Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue and Another Clip from Reese Jones

Off the keyboard, camera and microphone of RE

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Published on the Doomstead Diner on July 10, 2014


Discuss this article at the Podcast Table inside the Diner

Bonus Podcast: Guy McPherson on Religion, Morality and the Progress Meme

SAMSUNG CAMERA PICTURESA few weeks ago right after I got the new Electric Wheelz, I took them on their first major Test Drive in the Colony Days Parade held every year in Palmer. Along with the July 4th Parade in Wasilla and the Alaska State Fair Parade when it opens in August, these are the 3 main Parades held in the Mat-Su Valley during the Summer.

Parades are a traditional Celebration of Victory of one sort or another, beginning of course with Military Victories, but extending to Sports Victories too of course, every time the Mets or Yankees win a World Series, they of course get a Ticker Tape parade down Wall Street, despite the fact nobody uses stock tickers anymore with paper tape output, the Piglets view all the latest HFT Data on their Bloomberg Terminals these days.

What Parades here in the FSoA have evolved into is mostly a Celebration of the Consumer Culture, and every local bizness gets a Float to advertize their biz as they march down the parade route, passing out Candy to all the kiddies long the route. Along with the Biz Floats though, there always are Political Floats for various Candidates for local political office, Boy Scout Troops, and invariably also a group from the local VFW with a Support Our Troops float.

In this parade, our Biz happened to be marching directly behind such a VFW SOT group, who while they didn’t have a float, did sport a dude in a Polar Bear costume, a Disabled Vet of probably the Vietnam War era, and an Amplified Music System playing non-stop “Patriotic” Music. Cruising behind them, I got a couple of Vids with the “Scooter Cam”. 🙂

The tune on the Loop which got to me the most was a Toby Keith “country music” type song I had never heard before, “Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue”. The lyrics are an unabashed glorification of militarism, a complete propaganda piece selling the idea that we send out our soldiers only after being attacked for our “Freedoms” (cough, spit, PUKE), but man if you do attack us, we will light you up like Vietnam on a Summer’s Day in 1969.

Now this nation that I love
Has fallen under attack
A sucker punch came flyin’
From somewhere in the back
As soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man we lit up your world
Like the fourth of July.

And Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist
And the Eagle will fly, and it’s gonna to be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell
And it’ll feel like the whole wide world’s raining down on you.
Brought to you courtesy of the red, white, and blue.

Here’s the Full Official Music Video of this tune, for those of you who like me may have never heard it before:

Gotta love the Cheering Soldiers and Patriots attending Toby’s concerts here, shaking their fists at all the appropriate moments.

This sort of War Propaganda Patriotic Music has a long history, you could go at least as far back as the Battle Hymn of the Republic to get a stomach full of this shit.

My particular favorite in this genre is Johnny Horton, who died pretty young back in 1960 but had huge popularity with his Amerikana Songs, Sink the Bismark being one of my favorites of this type.

What you will find if you go over and view this on You Tube is that the Ads that come at the beginning are all basically RECRUITMENT ads for joining the Military. These songs get those Patriotic Juices Flowing, be a HERO, defend our FREEDOMS! A complete crock of shit of course, none of these wars were ever about fighting for Freedom, all were about fighting for control over global resources.

What the Face of War really looks like is none so glorious as any of this propaganda makes it out to be. These days though, besides the stuff you can pull down from Social Media sites and the Iphones of various locals being Bombed Back to the Stone Age by our Glorious War Machine, you don’t see any of the gruesome outcomes of war, unless it is our Propaganda machine trying to demonize the other side by showing the outcome of the latest “Terrorist” bombing. Who’s the bigger terrorist here, the guy with a few sticks of Dynamite strapped to his chest, or the Drone Pilot delivering Death From Above with Cruise Missiles with explosive power in the kiloton range, and that is just the non-nuke stuff!

When we saw the horror during the Vietnam War era, it helped mobilize an anti-war movement, so nowadays you don’t get to see such things anymore. That was the Past. Now we do “Surgical” strikes with little collateral damage. More total bullshit of course. It STILL looks like this!

You don’t think so? Here’s a pic from a few days ago of an Israeli Air Strike on the Gaza Strip:

War is not about Freedom for anybody, EVER. War is always about CONTROL, not Freedom. If you are on the “winning” side in a War, whatever freedom YOU got out of it came at the expense of Freedom LOST by some dead guy on the other side.

The whole pathetic nonsense of this kind of War Glorification inspired a Rant I recorded right after the Colony Days Parade, but it has been in the cooler for a while here as a whole lot of other stuff has been going on, and I haven’t had time to put together all the vids and so forth to work up an article until now.


…Our Biz was marching right behind a Support Our Soldier Group playing non-stop Johnny Horton type Freedom and Democracy songs, and not only that sporting a WWII era Veteran in a Wheelchair as well. Still not sure how parading the maimed victims of War works to help perpetuate it, but in just about every parade of any type, even a parade celebrating a Mets Victory in the World Series you get your Veterans marching, or being wheeled in display along the parade route.

How long will these Parades continue onward here, celebrating Victories that are in truth DEFEATS? Over in Iraq, the great Victory of Desert Storm 1 & 2 has devolved into further Civil War there, nothing was won other than to keep Oil flowing out of Iraq a few years longer, so Happy Motoring could continue on here. How long will it take the parade marchers and parade spectators to actually see the TRUTH, that Industrial Civilization is collapsing right before their very eyes?…

For the rest, LISTEN TO THE RANT!


This message coming to you


So do your duty, boys, and join with pride
Serve your country in her suicide
Find the flags, so you can wave goodbye
But just before the end even treason might be worth a try
This country is too young to die



Steps To Becoming Independent – Growing Our Food, Killing Our Friends, Taking Responsibility, by Reese Jones

After the knowing and accepting of Collapse of Empire and Runaway Climate Change, we can take steps to carry on, and carry on well.

In past videos in this series, we’ve discussed emotional upheaval; disbelief, denial, anger and rage, feelings of being adrift on a crazy, storm-tossed sea imprisoned in some uncontrollable nightmare. But as they say, this too shall pass.

The clouds part, and we know we must go on. If not for ourselves, then for our loved ones.

How do we go forward and what steps to take?

In this video, we discuss gardening and food independence and learn about the complexity of reconciliation between crises of conscience and the act of killing our friends. Perhaps importantly, we learn the value of taking responsibility for these very actions.

In all of Nature, killing abounds … if we, as sentient and knowing beings, do it at all, let our killings be swift, and painless as possible, our animals having lived contented lives. For, to survive well, not only is it likely best that we learn to accept and approve of others, we must assuredly accept and approve of ourselves. For if anyone watches what we do, it is us. We are our own greatest judge.

Here, I believe Dr. McPherson addresses this directly, and thoughtfully.


Due to an overwhelming number of submissions, essays in this space will appear at the top of the page for only two days. Essays will be intermixed with questions for discussion. If you could ask a single question concerning near-term human extinction, knowing that everyone at NBL would ponder and then offer their opinion, what form would that question take? If you’re willing, please send your question to It will be posted anonymously for commentary in place of an essay.


Nature Bats Last joins the airwaves Tuesday, 5 August 2014. McPherson will be joined every Tuesday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern by co-host Mike Sliwa for this hour-long show on the Progressive Radio Network. Follow the page and join the group on Facebook.

McPherson was interviewed by UK Collapse radio via Skype on Tuesday, 22 July 2014. Discussion about McPherson begins at the 50-minute mark in the video embedded below.


Loyal online followers of Benjamin the Donkey’s whimsical, incisive “limericks of doom” have been lucky to come across the Internet blogs that showcase his sharp wit. Now they will rejoice to find he has published a compilation of his most clever and penetrating works in hard copy at last. A slender volume in perfect gift size, its modest dimensions are nevertheless replete with his trademark gentle but mournful gallows humor. Whether you already know or merely suspect that humans are relentlessly ruining the earth in myriad ways, Ben’s richly concise pronouncements will leave you in no doubt, and laughter too. Enjoy having your own book and order a few extra for friends who are on the verge of enlightenment…wait, what … you don’t remember what Orwell wrote of Benjamin the Donkey? “… things never had been, nor ever could be much better or much worse hunger, hardship, and disappointment being, so he said, the unalterable law of life.”

An excerpt:

Rational Animals: An Oxymoron

What logical reasoning gave
To us since we came from the cave
Sure got lots of ink
And changed how we think
But not the way we behave.

Order it here, it’s only $3.41!


McPherson’s forthcoming book is co-authored by Carolyn Baker. Extinction Dialogs: How to Live with Death in Mind has been submitted to the publisher and is scheduled for release by 1 October 2014.


Find and join the Near-Term Human Extinction Support Group on Facebook here


If you have registered, or you intend to register, please send an email message to Include the online moniker you’d like to use in this space. I’ll approve your registration as quickly as possible. Thanks for your patience.


Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power, Anne Pyterek at Blue Bus Books, and by more than three dozen readers at Amazon.

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Comments 67

  • Plowing theough the Carolina Pig Farmer’s stuff is fortunately optional at the Manhattan Bar Mitzvah…
    ברוך יהוה

  • Thank you, Reese Jones and UK Collapse Radio: your interviews each covered important new aspects, and were not just SSDD (same stuff, different date). 🙂

  • I have the answer. I have the solution that can save us all.
    Everyone in the entire world, at the same time, must stand on their head and sing while upside down,
    “Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
    All the king’s horses
    And all the king’s men
    Couldn’t put Humpty together again.”
    Find a wall, a tree, or a hunk of rock, it‘s okay to cheat—DO IT. It will work.
    I think.

  • Limericks of Doom—The Book!

    With thanks to Gail Zawacki for her wonderful review (above), to Guy McPherson for leading us, and to everybody in the doomer community who inspired these verses over the years, a collection going back to LATOC and including many originally posted at NBL:

    Limericks of Doom

  • @ TIAA:

    Thanks for your recent long, thought-full comment in response to my most recent essay. No, I do not feel at all angry with you regarding anything you wrote.

    If I have understood your comment correctly (and of course I might not have, so please correct me where I have gotten something wrong), you believe that humans prior to patriarchy lived only, or mostly, in cooperative, understanding, compassionate, giving, sharing ways with little or no “negative” emotions such as anger, anxiety, depression, desire for revenge, rage, and so on, and with little in the way of accompanying behaviors such murder, theft, warfare, and so on: the “Noble Savage”, or “Noble Primitive” idea. Some authors have definitely pushed this idea, but much anthropological and biological evidence strongly suggests otherwise. (Gail provided many references regarding this about a year ago. I highly recommend Cannibalism and Human Sacrifice by Garry Hoagg as just one.)

    First, some biology. War, for example, characterizes not only humans, but also a number of other animal species. You may discount this as mere “patriarchal propaganda”, but to quote Jared Diamond in his most recent book, The World Until Yesterday, “War among chimpanzees resembles human band and tribal warfare in consisting of either chance encounters or else apparently intentional raids involving adult males. Calculated war-related death rates in chimpanzees, 0.36% per year (i.e., 36 chimpanzees per year in a population of 10,000), are similar to those for traditional human societies.” Other social animal species known to practice lethal fighting between groups include lions, wolves, hyenas, and some ant species. Especially given that we share about 98.6% of our genes with chimpanzees, I see no reason to think that we, as a species, escaped their clear tendencies for the anger, rage, anxiety, and depression emotions (among many others), as well as the murder, theft, and warfare behaviors (among many others). We now have much compelling evidence of the complex emotionality of many animal species other than humans, including elephants, dolphins, dogs, among others, and these emotions do NOT include only emotions that you and I might consider “positive”. They also include emotions that we might classify as “negative”, such as anger and rage. (For much more on this, see Animal Wise, The Thoughts and Emotions of Our Fellow Creatures by Virginia Morell, 2013.) I see no reason to suggest that humans prior to patriarchy presumably exhibited only “positive” emotions as you appear to believe and suggest.

    Much compelling anthropological evidence points to human murder, cannibalism, and warfare among pre-civilization, traditional humans tens of thousands of years before we started practicing agriculture. On one hand, I agree completely with you concerning the damage that patriarchy and the oppression of women have done–AND I think that you way over-state your case to suggest that patriarchy presumably serves as the only cause of the soon-coming human extinction, or that we could avoid it by throwing off patriarchy. I think that the “problems” go far, far, deeper than patriarchy, and I think that patriarchy just serves as one complex set of signs and symptoms of those “problems”.

    Or so it seems to me. I consider it wonderful if you do not feel great anger or rage concerning the patriarchal damage done in the past and continuing today. I did not mean to suggest that you necessarily do feel angry. From the tone of your comment, it just seemed as though you might.

  • RE

    ‘A few weeks ago right after I got the new Electric Wheelz …. What Parades here in the FSoA have evolved into is mostly a Celebration of the Consumer Culture’

    Good to see you doing your bit for promoting unsustainability. It would be unpatriotic not to, wouldn’t it?

  • Bud,

    “If I have understood your comment correctly (and of course I might not have, so please correct me where I have gotten something wrong), you believe that humans prior to patriarchy lived only, or mostly, in cooperative, understanding, compassionate, giving, sharing ways with little or no “negative” emotions such as anger, anxiety, depression, desire for revenge, rage, and so on, and with little in the way of accompanying behaviors such murder, theft, warfare, and so on: the “Noble Savage”, or “Noble Primitive” idea.”

    I didn’t hear her say anything like this at all. I picked up that she was talking about the present, and what the future would require, by contrast.

  • @Bud

    You have reiterated and important point. Our chimpanzee-like ancestors needed to be aggressive towards competing bands of their own species and towards competing species in order to survive.

    I know it is stating to obvious but everything was ‘fine’ until wars became chemical wars. The first chemical weaponry involved burning oil and firing burning projectiles at enemies using catapults. Once the secret of mixing oxidising agents with reducing agents was unlocked it went from bad to worse. The incorporation of combustion engines into delivery systems and improved metallurgy facilitated massive increases in the rate of killing of competitors. One of the many reasons for the First World War was Britain’s fear of Germany completing the Berlin to Baghdad railway and competing in the extraction and use of oil from Mesopotamia, and perhaps Persia. Most of the activity in the early phases of the Second World war revolved around securing oil supplies.

    From what I understand, current US involvement in Ukraine is focused on facilitating subjugation of the people who live in the eastern region, with a view to extraction of natural gas for the benefit of sociopaths like Joe Biden and his family etc.

    Sadly, military success is rewarded by increased breeding opportunities and reduced competition for resources.

    We must expect very much elevated levels of violence, both at the international level and at the local level, as resources become scarcer and scarcer. Just look at Israel’s attempts to secure the gas fields to the south. I speculate on when the reversal of the great migration to California will commence. That’ll be mighty ‘interesting’. I suspect Japan will be in its ‘death throes’ by then.

  • I do wish there was an edit function, so we could correct silly typing errors.

  • @ Benjamin the Donkey

    Well done! Your sage wisdom throughout this calamity has been both exceptional and unexpected, and has added a degree of levity which has personally helped me keep a much needed perspective. I have read many of your limericks aloud to my partner over the last couple of years and often find them to be so astute and concise, you often achieve more in five short lines then would otherwise take me more than five pages to express. I consider you to be a godsend, not just to NBL, but anyone who might at times feel themselves being pulled under. I “hope” your sardonic well never runs dry……at least until the lights go out. Take care my friend.

  • Several years ago (may have been 10 years ago) there was a seminal Science publication (sorry I do not have the reference) showing the earliest human ancestors lived 4.5 million years ago. That means that we are not decedents of apes. Rather apes are an offshoot of our linage.

  • Hey RE, I’m proud of you for your anti-war stance. Not many men have the inner fortitude to say what you did. Our country has disgraced itself over and over by murdering what has to be by now, several millions of innocent people in order to turn their resources into profit.

    You mention the Battle Hymn of the Republic, here’s another doozie to set men’s hearts ablaze with a kill crazed frenzy, and women’s hair on fire with the desire to bomb other people’s families into oblivion!

  • Thanks KH.

    Although clearly there is disagreement on many aspects of the collapse between the Diner and NBL, on this topic I think there is general agreement from both camps.

    To answer the allegations of hypocrisy here, it’s not a lot different than Guy flying to Ecuador.

    First off, driving an EV Scooter isn’t the worst thing you can do these days in terms of energy waste, though granted it does whether you use solar PV to charge it or get the electrons off the grid.

    Second, whether you buy NTHE or Bottleneck, either way this doesn’t make a whit of difference to the outcome.

    What it does allow me to do is observe and chronicle the Collapse of Industrial Civilization as I witness here, from my perch on the Last Great Frontier.

    I’m lucky to be here, and glad I am not in Syria or Libya or Ukraine right now. Collapse has not arrived at my doorstep yet, but it will in due time.

    Hopefully, by the time it gets here, people will realize the futility of War to resolve these issues, and come together for the Last Stand.

    You go as long as you can, until you can go no more. In the end, we all die, all planets die too if they ever had life on them to begin with. Nothing is forever, except Eternity.


  • @MMM

    ‘That means that we are not decedents of apes.’

    Perhaps you do not understand what ape means.

    I doubt there would be any evolutionary biologist who contends we are not descended from an ancestral ape species.

  • That collapse sequence seems to be well on it’s way over there in North America:

    ‘Ageing US Power Grid Blacks Out More Than Any Other Developed Nation’

    “The United States endures more blackouts than any other developed nation as the number of U.S. power outages lasting more than an hour have increased steadily for the past decade, according to federal databases at the Department of Energy (DOE) and the North American Electric Reliability Corp. (NERC).”

    And note the statistic that a lot of the increased outages are caused by extreme weather events!

    Just keeping up.

  • Just in case anyone’s might be concerned about infrastructure:

    Structurally deficient bridges near you

  • Good links Robin. On the corroding bridges WE’RE #1 here in PA (thanks to our bankrupt capitol and corrupt governor).

    Ebola outbreak spreads to fourth country

    ABUJA, Nigeria — West Africa’s current Ebola outbreak has spread to a fourth country, after an ill Liberian man vomited, had diarrhea and a high fever on an airplane to Nigeria.

    As soon as the plane landed on Tuesday the 40-year-old Liberian was moved into an isolation ward and he died Friday.

    It is the first case of Ebola to be confirmed in Nigeria, Africa’s most populous country, since the current outbreak began in West Africa earlier this year, according to Nigerian Health Minister Onyebuchi Chukwu


    Ebola, one of the world’s most deadly and contagious diseases, has killed at least 660 and infected 1,093 in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea, and now Nigeria, according to the World Health Organization.

    [cue Ian Malcolm quote here]

    kevin: you’ll see this i’m sure.

    Sunday, 27 July 2014
    Drilling for oil in the Golan Heights

    This is why wars are fought

    Israel Grants First Golan Heights Oil Drilling licence To Dick Cheney-Linked Company

    Israel has granted a U.S. company the first licence to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.

    A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.

    That geographic location will likely prove controversial. Israel seized the Golan Heights in the Six-Day War in 1967 and annexed the territory in 1981. Its administration of the area — which is not recognised by international law — has been mostly peaceful until the Syrian civil war broke out 23 months ago.

    “This action is mostly political – it’s an attempt to deepen Israeli commitment to the occupied Golan Heights,” Israeli political analyst Yaron Ezrahi told FT. “The timing is directly related to the fact that the Syrian government is dealing with violence and chaos and is not free to deal with this problem.” [read the rest]

  • Benjamin: great job! i’ll be ordering a few.

    Vital invertebrates decline by 45 per cent, study finds

    Insects, worms and other small animals that carry out vital functions for life on earth have declined by 45 per cent on average over 35 years, threatening human health, water quality and food supplies, a study has found. [read it]

    Sea temperature off Plymouth hotter than California

    Marine scientists say the water has reached 20.4C (68.7F) off Start Bay, Devon – even warmer than Santa Monica beach in Los Angeles

    Ocean temperatures have a soared to a seven-year high off southwest Britain – making our seas as hot as California.

    Marine scientists say the water has reached 20.4C (68.7F) off Start Bay, Devon, and 20.1C (68.2F) off Perranporth, Cornwall.

    That is even warmer than readings taken from Santa Monica beach in Los Angeles, where its currently lagging behind at 19.4C (66.9F) and only 8C short of the sea temperature in Bali.

    Temperatures off the British coast are also rising by almost 4C a month – twice as fast as normal.

    Scientists at the Plymouth Marine Laboratories say strong sunlight and light winds are responsible for the surge.

  • Bud,

    I can’t speak for TIAA, but I didn’t hear her saying that the past was better than the present (although there were far fewer people, and no civilization to produce them). She would most likely see things differently, but I’m leaning to a non judgmental acceptance of any trait/value/potential from the past or present that helps us cope with what’s to come. And I’d minimize or jettison any that didn’t. HGers were not self conscious. We are, and that’s a big factor re our potential (whatever it is) today. My 2 cents.


    I don’t have any deep understanding regarding matriarchy as opposed to patriarchy. When I started taking an interest in the subject a long time ago, I assumed that one size should fit all. But I wouldn’t make that assumption today. I get the feeling that women’s voices are less heard than men’s when it comes to war or the economic structure that determine how we treat others and the planet. Everybody wants to fit into the dominant paradigm.

  • Being right is more important to most than truth.

  • @ mt

    What is the definition of ‘truth’, mt ? I suggest that, as an abstraction, no such thing exists. In a particular case, it does, but then discovering it, and verifying it, is the challenge, and will not be possible in all cases. Some people’s claims will be right and some will be wrong, but in many instances the matter may never be settled, because sufficient evidence is unattainable.

  • I can’t give you that definition. I will say that right and wrong have nothing to do with the truth.

  • @Ul
    Also, you write:”I suggest that, as an abstraction, no such thing exists.”
    I think, as abstraction, it is all that exist.” Who knows?

  • Right and wrong is the very essence of truth.

  • Shep
    Therefore, this end we face, is it right or wrong?
    (sorry for extra post. I don’t do forums. I’ll stop now)

  • @ Shep, mt

    Right and wrong is more like morality and ethics, isn’t it ? Re truth, we should be talking correct versus incorrect, no ?

    And if you think that ‘truth as an abstraction is all that exists’ can I have a definition please ?

  • Tom, thanks! Yeah, the book is cheaper than the shipping, can always use an extra copy to piss off some denier you never want to hear from again. 😀

    Daniel, thank you so much.

    IMHO, your post in April 2013 was one of the major events in doomer history.

    “The irreconcilable acceptance of near-term extinction”

    The irreconcilable acceptance of near-term extinction

    A year ago Daniel came;
    Made our cares up till then appear tame:
    NTE, well defined,
    Blew everyone’s mind,
    And since then we’ve not been the same.

  • @ ulvfugl Says:
    July 27th, 2014 at 6:47 am

    If you’re not an attorney, perhaps you missed your ‘calling.’

  • mt

    Oh, no! You cannot tell me you do not know what is right, wrong and truthful. You are playing, right?

  • OMFG, why is there never a download link on these podcasts? I want to listen on my ipod, not online

  • @ Colin

    @ Shep

    It’s a cultural variable. Depends when and where you happen to live.

    Can you give any example of any act or statement that’s always been right under all circumstances at all times ? I don’t think there are any are there ?

    Neither in the moral/ethical domain, nor the empirical/experiential domain.

    You could say that it’s always wrong to kill another human, but then what do you do if someone is about to murder your mother with an axe, do you let them do it ? Or do you kill them, to save your mother ?

    You could say that it’s always been correct that the Sun goes around the Earth, because that’s what we perceive to be the case, but science has established that to be incorrect, the Earth goes around the Sun.

    I think it is impossible to make any statement that is ‘true’. All we can do is make a claim to truth, based on the knowledge and evidence that we have presently available.

  • ulfugi

    Please. Murder is wrong. If u happen to kill another person, it isn’t murder.

    U can make up all kinds of dilemmas but it is silly in my mind.

    I can make all kinds of statements that are true: Murder is wrong. Period.
    War is wrong. Period. Poverty is wrong. Period. Class is wrong. Period. Capitalism is wrong. Period…

    Don’t know what you gain by ur sun orbit senario. It doesn’t matter.

  • artleads

    “…H/Gers were not self conscious…”

    I’m not sure we could know this A, but, I feel that HG were self reflective, especially of what went on in their environment.
    We see so little actual ‘wildlife’ now, and some accounts in European explorer journals, esp. to the Americas, tell of teeming abundant land animals, aquatic life and plants. There may have been places where ranges were stressed at times, like Central Desert Australia, however it seems clear that in others when the living was good it was superb! So there may have been little need to be ‘Self conscious’ in the framing you mean, but I think their wisdom, and elder and shamanic traditions were in part aligned with seeing what was tipping out of balance, both in themselves and their environment.
    Just a few Talers worth there.

    How is your neck of the woods going? I forgotten where it is?

    Cheers 🙂

  • @ Shep

    Please. Murder is wrong. If u happen to kill another person, it isn’t murder.

    U can make up all kinds of dilemmas but it is silly in my mind.

    I can make all kinds of statements that are true: Murder is wrong. Period.
    War is wrong. Period. Poverty is wrong. Period. Class is wrong. Period. Capitalism is wrong. Period…

    Don’t know what you gain by ur sun orbit senario. It doesn’t matter.

    Seems to me, Shep, that that is ‘dogma’, not ‘thinking’.

    What you are saying is that murder, war, poverty, class, capitalism, are BAD, (because you don’t like them ?) which is not quite the same thing as what I am talking about when I right versus wrong, and you really can’t bundle together such very different things, you just make it impossible to discuss by adding so many complications.

    To clarify the issue we have to make it as simple as possible, to get to the essential principle.

    So what is murder ? It’s killing another human being.

    In American law, there’s degrees. In British law, there’s a different system, they have murder, manslaughter, etc. In France they have Crime Passionel or whatever they call it.

    But humans have always recognised that there can be different motives for doing the killing, and that the motive makes a difference.

    Doesn’t make much difference to the dead victim though, does it. They are still dead, whether shot by a police or hit by a car or stabbed by a mugger or killed in self defence by someone they attacked.

    But the law will treat each case differently.

    So, you’re saying killing someone isn’t necessarily murder, so it’s the WORDS that matter, and make the difference ?

    Well, okay, I’ll go along with that. But that’s PHILOSOPHY.

    We’ve had two thousand years and more of philosophers doing philosophy, trying to sort this stuff out.

    Is it sorted yet ?

  • America, “the last great frontier” was somebody’s home long before it became your frontier. You are “lucky” to live there in the same sense that British torries, the queens subjects, were lucky to live in London, while the pleebs they fed off of – just as if they took a bone saw to their skulls and sucked their brains out – lived out there in the colonial wasteland. And your scooters and your elektrik wheelz are just as much of a dagger pointed at the heart of the children as jumbo jet en route to Equador. The freak show cannot end soon enough for me out here in the center of fascist militarist hell while you speed about and continue the vapid and ridiculous self-serving rationalizations.

  • A wise man once said, “Let he that hath no carbon footprint throw the first hissy fit.”

  • Well W, you too are the beneficiary of the fact Europeans overran the NA Continent and built the Fascist, Industrial Hell you live in. At least if you live in the FSoA in the Lower 48, which it sounds like you do. Not too much different in Jolly Old England though, where you had Normans and Saxons battling it out, and Celts getting basically wiped out there, at least culturally speaking. The genetics passed on though, since lot of interbreeding went on through all the conquests and killing.

    You can say the same thing for virtually every place on earth, whoever still lives there probably is not from precisely the same genetic stock as who got there first, before any other HS made it to the location. The last place that occurred was on the Big Island of Hawaii, where the first Polynesian Navigators made landfall there around 1000AD. No other people there at the time, they could grab the resources without getting rid of whoever was there before them.

    Born in this time, if born inside one of the Industrialized Nations,you have little choice but to live this lifestyle if you expect to live at all. Subsistence farming is near impossible, you can’t compete with Big Ag to make a living this way, which means you can’t pay the taxes on the land if you do not have an outside source of FRNs. You can’t go live as an H-G, all the land is governed by the Fish & Game Department and Parks Department. In Alaska, you can do it still if you go far enough out, but even then you violate laws to do it and if caught you get fines you don’t have money to pay.

    It is what it is. Guy still flies on planes to Ecuador, I still cruise the parade route on an Electric Scooter. In due time, the Planes will stop flying and my scooter will die too. However, the scooter is likely to work a few more years than the planes will.

    It goes until it goes no more. When this paradigm for living ends, you move on to another one, for so long as that works. As with all of life, it’s just a timeline question, because everything dies in the end, even planets.


  • In coming months Ruth and Steve will ­disconnect themselves totally from the civilised world. “You have found us at an extraordinary moment in our lives,” Steve says. “As we make our transition.” Ruth has left behind houses and cars and furniture and expensive ornaments and jewellery.

    The errant baby tomato beneath her feet is more precious to her than any of it. “The world of man proceeds on a suicidal journey,” she says. “We’ve turned all of life into a commodity. Everything has a price. Everything is for sale … and it finally became impossible for us. We couldn’t go on participating in it.”

  • Also it is said, “He who livest not upon land once plundered, dwells in La La Land.”

    NOTE: (“He who farteth in church, must sit in own pew.”)

  • Wow! Edenhope is amazing! They certainly have the right idea and I wish them a long run.

  • @km

    Try this news article from 2005.

    Anthropologists find 4.5 million-year-old hominid fossils in Ethiopia

    Think about this for a second. If we have be evolving for 4.5 million years, where did the ancestral ape species come from?

    Sorry, I cannot get access to the original Science article for you…


  • “In coming months Ruth and Steve will ­disconnect themselves totally from the civilised world. “You have found us at an extraordinary moment in our lives,” Steve says. “As we make our transition.” Ruth has left behind houses and cars and furniture and expensive ornaments and jewellery.”-UF

    That is a interesting story, and quite SUN-like. Surprised UF posted it.

    Of course, to pull it off, Steve came into it with a truckload of money from the industrial economy, and used Front End Loaders to get the thing build. Still apparently using motorcycles too there, wonder where they get the gas?

    Not too sure about how wise this location choice is, sea level rise is bound to take out most of the current land mass on the island.

    Given Steve is well into his 70s now, this little Paradise may last for the rest of his days walking the earth. However, it’s probably not good more than 20 years with current trends. For a longer timeline here, you want to be higher above Sea Level, and in more upper latitudes, north or south.


  • “At least if you live in the FSoA in the Lower 48, which it sounds like you do.”

    Deafness or imbecility? Or both?

  • Surprised UF posted it.

    Deafness or imbecility? Or both?


  • @MMM

    The last time I looked at the matter (it has been quite a while since I taught biology) the consensus was that the ape line branched from the monkey line, which branched from a lemur-like ancestor species. However, that may not be correct.

    Although of academic interest, it really does not matter much now that homo colossus is rapidly wiping out all primate species, and is set to wipe out most vertebrate species.

  • @RD&U

    ‘The last place that occurred was on the Big Island of Hawaii, where the first Polynesian Navigators made landfall there around 1000AD.’

    Fortunately RE doesn’t know about existence of New Zealand. I won’t tell him if you don’t.

  • Edenhope looks a bit too idyllic, but that’s just me.

    The young woman with home made clothes, (not sayin that they should be factory made) holding a cornucopia of fruit seems like an image that is stock ‘n’ trade for 1970’s – 80’s advertising to adolescent males.

    But hey, these people are trying something else it seems.

    One would have to go there for a reki to have a better idea.
    Best wishes to them.

    One has to ask, ‘How does one exit Industrial Economic Activity and be real?’
    One foot in front of the other, I am finding.

  • For RE

    ‘Testing out Honda’s personal mobility Uni-Cub device’
    (Sorry for 3 posts)

    In the old days we called it….


    Funny how we may actually reinventing the wheel too, but walking?
    Loosing that ability too now, it seems

    Just sayin

  • “Fortunately RE doesn’t know about existence of New Zealand. I won’t tell him if you don’t.”-KM

    I stand corrected. 🙂

    According to archaeological evidence, NZ was not colonized until around 1280 AD. Hawaii on the other hand shows evidence of colonization as early as 300AD, although most seems to have occurred around 1000AD.

    So NZ gets the nod here as the LAST place on earth colonized by Homo Sapiens, at least in the pre-industrial era. This surprises me a bit, given the size of NZ islands, but the location I suppose was such that Polynesian Navigators did not go that way early on. There are places like Tristan da Cunha, Edinburgh of the Seven Seas that were colonized by Brits during the Age of Exploration.

    Anyhow, splitting hairs here, the point is that wherever you live, chances are it has gone through numerous iterations of conquest of one sort or the other. At this stage of the game, it is pointless to wonder how things might have been if Europeans had not decimated Natives of the New World, or Normans and Saxons had not battled over Britain, etc. That is how it played out, we live with the results today.

    Beyond that, it is utterly stupid to attack Guy because he flies in Jets to Ecuador. It makes Zero Difference now whether Guy flies to Ecuador or to the Moon. The outcome here will be what it will be, regardless of what actions Guy takes. For you folks to attack him for this is ridiculous.

    Guy is a highly moral and concerned person, and I am appalled that people will attack him in this way. He lives with the hypocrisy of flying in jets, as every one of us lives with the hypocrisy of posting on the internet. People who live in Glass Houses should not throw stones.


  • Re: the recent comment by Mr Nye in response to TIAA. I may be mistaken, but as far as I am aware our nearest genetic relative is not the chimpanze but the bonobo. There is, apparently, little to no violence in bonobo communities which appear to be quite female centred. Potential conflict appears to be defused by use of frequent sexual activity.
    The chimp studies that have been done in the past point to flawed studies AFAIK, especially the ones at the Goodal Institute. I understand the studies have been done with very stressed populations.
    Either way, I certainly do not believe that it is an inherent human trait to be warlike or randomly violent unless put under stressful living conditions. Bonobo communities would seem to be a good exemplar on what pre civ human society may have been like.

  • “People who live in Glass Houses should not throw stones.”

    Perhaps that’s why some prefer to live in concrete domes.

    “I certainly do not believe that it is an inherent human trait to be warlike or randomly violent unless put under stressful living conditions.”

    Peace under stress-free conditions is true from microbes on up. Just introduced into a pristine environment, organisms are peaceful to the extent that their adaptations allow (predators will be predators: the lion shall lie down with the lamb – but pretty soon the lamb will be inside the lion).

    Given half a chance, every organism will reproduce to more than replacement. The excess will survive to reproductive age if there is enough carrying capacity accessible to it. Otherwise it will become the latter part of “Eat or be eaten”. Once carrying capacity is saturated, traits and behaviours that enable the destruction of competitors, both conspecific and heterospecific, will prove adaptive.

    Battles and wars are directly or indirectly for resources. Predators have a lifestyle where the prey is the resource. Yet predators perform important ecosystem services by modulating prey populations. Our much-vaunted policy to “promote” democracy is put on indefinite hold when autocratic princely states provide access to energy resources in petroleum. Even so is the case with dictators, just so long as they don’t wise up and re-price their barrels in something other than little green pictures of dead ‘mericun presidents.

    Being the top predator, Homo callidus is well adapted to turn its predatory talents on conspecifics. Which it has done since the first hunter-gatherer bands contested resources. Or so the anthropologists say.

  • Oz Man,

    Thanks for that. (I kind of stumbled onto the issue in the attempt to follow up on TIAA’s thinking. You know more about the subject than I do.) I’m in northern NM. We had a mighty flood last year, for which few were prepared. As a result the natural vegetation is taking off like I’ve never seen it. Weird to see such vigor in the high desert. Spoke to a volunteer at the Botanical Garden, who said that this place had switched from a “zone 5” to a “zone 6,” so that a number of plants were no longer adapting here. She explained that hardy hybrids, including from places like South Africa, were attempting to replace the lost natives. Her strategy was to plant with less diversity and more hardiness, aided by rocks–to keep roots cool, she said. Other than that, I’m doing a small amount to help make the place more adaptable to future floods, should we be so lucky to get them. 🙂

    Nice to hear about your general direction. Take care. 🙂

  • Artleads said: “HGers were not self conscious”.

    Where on earth did you get that ridiculous notion from? Of course they “were” self conscious; not to belittle the fact that there are still HGers in existence who most definately are self conscious/self aware, however you wish to term it.

    I would also suggest that many, many other species are also; some maybe even more so than present day civilised humans.

  • @RE

    Correction accepted.

    The advantage of being colonised last is that the wrecking ball hasn’t had as long to operate and the environment isn’t as degraded as in most other places. However, since the early 1980s the wrecking ball has been in ‘hyper-drive’, especially in the Auckland region, and ‘clean green’ is more marketing than reality.

  • Another climate chaos concurrence (CCC): rapid-spreading flesh-eating bacteria.

    The last thing Rodney Donald was expecting during his family’s vacation on the Chesapeake Bay was to almost lose a leg to an aggressive bacteria growing in the brackish waters.

    “I’ve grown up on the bay my whole life, and I’m 66,” said Donald, propped up in a bed at MedStar Washington Hospital Center, his right leg stretched out, swathed in bandages. “I’d never even heard about it.”

    Vibrio vulnificus, of the same family as vibrio cholera, is a rapid-spreading flesh-eating bacteria that naturally occurs in saltwater or estuaries, particularly from May to October.

    “We might be seeing more of it, since it is getting warmer,” said Ligia Pic-Aluas, an epidemiologist at MedStar Washington.

  • People make mountains out of mole hills all the time.

    Laws are for the benefit of elites in many, many cases.

    There are many ridiculous notions and ploys in philosophy. Circle discussions are just one.

  • Oh!

    Waste of time.

  • MMM: along the same line

    Exclusive: Discovery reveals role of sewerage plants in creating mutated microbes that are resistant to antibiotics

    Superbugs resistant to some of the most powerful antibiotics in the medical arsenal have been found for the first time in a British river – with scientists pinpointing a local sewage-treatment plant as the most likely source.

    Scientists discovered the drug-resistant bacteria in sediment samples taken downstream of the sewerage plant on the River Sowe near Coventry. The microbes contained mutated genes that confer resistance to the latest generation of antibiotics.

    The researchers believe the discovery shows how antibiotic resistance has become widespread in the environment, with sewage-treatment plants now acting as giant “mixing vessels” where antibiotic resistance can spread between different microbes.

    A study found that a wide range of microbes living in the river had acquired a genetic mutation that is known to provide resistance to third-generation cephalosporins, a class of antibiotics used widely to treat meningitis, blood infections and other hospital-acquired infections.

    Within the river sediment, the scientists also found human gut bacteria that had developed resistance to another kind of antibiotic, called imipenem, which is administered by intravenous injections for severe infections not normally treatable with other antibiotics.

    “These are frontline antibiotics and we were not expecting to see these kinds of levels of resistance to them in the environment. It is quite staggering,” said Professor Elizabeth Wellington of the University of Warwick, who led the study. “This is a worrying development and we need to be concerned about it. We’ve completely underestimated the role waste-treatment processes can play in antibiotic resistance,” she told The Independent. [read the rest]

    The world is almost certain to be struck by the “El Nino” phenomenon this year, with the potential to induce “major climactic impacts” around the world, the Met Office has warned.

  • I’ve posted the first in a series of questions for discussion. Catch it, and other tidbits, here.

  • @ Shep

    There are many ridiculous notions and ploys in philosophy.

    Of course. So the point of it is, to sort out the good ideas from the bad, the correct thinking from the incorrect, so that we can try and establish better understanding.

    You made claims that murder, capitalism, etc, are wrong. But that’s no good, is it, because someone else will always raise the question ‘Why ?’ and if all you have to offer is ‘Because Shep says so’, then you’re going to lose every time against the opponent who has a clear and well-reasoned case to argue.

    This is how it works, and how it has always worked for the last several thousand years.

    People sit around and listen to the arguments and are persuaded one way or the other. You have to convince them of the merits of your view as contrasted with the weakness of the other views.

    This is how humans conduct their affairs, whether it’s deciding to condemn Socrates, or to condemn Jesus, or whether Darwin’s evolution or global warming is true, or whatever.

    You can’t just stand there and say ‘It’s right because I believe it’s right’ and expect everyone to fall into line, because they are not going to are they.

    Why is murder wrong ? What’s the basis for your claim ? Is it because you are a Christian and it says that it is wrong in the Bible ? Why do Christians believe it’s wrong ? Why do Christians kill people ? What about people who are not Christians, is it okay for them to murder, or is there some other reason not to murder ?

    Same goes for Capitalism, or whatever.

    The point of philosophy is to try and dig and find a clearer, better insight and mutual understanding of the fundamental matters that all humans share.

    You want to give up, and say it’s a waste of time, because it is hard work, demanding, difficult, a struggle. Yes, we all fucking know that.
    But what else have we got ?

  • Red fox

    “Artleads said: “HGers were not self conscious”.

    Sorry for the offense. I’m sorry I said that, and I’m not defending it.

  • @Artleads-no problem; I didnt take offence, I was just trying to put the record straight. There seems to be an awful lot of confusion about HG life in general spanning the whole spectrum of “noble savage” on the one hand to “crazed cannibals” on the other. The reaction to Jared Diamonds recent book “The World Until Yesterday” being a good example. Survival International launched a scathing attack upon it when it came out…

  • Some great links here in the comments… much appreciation. About patriarcy; Dr. McPherson has a rather stark video coming up likely next week regarding that very thing.

  • From realclimate:

    There must be more to the methane situation.>

    [Response: Mostly a good summary, but giving credence to Carana’s blog is a mistake (it’s almost all wrong), and the IASI satellite retrievals are not reliable (and still unpublished). – gavin]