If We Have No Future, Why Grieve?

by Carolyn Baker

Grief 4Edward Abbey famously said, “Action is the antidote to despair.” Clearly, if we find ourselves engulfed in despair, anger, fear, or any other painful emotion, one way to move through it is to “minimize” it on the screen of our emotional operating system and take action on behalf of whatever cause is calling us. What is more, it is not enough to just feel our feelings about the obscenity of planetary pillage that the human species has wrought. Even though our action cannot undo it or reverse the inevitable, it is the least we can do in response to environmental ecocide, and it is a means of practicing good manners toward all of the species that have not yet vanished.


That said, it is equally irresponsible to take action while repressing, ignoring, or minimizing our feelings. This essay attempts to address why this is so.


First, it is precisely because of denying our emotional response to the miracle of life on Earth that we are in the process of eliminating it. It is likely that as children, we experienced moments, perhaps even hours or days, of enchantment with the natural world. Although we may have known intellectually that we aren’t actually frogs, birds, bugs, flowers, or streams, our physical bodies may have felt as if we were. We may have become so immersed with these living beings that we experienced ourselves as part of them. That experience, or what Carl Jung called participation mystique, is what people of all ages in ancient cultures experienced continuously. The most excruciating anguish of all when indigenous cultures are uprooted, conquered, and forced to assimilate into modern cultures is the physical, emotional, and spiritual sense of union with the ecosystems which is brutally violated in the process.


Adults in modern culture rarely experience a visceral sense of connection with the Earth, and the absence of that experience impairs our ability to recognize its limits. If I don’t feel another human being in my space, I am almost certain to transgress their boundary. Likewise, if I do not feel the physical and spiritual presence of nature—in fact, if I do not recognize that I am not a part of nature but that I am nature, my exploitation of it is guaranteed.


What is more, early on, ancient cultures developed sophisticated rituals for coping with loss. Whether the loss of a member of the village or a member of the Earth community, these cultures recognized that loss is a part of life—and that grieving loss is healing for the individual and for the community. Likewise, they came to understand that when losses aren’t properly grieved, the people experiencing them become toxic to the community.


I believe there is enormous wisdom in this perspective—wisdom that has withstood the test of time. Enter any city or community in the modern world, and one finds people carrying unfathomable quantities of grief. We all know the messages the culture gives us about grief: It’s a private matter; don’t burden others with your grief; grief shows your weakness; stay strong; real men don’t cry; keep busy; get over it; put it behind you; it’s time to move on because life goes on; if you grieve too much or even just a little, you’ll get stuck in it; if you don’t get over it, you’ll get depressed—and on and on ad nauseum. Meanwhile, none of the grief gets metabolized, and as a result, it invariably becomes toxic to one’s own body and psyche and to the community.


The world recently witnessed an act of domestic terrorism perpetrated in Charleston, South Carolina by a white supremacist young man against nine African Americans. If you were fortunate enough to see some footage of the black community’s response to the tragedy, you undoubtedly saw black people wailing, screaming, crying loudly, and behaving in a desperate, “disorderly” fashion. That’s because this is a community that knows how to grieve. Unlike most white communities responding to similar carnage, the sorrow of the black community is generally not sanitized or well-behaved.


Moreover, this is a community that one moment can wail and cry out in grief and in the next moment, pick up the protest placard and march in the streets for justice.


Where is it written that we must either grieve or take action?


Furthermore, if we only take action, the fire of our activism can easily become an inferno that burns us out and drives us into egoistic action that lacks heart and may even be injurious to ourselves and the community. The fire must be balanced with the tears of heartbreak because only in heartbreak do we find our compassion and our deepest humanity. And in fact, it may be that discovering the depths of our humanity is the most important outcome any of us can experience as we meet our demise. In other words, through consciously grieving, we discover richer, sweeter, and more robust layers of love than we have ever known.


But there is yet another reason to grieve regardless of what the future holds or doesn’t hold. Cultures that understand the power of conscious grieving have arrived at their understanding for one reason beyond all others, and that is the capacity of grieving together to bond the hearts of individuals by way of their sorrow. As we descend into the well of grief together, we discover that we have never been and never will be separate. Could this be the missing piece in those many communities we hear about that fall apart or cannot sustain the differences between their members? It may be that when grieving replaces groundrules, love happens, and from it, unprecedented solidarity.


I recently had the privilege of facilitating a grief weekend workshop in Providence, Rhode Island in which 15 people gathered for three days to engage in deep, conscious grieving. Each time I facilitate a grief workshop, I am in awe of what happens when people do this work, and I find myself challenged to verbalize what happens in me as I witness the power of such an event. I touch into something timeless that issues from ancient memory and that has never been more relevant to the future than in the present moment.


We need each other’s grief as food for the soul—as medicine for the community. And it may be that the Earth community itself is asking us to grieve for the same reason. After all, if we will not grieve Gaia’s destruction, who will?


Conscious grieving in a safe, supportive container is anything but passive, pointless work. In fact, it is the most consequential and meaningful work we can be doing in the era of extinction. Yes, action is the antidote to despair, and as Griefwalker Stephen Jenkinson writes:

Here’s the revolution: What if grief is a skill, in the same way that love is a skill, something that must be learned and cultivated and taught? What if grief is the natural order of things, a way of loving life anyway? Grief and the love of life are twins, natural human skills that can be learned first by being on the receiving end and feeling worthy of them, later by practicing them when you run short of understanding. In a time like ours, grieving is a subversive act.


McPherson was interviewed on the Gary Null Show yesterday. You can read the description and hear the interview here. The segment with McPherson begins at the 54:53 mark.

I’ve created a survey to improve the radio show. Please complete it here.

McPherson will be interviewed for Revolution Radio at 4:00 p.m. Eastern on Monday, 20 July 2015. To listen live, follow along at Studio A here.

Ivey Cone at Fuki Cafe shot and edited the video embedded below, which features a casual conversation between McPherson and Dillon Thompson. It’s from 24 June 2015 in Eugene, Oregon.


Looking for San Francisco Bay Area folks to raise $$$$ to bring Guy to San Francisco. Please contact amyvegan@gmail.com if you are willing to donate towards Guy’s travel here.

Also seeking vegan folks to brainstorm the creation of 100% vegan urban community in or near Portland, Oregon along the light rail line.

Those of you seeking a response from me at the NBL Forum will be continue to be disappointed. I’ve never visited. I doubt I will.


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This week’s show features an interview with Cindy Robert Jensen, professor and activist at the University of Texas. Catch it live this afternoon. You can find our interview with Ray Jason, the Sea Gypsy Philosopher, in the archives from last week.


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McPherson’s latest book is co-authored by Carolyn Baker. The revised second edition of Extinction Dialogs: How to Live with Death in Mind is available. Electronic copy is available here from Amazon.

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Comments 85

  • One of the most intelligent species, and greatest victims of man, is the elephant. Reports of the genocide are ubiquitous.

    And, when they come upon a fallen member, or even the decayed bones of one, they huddle around, touching with their trunks, and express grief.

    It’s not so much an emotional lament as a paternal/matriarchal expression of respect, honor and remembrance. Afterward, as the herd moves away, there is an obvious renewed bond in the group. It’s as if they know it’s just a matter of time for them and want to treasure every moment.

    So, we can choose to live through the denial, be pissed-off at everybody and everything, fruitlessly negotiate with the heavenly Make-A-Wish franchise and fall into the deep abyss of pity.

    Or, we can accept responsibility; embrace the wisdom that while we can’t change what we’ve done, we can cherish this moment.

  • JC Dolph,

    Regarding your very sad July 13th, 2015 at 5:57 pm comment, and your more recent comment about elephants: Yes. I see these as wonderful, poignant illustrations of attachment theory. I know several older women who express exactly the same sentiment as the child: they do not especially fear death; they just don’t want to die alone, a very common dread. They want to die with someone holding them, just as the child did.

    Phil Morrison,

    Thanks for the excellent article. It appears to explain the Wikipedia situation very nicely.

    I sent the following query to info-en-q@wikimedia.org:

    Dear Volunteer,

    It has come to my attention that an article about Guy McPherson and near term human extinction (NTHE) has failed to post at Wikipedia, or has failed to remain posted for longer than about 24-hours. Especially given that you have articles posted about subjects such as the Flat-Earthers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies), will you please explain to me why you will not, or cannot, post an article on Guy McPherson and NTHE?

    Kindest Regards,
    Bud Nye

    So far I have not received a response and doubt that I will. Even so, I don’t see how it could hurt for many people to make this observation about Flat-Earthers and similar nonsense, and then asking a few pointed questions about the Guy McPherson and NTHE page not appearing.

    Robin Datta,

    Regarding your July 13th, 2015 at 1:40 pm comment:

    Okay. Nice change of subject. Whether “really” sentient or not, whether “really” a Turing machine function or not, and whether I “really” exist in the world: based on my experience to date, to the best of my quite possibly mistaken knowledge I expect that I do exist as a thinking and feeling animal on Earth, even if only as a “meat-robot” Turing machine function—all of which seems entirely irrelevant to me, thus I point to your most convenient, distracting change of subject. Whether actually sentient, or not, I will continue to put my faith in reasoning about and constructing conceptual models based on verifiable observations in the world; models we change as we learn more. Based on these highly fallible, often mistaken processes regarding how we love each other during our days in hospice as we die, until I learn of (presumably Turing machine generated) evidence and reasoning that suggests advantages of doing otherwise I will continue to put my faith in the social and psychological implications of attachment theory and emotion-focused therapy. I expect that you will probably continue to put your (Turing machine generated) faith in the allegedly infallible teachings of Adi Shankaracharya’s Drig Drishya Viveka.

    Regarding the NTHE argument:

    I have written this before and I will write it again: To me, the certainty of soon-coming massive, global-scale economic and social collapses with the accompanying death of a very large percentage of humanity, if not all of humanity, makes the passionate, highly intellectualized arguing about whether NTHE will or will not occur seem at least petty and silly if not downright adolescent (like calling each other insult-intended names). Why? Because the argument remains about something that no one will ever determine. Why not? Because the unfolding chaos will shut down our global electrical, communication, and transportation networks long, long before any remaining humans die in their uncommunicative pockets around the planet. Thus the kind of ever-so-popular, intellectually distracting arguing going on just serves as a secondary reactive emotional response to our self-annihilation trap and its many related horrors, a response that keeps people out of touch with their underlying, primary emotions related mainly to anxiety, fear, disgust, and shame. But many people “need” these defensive distractions because they find their primary emotions too painful to acknowledge, face, and share with others. So have at it ladies and gentlemen! Argue passionately ad infinitum about the unanswerable—just as we have about the supposed nature of all of those alleged metaphysical forces, entities, and spirits for so many millennia! Self-righteously screaming at each other with secondary anger that goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing productive, but has plenty of negative consequences, feels SO good, doesn’t it?

  • A little bit more on Truth from ulvfugl’s Angel Mountain blog

    which I think some of the newer people here (and some of the ones that remember him) might appreciate:

    “Re that despicable Naomi Klein and Lidia’s livid response…

    The trouble is, that there are thousands of those people, who are setting themselves up in leadership roles, and they exploit people’s despair and anger and emotion, and feed on it, and abuse it, and make themselves rich and famous, and all the while they collaborate with the very forces which they pretend that they are fighting.

    This has been going on forever, and we should have LEARNED by now. Those people, Bono, Madonna, etc, who go to famine areas, or flood disasters, by private jet, with a massive film crew, and the next day it’s featured on all the prime time TV and in all the crap magazines for the stupid masses, do nothing at all for the real suffering on the ground, they never address the fundamental causes, they leverage the human misery for their own publicity and advantage. It’s a trick, a con, that’s well understood in the industry, and everyone benefits EXCEPT the poor, the victims, the exploited, because they don’t count, nobody cares about them.

    Naomi Klein became famous when she wrote No Logo, and she did great work re Disaster Capitalism, etc, but she became famous and powerful and as always, it’s very hard not to be corrupted, and used by the elites who bend and manipulate everything, and now she herself is a BRAND name, and what she wrote reveals, that at heart, she has no real integrity there. Same goes for Bill McKibben.

    I’m sorry, for all the people who look up to those people and think they are awesome.

    Everybody wants their heroes, their saints, their superhumans, who they can imagine are strong and perfect and know some way forward.

    But the world is not like that. There never have been any, they have all, always, been human beings, very much like YOU. If they appear to be amazing, it’s because they were very clever at bluffing and had public relations folks who presented an image that was projected through the media, to suit what the public wanted. A hero on a plinth.

    They ACT, like actors in TV dramas.

    If you want to know what such people are really like, you’d have to live with them, or catch them off guard, or read their private thoughts.

    If you want to be a saint, yourself, then purify yourself, become perfectly ‘good’.

    But how do you do that ? What is ‘perfectly good’ ?

    Well, mike k thinks he knows, because he wants to lead people ‘out of the darkness’.
    He does not like it, when they are impolite, or use ad hom. (The dumb fuck does not seem to understand what an ad hom is. Telling people you love them is ad hom !)
    He used to hang out with a mafia enforcer. That was very very bad !

    But Jesus used to hang out with all the riff raff, lepers, prostitutes, etc. Somehow, I can’t imagine him being offended and berating and admonishing them for being impolite and using ad homs, hahaha

    See, it’s not so easy to know what ‘being good’ is, or how to define ‘the good’.

    What mike k means by ‘good’ is that the other person becomes his ‘victim’, who he can ‘save’, then he can feel good about himself, that he has done a good deed. Like all the celebrity do-gooders, the target of the charity is very much secondary, what really matters is the ego of the person who is ‘working so very hard to be saintly’, so they can be seen by the world to be like that awful Mother Theresa, as a ‘very good person’.

    But, as we know, very many of ‘the great and the good’ are demons, absolutely the most evil and wicked beings on Earth, who secretly rape, torture and murder little children, and appear in public in very fine robes with big smiles on their faces. They plot and arrange schemes that result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, ruin the lives of millions, and yet they are all charm and good manners. They never get blood on their smart expensive clothes.

    If you just purify your heart, and become all ‘goodness’, as the fool said, ‘unconditional love’, you think that is going to fix anything ?
    That’s the stupidity of the Coca Cola advert, ‘We’d like to teach the world to sing….’ produced by a ruthless multi national corporation, that steals the water supplies from local people, so that they lose their livelihoods… it’s globalisation, the Imperial Project, where everyone is forced to conform and obey the hegemony of the bankers, and compete against each other for jobs, as the whole planet gets trashed…

    See, ‘out of the darkness, into the light’, is no good. It’s like wanting pleasure without pain, summer without winter, day without night, life without death, good without bad…

    What you have to do, is accept and embrace both. You have to love both, equally. Then you are liberated. You don’t struggle to cling to the light, or crave for ‘goodness’, you are not offended by the impolite, any more than you are pleased by the polite.

    This is just basic buddhist, basic taoist, philosophy. But it is no good reading about it in a fucking BOOK. You have to do it in your body. In your everyday life. As you breath, in and out.

    You just let go of everything, and be an ordinary human being. It’s completely effortless.

    And if you know the darkest, most demonic wickedness inside your own self, then you know it inside the selves of all the other human beings, too. They become transparent, you can see their evil. Just as you can see the beauty of the saintly ones.”

  • BG 2:11. You grieve over those who should not be grieved for, and yet speak like the learned; wise men do not grieve over the dead or the living.

    Grief is a consequence of self non-recognition. When the “I” and its concomitant the “not-I” are recognised as appearances, there is nothing to grieve for.

  • Today is a good day not to reproduce.

    Washington Post, 7/14/2015, “What It’s Like to Predict the End of Humanity”

    “Mann continues to battle nightmares and struggle under the weight of his own environmental awareness.

    He has broken down in front of his students and can’t shake the fears he has about his daughter living in an alien planet that no longer resembled the one she was born into.

    ‘I don’t want her to have to be sad,’ Mann told Esquire. ‘And I almost have to believe we’re not yet there, where we are resigned to this future.'”


    From a previous thread–

    david higham, nice response to a question that was stunning in its emotional impoverishment…thanks.

    Sabine, I agree. Population issues should be at the very top of the list of concerns, especially with the ecological juggernaut that is approaching.

  • from DD today:


    There are 2,100 new coal plants being planned worldwide — enough to cook the planet


    The bottom line? There’s a large amount of coal capacity being planned worldwide, some 2,177 plants in all. Not all of these coal plants will actually get finished — many are getting sunk by local opposition or economic headwinds. But if even one-third of these planned plants get built, we run a high risk of busting through the 2°C global warming threshold. And right now, we’re on track to do just that. [more]

    On top of the above essay is the next post at the link:

    Graph of the Day: Lifetime CO2 output of proposed global coal-fired generating capacity


    Because coal is the most carbon-intensive fossil fuel and coal plants have a long lifespan, growth in coal capacity has major implications for climate stability. From 2004 to 2013, increased coal utilization outweighed all other sources combined, producing 62 percent of global carbon dioxide emissions growth from fossil fuels and cement (Global Carbon Project 2014). The International Energy Agency has found that coal use must peak by 2020 to limit global warming to 2°C above pre-industrial levels (IEA 2011), while a recent Nature study concluded that over 80 percent of current coal reserves must remain unused to allow a 50 percent chance of staying within 2°C warming (McGlade and Ekins 2015). [read the rest if interested]

  • It turns out that it was Joan Baez who said that action is the antidote to despair (according to google sources), but Abbey said similar things.


  • .
    I don’t miss Ulf-O’doodle at all, glad to have him gone – don’t need his hysteric drivel proxy-posted here…
    Looking forward to war, famine, and pestilence.
    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window, with a cat on my lap.
    Sadly, this is what we’ve come to:
    The Voluntary Extinction Movement says:
    “…thou shalt not procreate.”

    The Church of Euthanasia says:
    “Save the planet, kill yourself.”

  • A Florida Romance


    Monroe was plum disgusturd & pisstoff from wunderin why in the name of sweet Jesus they was so much suffrins & greefs everwheres as his Mama woud say all the times as Monroe was growin up.

    Monroe was way back on the payermints on his traler place witchd was more greefs caus the goddam traler ruff was leakin like hell when it was porrin down rain & fallin apart like the hole world was adoin and his hole life was adoin.

    And Monroes pickup done gone shithouse to and woudnt run no way but Monroe was stil struck with the payermints runnin or not witchd was makin him real pisstoff sincst it was way unfair as Monroe seen it.

    Monroe was reely big tore up bout his x wife Darlene caus Dwight toldt Monroe that Darlene was livin with a bunch of Nascar guys over in Jacksonvil doin drugs & screwin everbody when they was all high as shit on math.

    Peeple kepp on tellin Monroe that he was havin suffrins & greefs like this here caus he had forsaked our saveiyor the lord Jesus but Monroe said that wernt the reeson why.

    Monroe said that the reel reeson why was that he got marryd up to Darlene legal when they was both so young after Darlene toldt Monroe that she missed her perrid & she was sure nockered up PG.

    Monroe was confuse as shit caus Monroe knowd that afer the firser times he evertimes usind a rubbur that he woud get out the rubbur mashine in the pisser at Piggly Wiggly drive in.

    Afer they was marryd up in the church of the Christ Reserrecturd Darlene said that she done loss the baby when the dore to the pick up banged her rite on the ass & nockerd her down flat when she was halfaways out & Monroes foot slippin offin the clutcher caus Monroe was drunk as shit.

    Darlene never forgive Monroe for bein drunk as shit & makin her losser the baby caus that was the worsest & Darlene went to screwin a Nascar guy with a new pick up that had autamatric.

    When Monroe fond out about Darlene cheetin & screwin Monroe got so pisstoff & sick at his stummick that he took a terribl drunk & tore Darlenes blous top rite ofer her & pushed Darlene down the traler steps & Darlene screemin & cryin the hole time.

    Darlene went home to her Daddy’s trayler in Dunnellon & got her a lawyer & the lawyer made Darlene suck him off in the lawyer office caus Darlene coudnt never pay her lawyer bills that was so high as shit that Darlene had to blowd the lawyer or else stay married to Monroe acordion to what the lawyer toldt Darlene bout how the law worked.

    Darlene near to puked the firser times that she done it but she had to git a divorce legel from Monroe & the lawyer toldt Darlene that only a good lawyer like hissef coud swade the Judge man to give Darlene a divorce from Monroe caus of Monroes makin her looser the baby caus Monroe was drunk as shit & all the suffrins.

    Afer Monroe & Darlene went through D-I-V-O-R-C-E like in the song by Tammy Wyinette Monroe done sworn off all marry & love shit forever & evin serius considerd givin up drinkin & screwin pussy but a corse Monroe never done it.

    And the more Monroe memberd & thot bout all the suffrins & greefs everwheres the more disgusturd & pisstoff he woud git.

  • Robin Datta,

    July 14th, 2015 at 9:27 am you wrote “BG 2:11. You grieve over those who should not be grieved for, and yet speak like the learned; wise men do not grieve over the dead or the living. Grief is a consequence of self non-recognition. When the “I” and its concomitant the “not-I” are recognised as appearances, there is nothing to grieve for.”

    That serves as a wonderful, all-too-common, highly intellectualized, cognitive way to avoid and distract oneself from one’s soft, vulnerable, primary emotions (sadness, loneliness, and grief). Say that to your children, to the elephants, the dolphins, the whales, and to the gorillas and chimpanzees and see how far you get with it.

  • .
    From GW:
    I see climate change as only ONE SYMPTOM of ecosystem collapse. It is surely a very devastating one, but even without it, humanity is a cancer on the planet. We are consuming, destroying habitat, overfishing, polluting and poisoning the air, soil and water quite literally just as fast as we possible can – and there is NO indication at all that we will wind up any differently than the deer on St. Mathews Island as a result. We simply don’t have it in our DNA to rein in our appetites, our consumption, and our reproduction. So while I see nothing wrong in being happy (especially since those of us who indulge in reading on computers are the beneficiaries of both energy and human slaves) in the meanwhile. But the truth is, like Wile E. Coyote we have already plunged over the cliff, just a lot of us haven’t realized it yet. And no, it is a prediction that has absolutely nothing to do with religion or cults. It is based on irrefutable, irreversible trends and a view of history unclouded by wishful thinking (or hopium, a perfectly legitimate coinage IMO).
    please do not have children.

  • **I am in awe of what happens when people do this work, and I find myself challenged to verbalize what happens in me as I witness the power of such an event.**

    Yes – I can relate – having been an Herbalife salesman — I witnessed Mark Huges bring audiences to tears. Tony Robbins seems to do the same.

    But I noticed that in most cases – these feelings quickly fade — lasting only long enough (about 3 weeks) for everyone to agree what a *life changing* experience it had been.

    As most advertisers know, manipulating folks emotions is fairly easy — maintaining the **high** requires constant repetition.

  • The interview of Dr. McPherson at Fuki Cafe, by Dillon Thompson was quite good.

  • pat Says:
    July 14th, 2015 at 10:07 am

    The Church of Euthanasia says:
    “Save the planet, kill yourself.”
    A general preached at your church recently (Hypothesis: The Cultural Amygdala – 4).

    Your church has a tumor (Hypothesis: The Cultural Amygdala – 2).

    Hypocrisy will do that to a group groping in the dark.

  • Sabine- Thanks for the extended quote on truth. Spot on.

    Pat – Ulvfugl’s posts were informative and thought provoking, in stark contrast to your usual one, which I sort of agree with, but am getting tired of seeing over and over. Tell us about your cat, or your life or something!

    Bud- Sometimes it seems like a big bunch of Monty Pythoner’s posting here, which I enjoy, being enamoured of the Absurd…

    Pat is one example, out there in the ocean treading water and chanting his mantra while waiting for the Titanic to list and sink. (Me, I’m on board, playing in the orchestra, wondering if this tuba will float.)

    Robin is another example. It’s hard to converse with him since all his words have a definition totally different from the ones I carry in my head, or in any standard dictionary. And even when he defines those words, the definition itself is full of words that have a different definition. It’s kind of like the “funny walk”.
    Not sure if it’s him or his ‘religion’, but one or the other is fairly advanced on the autism scale, hence his seeming lack of empathy for elephants etc.
    Like Dylan says, I laugh just to keep fom crying:


  • I am trying to control my death. thinking of what, how, when.

    sometimes it works.

    if one waits to be in terror to make decisions, the brain does not work properly once you are secreting fear hormones. you have to think about it in advance, and get the stuff you need, and practice (in a certain way) if you want to have any chance of going the way you choose. of course, it is far from guaranteed that you will get your way, but if you did not think about it in advance, you are almost sure to miss.


    have a good night…
    once upon a time,
    days lasted 7 hours on earth

  • @sabine for ULG…

    While I agree with your essay; the end where you say, “just let go of everything. ”

    That may be “effortless”, however it is surely not easy for “ordinary”-(not sure what is ordinary)

  • Lust will never end, until…extinction.

    July 14, 2015
    The Mining Industry Never Sleeps

    by John Holt

    “The mining industry, always rapacious in its desires. Is now setting its sights on 2,500 acres in the Emigrant Peak area of Montana’s Paradise Valley, a spectacular place with rugged mountains, thick forests and cold, crystalline streams that drift down on the Yellowstone River. As usual, gold is the main quarry in this effort. Lucky Minerals Inc”


  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/07/14/what-its-like-when-your-job-is-to-predict-the-end-of-humanity/

    What it’s like when your job is to predict the end of humanity

    As recently as 2009, Camille Parmesan had a career that most scientists can only dream of.

    That year, the University of Texas professor was named one of Atlantic Monthly’s 27 “Brave Thinkers” for her efforts to save species whose habitats are threatened by climate change.

    The distinction — which placed Parmesan on a list alongside Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg and Barack Obama — arrived two years after she shared a Nobel Peace Prize with Al Gore for serving as a lead author of the Third Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

    But beneath the acclaim, Parmesan recalls, her work left her “professionally depressed” and panicked — so much so that she eventually abandoned her life in the United States for a new one on the other side of the Atlantic, according to the environmental news website Grist.

    “To be honest, I panicked 15 years ago — that was when the first studies came out showing that Arctic tundras were shifting from being a net sink to being a net source of CO2,” she told Esquire’s John H. Richardson for a recent piece about the emotional toll of climate science. “That along with the fact this butterfly I was studying shifted its entire range across half a continent — I said this is big, this is big. Everything since then has just confirmed it.”

    [further down, we have this “interpretation” by the writer]

    As climate change accelerates, weather patterns around the world become more extreme and models become more dire, scientists find themselves fighting a war on two fronts. The first battleground is a professional one and carries with it the burden of charting humanity’s potential demise, all while enduring targeted attacks that, according to Esquire, include “death threats, summonses from a hostile Congress, attempts to get them fired, legal harassment, and intrusive discovery demands so severe they had to start their own legal-defense fund.” [okay]

    The second front is a personal one and involves finding ways to maintain hopefulness when days are spent digging into apocalyptic scenarios that go largely unnoticed — or fiercely dismissed — by the general public. [bwah-hah-haaaa: and you’re HOPEFUL?]

    [there’s more]

  • Adoption? Foster parenthood? Of course not.


    Meteorologist Eric Holthaus of Slate has also written about the “existential dread” that comes with studying the environment. He gave up flying and wrote about considering a vasectomy, contemplating the perspective that bringing more people into the world can only make things worse. He changed his mind, deciding that — even though the future is uncertain — a child was a reason to work towards and hope for a better world. “It’s impossible to be hopeless with a newborn,” he writes.


  • Thanks for the great work, Guy. I love it when you channel your inner mystic! Mucho thanks to Dillon Thompson, also. I really enjoyed the conversation.

    As I have mentioned before, Guy, I love your ability to stop. You have learned to stop. I quoted the Koji previously, who said, “We are trying to divine a way to teach you to stop.”

    It is impossible to stop, not because of evolution, and not because of inherent biological imperatives, or any other mechanistic explanation for reality. Our language constructs, our unconscious patterns through which we interpret and experience our personal realities, have layers and layers, and more and deeper layers of power over our entire human experience.

    The kinds of language constructs that allow us to live in a world like western psychosis creates cannot also get us out of those constructs. In western psychosis (delusionally referred to as “western civilization”), the manner in which we must communicate reflects, reinforces, and perpetuates the worldview of our crazy selves. Everything we say reflects our real beliefs about how we see all power in the world, and how we believe “Everything IS.”

    Western psychosis has been fatally successful in establishing “man’s” separation from all the rest of nature. For several thousands of years, some people have known indisputably that “man” is above the animals. Not the “other” animals, as was the only way to understand it in indigenous cultures. No, western worldview meant all those non-human creatures of a distinctly different and inferior nature, which cannot be seen any way other than inferior. These constructs allow us to enslave, exterminate, and torture animals regularly. Then there is man’s ingenuity, man’s greatness, man’s many discoveries, man’s ability to adapt, man’s dominion, man’s authority, man, man, man, man, man. Why, man was made in God’s image.

    Really, we just think we’re God. That’s what that one’s all about, us wanting to be God. And it’s right there in the Bible in Genesis. Even when we are atheists, however, the prevalent worldview is still that humans are God. We say it differently now, but the idea is the same. We see it discussions about the need to save civilization and humanity, and even discussing how much it will “cost” to “save the environment.”

    Why are we so separate from nature? As a culture we are entirely immersed in a human-centric view of reality that requires us to be separate from nature. Our language and our cultural constructs reinforce such separation until we all now find ourselves in a world of pavement, chemicals and little boxes, shut away from any real nature most of our lives.

    From these foundational premises, all other language will issue. These premises dictate the topics we can discuss, whether those topics will be subjects or objects, the acceptable emotional association and relationship precepts allowed in connection to those topics, which topics can be “real” and those that cannot, and so on. In a profoundly destructive (sick) society, we lack the vocabulary to allow us to understand ourselves and our right place in nature.

  • “When I was 5 years old, my mother always said happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They said I didn’t understand the assignment and I told them they didn’t understand life.” (John Lennon)

  • Thank you Carolyn for that essay. Grief is so painful and uncomfortable, I think most people would rather avoid it at all costs. I know that’s true for me. When I see the posts about grief support groups, I think to myself, “I would rather gouge my eyes out with a fork than sit through that.” But the times when I have allowed myself to truly grieve, I am much better off than when I’ve remained in denial. It doesn’t go away, and it’s just as painful if not worse.

  • glad to see you in such good form Gerald…you’re a lot more fun railin’ on red necks than jews. if you don’t mind, I may try to work up a little ditty of ”florida romance”…or ”monroes shithouse blues”…or somethin’ of that there nature. glad you got up on the right side of the bed this amornin’.

  • @AJ “Population issues should be at the very top of the list of concerns, especially with the ecological juggernaut that is approaching.”

    I’ve felt that way for years. At this point, now that it’s too late, it’s simply important not to bring a child into a life of terrible suffering an early death.

    What makes me somewhat philosophical about climate change is my conviction that even if CO2 emissions weren’t warming the atmosphere and acidifying the oceans, we’d still overproduce, overconsume, and destroy the biosphere… and go extinct. The only difference is that it’d take a few hundred years rather than a couple of decades. We’re in the midst of the sixth great extinction. Much of this is happening for reasons *other* than climate change, like destruction of habitat, over harvesting, and the introduction of exotic species. We simply are not capable, as a collective whole, of living in a sustainable fashion.

    I used feel differently. I thought if everyone had enough knowledge, we’d find a way to humanely stabilize our population and live sustainably. Discovering this isn’t the case has been the biggest disappointment of my life. As such, it’s appropriate that human extinction will happen during our natural life span (we created this mess), rather than innocent descendants some 800 years hence.


  • Nasrudin sometimes took people for trips in his boat. One day a fussy pedagogue hired him to ferry him across a very wide river. As soon as they were afloat the scholar asked whether it was going to be rough.
    ‘Don’t ask me nothing about it,’ said Nasrudin.
    ‘Have you never studied grammar?’
    ‘No,’ said the Mulla.
    ‘In that case, half your life has been wasted.’
    The Mulla said nothing.

    Soon a terrible storm blew up. The Mulla’s crazy cockleshell was filling with water.
    He leaned over towards his companion.
    ‘Have you ever learnt to swim?’
    ‘No,’ said the pedant.
    ‘In that case, schoolmaster, ALL your life is lost, for we are sinking.’

  • @Sabine, thanks for bringing ulvfugl’s post to our attention. Some people here cannot stand him, but I think he has brilliant perceptions even though I don’t agree with key aspects of some of them.

    @Robin, “wise men do not grieve over the dead or the living.” Exactly.

    I don’t think modern culture is averse to grieving.. I think it grieves too much. Every death of a high-school student for whatever reason now requires grief counseling en masse. A local bigwig insists that what our town absolutely NEEDS is a(nother) war memorial. No one would dare insinuate that the funds for maintaining the cemeteries be cut, or that land put to better use. Hands are wrung over land-use regs that mean “the (existing, gargantuan) Veteran Memorial Cemetery would not have been able to be built” OMG!!!

    Traveling to the site of the Twin Towers to “grieve” is, apparently, a THING.

    Most people are continually grieving, They are in a state of grievance all the time.

    To “grieve” seems to me to mean that you are sad to be Missing Something. To grieve means to me that you think things should have gone Some Other Way.

    If people don’t know what they are missing, they obviously can’t properly grieve for it. I don’t think the remedy for that is to bring people into a grieving space they didn’t know they “needed”. There will be plenty of time to grieve the going-away of the trees and the shops, the cars and the food…

    Grief in and of itself is not a state to be lauded for any particular reason that I can see. Following Illich, I also don’t see the need for “grief professionals” to do the work that we are certainly capable of doing ourselves when needed.

  • My domicile is outside Bangkok, which already has three outlying districts on rationing. Newspaper tells me yesterday that unless it rains soon, there is about ten weeks of water left in the local reservoir.

  • My own understanding is that in terms of the incredibly complex and poorly understood factors that need to be addressed to make a prediction of future states of the global ecology – we are only in a position to make the most vague and inconclusive remarks of what will transpire in a few years, much less in terms of longer time lines. We just aren’t as smart as we like to think ourselves.

    We are just going to have to wait and see how these things work out in the years to come. Our impatience to know and to be able to predict everything is a feature of the modern ego which lacks above all the ability to wait and accept it’s limited ability to determine outcomes. Limited assessments of near term futures are useful for making current decisions, but there is no way to make even those shots conclusive. The role of uncertainty in the workings of the Universe is still poorly respected, in large part due to the egotism noted above.

    In fact the huge part that our flawed human personalities play in the crisis we are facing is constantly ignored by those with a more scientific and technical background. In short, if we were not so screwed up in our minds we would not be enmeshed in the screwed up world that we are largely responsible for creating. The solution to our problems may lie in dimensions far removed from physics and math.

    I am totally onboard with RE’s exemplary determination not to roll over and pretend helplessness in the face of our problems. Giving up all hope has got to be the craziest idea possible as a “solution” to our difficulties. I prefer to go down fighting over indulging that ridiculous cop-out….

    I think some on this blog who are pushing the posture of total hopelessness should be on the Koch Bros. payroll if they are not already. Those gentlemen like nothing better than helpless compliant victims to roll their big corporate machines over. If you could just get a decent number of people to buy your bizarre idea to abandon all hope, it would make it so much easier for the big guys to do their number on the rest of us.

    I am hoping that you guys will adopt my song as a theme for your program of hopelessness so that I can get in on some of the gravy when the Koch’s realize what a gift you are handing them –

    One Final Song

    Just give up hope
    And seal your doom
    You’ll surely feel
    Much better soon…

    As our daytime light grew dimmer still
    It began to slowly sap our will.
    When dark figures first appeared
    We stood and waited as they neared.

    They brought a message neat and tight:
    They announced the dying of the Light.
    And furthermore they said,

    Just give up hope
    For soon you’ll be dead
    So seal your doom
    And you will feel
    Much better very soon

    Through fading vision we prayed
    And then we swayed
    And one by one began to do
    As they had said.

    No sooner had we signed the pledge
    Than a sulfurous rain began to fall
    And the newly baptized ones
    Went forth as they were told
    To bring others into the fold

    And soon the world was filled
    By those who swallowed
    the blackest pill
    And turned their backs
    on heaven’s will.

    Then almost all
    as darkness falls
    Chant together
    like those in thrall:

    Just give up hope
    And seal your doom
    You’ll surely feel
    Much better soon…

    Sabine – It was so gracious of you to drop your mask and let me see what was beneath it. I don’t know what your Master ulvfugl (there’s a name drawn from a bestiary of hell for sure) will think of your daring move, but it gave me a better understanding of how Hitler managed to entrance a lot of good people. I pray for your Soul – the other parts, not so much.

    In truth I have gathered what I came here for, and see no point in continuing. I met some outstanding people who I learned precious things from. I met some others who as Tibetans would say, were my best teachers – because they tested me to see if I could still love them in spite of their nastiness to me. I extend special thanks to them for playing their roles in an exemplary fashion. Your final performance really topped all that off for me, Sabine. In spite of what you aimed at me – I ducked – and I still love the real you, your Soul – which each of us has without exception, however far we may have wandered from it’s precious guidance. Much thanks to all, I leave you with a loving heart and wish the very best to one and all…. Exit this Stage….Enter other ones….

    PS – (Can’t really get rid of me!) One of my very favorite ladies, Naomi Klein (who Lidia calls a “fucking cunt”) has a very insightful article about her trip to the Vatican conference on the environment. Of course those who hate the Pope or Catholicism don’t need to read it. http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/31226-a-radical-vatican

  • “If there is no future, why Grieve?” Just so!

    More thoughts on the grief front: folks in the Victorian era (and not only) had a Huge Grief Industry. HUGE. Did that make them more sensitive to or conscious of the insanity of the policies they wrought on the planet and on their subjugate peoples?

    No, it did not.


    @Bud “Say that to your children, to the elephants, the dolphins, the whales, and to the gorillas and chimpanzees and see how far you get with it.”

    See how far you get with it..? What if you are not trying to “get” anywhere with it? There is nothing about this that has to do with attainment.

    @Dredd, the interview with Cynthia Fernandes at Simple Life Radio back in Sept. 2014 was also good, I thought. Guy sounded more natural and relaxed than at other times, imo, and the topic was really N. T. E. and little mincing of words.


    @Bob S., glad your ordeal has not taken away your spunk! Yes, there is always this sort of “work” lying around to do, and no end of people taking it up.

    We’re encouraged to learn how to “work” at being married, or being successful at a job, or this that or the other thing. No one asks whether these things really Need To Require this much “work”.

    Maybe things being “work” means you shouldn’t be doing them..? Being married to my husband I would never regard as “work”. If anyone thinks that’s the case I would wonder whether something isn’t wrong with the equation to begin with.

    @Wren re. Pat. Indeed.

    @AJ, OMG another one in the Naomi mold.. 🙁

  • So – let’s see if I got it straight — because we won’t worship you spiritual greatness, we must be hitler loving, egomaniacs – hopeless, ridiculous, crazy fakes hiding behind masks, with nicknames drawn from a bestiary of hell (since we hate the Pope and Catholicism) – so you will pray for our souls and move on.

    How sweet.

  • @Mike K.“I still love the real you, your Soul – which each of us has without exception”

    There’s no such thing as a ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’. Our consciousness, which is an outgrowth of our nervous system, is entirely due to and dependent on physical processes occurring in the brain. There’s no ‘ghost in the machine’ only physics and chemistry. The notion of a soul is the ultimate form of ‘hopium’. I mean, who needs a hospitable planet to live on when we can all just float around for eternity in the either as a disembodied conscious entity?

  • “ulvfugl (there’s a name drawn from a bestiary of hell for sure)”

    Origin: It’s Norwegian translation of wolf bird, which is a native American and Scandinavian name for the raven.

  • Just posted today by Scribbler, Hothouse Earth

    According to Japan’s Meteorological Agency, June beat previous all-time hot temperatures of 0.68 C above the 20th Century average set just last year (2014) by 0.08 C.

    Coming in at 0.76 C above the global 20th Century average and about 0.96 C above 1880s values, this past June was the hottest since Japan began taking measures in 1891.

    By comparison, El Nino years 2010 and 1998 came in as tied for third hottest at 0.51 C above 20th Century average levels respectively.

  • Wester, good luck. Thanks for being you.

  • I really like this essay Caroline, thank you so much. I have been doing a lot of grieving over the course of the last month or so, and coming to terms with what I want to do with the balance of my life. I refuse to sit on my hands and get plugged into the corporate machine, so it looks like I will be an activist, and will be somewhat homeless/traveling hobo wwoofer. It scares me not having a safety net, but knowing that society is going down in flames soon helps me.

  • JC Dolph- I squandered my two posts yesterday before I saw your post about the 11 year-old boy on the last thread. Thank you for sharing that with us. That’s one of those true moments that really… I have no words. I don’t know the specific circumstances and I don’t know you personally, but I’m glad that boy had you there to hug him in the end. I hope we all have that kind of generous spirit with us when it’s our turn. While I don’t believe in any kind of traditional God, I do believe in Love, and your actions are the closest I can think of to what real Love looks like. Thank you!

    I so appreciate your two posts today, too. Right on.

  • Using observation and reasoning, the only logical conclusion that one can arrive at is that there is only one sentient being in the universe: oneself. There is no way to observe another’s sentience as one’s own, and hence no way to confirm its existence.

    It is not a change of subject from observation and reasoning to pursue both observation and reasoning to the conclusion that there is no sentience other than that which one can actually observe.

    Attachment theory and emotion management on the basis of observation and reasoning while disregarding the seer, devolves exclusively to meat robots: machines with no sentience whatsoever. Turing tests are an example of the method of projection and justification of an attribution of sentience onto those machines, a workaround to avoid strict adherence to observation and reasoning.

    @Robin, “wise men do not grieve over the dead or the living.” Exactly.”

    The operative word is “wise”, therein referring to realised ones. Tradition has it that there are realised and near-realised ones even among non-human animals. Grieving may be useful to many, but it cannot be generalised to every human. Mr. J. Christ rather than grieving prayed for the gents who were doing him in.

    As long as one is in thrall to so much as a grain of sand in the universe, the idea of sloughing off hope and expectations will be equated with “giving up” hope and “giving in” to despair. For such persons, action will continue to be motivated by expectations, extending their thraldom.

  • @Robin: Using observation and reasoning, the only logical conclusion that one can arrive at is that there is only one sentient being in the universe: oneself. There is no way to observe another’s sentience as one’s own, and hence no way to confirm its existence.


    So, if that’s the case, why do you grumble and complain when Bud posts his long expositions about attachment theory, etc. here on the main site, rather than in the forums?

    Since the only sentient being in your universe is yourself, what’s the point of complaining about what you yourself are doing?

    Mebbe you’re just doing it to amuse or annoy yourself (since there’s no one else to amuse or annoy). The dance of LILA, and all that sort of thing.

  • From the article:
    “Even though our action cannot undo it or reverse the inevitable, it is the least we can do in response to environmental ecocide, and it is a means of practicing good manners toward all of the species that have not yet vanished.”


  • Sabine,
    Nice work 🙂
    You landed a little fish because the little ones are not very great in wisdom. The bait is far too nutritious for them and they cant stomach it so they usually vomit it back up again complete with their own bile. The big fish will tend to take little bites and let it digest and decide whether to have more. Its obviously easier on the stomach and mind to digest things this way; you get the full value of the bait which no longer becomes bait but food.

    Mike k
    Youre so full of shit that I wonder that despite all the hot air in your inflated ego how you manage to maintain such an altitude. The nazi card is a nuclear option not a first form of “defence” 😉

  • Babajingo – Belated thanks; you caught my drift. I wasn’t going for the attachment psyche as implied by Bud Nye but appreciate his thoughts as well; definitely a stratospheric IQ there.

    My initial post was to deflect away from what, imo, appeared to be the equivalent of a schoolyard brawl. I found it completely contrary to what attracted me to the whole EOE/GM/NBL/NTHE/OLR agenda in the first place. I was looking for like-minded souls, hoping for additional wise counsel to share with my children. In light of other bservations and circumstances, I’m thinking this wasn’t the the right genus.

    As for the “specifics”, without violating HIPAA, the little boy had AIDS. He had been physically abused, and thus infected, by a family member who denied everything. I got to know him while volunteering at the hospital and during my chemo treatments. Yes, I have Cancer. Like all of us, I am dying; probably sooner since ceasing all of the invasive treatments. To give others comfort eases my pain and makes getting up in the morning worthwhile.

  • Warming leads to longer flights and more emissions, new study finds



    Climate change is causing wind patterns to change over the Pacific Ocean, leading to longer commercial airline flight times and causing airplanes to burn more fuel and emit more greenhouse gases.

    Those are the conclusions of a Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution study published Monday in the journal Nature Climate Change, showing that the shifting jet stream over the Pacific Ocean is increasing flight times between Hawaii and the U.S. mainland, leading to more of the pollution that fuels climate change. [more]

  • Mike K,

    Please find out what a Nazi really is. You’re using the word as a snarl word which shows ignorance. You’re too old for that.

    Maybe contemplate the word “snarl”. Isn’t that a characteristic of “creatures from hell”? You might like to stop snarling.

    This link will explain the history and context of fascism and National Socialism much better than I ever could. It’s just the first part of a very informative essay. It’s worth exploring.

    It could help you to get a few things straight.


    But on the other hand, if I’m to be a Nazi in the way you bandy this word about, then so be it. All you do is show your ignorance.

    And I’m curious: apart from practising all versions of Eastern spirituality, are you also a born-again Christian? Bits of your latest poem seem to imply that. I especially liked “the sulphurous rain” and “dark figures appearing” bit.

    Oh, to be one of the dark figures! You definitely have unmasked me. Well done!

  • Overpopulation is an immense problem. I have pointed out before,though,and will again now that the main underlying reason for climate disruption is industrial civilisation burning fossil fuels. If we had a steady state economy of one billion or whatever number,we would still reach a similar predicament to the one we are in now,if that civilisation was burning fossil fuels. It would just take longer.

  • The Laws of Thermodynamics and Trees
    picture a giant redwood tree next to a corn stalk.
    the giant tree stores much more energy than the corn stalk.

    2,000 years ago the earth had 1 trillion tons of trees.
    we now have about 500 billion tons of trees.
    a corn stalk cannot hold as much energy as a tree.
    trees are living batteries of energy that support life on earth.
    we are draining the battery for life on earth.

    My grief = mother died when I was four years old, was raised in extreme abuse, spent years on the streets of Toronto, son died when I was 40. that all hurt. but here is what really made me cry inside.

    I never read the following story, because I can’t, NTE seems like a joke, readers know I swim long and hard in these waters, and still, I cannot read the following story for fear of overwhelming grief.

    Raju The Elephant Cries After Being Rescued Following 50 Years Of Abuse, Chains

    My Own Special Brand Of Mumbo Jumbo
    We don’t fear death as much as
    we fear the loss of our own egos.
    Spirit = Life
    Spirituality = Death

    NTE Grief = We are too stupid to live + (Naomi Klein x The Pope)

  • Carolyn Baker,

    ” … it is not enough to just feel our feelings about the obscenity of planetary pillage that the human species has wrought … ”
    In our NTHE belief system, the human species will become extinct in the near term.

    We can consider that most humans have already lived and died well before our addiction to fossil fuels evolved.

    The great bulk of those human beings who have lived and died did not participate in what began as an embryo circa 1750 (“Industrial Revolution”).

    That bulk of humanity knew nothing of fossil fuels, or that in the future fossil fuels would be engineered into the lifeblood of civilization, to then bring about global warming induced climate change.

    Likewise, they knew nothing of the future global warming induced climate change that would lead to extinctions.

    Nor did they participate in fossil fuel industry which did not yet even exist.

    They had no part in NTHE since to them it was not even conceived of, nor was it “near” in their lifetime.

    I can’t understand, then, why we would blame them (“the human species has wrought“) for what took place in our time, the industrial revolution and the nuclear weapon revolution (consider The Psychology of the Notion of Collective Guilt).

    Nor would I even see it as just to blame the bulk of humans living today.

    I would blame only the guilty.

    NTHE is hypothetically to be caused by recent, near-term events that are leading toward either nuclear war apocalypse, or climate change apocalypse.

    NTHE is not ancient history, it is current, very modern history.

    Thus, I consider it to be a false accusation against innocent people to accuse them of what the fossil fuel industry has engineered (The Private Empire’s Social Media Hit Squads, Oil-Qaeda: The Indictment).

    I grieve because of the cluelessness Alton C. Thompson wrote about two posts back in his essay “Degrees of Cluelessness“.

    Not dealing with the cause of a problem, but focusing on the effect of a problem is unavailing.

    “What say you?”
    BTW: I travel the oil-qaeda blogosphere often.

    You are almost as unpopular there as I am.

    Evidently, that means that you are aware of them, and say or write things which they do not like.


  • MO MO MO,

    I have a comment in the censorship cue.

    Please delete this notice so I am not doubled down.

    Thanks in advance.

  • .
    Thank you for being here. 🙂
    Even though your path through this life has been so very painful, I’m grateful that you’re able to share it with us here.
    I cried to even read the title of the article you linked. Some acts are unforgivable. Torture and abuse of innocent animals and children are at the top of the list.
    Again thanks for being here, and thanks for caring.

  • With fond thoughts of Ben the Donkey;

    He despaired,He was sad to the bone

    For what we’ve done to our beautiful home

    So he felt such relief

    When he discovered “Good” Grief

    And paid money to not cry alone

  • Robert (Wren and thestormcrow): i feel the same way, and i appreciate having come into contact with you all here.

  • Robert,

    I really liked your last comment.

    I would not be able to read the story about Raju either. Like you, I can imagine any possible cruelty and understand that there is no end to the cruelties inflicted by our species on the others. It’s relentless and part of the fall-out from putting humans at the centre and, as you say so well “draining the battery for life on Earth”.
    Some people just don’t get that, yet this is the basis for all understanding with regard to NTE.

    And, just in case somebody misinterprets this as misanthropic, humans who inflict cruelty on animals will not think twice about being cruel to other humans. Furthermore, people who disregard the life of animals will find it easy to abuse and use just about anything here on Earth. This is plain to see for all who care to look, every day, all around the world.

    Living with this takes a lot of courage but some images are just too much, especially for people who can’t switch off their imagination. Like me and Wren, you seem to be one of them. In a way, that’s a blessing and isn’t that what living actually is? Feeling, partaking, imagining what it would be like to be the Other, any other life form. You can do that, and it shows us something of the real Robert – thanks for that.

    However, thankfully there are some happy endings for animals, even in our own lives.
    Some time ago, Wren told us here about rescuing an abused dog. It sounded quite an undertaking and needed courage and determination. I’ve never forgotten that story. OGF is another one who has told us about these things in her life.

    I’ve had some “animal rescue experiences” too.
    When this happens in my life, it grounds me, because no matter what, I have to keep feeling. It’s real, visceral and stops a person from navel-gazing.

  • @ thestormcrow: Nice! And on topic! ☺

  • yup…thanks Robert…I can’t read it either…but did you have to make me cry before breakfast?

  • .
    From the “I can’t believe this crap” department:
    Today, agriculture “consumes 70% of the world’s fresh water, and too much of it is wasted” according to the World Bank. We need to “become wiser about water.” Why? Because “agricultural water generates 25% of heat-trapping greenhouse gas emissions that lead to climate change.”

    Ultimately the goal is to feed not just the seven billion living on Planet Earth today, but the 10 billion predicted by 2050. Yet, even the World Bank’s spokesman admits that won’t be easy: “Hunger has many causes, including ignorance, injustice, and violence, and there is no single solution that will guarantee that every person, every day, everywhere, has enough to eat. But, as incredulous as it sounds, even though one in nine people go hungry today, it is within our power to eliminate extreme poverty and hunger by 2030.” Maybe.
    Really? Idiots! The problem is Overpopulation! We don’t need to “Feed the Hungry,” we need to “Starve the Masses” in order to achieve a sustainable population that, even so, will still be hard-pressed to survive the coming violent results of our past stupidity.

    Looking forward to war, famine, and pestilence.
    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window, with a cat on my lap.
    Sadly, this is what we’ve come to:
    The Voluntary Extinction Movement says:
    “…thou shalt not procreate.”

    The Church of Euthanasia says:
    “Save the planet, kill yourself.”

  • @ Sabine


    You like truth. I love truth.
    Let’s dance.

    A dance of peace. I promise.

    I won’t quote you, but i’ll read again your post before posting this.

    – Am I on some high or something? Well, not when I wrote that post mostly addressed to Mike K. No beer, no alcohol of any type taken, except the single beer I take daily, but it was several hours before. One beer. Two sometimes on Friday night. Or 2 or even 3 glasses of wine on a Saturday. But no drugs, none. I do remember, some ten years ago, sitting in a pick up, those guys were exchanging a cigarette with very peaceful grins – it must have been you know what. But I made sure not to inhale. If I did inhale I trust my lungs are now clean as a baby’s because someone told me that she had read or heard that after 7 years smoking cigarettes, your lungs are finally like new. Do I believe that? Wel I do, because believing it helps me forget I smoked cigarettes till 1989.
    – No aspirins, no drugs of any kind. Maybe 10 aspirins in all in 2014, and that’s it for drugs.
    – Coffee, as just now, two in the morning. This makes my fingers talkative on the keyboard. I just had one coffee. One more an hour from now. Then orange juice. But coffee gives a high.
    – Music, yes, I plead guilty. I get high on music. Sometimes I put some on. I’ll do it right now. Parijat, a German musician. Love the guy. Soothing. Some might call him New Age. Labels. This one doesn’t stick. Not to him. Unique. Yes, this one sticks. Okay, I just put the music, the 2nd piece from the CD (available on iTunes) Healing the Body, by Turiya Hanover. Two pieces on this. First one is Turiya guiding a relaxing visualisation, with Parijat’s music in the background, half an hour. Second piece is only Parijat’s intrumental piece. A piece I sometimes hear while I work. This is the very piece I was listening to when I wrote that post on July 13, addressed to Mike K mostly, but a few others as well. That very piece. It’s on now. I might get the same high. + the coffee. I’m all set. Water. While we have it.
    – But this was an attack, water. It felt like a barb when I wrote it. So I ask your forgiveness. I made a promise. A dance of peace.
    – A bit more volume.
    – You *were right*. I was on a high. I was coming to NBL with the intent of posting something ELSE, that would have been addressed to Mike K. But would have been much less cheerful and cuddling. I had read something Mike had written:

    mike k Says:
    July 11th, 2015 at 11:06 am

    “I know something about cults and how they are formed. Some here would like nothing better than to make that our atmosphere. The interesting thing about cults is that they are more the creations of the members of a group than their leader. Often the person nominally leading a group is far less cultic than a sub-group within the larger group who begin to define the group in their own cultic way. The leader may be unaware of how his message is being distorted beyond recognition by these “true believers” who are busy with trying to whip everybody in line with their own version of whatever the leader is out trying to get across. I think this is what happened to Rajneesh when he began his gathering in Oregon.”

    I was not happy with Mike having written that. He is very decent, I realize, though. He says “I think.” He is open to the possibility of not having it right or exactly right.

    But I missed some subtleties when reading that. I felt Mike was not attacking Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh), but “thinking” that his disciples were to blame. I felt a sting.

    Mike had it partly right here, but partly wrong. The people who loved Osho were not responsible of the acts of a criminal gang who had taken control. The innocent were not responsible for the acts of the criminals. And yet… they had been part of the problem. Their not trusting their instincss at times had allowed criminal elements to have their way… Innocent, but part of the problem.

    When I came to post – it was to post a reply to Mike about what he had said above.

    So, my HIGH came when, having already written what I wanted to post, but first readind the recent posts from July 12 to July 13, I saw a post by Mike K welcoming me, and thanking me. It blew my mind. I discarded the “answer” I had prepared to his July 11 message, and I responded immediately, spontaneously, to his most recent post, in which he was welcoming me.

    I was on a high, not only because of his welcoming me, but because of the contrast. I was in a sober mood. Not cheerful. I had pondered whether to answer or not the part of his post about cultic and Rajneesh (above). I had tried 3 or 4 times during the day to write a tentative reply. And anger became an issue each time. I just felt I was “reacting,” to my anger, to the sting I had felt. And I knew I had no easy answer because Mike was partly right, even if he said “I think.” He had nailed part of the problem: the disciples, not the criminal gang who took control of things, but all the others. Who were there, around that man, to meditate, to try the meditations he was creating or adapting or commenting on. A whole group of people whose sole connection to each other – beyond cultural differences, or age differences – was their affection and love for that man, Osho. Their very innocence and desire to just enjoy themselves — and meditate and *work* in a desert to create an oasis – had been used agains them. And agains the one they called their master. Their NOT doing something had been used against them. And also their fear. Their fear had been used against them.

    A woman, a powerful woman, Sheela, had started running Rajneeshpuram. Osho himself, a mystic with a frail help, was staying in his room, not talking to people on that ranch, but greeting them while passing on a road in a car. Sole contact. The rest was work work work 12 hours a day minimum, because there was something to build. Don’t ask me why Osho came to America, it’s a koan to me. But I tried to give my impressions on that in a previous post, during the intense chat I had with Mike mostly, and also mo flow, around June 18-20. I don’t know all. And I’m no Osho scholar, as I wrote then. A lover of Osho means I love the man. I do his meditation. I’m not a follower. I follow no one. I follow his meditations, if I follow anything, as a zen practitioner follows zazen – which I have done before discovering Osho’s meditations.

    On that ranch, there was a feeling of a threat outside. It was genuine. Death threats of all kinds. And christian fanatics were incensed at having such a commune red-clad people and their “guru” doing their thing in the desert, an overgrazed ranch in the middle of nowhere. There was very real threats. For the full story, Diamond Days with Osho, by Shunyo, a disciple, is a far out insight on all that period, and much else. And no compromise in that book about the role innocent played in the demise of that ranch, and in the ultimate jailing and poisoning of Osho in a US jail. A poisoning which led to his death. There are also a lot of hate books about Osho. So, like everything else, the good sources, the genuine ones have to be found. In June, I also provided a link to a site by a man who is in no way a disciple of Osho and who sees mistakes in Osho’s actions. But that man knows about Osho’s innocence and argues it quite clearly. So, people who have no knowledge of all this might be helped by reading him. Here http://truthaboutosho.blogspot.ca/

    But I’m digressing from my HIGH. Or am I?

    That Sheela and her gang took charge of protecting the ranch against all threats. Which meant people were searched before coming in. Any hippie-like disciple carrying his joint was in trouble. It was made clear that upon stepping aboard a bus, in Portland, that would carry you to “the Ranch” (Rajneeshpuram), you had to be free of any drugs. If you felt like smoking your little joint and had carried it you were in trouble. I was in such a bus and I saw, upon arriving at the Ranch, a guy be put back aboar no apology no question asked. The dogs sniffed something, and there was something. You’ve been warned, no drugs, no little joint. Bye! You’re sorry? Your problem. Too late. It was justified by saying that if the US authorities found any drugs on the Ranch, this put the very survival of it at risk. No fucking compromise there. Helicopter with arm guard inside above Osho’s car as he was greeting his disciples. AND an armed vehicle ahead of him and one behind. Same thing during sitting meditations around Osho. Guards. Weapons.

    All justified, it seemed. So far so good, but… That “but” had better not be asked or said outloud, because then you might be sent packing. No dissension. Rules. Threats outside. Behave yourself accordingly. Sounds familiar. Sounds like a cult? Sounds cultic, as Mike put it? Fear. This is what fear does to people. Loving people becoming silent, not trusting their hunches, not daring questioning. Being bullied. Bluntly.

    And, one of the lessons learned the tough way is that when faced with an outside threats, a big one, death threats that are real, you need tough people inside. Sheela was such a tough one. So… when you have sheep – loving people who just want to work and meditate, but are afraid to take a stand against their own fear and against bullying, then wolves take control. My apology to animals and wolves in particular – man is the predator, THE ultimate predator. Wolves just do their thing.

    Mike K was right – at least partly. And it stung for me. And I had finally decided to post something in reply, at least to give a more informed point of view. When I came to post this and read his message, I got my HIGH.

    Here is what I had intended to post to Mike and never did:

    @ Mike K


    – It seems important for you to create a distance between yourself and Osho. To me, you look like someone trying to convince himself he is doing the right thing. You’re right on one point: the hate campaign against Osho has been quite successful, and so it is not comfortable being in any way associated with him.
    – You’re also right about mistakes having been made. My take is that those mistakes were made by his disciples – and you seem to agree on that. I’d go further, innocent people, really innocent, became part of the problem. And there are lessons in that. Those lessons were learned. The hard way – because those thousands of innocent people finally woke up and realized their master, the most loved one for them, had been jailed, then poisoned. It is a hard lesson to learn. Now, I am grateful to Osho and I am helped tremendously by the meditation techniques he created or adapted or commented on, like Vigyan Bhairav Tantra. This doesn’t make it easy being associated with him. But I know he is utter innocence and love. And although I am sad to see him despised, I am happy that some people question the whole hate movement against him.

    Sabine, this was not a first draft. It must have been the 4th, because every time I touched all that anger arose and put me on attack mode. Fear. Paranoia. Attack. I waited. When the above draft came up, I decided to post it for Osho’s sake, for truth’s sake. But I was not sure at all it was a centered position, not sure at all it was coming from a positive state of mind and heart. I decided to go ahead even if I did not know for sure I was not attacking. It is rare I’ll do that. There’s no use.

    So you can easily imagine my surprise and my HIGH when Mike K welcomed me so warmly.

    I still had in mind Sheela’s power trips. But mostly I still had in mind the hard lesson learned: you’re innocent but you say nothing when you feel someone else might have been slighted… then you’re part of the problem. Not you the door they are knocking on, so you stay put. Fear. I and many others, many others, had let fear be our master.

    Because of course Sheela and her type is the type needed when an outside threat is there, isn’t it? Tough people. Bullies even. Well, this whole frame of mind, allowing bullies to rule the place, is a very dangerous game. I learned it. People who loved Osho learned it. Osho lovers. Yes. They paid dearly to learn that lesson.

    A dance of peace, I said. I would have liked to make it shorter, not to anger you or others. I could not. Because of coffee? Partly. But not sure I could have written this one shot first draft without coffee, and music. Another Peace by Parijat, from Turiya’s CD Awakening of the Heart.

    On a high?

    Let’s talk Hopium now. Am I on Hopium? Yes and no. I do hope Guy is wrong, somewhere, at least a little bit. But I know he is not wrong. Or if he is, it is about details. He can’t control how methane will act and how fast il will go in the atmosphere.

    Robert Callaghan posted a Peter Wadham video clip that is quite chilling a few days ago. My god (I lower case god because I do not believe in a god).

    Guy’s stuff is rock solid. I read several times his whole essay – the very heart of this site is, for me, that essay, Guy’s Climate-Change Summary and Update. And I go back there often.

    And I watched all his presentations in 2014, a few in 2015. I downloaded several podcasts of his to listen when I go for walks. A doomer.

    Do I hope for a miracle? Yes. Do I believe a scientific miracle is possible? No. Do I believe aliens or god (the big Teddy Bear) will save us? No. Do I believe in any other type of miracle? Yes. Do I believe that such other type of miracles can save the world. Don’t make me laugh. This is nuts. Methane. Gigatons. I watched Natalia Shakhova on that, heard her husband, Semiletov, talking about a 50 Gig burp highly possible at any time. Miracles? And now, El Nino. Maybe 40 years ago there was still a slim chance. And this is what I wrote in my very first post, in August 2014. We’re too late even theoretically. Even if as humans we *wanted* to do something else than war and destruction of everything, even if each human wanted that and collaboration in that project reached unheard of levels, creativity, etc., my personal impression, personal, is that it would not work. Methane won’t allow it. Digging it somehow as Peter Wadham suggest we research about… he suggests we use another technology, that of fracking, to explore and maybe and… too late to explore. Methane is there. Or not yet there, I mean. The burps are coming, and El Nino.

    I know that. But you saw a little yes in that paragraph above. Other type of miracle. Crazy or what. Mystical miracles. Miracles or an unknown nature. Unknowns unknowns and such? I come from a scientific background. I was reading French translations of Scientific American as a teenager. I’m too rational. Will I strive to create a more living world in spite of all this? Yes. Why. Because. Because whether it’s all in our synapses and such, whether meditation has a scientific base, as many argue (the very zazen posture, once mastered, creates soothing, because feet press certain acupuncture points, and Tibetans have demonstrated the scientific bases of meditation, their effects on brain waves and such), or whether there is a “spiritual spirituality,” related to… matter being energy or something like that. I don’t know. But I know that going down, depressed, and further down and unconscious, and I have been there, really, well… I like to kick the bottom of the lake or of the pool and come back up for air. An instinct? In my synapses? Of course. Why would I go against that? Wolf is doing his thing, her thing. Me to. I’m part of life. If I can intervene in my processes and feel better because of it, should I just not do it? Meditating helps me? Should I instead get drunk? If this whole thing is futile, then there is freedom, I can chose what I do. This is what I do, follow my nature, kicking the bottom of the lake and coming up for air and light. Because it feels good. And not doing things that make me feel bad. Attacking people make me feel bad. So I try not to do it. Why suffer? Eating makes me feel good. I do it. My music. I’m not vegan, not vegetarian. But I eat very little animal flesh. No mammals. No red meat. But some fish and chickend. Maybe twice a week. I live up north. I can hardly imagine living up north and not eating meat. And as someone said in a post, if you have to transport and burn fule for it, why carry fruit from the south? Or nuts? No judgment here on people eating meat. I do. Indians were living here before. They did. How could they have not? Does that mean they were less good? But if I can I mostly eat chick peas and such.

    I try to limit the harm I do. Even if some may think this is futile. It is an inner need. A cultural one to a point, of course. I’m no immune to the culture around me. I’m not a saint. But I try to live with what I call awareness. I haven’t invented the concept. Paying attention to the effects of what I do or say. But I’m mostly a self-centered person. So I have tricks. I pay attention to my emotions and moods. Some moods are bad for driving – might be dangerous to your health and that of others. Some moods are bad for discussing, or for sending an email, or posting. Not constructive. In MY case. I try to respect that, and here I am talking about respecting myself. I’ve been down and everything, but in the end it is either you keep going or you end it. If you keep going, might as well make the ride pleasant. Instinct.

    So, after covering the HIGH part (am I on a high?), and the Osho part (as relates to a conversation with Mike, mostly, but also to bullying and to fear and innocent bystanders letting bullies have their way), I tried to tackle the “true blood or not thing” because in your post you mention this is the only blog dedicated to NTE. Implied in that criticism is the fact that I am talking about something else, and so NOT RESPECTING others here who would rather I stay with NTE. Two things on that: Guy is taking care of the NTE part, and I am just absorbing information here. I have no input on that subject. Nothing I could say would add to the facts and info provided by Guy, and by a few others, of course. But Guy is taking care. Second thing is HOW to respond to NTE as a reality or threath so real that… barring miracles of an unknown nature, is hundred percent real. Guy has also provided his insights on this. On this, I have my own experience, coping with tough situations. We all have a unique experience. One has been gravely ill, or grief, or accidents, hundreds of possibilities. Guy is suggesting an approach, based on respect of each other, love. I agree. And I have my own experience on this. My unique contribution is about meditation. Not that no one else here knows about it, but because I have experienced some approaches that others might not know – and which might help. I said what I had to say about this, and I certainly don’t intend to do it again. I also posted a long rant in the part of the forum that Hayduke’s Monkey created, his Lounge, and by doing so I also did something wrong with regards to Hayduke’s. I used his lounge, which he created to move away from all heavy stuff and energies and just relax (I might have it wrong here about his exact intentions)… So, I used his lounge to post a long thing on my experience with meditation and quite a bit of ranting about nihilists. Doing so, and with such a long post, I was rude. And afterward I felt bad, even if I felt what I had to say was important. I had taken a lot more place with my thing – quite serious – than the invitation extended to me by Hayduke had been about. Way too far. Doing so, I sort of ruined that place of peace. My intentions were good, but good intentions…

    So I apologized. First I sent an email to mo flow, the moderator, to whom I am very grateful. He suggested very kindly, in a very sensitive way, that what I had done was in fact going against the implied good manners. I’m quite green on blogs. I’m a private person, yes. So I have a lot to learn. mo flow explained that when an invitation is made, people should keep to a certain limit as far as size, out of respect, and wait till things build by themselves before posting more. He did it without insulting me, didn’t blame me. But I got the message.

    So I tried to create an apology to Hayduke, a light one. But I’m not good at lightness. I’m pretty serious. The only lightness comes to me when I do meditation. Then, afterward, I might laugh easily, and be in a good mood. Lightness of a different nature also comes when praises come my way. Whe Mike K was so nice with me the other day – and especically when I was about to post a very sobering message – I just became so light and made a bit of a fool of myself. But I did no harm. Except if I took important place reserved for an important message that we are all about to die and should just stop trying to have a good time. What I did, though, is I kept that message rather short, considering I wanted to pay tribute to Mike for his kindness. And it was a light message, which is rare for me, being such a serious person. So I thought a light message was like taking a popcorn break during a tough movie. It was okay.

    But maybe I was too self-centered and did not pay due respect. I don’t know. If I realize this is so, I’ll make sure I apologize. I’m not very good with that, so I try to avoid situations where I have to. If I start attacking and being unkind, I know I’ll feel bad and want to apologize. Instinct. Like the wolf. Synapses. I try to respect mine.

    I said this would be a slow dance, or rather a peace dance. I’m just stopping typing after more than 2 hours. Non-stop. I stop and post, without rereading. All I have to do now is go and read again your post, because I sais I would do it before posting. But this frightens me. It scared me when I read that yesterday night.

    And then I’ll post this.

    I promised a dance of peace. This was mine.

  • pat,

    Is your congregation having trouble getting those quick-demise drugs, or are you just here to kill-off environmental activists for Oil-Qaeda?

    I asked one of your fellow churchies how come the congregation is so large.

    They intimated that they were all waiting for the pastor to lead the way, to lead the flock out of here.

    You being an evangelist for those the fearful, should tell the pastor that the congregation is growing faster, percentage wise, than the surrounding population.

    It seems that the word is out so people figure your church is the safest place to be during a mass suicide campaign.

    As I left the door-step of your congregation’s building, I noticed that those inside began to sing a hymn “Ode To the Female Sacculina” (On The Origin of Propaganda, 2).

  • .
    I am not a member. Not a proponent. Not an opponent. Just putting it out there.
    The problem is Overpopulation! We don’t need to “Feed the Hungry,” we need to “Starve the Masses” in order to achieve a sustainable population that, even so, will still be hard-pressed to survive the coming violent results of our past stupidity. That is, of course, if you WANT humans to have any chance – the bigger question is “Which Humans?”
    Would you rather commit suicide or be exterminated?
    The problem: overpopulation, overconsumption, and the cumulative consequences of both.
    The Solution? How is easy, Why is easy, When is easy, What is easy, but the WHO, that is the hard part! But, the bigger question is: Then what?
    Live simply, kill nothing. Eat only that which falls from the trees, sleep on the ground, drink from the river.

  • ed:
    Good point. However, observation and reasoning as an exclusive basis of one’s world view is not my claim: it leaves out the starting point, the observer, the reasoner.

    Indirect knowledge is through the senses and memory (parokshagnyana). Prior to that is the knower, observer, reasoner and the primal knowledge (aparokshagnyana).

  • Sabine,
    Again I find myself blown away by your words, so eloquent.

    Re the dog rescue… So much of what I’ve done in my life has been nothing but a waste of time. All the hours, days, weeks, wasted… trying to enact change through ‘legitmate’ channels. I came to despise the term “win/win situation”. I saw our little rag tag environmental activist group evolve into a impotent 501k pile of shit with paid staff. One step forward 10 steps back. Fucking waste of time.

    If you see an animal (or a child) in need, in distress, please Act from your heart (but with due caution). This is something Real that you can do, right now, that will actually make a small difference in this world. And do volunteer work if possible, as part of your spiritual practice.

  • Lidia,

    July 14th, 2015 at 5:33 pm you wrote “What if you are not trying to ‘get’ anywhere with it? There is nothing about this that has to do with attainment.” I disagree. Three major emotional motivational systems largely determine our relations with others: attachment (which relates to needs for closeness and fears of abandonment issues), identity (which relates to power, hierarchy, and boundaries), and attraction. All emotional reactions occur in one way or another, directly or indirectly, to regulate life processes and promote survival, usually related to some combination of attachment, identity, and attraction. In our relations with others we try to “get” or “attain” some combination of attachment, identity and/or attraction in order to regulate our life processes and promote survival. These processes structure and motivate our relations with others in highly organized, purposeful ways. Neither we nor our closest other-animal relatives go around in life disconnected from others and bumping into them in entirely random ways like gas molecules as you seem to suggest—nor in the ways that Robin Datta suggests. Acceptance, closeness, and identity issues do.

    Yesterday I wrote to Robin Datta: “Say that to your children, to the elephants, the dolphins, the whales, and to the gorillas and chimpanzees and see how far you get with it.” Related to this, and to your assertion that “this has nothing to do with attainment” an important question arises: What most often happens to children when parents use the highly intellectualized, emotion-pathologizing approach with children that Robin Datta so persistently encourages us to use with each other, telling us what we presumably should, should not, must and must not feel? This quote comes from Les Greenberg in his book Emotion-Focused Couples Therapy, The Dynamics of Emotion, Love, and Power, in the chapter on shame:

    “Internalized shame also occurs through child-rearing practices that teach children that certain feelings, desires, and behaviors are unacceptable. Shaming is a common child-rearing practice in the West, and to a certain extent, all people in the West are damaged by it. For example, boys typically are shamed for showing weakness and girls are shamed for not being relational or for being too assertive or sexual. Children’s adaptive shame pulls them back from exposing those parts of themselves judged as unacceptable. Through repetition, or even an intense single experience of being belittled or viewed with contempt, shame becomes internalized such that those feelings and behaviors that were scorned automatically evoke feelings of shame, whether or not the other is present. Furthermore, these internalized shaming messages can generalize from specific feelings and behaviors to condemnation of the entire self or core aspects of the self. Views of one’s self as flawed, stupid, lazy, incompetent, or selfish often are based on early shaming experiences. If these are activated in a relationship, they lead to strong withdrawal, not for fear of closeness but for fear of diminishment. Partners who feel worthless are also unable to ask for support or assert their needs, because they feel so undeserving and unentitled.”

    Though few here will understand it, and many may disagree, I will state, bluntly, that unconscious shame frequently plays a CRITICAL ROLE in the identity struggle, dominance-submission cycles, often dripping with acidic contempt, that we so often see playing out, in spades, among commenters here at NBL. (And, of course, also at Fractal Planet, an even worse cesspool of ad hominem attacks on others, done there under the false-flag of “good science”, while actual science has nothing to do with any such ad hominem attacks. To me, this alleged scientific justification for their behavior makes such behavior doubly deplorable.)

    Robin Datta,

    July 14th, 2015 at 8:16 pm you wrote “Using observation and reasoning, the only logical conclusion that one can arrive at is that there is only one sentient being in the universe: oneself.” I do not agree with this narcissistic “conclusion”, this premise, at all. Using observation and reasoning people can, and have, come to a number of other entirely logical “conclusions” far more compelling than yours in my opinion. (Meanwhile, I strongly prefer the term “models” over “conclusions” regarding these (tentative) ideas about how things may work in the world outside of and including our heads.) Given that I disagree with your fundamental premise, which seems unwarranted, glib, and false to me, I neither follow nor agree with the rest of the argument that you develop in this comment. I maintain that as complex mammals people who comment here, including me, do so based on attempts to meet various combinations of attachment and identity needs, plus attraction to one another. When we do not get our attachment and identity needs met, we go to other places in continuing attempts to get those needs met. I confess that I don’t have any idea at all of what you think motivates us.

    Does what I have written here qualify as “snake oil”, as Robin Datta insists? I rather doubt it, but I expect that Robin still thinks so.

  • Forests burning across the N. Hemisphere releasing massive amounts of stored carbon from both the forests & the permafrost.
    It can only get worse.

    And here comes monster El Nino with the “missing heat.”
    Rising temperatures escalating to 1.5 degrees C above baseline are on the way.


  • Can anyone prove to me on the basis of observation and reasoning, that they are not an automaton, a meat robot, totally bereft of sentience and awareness, acting solely in accordance with their programming? That would be the basis for validity of constructs on observation and reasoning.

  • @Still – Love. I pretty much decided to stop posting here, but I feel I owe you a final clarification of my take on Osho, and our conversation about him and his work.

    You will recall that I told you that I had over 100 books by Osho. I am not a millionaire, so that represented a substantial investment on my part. I still have those books. I am bringing them down now from the attic to continue reading them. My conversation with you led me to open one of his books on Tao, and I was blown away by the depth of his wisdom. I loved that man for years. I learned a lot from him.

    I was mistaken about Osho’s involvement in the collapse of the Oregon experiment. You helped me see that I was wrong about that. I am very grateful to you for that. Period.

    My remarks about cultism were entirely separate from what I said to you, and had to do with the situation here on NBL. Those remarks had nothing to do with Osho or his gathering.

    Still, the more you post about Osho, I can see that you are still disturbed about what happened to him in Oregon, and how it was misunderstood by so many people. I now share your dismay. I am going to offer you some advice – which is always a risky move. But I feel in my heart to do it. If Osho was here I think he would advise you to drop what happened in the past and continue on your path to spiritual realization. I ask you to meditate and ask yourself if your constant concern with these past events may have become a hindrance to your further growth. Your call. What I have offered is out of love. If it doesn’t ring true to you – just reject it. Love, mike k.

    @Sabine – Love. Do not misconstrue my remark about Hitler’s power to corrupt many good Germans. That remark referred to your mentor ulvfugl. As for the use of sulfurous fumes and the will of heaven – yes those are part of Christian hagiology. But I am not a Christian or member any other organized belief system. Just a poetic device, nothing more. Reminded me of when Hugo Chavez said he smelled sulfur after Bush spoke at the UN. As far as the will of heaven, that has more Chinese resonance than Christian to me.

    Again – I am not calling you a Nazi. That is obviously untrue. Love.

  • Robin Datta,

    July 15th, 2015 at 4:21 pm you wrote “Can anyone prove to me on the basis of observation and reasoning, that they are not an automaton, a meat robot, totally bereft of sentience and awareness, acting solely in accordance with their programming? That would be the basis for validityof constructs on observation and reasoning.”

    Why would I or anyone else wish to try to prove to you something that remains nothing more than a distracting irrelevancy? As I wrote earlier, to me, at least, your point remains exactly that: entirely irrelevant. As feeling biological mammals, whatEVER the fundamental cause(s) of our behaviors, we think, feel, and behave as we think, feel and behave, and with psychological, emotional, practical, and social consequences for ourselves and others. With all due respect, if you wish to remain stuck in your obsessive, highly intellectualized, narcissistic, human supremacist cage, completely out of touch with your mammal emotions and other people, fine. By all means do whatever flips your bippy. (Hopefully, you won’t damage too many children in your out-of-touch with emotional reality bippy-flipping process.) I, in distinct contrast, strongly prefer to acknowledge and accept my animal nature, complete with my wired-in emotions and social needs for connecting organically with others.

  • To AJ Says:
    July 14th, 2015 at 9:54 am
    “Today is a good day not to reproduce.” Why ??? Especially i had my birthday . had i not come into this world the world would be soooooo much more deprived without me i can attest to that . Even If you can have a child for only one minute to hold and have the joy .. It was worth it . Not having the experience makes the world until it ends lesser . The world is not to save why not go out in stile and grace and with celebration with all its glory and yes even with a child !!!

  • Hey Bud –

    With all due respect, if you wish to remain stuck in your obsessive, highly intellectualized, narcissistic, politically correct cage, completely out of touch with the real world, fine. By all means do whatever flys your kite. (Hopefully, you won’t damage too many loving couples and children with your out-of-touch pc emotional bippy-flipping nonsense.

    Oh, by the way, you’re a real mfuckin’ piece of work.

  • @Gerald – The Robert Scribbler post on the arctic wildfires is alarming. Scribbler’s right, it’s not getting anywhere near the coverage it should, considering the immense implications. Perhaps that’s why it’s not being covered. At any rate, reality can only be ignored for so long. I predict it’ll soon dawn on the masses just how dire the situation is. Tom cites 2019 as the year the shit really hits the fan. I tend to agree.

  • Three years ago sainted empirical scientist Natalia Shakhova told us in very understandable terms what could happpen.
    Her words were both predictive & prophetic.
    The theory is true.
    It is happening precisely as she predicted.
    It will be very abrupt.
    Much of it will already have gone down by 2019.
    Those of us who may be alive in 2019 will probably wish we were dead.
    Watch it again, grasp every word & nuance, & you will know that we are going extinct.

  • Sabine said: “Living with this takes a lot of courage but some images are just too much, especially for people who can’t switch off their imagination. Like me and Wren, you seem to be one of them. In a way, that’s a blessing and isn’t that what living actually is? ”

    I definitely believe that it’s a blessing. What you said reminded me of a line in a poem that I wrote about the our predicament –

    “In equal measures blessed and cursed
    to see the truth and know the worst”

    I would always much rather face the truth of things, however painful.

    You mentioned animal rescue.I have 4 young wrens in my care at the moment. Their parents built a nest in a camper and the 4th of July rolled around and the people who own the camper went camping and drove the babies 200 miles away from the parents.
    They were setting up their campsite when they heard the nestlings screaming for food. Being caring people, they took time out of their holiday to find help for the babies.The wrens have done beautifully and are just a few days away from release. Watching them grow and learn each new thing is a very in the moment process. When they realize for the first time “Hey,I can fly!” or watching them pick up their first inch worm or the first time they take a bath – it is a wonderful thing to see. There is nothing of extinction about it. It is life,unfolding,here and now.

    Of course in my more sober moments, I count how many generations away from extinction they may be,for even the most “optimistic” extinction scenarios have some large swaths of bird and mammal species wiped out.

    I also am caring for 2 baby finches that someone threw in a dumpster.
    When that kind of thing happens I find myself disgusted with humanity. What I try to remember is that there was also someone who rescued them from the dumpster.Blessed and Cursed.

    I remember a nest of three 5 day old chimney swifts that a construction worker brought to me a couple of years ago. His co workers had thrown them in the dumpster when they found the nest while doing a chimney repair. He waited until all of the workers left the site so that they wouldn’t see him and then went into the dumpster to find them.
    Then he cared for the the best he could until he could find help for them.
    It always makes me so sad to think how he had to hide his goodness from the other men.

  • I guess I’ll go into serious mode for a minute here, and just state the obvious, as much as I prefer beating around the bush with a twinkle in my eye:

    It’s actually a phrase coined by that infamous wife-beater and heroin addict John Lennon: “Whatever gets you through the night…it’s alright, it’s alright”.

    Very much the same sentiment was expressed by lifelong crackhead Sly Stone (who was absolutely amazing at Woodstock, btw – I was there): “Different strokes for different folks”.

    – So why is this so hard for so many here to grasp?

    – Bud likes his attachment theory stuff.

    – Robin Datta is into his Advaita.

    – Old Growth Forest finds comfort in her tribal ancestral ways.

    – Gerald Spezio like huffing glue and cursing Jews.

    It’s all good! (Well, not ALL – but most of it isn’t really HARMFUL, per say).

    What’s harmful is the persistent meme that defines the NBL space that “I’m OK, you’re not OK”…or “I’m smart…you’re dumb”…or “I have the answers…and you’re a clueless moron”.

    It’s not always said in such stark street language as that. For example, Lidia called Jean Turcot an “autist” a little while back, and asked him (rhetorically, for sure) “Why are you even here”?

    Now, I’m not quite sure, but I think that “autist” is a German word the means stupid, selfish jerk – because that was the context of her dismissive conversation.

    The one thing we all agree upon is that we’re slipping into the darkness, and that things are going to become a lot worse, and probably won’t get any better despite humanity’s best efforts at this point. So everybody’s got to take refuge and find comfort wherever s/he can. And it’s neighborly and loving to offer to share you refuge with others, IF they are interested. And if not…accept them as they are and leave the prostelyzing and preaching alone. It doesn’t become anybody. It just makes you look ugly.

    OK…enough serious. Back to the Monty Python-esque Doomerville Express.

    For those who are leaving – like Mike K – here is a little joke that will help you remember that “Nature Bats Last” and “Only Love Remains” long after you are gone.


    So this guy walks into a bar, sits down, and orders a beer. While the bartender is pouring it, he notices this big-ass gorilla perched on the stool in the corner of the bar.

    As the bartender give him his beer, he says, “Hey, do you know you’ve got a gorilla sitting at the end of your bar”?

    “Of course”, the bartender replies.

    The guy takes a sip of his beer, and says, “I don’t get it. This is a classy place. Why do you let that gorilla hang out here?”.

    “Watch this”, the bartender says. He reaches down beneath the bar, picks up this BAT, goes over to the gorilla, and gives him a huge smack right across the kisser.

    The gorilla jumps up, rolls his eyes, beats his chest – and then leaps right over the bar. He grabs the bartender’s pants, yanks ’em down, and proceeds to give him an totally righteous snarlin’. Once he’s done, he hops back over the bar, and sits down in the corner once again.

    The bartender buttons up his pants, and then walks over to the guy with the beer, and says, “So…what do you think of THAT”?

    “Wow. I am impressed, for sure”, the guy says.

    The bartender looks at him with a twinkle in his eye, and asks, “So…would you like to try it”?

    The guy thinks for a few seconds, and then says, “OK…only don’t hit me so hard with the bat”.


    And now for the postscript:


    The bartender replies, “No worries, my friend. ONLY LOVE REMAINS”.

  • The latest post includes an EoE and a cover story about my work. Catch all the action here.

  • .
    don’t hit me so hard with the bat!” – very funny.

    Looking forward to war, famine, and pestilence.
    Just sitting on this runaway train, staring out the window, with a cat on my lap.
    Sadly, this is what we’ve come to:
    The Voluntary Extinction Movement says:
    “…thou shalt not procreate.”

    The Church of Euthanasia says:
    “Save the planet, kill yourself.”

  • I liked that joke too, ed!

    Since I’m over-posted yet again on the new thread:

    China begins construction of ‘world’s tallest’ dam


    Beijing (AFP) – China has begun building a 314-metre (1,030-ft) high dam which will be among the world’s tallest, officials said, as the country massively expands hydropower.

    The Shuangjiankou dam on a tributary of China’s mighty Yangtze river will be completed in 2022, the environmental ministry said on its website Tuesday.

    The facility, costing 36 billion yuan ($5.8 billion), will be higher than the world’s current tallest dam, the 305-metre Jinping-1, also in China. [there’s more]

    I’m bettin’ that this damn dam never sees completion, because by 2020 all kinda global economic wreckage will occur (not to mention how catastrophic the environment will be by then).

  • .
    I’m overposted on the new thread as well.
    If it hasn’t happened yet, then why behave like it has? But, it depends on what you have done, what you are doing, what you are going to do!
    Are you on the Titanic, after it hit the iceberg, drilling holes in the hull saying “what does it matter, we are going down anyway?” Well, that’s not cool. But, if you are off in a corner crying uncontrollably, well, is that how you want to spend your last hours?
    However, there is a twist to this analogy: The passengers on the Titanic did not steer the ship into the iceberg – they were innocent of that.
    We, that’s you and me, are Guilty – we have participated in the steering of the ship into the iceberg – maybe some of us more unknowingly than others… Criminal Negligence is “well dumbass, you SHOULD have known…”
    Be that as it may, Join me in the lounge, we’ll have a brandy and sing songs.
    this end is not so bad as the end we deserve.

  • Ooops! Sorry Caroline & Carolyn – my bad. Thanks David H for the correction. Love.

    Love. Kirk – My ciao was not carved in stone. Sorry you were disappointed. I did not promise anything, so try not to get confused. I wonder why it is so important to you to avoid anything contrary to your beliefs. Try to answer if you wish without seasoning everything with curse words. Have you heard what the Buddha said about right speech? A little practice of that could change your whole approach to communication….

  • “Lidia called Jean Turcot an “autist” a little while back”

    That is a lie, ed. I said that space travel was a masturbatory fantasy among autists, of whom I know many. Furthermore, I never said Jean was stupid, or a jerk. I don’t think he is stupid or a jerk or autistic. I think he is misguided in his aspirations.

  • pat: i gotta disagree with you there, buddy. If there’s any guilt it’s in the design of the human species. Look, if one is born in a rainforest to a tribe that’s never encountered civilization or any of its trappings, they live accordingly (ie. within nature). Sure mom and dad die young (mom from snake bite, dad killed by wild animal on hunt perhaps) and they probably will too, but it’s their life – no judgement of good or bad.

    We on the other hand are born into this set of living arrangements – no choice – and through culture you’re RAISED within it (ie. you DON’T know any better until MUCH later, when the “damage” is already done, and continues until we too die). What’s to be guilty about?

    i used to hate all those “pioneers” of tech – from Ford, to Tesla, to Marconi, and all the rest. Now i’ve forgiven everybody for everything.
    This life, this bizarre, awful, fascinating, existence is like contemplating a flower growing from seed to beautiful flower then to decay and finally death. That’s the design. We had our moment in the sun, and we squandered it on silly crap, but that’s the way it went. Too bad, so sad, goodbye humanity. Earth goes on (even if it’s a lifeless rock for an eon). It’s not about us. We were just a small part, and none of it means anything.

    Even if we’d have lived in total harmony with each other and were perfect stewards of nature it would still end with resource depletion or the sun going into its death phase and taking our galaxy with it eventually. It’s part of the “plan.” No guilt. No judgement.

    Anyway, that’s my 2 cents.

  • They Knew, They Lied: ExxonMobil and Climate Change
    Thursday, 16 July 2015 00:00
    By William Rivers Pitt, Truthout | Op-Ed


    …despite knowing better, ExxonMobil spent millions of dollars to promote “scientists” and think tanks who worked hammer and tongs to promulgate the idea that climate change was a myth. Climate-deniers like Willie Soon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics made mad bank by spraying scientific falsehoods into the polluted wind, thanks to the largesse of a number of energy corporations, including ExxonMobil.

    They knew. They lied. They paid others to lie. They deranged the conversation, perverted bedrock science into a muddle of greed-inspired opinion-based nonsense, and maybe, or probably, humanity might have missed its window to fix all this because of the long delay they created in the name of profit.

  • Bob S.: Hey! How you feelin’? Yeah, there’s a new article out saying they STILL spend millions on denial! They’re protecting their income stream by diverting any and all attempts to shut it down – like the coal industry. It’s some sick shit. Quick recovery m’man. i enjoy your thoughts and links here.

  • Here it is Bob (took me a while to remember where i saw it):

    ExxonMobil Is Still Spending Millions of Dollars on Climate Science Deniers


  • .
    @ Tom: Agreed, it’s the subtle nuance of “knowing” that clouds the moment..
    “Live free or die.”

  • I am researching for an exposé on The Crutch of Euthanasia.

    The information I have uncovered indicates that it is a terribly said story.

    Parents warp the mind of a kid who leaves at 14 and does a transgender then supports the unibomber for president.

    Typical Charles Manson groupie dynamics.

    The kid (Reverend Chris) was filled with hatred because of his shit-head parents, his dads power trip, and his dad’s leaving Reverend Chris’s mom for a model, then divorcing Reverend Chris’s mom.

    So far, she then disappears from history.

    Reverend Chris’s dad in the fashion of his family (powerful Brits) glories in power at first, then money and sex after giving up power as the number one pursuit.

    It is obvious why he does not want people to have kids (his suffering as a kid) and obvious why he wants everyone else not of his clan (“the other” psychology) to kill themselves.

    Quite sad.

    pat, could you bring him to some grieving meetings for group therapy or are they too far gone?

    “Pursue a life of excellence,” not a death of excellence.