Edge of Extinction: The Lion’s Share of Blame

Thanks to Pauline Schneider for creating the video embedded below.

Comments 100

  • More genius from Guy McPherson (as if we’ve come to expect anything less). I feel like we live in a society where if we can point to somebody like Cecil’s killer and say “That person is evil” then it makes us feel better about ourselves somehow. Because we would NEVER do that. But of course we’ll still eat animals that have been abused and exploited and tortured, and we will purchase products made by children in poor countries, etc. Obviously the drone killings and war images are the extreme of what we allow our government to do in our name (and for what??? Cheap oil?). For most people, it’s easier to turn off the TV and not think about it. Or turn on celebrity gossip and sitcoms. I can only speak for myself, and maybe I was just raised “properly” in America, but it is REMARKABLY easy for me to distract myself from the absolute horrors my existence is inflicting on others. The machine has churned out a good soldier that way. Of course, everyone gets their comeuppance. I expect no different for myself.

  • Glass houses and rocks.

  • Good points Dr. McPherson.

    One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.” – Joseph Stalin (paraphrased some)

    A Harvard professor does some science on the impact of the loss of gravity around Greenland and Antarctica.

    He says it will cause a drop in sea level near those continents, but cause more sea level rise than expected much further away from them.

    Wouldn’t tThis impact methane release in the Arctic because lower sea level there means more exposure of methane rich soils and ocean bottoms that would be even shallower as a result?

    See the video and some quotes here: Is A New Age Of Pressure Upon Us? – 7

  • The Misanthropocene

    90% of lions gone in the last 20 years.
    9 billion humans by 2050.

    We clear cut Indonesian forests to export wood pellets for Europeans to burn in power plants to provide 50% of their “renewable energy”.

    Before those forests are clear-cut, elephants are poisoned and orangutans are shot so that nobody will protest.

    Then we plant palm oil plantations, run by slave labour to grow palm oil for Europeans to burn in their cars in Europe. This is called “bio-fuel”, it should be called “death fuel”.

    Israeli settlers burned an 18-month old baby alive and will likely never be caught.

    I’m glad humanity will go extinct, too bad about the rest of creation.

    But, none of that matters because I’m #1! I’m #1!

  • Let me apologize for Spezio ignition.
    Don’t blame the Jews, they’re only human, instead blame humanity.
    There are assholes every where, always have been, even back in the day of tribes. We are the open festering wound on the face of the earth.

  • “I think we should see if we can have the featured essay published in the Bangladeshi MSM.”

    I belong to a restricted Google Group which is the class that started at the Dhaka Medical College in Bangladesh in 1965 (wheh dinosaurs still roamed the earth). By no means MSM. And they ain’t buyin’ sea level rise (yet!).

    Fortunately Fresno, CA where I live is (FAT – Fresno Air Terminal is) 330 feet above Mean Sea Level. And the sea level is gonna get very mean Very soon. i once lived a couple of counties over from the Jim Beam distillery in Kentucky. That distillery was in a “dry” county. Fresno County is mighty dry and gettin’ drier, but it is a different dryness.

  • Guy: good point, but we know that the masses are just led around by the MSM via constant distraction and this lion killing dentist will just drop down the memory hole as the next big LOOKIE HERE rises to take its place. No follow-up, no in depth reporting on the diminishing lion population or any other species will be brought up or viewed in the large market.

    From yesterday:

    Friday, July 31, 2015
    Arctic Sea Ice Collapse Threatens – Update 2


    Due to warm ocean waters and to heatwaves on land that extended over the Arctic Ocean, while warming up rivers ending into the Arctic Ocean, the sea ice has taken a battering over the past few weeks, as illustrated by the images below.

    Above image shows the last bit of thick (5 m) sea ice in the Canadian Archipelago, which became dislodged on July 8, 2015. It looks set to be virtually gone by August 7, 2015, according to the 30-day Naval Research Laboratory animation below, and as also discussed in greater detail in a recent post.

    [ends with]

    In other words, disappearance of the sea ice could occur even earlier than September 2018 and if things get really bad, collapse could even occur as early as September this year.

  • I recall when Guy brought up the limits of human endurance to heat (curtailed ability to cool off) due to “wet-bulb” temps. Well, here we are!

    Killing Heat — It Felt Like 165 Degrees in Iran Today


    In Iran it was 115 degrees Fahrenheit today (46 C). Add in humidity and the heat index was a stunning 165 F (74 C). But what they really should be concerned about is the wet bulb reading…

    A Limit to Human Heat Endurance

    Thirty five degrees Celsius. According to recent research, it’s the wet bulb temperature at which the human body is rendered physically unable to cool itself in the shade. At which evaporation not longer cools the skin. A temperature that results in hyperthermia, heat exhaustion and heat stroke — even when sitting still and out of direct sunlight over the course of about 1-3 hours. Basically, it’s the physical limits of human heat endurance. [read the rest]

  • Things you can’t blame.

    The English Enclosure movement
    Genesis Chapter 1
    European Philosophy
    Industry and Industrialism
    Finance Capital
    Ideology of Race
    Factory Farming Meats
    Disney World
    My cousin in the US Army
    Manifest Destiny
    Domination Psychology and Practice
    People with a low tolerance for Anarchy

    Because, you know, it’s everybody

  • Wester,

    You left out Oil-Qaeda.

    They engineered fossil fuel use by civilization.

    Then deceived, and deliberately covered it up from the public.

    And still do to this very day.

    Proximate causation is the essence of guilt for depraved-heart murder.

    Has anyone on this site contemplated injustice and justice in the context of either the deliberate or indifferent destruction of a planet?

    Is “those who drink water, eat food, and stuff like that, made me kill Cecil the Lion” a valid argument for the Hunter-Dentist?

    (The Psychology of the Notion of Collective Guilt, Oil-Qaeda & MOMCOM Conspire To Commit Depraved-Heart Murder)

  • Here is the uninhibited antithesis to doomerism written by intelligent & “idealistic” scientific types, who still for-see a livable & sustainable future for humans – if only we will “think correctly” & change our destructive “mindsets.”

    They are tragically wrong, but they demonstrate that even careful well intentioned scientifically oriented people can be enraptured with blind hopism.

    Compare Hunziger’s gushingly supportive position with Sam Carana’s brief but glaringly opposing synopsis at Arctic News (July 31).

    September’s empirical updates of the Arctic Sea ice will give us a good handle on how much time remains.

    at Counterpunch Hunziger, Human-Made Evolution

  • Robert/Shizel, I’m so glad I’ve been reading your stuff for the past several years, from CD to here. Unfortunately, trying to understand how we got where we are by summing it all up as ‘there are assholes everywhere,’ even in the tribes, completely and entirely dismisses how those tribes viewed asshole behavior and responded to it. That’s the glaring weakness and omission in your position.

    There are unspoken layers when we begin with “it’s everyone,” or “people are the same everywhere/everywhen,” etc. First of all is the unspoken western heavenly ideal of perfection, a presumption of how things should be for all people everywhere that is laden with baggage that has never been openly stated. When people compare the destructiveness of humans in indigenous cultures to the destructiveness of humans in western cultures and sum it all up with “they lacked the technology to be more destructive,” they are completely dismissing how those cultures did address human destructiveness, and also dismissing every single strength and all the wisdom and effectiveness of those societies and cultures.

    What we do when we approach these conversations in this abysmally low-intellect manner is start from a perspective that our western heavenly ideal of a perfect human society is the standard for measuring all other human societies. Westerners are measured by their ideals and their machines, not by their actions or the consequences of their actions.

    Other people in other societies, however, are evaluated by their measurable actions or perceived lacks, and especially anything westerners think those other people did that was wrong/maladaptive/primitive/blah-blah-blah. To the western mind there must be no wrongdoing, no humans doing crazy, stupid things, no socially accepted harm to others, etc. In this western heavenly ideal of what humans should be and do, if there are humans who get out of line, then justice works like a well-oiled machine through appropriate processes, systems, and understandings. Other societies are judged by their perceived shortcomings, but westerners are judged by their achievements. Indigenous people had warfare and torture, while westerners had science and opera.

    Maybe the question/answer/key point is not that there are assholes everywhere, but how societies responded to the inevitable assholes. Did they allow them to rule the world? Did the psychopaths just continually brutalize everyone weaker? Did those societies make the assholes their heroes, like this culture does with monstrous, omnicidal brutes like Columbus and almost every single early white guy who landed on Turtle Island?

    I will never forget the post by someone on this blog (I don’t remember who it was that wrote it) who said that Columbus stepped off the boat into the Pleistocene.

    The genuinely indescribable level of butchery and depravity of Columbus and his men and their swords and big ships, the slaughter of millions of people and the wholesale destruction of the land that began even then was glossed right over in that person’s mind. What mattered was the technology and other perceived “advancements” of western culture! Because those gentle Tainos, those weaponless people who gave whatever was asked of them, those naked people whose women were sleeping with whomever they chose and living in a world where everyone was cared for were still stone age(!) and obviously deserving of contempt.

    Decency, morality, sanity, reason, health, and pretty much everything that is of true value to humans and the rest of the life on the planet are contemptible, and machines and human manipulation of the world (power) are seen as the ultimate virtues while unspeakable horrors are considered side issues. That is what a person is saying when they say something like “When Columbus got off the boat he stepped into the Pleistocene.”

    The “it’s everybody” and “tribes had assholes, too” mantras originate from the same superiority and contempt that produce statements informing us that Columbus stepped back in time to a more “primitive” world.

    Saying “it’s everybody” may appear to be egalitarian, a reasonable cosmic conclusion given what we know. Unfortunately, it’s not even the right discussion and it’s an answer to the wrong question.

    The question has never been how far other societies have failed to meet the west’s expectation of a heavenly-perfection fantasy for humans and their conduct. However, if a person thinks that is the question, then of course, “all societies have human monsters” appears to be an answer to something.

    But it’s not the question. The question his how different societies responded to the inevitable reality of the human capacity for destructiveness and its painful consequences. This culture thinks that all problems need to be “fixed” or systematized so we have a single answer that works all the time. We have processes, agreements, educational programs and technology to throw at those systematized answers. Even though those answers don’t work and they are patently brutal to all of life, and supporting them has pretty much killed everything, we’re all Candide and as bad as it is, it’s the best there ever has been. Anyone who doesn’t think so is just indulging in noble savage fantasies, because of course, we’re all really the same.

  • You can correct my statistics on this, but the proportions and the points are the same:

    There are about 700 million drivers of cars in the world, and they are going to (help to) kill 7 billion people via carbon dioxide.

    Now THAT’S personal culpability, not requiring any Droner-in-Chief.

    That’s almost like lining people up at the edge of a ditch and opening fire.

    But if you DID care about unplugging yourself from that particular war machine, there’s always (and have been for the last 35 years):


    Voices crying in the wilderness, watching the white liberal “Peace Movement” circle jerk, long before we “eco-te**o*ists” got here, eh?

    Sometimes, in my perverse moments, I think how sad it would have been for Martin King and John Lennon to have lived to see these times, to see how low we have fallen since they left us.

    Perhaps Cecil was spared something even worse, though I do believe that “anti-hunters” should be permitted to arm and enlist on the animals’ team, with open season on how many hunters they can bag.

  • @ JC Dolph

    You were treated by the finest oncologists for 5 years?!

    And you imply Dr. Sears is a dazzling quack.

    I must be missing something here.

  • There was a special place in northern Yellowstone where the natives gathered to socialize and hunt over the course of countless generations.

    One year the Whites showed up and stayed there awhile before pushing West.

    When the natives arrived soon after, they couldn’t set up camp. There was human feces everywhere.

    The white people are unstoppable assholes. In the middle Tennessee area the natives had a treaty among themselves to set aside land for hunting only. The treaty was very old and honored among the natives. White people were supposed to abide by it too, but an ancestor of mine helped ruin the whole thing. He covertly planted some corn far into the treaty territory. Later, after he discovered how well the corn grew there, he moved his family in right away and so did everybody else. All I can say is that it was wrong and I feel sorry.

    Here’s another family “Indian fighter”. Alexander Kirkpatrick, my middle namesake, was a good friend of Andrew Jackson’s and rode with him on several campaigns to drive the natives from valuable properties. Again, all I can say is that it was all wrong and reflective of a serious innate flaw in people generally, that leaves most of us morally crippled, or assholes, however you want to put it.

    I heartily agree with OGFs theory, that assholeism would not be tolerated in native tribes that appreciated living in a social atmosphere of dignity and honor. I wouldn’t be surprised if serious beatings were dealt out to nonconformists.

    Now, in whitey-world, the opposite is true, there are no places that can even begin carry a social atmosphere of dignity and honor. For Whitey, if you’re NOT an asshole, you can be punished in many ways for your nonconformity. In whitey-world, you’re expected to suck-up to men who have disgraced themselves horribly, and that’s pretty much all of them.

  • Kirk — 2 names encapsulate the horror that your post evokes: Sand Creek. Chivington. The fact that these “volunteers” felt the necessity to add genital mutilation to mass murder should inform our sense of what attitudes still underlie this settler culture.

    I’m in a region where the slaughter was less, but, coming from the East, I actually was inwardly surprised when I met my first “surviving” Indians here. (One of them was with the AIM group in the ’70s that flew to London and, on the tarmac, claimed England for the Indians.)

    In the old colonial region, I used to live near a field where one of my ancestors, coming out from Boston to “tame the savages”, met his end in a late 1600s battle. Guess what I would have liked to add, but didn’t, to the battlefield marker?

    In retaliation, another expedition wiped out a village of Indian women and children while the warriors were away fighting, and threw their bodies over the waterfall next to their camp (mutilation again?). 300 years later I was blindsided driving through an intersection by that site, and nearly pushed over the same waterfall.

    Can you tell my karma in this department is quite pixelated?

    My goal, when I think of these types who share my present DNA, is to get as far away from their evil legacy as I can, either geographically or mentally, or both. At least Cecil did not die in the zoo, and I don’t want to, either.

  • Henry, there is a wealth of inescapably critical information in your phrase, “when I think of these types who share my present DNA …”

    You or I could interbreed with Larry Summer’s daughter or GW Bush’s sister.

    You & I also unquestionably share the very same DNA with the native “brown/red” Indian people, whose ancestors the “white” DNA people so savagely oppressed.

    This is not in dispute because interbreeding proves that the interbred offspring are perfectly “healthy & normal.”

    So, the real question is what “conditioned” the diametrically different behaviors?

    The “only proven” scientific answer is “cultural” conditioning – NOT biology.

    Indeed, the best argument against the rampant “back to blood crazies” is DNA.

    What has the science of DNA demonstrated more than the abject errors & stupidity of pretentious adversarial lawyerly criminal courtroom antics.

    The big question is what conditions both cultural similarities & DIFFERENCES.

    Again, the best scientific answer is the material & physical conditions of the natural & social environments.

    It’s very rudimentary for a scientific materialist/behaviorist.

    QED; We are all the same species with the same origins (Lucy) & the same readily transmissible DNA.

    Blaming bonehead murdering whitey for his “whiteness” is truly blindly anti-scientific, & there has been plenty of anti-whiteness & anti-science on this blog lately.

    Anti-whiteness is as unscientific as anti-blackness or anti-Muslim.
    for being a damn Yankkee either.

    I would not blame you for being a damn Yankee, but I would claim that it is a gigantic part of who you are.

    “The colonel’s lady & Mary O’Grady are sisters under their skin.”

    If there is any better science on this scientifically settled subject, please demonstrate it.

  • A hunter killed Cecil’s brother Jericho who had adopted his dead brother’s cubs.


  • thanks Gerald…I know, unscientific, but I’d love a vignette from your ”kerouac”phase.

  • Your message was “on target” (if you’ll excuse my choice of words here).

  • Now they are saying Jericho, Cecil’s brother lion is not dead.

  • Bullseye, Guy!!! The mass-consuming public is perhaps comforted in thinking that the killing of Cecil the Lion is an exceptional act of cruelly in a generally kind world, and of course THEY have no connection to the ongoing violence and ecocide, which just need a few tweaks in our consumption pattern, a few new decision-makers, more accepting fashion magazines,… in order to be solved.

    Kevin Moore, in regards to your last post on near-term economic collapse. The global economic system has been falling apart since the late ’60s, the moment of truth has been postponed constantly via debt expansion, bookkeeping fudging, and other forms of deception. Sure, it could come apart later this year or next year. I am NOT holding my breath, maybe been watching the coming-apart for too long? See the trilogy of articles about the economic crisis by my twin brother Jack Straw which culminate with this one which has links o the other two. http://www.dailybattle.pair.com/2012/occupy_target_destroy_ruling_money_fetish.shtml

  • As Guy said
    ‘We’ expect the lights to come on at a flick of a switch
    ‘we’ expect to maintain reserve currency
    ‘we’ expect water (hot no less) each time we reach for the tap
    ‘we’ expect food each time we go to the grocery store
    What he failed to point out was
    We expect a child born today to go to school in 5 years, and retire on a pension in 67.

    In New Zealand, every politician and over 2 million of us believes we can have continued growth for the next 60 od years.They call it Kiwi Saver.
    Even our so called ‘Green’ politicians are pushing for a pension plan that starts at birth.
    Having babies is the ultimate form of denial, and the ‘loved ones’ pay. Not telling the idiot breeders is another form of denial ie “It is worse to offend idiot breeders than to tell them they FUCKED UP”.
    If more idiot breeders admitted they FUCKED UP, then maybe there would be less of them and their victims.
    Guy’s photos were bad yes, but seeing a fat heifer waddling down the street, with it’s guts full of arms and legs, is way more offensive to the planet.
    The 3-4 billion breeders should all kill themselves, and leave some space for us innocent victims, who haven’t contributed to this shithole we didn’t volunteer to be born into.

  • I think it is fair to blame the ancient Chinese. If they had not been so inquisitive and thorough they would not have discovered the effect of mixing powerful oxidising agents with powerful reducing agents……high temperature explosions!

    Since the fifteenth century most wars have been chemical wars, the army with the best/most chemical weapons usually winning. And for more than 200 years progress has been measured as improvements in the size and application of explosions (faster, more effective combination of oxidising agents and reducing agents).

    Of course, had the ancient Chinese not invented explosives, the Europeans would have, eventually.

    Whereas it takes a lot of physical effort and considerable courage to kill a large animal (or another human)) with sticks and stones, compact chemical energy makes it oh so easy.

    Images of war are generally centred on people’s actions, yet in reality modern wars have been centred on manufacturing nitric acid and its derivatives, refining petroleum, and producing devices that utilised high octane fuels and explosives.

    I have been listening to a reading of The Selfish Gene (which I read decades ago). Genes have evolved ‘gene carriers’ (physical bodies0 that will ‘do anything’ to ensure they survive. Unfortunately, genes are blind, and what worked in the past no longer works.

    Some still see ‘last man standing’ as proof of success.

    A warm and sunny late-winter day in ‘paradise NZ’, with the TPPA temporarily derailed, and China ‘taking over the world’.

  • Jeff S

    ‘The global economic system has been falling apart since the late ’60s, the moment of truth has been postponed constantly via debt expansion, bookkeeping fudging, and other forms of deception.’

    Few would agree with you when you say ‘The global economic system has been falling apart since the late ’60s’, and the hundreds of millions of Asians who now have all kinds of luxuries their parents never dreamed of would definitely disagree.

    We need to distinguish between standard of living and quality of life, and I believe the quality of life for people in most western nations peaked between 1960 and 1980, and has been falling since.

    The key to this discussion is energy: without energy nothing happens. And until the early 2000s humans were able to extract increasing amounts of conventional petroleum every year (ignoring the temporary falls that were due to political events). Since 2010 the US has managed to counter geological depletion by extensive fracking, but that has been at very high financial and environmental cost.

    Current oil prices do not support high-cost extraction. But the global economic system cannot stand high energy prices, and a significant rise in energy prices would immediately cause a 2007-to-2008-style collapse.

    Many years ago Albert Bartlett eloquently highlighted the stupidity of an economic system predicated on extracting finite fossil fuels and increasing the population.

    Although it has taken somewhat longer than many people expected, we are now very close to the end of the line.

  • The ZOGs have a favorite wet dream:

    Crush the Caucasians and turn them over to the Orientals lock, stock, and barrel.

  • the new book’s a sweet insect love story, and pauline has a sweet voice. a children’s story book confronting nthe is going to be a tough sell. a sweet effort at any rate, when only love remains…

    and as usual guy makes a good point re. how unable to see the forest for the trees most sheeple are, in pointing out the hypocrisy of those who support the destruction of empire while condemning the evil of sporthunting or whatever individual ‘sin’ is currently the rage.

    good edward abbey quotes on anarchism in the tayen lane video.

    ‘it is REMARKABLY easy for me to distract myself from the absolute horrors my existence is inflicting on others’

    me too, babajingo. don’t be too hard on yourself. in the ‘food chain’ world in which we live, humans aren’t the only predators.

  • Kevin Moore: i urge you to read the trilogy by “Jack Straw” i refer to. Sure, it appears like there has been expansion in Asia since the late ’60s, but global economic growth has lagged since then, and what growth has been achieved has been attained not through actual expansion of capital and productive base, but via financial shenanigans and manipulations, ever faster debt expansion (the time/total debt curve looks distinctly exponential, really taking off after 1970-75), the downturns have been nastier and nastier, expansions weaker and weaker, and now it’s getting pretty impossible to get any sort of expansion at all/ And yes, the growing shortage of CHEAP fossil fuels is playing a big role in this.

  • Wester, you somehow forgot to mis-attribute stealing candy from babies and kicking puppies in your list of crimes for non believers of, pure as the driven snow, noble savagery. You guys are 100% exactly like climate deniers and young earth creationists. Disagree with them on one thing and you are branded as evil incarnate and haters of humans and agenda 21 supporters, devil worshipers and on and on. All that overpriced education has proven to be no defense for a Manichaean mindset or a selective memory. Everyday, somewhere on the doomOsphere I am criticizing and exposing the history and brutality of empire and neo liberalism, but it does not matter to the likes of you. You see what you want to see. It’s the full Monty or nothing. With us or with the terrorists. How ironic that you need to stoop to the same lying cheating tactics as those you have such an endless burning hate for. I guess we know what drips your dopamine eh?

  • It is now approfriate to address one’s questions to the Oracle of ESAS, or her minion, Metano Monstruo.

    Were savages noble? 50 Gt burp.
    Why megafauna extinction? 50 Gt burp.
    Whom to blame? 50 Gt burp.
    How to pursue a life of excellence? 50 Gt burp.

  • Well said, OGF. The germ of “wetiko” has sprouted and is in full bloom. “Tragically, the history of the world for the past 2,000 years is, in great part, the story of the epidemiology of the wetiko disease.”

    Regarding hunting, Aristotle, one of the “founders” of Western philosophy had to say this:

    “If some animals are good at hunting and others are suitable for hunting, then the Gods must clearly smile on hunting”. Great logic, coming from someone who modern man credits with pioneering logic itself!

    For $19,800, you can get help from friendly folks bagging a lion in South Africa. But lions are getting harder to find… how about moose? 100% shot opportunity for less than five grand and you don’t have to leave the continent!

  • The rash of news reports about psychopaths who fire guns into crowds indiscriminately is part of our culture.

    Such indiscriminate depraved-heart murder is a result of living in a culture that blames the innocent rather than the guilty, blames the victim rather than the perpetrator.

    Fossil fuel use, which is poisoning the planet with heat, is effectively mandated by our culture within Petroleum Civilization.

    That suicidal policy was decided before anyone commenting here was born.

    Who decides what vehicle engines and power plants will use for fuel, what plastics will be used for, what will be dumped into the oceans, and what will be in the air we breathe and water we drink?

    Centainly not you or me.

    You or I, therefore, cannot be to blame for addicting civilization to fossil fuels.

    Unless you work for and are paid by Oil-Qaeda, you are a victim of a culture that made suicidal mistake upon suicidal mistake well before you were born.

    We cannot choose to not be born into Petroleum Civilization, we can only choose to try to change it via criticism, speaking out, contrasting it with a sane civilization.

    If we do not know who is guilty of killing Cecil, or who is guilty of addicting civilization to fossil fuels, we are a potential candidate to fire disrespectful false accusations indiscriminately into a crowd of innocent people.

    And perhaps someday, degenerating into a hatemongering murderous fool of a psychopath who goes into a theatre, mall, school, or church to kill innocent men, women, and children.

    The psychopaths among us may be inspired to kill Cecil, or anything else that moves (On The Origin of The Bully Religion – 2).

    We need to be just, not false accusers, to “pursue a life of excellence.”

    Let’s know who is guilty and who is not.

    Let’s treat the innocent honorably in both word and deed.

    Let’s treat the guilty with justice in word and in deed.

  • OGF,

    Greetings to you way up there in the North!

    As usual, you’re eloquent, insightful and cutting through he crap.

    “Saying “it’s everybody” may appear to be egalitarian, a reasonable cosmic conclusion given what we know. Unfortunately, it’s not even the right discussion and it’s an answer to the wrong question.”

  • Why is domestication never discussed on this blog? Seems like we have never started doing it.

  • I don’t think the human species should be any less outraged by the killing of a defenceless lion or the killing of defenceless humans. The point of outrage is that some humans have the privilege of using power to their pleasure or gain. I say be outraged if that gets one to realize that a lion killed because a person had enough money, encompasses the reality of the human species thinking. Money equals power in the human species reality. Be outraged, perhaps the outrage one has for the senseless killing of this beautiful lion, this beautiful species, former king of the jungle. Be outraged, I demand you! Being outraged might further open the minds of the unaware to the enormity of what is happening in the world, the way we live our lives and open the curtain a little more to the current reality of the way the human species is trained to think.

  • cecil died for our sins. I hope his apostles write a good book.

  • Robin, your simple & astute synopsis is truly wise. I agree.
    I am still reeling from Jim Hansen’s recent hopism paper.

    August 1st, 2015 at 11:32 pm

    It is now appropriate to address one’s questions to the Oracle of ESAS, or her minion, Metano Monstruo.

    Were savages noble? 50 Gt burp.
    Why megafauna extinction? 50 Gt burp.
    Whom to blame? 50 Gt burp.
    How to pursue a life of excellence? 50 Gt burp.

  • “Why is domestication never discussed on this blog?”

    It (human domestication) was discussed on separate occasions several years ago, both in its own right and in reference to anarchy and hierarchy. Worth a look if one is interested in the topic. But not indexed and will not be easy to find in the archives. That crowd has gone except for two or three folks.

  • Re: OGF

    Off topic: What happened to CD? I read CD practically from its inception. The articles were decent, but the commentators and threads were often quite brilliant. Often I just skipped the articles to read the comments. Aleph Null was one of my favorites – though he miscalculated the emerging effect of methane. Lots of conflict following the John Achenson article. Now, I never go to the site. The articles got worse in quality, and the commentators(the good ones) disappeared. NBL is where I hang out and where I always start my day – and it has been so for many years. Can’t remember when I started here , but it was about the time that Ulvfugl started. This is a great site with many very good commentators. Best wishes to you and all the others.

  • Satish, exactly. Your link and the ideas fit with my comments, and it is interesting how closely my words fit with those of Forbes. The underlying perception is human destructiveness in all its manifestations, to other humans, to the earth, to other animals.

    Greetings, Sabine. It is so beautiful and warm and sunny here it doesn’t feel like Alaska much these days. I do not miss the lower latitudes like I did when I first moved here, when a nice summer occurred every third or fourth year, and even then it was never warm like it has been for the past few years. I guess you gotta grab the strawberries on the side of the cliff even if the end is near.

    I want to state it plainly, and state it as a beginning for all you: The words “noble savage” are racist words almost 100% of the time. It is a deeply, wholly racist term. It may not have been in the late 1600s when Dryden first used it in his play, but it has been a racist term for close to 200 years and it has been a tool of genocide and theft for that long. It is as racist as calling someone a “nigger” or a “rag head” or any other extremely ugly, racist epithet. It confuses you, however, because it is a negative-negative form of expression, and that makes you think it’s different than calling someone a nigger or a gook or a beaner or a spick or a kike. Instead of directly saying that Native peoples were inferior, “noble savage” offers up open contempt toward the idea that they were worth of any respect whatsoever.

    Charles Dickens gave us the definition for the term “noble savage” in 1853:

    To come to the point at once, I beg to say that I have not the least belief in the Noble Savage. I consider him a prodigious nuisance and an enormous superstition. … I don’t care what he calls me. I call him a savage, and I call a savage a something highly desirable to be civilized off the face of the earth…. The noble savage sets a king to reign over him, to whom he submits his life and limbs without a murmur or question and whose whole life is passed chin deep in a lake of blood; but who, after killing incessantly, is in his turn killed by his relations and friends the moment a grey hair appears on his head. All the noble savage’s wars with his fellow-savages (and he takes no pleasure in anything else) are wars of extermination – which is the best thing I know of him, and the most comfortable to my mind when I look at him. He has no moral feelings of any kind, sort, or description; and his “mission” may be summed up as simply diabolical.

    This is how “Noble Savage” has been used for over 150 years among educated and not-so-educated American society. “Noble Savage” is a dismissal of Native Americans on every level. It is much as if someone said that early Africans had developed specific cultural strengths or characteristics that were worthy of respect, and your audience came back and said, “I don’t believe your moral nigger fantasy.”

    It really is that ugly. It’s really, really ugly.

    I have explained the history of the term a couple of times at length, including just recently. I have explained the role of “noble savage” as it was used to continue genocide and land theft from the mid-1800s forward. Contempt for indigenous people and their cultures, contempt for anyone who displays any respect for Native Americans, viewing such respect as ridiculous, romantic and on a level with fairy-fantasies was the propaganda weapon necessary to continue butchering American Indian people and stealing their land.

    Apparently, those who feel some thrust of power at using the term don’t care that it’s a truly ugly, racist term. They’ve found it to be acceptable, even admirable, indicating great intelligence on the part of the speaker. It’s has become a religious-level view of How Things Are/Were that creates a snapshot of reality in their way of seeing things.

    “Noble savage” was used extensively to promote genocide and land theft, and it was also used, as it is now, to deflect criticism of the main culture and especially the worst of the main culture, the butchery and the stealing. Narcissistic and psychopathic personalities do not tolerate boundaries or criticism, and pointing out their shortcomings and errors never bodes well for the person mentioning those things.

    I’m going to say it straight out – if you are using the term “noble savage” as it is used among academics and by several posters here, including the good doctor today, and by Robert, whose posts I do very much enjoy, and others, you are using a term that is an equivalent to every other vicious, violent, hateful racist word ever used to harm others.

    Did I say it’s ugly? It’s actually evil.

    Now before you get your sensitive, defensive, narcissistic-injury knickers all twisted up your lily-white rectums, saying that you make a racist statement is not the same as saying you are a racist. In an absence of knowledge and experience, many people hold bigoted, racist views, especially in this country where racism and genocide were required for it ever occur in the first place.

    However, if you really, really buy into it like some of the folks here do, promote it, use it readily to attack others, you might not just hold a racist view, you might actually be a racist. Using the term “noble savage” is a racist tactic and weapon and nothing else.

  • oldgrowthforest, are you referring to me with the statement copied below?

    I’m going to say it straight out – if you are using the term “noble savage” as it is used among academics and by several posters here, including the good doctor today

    If you are referring to me, you’ll need to provide evidence for your statement. Otherwise, it’s disparagement without basis.

  • Not at all, Guy. I’m not aware of you using the term. When I refer to academics, I mean all the nonsensical academic discussions about now “noble savages” weren’t noble, and there are many of them.

    Guy, I hope you know that if I felt you said something I found fault with, I would come right out and say it. I have disagreed with a couple of your comments or positions including that of spirituality and a few comments about mainstream culture being the yardstick for all cultures, and I have said so, and done it without rancor.

    The “good doctor today” refers to Robin: “Were savages noble? 50 Gt burp.”

    On the contrary, Guy, I’m very grateful that you discuss the level the privilege and brutality of the dominant culture, and I don’t think your views are that far from mine.

  • Robin Datta, I love this; it makes me laugh out loud every time I read it. Thanks for always bringing the conversation back to basics!

    “It is now appropriate to address one’s questions to the Oracle of ESAS, or her minion, Metano Monstruo.

    Were savages noble? 50 Gt burp.
    Why megafauna extinction? 50 Gt burp.
    Whom to blame? 50 Gt burp.
    How to pursue a life of excellence? 50 Gt burp.

  • Oldgrowthforest said – .” It is as racist as calling someone a “nigger” or a “rag head” or any other extremely ugly, racist epithet”— ” calling someone a nigger or a gook or a beaner or a spick or a kike.”

    Don’t know if it was an oversight, but you left calling people “Whitey” off the list.

    “Now before you get your sensitive, defensive, narcissistic-injury knickers all twisted up your lily-white rectums”

    I believe that the rectums of white people are in fact quite diverse, ranging from shades of light pink all the way thru to a deep,mahogany.

  • Yes, robin, thinking that you are being superior in pointing out what is really, really important (50gt), by all means do take the time to use an acceptable but nonetheless highly racist term yourself to illustrate your values superiority and your grasp on what is real.

    Listening to the person who is there before you, being open, being kind and even a little humble has never been much of an ego rush, not like pointing out how irrelevant other people are along with their (clearly trivial) topics of conversation.

    I’ve just blown my second post of the day arguing, unless Guy posts a new essay, in which case I can post again.

    Bills, I don’t know what happened to CD. But I always loved Shizel’s posts, apart from the thorium hopium, which thankfully is no longer a big focus of his. Robert you always cracked me up!

  • The Native American philosophy of ‘all my relations’ created a culture which lived symbiotically with its environment. It was simple; plants and animals and the entire natural world were given the same degree of value and respect as was given to humans. All other things in nature were regarded as if they were people too. You would no more cut down a tree for no reason (or for selfish, gluttonous reasons) than you would murder your neighbor for no reason (or for selfish, gluttonous reasons.)

    It created a culture that cared, valued diversity, and respected other entities. That made it sustainable.

    Recently on the news they found some lady who spoke out and expressed disgust at how the media was trying to turn Cecil the lion into a person. She thought that was ridiculous and questioned what was wrong with people. She proclaimed, ‘This lion was not a person!’ That provides a stark philosophical contrast to the idea of ‘all my relations.’ The wetiko sickness was strong in this lady, as it is in most of our global culture nowadays. That’s what went wrong; human perception. Wetiko sickness seems to have come from the Romans and spread to the Europeans, and then eventually infected most of the rest of the world. It places humans, and also the individual self, above every other thing in the natural world.

    It creates a culture that doesn’t care, doesn’t value diversity, and respects no other entities, not even other entities of its own race. That’s what makes it unsustainable.

    There is a cure for the wetiko mental illness though, it’s called NTE. Too bad it’s going to take so many of ‘all our relations’ down with it.

    Stupid fucking Romans, or whoever it was that gave this disease to them. And most people don’t even realize they’re sick. It did come from Europe, and to deny that just blinds people to any chance of being cured through a change in perception (not that it really matters anymore anyway; it’s a little late, and mother earth is now about to shake us off. Good for her.)


  • Little White Ass said, “It places humans, and also the individual self, above every other thing in the natural world.”

    Robert Atack said, “Having babies is the ultimate form of denial, and the ‘loved ones’ pay. Not telling the idiot breeders is another form of denial ie “It is worse to offend idiot breeders than to tell them they FUCKED UP”.


    Here’s a gratifying rant from a young white woman who responded to the linked article last year:

    (Quote One)

    See, but that’s the thing, Kathleen. It isn’t your child’s world. The wild spaces and creatures of the world are not something that’s here for your amusement, or something that you’re only supposed to take care of because “the children” enjoy a tourist experience of seeing things perky and healthy around them. The world actually belongs to other creatures besides humans. The starfish, the polar bears, the tigers, the whales, the rhinoceroses…actually deserve to live in a healthy place for THEIR OWN SAKES, not so they’ll be pleasing to the human gaze.

    “Mommy environmentalists” are revolting. You’ve done the one thing that is worse for the starfish than anything else you could have chosen to do: breed more humans. And now you’re playing the ol’ sad trombone because YOUR GRANDSON might not have starfish to look at someday, in his lifetime. The starfish are actually interested parties here. Maybe we ought to ask them how they feel about your grandson poking them, which probably doesn’t help stem the spread of the pathogen.

    The implication in strong in this essay, as in many others: it’s someone else’s job to fight climate change. It’s the government’s job. It’s the big fuel companies’ fault. Somebody (but not me) needs to do something! My three-year-old grandson is TEH SADZ! Quick, somebody who’s not me do something! All I have to do is flash my maternal badge of immunity and sanctimony, and I’m instantly absolved of my role in making this Earth a toxic one for starfish and other creatures.

    No, honey. It was YOUR job. It was your kid’s job. It was your job to choose a lifestyle that left a smaller footprint, as it is all of our jobs.

    (Quote Two)

    I’m afraid the anthropocentric “we need to save the planet so our children can enjoy exploiting it just the way we did” campaign is really repellent to me, and I make no apologies for that. I looked all over that website–read every word of the Mission page, for example–and found nothing that suggested “we have a moral obligation to put fewer children on this Earth so that other species have a fairer chance of surviving.” It’s all sentimental, Baby-Boomer glurge about TEH PWESHUS CHILDWUN.

    A search for the word “overpopulation” on that site returns no results. Hmm, well, I guess it isn’t a problem then.


  • Violation alert! 3rd legitimate post, making illegitimate.

    Stormcrow, please take up your issues with the use of “Whitey” with apneaman. He is the one who first introduced the term into the conversation, as in “blame Whitey” in response to my criticisms of the megafauna extinction nonsense. My comments were in response to him.

    I’m sorry that not mentioning Caucasian pain and suffering at the hands of racists, i.e., persons who might call Caucasians “Whitey,” was “overlooked” by me. Apparently, it has caused you to feel discriminated against because I have not focused on Caucasian suffering and discrimination along with all the suffering and discrimination meted out by Caucasians operating under western psychosis. Your upset at the conversation not being about the suffering of Caucasians and all the wrongs done to them by others, all the racisms possible toward them, is pretty typical of the racism of the dominant culture. If everything isn’t about them, then the other guy is the racist. One cannot mention the genocide of well over 100 million people in the Western Hemisphere and criticize the prevailing view without being told that facts, history, numbers, observable reality, observable destruction is nothing more than “blaming Whitey.”

    Poor little Whitey.

    For the record, a lot of Caucasians are not Whiteys. Wester isn’t a Whitey, and I believe Wester is a Caucasian, although I could be wrong. Sabine isn’t a Whitey, Guy isn’t a Whitey, and a number of Caucasians who post here are not racist-Whiteys.

    But sure as fucking shit, a lot of them are, and they don’t think they are, either. They just think they’re right.

    I’ll say it again, and thank you so much, Stormcrow for highlighting it: the term “noble savage” is a supremely racist term. It has no legitimate usage at all outside of discussing its origins and its role in the genocide of the American Indians. Because that’s all it means, and that’s all its ever meant.

  • OGF,

    I’d be grateful if you would check out kuku comments over the past 2 days or so. Thanks. :-)

  • Ecoshlock, Scribbles and The Ignoble Savage

    China is buying up land in Africa to grow food because their own land and water is failing fast. The only problem is that most of the world’s population growth will occur in Africa over the next 20 years. I am not a sous chef, but this is what I refer to as a bad recipe.

    When cars first came out 100 years ago, we killed millions of blacks in the Congo for control of the rubber trade.

    When cell and smart phones came out, we killed millions of blacks in the Congo for control of conflict minerals.

    When food shortages spread across the world, will we kill millions of blacks in Africa to feed China so they can make our cars and phones?

    It’s like asking if night will follow day.

  • Won’t have to worry about race much longer. That’s a good thing, I think. When I was about 14, I had a job working at this stable. There was an old black gentleman who worked there who, when I asked his name said, “Just call me ‘Boy'”. So I did, I didn’t know any better at the time. It was, hey Boy this and hey Boy that! I’d shoot him a rabbit or two to take home. I thought we were friends. Things were so backward then, still are, but better.

  • Hey Guy,thanks for tolerating all of us western “Whitey” civilized morons still groping around in the dark for a more sane understanding of reality. And as always, “sentiment without action is the ruin of the soul”. Edward Abbey

  • @ Oldgrowth

    I still see you’re shadow boxing against perceived racist for your own amusement.

    I think you and Wester deserve an award. Let’s call it “being absolutely right, yet dead wrong award”.

    It seems you both just can’t wrap your minds around the reality that probably everyone here wishes you were correct in your bizarre inverted racism that somehow all the evil in the world can magically be attributed to whitey.

    Good Gawd if only it were true, then there might be/have been a solution to the predicament of 7 + billion consuming and procreating human beings behaving more or less like bacteria in a petri dish.

    I for one would love to think that whitey in solely to blame, because I could then go back to thinking in such simplistic terms of skin color and cultural divides. The world would suddenly become as black and white as I once thought it to be.

    Alas, technology readily spreads across both boarders and races and comparative advantage just tends to kill more efficiently, regardless of whom is holding the sharper stick. And unfortunately it just ended up in whitely hands at a time it could lay waste to all opposition to the bitter end.

    If only exterminating whitey would somehow restore the ancient cedar groves of Lebanon, deconstruct Giza or even elevate those fair shinned northern tribes to something more than slaves in the Old Testament. If only someone could point to someone else’s choices and know that if it wasn’t for them, all would somehow be right as rain. If only we could just go back in time and trace European colonialism back to that singularity which set whitey in motion down his genocidal path. If only……

    I envy you Oldgrowth, I still very much wish I possessed such a romantic provincial worldview, because life is just far more sad and tragic than you presume it to be, even in spite of you imagining you’re speaking some greater truth. I would give anything for you to be right about everything.

  • It’s hardly worth arguing about, since the prevailing mental illness plaguing humankind has so thoroughly pervaded our species so as to be irreversible, a situation where the insane completely dominates and eventually infects the sane through nearly irresistible osmosis. Think of how a position of open honesty is thwarted immediately when faced with a Machiavellian philosophy of lies, manipulation, and deceit. Think of it like how positivity is much harder to maintain than negativity, or how much easier it is to smash something down than it was to build it up in the first place. Brutality wins. Malevolence can only really be fought by rising to an equivalent level of malevolence, which is exactly how the wetiko disease spreads. It’s nearly impossible to resist being infected by it.

    Anyway, on to my irrelevant point. The wetiko virus seeks to avoid detection through rationalizing away its symptoms. One of the biggest myths our species has come up with recently is to put forward a myth that all us apes have always been this brutal, and that Darwin’s ‘survival of the most brutal’ has been the prevailing force throughout all of time and throughout all of humanity. This is a lie, and one that wetiko infected minds latch onto in order to rationalize the current behaviors of humans as being an inevitable and ultimately unavoidable fact of being a human ape. It even lets some people think that we’re currently doing the best we could hope for yet, compared to the supposedly more brutal and savage cultures that (supposedly) preceded us. But, this is a cop out, and it’s a lie that implies there never really was an alternative. This myth is just used to assuage people’s fragile egos by leading them to think there never was any other way to ‘be.’

    Like I said previously, it’s all a mute point now, but really, there are alternative ways of being and thinking, other alternatives to the wetiko mindset of ego, dominance, fear, greed and brutality. And no, this left brained academic approach to life was not always the only way, nor was it how everyone on earth behaved throughout our (de)evolution. It was a sickness of mind that spread and was nearly impossible to resist, a sickness that spread itself from one culture to the next, sparing no one it came in contact with. It was not ‘the way it’s always been’; it was a mental sickness so infectious that it swept throughout our species nearly completely, and has now wiped us all out. And it definitely came to America with Columbus, and it wasn’t here before he came.

    However, it matters not now, because what’s done is done. Native Americans were not savages, but Columbus sure was. But who cares right? It’s all over now. :)

  • Sorry, Daniel, you cannot revise history, especially with a few remarks or a book. It is what it is.

  • Guy, I think you are still in the anger phase of your grief. There are a lot of hints at blame and judgement in your messages, and those are manifestations of unresolved anger.

    It can be easier to just blame someone, something, or some group for the predicament the planet is in. But when we look at the situation objectively, detached, and dispassionately, we will realize that there is no one to blame.

    The cancer cannot be anything other than a cancer.

    Acceptance is both understanding that… and being at peace with it.

  • Into Destiny, that’s quite the judgmental statement about my judgment. Self-reflection may be in order before you reach conclusions about others.

  • Into Destiny- I think it’s pretty clear that Guy is in the “Gallows Humor” phase of his grief.

    Yes we are a cancer, but we are probably the only cancer in the history of cancers that could’ve chosen to be something else.

  • Guy, take the observation as you wish.

    Babajingo, you can bring up notions that the past may have been different if X happened, or Y was chosen, or Z didnt happen, but its just a thought experiment. It has no impact on reality, and the truth of the matter being that things ended up exactly as they have, and no amount of “could have”s will ever change that.

    “We could have been different” is still holding on to a part of the fantasy that is not reality; part of the fantasy that humanity is enthralled in, where they are… special, and rules and logic do not apply to them.

    You admit humanity is a cancer and functions like one, but then say its not a cancer and is different than one.

    So humanity is both humanity, and not humanity, simultaneously in that idea. That only makes sense from within the fantasy.

    What is, is.

    Humanity cannot be anything other than humanity.

  • @ TWIMC

    There was a time when some in the State Dept. thought Africans couldn’t be ruled, let alone provide rulers.

    Sounds crazy, doesn’t it.

  • I’m beginning to think that the ‘blame gang’ all graduated from the same online reading comprehension course, presumably taught by Seeing Eye dogs, because combined they barely make a lick of sense.

    @ Shep

    While you might imagine you’re speaking in some subset of the English language that only you have the key compassion to understand, anyone with even the most basic understanding of world history will read you to be but biased fools blinded by the same prejudice you imagine yourselves to be in contempt of. And where upon deeper consideration, one can sense that you’re most likely holding onto blame for the sake of hiding your own duplicity.

    So Shep, you say one can’t revise history, which I would agree. So when you write:

    “The worst feedback loop, by far, was/is elite greedy humans and will NEVER stop. Begun by whites and now continued by all dictators of people of all races.”

    That’s not considered revisionism in Shep’s reality, because somehow your understanding of history is that “elites” didn’t exist prior to 1492……….A.D.?

    I take it you’ve never been to Egypt? Never got around to reading the Bible, eh? Pssst……there aren’t any whites in any of those kingdoms, but don’t tell yourself that, otherwise you might have a crisis of consciousness.

    I know it’s a tad inconvenient to one’s prejudice to take in consideration literally the THOUSANDS OF YEARS of war, siege, pillage, rape, slavery, technological advancement, commerce, writing and royalty that predated whitey comeuppance, but what the hey, one man’s blatant revisionism is another man’s stated fact.

    You are simply a fool Shep, who can barely comprehend the words you write.

  • oldgrowthforest:
    wow are you one deluded self-aggrandizing know-nothing know-it-all

    the definition of a racist is someone who believes that some people are superior to others based on race

    you drip racism from your every pore.

    how is it that if someone treats humans as one species, with characteristics that describe all racial groups (if not every individual within every racial group), that person is a racist but you are not?

    little white ass
    did you read tending the wild? it is mostly a compilation of the words and extrapolated experiences, as far back as can be found, of the earliest california humans.
    before describing the rape and pillage of the land and the wanton destruction of the earlier human lifestyle when the europeans came, it chronicles how the earlier people treated the same land. clearing the undergrowth so they could more easily stalk the deer they were to kill, using nets to collect their fish, smoking animals out of holes so they could club them at the other end, on and on and on. you want to say that the difference between these people and the europeans was that one lived in harmony with the land and loved the animals as themselves and the other was a racist scourge? bullshit. those early people were increasing in population and needed more land under their control, more food, more technology. and they were developing it. all those piercers and containers. the europeans were ahead in population overshoot and ahead in technology and had gotten to a point of way more callousness about life and the value of the earth. but the early americans were going to get there, they were just behind on the path. all the evidence was already in. they just happened to get their asses kicked before they got to have to decide to not give a shit about anything else wanting to live in peace on the planet, because once humans came on the scene, sooner or later there wasn’t going to be enough to go around.

    this debate is stupid anyway. no one group of people is better than any other. it’s the species that is fucked up. all you have to see is where the species is heading. it’s not that hard to explain. don’t breed. stop wasting all your time posting to a website. do you do this because if you told an actual person what you think they would think you are an asshole and you would have to be embarrassed every time you saw them? go out and save some habitat. or something else useful. wow.

  • ‘Why is domestication never discussed on this blog?’ -mojo

    i think it has been, if u’re referring to human domestication. it’s certainly a topic i’ve become much more conscious of since i began reading nbl 5 years ago. i think it’s simply part of being civilized. civilization creates ‘wealth’, which results in class stratification, a hierarchy in which the upper class exerts control over lower classes and exploits them. domestication (taming) is done to facilitate this process, and is inescapable, institutional, pervasive. it tends to be very resented by those of us with awareness who prefer anarchy (not the absence of rules, but the absence of rulers), but hey, what are u gonna do? it may be cold comfort to know that civilization’s end is not far off, bringing an end to oppression/domestication. cold comfort considering we probably won’t live to see that day, and if we do, probably not for long. anyway, here’s a related video that’s been posted here several times previously:

  • I grew up as part of an oppressor group that was conditioned to think itself superior to the many. I don’t feel guilty about it, for I can see where anyone brought up in that caste would act likewise. But I can’t dismiss it either. My behavior, and that of my peers, was crippling and gave me many false and hurtful notions about groups of living beings, including animals. I will never even remotely become pure and good, but is there no reason to try and live more excellently? Without so much bigoted bullshit? Should I never take criticism or try to be better? Or are we all fated to be the worst assholes we can be? Or is it that everybody on NBL is perfect, with me the only lost soul?

  • Gene,

    Your definition of a racist is really the definition of a bigot.

    The definition of a racist is: When one race OPPRESSES another.

    I get this all the time here in the lovely old south where they say, OH I have nothing against blacks and then crush the shit out of them. The crushing is the racist part of the equation. OGF isn’t doing the crushing, whitey is.

    So, you do not understand the definition of racism. No wonder u are so wrong. You’re the problem, not the nice people on this site.

  • Daniel,

    You have been trashed by many people on this site before so I do not take anything you say as worthy of a thing.

    BUT, just like apnea, I am talking about SINCE 1492, whitey is the most ruthless of all the species AND only a small portion of that cohort.

    So u may think you are to blame for our extinction but I’m not taking any credit.

  • Artleads, I hope you are lost! We’re all lost, my friend, only most of us can’t see it. But, isn’t it better to feel lost and cast adrift than cock sure of yourself and your opinions? See, I think that’s what turns us into a cancer: always thinking that our way is the only way.

    When I see your name come up on the board, my first thought is that here is a nice person, a gentleman. That will take you a long way to becoming pure and good. It’s been a pleasure to meet you here.

  • I blame Wetiko, not necessarily “Whitey”, although the genesis and incubation of the wetiko happened in so-called “enlightenment” Europe among the monarchs, their pope and the pre-crackers. FYI There are plenty of “whitey wetikos” w/ melanin. Oreos, Apples, Bananas. Lovely colors on the outside, purest whitey wetiko on the inside.

    Reject the theses forged at the gates of hell by the likes of Camus, Fanon, et al, (and any and all other Algerians or persons of occupied colonial and neo-colonial territory etc) at your peril, as doing so looks like it may be the fast slippery slope to depressive melancholia.

    Yeah – if only I could totally reject centuries of indigenous scholarship and thought, and live in steady state harmony with my wetiko cognitive dissonance, then I could actually start making confident, blustering pronouncements using every possible permutated conjugation of the English verb “To Be”.


    [T]he race to innocence that helps perpetuate settler colonialism began to develop in social movement theory in the 1990s, popularized in the work of Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri. Commonwealth, the third volume in a trilogy, is one of a number of books in an academic fad of the early twenty-first century seeking to revive the Medieval European concept of the commons as an aspiration for contemporary social movements. Most writings about the commons barely mention the fate of Indigenous peoples in relation to the call for all land to be shared. Two Canadian scholar-activists, Nandita Sharma and Cynthia Wright, for example, do not mince words in rejecting Native land claims and sovereignty, characterizing them as xenophobic elitism. They see Indigenous claims as “regressive neo-racism in light of the global diasporas arising from oppression around the world.”

    Cree scholar Lorraine Le Camp calls this kind of erasure of Indigenous peoples in North America “terranullism,” harking back to the characterization, under the Doctrine of Discovery, of purportedly vacant lands as terra nullis. This is a kind of no-fault history. From the theory of a liberated future of no borders and nations, of a vague commons for all, the theorists obliterate the present and presence of Indigenous nations struggling for their liberation from states of colonialism. Thereby, Indigenous rhetoric and programs for decolonization, nationhood, and sovereignty are, according to this project, rendered invalid and futile. From the Indigenous perspective, as Jodi Byrd writes, “any notion of the commons that speaks for and as indigenous as it advocates transforming indigenous governance or incorporating indigenous peoples into a multitude that might then reside on those lands forcibly taken from indigenous peoples does nothing to disrupt the genocidal and colonialist intent of the initial and now repeated historical process.”

    Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz – Indigenous People’s History of the United States


    And some obviously deluded lunatic posted the follow passage on this very site October 26, 2014 :

    “Bigotry is not racism. Capitalists have capitalism, Commies have Communism. Racists exist in a system based on racial privilege called race-ism. (Hyphenate for better understanding if necessary).

    In order to be a racist, a person of African or Indigenous descent would need to control and benefit as a matter of institutional prerogative: the cops, the courts, the laws, the legislature, the judges, the banks, lending policies, interest rates, real estate zoning committees, tax policy, immigration policy, foreign policy, the Pentagon, the Fed of New York and the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Absent any of that, anti-caucasian bigots ~can not~ ~in any way~ be termed, coined or characterized in any way as ~a racIST.~

    I hope this has been informative and/educational for those who may be unclear on the etymology. Further evidence of Race-ism is the demand for the ability to arbitrarily re-define terms of grammar and linguistic definition to serve their own ends and purposes. I believe this to be perfectly clear to anyone who takes time or trouble to consider the issues.”


    and from two years ago, the same lunatic proclaimed:

    “Again, for those who don’t understand the English language: Race-ism is a system or paradigm of privilege based on race; as capitalism is a system based on capital and communism is a system based on community. Can we retire to an Oxford English dictionary to absorb the meaning of the suffix please? A racist is someone who participates in such a system of privilege and accordingly benefits from it. Included within this paradigm is the perceived ability to rearrange linguistic definitions to suit one’s purposes. Such as re-defining “racist” to mean bigotry and/or discrimination against white people, and thereby alleviating one’s conscience and subconsciously perceived guilt, and complicity, in order to bring about a negation of 400 years of excruciatingly documented history. [Someone] could only be a “racist” if he removed all your rights, enslaved you based on skin color, systematically oppressed you, removed all considerations of your humanity based entirely on ethnicity, split up your family, instituted a legal system of corrupt double standards based entirely upon melanin content, enshrined social practices of blatant discrimination, lynching, miscegenation laws, sterilization, eugenics and racial terror, backed it all up with extreme armed force and arbitrary death penalty for non-compliance, and then had the utter temerity to come out and call ~you~ a racist for refusing to acknowledge that such a system was in fact racist and racism in point of fact.”


    ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

  • I do not touch Collapse of Industrial Civilization. In fact I find it repulsive. Content provided there does not mitigate the behavior and attitude in practice of the moderator and site owner.

    Also, not really much interested in scribble, ecoshock, the facebook of doom, counterpunch, as they seem to be tediously long on attitude and opinion and decidedly short on real information and the hard data.


    And as far as “prepping” for the big one. I don’t prep anything anymore. All I can prep is my social psychology and practice. We will swim or not together. Not worth it for me to get out, survive or whatever without figuring how to being as many with me as possible, including the non-humans. I figure that the balanced ecology demands every human on the planet live in the forest like totally impoverished up-country Cambodian anarchists (yes Virginia, such people do exist: http://signalfire.org/?p=19122 )
    But since most people of privilege, especially those unburdened by melanin, would rather die a hideous protracted violent death than ever entertain the notion of “living” or “be-ing” like a Cambodian, we’re all but good and doomed. Thank you for your consideration.

  • (With apologies for the third post)

    Thanks, Kirk. That was very kind of you.

  • I’ve hoped for awhile that nature would kill me and everyone else, so I wouldn’t have to do it. I don’t really want to live anymore in this cesspool…and I don’t know how to die. I can’t seem to will my own death. odd as it sounds and even though i’m an atheist, i’ve had experiences that lead me to believe there may be some kind of reincarnation. I fear there will never be any rest. I’ve achieved many of my goals and still managed to become a pauper…I didn’t understand how ”money” was supposed to fit into the equation. all I had to begin with was love and that’s now been squandered, stolen and trampled in a thousand ways. now I’m full of hate, equal for all under the sun of course. it’s hell to wake up and realize that the things that motivated me were almost entirely lies and illusions, now rapidly turning to dust. if only love remains, I wish it all the best. better try to get some sleep.

  • Some passing insights which have arisen and which are of no fundamental utility in and of themselves :)

    Humanity is a single creature
    There are not two minds to be found anywhere
    The pursuit of individual liberation is a false trail
    None are truly free until all are free
    We are all in this together
    This life exactly as it is is truly a wondrous gift
    There is only love

  • To The Virgin Terry: Thank you so much for posting “The Story of Your Enslavement.” Holy CRAP. I hadn’t seen it before, and frankly here’s some kismet: the only reason I watched it is because it had an animated still shot from the movie “The Wall” and the very first post of this thread is also from that album/movie (and yeah, I posted it so that’s why I remember). Interesting connection…

    Re: the whole racism thread- I don’t wish to condemn anyone, but I will say that if you identify as “white” then please do not chime in. Yeah, I know you “have a right” to comment, but seriously please do not. There is a reason why you don’t respond to “#blacklivesmatter” with “ALL lives matter.” That’s whitey’s problem: we never fucking LISTEN. JUST LISTEN. FOR ONCE. PLEASE?!?!

    Thanks!!! ILYSM (if you don’t know what that means, please consult your nearest 14 year-old girl or the interwebs)

    p.s. I am as white as it fucking gets.

  • I’ve written a new essay. It’s posted here.

  • digixplor: sorry, I just realized this is my 4th post, but I just read your post and you seem like you’re in a really bad way and I don’t want to ignore that.

    Are you going to be okay? I don’t know who you are, where you live, or anything else about you, but that is one dire post. Please tell me that you’re okay???

  • Total horseshit Guy!

    A lot of surprised and panicked people with more money than sense, are scared by someone in their class being held account and targeted for any of their actions. So, I would expect someone who’s an executive for a major oil company and is doubling down by drilling for oil in the Arctic, to see Mr. Great White Hunter as a fellow traveler, but I have no sympathy for him…regardless of what happens to him! This is something he brought on himself.

    What you’re saying is: ‘let’s not hold anyone accountable for their environmental crimes as we watch mass extinction unfold, we’re all to blame.’ And I say: “Bullshit!” We live in a world where money is power, and those with more money have had more power to change the system and prevent mass extinction, but have deliberately chosen short-term gains and discounted the future for everyone.

    The disinformation campaign in the media that buries the evidence from public view didn’t just happen by itself. There are people who have deliberately conspired to hide the truth and keep us locked in to an unsustainable economic system.

    I don’t see myself just sitting back and being at peace while all hell breaks loose! I am not going out quietly if it happens while I’m still around.

  • @Into Destiny – From all vantage points, the fingers are pointed at our own reflections of guilt and conviction. Who among us has not made a mistake and then been angry at our conduct? We are the cancer that has plagued our host. We are responsible.

    “There is no refuge from memory and remorse in this world. The spirits of our foolish deeds haunt us, with or without repentence.” (Gilbert Parker)

  • These things get so messy, so sometimes it’s good to go back to the beginning. My initial comment about the new scientific findings that are in the news, and to be clear, this was a small part of my overall post.

    “How about that news that climate caused the extinction of the megafauna? Dang; who woulda thunk it? Many thanks again to whoever previously quoted Ward Churchill’s hilarious comment about early indigenous people causing the extinction of the megafauna (saber-toothed tigers, mastodons, prehistoric lions and wolves, among others)with “[our] little sticks.'”

    No one appeared to respond to my comment except Apneaman, who wrote soon after:

    “Seems to me the Aztecs had their kings, priests, elites, wars, slaves and human sacrifices long before Whitey showed up. China has a blood soaked, white free history as well. The list is long and we are just the most recent in a long line. Sorry to fuck up your narrative, but were a flawed, maladaptive species. A Megacancer.”

    Let us not get bogged down in who is bad and who is good, or whether we’re all the same. Let’s just look at my statement. It was a statement about a “scientific fact” that was previously accepted and touted by a number of people, including a number of people on this site, that has now been found to be without basis. I made no accusations about the fact that the megafauna extinction conversation has been popular here, nor did I offer any judgments about the whole conversation being stupid or racist at that time. I only brought up a good joke made by a Native American scholar about it.

    If I am incorrect and I misunderstood, I will certainly acknowledge that, but I don’t think I am incorrect. I think Apneaman didn’t like my mention of Ward Churchill’s joke, and didn’t like me using it to make fun of a recently (for some people) sacred-cow belief about how this whole show developed, a belief that was extremely useful in *scientifically proving* that all people are the same everywhere and everywhen, which is how the megafauna conversation was always used.

    I wonder if I went back through all the posts on this blog and pulled up copies of all the times posters here informed myself and others as to how all people act the same everywhere, and the now discredited Paleo-Indian-caused megafauna extinction event was their “evidence” that supported their contentions about the sameness of all people and all cultures, I wonder how many such posts I would find.

    I know there were many, and I just don’t know why no one wants to talk about it now that it’s been tweaked substantially. It’s mystifying. It was such a popular topic in the past, frequently used hand-in-hand with “noble savage fantasies.”

    And finally, let me be as blunt as possible: telling people that they have “noble savage fantasies” is the equivalent of calling someone a “nigger lover” when the other person makes any positive statement about African peoples. It’s just a really, really nasty, ugly dismissal, however it is one that is generally accepted in ordinary discourse, and one that is actually demanded among some truly misguided academics and people who consider themselves scholars. They cannot in the least believe that it is a pseudo-erudite version of racist name-calling, but that is exactly what it is.

    It is what Apneaman did when I mentioned Ward Churchill’s comment. I couldn’t get away with quoting a Native American making fun of mainstream “scientists” without hearing about how evil Native Americans were.

    So far, no one has yet to discuss this fascinating news about climate change and the megafauna extinction. I’ve been told many things about myself, got to read all about “noble savage fantasies” a few times, been insulted repeatedly, and as usual, provided someone else’s words by Dr. Datta, who apparently has no original words of his own to articulate, but . . .

    no one, mysteriously wants to talk about the new scientific findings.

    It’s all so mystifying. The aversion to a previously frequently mentioned and much touted subject leaves me at a loss.

  • yup, thanks baba…perfectly fine.

  • ralph m, your comment is a finalist in the category of completely missing the point. However, I commend your use of two types of compost.

  • baba…if you’re a p.floyd fan, try to get your hands on a couple of syd barrett solo albums. warning, you may be going down the same path I have. ….. https://youtu.be/XkRR7eaDiFQ

  • ralph m, I agree. Why not call the shots until the very end, at least for some of us?

  • I’m pretty new here so I’d appreciate if someone could direct me to some projections or simulations of coming extinctions.

    I’m a man of numbers, so in order to get the clearer picture of what lies ahead – I always try to look for some measurable conclusions.

    When you account for all the processes of climate change, reduction in diversity of animal species, pollution etc. – at what pace the loss of habitat is going to cause the mass extinction event of the human race.

    Is there a prediction on human demographics in respect with the ongoing extinction. All currently public estimations account for none of the extinction-driving processes – they just suppose the growth of the population will go on indefinitely. Based on current trends and not the underlying neccesities to sustain such growth (or, the very existence on humans). Such mega events surely can’t happen overnight.

    So, what is the predicted number of humans on Earth in 2030, 2040, 2050, 2060… ?

  • Does anyone know if Newton (not Fig who wore a G strap to hold up his apples) takes the lion’s share of the blame (Sea Level Fall: The Forgotten Aspect of Sea Level Rise?)?

  • @ who knew

    I gave up, finally, when Jerry Mitrovica got to relaxed gravity.

    Should have stopped at rebounding holes in the ocean.

  • Snowstormguy, I think the closest thing that might satisfy what you are asking for is the “Limits to Growth” modeling, which has been pretty accurate up to now: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse

    “Public” estimations, remember, can also be political. They are not so straight-forward. It seems to be allowed that scientists and others may nibble around the edges, predicting 1 year of water left for California (NASA), or the disappearance of this or that ice sheet, or the reduction/extinction of some single species of tree or animal.

    This describing of the elephant by the blind men is allowed. But describing THE WHOLE ELEPHANT is still taboo, and you are right: nobody is really documenting ALL of the degradation at the same time IN ITS ENTIRETY that I know of (Guy assembles many key pieces on the climate front: more than enough to make his case if you are able to use your general intuition). That is why NBL has become a precious space on the web: not because it can offer numbers *precise* to within a year or five or ten (it can’t) but because it can connect a lot of dots.

    [You also have to be careful about how many dots you connect, because I think people are liable to suffer from “dot overload”, reaching a point at which information no longer becomes coherent, and people mentally bail out like a pilot from an aircraft that is crashing.]

    Here’s the thing about “Science”: not only is it often too conservative, borne of a systemic institutional need not to make unsubstantiated, wild-ass guesses (garbage-in, garbage-out is of course a major blind spot), but it is always playing catch-up. Guy refers to this often in his talks. We can only assess data collected years ago, because it takes years to work its way through the review-and-publication pipeline. When talking about non-linear systems, though, days can be as years.

    And then “Science” is a human-based endeavor, fraught with human bias. What is the most-often-heard phrase connected with climate/ecological reporting? “Faster than predicted”, and its variations: “larger than expected”, “drier/hotter/wetter/colder than previewed”, and so forth. The majority of people, scientists included, are in a constant state -these days- of being “surprised”, although anyone who has been taught the notion of exponential equations should not, at this point, be allowed to claim “surprise”. I write, “should”,.. but the reality is that most of us do not process information in a realistic way. http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2015/04/programmed-to-ignore/

    Overall, to make matters worse, we’ve generally persisted in scientific specialization, so it is no wonder that the right hand most often doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. This is true of modern medicine as well (for example), along with increasingly nonsensical and counter-productive specializations in every conceivable field of human endeavour. It’s almost as if -by intent- there was to be an absolute minimum of those capable of actually witnessing and drawing conclusions from larger perspectives. I have my own ideas as to what guarantees that.

    Finally, there is the political aspect: who would ever fund something like “Limits to Growth” today? Nobody, except maybe the War Department, and they’re not talking. Now.. while the LtG folks don’t appear to have addressed abrupt climate change per se, they did account for pollution/waste including waste heat.

    As to your question, “what is the predicted number of humans on Earth in 2030, 2040, 2050, 2060…” Some here would say zero, zero, zero, and zero. My own opinion as of today is somewhere between the first and the last zero, but it has been pointed out that extreme temperature shifts can express themselves over a shorter period than decades. So really it could be any time, as those Russian scientists say about the imminent giant methane release.

    Personally, I think it is too much to ask of even the most diligent scientist today: to commit to naming such a number. Think about meteorologists who (as they do in the United States, anyway) predict rain at 4:00 p.m.. People get angry when it rains at 5:00 p.m. or 6:00 p.m. instead. That’s the kind of margin we are talking about. “Those weathermen never get it right!”

    Just look up at the entire expanse of sky from horizon to horizon, if you can, and watch the clouds for a day (my husband and I have had opportunities to do this recently, unlike most scientists who dwell in cubicles) and I’m sure you will see that the clouds above can be still, while you perceive a lot of wind on the ground; or the clouds above seem to move fast, while the air on the ground seems relatively heavy and stagnant. The clouds move left, while the surface air moves right. Trees to the left have their branches gyrating wildly, while trees to the right seem calm. The perturbations are infinite, locally, but the overall trend (breakdown in the maintenance of self-organizing systems due to increasingly compromised access to concentrated energy paired with ongoing outsized heat release associated with current and prior human access to stored concentrated energy) dictates the final, general, outcome, the trend more important than a number or a day or a year. It’s too easy to get caught up in the kind of “gotcha!” trap that Paul Erlich got suckered into: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager

    Difficulty lies also in describing the parameters: how many fish or bees are “too few”? How acidic an ocean is “too acidic”? How little water can a modern industrial city run on? We can measure the physiological limits of the human body relatively easily, as Guy describes, but how hot does it have to be before an industrial city ceases to function? To what degree can it persist if the asphalt melts? How do people get to work? Can they perform their jobs without air-conditioning? How long can they survive without their “jobs” or without their cars which allow them to access the industrial food supply? Can the industrial food chain function, not just with fuel, but without asphalt and rubber, or when the asphalt/rubber loses its structural integrity? See James Howard Kunstler for the fun that awaits high-rises and sky-scrapers.

    Ugo Bardi has made a study that focuses on mined metals and minerals; that might also be worth a look: http://www.clubofrome.org/?p=6166

    We don’t know the answer to all of these questions, because we’ve never been here before; we can’t just “run the numbers” like with a normal business plan or something. Little of this is subject to experimentation, none of it is repeatable like a “good” laboratory experiment. We only have the one shot at it, and what answers do come in will also be different from place to place.

    And then let’s not forget that there are vast realms that very few study at all, much less come up with global numbers for. We are only now starting to investigate… just scratching the surface of how and how many bacteria influence the human organism’s gut and even our psychological behavior. We’re very far from comprehending the soil-web-microorganism community’s effect on plants. This is research destined to a dead end because of lack of time and resources. The clock is just running out on this.

    Just to wrap up… some folks think the tripwire to massive societal collapse and die-off rests on the global banking system, more fragile actually than even the real ecosystems which sustain it. As in the time of the Great Depression during the early 20th century in the US and elsewhere, lack of access to abstract “money” could easily pulverize supply chains that would otherwise materially be able to function. We have far fewer underlying resources now than during that time and the times of the World Wars, but those times were brutal enough.

    SSG, thanks for joining us! Your comments are very intelligent and nuanced and your English very good indeed. I lived in Italy for a number of years, and had the occasion to visit Croatia very briefly. I thought it a beautiful place. Like Italy, I can only assume it is subject to all the corruption and global corporatization that is endemic to modern industrial society, which I had hoped to escape by moving to Europe. Sadly I found that, just as in the United States, the garlic in Italian supermarkets was imported from China. :-(

    Sorry for the long comment, but as Mark Twain quipped, I didn’t have time to make a shorter one.

  • @Lidia
    Thank You very much for your response!
    Now you’ve gave me a lot of information to process.
    I didn’t think anyone would put that much effort to help me get a better grasp of the situation.

    We don’t have hollistic approach in science anymore. Most of the people will be faced with this fact when in need of some more complex medical treatment – it is not uncommon for cardiologist to prescribe you a drug that destroys your kidneys, but the nephrologist don’t search for answers there just gives you another drug that eventually destroys your liver and so forth until you become sicker then ever before. All of them just see their tiny bit of the picture and often couldn’t care less about overall state of the patient. They probably never will figure out what went wrong, and therefore never be able to find a way out of it.

    Surely the logic is applicable to the state of the Earth’s ecosystems today.

    I agree, that I probably ask too much – no one can predict such events with such precision.
    It might happen that habitat loss will be so fast that billions will die in a matter of a few years. That the human population of the Earth will plummet from some 8 billion in 2030. to 1 billion in 2040., and then to 0,1 billion in 2050… But humans are super adaptive creatures, thus some scattered “tribes” of modern hunter-gatherers maybe coupled with non-intensive, organic agriculture may survive for much longer. If they are prepared well, reasonably using current technologies to help them live an overall primitive life. And of course – it’s the location, location, location: maybe the soil will be gone globally speaking, but sure there can still be pockets of previously unused land, especially at the edges of forests, full of humus and near water sources.

    I know of several places like that in mountainous parts of Croatia. Temperatures there are about 8 degrees lower with 4 times more precipitation (5 degrees Celsius avarage yearly temp., over 3500 mm prec./year) than in central parts of Croatia – and as of today, even there the agriculture is going very well. Those mountain ranges are stretched near the sea so I guess that will diminish the effect of temperature rise as opposed to less maritime regions.

    Globally of course, 4 degrees warmer means collapse of the civilization. But 4 degrees warmer locally, at a location similar to which I’ve described – may still provide means for human existence.
    I truly doubt that those forests (and it’s inhabitants) will perish at 4, or even 6 degrees temperature rise: and that conclusion is based on logical observation – mostly the same “mix” of plant and animal species that live in 4000+ feet elevations, are also found on low slopes as far as only 600 feet elevation (all kinds of trees, bears, deers, foxes, rabbits, wolves, lynx, birds…)

    And still, even in those low lying, much warmer/drier habitats, ecosystems thrive – bear, hog and deer populations are on the historical maximum, and also there is a historical maximum in forest covered area. For plants and animals to survive, I presume, drought is more dangerous than heat… There are bears, hogs and deers comfortably living in 8-10 degrees warmer climates than are in those mountains, and the same species of plants can be found living in 10-12 degrees warmer climates – all that provided there is enough water.
    And there most likely will be, even if the current precipitation amounts get cut in half, the area would still be considered a very humid one.

    Underlying reason for the process of rejuvenation of the local nature is probably depopulation of the small mountain hamlets – nearly 50% over the last 20 years. Young people are fleeing to live in the big cities and slowly, wilderness gains back what was taken from it. Having in mind human ignorance, I truly doubt this process will change even in the wake of global apocalyptic events. And when the SHTF-event occurs, rarely anybody will have the place to go to, have the needed knowledge to survive or mental preparedness to deal with such outcome.

    Unfortunately, the places I’m talking about complrise a very small area, maybe barely enough resources for a few thousand people in the 4C-6C warming, so they may become a refuge for only 0,1% of current population of Croatia – and probably similar goes for most other countries. Of course, as I’ve already said, nothing will save the civilization. But such places could be habitable for much, much longer… maybe even all the way to 2100. They could become like small islands of life in a deadly sea, oases in the vast desert. But if the warming continues above that, even that small remote communuties will eventually perish.

    Why am I bothering you with all that? Probably because I’m very keen to see “the End”. If it’s inevitably going to happen, I sure don’t want to be among the first casualties… Just opposite, I strive for being one of the “last men standing”.
    Not because I’m expecting some light at the end of the tunnel as the conditions are likely to only go from bad to worse – but for the curiosity and the very thrill of it. I’d really like to witness the whole process of human demise… it’s the most important event in many thousands years.

    And the process of adapting to new conditions when the civilization collapses, if I’m well prepared – may actually bring me (an my fellow men) closer to nature, to the old ways of living… Experiencing “real” life, being a member of a small self-sustainable “tribe” deep in the mountains, surrounded by beautiful scenery, peace and tranquility… Even if it would only last for several years – could be an experience worth a lifetime as an inmate of a prison called “modern society”.

    I’m just guessing… For example, a few years ago there was a year-long drought, worst in history (at some places only 40% of the normal precipitation) coupled with very hot weather (at some places, almost 3 degrees above normal) – as early as mid-August, in most of the country, trees started losing their leaves… it looked more like late October, only with >35C temperatures. Really terrifying.
    I suppose, if the conditions persisted for another year or two – at least half of the Croatian forests (and many of the neighbouring countries)would be gone for good. Not to mention agriculture would almost went to a halt, and also electric energy supply (50% of Croatian needs are covered by hydropower) would be in danger – we have even experienced water supply reductions.

    And having im mind it was only a local event – if it affected the whole world at such strength, than most of the forests and agriculture of it would be gone, and in the period of only several years that could destroy the civilization.

    But, in the aformentioned extremely humid mountain range – it seemed like the abundance of sunshine and warmth, coupled with less but still more than enough precipitation – actually yielded strongest plant growth that I’ve seen in years…
    You may argue that for inhabitants of that small area of less than 1500 square kilometers, the worst year in history became one of the best. Strange but true.
    For example, usually you’d get only one tomato/cabbage harvest due to harsh climate, but that year – there were two harvests. Chestnuts and walnuts that grow there but rarely/never get ripe enough to be eaten – got ripe that one year… It seemed everybody are happy with the weather – humans, plant and animals.

    And in winter, instead of -30 degrees celsius, and about 25 feet of cumulative snowfall – there was barely -20 and about 12 feet of snowfall. Again, everybody were ok with it. Less firewood used, easier to maintain roads clean.
    How the effects would be in the long run no one can tell, but from what I’ve seen I can guess that most of the country would suffer greatly, while that small patch of mountains could just flourish.
    But again…that was only about 2,5 degrees warmer, what happens at 4,6 and beyond?

    Sorry for a long post… It’s that I don’t know anybody with whom I can share such thougths. No one that I know is interested (yet they often complain about the weather).
    Thank You one again for all the effort and given links.

    Have a nice day!

  • @Lidia
    Regarding non strictly climate-related issues.

    Recently I’ve found out that Russia is giving some 30 million hectares of land (up to 2 hecares per person) in the Far East to whoever applies (EAU citizens)… Around Komsomolsk-na-Amure, and maybe south of it towards Shikote Alin Range and to the north towards Chersky Range…
    Beautiful pristine nature.

    Millions of young people have applied already – and about 2/3 of them stated that they want to establish organic farming, and small sustainable communities.
    They have resources, technology, acreage, bitterly cold climate and obviously much less MSM-brainwashed people.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if 20,30 years from now Russia remains the only functioning country in the world.

    Apart from Arctic warming, most of Russian territory would actually benefit moderate increase in temperature. High-latitude food production is about to become more and more efficient, and having in mind hundreds of millions of acres of unused arable land, largest unpolluted fresh water reserves… They forbid the use of GMO and strictly regulate pesticides in their food.

    Exactly opposite to Western propaganda – Russian Federation may be the only country in the world (or surely, one of the few) that cares about well-being of it’s citizens. And the sanctions imposed actually help to increase self-sustainability.
    Too bad I don’t have Russian citizenship…

    And your comment about garlic – yes, it’s rediculous: in Croatia it is also almost impossible to find non-Chinese garlic (in the supermarkets).
    But there are still many people growing their own food so not all is lost…
    And corruption, criminal, organized betrayal of the people by their government… it’s just plain horror.
    And since we are a member of the EU – the bureocracy is only pressing harder. Almost makes me happy to think that one day all will be gone some day within my lifetime.

  • @SnowStormGuy

    I’ve enjoyed our exchanges. Your passion and optimism are both palpable and laudible. Unfortunately, they fall into the category of “hopium”; Horatio Alger meets Sir Thomas More. I promise I’m not being mean-spirited, only practical. I used to be the epitome of a combined Walter Mitty and George Plimpton.

    I wanted to continue our last thread but didn’t want to violate posting rules. Truly, if not for the painfully heinous radiation exposure-caused death, I’d love to be sitting with you on top of a Croatian mountain when the SHTF there. I’ve heard it is a beautiful place.

    But, the beginning of the end will happen suddenly and the dominoes will fall at an ever-increasing rate from which no one will be able to hide.

    The power grid will fail and the immediate impact will be, not without warning, because TPTB won’t be attentive or prepared. Since 9/11 our, and Russia’s, defense systems have had 3-minute fail-safes on over 2,000 missiles. The President can’t decide what to have for breakfast in 3 minutes. Even if every command center could countermand, most nuclear power plants will not have time to safely shut down.

    Like you, I had a plan for my last moment. Originally, I was going to head out to Colorado and set up a lawn chair outside a nuclear power plant. Now, I’m thinking of sitting in the shadow of the Washington Monument. Either way, and probably because life has been rather painful of late, I’d like to be instantly vaporized.

    To paraphrase a line from the film, “Hunt For Red October”, ‘I would have liked to have seen Croatia’.

    I will hope you are able to enjoy your homeland for as long as possible. I’ve heard the Pasticada is to die for.

  • this is addressed to that moron digixplor: lord of the fucking dance? I’ve never met such a stupid narcissist. 99.999% idiot.

  • 100 % chance.

  • For clarity, I am pointing out that “moron digixplor,” disparaged by kilgore trout and gnome chimpsky, is using the same email address and IP address as both of the latter. In other words, they are almost certainly all one person (i.e., troll).


  • See, this is what happens when nobody talks to you.

  • Hello @JC Dolph

    Thank you for your comment (despite some parts of it not being exactly the music to my ears).

    So, it seems that you’ve managed to get off of that powerful narcotic, heh?

    You believe that it will all end with a bang…OK. Who am I to defy it?

    In that case – when you notice big mushrooms on the horizon – “be sure to wear some sunglasses in your hair”. That way you could put them on really fast to get better view.

    Anyway, I think that such event would come only after years of major disruptions in supply chains, transportation which will trigger total economic collapse, then the police and armies will institute curfews and start protecting important infrastructures (such as nuclear reactors) and all the available resources will be desperately put into preventing/postponing all that meltdowns… And as the resources get scarcer by each day, you would live to see many wars and rebellions in most of the coutries…

    Thus, in order to survive all of that which would likely precede “the big bang”, you’d better be somwhere far away… I’ve found my spot. Or at least I think I have… still have some time left to change my mind.

    How long this chaos can grow worse without triggering the nuclear apocalipse – the final chapter of Homo “sapiens” success story – I don’t know, but I guess it could take some years.

    And when the time comes (you’ll probably figured out when):
    Make your favorute beverage, find comfortable position in the rocking chair on the terrace with a nice view, put on some heroic compositions (I suggest Richard Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyres or Gustav Holst’s The Planets Suite – Mars, The Bringer of War)… and just face the music!

    Maybe you could also prepare some “pašticada” the day before to go with that beverage… I gurantee you it’ll be to die for. Literally.

    And now some nicer themes – on the links here you can see how the views from my mountain look like. I think it will become clear how did I pick the nick “Snowstormguy”.


    It’s been really nice talking to you!

  • @ Snowstormguy Says:
    August 4th, 2015 at 6:45 am

    Recently I’ve found out that Russia is giving some 30 million hectares of land (up to 2 hectares per person) in the Far East to whoever applies (EAU citizens)… Around Komsomolsk-na-Amure, and maybe south of it towards Shikote Alin Range and to the north towards Chersky Range…
    Beautiful pristine nature.

    Reading the Wiki-page about Komsomolsk-on-Amur and viewing the few dozen images available on Google Maps, it seems there are few, if any farms or “ranches” in that area. It appears that the region is primarily forested mountains and sandy(?) valleys, not to mention a “bit” cool, none of which would be conducive to more than a few “crop” species. I have to question the viability of this region for human survival when access to food and other resources from distant locations becomes non-existent. At least, there will be plenty of wood to burn for heat, light and cooking while admiring the vistas. Of course, never having been there myself, I could be wrong.

    However, checking the pages for the Chersky Range and Sikhote-Alin Range, including some of the links available here, perhaps an influx of “human-meat” will be of benefit to the indigenous, wild creatures of the region! ;)

  • @Colin
    I can’t be sure because I’ve got the information second hand… From an article about great interest for free land in Russian Far East.
    And because there said many would like to get into organic agriculture on a small scale – I presumed it can’t be around Yakutsk or Irkutsk or anywhere within the polar region. Therefore I concluded that most of it would be around Komsomolsk. And in direction TOWARDS Chersky Range and Shikote Alin – not right IN there. My mistake – I should have been more specifc, but the exact locations are only a guess anyway.
    Even Kamchatka comes into play – personally, I would very much like to be able to live there despite harsh conditions. It’s one of the most beautiful and untouched corners of Asia.
    Probably I shouldn’t report before getting better information but it just seemed like an important thing.
    That’s it for now. If I stumble upon some more precise information I will let you know.

  • probably moose or elk for protein…but vitamin c could be an issue,,,but what would I know, I’m not a numbers guy.