Abrupt Climate Change: Only Love Remains

The following information is excerpted from the website for the workshop. The website, with considerably more details, can be viewed here. Thanks to Ivey Cone for video production.

***

You’ve come to grips with near-term human extinction. It’s a lonely conclusion, one that interferes with many relationships. You want somebody with whom to discuss the most important topic in the history of our species. It seems most of your friends and family are in denial.

Now what?

In response to numerous requests, Pauline Schneider and I have developed a workshop to address this issue. The workshop follows naturally from my presentations. It’s the logical next step for those interested in pursuing healthy psyches and healthy relationships after concluding the worst.

Ms. Schneider and I began creating the workshop in January 2014. We facilitated various versions of the workshop and came up with a version we believe is quite good. Our current version distills hundreds of hours of scholastic reading, deep introspection, and facilitated practice into an eight-hour workshop.

This is not a grief-recovery workshop. Rather, it is a synthesis of our professional expertise in light of near-term human extinction. It is an active, interactive workshop focused on the topic of living fully in light of evidence pointing toward the near-term loss of habitat for humans on Earth.

If you are interested in hosting a workshop, please send an email message to NatureBatsLast2007@gmail.com. Subject line should state, without quotation marks, “workshop.” An all-volunteer team will step forward to assist with all logistical issues, and we will send a planning packet to the organizers to help streamline their work. The packet will include hosting advice, housekeeping advice, flyers, reading materials, links to reading materials and required viewing, and printable handouts.

Logistics

The workshop is titled, “Abrupt Climate Change: Only Love Remains.” It requires eight hours of time in a group of humans numbering between two and twenty (inclusive). We offer it online and in person, as described below.

A 90-minute session on a weekday evening is followed by a 6.5-hour session the following weekend. We ask that at least one full day pass between the workshop days (e.g., Wednesday and Sunday or Thursday and Saturday, but not Friday and Saturday).

We are strongly committed to offering a workshop that is valuable and valued. As such, we expect participants to be familiar with McPherson’s message. A short video clip and other germane information will be sent sufficiently far in advance for all participants to study the evidence before the workshop commences.

A local host will assume responsibility for securing and filling a venue (which may be a personal home). S/he also will be charged with local marketing and finances.

Biographical Sketches of Facilitators

Guy McPherson is professor emeritus of natural resources and the environment at the University of Arizona, where he taught and conducted research for twenty award-winning years. His scholarly work, which has for many years focused on conservation of biological diversity, has produced a dozen books and hundreds of articles.

Guy developed a comprehensive set of durable living arrangements in response to the ongoing collapse of the industrial economy and global climate change. He shares property in a rural area developed specifically to provide abundant supplies of food and water as well as maintaining comfortable body temperature in the absence of fossil fuels.

Because the topics of his presentations sometimes induce despair, Guy became a certified grief-recovery specialist in January 2014. The certification came from The Grief Recovery Institute.

Pauline Schneider, nee Panagiotou, was born in Nigeria and moved to Flushing Queens as a toddler, then back to Nigeria for only two years until her family was forced to leave due to the Biafra war. She was then raised in Greece until the age of 15, by which time she was fluent in Greek. At the age of 15 she moved to Texas with her parents and three younger siblings. She received her Associate Applied Science degree in Radio TV Production, and moved to Los Angeles where she met her future husband and father of her three children while working at Dream Quest. They raised their family in New York where she studied art and film at SUNY Purchase. She received her Bachelors degree in Sociology and Anthropology, Magna Cum Laude at Pace University and went on to receive her Master of Education in Social Studies with a focus on Special Education and Visual Arts, with honors.

Always interested in social justice and in protecting the environment as the home for human and non-human children, Pauline has been an activist for several decades. From 2011 to 2014 she was a core, organizing member of Transition Westchester Hub. In 2014 she completed her first feature documentary, Going Dark, a 30-minute film based on the work of Dr. Guy R. McPherson who lectures on abrupt climate change and near-term human extinction. In 1993 Pauline created a 10-minute documentary film at the State University of New York-Purchase, about a local fight to prevent the Department of Environmental Conservation from installing a toxic waste incinerator on the Hudson River.

An avid gardener, in 2005 she received certification from the New York Botanical Gardens in Landscape Design. Pauline is also a certified facilitator in Alternatives to Violence Project, a certified specialist in the Grief Recovery Method and holds New York state education certifications in Visual Arts, Social Studies, and Special Education.

One man’s journey through near-term human extinction is portrayed via film. David Gwilym created the two video clips embedded below and generously shared them.

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I was quoted favorably in yesterday’s edition of a newspaper in New Zealand. Catch it here.

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Catch Nature Bats Last on the radio with Mike Sliwa and Guy McPherson. To catch us live, tune in every Tuesday at 3:00 p.m. Eastern time, or catch up in the archives here. If you prefer the iTunes version, including the option to subscribe, you can click here.

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Please visit the DONATIONS tab. I’m open to non-monetary donations, subject only to your creativity. For example, I would appreciate your generosity with respect to frequent-flyer miles.

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McPherson’s latest book is co-authored by Carolyn Baker. Extinction Dialogs: How to Live with Death in Mind is available. Electronic copy is available here from Amazon.

Tech note, courtesy of mo flow: Random issues have been appearing with posting comments. Sometimes a “Submit Comment” click will return a 404 Page Not Found, or another error, for no apparent reason. To ensure you don’t lose a longer comment, you can right-click select all, and right-click copy, in the comment box before clicking “Submit.” If that hasn’t been done, the comment text will likely still be in the comment box when clicking the back button, or the forward button — depending on the error — on your browser.

Comments 97

  • Good grief! Get in on this ground floor opportunity. The doomer business is ready to go exponential, like everything else apparently. Take a look at these awesome before-and-after photos put out by that zionist-nazi jive ass mutherfucker over at Business Insider.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-show-how-climate-change-is-reshaping-earth-2015-5#snow-melt-on-matterhorn-mountain-switzerland-august-1960-vs-august-2005-1

    Then, find out why Climate Change Is For Pussies.
    http://www.reddit.com/r/climate/comments/36tbh8/climate_change_is_for_pussies/

  • Ah, at last, a tip of the justice spear has appeared. The Irish have legalized same sex marriage! Catholics no less!

    Maybe NTHE will produce many more such soul searching phenomena before the end.

    We awake too late.

  • Out of Africa
    In the early years of the 20th century millions of black folks in the Congo were murdered for control of the rubber tree plantations that were needed to make car tires. Cars were the latest greatest thing. If you tell a 50 year old man he has to give up his car to save life on earth, he’ll tell you to go to hell.

    In the early years of the 21st century millions of black folks in the Congo were murdered for control of the exotic minerals our smartphones need to work properly. Smartphones are the latest greatest thing. If you tell a 20 year old they have to give up their smartphones to save life on earth, they will tell you to go to hell.

    When checking out the population charts, be sure to slide your mouse over the lines on the chart.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/16/the-amazing-surprising-africa-driven-demographic-future-of-the-earth-in-9-charts/

  • “in just 10 years from now, 66% of humanity, or roughly 4-5 billion people, will be short of fresh water, with nearly 2 billion people being severely short of fresh water.”

    I love comments like this. As if between now and then everything will be cool but once we hit the 10 year mark…click!…there won’t be enough. BS!!!!

    There is not enough NOW!
    We are not able to feed the current population NOW!!!
    People (oh yah and all those other things that happen to live on OUR world) are dying off at an ever increasing rate NOW!!

    It’s all happening NOW. Stop with the “in 10 years – in 20 years – by the middle of the century – this century – this decade” BS BS BS BS.

  • I totally agree Jef. All this carbon budget talk is complete bullshit.

    Fun With Numbers
    —————-
    Dave Roberts left Grist for Vox, where he wrote this piece about how we will need half a billion hectares of new farmland to suck carbon out of the air in order for us to stay below 2 degrees. (The only problem with this happy fantasy is that we are losing farmland at twice the rate we need to grow it.)

    His reward for this effort was to be taken out to the woodshed for a good whipping by his media cohorts, guys like Joe Romm of Climate Regress. He has since recanted and backtracked, injecting a little hopium in his work, albeit, after being waterboarded and signing a confession. Thank god for refereed journalism.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/5/15/8612113/truth-climate-change

  • In the third video (lowest from the top) you emphasize & print out a simple, terse, & profound statement;

    “The greatest challenge in life is discovering who you are … the second greatest is being happy with what you find.”

    I can honestly say that I am more than content with what I find now.

    Although I’ve posted Ware before, Bonnie Ware’s terse words of empirical wisdom are almost identical & equally profound.

    They are sound confirmation of your terse words.

    Ware’s research, however, painfully demonstrates how many of us ended up NOT being happy with what we find as we look back.

    I observe such expressed unhappiness all too often.

    After 75 years I am so fortunate to be very content with what I did with my life.

    Sure, I suffered plenty of slings & arrows – didn’t we all?

    Sure, I have some regrets – mostly personal, petty, & stupid mistakes.

    BUT, I always lived in the present & jettisoned status, money getting, career, fashion, bureaucracy, academic fraud, double talk, & fears of old age & death.

    I literally did it all, & I had a great life.

    I even spent some of my precious youth playing out my personal version of Jack Kerouac’s “On the Road.”

    Putting all that CO2 into the atmosphere is a BIG regretful bummer.

    The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam directed me.

    I took the cash & let the credit go.

    I awoke early, & ran with it.

    I lived my allotted days dedicated to experiential learning & detached scholarship.

    I made enough money to give me the freedom to live passionately & read voraciously.

    I am so happy now that I did what I did when I did it.

    Although I didn’t know that I was doing it at the time, I chose Ware’s axioms as positive direction; especially 1, 3, & 5.

    Looking back, I never failed with 1 & 3.

    My so-called feelings came through my cultivated intellect.

    Living an honest & truthful life in a culture filled with lying & deceit is my greatest source of strength & contentment now, especially in these ugly end times.

    I lived life fully when I had the chance, & I was very lucky.

    Facing death is not frightening for me – at least not yet.

    The painful truth that much mammalian life, especially elephants, is surely going extinct devastates me.

    I hope that I can take comfort from Darwin’s last words; “I am not at all afraid to die.”

    My greatest failure is not being able to help my daughter & two beautiful grandchildren have as good or as long a life as I had.

    Bonnie Ware’s wisdom, again;

    Five Top Regrets People Have At the End of Their Lives

    A palliative nurse has recorded the top five regrets of the dying.
    February 15, 2013

    Bronnie Ware is an Australian nurse who spent several years working in palliative care, caring for patients in the last 12 weeks of their lives. She recorded their dying epiphanies in a blog called Inspiration and Chai, which gathered so much attention that she put her observations into a book called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying.

    Ware writes of the phenomenal clarity of vision that people gain at the end of their lives, and how we might learn from their wisdom.

    “When questioned about any regrets they had or anything they would do differently,” she says, “common themes surfaced again and again.”

    Here are the top five regrets of the dying, as witnessed by Ware:

    1. I wish I’d had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.

    “This was the most common regret of all. When people realise that their life is almost over and look back clearly on it, it is easy to see how many dreams have gone unfulfilled. Most people had not honoured even a half of their dreams and had to die knowing that it was due to choices they had made, or not made. Health brings a freedom very few realise, until they no longer have it.”

    2. I wish I hadn’t worked so hard.

    “This came from every male patient that I nursed. They missed their children’s youth and their partner’s companionship. Women also spoke of this regret, but as most were from an older generation, many of the female patients had not been breadwinners. All of the men I nursed deeply regretted spending so much of their lives on the treadmill of a work existence.”

    3. I wish I’d had the courage to express my feelings.

    “Many people suppressed their feelings in order to keep peace with others. As a result, they settled for a mediocre existence and never became who they were truly capable of becoming. Many developed illnesses relating to the bitterness and resentment they carried as a result.”

    4. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.

    “Often they would not truly realise the full benefits of old friends until their dying weeks and it was not always possible to track them down. Many had become so caught up in their own lives that they had let golden friendships slip by over the years. There were many deep regrets about not giving friendships the time and effort that they deserved. Everyone misses their friends when they are dying.”

    5. I wish that I had let myself be happier.

    “This is a surprisingly common one. Many did not realise until the end that happiness is a choice. They had stayed stuck in old patterns and habits. The so-called ‘comfort’ of familiarity overflowed into their emotions, as well as their physical lives. Fear of change had them pretending to others, and to their selves, that they were content, when deep within, they longed to laugh properly and have silliness in their life again.”

  • It seems lake mead is down 8 feet in two days.

    http://lakemead.water-data.com/

    1.65 FEET Friday, 6.38 FEET yesterday.

  • RE: Lake Mead

    Assuming the sudden drop is real, I wonder if the quake two days ago opened up underground some crack? The tub appears to be rapidly draining.

  • HOLY SHIT. Six plus feet in one day. Catastrophe as we watch.

  • http://earth.nullschool.net/

    look at this little pearl and give up

  • Are we going to give up on all that is so beutiful, it dooesent matter that we might not prevail

  • Put the boot in, as we say in England

  • Who is suggesting we give up, Martin? Besides you, I mean.

  • Did Lovelock? did sheldrake? Your a good man, i like you but i refuse to go quietly into the night. we need too awaken the world or die trying

  • I could be wrong, but I believe the six foot drop at Lake Mead is an error. I check Lake Mead levels on this website;

    http://mead.uslakes.info/Level.asp

    Current level is 1,077 feet. Still, it’s down five feet (from 1,082 feet) from a month ago.

    Considering buying property in Vegas? I don’t recommend it.

  • I cannot get ANY updates on the bizarre loss of 8 feet of water level from Lake Mead in just two days.

    Less than one month ago the 1080.level was considered max.

    A level of 1068 is catastrophic.

    It could not be a conscious drawdown, especially with Memorial Day recreation on the Lake.

    I cannot fathom how this is happening.

    There was a low mag earthquake recently, so the hypothesis that a crack developed in basin is plausible.

    It appears that the drawdown was definitely NOT because of opening any newly built outflows.

    Outflow data doesn’t account for the dramatic loss.

    The cracked basin hypothesis is alarmingly eerie, & if true, it is a true Gotterdammurung.

  • Seems others are saying its an error as well on other sites discussing it. But how such an error goes for 2 days is odd.

  • i could be wrong but are we talking about an Eocene event?

  • Lake Mead data base site; http://lakemead.water-data.com/

    This site claims 1068.75 for Sunday May 24th – a drop of 6 plus ft in one day.

    I surely hope that it’s an error.

  • “Teach me how to cycle
    And I’ll teach you how to glide,”
    Said the heron to Rosanna
    By the sunny waterside.

    Impossible, impossible,
    But wait, look over there:
    The heron on the saddle
    And Rosanna in the air.

  • i’ll have a look at your lake

  • Obviously i dont know what i’m talking about, sorry

  • Lake Mead went up 10 feet in 2 hours as drain clogs up. I just saw Tomorrowland, where Disney explains to kids that the end of civilization will occur only if you feed the wrong wolf, don’t daydream and drive a Cadillac
    drinking lots of Coke.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1964418/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

  • Guy, could you please translate the American idiom ‘How will you show up?’ into standard English.

    In the English English I grew up with, and in NZ English, to show up means to arrive as expected, and to not show up means to fail to attend. So to ask by what means you fail to attend does not make sense to us.

    We assume you mean ‘How will you perform [as a human]?’ or something similar.

    Thanks in advance for clarification.

  • Robert.

    Well, if Hollywood says so, it must be true. We all know that careful arrangement of kitchen utensil enables adolescents to travel through time, and home computers in the hands of teenagers will defeat almost anyone.

    John Key was in town recently promoting fantasies to adults, and suggested to those on the sinking Titanic that the hole in th3e hull would fix itself and we would soon be back to a ‘better brighter future (previous National Party slogan) via faster Internet, research (not sure into what) and better roads (in a post peak oil world which is about to fall off the cliff).

    Apparently the concept of ‘a better brighter future’ has been replaced with the concept of ‘a very large summer’, whatever that is.

    ‘Prime Minister John Key was in New Plymouth on Sunday to address National Party members at the weekend’s Central North Island Regional conference.

    Prime Minister John Key is confident Taranaki’s economy will bounce back quickly from the twin effects of the low dairy payout forecast and the subdued price of oil.

    Key was in New Plymouth on Sunday at the closing of the two day Central North Island Regional National Party conference.

    Following his address the Prime Minister said Taranaki’s economy was obviously coming out of the “bubbling highs” it had experienced in the last few years but the dip in fortunes would be temporary.

    “You have oil prices that are subdued at the moment and I think overall they are likely to rebound. Maybe not to the level they were because of fracking in the US, but we still have a very large summer [of exploration]. I think the biggest summer on record is likely to occur, in terms of new exploration. There are still a lot of people wanting to come down to New Zealand,” he said.

    “The second thing is, yep, dairy prices are off and that has a big impact here. There is no getting away from that. But dairy prices won’t stay down for long. Overall that wave of demand in Asia is reflecting a much greater demand in protein. I believe you will see that reflected in higher prices over time.”

    Key said the regions had got “quite a lot” out of last week’s budget, such as the extension of the ultra fast broadband project, the commitment of $25 million to regional research facilities and money to the regional roading initiative.’

  • Kevin, you are correct in your assumption. To “show up” is vernacular for performing.

  • @kevin moore

    … promoting fantasies to adults, and suggested to those on the sinking Titanic that the hole in th3e hull would fix itself and we would soon be back to a ‘better brighter future (previous National Party slogan) via faster Internet, research (not sure into what) and better roads (in a post peak oil world which is about to fall off the cliff).

    Capitalism asserts that the egoism of the individual leads to prosperity for everyone (trickle down “theory” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics )- wich is simply a comfortable lie. Capitalism is a snowball system based upon greed and exploitation, it is the “musical chairs” game, in the end nobody will remain:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_chairs

    Did you know that there are still native communities out there who don’t even have a name for such thing like “possession”? What do we really possess in the end? Nothing. Well, that’s more than fine with free, happy me 🙂

  • Pardon third comment but this is important:

    Jeffrey Long ‎@jeffreyneillong

    Lake Mead Water Loss data is accurate! http://fb.me/trKnZN6q

    Lake Mead
    ✔ ‎@LakeMeadNRA
    @jeffreyneillong This information is not accurate. The website had incorrect data this morning.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-24/lake-mead-water-level-mysteriously-plunges-after-nevada-quake

  • Please note that the above posted presentation (The Choice) is unusual in that THE EXPONENTIAL GROWTH in temperature (climate change) IS QUANTIFIED rather than used as logical argument.

    Using decades of temperature data, a 100 fold increase in extreme temperature is shown.

    Said another way, as the probability distribution of temperatures shift to the right with each passing decade, temerature extremes ocurring today would have ocurred only once in ~10,000,000 back in the 1950s to 1980s.

    The link again…
    The Choice Part 1

  • Mendacious maniacs in charge:

  • DOOMER PARADISE

    So I think that I’ll move to Belize
    And support the nice local police.
    It’s a nice place to stay
    If you can’t stand “teh gay”
    And are looking for sunshine and peace.

    http://goo.gl/0VEY5p

  • The Human Extinction Survey: The 300

    The survey has now accumulated 300 submissions.  If you have not yet contributed to the survey, it is still open for submissions.

    RE

  • Guy McPherson said, “Who is suggesting we give up, Martin? Besides you, I mean.”

    Well, I am suggesting that, actually.

    There are plenty of more interesting things to do with life than trying to extend it out of fear of dying, or waking other people up just to share the misery.

    We’re already dead. So get on with living.

  • Looks like nuke bombs are being used now in Yemen (suggested culprit: Israel)

    Saudis Have ‘Israel’ Nuke Yemen for Them
    Neutron bomb dropped by IAF plane with Saudi markings…

    http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2015/05/a-neutron-bomb-dropped-on-yemen-by-iaf.html

    Veterans Today website posted a report, prepared by Gordon Duff and Jeff Smith [Jeff Smith is a nuclear physicist and former IAEA inspector], on the bomb which fell on Naqm mountain in Yemen last week.

    A video received from Yemen, believed to be taken May 20, 2015, of an explosion, when analyzed by nuclear weapons experts is, by very high probability, a neutron bomb that could only have been an Israeli attack.

    [ends with]

    This is now the second known use of nukes in Yemen by Saudi Arabia

  • Humans “boil in their own skins” at 48 degrees Celsius – 500 dead in India
    India heat wave 2015 with 48C in Telangana’s Khammam + 6C above normal

    http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2015/05/indias-heatwave.html

    [quote]

    Medical experts said long exposure to extreme heat raises human body temperature to such levels that protein cells start to “boil like egg whites”, a case of internal combustion that eventually shuts down the brain.

    [for those of us not familiar with the centigrade scale, 48 Celsius = 118.4 Degree Fahrenheit]

  • Guy McPherson said, “Who is suggesting we give up, Martin? Besides you, I mean.”

    Paul Chefurka: Well, I am suggesting that, actually.

    There are plenty of more interesting things to do with life than trying to extend it out of fear of dying, or waking other people up just to share the misery.

    We’re already dead. So get on with living.

    >>>

    Misery loves company, Paul. But you already knew that.

    Such is the nature of human egotism…what Buddha called “the builder of this house of suffering”.

  • Why Tomorrowland Never Comes
    Chris Hedges says hope is hopeless, while openly hoping for radical action.
    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/our_mania_for_hope_is_a_curse_20150524

  • The AMEG Website at ameg.me is down for at least a week now… any idea, why? Will it come back?

  • … and what about the AMEG plan to “cool” the arctic as it has been said in their press conference in Lima Dec, 2014 (at 16:55 in the vid)?

    Sounds rather megalomaniacal, doesn’t it?… “cool” the artcic, muhahaha 🙂

  • May AMEG got the $$$ to go covertly de facto fiat on us.

    Terrorizing Pastoral Permaculturalists
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/3777s9/too_many_people_living_off_the_land/

  • To Curious

    may i suggest pissing into the wind will not stop mass extinction.

  • @Robert Callaghan

    About the “overpopulation” topic: It’s about just global distribution. A fair global distribution would lower the global population drastically. Big problem, simple solution.

    may i suggest pissing into the wind will not stop mass extinction.

    Hahaha, good point. Any geoengineering method makes no sense at all, as long as there is no real global paradigm shift. At present it’s all about growth, money, control, not really survival.

  • .
    How will I show up during humanity’s final chapter?

    Like this…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sOk2DVp5Hs

  • … but they are trying SRM, aren’t they? They are into the technofix-business for too long, technique is their (godlike?) miracle wappon of choice, always. The oil junkies want to control everything with technique. ” Climate change caused by CO2? Well then, let’s do some technofix and just go on with BAU !” They will try anything to preserve the Staus Quo 🙂 Let them try, the bill is underway already.

  • Well, Lake Mead has apparently gained all the water back with a little extra. Maybe the quake shook up their transponder.

  • 1. Raising Goats is interesting and fun but if u notice they are just another animal LIKE clever homo. If I cut down a great, delicious, leafy branch for them to feed on, they are occupied as long as I do not cut another one too quickly. If I trim one and then about 3 seconds later, trim another, they leave the first one never to go back, in an instant, for something better. This is a group effect also. The entire herd will bolt at the second branch cutting.

    2. Today I was listening to the radio and heard: “Only one per cent of the American population is in the armed forces.” Interesting, I said to myself that 1% have everything and use 1% to enforce their hatred of all the rest of us 98% in this world.

  • …” well strike another match, girl, go start anew…”

    Some time ago I postet a graph made by “Sam Carana” on another science blog, the answer was the same as usually, “Caranas graphs don’t fit scientific standards”. It was a graph showing a clear correlation of CO2, temperature and methane…

    Now I found the following video with Jason Box at Economist Arctic Summit 2015 and he shows a correlation of CO2, nitrous oxide and methane at 03:11:

    Watch out for the blue line (methane) and the red line (CO2), they correlate perfectly with eachother, don’t they?

  • Curious @ “About the “overpopulation” topic: It’s about just global distribution. A fair global distribution would lower the global population drastically. Big problem, simple solution.”

    Are you fucking kidding me? How are you going to ‘sprinkle’ excess humans into ‘unpopulated’ areas? If a local population had enough sense not to overshoot, why should they be punished by having excess population dropped on them?

    For those who continue to think that overpopulation is no problem, I always wonder at what point (if ever) that they would draw the line and admit that, yes, it is a problem. The root of this speciest and fatal mindset is one that values human life above all other life forms, a world view that is so ’20th century’.

  • How will I show up during humanity’s final chapter?

    As a lying, adulterous hypocrite.

    Because that’s just how I roll.

    http://goo.gl/cGmNb

  • Four more months of waiting (or frantic preparation). We will know so much more at the end of September.

    Meanwhile:

    What Exactly Is Going On At Lake Mead?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-25/what-exactly-going-lake-mead

  • Wren,
    The human population number is not a problem, but it all depends on how that population lives of the planet. No one will argue that if there were no people alive that the Earth’s ecosystem would be better off. And so it is agreed that no human is better for the Earth’s environments than 7 billion. But that also applies for other species as well. No elephants trample less grass than a million elephants, and if there were no members of any species there would probably be members of other species that would take their places.

    So no humans will necessarily be less of a problem than 7 billion. On the other hand, 4 billion people who barely eke out a living, don’t drive an automobile, don’t pay rent, live in a shack and don’t travel on planes to go on vacations will pollute much less, but not nearly as much as a star athlete plying his/her trade, buying 5 cars and live in two mansions thousands of miles apart. Now multiply the athletes by the so-called middle-class of humanity, say 1 billion for the sake of argument. Now if the 4 billion poor in the poorest class suddenly disappeared, the amount of airplanes polluting the air or cruise ships polluting the seas would remain unchanged. If the top billion however suddenly vanished, no planes would fly, no cruise ships, no automobiles would consume fossil fuels… etc.

    In essence, if you follow my drift, you may admit that the lower 4 billion represent less of a challenge for the environment than the top one billion, or two billion if you want to include those who are not in the middle class but yet pay rents, live in houses owned by the rich… etc. etc.

    On another tangent an angry commander in charge of a nuclear sub and who has the power to fire his nuclear missiles is more dangerous to the biosphere than the 4 billion people I pointed out above, because those 4 billion can’t fire missiles, can’t kill anything because they don’t have anything to kill others with. So who is more dangerous? One psychotic general or 4 billion people existing on fumes?

    But then we are indeed stuck with 7 billion people, and counting, so getting rid of a few billion will be hard to do, especially if they don’t volunteer to go on a Hari-Kari non-return adventure, and so, other than a mass Houdini act volunteering program by the wealthier members of our species, we are pretty well set for the next few decades, providing of course we still have a few decades of time before the hammer comes crashing down on all of us, if it does.

    And so if you’re still with me and haven’t yet started showering me with nice compliments, we can move to other more interesting venues by which we could change the things that need to be changed and live according to the Earth’s environmental conditions, as in using our smarts to drive our solar powered electric cars in the daytime, invent, invent, and invent. That’s what we’re good at doing anyway, if we’re not making wars and competing against each other to live on the planet. No refugees because there are no passports, no limits to where one can go, but limits to how much pollution one can inflict on the planet, sort of a carbon-tax etc…etc..

    Now your question “Are you fucking kidding?”: can maybe be asked a little differently. But without going into this any more deeply or thoughtfully than a mere stab at what could be done, there are people who have estimated that the human population could be much larger than it is at present, but the same people have also pointed out that we would need 2 or 3 more planets if we continue to live as we do now. So it’s not our collective number that is the problem, but how that number lives.

  • “Then what is the answer? Not to be deluded by dreams.
    To know that great civilisations have broken down into violence,
    and their tyrants come, many times before.
    When open violence appears, to avoid it with honor or choose
    the least ugly faction; these evils are essential.
    To keep one’s own integrity, be merciful and uncorrupted
    and not wish for evil; and not be duped
    By dreams of universal justice or happiness. These dreams will
    not be fulfilled.
    To know this, and know that however ugly the parts appear
    the whole remains beautiful. A severed hand
    Is an ugly thing and man dissevered from the earth and stars
    and his history … for contemplation or in fact …
    Often appears atrociously ugly. Integrity is wholeness,
    the greatest beauty is
    Organic wholeness, the wholeness of life and things, the divine beauty
    of the universe. Love that, not man
    Apart from that, or else you will share man’s pitiful confusions,
    or drown in despair when his days darken.”

    Robinson Jeffers, 1935

  • @Wren

    Are you fucking kidding me?… For those who continue to think that overpopulation is no problem, I always wonder at what point (if ever) that they would draw the line and admit that, yes, it is a problem.

    Everybody can be fed on this planet, the western “civilization” wastes food millions and millions tons of food to the garbage just for profit, while 1 billion people are starving. The more starving people, the more children. The cause of the “overpopulation” is the unjust distribution of goods and the religious catholic/islamic preaching to not contracept pregnancy in the so called 3rd or 2nd world countries. The poorer the people are, the more chidren they get, it’s their old-age pension. Meanwhile the people in the rich countries are getting less and less children, they grow older and older.

    Without doubt, most hungry people live in Asia, Africa, and Latin America, where populations have grown fastest in recent decades. This association of hunger and rapid population growth certainly suggests a relationship between the two. But what we want to probe is the nature of that link. Does rapid population growth cause hunger, or do they occur together because they are both consequences of similar social realities?

    In 1989 Cornell University sociologists Frederick Buttel and Laura Raynolds published a careful study of population growth, food consumption, and other variables in ninety-three third world countries.20 Their statistical analysis found no evidence that rapid population growth causes hunger. What they did find was that the populations of poorer countries, and those countries where the poorest 20 percent of the population earned a smaller percentage of a nation’s total income, had less to eat. In other words, poverty and inequality cause hunger.

    Buttel and Raynolds did not explicitly look for the causes of high population-growth rates. However, University of Michigan ecologist John Vandermeer conducted a follow-up study using 1994 data that explicitly asked that question.21 He found that inequality and poverty were the key factors driving rapid growth as well.

    http://www.globalissues.org/article/205/does-overpopulation-cause-hunger

    But anyway, if we all go extinct in 15 years, “overpopulation” doesn’t matter anymore anyway, does it?

  • The population ‘debate’ is utter nonsense, of course, because 90+% of the populations of the following countries are dependent on food being generated and transported via the use of copious quantities of rapidly-depleting fossil fuels.

    USA 321m
    Russia 146m
    Japan 127m
    Germany 81m
    France 66m
    Disunited UK 65m
    Italy 61m
    South Korea 51m
    Spain 46m
    Argentina 43m
    Canada 36m
    Saudi Arabia 32m
    North Korea 25m
    Australia 24m
    Taiwan 24m
    Netherlands 17m
    Belgium 11m
    Czech Republic 11m
    Portugal 10m
    UEA 10m
    Austria 9m
    Israel 8m
    Hong Kong 7m
    Denmark 6m
    Finland 5m
    Singapore 5m
    Slovakia 5m
    Norway 5m
    Ireland 5m
    New Zealand 5m
    etc.

    It’s hard to pinpoint with accuracy but it would be reasonable to say that in the following countries the degree of dependence on food generated and delivered via fossil fuels is between 50% and 90%.

    China 1,370m
    India 1,272m
    Indonesia 255m
    Brazil 204m
    Pakistan 190m
    Nigeria 184m
    Bangladesh 158m
    Mexico 121m
    Philippines 101m
    Vietnam 91m
    Ethiopia 90m
    Egypt 89m
    Iran 78m
    Turkey 78m
    Thailand 65m
    Ukraine 43m
    Poland 38m
    etc.

    It becomes rather conjectural from here with respect to degree of fossil fuel dependency, but the numbers are still staggering.

    Congo 71m
    Burma (Myanmar) 51mColombia 48m
    Tanzania 47m
    Kenya 47m
    Algeria 40m

    Of particular note is the fact that human population levelled off in the region of 800m prior to large amounts of food being shifted from one place to another, and it was only the production and transport of food via the use of fossil fuels that facilitated the explosion of population witnessed after industrialism.

    One of the most fascinating cases concerns Japan, which maintained a stable population of around 30m during the Edo period, when it virtually isolated itself and was close to 100% self-sufficient. Of course the seas that allowed that population to be maintained have been well stripped of life over the past century, and are now heavily contaminated with all the usual suspects, plus several unusual ones, suggesting that even without abrupt climate change the Japanese islands could only support 10% to 20% of the current population.

  • Where is Al Gore? Tazmania?

    What is his take so long ago from when he announced there was an inconvenient truth.

    He could be running around now saying I told u so and being the big cheese again.

  • Absolutely, way cool!

    Arrived home this PM from a week in Yellowstone, followed by a week at Rocky Mountain National Park. Almost no access to the web but I tried awfully hard to keep up with NTE. Somehow I was occasionally able to link the wi fi at The Yellowstone Inn without paying the fee. I could also reach the web when in the village of Grand Lake, CO. I was frustrated because I couldn’t post anything, the numbers thingie you have to perform prior to submitting wouldn’t show up on my smart phone. Also had wi fi in airports.

    We saw bears, buffalo, elk, moose, pronghorns, mule deer, badger, fox, lots of fabulous birds including the Mountain Bluebird and hummingbirds and all kinds of cool rodents large and small.

    I almost froze to death waiting to see Grand Geyser erupt but was successful due to a dedicated crew of geyser junkies who kept encouraging me to stick around.

    I read a lot of strikingly profound posts. Posts by Wren, mike k and Lidia are recalled as most satisfying to my psyche. Being pummeled by such reality feels best at the threshold of pain, if you can handle it. I can. I can’t think of anything any culture based on civilization has accomplished that can offset the magnitude of unnecessary pain inflicted. People with a sentimental attachment to human culture make me sick.

    But the post that set my soul on fire with firecrackers popping before my eyes was the one by Into Destiny! It was one of the most realistic depictions of the soul of man that I’ve ever seen. I’ll paste it here in case anyone missed it. But first, let me say here, again, that I would gladly see the extinction of all life on earth, even if it was the only life possible in the Universe, if it would mean the extinction of humanity. THAT IS the only conclusion that anyone with more than an ounce of empathy can have!

    Anyway, here’s Into Destiny’s work (proudly resubmitted by me):

    “Humanity functions like a cancer. It has all the behavioral traits of one; used to be part of the system then became a separate entity, rampantly consumes all it possibly can, rapidly expands as fast as it can to accelerate its consumption of its environment, and does so without the very ability to understand that consuming its environment means destroying itself.

    All that we see in society and civilization are human behavioral tendencies manifest on a large scale. Its not a gender, or race issue, or national issue. Its an issue with the fundamental behavioral makeup of the species that is present in all of humanity.

    Do we say when a cancer gets a foothold in the individuals body, that maybe SOME of the cancer is not to blame, and its just the really noticeable metastasis that needs clearing out?

    Is it just the old, entrenched cancerous cell colonies that need dealt with?

    Is it OK to ignore and let go the smaller, less well resource funded cancer colonies; the smaller pockets that dont have the ability (yet) to expand as rapidly as the larger ones?

    The ideas that this would be an OK thing to do are ridiculous.

    Truly ludicrous, really.

    So why is it suggested so often that maybe its just the really advanced stage planetary cancer that needs eliminating, and the early stage cancers are not to blame?

    Could it have something to do with the fact that its the cancer itself speaking to its own future, and that it will not, and even, because it lacks the ability, cannot, look upon itself objectively, dispassionately, and see that the only “right” solution to it, the human cancer, is its total eradication, just as the only “right” solution to dealing with a cancer within the individual is its total eradication?

    Where do our true priorities lie? Do we, each of us individually, want to see the restoration of the planet into a living, thriving world again?

    If so, realistically, that future does not, and cannot, include the human cancer.

    Or do we just SAY that we want to see the betterment of Earth, but what we really want is the perpetuation of ourselves, the cancer, and damn the planet, we are all that matters when push comes to shove?

    What I think some of us, the cancer cells, are concluding, is that maybe being a cancer is not going to work out long term, so we should change our behavior from that of a cancer, to more of a parasite, like a tick, and just cut back on the resource sucking and toxin injections into the environment, so the host does not die, but lives on, stifled, oppressed, and barely living… but still alive, so we, the parasite, get to live on too.

    But… that is a tiny minority still who are willing to really transition from cancer to tick… most will not, and indeed, cannot change.

    So really… its not about “right” and “wrong”… its about accurate representation. Humanity is by all metrics of the principle, a cancer, and cancer is what it is, at every level. The big chunks of cancer are just small ones more advanced, given more opportunity, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the small chunks would absolutely become big chunks if they could.

    Want a renewed planet? Super, so do I. But guess what? Your existence is antithetical to that renewed planet. So are your children’s existences, and all the “innocent, confused Bangladeshi children” too, or whatever non-white child we are supposed to be feel sorry for this week.

    That’s whats really hard for the vast majority of the cancer cells to accept… that an ideal future for Earth requires all of their individual deaths.

    ALL of them.

    Just as one tiny cancer clump in the body cannot be allowed to continue living, as it will inevitably begin to grow and re-infest the rest of the body, neither really can any human pocket be left, or it too will someday begin to grow, as cancers do, and re-infest the areas where it was cleared out, and once again, turn a recovering body into the dying one it was before.

    “But ‘we’ can change”!

    That’s just it… we cant.

    And even if we could, we would choose to not.

    And very ironically, if humanity were to change so drastically on such a fundamental level as to completely change core behavioral tendencies that are hard coded into the human psyche… the resultant individuals would no longer be human. Indeed, what we see manifesting right now in human society and its civilizations, is perfectly a manifestation of the fundamental human condition.

    It ain’t pretty, is it?

    Cancer is what it is.”

    I call us shit-eating maggots. But that’s another story.

  • There are some fundamental differences between the way humans were set on the warpath and the way control mechanisms in cells are corrupted starting them on the warpath, but the result is the same. Cancer is a part of the universe, wherever information and order prevail it’s bound to have the final say. Took a long time though, several billions of years to create something with the right characteristics to escape the natural controls. There’s still no guarantee that machines won’t do away with humans and the ecosystem and begin their own vicious pyramid of consumption and predation. In our cancerous rampage we’ve been able to make available and spend massive amounts on education and yet it doesn’t seem to have done much good. Education serves technology. If we were going to reach a criticality in intelligence, a singularity, it probably already would have happened, but since we carry with us a tribal, narcissistic, primate brain most interested in emotional matters, mutual grooming, gossip, entertainment, and so on, there’s little chance that even our “political” leaders will become enlightened. I often fear that revealing the mechanisms of the emergence of civilization will draw the ire of those wishing the public to remain at a lower level of consciousness. Perhaps that’s why I’m having such a hard time writing about it. And because it would be ignored, banished from any discourse except perhaps amongst a few systems people. So the beat goes on, until it becomes erratic and then it stops.

  • It’s not important, but in the interest of accuracy, that was The Old Faithful Inn we stayed in while visiting Yellowstone.

    There was piano and cello on the second level of the five story rustic lobby every evening. The pianist did the Blue Danube superbly one evening. I was proud not to get emotionally involved in the listening, like one of Pavlov’s dogs smelling food. It’s the same thing. I remember as a kid getting chills when hearing patriotic music. Such folly!

  • PC Sez: “We’re already dead. So get on with living.”

    Total oxymoron here.

    You cannot “get on with living” if you are already DEAD. Nobody participating in this thread is already DEAD. There is no Internet Access from the Great Beyond. LOL.

    Survey collected another 15 respondents so far today!

    Way past Statistical Validity levels now! 😛

    RE

  • Jean wrote:

    “The human population number is not a problem, but it all depends on how that population lives of the planet. ”

    And Curious wrote:

    “Everybody can be fed on this planet…“

    The problem I have with such pronouncements is as follows:

    First of all, I am going to assume that Jean and Curious will accept the fact that the “planet” is indeed finite, and as such the earth’s ability to sustain feeding humans (without also crashing the planetary web of life that we are dependent upon for our food) has an absolute limit beyond which our population number and feeding that number is unsustainable.

    We don’t know for sure what that human population number might be, but I think we can all agree there is an absolute number that is unsustainable, even with equitable food rationing. (However, if Jean and Curious do not agree with such a proposition, than I think it becomes patently clear their beliefs are lacking a fundamental understanding of the energetic physics that presently allows for 7 plus billion humans.)

    If the proposition of an unsustainable (albeit it unknown) human population is true, than Jean’s assertion that “the human population number is not the problem” is dead wrong. For at some point the human population *number* is most definitely a problem on a finite planet, no matter how “that population lives on the planet.” Perhaps it would of been better of him to state that he believes the present 7 plus billion humans is not a problem, depending on how this population lives on the planet. But seeing as he didn’t I can only assume he might also believe a human population number of 10 or 20 billion is not a problem either; it’s just a matter of how this number of humans lives on the planet, but without saying how that is to be done.

    Be that as it may, maybe it is possible that everybody alive today, which is to say 7 plus billion humans, can all be fed decent meals, if all the food grown today were to be equitably shared among us all. Obviously that is not the case, and this seems to be the main moral argument that Jean and Curious would have us accept.

    While this is all well and good as a grand moral standard, it ignores some fundamental issues with respect to how all (and where) this food is grown today.

    Practically all the food we raise today is done so in unsustainable ways, with inputs from ground water, fertilizers, and mechanization, that are grossly dependent upon fossil fuels.

    So even if we were to imagine sharing all this food (and/or its excess) grown this way among the 7 plus billion humans so that no one went hungry, we would still be confronted with an unsustainable system of global agriculture — one that directly contributes to our present day abrupt climate disruption predicament.

    Perhaps Jean and Curious imagine a world where we all go back to organic farming, where crops are grown (or fail) depending solely upon the grace (or lack thereof) of good weather, and all 7 plus billion humans survive or perish equitably depending upon the results of such sustainable food producing practices. But really what they preach is a continuation of our fossil fueled food production practices without consideration of how unsustainable this is for “everybody” alive today, never mind the “human population number” tomorrow — or how it undermines the web of life for ourselves and non-human lives.

    Until they can explain exactly how we shall go about feeding everybody alive today equitably without any inputs from fossil fuels, as is absolutely necessary to stave off further climatic disruptions that are already beginning to wreck havoc on our global food production abilities, these sorts of pronouncements are self-righteous moralizing bunk.

  • The world’s present population level is possible only because of a food production system which is based upon FOSSIL FUELS. Read Dale Allen Pfieffer’s articles on this matter if you don’t believe me. Jean Turcot and Curious don’t get the term “carrying capacity.” Beyond a certain population level, all the social justice that’s possible (and there’s no denying that there is NONE at this point) still cannot make up for exceeding carrying capacity.

    This is the same Jean Turcot who argues that “negative feedbacks” which will mitigate the climate crisis could either show up or be discovered, never mind that the number oof “positive feedbacks” has quadrupled if not more since Guy started listing them at Climate Summary and Update. Jean wants to believe in unicorns, facts be damned.

    Meanwhile, the ice melt accelerates.
    https://robertscribbler.com/2015/05/22/arctic-sea-ice-conditions-worsen-nightmare-melt-scenario-in-the-works/
    Arctic Sea Ice Conditions Worsen, Nightmare Melt Scenario in the Works? 5/22/15.

    It’s the end of a bad week in a bad month in a bad season in the all-too-bad, human-heated, era for Arctic sea ice. As of the middle of this week, both the US measure — NSIDC — and Japan’s measure — JAXA — were showing record low daily sea ice extents. The lowest levels in the history of Arctic sea ice observation for this time of year and likely the lowest levels for hundreds, even thousands of years.
    As charts go, the JAXA graphic looks pretty amazingly ominous. A 2015 sea ice extent line diving below all others, steadily plumbing an abyss that, if not this year or the next, could lead to a dreaded blue ocean event in the not-too-distant future. The kind of upshot from human greenhouse gas emissions we thought we might see by 2080 or later. One that has become increasingly more likely during recent years and that some researchers are expecting could emerge by before 2020.[Chart]
    Above you can seen the 2015 red line taking its most recent plunge after hovering very near to record low levels. According to JAXA’s Polar Research Center, sea ice extent dropped like a stone to 11.44 million square kilometers yesterday, or about 200,000 square kilometers lower than the previous record low value set in 2006.
    The problem is not just one of a new record low. It’s one of timing and divergence. Accelerated melt in the May-to-June time-frame can have serious impacts on late season ice. The reason is that greatly reduced ice coverage also reduces albedo or reflectivity. The result can be compounded warming and increased heat absorption by darker surfaces under the 24 hour Arctic sunlight of June and July.
    Large open stretches of ocean also enable swell formation, which can chew away the ice. And already we can see very large sections of dark, low albedo, ocean forming throughout many vulnerable regions.[Satellite photo]
    For this time of year, we have very advanced sea ice loss and open ocean development in the regions of the Chukchi, the Beaufort, Northern Baffin Bay and the Kara. In addition, large open water areas are now becoming visible in the Laptev. A far northern extent of sea ice melt for May in addition to typical seasonal losses coming from Hudson Bay and southern Baffin Bay.
    Such record low ice totals at this time of year can enable far greater melt advance by end season if the weather stacks up in all the wrong ways. And, at least for the next week, the weather forecast is tilting ever more heavily toward a melt-enhancing extreme warming of Arctic regions.
    Over the next seven days, heat is predicted to continue to flood from south to north — goaded along by high amplitude ridges in the Jet Stream continuing to form over Northwestern North America and the Siberian region adjacent to the Kara Sea. The warm flux zones are forecast to deliver unseasonable, above average temperatures to the Arctic — resulting a general state of much warmer than normal conditions for the entire Arctic Ocean by late next week.[Two maps]
    As a result, we see temperature anomalies for the entire Arctic Ocean zone hitting a range of between 5 and 15 degrees Celsius above average for next Friday (May 29, 2015). [That’s 9 to 27 deg F!!]Such a warm air surge would push temperatures in the above freezing range for almost the entire Arctic Ocean area. These are temperatures more typical of late June and early July. Conditions that, should they emerge, would result in a multiplication of ice-threatening melt ponds, a further expansion and warming of already unseasonably large open water zones, and a forcing of more ice-eating, high heat content water vapor into the Arctic environment.
    Any forecast is subject to uncertainty. Rapid May melt during 2013 and 2014 stalled out during June of those years. However, May melt is significantly more advanced this year than during those years. And, as opposed to 2013 and 2014, GFS model forecasts showing warmer than normal conditions have tended to be correct. The warm air slots over Northwest North American and Western Siberia are also very well established at this time.[Photo]
    As a result, there’s high risk that the current record lows now appearing in the NSIDC and JAXA measures with continue to deepen over the coming week. It’s an utterly wretched situation for sea ice in the Northern Hemisphere. One that will bear very close watching as the risks now appear to be heading toward some unsettling markers.

    And at the other pole:
    http://m.sciencemag.org/content/348/6237/899
    Dynamic thinning of glaciers on the Southern Antarctic Peninsula, 5/22/15.

    Glaciers on the Southern Antarctic Peninsula have begun losing mass at a rapid and accelerating rate. Wouters et al. documented the dramatic thinning of the land-based ice, which began in 2009, using satellite altimetry and gravity observations. The melting and weakening of ice shelves reduce their buttressing effect, allowing the glaciers to flow more quickly to the sea.
    Growing evidence has demonstrated the importance of ice shelf buttressing on the inland grounded ice, especially if it is resting on bedrock below sea level. Much of the Southern Antarctic Peninsula satisfies this condition and also possesses a bed slope that deepens inland. Such ice sheet geometry is potentially unstable. We use satellite altimetry and gravity observations to show that a major portion of the region has, since 2009, destabilized. Ice mass loss of the marine-terminating glaciers has rapidly accelerated from close to balance in the 2000s to a sustained rate of –56 ± 8 gigatons per year, constituting a major fraction of Antarctica’s contribution to rising sea level. The widespread, simultaneous nature of the acceleration, in the absence of a persistent atmospheric forcing, points to an oceanic driving mechanism.

  • And James Kunstler today discusses the two different delusions being sold to the public by Hollywood re the future.

    http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/yesterdays-tomorrowland/
    Yesterday’s Tomorrowland, 5/25/15, perfect for Memorial Day.

    America takes pause on a big holiday weekend requiring little in the way of real devotions beyond the barbeque deck with two profoundly stupid movie entertainments that epitomize our estrangement from the troubles of the present day.
    First there’s Mad Max: Fury Road, which depicts the collapse of civilization as a monster car rally. They managed to get it exactly wrong. The present is the monster car show. Houston. Los Angeles. New Jersey, Beijing, Mumbai, etc. In the future, there will be no cars, gasoline-powered, electric, driverless, or otherwise. Mad Max: Fury Road is actually a perverse exercise in nostalgia, as if we’re going to miss being a nation of savages in the driver’s seat, acting out an endless and pointless competition for our little place on the highway.
    The other holiday blockbuster is Disney’s Tomorrowland, another exercise in nostalgia for the present, where the idealized human life is a matrix of phone apps, robots, and holograms. Of course, anybody who had been to Disneyland back in the day remembers the old Tomorrowland installation, which eventually had to be dismantled because its vision of the future had become such a joke — starting with the idea that the human project’s most pressing task was space travel. Now, at this late date, the monster Disney corporation — a truly evil empire — sees that more money can be winkled out of the sore-beset public by persuading them that techno-utopia is at hand, if only we click our heels hard enough.

  • Haydukes,

    Your belief that:”This seems to be the main moral argument that Jean and Curious would have us accept.” What do you imply by using the word ‘US’? Who is us? Are you assuming that everyone on this blog agrees with you? I have witnessed a few on this forum who would not like to be counted in your ‘us’ premise. While you may indeed have a few amigos who support your overpopulation stance, you would do well to speak for yourself.

    Your questions however are absolutely pertinent, but then I did write that in my post that there are no arguments as to the fact that zero humans would obviously consume and affect the Earth’s environments much less than 7 billion. I also mentioned that some people believe we could in fact support more than 7 billion people. As far as supporting an infinite number of people, I just assumed that you would give Curious and I some measure of rationality, if only to acknowledge that our way of seeing things may not necessarily be the highway all people would choose, but that we are at least somewhat sane.

    Writing a book on a controversial subject such as overpopulation is not in my interest, and all I can offer to support my beliefs is my own interpretation of what I now, or think I know. I fundamentally disagree with Paul Ehrlich, and I do admit that I have little supportive evidence to believe what I do believe. It’s just me, and it has nothing to do with self-righteousness as you suggest. Far from it, as long as humans continue to aim their stupid nuclear arsenals at each other, my compassion for our species is pretty lean. I do think however, that the more we take care of each other, the more the Earth will be able to tolerate our presence on this planet, and it has NOTHING to do with me loving anybody, although I do love a few people.

    I also believe that if anyone truly believes that there are too many humans that anyone has the choice to alleviate what they deem to be a problem, and I for one won’t shed a tear. There are plenty of people who love life enough to take up the slack, and the food whoever wants to leave for those who have none.

    As far as how to feed everyone without taxing the planet too much, there are too many ways to do just that to go into it at length, and it would be too taxing to name the ways. Modern technology, combined with alternate and renewable energy sources are plentiful and awaiting our smarts to go after them in spades.

    If you still want to dispute that premise, be my guest. It’s all yours.

  • Everbody who thinks there is overpopulation:

    Start with yourself.

    The mindset of the western “zivilisation” is pure decadence at the final stage, I know that, no need to teach it. It will be the main cause for extinction and I wont miss it. Bon voyage 8-!

  • @Jean Turcot

    I do think however, that the more we take care of each other, the more the Earth will be able to tolerate our presence on this planet…

    You name it. There is too much greed and hate and egoism and decadence going on in the rich, full up nations and now they yell “overpopulation!” while foremost implying the poor populations of the socalled 3rd and 2nd world, because the status quo of the socalled 1st world is in real danger. This tactic came up in the late 70s, to hide the real causes of hunger, poverty and injustice. Just go on with hate, egoism and ignorance and extinction will be real, no doubt, western “civilisation” will shovel it’s own grave soon. Neither earth nor I will miss that kind of mindset for shure.

  • “we carry with us a tribal, narcissistic, primate brain most interested in emotional matters,”

    The non-rational, non-verbal brain of emotions and values is the limbic system, associated with the basal ganglia deep in the cerebral hemispheres, and the brainstem, particularly the ventral periaqueductal grey for emotions. The rational mammalian brain is associated with the frontal lobes just behind the forehead. The primate brain also includes language that is associated with the language areas. The mammalian and primate brain are subordinate to the reptilian brain.

    “PC Sez: “We’re already dead. So get on with living.”
    Total oxymoron here.
    You cannot “get on with living” if you are already DEAD. Nobody participating in this thread is already DEAD.”

    That’s dualistic (dvaita) and theistic thinking, expressed in a manner that reminds one of an organ grinder’s sidekick. Most people, almost all people, live exclusively in the realm of the body-mind complex, where the irreversible cessation of its function is defined as death but referred to by many euphemisms.

    The awareness by which all is apparent, is seemingly inseparable in such folks from the phantasmic mirage called the “I”, an “I” that is concatenated from sundry impressions. That awareness also seems inseparable from objects of that awareness. But it is not your awareness, just you. Not “the” awareness, not an object. You. And there are ways to realise it. Not as a fish getting wet, but as a fish realising it is wet, and that no bath is needed.

    “There is no Internet Access from the Great Beyond. LOL.”

    For the realised being there is no beyond.

    “there is an absolute number that is unsustainable, even with equitable food rationing…
    do not agree with such a proposition… lacking a fundamental understanding of the energetic physics…
    If the proposition of an unsustainable (albeit it unknown) human population is true… at some point the human population *number* is most definitely a problem on a finite planet, no matter how “that population lives on the planet.””

    A valiant effort, sort of like teaching algebra to a bullfrog: an estimate for a sustainable population of 35 million people is not about populations of bullfrogs.

  • “we carry with us a tribal, narcissistic, primate brain most interested in emotional matters,”

    The non-rational, non-verbal brain of emotions and values is the limbic system, associated with the basal ganglia deep in the cerebral hemispheres, and the brainstem, particularly the ventral periaqueductal grey for emotions. The rational mammalian brain is associated with the frontal lobes just behind the forehead. The primate brain also includes language that is associated with the language areas. The mammalian and primate brain are subordinate to the reptilian brain.

    “PC Sez: “We’re already dead. So get on with living.”
    Total oxymoron here.
    You cannot “get on with living” if you are already DEAD. Nobody participating in this thread is already DEAD.”

    That’s dualistic (dvaita) and theistic thinking, expressed in a manner that reminds one of an organ grinder’s sidekick. Most people, almost all people, live exclusively in the realm of the body-mind complex, where the irreversible cessation of its function is defined as death but referred to by many euphemisms.

    The awareness by which all is apparent, is seemingly inseparable in such folks from the phantasmic mirage called the “I”, an “I” that is concatenated from sundry impressions. That awareness also seems inseparable from objects of that awareness. But it is not your awareness, just you. Not “the” awareness, not an object. You. And there are ways to realise it. Not as a fish getting wet, but as a fish realising it is wet, and that no bath is needed.

    “There is no Internet Access from the Great Beyond. LOL.”

    For the realised being there is no beyond.

    “there is an absolute number that is unsustainable, even with equitable food rationing…
    do not agree with such a proposition… lacking a fundamental understanding of the energetic physics…
    If the proposition of an unsustainable (albeit it unknown) human population is true… at some point the human population *number* is most definitely a problem on a finite planet, no matter how “that population lives on the planet.””

    A valiant effort, sort of like teaching algebra to a bullfrog: an estimate for a sustainable population of 35 million people is not about populations of bullfrogs.

  • Kirk: Glad you enjoyed the post. The sooner humanity is gone, the better, IMO.

    Curious says:

    “Everbody who thinks there is overpopulation:

    Start with yourself.”

    The classic last ditch pro-overshooter retort. Inevitably occurs when faced with facts that they cannot logically refute, thus they must resort to emotional outlashing, not so subtly calling for someone to kill themselves.

    Its a nonsense response. To address human population overshoot, those who would need to die are those who dont believe in it, as they are the ones breeding like fruit flies causing the problem to begin with. Not the ones who recognize it as real, who more than likely have already chosen not to have children and in fact are already doing their part.

    You feel threatened by the facts, is what it comes down to, Curious.

  • @Into Destiny

    You feel threatened by the facts, is what it comes down to, Curious.

    If you think so. Do you think that extinciton is inevitable? Then “overpopulation” will be solved anyway.

  • If extinction should be inevitable, then we don’t have to worry about “overpupulation” anymore. It makes absolutely no sense to yell “overpopulation” while at the same time propagating inevitable near term extinction.

    But if near term extinction should not be inevitable, then you will have to think about a more sustainable, just future, where the goods are distributed fair globally, to prevent extinction in the future 🙂

    It is that simple. And i like it 🙂

  • So, western civilisation is sitting in the trap now, become just and sustainable globally or go extinct anyway- feel the heat 🙂

  • Modern Man: What is my purpose?
    Native Man: Where are my people?
    Modern Man: Where do I come from?
    Native Man: Where are my people?
    Modern Man: Where am I going?
    Native Man: Where are my people?

    Great. Yeah, gather the tribes !

    Fire on the Mountain- A Gathering of Shamans


    Message from the Kogi

    ‘From the beginning in Colombia
    everything, everything remained as it
    was
    among us,
    the native people;
    the same belief, the same mask,
    the same dance.
    Everything well organised, in order,
    A terrace for every animal.

    ‘Younger brother was permitted in
    other places,
    other countries.
    There was a dividing line, the sea.

    ‘He said, ‘Younger Brother that side,
    Elder Brother this side.
    You cannot cross it.’
    Because this Colombia was the heart of
    The world,
    Of the whole universe.
    ‘But Younger Brother came from
    another country
    and immediately saw gold
    and immediately began to rob.
    There were golden images,
    golden oracles.
    The Mama prophesied with golden
    Bowls,
    he had a golden tuma,
    he had everything
    and Younger Brother took it all to
    another country.
    ‘Now the Mama grows sad,
    he feels weak.
    He says that the earth is decaying.
    The earth is losing its strength
    Because they have taken away much
    petrol,
    coal,
    many minerals.

    ‘A human being has much liquid inside.
    If the liquid dries up we fall with
    weakness.
    This same thing can happen to the
    Earth,
    Weakness makes you fall,
    weakness.

    ‘So the earth catches diseases of all
    kinds.
    The animals die.
    The trees dry up.

    People fall ill.
    Many illnesses will appear
    And there will be no cure for them
    Why?

    ‘Because the Younger Brother is among us,
    Younger Brother is violating
    The basic foundation of the world’s law
    A total violation.
    Robbing.
    Ransacking.
    Building highways,
    Extracting petrol,
    minerals.

    ‘We tell you,
    We the people of this place,
    Kogi,
    Asario,
    Arhuaco:
    that is the violation

    ‘So the Mamas say,
    ‘please BBC
    no one else should come here,
    no more ransacking
    because the earth wants to collapse,
    the earth grows weak,
    we must protect it,
    we must respect it,
    because he does not respect the earth,
    because he does not respect it.’

    ‘Younger Brother thinks,
    ‘Yes! Here I am! I know much about
    the universe!’
    But this knowing is learning to destroy
    the world,
    to destroy everything,
    all humanity.

    ‘The earth feels, they take out petrol, it
    feels pain there.
    So the earth sends out sickness.
    There will be many medicines,
    drugs,
    but in the end the drugs will not be of
    any use.

    ‘The Mamas say that this tale must be
    learnt
    by the Younger Brother.’

    ( A message from the BBC documentary ‘From the Heart of the World – The Elder Brother’s Warning’ (1990) )

    http://www.theelderbrother.com/

  • An “economic summit” on the Arctic is a hunt for more blood (The Evolution of Models – 10).

  • WAR IS A COMING.

    “Earlier this month NATO launched its biggest ever war game exercise on Russia’s doorstep. Moscow responded by conducting “provocative” war games in the Mediterranean Sea in coordination with the Chinese PLA, the first ever naval drill involving both superpowers.”

  • What really cracks me up is that here I am on a doomer site, and people still don’t get it. lol. I go to great lengths to compile fact lists that people reflexively dismiss out of hand. Astonishing! Usually after telling people humanity will very shortly run out of food, I am told 2 things
    1) If we stop wasting food, there will be no hunger.
    2) If we stop eating meat, there will be no hunger.

    It’s like saying if we stop dying, then everyone can live, or, if we stop eating, then there will be food for all. lol. Did you ever throw away food? Did you ever eat shit on a road trip? Scoring debating points for the sake of argument has nothing to do with reality.

    The other debate deflection point that cracks me up is the idea that it’s not the poor who are wrecking life on earth, it’s the rich. We still have 7 billion mouths to feed and at some point the basic needs of several billion people will only aggravate the extravagant desires of a few billion wealthy people.

    In more or less than 10 years, there will be no food or water for billions no matter what the esteemed Vandana Shiva exhorts us to do.

  • Hokahey !

  • If we can not be equal in life, well, then Death will make all of us equal for shure.

  • It seems like Jean and Curious are either the same person or have the same ’employer’.

  • Here is a Richard Pryor joke that illustrates the vacuous cognition of blaming the victim because of defective collective-guilt pathology:
    ——————————————
    But I was there [Arizona Prison making a movie] six weeks and I talked to some of the brothers there.

    Thank God we got jails.

    I said to one, “Why’d you kill everybody in the house?”

    He said, “They was home.”
    ———————————————————-
    Some criminal minds cannot distinguish the guilty from the victim.

    Citizens are being mass murdered by those who engineered climate change because they are home.

  • After Lifetime of Discoveries, Climatologist Asks: ‘Now That You Know, What Will You Do?’

    Now That I Know…

    I will live the rest of my time here as mindfully and lovingly as I can.
    I will never stop learning – about the world, about other people and about myself.
    I will strive to be compassionate to all beings – especially to those people who are still asleep.

    I will treat all hardships as opportunities.
    I will cause as little harm as I can manage.
    I will have compassion for myself over any harm I inflict because I cannot avoid it.
    I will express gratitude for the incredible good fortune I have experienced simply by being conscious and self-aware at this moment in history.

    I will discard all blame, anger, guilt and shame – these emotions are obstacles to growth.
    I will forgive us all for being the flawed miracles that we are.

  • Dredd:

    I have a book: “Why They Kill.” by Richard Rhodes.

    He Quotes W. H. Auden, on the page before the ‘contents’.

    “I and the public knew
    What all schoolchildren learn
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do evil in return.”

    I believe this but am not sure how u explain politicians, the brats of the world. The so-called leaders. Money must be the entire problem?

    Was an interesting read (copyright 2000)!

    In writing the book, Mr Rhodes discovered Mr Lonnie Athens’ theory of “violentization”, the four stage process by which ALMOST any person, regardless of race, gender, genetic heritage, or socio-economic status, can become someone who will assault, batter, rape, mutilate, or murder another human being.”

    This explains, “They were home”.

    https://www.amazon.com/They-Kill-Rhodes-Richard-Paperback/dp/B009O2F36Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1432647198&sr=8-3&keywords=Why+they+kill+Richard+Rhodes

  • @Robert Callaghan,
    Please don’t stop your repetitious posts. We need to keep hearing the stats. They need to sink in. Even when I “know” intellectually what you are saying, the enormity of it has yet to fully express itself, and I don’t think any of us can imagine the horrors we’ll be facing: the quiet horrors, the non-cinematic ones.

    It IS funny, isn’t it!? I have been kicked off and threatened with banishment from notable doomer sites for being too doom-y! Like Goldilocks, some people want their Doom jusssst riigght… not too hot and not too cold!

    @Dredd, “those who engineered climate change”??? Do you think this catastrophe was intentionally set in motion, rather than being the simple result of “monkey want banana”?

    The evidence for and characteristics of past warfare come together, again, in Tikopia, that particularly appropriate example from the “paradise” of the South Pacific. In spite of the efforts to control population, including infanticide and periodic “explorations” for resettlement, the Tikopians could not control their numbers, nor were the sea and land of limitless bounty. In such a small society, with an entire island population of fewer than fifteen hundred people, severe resource stress would not be expected to result in warfare. If there were any place where people might starve when all other courses of action were exhausted, it would be a small island in the middle of nowhere. Yet there was warfare in paradise. At one time Tikopia had three political entities. In the mid-1700s, the group living in the least productive area of the island virtually annihilated the other two political entities or forced them to flee. We know from historical accounts that at least one other major act of warfare had taken place a couple of centuries previously. When Tikopia was not under a single political leadership, violent and annihilating warfare took place at least every few centuries.
    Why we Fight, Steven A. LeBlanc, St. Martin, 2004
    http://jayhanson.org/_Biology/ConstantBattles.htm

  • I’ve posted a new episode in the Edge of Extinction series, and also a link to an interview that has triggered quite the online shitstorm. Catch all the latest here.

  • @Robert Callaghan,
    I am very thankful for your list. I had informally gathered a list that I called “The flock of black swans”. It doesn’t compare at all to yours. Thank you, sir.
    @Paul Chefurka,
    From the entangling brambles I hear your voice and pause my struggle, to simply breath.

  • Jean Turcot Says:
    May 25th, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    “As far as how to feed everyone without taxing the planet too much, there are too many ways to do just that to go into it at length, and it would be too taxing to name the ways. Modern technology, combined with alternate and renewable energy sources are plentiful and awaiting our smarts to go after them in spades.

    If you still want to dispute that premise, be my guest. It’s all yours.”

    Modern technology? Plentiful renewable energy resources? Once again, assertions without a microgram of supporting evidence. Your contempt for scientific reasoning and belief in techno-fix have reached new heights.

    And it’s curious how Curious, who buys all of Jean’s crap at face value, gets to post not just over two posts, but an infinite number.

  • Lidia Says:
    May 26th, 2015 at 6:40 am

    @Dredd, “those who engineered climate change”??? Do you think this catastrophe was intentionally set in motion, rather than being the simple result of “monkey want banana”?
    =======================================
    “Intent” in the law is not what laypeople consider it to be.

    “Intent follows the bullet.”

    Meaning that if we fire a gun hurling a bullet into a rock behind a target, and the bullet ricochets and kills someone, the law says we “intended” that to happen.

    But, even that type of legal intent is not required in depraved-heart murder cases.

    Criminal negligence or reckless disregard are sufficient.

    There is more than enough evidence to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal prosecution, a case of depraved-heart murder (Oil-Qaeda & MOMCOM Conspire To Commit Depraved-Heart Murder).

    There is no statute of limitations on murder.

  • shep Says:
    May 26th, 2015 at 6:39 am

    Dredd:

    I have a book: “Why They Kill.” by Richard Rhodes.

    ======================================
    Most people do not kill.

    Those exposed to power experience a surge and are the ones most likely to kill (About Toxins of Power).

    We need to focus on what is killing civilization (fossil fuel use) and who is responsible for its use and continued use at the level of power necessary to “make it so” (Oil-Qaeda, The Indictment).

    The evidence of that, and therefore who to indict, would be shown by an agreement, signed by certain individual power brokers, to leave all remaining fossil fuels in the ground.

  • Hot digitty, a shit storm! Now we’re talkin’!

  • @Gerald Spazio: Gerald your posts are, and continue to be absolutely amazing to me! In particular the post/comment from May 26th, 2015 at 11:52 am on: https://guymcpherson.com/2015/05/edge-of-extinction-endocene/ (which seems to be closed to comments)
    “Not from Wiki.
    Endocene is the short epochal period following directly from the anthropocene…”

    That post does an even better future-pace job of summing-it-all-up than Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway’s book: The Collapse of Western Civilization: A View from the Future (http://amzn.to/1GPlCFO)

    Brilliant! I look forward to hearing and reading more from you -trusted advisor!

    Simple is Powerful: I am involved in some NTHE media projects that i would at the very least welcome your comments and advice. Please contact me @ DefiantSunMedia@Gmail.com “Keep it Up “, and Be Well Gerald!

  • I so love now. Love April. The raised beds are warm and greening with early spring hatchlings. The worms delight in the loosened soil. Hummingbirds, loons, butterflies, dragonflies, all on their way……and leaves and blossoms and perfumes just weeks away. The lengthening evenings…. To think that I somehow was fortunate to see and be new once more. Tis Grace. To witness a single growing season is a heaven incarnate. My beloved collie lifts her aristocratic nose to the air and squints with pleasure… her daddy’s heart is singing and she nose it…