to use me for a testimonial? 
    (I liked the latest rant, by the way)

  • John S,

    If you haven’t figured out the difference between “the entertainment value” of just being aware of the evidence leading to NTE, and the intellectual/emotional/spiritual dilemma of attempting to live with the acceptance of NTE, then………….well, you’re obviously not the only one.

    But here is a little secret: The narrative of NTE has primarily been defined by weighing the observable evidence against EVERYTHING WE’VE EVER BELIEVED up to this point. But as the phenomena continues to compile by the day, for some of us that narrative has already come to an end. The next daunting narrative of NTE, the one we can barely admit we’re interested in, actually begins at the end of Guy’s presentations and it doesn’t have anything to do with evidence at all. It can now, only be glimpsed in the hallowed faces or heard in the nervous and uneasy laughter surrounding his Q & A regarding what this really means to each and every one of us.

    But that next story is still like a deer in the woods, any miscue and that fledgling unprecedented acceptance finds the quickest familiar exit. With someone like RE in the room, full of prideful hyperbole and trite techo-hopium, it will never be seen, he serves only as that familiar if not comforting distraction. “We” (still waiting for the label “extinctionist” to arrive) must slowly, incrementally come to terms not with what others are saying, or concern ourselves with whom we should or shouldn’t be listening to anymore, but learn how to hear what we’re actually saying to ourselves. We’re already mouthing the words, we just don’t dare speak of such things. We may have turned our backs on civilization, but most of our cultural mores and taboos are still well entrenched. We like to think we’ve reached some kind of final acceptance with NTE, but we’re only at the beginning of learning how to live with it.

  • “@RE
    The main difference between my story of things and yours is that mine ends sooner. Maybe I’m wrong?”-mt

    As I remark quite often, this whole argument is about timelines, not outcome. Homo Sapiens and in fact all eukaryotic organisms go extinct inside around 300M years no matter what. Yellowstone will blow inside of 200K years, wiping out just about everything with maybe a few lucky survivors somewhere. At any time between now and any of those events we could run into a head on collision with a Planet Killer Asteroid. Nothing lives forever, except in UF’s disturbed logic. LOL.

    The hypothesis here is for a vastly accelerated timeline, extinction within about 30 years. While in theory possible, it’s not highly likely, there are too many means and ways for HS to survive even with a massive and rapid climate change. I’ve outlined a few of them here, more on the Diner.

    Now, the general reaction here to this is “I would rather be DEAD than live in a Concrete Dome”. However, I would venture the guess that most people offered the choice between instant death and growing food indoors hydroponically would make the latter choice.

    Will a LARGE portion of the population be able to survive through such means? Obviously not, but you don’t need a whole lot to survive the Zero Point to avoid extinction. In the case of Toba, globally only 10,000 Human Souls or 1000 Breeding Pairs survived that cataclysm, and the centuries it took for the earth to recover generally. From that original 1000, inside 75,000 years we populated the globe to the tune of 7B people. It ain’t OVAH till the Fat Lady Sings, aka those last 1000 go to the Great Beyond and HS is No More.

    Meanwhile, you can’t know precisely what occurs climate wise after a 99.999% Knockdown of human population and all industrialization and fossil fuel burning comes to a complete halt. Given all of these Known Unknowns and Unknown Unknowns, you can either choose to try and make a Stand or you can Quit.

    On the Diner, we make our Last Stand. Mileage varies here on NBL obviously.


  • @Tom
    Apply to customer service for a full refund.

  • @RE
    The thing is, RE, I think you actually believe your own crap. I’ve always admired folks that could do that.
    Me, not so much.


    Most of my days are spent researching this or that. However a couple of days each month, I’m quite, I must admit, the nihilist.
    This might be that. Or, that could be this. Moreover, it may all be nothing.
    Once one has reached his or her Heaven or Nirvana or whatever, then what? Besides maintain, I see nothing. I’m not conjuring up a linear existence here, a beginning, a middle and end. I’m not suggesting that one can achieve a “higher” state or that there even is one. I’m not about to tell anyone there is a comfortable spot.
    Every since I first read Plato’s Republic and the Allegory of the Cave story, I always wondered what the fellow could do once he climbed out of the cave and saw the light. I know he could go back and tell the others, but what else? What does one do out of the cave? Is there a cave?
    I have lived the Romantic fantasy of toughing it out in the wilderness. In the end, I died.
    I have lived in a beautiful commune, where we grew our own food, shared and had lots of sex. In the end, I died.
    Point is I always die.
    I have no desire to be the last man, or one of the last people.
    I do think that I make shit up.
    Hell, there’s a chance I’m not even writing this. You may not be reading it.
    I mean, ain’t you me and me you?
    I’m not sure about that.
    Even if we are them, and they are us,
    In the end
    I die.
    Maybe not.
    People have asked me, “Who do you think you are?”
    At different times, I have said different things. In deed, I am different at different times.
    Although, I am one thing almost all the time:
    I am a nihilist.
    I have been since I was four-years-old. After all, I killed the Tooth fairy, Santa and Jesus. I latter killed many more. Seems everyday I kill someone or something. Poof—GONE. I never tortured any of these fantasies. I didn’t starve them. I didn’t burn them. I didn’t drag out their death. It never even occurred to me to do that.
    This shit just can’t be real, whatever your version of “real” may be.
    What really gets me, is why have so many of us concluded with this horrific and devastating ending? If we had ANY say, that whole suffering would be avoided. We have NO say, that seems clear.

    One expected response might be, “We have to suffer to get to B”
    Well, what is B? Why can’t we get there without the suffering?
    Fuck all that. What is A?
    “Hey dude, since you believe everything is nothing, why don’t you kill yourself?”
    I’m curious and every now and then I do have fun even if it is imagined. Also, that whole euthanasia thing might do in time. For now I’ll just finish this soup.

    (I KNEW not to put that shit in my soup)

    FINAL THOUGHT: Let’s all pretend we’re really smart and we are not in this dire mess.

  • Wow, Kathy C. has made an appearance.

    I agree, it’s all pointless.

    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  • @RE
    yes we DO know, the nuclear plants all go Fukushima – try to live through that.

  • Kathy C says: “Extinction means peace (except for the thermopiles that may still vie for ascendency). The horrors end when creatures with central nervous systems are no longer around, for there will be no more pain, no more fear, no more horror.”

    We Had A Dream

    Our dream of justice has passed:
    Life means oppression by caste;
    But soon now, instead,
    We’ll be equally dead—
    Thank God, we’ll be free at last.

  • pat says: “Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window.”

    Ball And Chain

    Sitting here watching the rain,
    I stare from this runaway train:
    Doom came to be,
    Grabbed a hold of me,
    And it felt like a ball and chain.

    H/T: Janis

  • “The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.”-P

    You First.


  • “@RE
    The thing is, RE, I think you actually believe your own crap. I’ve always admired folks that could do that.”-mt

    It’s a gift. :)


  • Wren,

    Your art collective link was a big surprise. Although I don’t know what to make of it, it helps if I break it down some.

    Restoring the Grange: Good
    Pulling past, future, culture, ecology together: Good (worth a try, anyway)
    Cooperating/volunteering: Good

    Does anyone get paid?

    It would be nice to know how (or whether) notions of NTE figure into the collective. I prefer to start out from there. Thanks very much for this most unexpected information. And if that work makes people happy, wonderful!

  • The following post will probably surprise some folks. I prefer to avoid harsh attacks. I don’t like fighting, a personality trait which isn’t contradictory to my martial arts background. I received a request to write about this by a good friend and sponsor. That combined with the fact that once in a while someone rubs me the wrong way… and once my mind gets rolling… Anyway, all aboard and hang on tight, ’cause this train is moving fast.

    @ RE
    I’ve been thinking about why so many folks here find your hyper optimistic rants so cloyingly annoying. It’s simple. You advocate Denialism. Viz: you flatly refuse to comprehend and acknowledge any of the core conundrums that have been explained here – a behavior which I imagine reminds these folks of right wing Tea Party dead weight irritants, self-serving Libertarian hypocrites and other temporarily advantaged, extremely delusional people who live behind barriers of willful black out shade fantasies. People who just luv that there cool science stuff – when it gives them what they want.

    That’s how you come off to me anyway. A rebel against basic observation and logic who then brashly pushes an illusory agenda based on nothing but fleeting wishes. Driving objections into the soft underbelly of ‘scientific uncertainty’. No inconvenient observation is ever certain enough for hard core proponents of denialism. You guys push it all the way to the grave. Your methodology follows the ruts of those tired old strategies of the tobacco industry – inserting wedges of doubt and blowing confusing smoke screens, infinitely reflecting your own imaginations in an artificial hall of mirrors. It’s all insanely insulated from reality.

    You seem to have actually convinced yourself that it will be possible for human beings to survive in a habitat which will be unsuitable for human life, or you deny that’s coming, or both – or, you’re just spouting the dam company line. You seem to actually believe that all we need is just a little more of the mindset of techno religiosity that got us into this mess in the first place, or you deny its done it, or both – or, you’re just spouting the dam company line. You seem to actually believe that you can put out a raging fire if you just add enough gasoline, or you haven’t tried it yet, or both – or, you’re just spouting the dam company line.

    I guess you have your reasons to continue to tout your junk. Maybe you fear the fear. Maybe you’re reassuring yourself publicly. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re more macho than that. Therefor I suspect you’re being well remunerated to do these dirty deeds of obfuscation, and, in fact, you do know the truth, but just figure on maximizing your own joy ride for a while. And that would be despicable.

    I somewhat enjoyed the vicarious travel, as a bit of forbidden naughty indulgence. But it was too sweet for me. I didn’t see much correlation with the intellectual scope of this blog. Next time leave out the aspartame.

    Oh, by the way, while I don’t like to play cop… I’ve received private correspondence from another reader of this blog who asked me to remind you of the two post a day rule, which you have continued to violate. Three posts on the 24th and four on the 25th. It sure looks like you think you’re a pretty special dude. But you’d probably modestly deny that too.

  • Hi Artleads,

    I posted the Beehive Collective link because this is what art should be doing here and now on the downward slope- addressing issues such as gmo’s, monarch extinction, and the betrayal of the natural world by industrialized civilization. And they do it with such an emotional quality of line… The way the composition holds its own on a large scale as well as on the almost molecular level is a miracle considering that this is a group effort.

    I posted it because they have, at this late date, managed to divorce art from money, and I find that admirable and yet indescribably sad.
    Although they do not overtly address NTE, I feel it in their work as a subliminal undercurrent.

    There are many ways of dealing with NTE, losing one’s self in the production of art is one of my personal favorites.

  • @ John Stassek — you summarized our communications here very well (hi KathyC!) , and

    @ D — you answered his (and my) challenge very well. We are embedded in our comforts. I’m moved by the “What a Way to Go” documentary video (from 2007) that I got through 2 hours of today (a lot to handle at once, and great summary of our situation — way beyond Al Gore for its time — we really just repeat a lot of it here, but that’s only natural, I suppose) and I noticed that all the interviewees are sitting in their homes upon nice couches with wall decorations and bookshelves in the background, and I could go out and tarp over my treehouse in the rainy dark right now and see just how much I like returning to hunter-gatherer level, sans electricity, and you summed up so well our reactions with “still like a deer in the woods, any miscue and that fledgling unprecedented acceptance finds the quickest familiar exit” and “We may have turned our backs on civilization, but most of our cultural mores and taboos are still well entrenched” and “we’re only at the beginning of learning how to live with it”. So true. I expect to still have my comforts, or escape to someplace where I can enjoy most of them a bit longer than others, that sense of entitlement. Well said.

    @ mt — Brilliant! I will be alert to read you from here onward.

    @ Benjamin — thanks for Janis. I plugged in the mike and joined in with her; I can do a pretty good riff, with her smiling down. However, I think she actually joined in the time I did “Summertime” while out logging 40 years ago, standing on a stump in a frozen river (20 below), forgetting my frostbitten toes and holding up a log chink like a slice of watermelon.

    Saw Mama Cass watching her; we’ve been acquainted with Death all our lives, just very remote and theoretical. Hard to tell if NTE awareness is running a race in parallel with our own mortalities — acceptance? or avoidance? I go back and forth (as D highlights above — there’s enough Denial to go around)

  • The First Diner Convocation V by Surly now UP on the Diner Blog!

    What brings a person to the Diner?

    The pending convocation will be the first IRL (in real, as opposed to virtual, life) meeting of many of the people behind the thoughts, opinions and concepts that have informed discussion on the Diner blog and Forum over the last two years. Even though I will not be in attendance, it seems good to reflect now on the assortment of dead canaries that have littered the entrance to the mine shaft of modern life, and that have caused us to gather in this place.

    From every vector comes the dawning realization that we are well and truly fucked. Some people have seen this coming for years, even decades; others are beginning to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Most people received a good, cold water jolt five years ago during the first financial crisis, and Lehman  cratered with all of the sulfur, brimstone, and completeness of my NCAA bracket. The resulting bailout of the too big to fail banks over the bristling objections of many mere voters (a craven act even then evident as the guarantee of the owners’ casino losses by the commons) wrote yet another chapter in the book of reasons to not trust the federal government (and also gave a shot of adrenaline into the regressive right with the birth of the libertarian “tea party” movement, further deforming an already fractured system of governance.)…

    Read the rest on the Doomstead Diner!


  • Btd: double-shot of pithy wisdom – well done, sir!

    Apneaman: good-one, but i’m not lookin’ for a refund, just for the site to work correctly or better regarding comments. I guess that’s too much to ask.

    Earthquake watch:

    3/26/2014 — Volcanic Earthquakes — Yellowstone and California — Animals giving warning?

    Over the past 48 hours, a noticeable increase in seismic activity has occurred across the Western United States.

    Specifically, a swarm of earthquakes has occurred extending from the Western edge of the Yellowstone magma chamber, now Eastward into the center of the National Park itself.

    This building pressure is now manifesting as multiple 3.0M+ earthquakes, all at a 3.0mile or greater depth inside the Yellowstone magma chamber.

    As if Yellowstone were not enough, the pressure is also translating to earthquakes occurring farther Southwest from Yellowstone, along the deformed edge of the North American Craton, extending into Central California , along the subduction zone of the North American Plate (and the Pacific Plate).

    [further down, interesting video of bison running away from Yellowstone]

    In other news from the region, last week, reports of odd Bison (buffalo) movements exiting the park..

    Were the animals trying to tell us something?

  • I thought you and the IT team were here to stop spam? {just not your spam}

    RE says: “The First Diner Convocation V by Surly now UP on the Diner Blog!”

    Bob S. says: Why would folks from NBL want to read someone like Surly who spends his time insulting them?

    From Surly :- “FWIW, I just went over and looked at the NBL Forum. If the main page is a sewer of negativity, the Forum is the effluent lagoon. Now I have to go hose the Lidia and Grant off my shoes, not to mention uflgufl.”


    Or from the resident toughie who likes to talk about bull-whipping folks who don’t think like him :-

    “Those fuckers are tapped in the head… I should go over to that site and fuckin’ disrupt their depressing fatalist circle jerk. I would, but I don’t have the time or energy to get caught up in their stupid shit. They really should just all drink the NTHE koolade and be done with it. I mean if they all believe that we’re going extinct in 5 years then why would they want to stick around and wait for that excruciating misery?”

    “.line those pansy ass limp noodle entitled boomer ass munchers up, in a line, the NTHE crowd actually, and I’ll teach them a lesson in honor, dignity, and hope.”


    And this guy who figures he’ll join in the disrespect even though he cant think of anything coherent to say:-

    “They are too gutless to try and all tout it as some sort of triumph attaining true peace? wtf do they intend to tell their hungry family when they are so open to experience borne of acceptance of futility.”


    RE thinks we’re a vile and evil suicide cult. :-

    “Indeed in their own way, these folks are as vile as Smokey and A-hole on TBP.

    It is alas my Destiny in Life on the Internet to go out and Do Battle with the Forces of Evil.”

    “When you have somebody on the site like Pat who perpetually tags his posts with the “Church of Euthanasia”, “Kill Yourself to Save the Planet”, and basically NOBODY on the site takes this Tag line to task (including Guy), you DEFINITELY have Heaven’s Gate Territory in play here.

    Far as stamina goes, as you well know from the TBP days, I got a LOT of it. I will go down the road with these folks as long as it takes, long as Guy does not pull a Jimbo and start messing with my posting, and I don’t think he will do that.”


    And from the IT guru who gave us our “forum” – the REAL truth behind the “forum”.

    “The forum will drive anyone with an ounce of positive thoughts away (from NBL), and hopefully over to here (Doomstead Diner).”


    Yup – the Diner IT team sure did rescue us. Seems the Diner has been reduced to smack talking NBL, dreaming of cement domes, and bull-whipping non-believers.

  • I thought the Diner IT team came to rid us of spam? (just not Diner spam, huh).

    RE says: “The First Diner Convocation V by Surly now UP on the Diner Blog!”

    Bob S. says: Why would folks from NBL want to read someone like Surly who spends his time insulting them?

    Surly says- “FWIW, I just went over and looked at the NBL Forum. If the main page is a sewer of negativity, the Forum is the effluent lagoon. Now I have to go hose the Lidia and Grant off my shoes, not to mention uflgufl.”


    Or from the resident toughie who likes to talk about bullwhipping folks who don’t think like him :-

    “Those fuckers are tapped in the head… I should go over to that site and fuckin’ disrupt their depressing fatalist circle jerk. I would, but I don’t have the time or energy to get caught up in their stupid shit. They really should just all drink the NTHE koolade and be done with it. I mean if they all believe that we’re going extinct in 5 years then why would they want to stick around and wait for that excruciating misery?”

    “.line those pansy ass limp noodle entitled boomer ass munchers up, in a line, the NTHE crowd actually, and I’ll teach them a lesson in honor, dignity, and hope.”


    This fellow figures he’ll join in the disrespect even though he cant think of anything coherent to say:-

    “They are too gutless to try and all tout it as some sort of triumph attaining true peace? wtf do they intend to tell their hungry family when they are so open to experience borne of acceptance of futility.”


    RE thinks we’re a vile and evil suicide cult. :-

    “Indeed in their own way, these folks are as vile as Smokey and A-hole on TBP.

    It is alas my Destiny in Life on the Internet to go out and Do Battle with the Forces of Evil.”

    “When you have somebody on the site like Pat who perpetually tags his posts with the “Church of Euthanasia”, “Kill Yourself to Save the Planet”, and basically NOBODY on the site takes this Tag line to task (including Guy), you DEFINITELY have Heaven’s Gate Territory in play here.

    Far as stamina goes, as you well know from the TBP days, I got a LOT of it. I will go down the road with these folks as long as it takes, long as Guy does not pull a Jimbo and start messing with my posting, and I don’t think he will do that.”


    And from the IT guru who gave us our “forum” – the REAL truth behind the “forum”.

    “The forum will drive anyone with an ounce of positive thoughts away (from NBL), and hopefully over to here (Doomstead Diner).”


    Seems the Diner has been reduced to smack talking NBL and dreaming of cement domes to save humanity. They fly from Alaska to Mexico to get their cavities filled, then have the nerve to use the sig – Save as Many as You Can.

    Dont step in any wet cement guys.

  • I’ve posted a guest essay, courtesy of a first-time writer in this space. It’s here.

  • @ Bob S.

    I will go down the road with these folks as long as it takes..

    Thanks for all that, Bob.

    You can tell RE is not a quitter. You give him a short piece of rope, he’ll keep working with it, as long as it takes, eventually he’ll get it looped and knotted into a noose, and then he’ll hang himself with it. He’s one very smart determined dude, knows how to string himself up by the neck, all by himself.

    We don’t need to assist him, we can stand and watch in amazement :-)

  • John Stassek….what part of Michigan? I’m in the lower southwest pennisula, as they say. Watching snow flakes come down, along with freezing rain, at the moment. Lovely state. Love our mad dog governor.

    I went to the Diner a couple of times, but just couldn’t take the bad writing and hopium. Read something by mama gypsy about having twins that was so poorly written I deleted the site from my bookmarks and haven’t been back. They ignore the little things like two many fucking people on the planet and other realities, and write like children, in love with their own specialness. I think the emotional IQ over there is about toddler range.

  • Bob S. – “Why would folks from NBL want to read someone like Surly who spends his time insulting them?”

    to play both finite and infinite games requires

    – a playing field
    – rules
    – a worthy opponent

    the goal for a finite player is to win, the goal for an infinite player is to keep playing (check the original source finite and infinite games – haven’t read it in a very long time… )

    where I think things get interesting is to realize that there are

    – infinite varieties for each of the three requirements
    – the ability to play multiple games simultaneously
    – the ability to spectate on multiple games simultaneously

    these three things are going on all the time, with all of us, though we are more or less conscious of where we are and what we are doing. we are constantly experimenting with new varieties of games, and trying infinite variations on games we already know. we are doing this in many ways at once, and watching many other players and outcomes, all at once.

    we are all playing. that is the one thing that is not optional. I find it incredibly enriching to analyze games and players, and player skill levels.

    “living a life of excellence” is just another variation, with infinite possibilities. it does require, I believe, some level of becoming more conscious about the games – both in perfecting skill, and increasing range.

    knowing more about the “who, what and why” behind the games is yet another game.

  • D,
    Last night, after reading your well-written and thoughtful reply, I took a good long look at myself. And reread Daniel Drumright’s epic essay. You’re right. I have not yet crossed over to accept all that NTE entails. I still carry the secret hope that somehow, someway, my children will be spared. As a school bus drive I include my 63 kids on the bus within that group. I understand, intellectually but I may never emotionally be able to come to terms until forced by future circumstances. My words directed at you did not take this into account and I apologize. Thank you, and thank you Bob S. for helping me to see things more clearly.

    Wildwoman- I also live in Southwestern Lower Michigan, near South Haven. Maybe we can meet up sometime.

  • one other thing about games – players are everywhere – the more you invite new players, and acknowledge their participation, the more players can join in your game. endlessly amazing, and probably what I have come to love the most.

  • Wren

    “Although they do not overtly address NTE, I feel it in their work as a subliminal undercurrent.”

    Nine years working on a project! They certainly think big. I agree. There are many way to deal with NTE.

  • Actually, UF and Lidia are the best recruiters the Diner has ever had. Every time they hammer somebody who won’t drink the NTHE Kool-Aid in one of their Group Think Purification tirades, the refugees head for the Diner. LOL.

    Far as the quotes BS pulled off the Diner, that’s barely scratching the surface. Uncle Bob the Professional Group Shrink and the rest of the Amateur Sigmund Freuds on the Diner are STILL going in the 22 After thread over there psychoanalyzing NBL Batter motivations. :)


  • They ignore the little things like two too many fucking people on the planet-WW

    Fixed that for you.

    If you are going to complain about the quality of the writing on the Diner, it would be a good idea to learn to SPELL first.  LOL.

    Insofar as being emotionally juvenile is concerned, I see you went to the UF School of Childish Metaphors.  This nonsense got old the 5th time he used it, and it is getting no fresher off your keyboard.  Find some new Napalm at least if you lack the intellectual capacity to discuss the issues themselves.


  • @ RE

    Find some new Napalm at least if you lack the intellectual capacity to discuss the issues themselves.

    Well, that is an outstanding remark, from someone who has not yet managed to grasp what the word PROOF means, isn’t it.

    As I said, totally philosophically illiterate.

    There was a time when I thought that you were a serious individual with an adult attitude towards life and our global predicament.

    As time has passed, we’ve come to see that you are just another two-faced egomaniac Christian nutjob who wants to save us from our selves for the Lord, which is really a ploy so that RE gets more power and publicity for himself, which is all rather shabby and disappointing.

    As for the folk you hang out with and that you keep touting as being so incredibly smart, the small sampling of the comments that I’ve read left me with the impression that I’ve met more highly evolved Crustaceans.

    I’m not surprised that you come over here all the time to get some fresh air and inspiration and escape from that horrible place. Masses of electric lights, acres of cracked concrete, and nobody is EVER going to quit. It’s like one of the levels in Dante. Sort of mediocre soggy do-nut hell that never ends.

    @ mo flow


  • “As time has passed, we’ve come to see that you are just another two-faced egomaniac Christian nutjob who wants to save us from our selves for the Lord”-UF

    Now THAT is hilarious. You have the reading comprehension skills of a dyslexic amoeba. I’m not a Christian first off, and second I am well known for my Fundy Bashing, a regular feature on our Spirituality & Mysticism Board.

    Pretty hard to take you seriously as a Philosopher when you can’t even read for comprehension.


  • @ RE

    I don’t care how you take me, RE. Why would I ?

    You fit the evangelical format perfectly, pushing your product, over here to rescue us, saving our souls from the satanic Mcpherson death cult.

    What I see is someone who can’t face the reality, so you escape into your techno-fantasy of squeezing through the bottleneck by growing fucking aquaponic tomatoes in a dome, muttering to yourself that its better than quitting like those skeletons outside the window.

    Pathetic really.

  • Obviously, some people cannot be Saved. You can only Save As Many As You Can. So far about a half dozen Refugees from NBL have arrived at the Diner, this is decent Missionary Work. :)

    Insofar as Death Cults go, between Carolyn Baker’s Hospice story, Mark Thoma’s 22 After and Duncan’s recent feature Red Coral, in the words of Hunter S. Thompson, Res Ipsa Loquitor.


  • @ RE

    So all you have to do, is get from here, now, to some point a few million years into the future, and then you, those 6 and all the rest, can cheer and congratulate yourselves, that your strategy was a success, and you weren’t quitters.

    Fucking brilliant.

    How many thousand dollars do they have to invest to get a ticket ? I forget.

  • No FRNs necessary. Most Diners are Broke People. Only necessary is a refusal to QUIT and Buy Your Own Ticket to the Great Beyond.


  • @ RE

    No, but you hope if you net enough minnows there might be a salmon somewhere, eh.

    Trouble is, having to listen to the egocentric, anthropocentric RE rants is more than I could stand.

    You just cannot engage in reasoned discussion. For example, take the recent exchange regarding the word PROOF. You never understood the point, did you.

    Now the same thing happens. When I say again that you are philosophically illiterate, your response is that I am claiming to be a philosopher.

    I mean, this is madness, on your part. A scrambled brain, that cannot think straight.

    If I say you are politically illiterate, that makes ME a politician ?

    If I say YOU don’t understand fishing, that makes ME a fucking FISH ?

    You are not a person worth debating with. All that crap about how so many people survived Toba is just your fantasy, because you want to remain in denial. It’s no different to all the other people who are in denial, it’s just a slightly more wacky take, that’s all.

    You don’t want to quit, fine, don’t quit. Why would anyone care whether you quit or not ? You’re playing out some childish movie script from your boyhood, here in public for all the world to laugh at. It’s a bit sad and embarrassing, imo.

  • Now that was a completely incoherent rant on your part UF.

    MY POV is that outcomes are not certain, and as long as they are not certain you do the best you can to negotiate the downspin.

    It is fairly obvious there will be a large population knockdown here, not so obvious is that EVERYBODY will be DEAD inside 30 years.

    So I look at the next 30 years and say to myself, “how might you best negotiate this shitstorm?”

    I certainly cannot guarantee survival for anybody, it’s a pretty nasty scenario no matter how you cut it. Extinction over such a short timeline though? Not very likely.

    I do not see the point in not TRYING to survive though. Even if you fail, it seems a worthwhile thing to do, particularly if you have some kids you care about.


  • @ RE

    Now that was a completely incoherent rant on your part

    Am I surprised that you claim not to understand what you do not want to understand ? No.

    Not very likely.

    Says RE, waving his arm in the air.

    I prefer to study the science and make an informed assessment, guided by the trends. Probably the best science-based projection is Kevin Anderson’s because he’s an engineer, trained to build bridges and that sort of thing, and work out exactly what sort of risk there will be that they might fall down in such and such a time, given certain stresses, weather conditions, maintenance schedules, and so forth.

    That’s been his professional training. Also, he’s slightly outside of the mainstream, and speaks his mind. So, I’m inclined to listen to his judgement and give it some weight.

    He’s not so strong on the biology and ecology, but then we have Guy for that, and I’ve studied ecology a lot myself.

    In my personal analysis, I don’t believe that there is any way to avoid a mass extinction event. Seems to me we are on the ‘worst case’ trajectory, and accelerating.

    Whether there will be 50 million people left in 2040, or 50 or 60 or whatever, so, technically, it’s not total extinction… I mean, this is angels on pinheads stuff. I have better things to do with my time.

    However, imo, the earlier that Industrial Civilisation collapses, the more chance that there will be some percentage of species left to carry on. But there are the Fukes, as we know, and ongoing acidification and temperature increase and climate chaos for an indefinite period ahead.

    We all know that there is a spread of viewpoints regarding the future.

    Albert Bates plots it. It’s a bit silly, but it does provide a visual gauge of how folks are positioned, Mcpherson bottom centre.

  • Hi ulvfugl. :)

    I think RE’s vision would possibly appealed to me when I was 12. however, when I was 12, the real wild world was much more alive. I had an intense resonance with the pure wild then, and I almost certainly would not have holed up in a dome somewhere, but simply walked into the woods, and tested my wilderness survival skills, using them for as long as possible – maybe a week? but it would have been worth a shot. maybe then raiding some nearby uninhabited summer cabins…

    I still resonate intensely with the wild pulse, but I can tell the volume is distinctly lower. the truth of NTE is that it is going to get lower and lower for a long time.

    RE – Toba was one particular event. the world was completely clean, when a whole bunch of volcanic ash was suddenly dumped everywhere, and volcanic gasses and dust were floating around in the atmosphere for a relatively short time, during the middle of a glacial period.

    and still humans almost got knocked all the way back to extinction. so incredibly close, and our ancestors only had some really thick dust to contend with for a while. that was it – just dust and ash – very common, very natural stuff.

    even though far larger than anything we’ve seen, the Toba ejecta was naturally washed out of the atmosphere – and the vast majority of it was probably gone within 10 to 20 years, max. this intense, but relatively brief, period of climate change, however, was still enough to take us within a tiny sliver of total extinction.

    now – we have

    – biological madness that the human machine has unleashed, such as totally resistant microbes in rapidly multiplying numbers. that madness isn’t over – we haven’t learned (surprise!) and are probably going to push the bugs into finding ever new levels of total resistance to whatever last ditch efforts the machine tries to cook up. how is that concrete dome going to protect you from at least a couple dozen different completely lethal bugs that we have so cleverly engineered in the “total earth” laboratory? are you going to have billions of dollars to throw at the problem? I know – desktop science will allow us to engineer new drugs! surely, that will work – again. 3D bio-printers. sound about right?

    – an earth ecosystem that is swimming in who knows how many bizarre chemicals and who knows how much intense radiation and radioactive isotopes, for thousands upon thousands of years. how much strontium-90 was involved in the Toba eruption? Oh yeah, exactly none. That is one of the wonderful IndCiv byproducts, out of millions, that the dome survivors get to contend with.

    – now, opposed to short-lived Toba ejecta, the new IndCiv CO2, and CO2 that is the breakdown product from methane reactions, and CO2 that is going into ocean acidification – all of this is going to be there for much much longer. where this is likely going now – after all feedbacks have unfolded – is at least hundreds of thousands to many millions of years longer duration than anything Toba gave us!

    this will take the human species extremely far from where it has ever been at any point in its history, in very short order, and then keep going and going, for a long, incredibly long time after that. if we barely survived Toba, within our completely natural environment where our biology already had every possible advantage it could possibly have, what are our chances of surviving something so vastly more extreme, so unnaturally twisted, and so much longer lasting?


    zero was coming for us sooner or later, and everything we have done with IndCiv is going to make it sooner. much sooner. 2050 or 2150 or 2250 is totally irrelevant. a much greater human population does not give us greater chances of surviving – quite the opposite. it simply provides a vastly larger scale of destructive potential for running sooner to the end of the end game. we had a greater chance with Toba precisely because there were far (very far) fewer of us ready and willing to burn the planet down, and eat every last morsel, in a the last desperate blind struggle.

    concrete domes, intensive permaculture, scavenging, cannibalism, burning down the last tree standing – I am sure these will all be great and fascinating adventures to whomever is interested, and I welcome those who are interested in pursuing such experiences to have at it. there is value in all kinds experience.

    my personal choice, knowing that my cherished wild earth world is going to be going through some really weird, really unpleasant death throws for a very long time is simply to play my games on a different playing field for a while. I don’t have to play your game RE, when I know there are many other ones to choose from, far more interesting to me than playing chess in a stinking dome hole for a few years or decades. and no, I don’t have to tell my kids anything, because I didn’t have any.

    I quit even having a passing interest in the “dome game” years ago, and everything that has unfolded since has shown me ever more clearly how such survivalist thinking is so deeply embedded in the punchline of our current cosmic joke.

  • This is why Obama is so incredibly popular in Europe.

    Quite apart from the fucking NSA reading everyone’s emails and listening to their phonecalls and watching them through the cameras on their computers and US GVt telling lies to the whole world about everything

    His minions have ousted the democratically elected government of Ukraine (okay, they were horrible, but aren’t most of ’em ? they were ELECTED) and installed these people, who are NOT elected, who are exactly the same as the people who supported Adolf Hitler.

    Ordinary Europeans are supposed not to have noticed ?

    After many millions of people died in two terrible wars, a few reckless insane American maniacs now risk starting another one ?

    Videos from Ukraine that MSM will never show you

    And now that Putin has blocked the madness in Ukraine, it’s back to Syria and starting more mayhem in Turkey.

    Always the same people, the CIA, Israel, Washington, causing endless grief and suffering and death and war crimes.

  • “Whether there will be 50 million people left in 2040, or 50 or 60 or whatever, so, technically, it’s not total extinction… I mean, this is angels on pinheads stuff. I have better things to do with my time.”-UF

    There is a BIG difference between 50M left and ZERO left. It’s the difference between Something and Nothing, between Lights On and Lights OFF for Sentience, between another day where some homo sapiens ponders the stars and the day no more do. Someday that light flickers out for sure, my point is that it is highly unlikely to come by 2050, so NTHE is likely an incorrect hypothesis. Something like MTHE, extinction in a century is much more plausible.

    Anyhow, if you just think about this as personally Living or Dying Sooner or Later, most people would rather die later than sooner, even though everyone knows they will die eventually. So you do what you can to delay the inevitable, because most people value living above dying.

    So the objective here is to keep living as long as you can as an individual, and in aggregate as long as you can as a species.

    In any event, I doubt I will be alive regardless in 2050, nor will you, so we won’t be around here for me to say I told you so when there are still 50M Human Souls ambling about the planet, or you to say I told you so when there are none.


  • @Tom
    Dr. Sheldrake video was interesting but a little too much emphasis on religion I thought.

    I did enjoy the discussion about inter-species telepathic communication, as I have experienced this often with animals in my life. It is especially noticeable when I merge my physical “heart space” with that of the animal. This is fairly easy with cats, as they often will want to fall asleep on your chest especially if you are napping. But just sitting or leaning back in a recliner for example and holding the cat against the chest works also. It is during this time that I know their thoughts, or their feelings, and they probably know mine.

    It has even worked with goats, but they move around so quickly, that it is not as predictable as with cats we have had.
    Am sure many others who have “owned” animals have experienced this and more.

  • oh good – my other post finally got through. for a while I was wondering if Guy had a new policy where my posts must get approval from an NSA field office on Alpha Centauri. looks like the field office is actually somewhere in the vicinity of Neptune – thank god!

    what it all boils down to – we have set ourselves a trap within a trap within a… at least a dozen layers deep. sure, a clever mouse like RE could, maybe, escape from the first trap, and perhaps the second, but…

    survivalist thinking is old thinking – essentially no different than what got us here, and in many ways that thinking lives at the very core of the causes of our predicament.

    ulvfugl – it is good to see you, and what you have been up to here. I have to say, although not having time to read the whole “Stories” thread yet, what I did catch of biosemiotics as I was skimming through had a very interesting effect on me.

    it just hit me in the gut, this morning, with cold certainty – our science could have been so much different. there are probably a zillion ways to do science, and we chose so badly – well, however much choice could have been involved, when fighting against so much that is hardwired into the human animal.

    I am certain, though, that different biological consciousness out there has chosen more wisely than us. there is so much room for variation that something, probably many somethings, made it far past where we did. millions or billions of years further.

    in a similar fashion to what almost all notions of what “god” or “spirit” is like, the human animal cannot get past their overriding need to project their own thoughts, feelings and behavior patterns onto what these other intelligences might be like, and what their motivations could be.

    are they looking for prions? sending us warning messages? or are they doing something completely beyond our comprehension?

    my vote is for the latter. I refuse to make the same old tired mistake of projecting anything that I “know” – and anything that remotely resembles anything to do with human thinking or behavior – onto what these other beings may be doing. I certainly believe something is going on there, something real.

    again, that reality is just another confirmation for me – we totally blew it. and no, I do not believe there is anything at all special about the human animal worth saving, or even rooting for. no more special than any of the other animals we are responsible for taking down already, and all the additional ones that we will still take into oblivion as this unfolds.

    it is not that humans “deserve” extinction – that kind of thinking is just more projection. it is just the natural unfolding of things. the human animal is not special. we have proven that. the special stuff that we are comes from elsewhere – that is all we will have to work with, in some fashion or other.

  • what a bunch of drivel
    this site is really going downhill

    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  • The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.-P

    You First.


  • “a clever mouse like RE could, maybe, escape from the first trap, and perhaps the second”-mf

    Nobody gets out alive. You live as long as you can escape the traps. I work on escape plans every night. I’m good at least 9 traps deep here. LOL


  • ilinda: thanks. Yeah, he comes from a Christian background, so you have to take his talk (sermon?) with a bit of salt (ie. what he’s saying regarding universal consciousness and “resonance” could still hold without the Christian perspective).

    mo flow: yeah, I’ve been a “doomer” for a long time (most of my life) and have come to the same conclusions – there’s nowhere to run and no place to hide from what we’ve triggered. Enjoy your days and live your code.

  • RE – as annoying as your DD plugs can be, I do love your sense of humor. keep it alive until the end!

    Tom – yes, I’ve had the feeling that something was seriously off track, pretty much since I was able to look around and think. many times in earlier days I felt a very strong urge just to walk into the woods, and keep walking. I hope we can all help each other enjoy our days, living in excellence, love, and humor – as long as possible. I deeply appreciate the way Guy encourages this, right along with his intensely clear headed way of looking at things.

  • Thanks MF.

    In my take on this, “Only Jokes Remain”. :)


  • Just sittin’ on this runaway train, staring out the window.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.