Obituary of a Species

by Peter Melton and Guy McPherson

Homo sapiens (no photo available)

Age unknown, likely between 6,023 and 2,148,341 years of age.

The last member of the species died last night, 1 April 2030.

Take 1: The final survivor died a lonely death floating on a tree trunk somewhere near what was once known as the United States of America. A little bird told me.

Take 2: The final survivor died on his private island, known as Everest. In an odd twist of fate, the lone tree on the island fell and landed on him while he was fishing.

Take 3: In a profoundly human twist of fate, the final survivor, legless and with only one arm, died after eating his own heart.

He is survived by no other human family members. It is believed he is survived by many jellyfish and thermophiles in the great ocean and numerous methane-eating bacteria and methane-eating microbes in the small patches of land remaining on the planet.

The origin of the species has always been disputed. It either started when a Creator figure put together two mud figures in a garden, or the creature evolved through a very long process over millions of years from a single-celled being in the ocean, through fish, amphibians, and eventually the apes. This origin has been violently disputed. In fact, it is estimated that more than two zillion beings lost their lives in wars sparked mostly by this religious dispute or a fight over finite resources. Over the final 200 years, humanity fouled the water, land and atmosphere so much that the habitat became literally “unlivable.”

More recently, Homo sapiens spent that last 30 years of its life watching and largely causing, the death of almost all species of marine, land, and sky animals they supposedly loved, along with the extinction of millions of less-obvious species in the delicate web of life. Apparently humans did not care at all about these latter species. The most powerful species on the planet turned wilderness into cities. It transformed Eden into Purgatory, and then finally into Hell.

Hourglass with landbase pouring into city

The never-ending quest for more led humanity to learn the ultimate hard lesson: “More is Less.” The lesson came after the exam, and proved lethal.

In the end, it seems that this species was not able to grasp the idea that they could not continue to multiply their population and enjoy unlimited, ongoing growth and consumption on a small, finite, and fragile planet. It’s tragically sad, really, because the species had such great potential.

The species left a tremendous legacy. In its wake, Earth was depleted of life, but fully blanketed with garbage and pollution. The water fouled, the air polluted with a toxic soup of emissions and ionizing radiation. Once-thriving soils became as lifeless as the oceans. And don’t even get me started on the stunning conversion of fossil fuels by fossil fools.

The last human was self-buried at sea with no one in attendance. The few species that remain are very happy that the Wicked Witch is dead and they request that all donations go to the amazing non-profit organization, Nature Bats Last.


BelleIslander posted a thoughtful comment on the latest thread. I’d appreciate your reaction to it.


Catch Nature Bats Last on the radio with Mike Sliwa and Guy McPherson. Tune in every Tuesday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time, or catch up in the archives here. If you prefer the iTunes version, including the option to subscribe, you can click here. Next week’s show will feature an interview with two people living well outside the mainstream, brief segments on breaking hopium with Lindsay Morrison and Forrest Palmer, news beyond the mainstream, Doomer of the Week, and an update on the climate-change front.


McPherson’s forthcoming book is co-authored by Carolyn Baker. Extinction Dialogs: How to Live with Death in Mind has been submitted to the publisher and is scheduled for release before 1 October 2014.


Find and join the Near-Term Human Extinction Support Group on Facebook here


If you have registered, or you intend to register, please send an email message to Include the online moniker you’d like to use in this space. I’ll approve your registration as quickly as possible. Thanks for your patience.


Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power, Anne Pyterek at Blue Bus Books, and by more than three dozen readers at Amazon.

Comments 74

  • Who was the narrator in this futuristic scenario if the last of our species went extinct, and who was he/she talking to?

    As to belleislanders comment an “Ardmore-ism” (where I grew up and encountered some strange humans) comes to mind:

    “Hey, eatcher own!” [mangled version of “To each his own.”]

    In other words, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I happen to side more with the sentiment that ulvfugl expressed in reaction to it, but that’s just me and of no consequence. I also thought the 2nd show was awful, but because the sound quality was so poor, breaking up continually (and at just the wrong spots), and inconsistent. i’m sure future shows will evolve to be better and expose many sides and reactions to the on-going extinction of life. i’ll be listening.

  • Belleislander
    you obviously host or produce a fabulous podcast here on the web. Please provide the link.

  • Freetown (AFP) – The UN’s health agency said the scale of the Ebola outbreak in West Africa has been vastly underestimated and “extraordinary measures” were needed to contain the disease.

    The Plague (Camus) doesn’t have a happy ending, of course, though it’s not quite as hopeless as you might think. Initially, Dr. Rieux is a little resigned to the disease that’s threatening his city: “One hardly knows what a dead man is, after a while,” Camus writes. “And since a dead man has no substance unless one has actually seen him dead, a hundred million corpses broadcast through history are no more than a puff of smoke in the imagination.”

    Medicine, religion, so-called journalistic facts, even the daily business of living in the midst of plague—no belief system, science or philosophy—can approximate the reality of pain, suffering, and death, especially that which affects “an innocent child.” Disgust at such senseless and widespread suffering ceases to be conceptual or intellectual when one willingly undergoes exposure to it. No one is untouched by Jacques’ death, least of all Rieux, who says, in reaction to Father Paneloux’s platitudinous statement, “But perhaps we should love what we cannot understand”:

    “No, Father. I’ve a very different idea of love. And until my dying day I shall refuse to love a scheme of things in which children are put to torture.”

    Just sittin’ on this runaway train, staring out the window, with a cat on my lap.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

  • BelleIslander posted a thoughtful comment on the latest thread. I’d appreciate your reaction to it.

    Concur with criticism as well as suggestions.

  • I think this guy supports nuclear, which I do not, but I found this interesting

  • Guy’

    Ur drawing flies! This is good! The mother fuckers are finally getting nervous.

  • It’s hard to think of one of my three beloved children self-cannibalizing. I don’t believe contemplating these scenarios helps me go forward with clarity or love. I’m speaking strictly for myself.

  • Dear Belleislander,

    Yep, still tastes like Parmesan.

    Here, try this instead:

  • @ Bellslander-

    I’m sure the powers that be just love you!

    While a small handful of the brightest and best on this planet attempted to stop the madness, there you were with all your “let’s be nice now, work within the system for change, don’t make anyone mad, you wouldn’t want to be labeled a terrorist and go to jail now would you?”.

    To be honest, I’d like to kick your teeth out. I hold you and people like you to be way up there on the totem pole of responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in now.

    “The evil of our civilization cannot be combated by campaigns which oppose militarism and conscription but leave the American economic and social system intact.”
    Dave Dellinger, one of the Chicago 8

    “For years I labored with the idea of reforming the existing institutions, a little change here, a little change there. Now I feel quite differently. I think you’ve got to have a reconstruction of the entire society, a revolution of values.”
    M. L. King a few months before he was assassinated.

    Did you not ‘get’ what they were saying, way back in the 60’s?
    They were saying that you cannot work within the system to change the system, you have to tear it down and start from scratch.


  • Willful ignorance is tough to handle.
    Knowingly lying, well, I just can’t handle that.
    I’m slowly going mad!

  • ‘Take 1: The final survivor died a lonely death floating on a tree trunk somewhere near what was once known as the United States of America. A little bird told me.’

    Presumably this was after the US extended its borders northward to the northern coastline of what was once known as Canada and southwards to the southern tip of what was once known as Chile, and invaded what was once known as New Zealand, all in the quest for energy and habitat for the psychotic sociopaths who rule the United States.

    ‘With the imminent collapse of the U.S. dollar and their economy and the unfolding climate change debacle, where huge parts of the U.S. are becoming uninhabitable, the powers that be in the U.S. will be looking for a bolthole.

    Google Lake Mead and the Californian drought if you are unaware of this.

    I believe that the U.S. will one day soon invade NZ and take over the Government. John Key was sent here to soften us up and prepare the way as collapse approaches our position as a food producer with unlimited resources make us a likely target.

    — Kevin Hester’

    Invade NZ again. First time 1942. Then in the 1950s via gas guzzlers. And in the 1979s via KFC, McDonald’s and the Dukes of Hazard, Then in the 1980s via globalisation of ‘the markets’. And from the 1990s onward via James Cameron etc.

    The British invasion in the nineteenth century was a different matters altogether because that was only for resources, profit and control. No British sociopath at the time would ever have dreamed of living in ‘the shaky isles’.

    Now, as well as being ‘the shaky isles’, NZ is the ‘Shonkey Isles’, reference to John Key, big chief of the saboteurs: “Build more roads and more convention centres. Open up the conservation estate to drilling and mining,” a place where everything is becoming increasingly shonky.

    shonky (ˈʃɒŋkɪ)
    adj, -kier or -kiest
    1. of dubious integrity or legality

    2. unreliable; unsound


    Is Collapse the Only Real “Fix” to Our Healthcare and Legal Systems?

    If structural reform is impossible as a result of political capture by vested interests, collapse is the only “fix” left.

    [after two expositions by insiders, the article concludes]

    In general, insiders don’t criticize other insiders, and this pressure to hide the sector’s dirty little secrets and avoid the blowback of ratting out the rotten wood dooms the system to collapse. This dynamic is scale-invariant and functions in every broken system: politics, finance, healthcare, law enforcement, the war on drugs gulag, the military, the military-industrial complex, the national Security State–the list is endless.

    If structural reform is impossible as a result of lobbying (i.e. the political capture of governance and regulation) by vested interests that profit handsomely from these broken systems, collapse is the only “fix” left.

  • Tom.

    A belated thanks for the comments and links. There was something fairly idiotic on the previous thread, and I thought I should respond but couldn’t be bothered going over the same ground yet again. But you did respond. :)

    ‘The major reservoirs in California are in aggregate at 59% of the historical average, still above the 41% of average recorded during the 1976-77 drought. But some reservoirs are below 1977 levels, especially in west-central parts of the state, and water restrictions have been imposed statewide.’

    So, is it bad? Or is it not bad? What do the locals say?

    Looking at the map I can understand people in the west of the US talking about it being ‘all over by 2030’. However, down here it’s lovely, other than the fact that the general populace is lied to and robbed every day and everything that matters is being made worse by the government but most people do not even realise.

  • Guy, I’ve enjoyed your lectures to various groups that have been archived on youtube, and try to watch most of them. The recent interviews with Reese I’ve liked too, too, but mostly because I am interested in you as a man and not just as someone who educates me on climate change and NTHE.

    Radio shows and podcasts are not something I usually take the time for, frankly. Maybe it’s my age showing, or the way I use the net, which is more oriented toward reading than listening. I haven’t seen the new show, and I don’t have much interest there. I do realize that I’m the polar opposite of most younger people in that regard, and I hope the show brings your message to a broader audience.

    I did read BelleIslander’s comment, and I have mixed feelings about what he said. I’m not quite as uptight as he is about people who monkeywrench. I don’t myself, never have, but I’m a great admirer of some folks who have committed what might be considered to be crimes against property in defense of the planet. Depends on the crime, and whose property. I discriminate against corporations, unlike the Supreme Court. However, I don’t see it as much of a strategy, at least not anymore.

    BelleIslander seems like an uptight prick to me, and I expect he’ll fit in fine here in the comments section at NBL.

    I enjoyed the obit. It reminded me of something Kurt Vonnegut might have written. Too bad he lost his sense of humor at the end. He was definitely a believer in NTHE, and it made him angry. I believe he probably died angry. I don’t intend to live or die angry. It’s just not the way I roll. I try not to obsess about things I can’t change, just try to change what I can, which hopefully is mostly my own behavior.

    I get the distinct impression that many of the people who take the time to comment here are looking to take some pleasure in the collapse of industrial civilization, and maybe even in NTE, because it will prove their POV to be correct, and perhaps validate their long years of work as environmentalists of one kind or another. I believe some of them are hoping against hope that IC will collapse soon enough to save some people and/or plants and animals, although that seems highly unlikely. Some of them would like to see people “responsible” endure a particularly slow and painful death. I get why they feel that way, but it’s just not worth it to be so angry.

    Me, I will take no pleasure in the suffering that is bound to come, and saying “I told you so” is not something I’d waste my time saying. I’m just a regular guy, living life. I try to remember that my life, this incarnation, has been really incredible. Fabulous. Stu-fuckin’-pendous, really. I mostly grieve for my kids and other more or less innocent life forms. But never ever has there been a time guaranteed to be painless and trouble free, for us humans here on earth. It isn’t that kind of existence, and it never was.

    I do wish we could have developed a sustainable path, though. I really do, and that’s why I keep working toward those ends, even in the face of doom.

    Thanks for letting me comment here, and vent, and give some thought to these questions, which make me think a lot. It’s still a worthwhile pursuit.

  • Guy McPherson says: BelleIslander posted a thoughtful comment on the latest thread. I’d appreciate your reaction to it.

    BelleIslander says: …the world’s goose is already quite cooked and there isn’t a damned thing that any of us might presently do about it….

    What The Heck

    Our world is getting too hot,
    So we’re put in a terrible spot;
    Since we cannot do squat,
    Let’s connect the last dot:
    Either we’re fucked or we’re not.

  • re BelleIslander’s comment.
    Yes, heaven knows, you must be level-headed or there could be some future harm. Since the topic is that there is not likely to be “some future,” I find the exhortations to be meaningless. Where is the outrage against the actual murderous criminal raping of our planet? And where do I sign up to be a paid provocateur? I missed the ad for “See the World, Become a Professional Dissenter!” I do it for free.
    And I like the tune and am not 14.

  • HaHA! The idea of an obituary for all mankind is so filled with possibilities – love the concept… admittedly tho the subject is tragic of course…

    Here lies man; the most deplorable creature ever to grace (excuse me, disgrace) this planet with its malevolent self. Good bye dear man…

    Oh dag blasted… took too long, not vile enough an ending. Ah well… will be back in a billion or so. Let’s see what trouble and tragedy I can muster up THEN heh heh. Man was DISGUSTINGLY too easy, like squeezing ragged, fetid, pus-filled little maggots between my perverse and deliciously trembling fingers. What a PLEASURE. The Tree of Life? The wager? I demand another chance!

    The Earth
    You were given every part of me… every intimate cranny and crevice. I was a lush, ripe and gentle virgin, ready to avail you of the truest and purest of honorable delights any good man could ever desire. But you debased me, as if I was the most piteous of whores at the whim of the maddest and most depraved of predators. You had it ALL. And, you proved yourselves to be utterly unworthy. There are many of me; more verdant, more lovely, more bountiful… but YOU shall NEVER know them. You lost it ALL.

    Lab Animals
    If you ONLY knew what UNIMAGINABLE, GRIEVOUS suffering you caused… death is my release, and for the sake of all my brethren creatures, I am relieved you are gone.

    Average Industrialized Teenager
    I can’t believe this! I can’t believe it! omg!

    Charles Dickens
    It was the best of times, it was the worst of times…

    DumDumDum Dummm… DumDumDumDUMMMM…B…

    Kim Kardassian
    It was not in the script. Not. In. the. Script.

    (Disclaimer: I love Kim Kardassian, she’s lovely and has her own wonderful talent. Haven’t really seen much of her show,but because she’s so extremely popular, had to include her here as a spokesperson.

    Ninja Turtles
    Wax on, wax off…


    So sorry. But what would Carlin say? Or Robin? Love to them both…

    Or God?

    My God Perhaps
    If there were but 2 things for you to do, you were asked to love Me with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and secondly, to love your neighbour as the Good Samaritan loved the stranger by the road. You were to steward the Earth and all its creatures there on with that love. Had you done so, all your most beautiful dreams and desires could have been realized beyond imagining. But you chose to misinterpret my Word, to defile your home and its creatures, and now, you come home to Me. It has been said there is a heaven and a hell…


    Personally, in my little life, I’ve seen many things, but the most wonderful thing of all was seeing the white light as a child. There is a place, if only imagined, that is beyond description. It is SO filled with light, and a mystical, mysterious love, that nothing of this dimension can likely ever even CONCEIVE of it. It is without understanding. But I saw it and felt it, and it gives me a hope. I feel there could be indeed, a heaven. As for the other… not sure.

    And so, these late days, I try and make better choices. Who knows the afterlife? We have a chance to do this better, even if it is the end.

    jmho : )

  • “just try to change what I can, which hopefully is mostly my own behavior.

    it’s just not worth it to be so angry.”

    Realisation: few will recognise how advanced.

  • Take 4: The final survivor desperately grasped the top of the capitol dome in D.C. as the tides swept out, deliriously shouting “350 ppm! 350 ppm! Daggumit! I know we can do this! 350 ppm! Three fifty.[gurgle] parts.. [gasp] per…[argh] millllli….”

  • Peter Melton and Guy McPherson say: Obituary of a Species


    If you’re seeking to get a profound view
    Of what humans, ere they were downed, knew,
    You’ll discover, decayed,
    The mess that they made
    By looking at all that’s around you.

  • I could write another sci-fi scenario for this topic, but doubtless it would be poorly received by the Batters. LOL.

    Meanwhile, until as the Android game PLAGUE! tells you once you have successfully wiped out Humanity “The last of Human Survivors lie dieing in holes”, we have a good deal of Collective Insanity to deal with. Part II now up.

    Part I if you missed it:


  • @Guy re. the radio show. I only listened today in response to your query, and out of curiosity after BelleIslander’s panning of it.

    I could only find the first episode, so these comments only apply to that. Also, I was not able to subscribe via iTunes from the PRN site from my iPod or iPad: the button’s link gave an error message that the page did not exist.

    First off, I hate, hate, hate the theme song. It does sound aggressive and puerile (in contrast with your mature ‘stage’ presence, which is thoughtful and measured). The embedded voice clip of you saying the earth is coming into a new flowering or resurgence or something to that effect does not mesh with what you’ve stated repeatedly elsewhere. Perhaps it is years old? Anyway, I didn’t like the violent-sounding music and the violent “getcha” lyrics. No one is out to “get” anyone in this equation (although fighting amongst people will certainly increase), and I’m also tired of sports metaphors in general, and badly-mixed metaphors always. Nature bats last (baseball) and she’s comin’ out swingin’ (boxing)?

    For the rest of the content, I thought it was OK. If you want to continue with the show, I would recommend consulting with KMO or Seth and Justin of the ExtraEnvironmentalist podcast for advice on simple ways to improve the audio and make it more consistent. I didn’t mind hearing about DGR stuff: it’s one response among many, and more valid than some. I’m not sure if that’s the overall route the show is going to take or not. I hope it’s more varied, but I imagine it will be hard to come up with a lot of varied material on a weekly basis, without it becoming a “job” and not fun anymore.

    Some editing could have taken care of the dropouts in Forrest Palmer’s speech. I think an interview with this person would have been more effective than a harangue.. I think the nature of radio is quite intimate; it’s not the same as standing up and addressing a crowd and getting them fired up.

    I liked very much the reading of comments taken from the Facebook NTHE Support Group, not least because I have been trying to avoid Facebook. I liked the recounting of the person being more reclusive and then feeling nicer and more empathetic on outings in the ‘real’ world. That’s how I feel, too. Much less able to deal with a lot of ongoing stuff, I pick and choose my encounters, and try to experience them fully and in a positive fashion, mindfully, I guess you might say.

    So I hope you keep that sort of segment, or even a “Letters to Guy” that might highlight some of the interesting communications you must have received personally over the last couple of years. You don’t interact much on the blog and forum, so that might be a nice way to have a dialog if the correspondent were willing to share his or her material on-“air”.

    As far as BI’s more general comments, like, “it is simply wrong that he (or his important message) should seemingly have to share the same stage with anyone else”… that’s a tough one. NTE or NTHE takes all the oxygen out of the room. However, stuff is going to happen all along the route between here and there, like the issue with Detroit’s water, and it may well be interesting to follow from the NTHE optic. If it something that interests Guy and his friends I don’t see how it helps to tell them they shouldn’t do it. As many here have noted, there’s no particular advantage to informing people of NTHE: they will perceive it or not based on their own experience and understanding of the science Guy presents, not based on the quality of a podcast that’s going to be followed by a few hundred people. [As long as he doesn’t start talking about crop circles and alien abductions… ;-) ]

    What’s going to be hard is to parse this out on a “justice” level, because none of us have a *right* to clean water and expensive centralized sewage-treatment services.. none of us. This is what is going to be very hard for the left to process: that we’ve passed “peak equality”..”peak justice”… It’s going to be hard for Guy, especially, to abandon ideals he’s been working for in the face of contrary events. The distinctions between haves and have-nots are only going to become more acute, right up until the ultimate distinction between living and dead. There will be pockets of collaboration and solidarity, but they won’t be found within the purview Industrial Civilization and won’t be elicited from the current political and legal systems and societal structures.

    BI: “constantly going off-message”.. Again, I didn’t hear the second show. The message I got from the Australian, Mr. Pennings, was that he planned to work on resistance because even in the worst-case scenario “what else have you got to do?” or words to that effect.

    On another note, if you are interested in seeing and sharing who/where your blog readers are, I believe you could do a post with a poll in it, which could be as simple or detailed as you like. I, for one, would not mind filling it out, although it is bound to miss many of the people who were regulars but have since moved on.

  • I agree with Lidia’s comment about the radio show as I too was only able to catch the first episode. I also like the suggestion someone threw out about potentially including letters written to Dr. M that express sentiments of a more personal nature (if at all possible).

    In general, I hope that later episodes will have less blah blah blah from the guest/s and more input from the hosts.

  • @Lidia

    ‘the nature of radio is quite intimate’

    I make fun of voice tracked DJ’s pretending to talk to you personally and being your friend, by specifically saying I’m not the listener’s friend since I don’t even know them and most importantly they don’t know me.

    addressing a crowd is exactly how I approach it. If you’ve ever seen the movie “escape from new york” there’s a scene where an anonymous prisoner see’s the president being absconded so he tells ‘the duke’ (the man in charge) then when the duke & co take off to go after him, the anon prisoner shouts at the crowd “listen ! the presidents gone, brain took him!”

    this is exactly the way I approach the task of live air talk – speaking anonymously to everyone that can hear.

    statistically the median number of people listening is around 2 dozen but the signals reach potentially 50,000 people, so the actual number of listeners varies from as little as none (in the middle of the night) to several thousand (during a bad storm during the day on the weekend when the power has failed and other stations are off-air)

    Since I could be talking to no one or to thousands of people, and I don’t put any effort at all, don’t provide any way at all, into finding out or getting feedback on the question, I address no one and everyone with the same intent.

    the intent being I don’t want to become a brand, an ‘air personality’ and the stations have no branding either (only a top-of-the-hour generic station ID).

    I normally only play music, so when there is news, especially hard hitting news that people don’t really want to hear, it’s important to maintain separation between the messenger and the message.. brand Guy, brand Mike and brand Derrick presents an attack vector (in fact they already have after only 2 shows)

    while data, measurements and readings have no brand.

    this is not information people want to hear and the most common reaction is to attack the perceived brand (I should know – I attack the corporate radio and corporation brands myself. In fact I attack them for even having brands at all)

    this isn’t necessarily the best advice for the hosts of this show – as the producers it’s up to them to determine how much of a brand they want to have. corporate DJ’s are strongly encouraged (read required) to be on social media, to respond personally to fans, to sell themselves as a brand AND to sell the station brand. “Real radio” (my personal concept) is exact opposite of that – the anonymous person who just happened to be in the right place at the right time doing what common sense compels one to do.

    corporate radio to me is complete garbage across the board from hate talk AM to NPR, and the branding is the dead giveaway for all of it.

    community media without branding is refreshing and has an innate quality of nothing’s for sale – it sets itself apart from everything else on the dial.

    on the issue of climate chaos I prefer a dry reading of just the facts, updated with the latest data. the human empathy angle doesn’t actually interest me

    my preferred discourse is to simply pound the facts into people’s heads and end the show (then go back to playing music). I’ve seen the recent alternative approach Guy’s taken along with Carolyn Baker and although I have no interest in it personally I will air it anyway since – as you’ve expressed – some people prefer that angle, and so it reaches a wider audience.

    in other aired interviews Guy’s used the analogy of the doctor telling you you’re going to die soon from cancer then walking out telling you don’t forget to pay

    – but this information is free

    “the truth is a valuable thing, don’t expect it from cheap people”

    I make a point of mentioning on air that you’re getting free truth rather than paid lies

    I’ll tell you the truth for free, let the paid professional liars make you feel good – that’s what they’re getting paid for

    I don’t see the situation from the same perspective as they do – on air there’s the aspect of setting the station apart from all the rest, plus I just don’t have the time. long term in order to be satisfied enough to keep doing something decade after decade one needs to strike a balance between what one or other’s feel should optimally be said or done and what ends up being satisfying and not too demanding and intrusive to last over the long haul.

    like small businesses radio show hosts tend to become burned out, largely due to the unexpected time & energy it ends up taking and often, due to demands and expectations made by other people.

    for example a show can easily become overly complex with too many concepts and goals vying for the host’s time and energy, so rather than a long term quick update of the facts that stands the test of time, all the extras end up overwhelming the hosts and the show dies an early death

    I’m speaking as a person broadcasting since the mid-70’s – if I allowed myself to be burdened and overwhelmed with excessive production responsibilities I wouldn’t still be broadcasting much less having more than one station. the show hopefully is as divorced for everyone else as possible along with their baggage and complaints

    this is the formula for long term success, I’ve found

    even with just music, there are times, when the mood strikes me, when I’ll even cut what’s being played, and put on something just for the pure personal enjoyment of it – if this didn’t happen, I wouldn’t still be broadcasting after all these years

    I’m set up to keep broadcasting even after the power grid fails (backup power, generator, solar cells, wind turbine) for as long as possible, to be the last remaining signal on the air as TSHTF.

    doomer station indeed

    the only suggestion I have for Guy & Mike is to make damn sure there’s some element of personal satisfaction in the show

    for me it comes down to having the best possible sound quality (CD tracks no mp3’s or mp4’s, broadcast processor optimally set) putting on my best headphones plugged into my best headphone amp & tuner, and listening to exactly what I feel like listening to (usually fusion Jazz) and *knowing anyone else listening is hearing as good of sound as I am* – in essence sharing my hi-fi listening experience..

    news/talk/info comes in a distant second – while it’s ‘fun’ telling people things no one else will tell them, to some extent, what’s really kept me on the air, at least since 1991 (when I got my first stereo transmitter) is the hi-fi listening experience – in other words, goosebumps.

    it’s harder to get goosebumps from just talk (although I have on occasion from hearing something really inspiring) and so the mostly music format has a built-in advantage, you can still achieve satisfaction which when combined with the sense of humanity/common good (this compares to my data service and talk Opus streams on the hybrid station) is enough to keep you going.

    I look to the future and try to picture what the show will be like at the point when the internet fails.

    well folks that makes it the final show, now back to music!

  • Wren, I wasn’t aware that this discussion had since moved from the previous thread where I had placed my comment late last night and then my subsequent response comment this afternoon. For your information I am no way a member of any elite group. Rather, I am now an extremely poor 61 year old crippled man who is presently dying of Parkinson’s disease. But, apparently unlike most persons in this day and age, my lifelong effort to obtain what well be called my own – quite personally fitted religion – would appear to have finally paid off as I am no longer in any way afraid of dying.

    So, perhaps unlike many of you fools (yes, I am still mighty pissed at many members of this site today) I can maybe maintain a level-thinking head for a bit longer than most in the face of many worldly trials or tribulations. Maybe it was indeed such wisdom that caused me to have to finally conclude that there be absolutely nothing which I could ever successfully fight which might subsequently enable me to have my own way amidst this world. Or, to conclude that in the end there be absolutely nothing about the ultimate course of all cosmic events which can actually be said to be in my own hands.

    It has also occurred to me that the very last opportunity that mankind might have had to become far wiser and to possibly turn the course of his civilization around had probably occurred about 2,400 years ago when certain subsequently very powerful social groups had begun to so venomously oppose the very much differing cosmological thinking which had formerly been entertained by the fundamentally-structured atomists of old.

    After that missed opportunity by mankind to possibly pull the scales from his potentially-seeing eyes, it would seem that man was then always going to be fated for ultimate extinction no matter what he did. And, as we can now see, his final extinction from this world would presently seem about to finally come to pass

    But, in any case, man and mankind was always quite destined to prove only a temporarily wrought phenomena amidst the cosmos. So, I can see absolutely no reason why anyone should engage in any otherwise unnecessary amount of strain and strife so as to try to continue to sustain that which has in fact already become quite unsustainable amidst this world. Yes, please indeed note that our world can in no way be subsequently cured of what would presently ails it. Rather, all of those conditions that might have once been able to foster our worldly-lives can only continue to get worse and worse until finally they and this entire ultimately-bounded world should be caused to completely disappear. .

    Yet, a lot of you foolish people seem to entertain the illusion that your having to finally die might be the very worst thing that should ever be caused to happen to you. But, it isn’t. Rather, the very worst thing that should ever happen to you is to that you should be caused to live out the whole of your miserable lives whilst remaining constantly cloaked amidst an otherwise impenetrable web of instinctively imposed fear. Because surely that cannot really be considered ‘living’ at all but might instead only be judged to be constant source of potential discomfort that in many instances might never prove actually healed because finally only you and you – alone – might possibly be able to eventually overcome your own instinctually-imparted fears.

    So please, get up off the floor, all of you presently grief stricken fools. Please get off the damned floor so as to see if you might finally rid yourself of your instinctively imparted fears whilst you might still have few more moments to possibly live amidst this soon to be ended world. Because maybe then you will be able to see that even a single moment lived as a mentally freed potentially-thinking being might indeed be worth far more than all of those other dark and seemingly countless eons when you might have only dwelt in constantly sustained servitude to each and every one of your instinctively imparted fears.

    Thus, in conclusion let me say this: Let it be! Yes, just let it all be like it must always ultimately be. And, then let us see how quite despite all of our presently imagined troubles amidst this world quite everything must still nevertheless prove quite perfectly all right in the end. So, please do stop being afraid of all of those things which you can not actually control. Rather, please try to fearlessly go to wherever it is that fate might seeming take you, because you might also then be pleasantly surprised to learn that the one and only place to which every cosmologically-found thing might be said to finally go would be to that very same perfectly-balanced cosmic-state from whence all must have originally come. And, might such a precisely the same sort of final solution to potentially-existing thing be really said to be in any way bad? I don’t think so.

    In any case, it would seem that every one of the very most important struggles – which we might expect to encounter throughout the rest of our worldly lives – must be fully expected to involve some truly deep mental challenges rather than any usually far more readily accomplished physically-demanding tasks. Finally, only thinking alone and not fighting or warring between ourselves might be utilized so as to substantially improve the conditions which we must all subsequently face.

    Lidia just thoughtfully said:The message I got from the Australian, Mr. Pennings, was that he planned to work on resistance because even in the worst-case scenario “what else have you got to do?” or words to that effect.

    Wouldn’t his remaining time in this world be better spent with his trying to mentally overcome his instinctually-imparted fear of death rather than him merely trying to kill time by fruitlessly striking out against some machine which the authorities of our present global industrial society will never allow anyone to actually stop? Yes, just what are we as society supposed to do in respect to such a seemingly dumb or otherwise unimaginative man? Simply applaud him for making such an apparently heroically looking green draped corpse? In most social circles such a death would more usually characterized as an instance of suicide by means of a cop. Obviously, what such a person such as him might presently most of all need is intensive mental help and not some high-tension power-lines to cut down.

  • @ Belleislander

    You back already ? What a decisive individual you are, how long since you informed us you were gone forever ?

    All this uninvited patronising egocentric rubbish displays what an ignorant foolish self-serving person you are.

    If you had taken the trouble to read and study and think a bit more, then perhaps you might appreciate that some people have come to very different conclusions to the ones that you are so smugly advocating.

    Your cowardly and anthropocentric concern for self-preservation completely misses the fundamental principles upon which DGR, and for that matter, Earth First ! and even relatively moderate organisations like Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth, build their case.

    But obviously, you are a bigotted, fatuous, pompous, self-righteous old fool, who has not thought deeply at all, and all you want to do is a bit of ranting and concern trolling to try and justify the prejudices you hold, to your own satisfaction.

    Well, good luck. You can go away and die in peace. Nobody will care either way, whether you believed this, that, or the other, it won’t make the slightest difference, will it.

  • Hardware:
    How to record your mobile, landline and internet telephone calls

    How to Podcast

    Here is the link to subscribe to the Nature Bats Last podcast:
    haich tee tee pee colon backslash backslash dubya dubya dubya dot naturebatslast dot podbean dot com backslash feed

    Before using Facebook, one would be well advised to remember how Mark Zuckerberg described Facebook users at its inception “dumbfucks”.

  • Woof! Woof!
    Four dogs that ate their vomit and returned to NBL after swearing off this site:

    Martin Knight
    Morocco Bama
    Reverse Engineer

  • ulvfugl, I see that you’re still sounding mentally ill. By the way, how are your terrible splitting head-aches? I do believe that we have previously talked about that. I now realize that the resignation comments I made yesterday afternoon might have mainly been in response to your earlier rude comments to me. But, I have since come to believe that I might still maybe move the needle a little bit towards the way the way I should want to go here.

    And, as for you? I still find you so very tiring. Tiring because seemingly nothing mentioned here might subsequently be approved around here unless it should come from your own big mouth. But, the problem is (as you repeatedly keep demonstrating) is that you really don’t seem to know anything which might actually be termed useful.

    So. please now go see if you might finally solve your perpetually splitting head and leave me alone if you can. Or, does having anyone else on this site who isn’t exactly like you tend to bother you so much that you simply cannot refrain from attacking them at every opportunity?

    BTW, in response to your very last comment to me where you said:

    QUOTE -“You can go away and die in peace. Nobody will care either way, whether you believed this, that, or the other, it won’t make the slightest difference, will it?”

    Well, for once, I have to say, that your assessment of that particular situation would seem to be precisely right. Now, might there be anything else that you might still hope to be able to possibly teach me in respect to the actual ways of this world?

    But, first, maybe you should go rest your undoubtedly presently splitting head before still more boiling hot steam should come spilling out and burning your stinking toes?

  • Robin Datta Says: Woof! Woof!

    Where as ‘he’ or ‘she’ is an always quite incredible asshole who will apparently never go away. Indeed, just how is it actually possible that after trying to read hundreds of your incredibly dense postings here I still can’t figure out whether you’re in fact a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’? Do you even know what the hell you are? I’m sorry but most times I tend to regard your outer spacy comments as being nothing but worthless bits of font!

    re rgure ie nain pikll



    Do Fourth Turnings ever de-intensify?

    Did someone just do something very stupid?

    Is all hell about to break loose?

    Submitted by Tyler Durden on 08/15/2014 10:43 -0400

    It Begins: Ukraine Troops Destroy Part Of “Armed” Russian Convoy

    Things just escalated notably – (Via Bloomberg):

    We await Putin’s response…

    EU & US Stocks and bond yields (and Ruble) are tumbling, gold rising.

    Of course we noted Russia’s “invasion” last night… but stocks didn’t care…

    From Reuters:

    The result… [see graphs of stock market plunging]

    While you’re reading, listen to some (soothing) music


    How the New Monopoly Capitalism Will Crush You to Smithereens

    Something wicked has crept into American society, something that many hoped was left back in the dustbins of the 19th century. We’re talking about monopoly, the ogre that screams capitalism run amok. Monopolies, or near-monopolies, as are most common in America, rise up through a lack of competition. When one or a handful of players dominate the marketplace, get ready for higher prices, low-quality products, and crap wages for you and me.

    Just a few decades ago, this destructive activity would have been illegal. But advocates for small government and faulty market theories successfully drove a complete unraveling of the regulations that used to keep these monsters at bay. The result has been disastrous. Monopolies are back, and they are bigger and nastier than ever.

    You can hardly open a newspaper without reading about a monopolist making a power grab. Some monopolistic industries mess around with your daily life in an obvious way, like Big Telecom bringing you the low-grade misery of shoddy service and defective products. Others fly a bit lower under the radar, like the credit reporting monopolist Fair Isaac Corp, which can blast your financial existence in a nanosecond.

    Monopolists buy politicians a dime a dozen, and they write laws to preserve their power. Yet until recently, few journalists had given this subject an in-depth look.

    [read it all if interested]

  • The Conqueror Worm
    By Edgar Allan Poe

    Lo! ’t is a gala night
    Within the lonesome latter years!
    An angel throng, bewinged, bedight
    In veils, and drowned in tears,
    Sit in a theatre, to see
    A play of hopes and fears,
    While the orchestra breathes fitfully
    The music of the spheres.

    Mimes, in the form of God on high,
    Mutter and mumble low,
    And hither and thither fly—
    Mere puppets they, who come and go
    At bidding of vast formless things
    That shift the scenery to and fro,
    Flapping from out their Condor wings
    Invisible Wo!

    That motley drama—oh, be sure
    It shall not be forgot!
    With its Phantom chased for evermore
    By a crowd that seize it not,
    Through a circle that ever returneth in
    To the self-same spot,
    And much of Madness, and more of Sin,
    And Horror the soul of the plot.

    But see, amid the mimic rout,
    A crawling shape intrude!
    A blood-red thing that writhes from out
    The scenic solitude!
    It writhes!—it writhes!—with mortal pangs
    The mimes become its food,
    And seraphs sob at vermin fangs
    In human gore imbued.

    Out—out are the lights—out all!
    And, over each quivering form,
    The curtain, a funeral pall,
    Comes down with the rush of a storm,
    While the angels, all pallid and wan,
    Uprising, unveiling, affirm
    That the play is the tragedy, “Man,”
    And its hero, the Conqueror Worm.

  • Funny stuff, sealevel person. Although,you might be on the wrong site. You’re probably looking for

  • @ Belleislander

    Well, let’s see, you have shown yourself to be a concern troll, one of the lowest and most despised forms of internet life.

    You have insulted the readership here.

    You have insulted Guy McPherson and Mike Sliwa.

    You have insulted people who suffer from mental illness, in several different contexts,

    You’ve shown the world that you are a weak, unreliable person who cannot be trusted to keep their word even for a few hours.

    You have shown you have no insight or understanding whatsoever as to the philosophical, intellectual, scientific, ethical basis and arguments that surround the DGR platform.

    You’ve insulted the Deep Green Resistance folk, who are amongst the most courageous and honourable people alive, each one of whom has got to be worth a thousand of cowardly ignorant scumbags like yourself.

    You’ve shown you are clueless about Buddhism.

    I could go on, but why waste my time on such a worthless person ?

    And now you are picking a fight with me. Well, I’m always here and available.

    ….might there be anything else that you might still hope to be able to possibly teach me in respect to the actual ways of this world?

    I’m sure there’s much that I could teach you, but it’s not my job, is it, nobody pays me to do this, I offer whatever I have to offer, and speak to the whole world, for free, and if anybody learns anything from anything I say, then that’s up to them, isn’t it, and I am learning new stuff every day, from others.

  • @crazy inventor, thanks for your input about your experiences as a dj. Yes, in certain instances it might be off-putting to act chummy in a fake way. But there is a difference between chummy and intimate. Roosevelt gathered the nation for his fireside chats because of the intimacy of the medium.

    By intimate, I also mean authentic. It is a quality I think you can distinguish. It comes from honest exchanges, like that of Reese Jones and Dr. M.

    I think that is what people are looking for: an honest confronting of the issues. I didn’t mind hearing Forrest, but he was reading off a hortatory script.. Not the same thing.

    One aspect that might be confusing is the combination of “call to action!” plus empathetic bedside manner. Few people are going to respond equally well to both. [Maybe this should be directly addressed on the show: acknowledging that there are going to be different responses, there could be different running segments.. The direct action segment, the prepping segment, the new science segment, the coping segment, the guided meditation segment… Whatever… What I appreciate about podcasts is when they have a consistent structure. If it’s a “magazine” of content then it’s good to have the “shelves” clearly demarcated, as opposed to a monothemed offering.]

    Now that we listen to “the radio” mostly on personal devices, it’s even more intimate. “The voices” are in our heads alone, within our actual living community: not broadcast, but narrowcast.

    The show may or may not turn out to be something Guy continues to enjoy doing, so I say give it a chance and se how it evolves. I mostly agree with what Pauline just wrote in terms of the show, but I still really loathe that awful song.

    Did the second show get taken down, or can someone offer a link to it?

  • As I’ve pointed out before, the second show is linked here. All shows can be found at the tab atop this page cleverly labeled, “Radio Archive.”

  • @ Tom

    One for you

    Is an Airborne Biological Weapons Release Imminent?

    and re the zerohedge link you provided above, I followed up on that for several hours earlier today, it gets quite interesting…

  • Thanks everyone the for comments regarding the show. It’s definitely a work in progress and will evolve over time. Once we become a bit more comfortable I think it’ll be less stiff and more personal. Guests will be hit and miss in quality and popularity. It will not be only about NTHE but rather all things that have guaranteed our extinction and our responses to it as well. That includes individuals resisting, accepting and yes…even marching and gardening. In the end it will come back to climate change and NTE for all species. I am grateful that Guy has decided to take on this challenge when he clearly doesn’t need the grief or accolades if they should ever come. I feel fortunate to be involved and privileged to have a forum during this time in history. Do we need another white heterosexual male voice telling us how it is? Certainly not. That is why I would like to see the show become a collaboration of different voices and perspectives as it develops. We will have set backs due to our reliance on our unreliable wifi at times and because of the obvious learning curve. Let’s see where it goes and have some quality discussions while trying to get there.

    Mike Sliwa aka Privileged

  • Reese — Millions of people have had experiences like yours indicative of a non-material dimension to our existence.

    Scientists, still intent on fighting Medieval superstition and the controls over peoples’ minds imposed by a murderous Churchianity, hew adamantly to a Materialism they hold to be its opposite. A good starting point.

    But it is not Science’s job to fight political battles. It is to explore and explain Reality, to advance “knowledge”. Wherever the Facts may lead.

    A scientific hypothesis is an attempt to explain observed phenomena. A million people, nay, a dozen or so, having the same or similar experience should open up for the curious scientist a hypothesis inviting scientific exploration.

    A scientific Theory (“Gravity”, “Evolution”) is a collection of coherent and well-tested hypotheses that hold together as a larger body of explanation. Non-material dimensions of consciousness should certainly qualify at this point as lying somewhere between Hypothesis and Theory, with the crucial connection to visible and repeatable data still to be made.

    Science does attempt to reproduce, in laboratory or in repeatable experimentation, the outcomes and observations indicated by these hypotheses.

    But the absence of success in manipulating and repeating such phenomena on demand does not negate the hypothesis itself. It merely places it outside the framework of usual scientific experimentation, not conclusive of invalidation, leaving it open to further inquiry and extending the means of experimentation.

    The boundary point that I see between Metaphysics and Materialism is the human brain, which must die eventually, and yet must function as our utmost survival tool while we live in body, harboring all of our memories, beliefs, prejudices. Occasionally, it stands aside to let “something else” through. Science doesn’t like “occasionally”. And humans cannot yet, if ever, transplant their internal experiences to the observer’s point of view.

    (Scientists posit some as yet undiscovered cocktail of brain chemicals to explain experiences like yours, but most are pronouncing outside their areas of expertise, and those who are expert have yet to explain those repeated and nearly identical phenomena.)

    (Or, worse, they call it “wishful thinking”, invoking an amateur Psychology to trump the lack of conclusiveness by their own scientific means. Very shoddy and pejorative science, that. Lets “blame the experimental subject!” Not great for recruiting volunteers or getting informants to come forward.)

    When we have clues that our brain is not “all there is” to our consciousness, we ought to place those clues in reserve for further supplementation. Indeed, the final and full integration of all of our “intimations of immortality” (Wordsworth) may not arrive until those final moments, and afterward.

    That ambiguity with which we must live has a certain ethical justice to it, as in Pascal’s Wager, and scientists should not worry about legislating our ethical impulses via semi-scientific opinionation, or experimental neglect.

    Living a “life of excellence” works well under the outcomes of either Theory, and a lifetime of curiosity can go in many different directions.

    Scientists have a point in challenging the physically-vague nature of Metaphysics. Neither case is proven, and perhaps not “provable”. Scientists who are sincere in their resolve to hold the Scientific Method superior to superstition and its politics must be credited with their advances. Each has its place.

    But the/their Scientific Method does not brook conclusions, by them or anyone else, without conclusive evidence, pro or con.

    A “do not believe in” statement by a scientist reveals an UN-scientific bias, a moment (or lifetime) of quite-human prejudice, perhaps an heroic life spent fighting the dragons of ignorance (think Tracy’s Clarence Darrow in “Inherit the Wind” — OK, that’s a lawyer, but still the same appeal to Logic), understandable but at the same time, unprofessional as a scientist who forgets the necessary basis of Science.

    He goes little-challenged in this because he is leaning on or unconsciously hiding behind, prevailing majority opinion. And yet hasn’t Science made its most significant advances by standing up against exactly those same established views, imposed upon humanity by whatever authority of the time? You know the famous names.

    The very-human inability to patiently hold two contradictory thoughts in mind, suspended in judgment, at the same time. We see it all around us.

  • SeaLevelHysteria Mr Wannabe MikeyMouse Scientist from the trailercourts say no we should be all relieved . Oh god just why in the hell them High level US Military and navy generals along with MR Kerry and New york times are so worried about sea level change haven`t they heard this guy yet ? They also just could let go of all their data and research and US scientists and hire this guy working for Smöröbröd (You know that tastless scentless dried up flatbread made of miserly rye they grow in sweden and have to be raised on it missing essential nutrients for brain development

  • Guy McPherson Says:

    ^ “Yeah. What he said.”

    Okay, Thank-you for listening. I’ll butt out now. Good-luck with your show.^

  • @ Belleislander

    Going again already, Sam ? What a shame. Remember this ? Let me remind you…

    NBL seems to be under attack again. But, maybe that doesn’t presently matter so much because of all of the persons there I always tend to regard you as the most interesting because of your obviously have a very superior intellect.

  • Grant Schreiber says: The Conqueror Worm By Edgar Allan Poe

    The Raven

    I was studying quaint doomer lore
    When some asshole came to my door;
    I was weak, I was weary,
    The midnight was dreary—
    The raven quoth “Nevermore.”

    “Your forgiveness I do implore,”
    Said I, as I opened the door;
    Your faint goddamn rapping
    Woke me up from napping—”
    The raven quoth “Nevermore.”

    That bastard sat over my door,
    And started to shit on the floor;
    “Take thy beak from my heart,
    And don’t even fart!”
    The raven quoth “Nevermore.”

    “Devil or bird, I implore,
    Tell me—tell me some more:
    Are doom’s secrets hid?
    Is there balm in Gilead?”
    The raven quoth “Nevermore.”

    The raven sits over my door,
    And craps on my nice chamber floor;
    That fucker’s still sitting
    And won’t stop from shitting—
    The raven quoth “Nevermore.”

  • If you wanna do your own Podcasts, Audacity is Freeware for doing your recording and editing.

    Soundcloud provides very reasonable hosting ($100/year for the Pro plan) and great stats. You know exactly how many listens you are getting and from where around the globe.


  • “And humans cannot yet, if ever, transplant their internal experiences to the observer’s point of view.”

    That is why it is impossible to know whether or not any of the entities perceived in one’s world-construct is or is not conscious.

    “When we have clues that our brain is not “all there is” to our consciousness,”

    There is no “our” consciousness. Any known is not the Knower. Anything one possesses is not oneself. A book, shoes, a pen, furniture, a home: all these can clearly be perceived as possessions: they are not oneself. Likewise arms & legs, a head, a mind, thoughts – all are perceived and are possessions. The word “consciousness” refers to the concept “consciousness”: this concept is perceived through the mind and is a possession like other concepts, but is not the Knower. There is an consciousness that confers awareness of an awareful “I”, another known which is usually conflated with the Knower.

    “our “intimations of immortality” (Wordsworth) may not arrive until those final moments, and afterward.”

    Anything with a beginning has an ending. Arrival is a beginning and has implicit in it a an ending.

  • Avoid the police nine times more assiduously than you would avoid a terrorist:
    You’re Nine Times More Likely to be Killed by a Police Officer than a Terrorist

  • Grant Schrieber | Belleislander | Henry

    First To All Commenters Who Would Care To Read
    In general, there are so many interesting and entertaining comments here. Wish we could all sit around a huge Japanese firepit, soft mats and pillow in a large circle as the raised floor encircles us all around. There would be steaming pots filled with the most magnificent of oden and all would share shots now and then of the purest, warm sake. The far, sliding doors would be open to a the soft falling of winter show, glistening in the candlelit bonzai garden. We would talk… argue, and then, to end, write the most ethereal of Haiku. In my childhood travels, I think I saw such a thing. It was unforgettable… it was adults being their creative best I could have ever imagined them to be.

    One of my most favorite poems… thank you for posting here such a magnificent remembrance of things cherished and forgotten. What a genius of the English language. He wielded words as the greatest artists entwines himself in the most poignant of violins. He is my favorite poet.

    Hoping you get a chance to read this… I was very sorry to hear of your illness. I too have suffered for the last 4 years, fighting valiantly to regain complete health. It can be quite a terrible thing, and until one goes through such a thing, they have little imagining of it.

    Truly wishing you well, that you find all that you need to come to a good, comfortable and happy place. That is what I would wish.

    Also read your comments about the radio show. There are some points I agree with, and some I disagree with. Personally, I found the show to be quite good, that which I was able to listen to, especially for a first show from two novice, non-professional hosts. Mike Sliwa seems quite well-spoken, and of course I truly am entertained by the silver tongued Dr. McPherson. : )

    But that is my opinion, and I would tend to prefer to respect all opinions, agreeing or disagreeing. That is my nature. The positive of all this is that I have often discovered that the harshest critics can also be our most helpful advisors.

    That is how it has worked out for me. Not that the criticism is even correct; but there are often bits and pieces that can have a good deal of salience.

    Now I do love getting along, but sheepishly rather admit enjoying a tempest or two. But in the end, if you cared to stay, and give opinion and sharings, I think that would be good. But this is not my website, only my posting.

    Welcome, thank you for being here, and I hope everyone can spit fire and then shake afterwards.



    Henry, Yes, yes and YES. Thank you for that, I cannot help but appreciate and agree with almost every word you wrote.

    “The very-human inability to patiently hold two contradictory thoughts in mind, suspended in judgment, at the same time. We see it all around us.”

    Oh I have thought that very same thing! Many of us simply refuse to transcend the opposites, a thing I have always deplored sensibly or non-sensibly.

    Oh yes imho, science today seems really quite limited in what it can and cannot prove. Having done a little research myself, tallied results and presented conclusions as a student, it was quite easy to see that the interpretations could have easily been manipulated by my collection, interpretation and management of the evidence. I rec’d an A, but in my heart of hearts I had learned how to always get A’s and not necessarily deserve them.

    I used to be extraordinarily passionate about science; doesn’t every little girl dream of being a veterinarian/astrophysicist/philosopher/inventor/hairdresser at one time or another? : )

    But these days, science is often imbued with human foible and grand limitations. Again jmho.

    Agree or disagree if one will, but I will forever hold dear The Case of the Midwife Toad.

    I can accept, hold, and fully respect both viewpoints. When we transcend the opposites, all the things that seem to matter so much, don’t anymore. It’s as if truth and reality are as slippery as an well-oiled, peeled grape, co-mingling with non-reality as if it were dark matter and matter engaged in a slowdance, forever in collusion and intertwined until the Universe collapses unto itself.


  • Reese, the goal when you do science should be find ways to prove yourself wrong (falsify), not right (verify). That way you end up with a win-win situation. Trying to make something happen is engineering. Trying to get at a truth of what is really happening is science. I’d agree that 90% of the scientists or more don’t do this.

    Robin, how would the known and the Knower translate to human (or other) consciousness? In other words, how could the known become the Knower? If you look up research on metastable systems in the brain, the argument there are certain networks formed to engage in particular tasks in a dynamic manner. This is a dynamic view of consciousness, where the known can become the Knower and vice versa – the flipping back and forth gives insight about both, if one is talking about one’s mind.

  • Mentions Guy and the rest of you Eco-nazi’s around 2:20

  • 4th video in.

  • “In other words, how could the known become the Knower?”

    The known is “murdha” (insentient) and therefore cannot become the Knower.

    Then there is the question of whether the Knower can know Itself.

    “If you look up research on metastable systems in the brain, the argument there are certain networks formed to engage in particular tasks in a dynamic manner.”

    These too are “murdha” (insentient). One does not need to invoke conscious awareness for any of the functioning of a brain – any brain, neither in “reality” (one’s mental construct of the world), nor in science fiction as in Star Trek.

    “This is a dynamic view of consciousness”

    This is a dynamic view of the functioning of insentient neuronal circuits. Consciousness is not explicable as an emergent phenomenon. The word “consciousness” refers to a mental concept, but even that concept is revealed through conscious awareness, and not vice versa. I would refer you (Ram) to Sankhara’s Drik Drishya Viveka and to the buckets of water Drishtanta in the Taittiriya Upanishad. And if you are so inclined, to the physicist – rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s introductory book on Kabbalah, InnerSpace.

  • Robin, the question of the Knower knowing Itself, is the question of the relationship between the known and the Knower. What is “Itself” here, if not the known? If the Knower even attempts to know Itself, how can “Itself” be insentient?

    As far as “Consciousness is not explicable as an emergent phenomenon”, this is where we must part ways. Not only do I think it is possible, but this is something we humans will demonstrate one day if the species survives long enough.

  • @ Ram Samudrala, Robin Datta

    You are speaking at cross-purposes, because, as I have mentioned before, although the word ‘consciousness’ is identical, as translated from Hindu and Buddhist texts, and used in modern English, and in scientific discourse, the actual CONCEPT that is being talked about, is NOT identical, so Robin Datta misleads everyone, over and over again.

    When an modern scientific anaesthetist, such as Stuart Hameroff uses the words ‘conscious’, ‘unconscious’, ‘consciousness’, he is not using these words as synonyms for the terms that are used, and typically translated by those words, in the ancient Indian sanscrit texts.

    The Western scientists are talking about consciousness as per

    That is quite DIFFERENT to what Datta is talking about. He does not seem to understand that, although I have told him a 100 times, and he tries to force two completely different cultural concepts into the same verbal package, which does not work, it just makes nonsense, confusion and absurdity.

  • The latest post in this space focuses on a question. It’s here.

  • “The Western scientists are talking about consciousness as per

    That is quite DIFFERENT to what Datta is talking about. He does not seem to understand that, although I have told him a 100 times, and he tries to force two completely different cultural concepts into the same verbal package, which does not work, it just makes nonsense, confusion and absurdity.”

    I’m following this argument with interest, while trying to avoid getting involved in any way that might make you go off on ME, old wolf bird.

    When I think of consciousness, it isn’t what the Wiki reference is talking about, I don’t think. But I immediately begin to wonder whether any language construct from the ancients is likely to be well understood by the likes of me, standing in this place far removed from their context. In the same way that I see the ocean as blue, and not as “the wine-dark sea” of Homer.

    I suspect many people of my generation got their understanding of the term “consciousness” via the Timothy Leary route, such as it was. Very direct and easy to understand if you experienced it, but difficult to put into words.

  • Reese — I think Ram S. hit on something that pops into my mind on occasion: I think you should always be able, in science, to make your “opponents” best case against your hypothesis, and vice versa — your opponent should be able to concede what he sees as your strongest points. Then, you can set to work on ironing out what the data you mutually observe might lead to.

    I think what Guy & Co. have done for me in the 2 years here is to re-awaken my sense of participating in Science. I was a little Sputnik jock from around 1957 onward, met astronauts, etc. Then it faded, by the time of the first moonwalk.

    But what we have here, now, is the need to quick-learn a lot of climate science, and not just leave it up to computer models — “oh, it’s just TOO complicated for me!” — so to get in our minds a working model of how all these systems interact, and point toward our eventual loss of habitat. Kinda important, ya think?

    And yet, in this age when people depend more on technology than ever — think they’d stop using their “smartphones” if their preacher told ’em that electricity didn’t exist? — we have a mass science-denial movement, with about 35% of USAmericans clinging to bizarre cultish beliefs, among them climate change denialism.

    Hey, it’s almost adaptive for them — if it’s too late, might as well enjoy going over the cliff with your Sunday best on as all your friends in the congregation smile and nod.

    Science has always been about “What can these few wonks invent for the rest of us uncaring lunkheads to consume? Suckers!” Oh, and if they happen to blow up a few hundred thousand Japanese children and women, no big deal.

    So, the politics around Science has never been thicker, and yet here we are on our mission to clarify and present pure Scientific Theory, on a path to some realized Truth.

    I’m sure they’re willing to shoot many messengers, not just the one.

    Again with Ram’s thought, every so often I look for the flaws, the “how can I be wrong about this, maybe?” case.

    Or, I “hide out” in thoughts of escape, at least through the end of my natural lifespan. But every so often it hits me that I might get trapped, either by geography or time.

    Oh, and I ordered some potassium iodide, and radiation badges, yesterday.

    But, Science, yeah — wouldn’t it be great if Science could give us a happy report at the end? But this time it’s all coming up “Your card has been declined.”

  • “The point is that, whenever we propose a solution to a problem we ought to try as hard as we can to overthrow our solution, rather than defend it. Few of us, unfortunately practice this percept; but other people, fortunately, will supply the criticism for us if we fail to supply it ourselves.” –Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific Discovery

    This is the basis of our blind protein structure prediction contest called CASP which moved a field that had been stagnant for decades since its inception rapidly forward.

    We should have a climate modelling contest – even if it is measured over a 30 year window, it could be evaluated on a yearly basis (1984-2014, 1985-2015, etc.). and then have a conference every few years to get people together to figure out what’s wrong with the models to fix them and make them better and so on. After a few years, data will start to accumulate on which models are performing well in a blind manner and what models perform best over long periods relevant to climate.

  • The NBL shows have been very good but rocky technically, as can be expected. I listen to dozens of radio show/podcasts per week and they range from very professional to someone with a mic and a computer in their basement. Patience and practice and you’ll be pros in no time. You have a great message and a good format, I most like the inclusion of the voices of Lindsay and Forrest.

    As to the comment, specifically regarding DGR members and their participation on the show, I am very happy to hear their voices and commend the program for allowing them to participate with their message.

  • Yes, YES Ram Samudrala and Henry, precisely! Open to all possibilities, including our own fallacies. Rather like debate class; we present an argument, and then we change sides and demolish our own argument. Or, at least, try. Such exercises are oft to leave me not sure of anything with certainty, other than staying indisputably right is rather like trying to hold down a ball of cartilage with a chopstick. : )

  • Poll on the Existence of God

    I dropped a Poll on the Secular Humanist thread on the Diner WRT the Existence or Non-Existence of God. Guests can vote on the Poll, you don’t have to register on the Diner to vote.,3217.0.html

    Here’s the Poll:

    Where does your Belief Structure on the Existence of God fit?

    There is a God, but no rational explanation for God’s Existence

    There is a God, and a rational explanation for God’s Existence can be made

    There is Not a God, but no rational explanation for God’s Non-Existence

    There is Not a God, and a rational explanation can be made for God’s Non-Existence

    God Exists and Does Not Exist at the Same Time

    God Exists most of the time, but sometimes takes Vacations and Does Not Exist while Vacationing

    God Exists if you Believe in God’s Existence, and Does Not Exist if you don’t believe in God’s Existence

    God Existed in the past, but no longer does

    I have No Opinion on the Existence of God


  • .
    just sittin’ on this runaway train, staring out the window, with a cat on my lap.

    The Voluntary Extinction Movement
    Thou shalt not procreate.

    The Church of Euthanasia
    Save the planet, kill yourself.

    Somewhere, there are children eating dirt.

  • .

    From CNN Correspondent Garrick Utley

    NEW YORK (CNN) — As scientists note the arrival of the six billionth human being on the planet, they also are warning that 16 percent of the world’s population is consuming some 80 percent of its natural resources.

    That’s the estimated toll the wealthiest populations on the globe — the United States, Europe and Japan — are taking from the earth’s natural bounty to sustain their way of life.

    In the U.S. alone, says Emily Matthews of the World Resources Institute, every man, woman and child is responsible for the consumption of about 25 tons of raw materials each year.

    Americans, while making up only four percent of the world’s population, operate one third of its automobiles. U.S. citizens consume one quarter of the world’s global energy supply.

    Perhaps a more graphic example is that of the lowly quarter-pound hamburger. To produce just one requires 1.2 pounds of grain to feed the cattle, and 100 gallons of water — part of the hidden cost consumers never see.

  • We will be underground. No problems man. Nbl’ers just don’t get it. We came from the cave and to the cave we shall return. In fact , they have already been built . Nobody is going extinct – one last time – do you want to bet on it ?

  • Thanks all for your thoughts and insight on the
    “obituary of a species”
    Much like all of you, I am processing all this info and
    seeing what comes out of me. In this case, some attempted humor.
    I enjoyed it.
    PS- anyone in Northern Cal or Southern Oregon,
    we are bringing Guy to that area on Sept 23- Oct 5.
    drop me a line.