Presentation from mid-April in Bristol, U.K.

Comments 79

  • The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them; that’s the essence of humanity.
    George Bernard Shaw

  • Great presentation. Thanks for having the courage to bring this important and difficult subject to an increasingly large audience.

  • It is pure torture for me to watch a decent fellow like John Nissen desperately fulminate & flounder in such confusion.

    His apoplectic agitation speaks for itself.

    His SO2 dimming from coal burning theory is phantasmagorical farce.

    Scribbler just posted a definitive piece about the evolution/mutation of nitrogen fixing bacteria in the oceans.

    “In essence, researchers found that Trichodesmium evolved to fix nitrogen more rapidly under higher ocean acidity and atmospheric CO2 states at 750 ppm levels. But when atmospheric levels returned to 380 ppm and when oceans became less acidic, Trichodesmium’s rate of nitrogen fixation remained locked in high gear. For an organism like Trichodesmium to get stuck in a broken rate of higher metabolism and growth is practically unheard of in evolutionary biology. Organisms typically evolve as a response to environmental stresses. Once those triggers are removed, organisms will typically revert to a near match of previous states. Strangely, this was not the case with Trichodesmium.”

    to repeat; “… Trichodesmium’s rate of nitrogen fixation remained locked in high gear. For an organism like Trichodesmium to get stuck in a broken rate of higher metabolism and growth is practically unheard of in evolutionary biology.”


  • Dr. McPherson is who I focused on.

    05:25 “… I’m not making a prediction here, I am not saying it will be, I am suggesting it could be …”

    The other fellow, Nissen, is not here yet.

    We are all ignorant in some areas.

    FYI, an unreported story (False Climate Change Meme Infects The President – 2).

  • Mark Austin,

    Alexander Cockburn: “Pose a political threat to Business As Usual, and sooner or later, mostly sooner, someone will try to kill you.”

    It’s just the way it is in Kapital Land.

  • @Mark Austin

    About those radiation baseline flights over Boston ….

  • The following is exceedingly long, and may be some thing Mark Austin might like on NBL, now that he’s prohibited from posting here (sort of) by his employers.

    These are observations that have to do with the people who run the show in Washington. Mark has been trying to get them to do something less bad than they otherwise might. Even something modest like protecting fuel storage at nuclear plants is really very significant. This is in support of those sorts of limited goals.


    Congratulations on getting Faraday cages around fuel containments! This is a solid achievement, of which you can be proud! Now to see if other nations have the same…

    Despite Mark’s mistreatment and pain, I don’t see what happened as altogether bad. It seems to have gone exactly to plan.

    DC officials are living in a different world from the rest of us. Given that DC drives BAU all over the world a challenge to its paradigm, as Guy would offer, would have to be existentially upsetting. And if Mark can hang on (and not have his superiors come down even harder on him) he will have actually “succeeded.”

    A rough guess is that the original “approval” (for Guy’s talk) was based on the assumption that Guy was an interesting character who would push them a bit but not absolutely smash their cookie cart to smithereens. Then they figured out that this is precisely what Guy would do. But they haven’t figured out that this would actually be better for them. It’s too big a step to expect in one sweep.

    It’s a subtle and gradual process. Maybe they still see Mark as one of them, who just got a little overwrought and could do with a little counselling. So far so good. But a time bomb has been thrown into their midst, and they can’t ignore it. (And they can’t blame Mark for it, since they don’t think that comprehensively.) The next time DC floods they will remember. Climate disasters are actually on OUR side. Mark can sit back a little now and let the climate do ITS work. That is a respectful way to see nature. It is working with us (us being the dominant culture that needs/wants to change). No need to worry. The ice is breaking off the ice shelves all by itself. Let it be.

    Contrary to appearances, America is not all powerful. In this hyper interconnected world, it is highly susceptible to global pressure. I doubt that DC feels that susceptibility inside the cocoon where Guy would have spoken. WHERE it will feel more pressure is where all planetary eyes will be watching: at the 2015 climate summit in Paris.

    That conference needs to launch a Marshall Plan for the planet that looks at climate change as part of a destructive (now global) SYSTEM! But since Kumbaya is unrealistic, a minimalist project to tie off some of the hemorrhaging within the system might be something to aim for.


    Part II

    Others can do this so much better than I. But let’s say an exceedingly rough presentation of cause and effect went like this:


    Climate change is real.
    Ice is melting
    Sea level is rising
    Blah blah blah


    The global economic system is unstable
    It is based on infinite growth, which doesn’t work on a finite planet
    But the economic system can’t be willfully ended precipitously


    – Climate deterioration is costly and destabilizing, so we need to pay attention to mitigation.
    – Economic decline is going to remove the possibility of addressing emergencies caused by climate change and power plant meltdown.
    – Decisive minimalist action is needed now.


    – While it lasts, we need to sacrifice BAU in structurally manageable ways.
    – Part of that requires allocating global resources to safeguarding ALL nuclear plants.
    – Part of that requires setting up a global land use planning program–creating more resourceful hub communities that can take better care of themselves after collapse.
    – Part of that requires special land use planning around nuclear plants worldwide.

    Guy had talked about attending the conference, but it sounds as if he is winding down such commitments, especially such expensive ones. Others like Bill McKibben, Naomi Klein or Pope Francis might have an agenda somewhat in line with the above (even if Guy might not). DC would do well to align itself with the Pope et al to try, selectively, with great focus, to move the needle somewhat. In that case, I wouldn’t see Mark’s activities as inconsequential.

  • I actually feel sorry for Bru in this video. He’s so earnest and hopeful, if not exasperated. As for Guy, I think there are very few people who would walk into a presentation like this and be able to accept his message unless they’re already on board with his position. I’m guessing the 7 or 8 people who agreed with Guy’s perspective showed up in that room already agreeing with him. But I’m glad they were there, at least. It’s sad to see a room full of people desperately looking around saying, “We’ve got to do something! Call your elected officials immediately! Otherwise we face catastrophe!” when you already know the catastrophe is upon us.

    My resistance to geo-engineering is not JUST that I think it’s too late and will probably screw things up further, it’s also that at this point, even if you said there was a miracle that could save us, I’m not sure I would want to save us. I think we’re horrible.

  • SNOWSTORMGUY – on second page of You can click & watch the short computer model of atmospheric radiation spread after a examples of limited kilo-ton nuke exchange between India & Pakistan.

    The MIT fallout simulator shows how the entire Northern Hemisphere gets a lethal dose…which still dose not include any number of reactors that might meltdown in the UK, France or USA.

    My “Orwel” therapy get’s me out of work an hour early. But I’m breaking their re-balancing help by returning to NBL!!! For reasons that are much too politically incorrect to explain (because they involve areas of the world with radical belief systems involving the 4th “red moon” eclipse) This Sept 21-28 is now oficially a high def-con alert level.

    Of Course I also know there are profits in the Pentagon defense manufactures getting us alarmed. But the alarms can never go as far as people stopping work or shopping!!! Dire news is fine to share as long as it encourages people to want more research & SOLUTIONS. Activisit = activity. The only DREDD is us not mining mars and asteroids for minerals. Turns out the worst thing I can do is nothing. Even Snowden feeds the media circus. I can sign up for 2 more years on contract here and be as alarmed as I want…as long as I do “something” – anything that’s worker bee constructive except tell sheep to stop feeding the Matrix of expanding empire.

    Christmas displays are already going up at the Potomac Mills mall. So I guess that means Industrial Civilization knows better than I. SABINE might remember the WW2 slogan: “stay calm & carry on.”

    Supporting Dr. Guy Mc Pherson EVIDENCE:

    Current targets for 2030 would make the 2 C goal “almost infeasible”, it found.

    The level would instead be closer to “2.9-3.1 C by 2100,” Bill Hare of Climate Analytics, a CAT contributor, told AFP.

    The authors said the current level of ambition should not be locked into the long-awaited Paris agreement — the first that will commit all the world’s nations to slashing CO2 and other planet-harming greenhouse gases.

    It was important that the pact, due to enter into force in 2020, included wording on narrowing the gap between what is needed and what has been promised, they warned, as diplomats met in Bonn for the penultimate round of official negotiations before the crucial November 30-December 11 Paris conference.

    “It is clear that if the Paris meeting locks in present climate commitments for 2030, holding warming below 2 C could essentially become in-feasible, and 1.5 C beyond reach,” said Hare.

    Thanks for the personal note Guy. Your always a gentleman. I currently feel how you must sometimes suffer for being the messenger of “Following THE EVIDENCE”

    ARTLEADS – PLEASE copy & post your analysis from of how this canceled D.C. presentation can turn out to benefit Guy. Good ideas!!!(I’m supposed to avoid NBL & dire data for a week but D.C. free press might be interested in reporting on why the lords of Empire fear the one part of Guy’s message to live in peace & hospice.) some bet they fear another Gandhi halting empire in it’s tracks with civil resistance.

  • In that video, I noticed from my perspective, that:

    1) Guy presented very well,
    2) his material was, on the whole, convincing;
    3) the audience was not homogenic;
    4) our side won.

  • ‘Draw down carbon dioxide’ whilst at the same time adding 35 billion tonnes per annum: golly gosh, why didn’t I think of that!

    ‘Set up gigantic refrigerators and refreeze the Arctic Sea’ whilst at the same time continuing to run the super-ginormous heat engines on the rest of the planet: golly gosh, why didn’t I think of that!

    ‘Burn coal, separate the SO2 and deliver it to the stratosphere [via rather large smoke stacks]: Yay!

    ‘Paint to tops of clouds to increase their reflectivity’: true brilliance!

    All we need now is to persuade the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Warburgs, Schiffs etc. to create some money out of thin air and throw it at the ‘problem’ and we’ll be away……with the fairies.

    I concluded many years ago that after bought-and-paid-for politicians, media mega-magnates, advertising executives, banksters and lawyers, the worse specimens of humanity are engineers and project managers. Indeed, it could be argued that engineers and project managers are actually worse than those aforementioned, since insane schemes ‘to improve things’ cannot be implemented without there complicity.

    It has been abundantly clear to me for many years that the chief source of problems is ‘solutions’.

    Did I hear correctly? Use diatoms to oxidise CH4 in marshes to CO2? WTF!

    I guess ‘we’ must have added about 30 million extra ‘clever apes’ to the gross population overshoot since April.

    Good to see that one or two members of the audience understand.

    It’s starting to get interesting again:

    We’ll know in just 4 weeks.

  • Guy cuts through the b.s. and tells it like it is. How are you going to argue with scientific facts?

    Earth has 3 trillion trees but they’re falling at alarming rate

    The number of trees has fallen by about 46 percent since the start of human civilization and each year there is a gross loss of 15 billion trees and a net loss of 10 billion, said Yale University ecologist Thomas Crowther, who led the study published in the journal Nature.

    “There are currently fewer trees than at any point since the start of human civilization and this number is still falling at an alarming rate,” he said. “If anything, the scale of these numbers just highlights the need to step up our efforts if we are going to begin to repair some of these effects on a global scale.” [what “efforts” sir?]

    kevin moore: that was a great comment, thanks!

  • Mark Austin- What a gift to have someone with your perspective willing to share.
    Best wishes and thank you for being here.

    From the previous thread – and Little White Ass- re the Rainbow Warrior Legend ….
    Well, that brought back memories.
    I had never seen the legend written down.
    I first heard it in 1970, on Alcatraz when I was 20.
    I had the honor of being on one of the boats bringing in food and supplies to the native americans who were occupying the island at the time.
    I remember one sentence in particular that has stayed with me ever since – they said something about 7 generations, then,
    “And there will come a time when your children will no longer be your children, they will be our children, the warriors of the rainbow.”
    It had already happened to me, when I was 15, and peyote was legal. A friend gave me 3 of the sacred cactus tops. I had a hard time getting them down, but I was determined. Alone.
    Nothing has been the same ever since. my inner compass was set.

  • One: Climate change is now the best reason to start the police state Two: The economy is ready to collapse anyway but abrupt climate is the perfect reason to seize control they see the panic on the horizon
    Three: If they slow things down to much they might trigger dimming
    Four: The exponentials are now running the show anyway, so damage control will be the only alternative soon
    Five: None of the above

  • .
    Thanks for the James Taylor, he’s one of my all time fav’s.
    How’d you know that? Wait, don’t answer that, you just knew.

    @mo flow
    From the previous thread, thanks.
    Campfire stories on the beach at the edge of extinction.

    @Everyone here … what a great bunch of folks you all are.
    Cheers! :)

    Now … off to finish watching Guy’s video.

  • @Phil, thanks for that link.

    “…If you pollute when you DO KNOW there is NO safe dose with respect to causing extra cases of deadly cancers or heritable effects, you are committing premeditated random murder.” – John W. Gofman, Ph.D., M.D. (1918-2007), associate director, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory 1963-1969) — Comments on a Petition for Rulemaking to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, May 21, 1994.”

    “holding warming below 2 C” Anyone who uses this language of control—as though we can dial planetary parameters up or down—is insane right out of the box.

    @kevin moore, you couldn’t be more right. You have to laugh at their ridiculous schemes to keep from crying. Don’t you understand that the more clever apes we breed, the more Net Aggregate Cleverness®™?? DON’T YOU?!?!

  • Very good presentation by Guy.. thanks.

  • insane schemes ‘to improve things’ cannot be implemented without their complicity.

  • Slight correction on priority post- Number Three: undimming not dimming, if that’s a word yet, will check, 2nd post and also forgot to Say Love and safe Labor Day. Great presentation Prof. You kick ass

  • Mark,

    I posted what I thought you wanted me to at 3:14 today. I wasn’t trying to “benefit Guy.” Nor anyone else. Not that I could if I tried, or that they need it!!!! You are a link between small potatoes like me and the bigwigs. I gather that the bigwigs don’t know what’s going on around them (being cocooned). I’m making a wild guess as to the dynamics of their world, that’s all. As Lidia suggests, they are hearing from insane “scientists.” Gail Tverberg has also suggested that they don’t know what to do. There’s the old saying, when in doubt, don’t. My suggestion, in a broad sense, is that they do nothing. “Nothing” assumes that the 400 plus nuclear plants on Earth (that I first heard Guy mention) should be minimally safeguarded–to the extent that is politically doable. Based on my vast ignorance of science and politics, I surmise that what you have done is all that can be done for now. We are in your debt.

    I was trying to make a link between climate catastrophe and the need/possibility of using the Paris conference to bring nuclear nations somewhat together to take minimal, practical steps to jointly (and somewhat transparently) admit that the gravity of climate and economy calls for tightening nuclear safety comprehensively, even just a little, around the world. I’ve always thought that successfully taking the smallest possible steps is the best way to take bigger steps. So I’m looking to Paris for a very small step. IMO, absolutely nothing has been accomplished by climate conferences up till now. And I wouldn’t blame anyone for dismissing with annoyance all I’m saying.

    I don’t see that I’ve succeeded in making the climate-nuclear link.

    So if anyone could benefit, it would be the administration, provided they can see what I’m (unsuccessfully) trying to say, and actually move the needle of “acceptance” and prudent action a tiny fraction. Hard to believe that they will.


    Since you know Mark a little more personally than the rest of us, I’m hoping you can help us see what he’s going through. His personal and work situations seem pretty unsettled.

  • Fossil Fuels, high ERoEI, high Net Energy, high conversion of Primary Economy (resources) into Secondary Economy (products, including food), support for a population in overshoot. End BAU, end support for the overshoot, dieback to non-overshoot level, or dieoff (NTHE). Continue BAU, go deeper into overshoot before declining Net Energy / ERoEI results in dieback or dieoff. Ending BAU will mean less suffering.

  • .
    Yes, thanks for posting your video Guy. Each time I hear you speak, I get a little something more from you. You have a real knack for finding the right words and phrases for what some of us perceive, yet maybe can’t so eloquently put into words.

    This time, for me, it was during the debate section. To see the contrast between you, who correctly points out the sheer arrogance of the human superiority complex, and the commentator who tried to define us as the creature destined to march off into the universe like it was our birthright, that was a magnificent rebuttal by you.

    I really felt for Bru as he tried to defend humans as being some magnificent creature that deserved to carry on. Honestly, being an empath, I really truly feel bad when I see someone like Bru on the precipice of coming to terms with how insignificant humans really are; that moment when someone almost comes to terms with the realization (and then feels the shame) of the folly of our inflated self importance. That’s a painful moment to watch someone have. At least for me it is; it’s like watching a train wreck.

    Anyhow, ya. Save what? Civilization? What for? So we can cut down every last tree? Kill every last fish? Multiply to fifty billion for centuries to come? (As if that were even logistically possible.)

    That’s what struck me the most about the debate at the end. Save what? Where the hell is this all heading anyway? When is too full too full? Extend it for a few more years, and what then? The same problem anyway, that’s what. That’s the epiphany people will be having over the next few decades, like popcorn popping in a pot. Pop, pop, pop.

    All around the carpenters bench, ‘aha’ goes the human!

    “The Lorax said nothing. Just gave me a glance …
    just gave me a very sad, sad backward glance …
    as he lifted himself by the seat of his pants.
    And I’ll never forget the grim look on his face
    when he heisted himself and took leave of this place,
    through a hole in the smog, without leaving a trace.”

    From ‘The Lorax’, by Dr. Seuss (worth the read.)

  • Momentum is inertia (resistance to movement) in the absence of velocity, and resistance to stopping in the presence of velocity. Momentum is related both to mass and velocity, as in f=mv^2 which bears an uncanny resemblance to e=mc^2. Velocity is vector, flow is scalar. Correlating flow with inertia requires directionality. Momentum is energy present statically or dynamically.

  • How in the fuck do Obama and Dan Utech have the gall to DEMAND “solutions”? They are simple idiots in a circle jerk? (They are in fact…”mirrors reflecting into the darkest chambers of the American soul”)

    “In the name of addressing climate change, Obama, with his order for new Coast Guard icebreakers, encouragement of National Park use, and of course permission for Shell Oil to engage in off-shore drilling, has placed the Arctic in a massive capitalistic framework, suitably militarized and commercialized, to accelerate the very thing he claims to oppose. Even if emissions were controlled in the Lower 48 (which will not be the case), point-specific damage within the Artic itself will transform the ecosystem into a step-by-step collapse of safeguards into a slithering mess—courtesy the American value system of waste, want not, bully all comers. Climate change, far from being just another issue, becomes a mirror reflecting into the darkest chambers of the American soul: a contempt, as though enthralled by a death wish, for life itself. Whether the US has murdered villagers in a Vietnamese hamlet, engaged in support of death squads in Latin America, actively encouraged the greatest concentration of wealth in US history (and consequent economic and social degradation of the unemployed and working poor), or consciously, willfully raped the environment in myriad ways, these actions are all of one cloth, the violation of life, future as well as present generations and the Nature which sustains us all.”

  • .
    Sorry, I meant to post this passage from the Lorax instead.
    (need edit abilities here)

    From Dr. Seuss, ‘The Lorax’ …

    And then he got mad.
    He got terribly mad.
    He yelled at the Lorax, “Now listen here, Dad!
    All you do is yap-yap and say, ‘Bad! Bad! Bad! Bad!’
    Well I have my rights, sir, and I’m telling you
    I intend to go on doing just what I do!
    And for your information, you Lorax, I’m figgering
    on biggering
    and biggering
    and biggering
    turning MORE Truffula Trees into Thneeds
    which everyone, everyone, EVERYONE needs!”

    And at that very moment, we heard a loud whack!
    From outside in the fields came a sickening smack
    of an axe on a tree. Then we heard the tree fall.
    The very last Truffala Tree of them all!

    Oops. How ’bout we just don’t? The jig is up, enough’s enough.

  • Robin

    ‘Momentum is inertia (resistance to movement) in the absence of velocity,’


    I’m not sure what point you were trying to make but I
    I must point out that some of what you wrote is completely wrong.

    An object has momentum when it is moving. Mass x velocity = momentum.

    Inertia is actually an abstract concept in so far as it is generally regarded as being resistance to change in momentum. Yet in practice there is no resistance as such, just application of a Newtonian law force = mass x acceleration. For a given force, a larger mass results in a smaller acceleration. And once a body is moving it remains in motion at constant velocity in a straight line until acted on by a force.

    Translating physic into societal phenomena is a ‘challenge’.

    The political-economic-financial system has momentum in so far as it keeps moving in the same direction at approximately the same speed. It also has inertia in so far as it resists change of speed [downwards] and resists change in direction [towards sanity].

    In other words, as I have said many times before, they’ll keep doing it till they can’t.

  • Gail Zawacki’s portion of the Extinction Radio podcast regarding trees from the last thread reminded me of the song at the beginning of this video (about 30 seconds in). If you’ve never seen the whole film, check it out. You might find it pretty interesting. Les Knight’s approach reminds me a little bit of the way Guy has to deal with ignorant naysayers:

  • The two most notable statements in the video, IMO, were:

    1) the accelerating loss of habitat essential for the human species is the most critical issue – Dr. McPherson

    2) there is a planetary emergency – Dr. Nissen

  • Lack of oxygen killing marine life in waters of Washington state’s Hood Canal – ‘It’s a dead zone anywhere east of Sister’s Point to Belfair’

    (Seattle Times) – A lack of oxygen in southern Hood Canal is killing fish, crab and other marine life, according to Seth Book, a biologist with the Skokomish Tribe who has been monitoring the marine waterway.

    Through the month of August, Book and other Skokomish staff have observed dead English sole and thousands of dead and dying eel pouts on the beaches. They also have found masses of dead cockles and butter clams, and on Friday, Book said he saw hundreds of crab along the beaches that were trying to get to the surface to breath.
    [sic, forgot the e]

    In another area, off Hoodsport, upwelling had pushed the deep water to the surface, and a University of Washington buoy on Friday detected almost no oxygen in surface waters.

    Over the years, Hood Canal has repeatedly had low-oxygen summers that resulted in die-offs, and this year is shaping up to be one of the worst. The long, narrow body of water has limited circulation that leads to the low oxygen levels known as hypoxia. [more]

  • Boreal forest being driven to tipping point by climate change, study finds – ‘’The changes could be very dramatic and very fast’

    (The Canadian Press) – Climate change is forcing the boreal forest that covers much of northern Canada to a tipping point, concludes a newly published study.

    “The changes could be very dramatic and very fast,” said Dmitry Schepaschenko of Austria’s Institute for Applied Systems Analysis.

    Schepaschenko was one of three authors who collaborated on a detailed review of current research on the boreal forest. Their conclusions were released Thursday in a special edition of the journal Science.

    One of the authors is from Natural Resources Canada, but was unable to speak on the record because of restrictions placed on public servants during the federal election. [wtf?]

    The boreal forest is one of the largest ecological zones on the planet. It covers much of northern Canada and extends into Scandinavia and northern Russia.

    Although it remains largely intact, it faces the most severe expected temperature increases anywhere on Earth. Schepaschenko said some parts of Siberia are likely to eventually become 11 C warmer. [more]

  • Two cents (with apologies):

    Guy has interjected some shocking concepts into a society moving (through inertia, momentum, whatever) to the most incredible crackup imaginable. The society cannot absorb Guy’s message to stop in its tracks. Politicians were elected (as Guy has intimated) to keep the system going, but also to make it go faster. We tend to be ambivalent (through denial or what?) about the intractable reality of the system, thinking Guy talking to the “leaders” of the system is somehow positive. Maybe it would be, but people who are charged to keep the thing going and speed it up must either drop out, go mad, or deny the possibility that Guy is correct. Guy has decided to step back and do more of what he loves. This strikes me as not only wise but practical.

    It’s like courting a mate. If you can just bowl them over by force, that’s one thing. The other alternative is to be subtle about it. Drop a hint, and wait for the situation to turn in your favor. As Tverberg wisely suggested by analogy to society, there tends not to be a middle way to changing minds. Guy has dropped the hint. Nature is doing a spectacular job of making the remaining case. The “leaders” will have to figure things out for themselves. We can’t bowl them over. We drop a hint and let time and nature take its course.

    My best advice to MARK AUSTIN is to follow Guy’s course and step back too, after planting a seed as he has. It is counterintuitive to stop “pressing the case.” But an old colleague of mine once told me he was advised by a detective as follows: “Don’t press the case.” Brilliant advice about life, I think.

    In an earlier post, Mark assessed that he could be most effective by “doing nothing.” Maybe he should follow his own advice and get out out while the getting is good.

  • So… putting together the title of a book by Peter Ward, (which I haven’t read) with recent reports from NBL commenters, can I assume that the Earth is going to feature green skies and purple oceans?

    Ah.. that really is a bummer.. that is something that I would have liked to witness with human eyes, but I guess human eyes will be surplus to planetary requirements by the time such a thing manifests.

    Bloody typical. You wait 3 million years for the combination of a decent planetary colour scheme and the optical equipment with which to appreciate it, and it happens just after your optical equipment gets dessicated into oblivion, along with the rest of your equipment. God is a sick bastard.

    Anyway, green skies and purple oceans are probably better in imagination than in ‘reality’. Most things are.

    I always preferred the secondary colours over the primaries. You must have noticed that the empire builders almost without exception use primary colours for their flags? The unassuming little countries that are just trying to get by without aspiring to strut arrogantly over their neighbours almost always have flags of secondary colours?

    Well- maybe that’s a simplification. Most things in my mind are.

    Simplifications, that is.

    But there is something about red and blue in combination that just makes your brain scream: “FUCK!…RUN!!!”

    I don’t suppose my reaction is unique? I especially feel for sensitive non-authoritarian Americans who have resisted the usual cultural indoctrination. It must be hell.

    Still, thinking back to the little bit of London Olympics opening ceremony spectacular I saw on the box, the Brit team actually outdid the US team in terms of displaying ‘characteristic’ American behaviour like whooping incoherently, posturing, high-fiving, camera-gurning, etc. Fwiw, the US team were a model of restrained decorum in comparison. It was embarassing. Most things are.

    Red and blue…

    Purple and green…

    Colour psychology, eh?

    “– Decisive minimalist action is needed now.”

    Artleads, that is priceless! Can I use that?

  • I wonder who…this is? This is NOT hyperbole. I will say it is normal puke-misleadership in the Go(o)d old USA.

    “But there will be a reckoning. History will judge this president harshly, as it has judged criminal leaders of the past, from Rome’s Nero to Italy’s Mussolini or Uganda’s Idi Amin. It may strike some as hyperbole to put President _____ in league with such universally acknowledged monsters as these, but when human beings begin dying by the millions because of climate-change caused famines, floods, droughts and international armed conflicts we will surely look back at the actions and inactions of this particular president, who had the opportunity to make a huge difference and chose not just to do nothing, but to make things worse, and will say his crimes perhaps exceeded theirs.”

  • 1984 excerpt

    pg 321
    “…Above all we do not allow the dead to rise up against us. You must
    stop imagining that posterity will vindicate you, Winston.
    Posterity will never hear of you. You will be lifted clean out
    from the stream of history. We shall turn you into gas and
    pour you into the stratosphere. Nothing will remain of you,
    not a name in a register, not a memory in a living brain. You
    will be annihilated in the past as well as in the future. You
    will never have existed.’

    pg 343
    ‘You are rotting away,’ he said; ‘you are falling to pieces.
    What are you? A bag of filth. Now turn around and look
    into that mirror again. Do you see that thing facing you?
    That is the last man. If you are human, that is humanity.
    Now put your clothes on again… It will not last for ever,’ he said. ‘You can escape from it
    whenever you choose. Everything depends on yourself.’

    ‘You did it!’ sobbed Winston. ‘You reduced me to this

    ‘No, Winston, you reduced yourself to it. This is what you
    accepted when you set yourself up against the Party. It was
    all contained in that first act. Nothing has happened that
    you did not foresee.’
    He paused, and then went on:
    ‘We have beaten you, Winston. We have broken you up.
    You have seen what your body is like. Your mind is in the
    same state. I do not think there can be much pride left in
    you. You have been kicked and flogged and insulted, you
    have screamed with pain, you have rolled on the floor in
    your own blood and vomit. You have whimpered for mercy,
    you have betrayed everybody and everything. Can you think
    of a single degradation that has not happened to you?’

    Winston had stopped weeping, though the tears were
    still oozing out of his eyes. He looked up at O’Brien.
    ‘I have not betrayed Julia,’ he said.

    O’Brien looked down at him thoughtfully. ‘No,’ he said;
    ‘no; that is perfectly true. You have not betrayed Julia.’

    The peculiar reverence for O’Brien, which nothing
    seemed able to destroy, flooded Winston’s heart again. How
    intelligent, he thought, how intelligent! Never did O’Brien
    fail to understand what was said to him. Anyone else on
    earth would have answered promptly that he HAD betrayed
    Julia. For what was there that they had not screwed
    out of him under the torture? He had told them everything
    he knew about her, her habits, her character, her past life;
    he had confessed in the most trivial detail everything that
    had happened at their meetings, all that he had said to her
    and she to him, their black-market meals, their adulteries,
    their vague plottings against the Party—everything. And
    yet, in the sense in which he intended the word, he had not
    betrayed her. He had not stopped loving her; his feelings towards
    her had remained the same. O’Brien had seen what
    he meant without the need for explanation.

    ‘Tell me,’ he said, ‘how soon will they shoot me?’

    ‘It might be a long time,’ said O’Brien. ‘You are a difficult
    case. But don’t give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or
    later. In the end we shall shoot you.”

  • Another excellent presentation. Thanks, Guy.

  • Les U. Knight of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT) is one of the calmest, most easy-going people I’ve ever met, and Nina Paley’s creations concerning overpopulation have yet to be outdone.

    Here is one of her best:

  • Army of one

    Clive Coleman: Naked Rambler ‘to continue protest’

  • @Artleads, that’s one of your best comments. You’re right that certain things cannot be forced.

    You asked about Mark, but I really don’t know much more than what he has put out here publicly. I believe he is going to “straighten up and fly right” until such time as he can collect his pension. He’s not a big enough fish to make real waves. I hope he doesn’t get any more negative fallout (ha! fallout!).

    @Pauline, “Nothing will remain of you, not a name in a register, not a memory in a living brain. You will be annihilated in the past as well as in the future. You will never have existed.” This is true of all of us at some point, anyway.

  • Lidia,

    Thanks! Wishing Mark the best.


    “– Decisive minimalist action is needed now.”

    “Artleads, that is priceless! Can I use that?”

    Sure! But the other side of the coin is to do it comprehensively throughout the ENTIRE planet. (Maybe there will come a time when it is understood that the planet is ONE SINGLE system and not a 150,000 of them.)

    Also, rather than spend our tax money and send people to Paris just to play the fool, something tiny might be better aimed for, providing that it is done properly. Something that is below the political and nationalistic radar: practical steps to prevent other Fukushimas, not attempts to stop nuclear development; mapping the entire freaking planet to see who owns what land, not stopping illegal logging or palm oil plantations; transferring economic activity (without asking anybody to sacrifice money) from a stupid thing to a less stupid, or even sensible, thing. Etc., etc., and so forth…

  • It is so depressing to watch this video and hear about all those talented and very bright engineers who have some really good ideas. They just cannot get over themselves, can they?

    Maybe rather than working on sulfates, if those engineers are so fucking talented, maybe they can get to work on cleaning up Fukushima and all of the rest of the radioactive pollution that is everywhere.

  • All of us, at times, think our scientists know it all.

    Not so:

    the Antarctic ice sheet is poorly known

    (The Agnotology of Sea Level Rise Via Ice Melt, quoting USGS).

    They don’t get together enough to know it all, by learning from each other.

    In other words, we don’t know all they know, and neither do they (Peak Sea Level – 5).

  • @oldgrowthforest, you said:

    “Maybe rather than working on sulfates, if those engineers are so fucking talented, maybe they can get to work on cleaning up Fukushima and all of the rest of the radioactive pollution that is everywhere.”

    Yes, how true.

    But, one of the problems I’ve noticed is that to let anyone clean anything up, is to admit that there’s been a mess in the first place. And I wonder sometimes if industry worries that if they admit they’ve made a mess (by having someone clean it up), then the public might get antsy about them making the mess in the first place.

    It would alert the public to problems and undermine they’re ‘don’t worry, no danger here’ PR campaigns. It seems they deduce that it’s better for business to downplay or just outright deny there’s been a problem in the first place. That means keeping anyone from cleaning it up and tipping off the public to the dangers inherent in their industry.

    Dishonesty and selfish interests are our downfall. It all comes down to integrity.

    Admit nothing, deny everything. Followed by go extinct.

    Although, it needn’t have been this way. Integrity.

  • Maybe this guy could help with the Arctic gas predicament. If he doesn’t rate quite that high, well at least he’s in a clath by himself.

    …can I assume that the Earth is going to feature green skies and purple oceans?

    Anyone else notice the close correspondence to Pynchon’s often-mentioned colors, magenta and green ? Just a coincidence, sure, but did it give you a tingle when you read it ?

    And we bid you goodnight…

  • Infant:

    RE: Feyhman video

    I noticed this comment: “For after all the great religions have been preached and expounded, or have been revealed by brilliant scholars, or have been written in fine books and embellished in fine language with finer covers, man, – all man – is still confronted by the Great Mystery. ~Chief Luther Standing Bear – Lakota

  • @infanttyrone

    Thanks for the dose of Pat Metheny.
    Ha, ha, pronounced Methane(y). Good one.
    Takes me back to my jass years.
    Good to see he still plays with Lyle Mays on the keys.
    Cheers. ♪♫ ….. ♪♫

  • How realistic is Guy’s hope that some life will make it through the fast developing climate catastrophe. Suppose temps do go 15 C higher and all the nuclear reactors melt down. Will anything beyond bacteria be able to live in such a toxic, overheated and chaotic environment? Perhaps those tape worms that live off of heat vents at the bottom of the ocean… buy beyond that….

  • from the last thread: thank you Caroline for your comment on the video that I made with my dear son during his visit in August (about all the trees dying in Montreal) and posted on NBL to share with my doomers community. It was a yearly visit where love was ALMOST overwhelmed by sadness.

  • @twimc

    Feynman remains the top clown in all of physics. He was funny as hell and excelled at misdirection.

    His only interest was in creating equations that agreed with experiment. He said, “Because physics is an experimental science and the framework agrees with experiment, it is good enough for us.” Beyond that, math and logic were of no use to him.

    IOWs Feynman was one of the best pseudo-mathematicians in all of heuristics.

  • @milendia
    I’d like to thank you for posting your video too. I really liked the magical song that you sang to the trees. Being stationary, trees are very sensitive to whatever comes around them, and can tell when someone is emoting at them like that. Regardless of their state of health, I’m sure they loved your beautiful song. Thanks for caring for them in that way. Trees can interpret intent. :)

  • A theme you could infer from this blog is that the good guys lost. The obvious question (to those of you who identify as being a good guy and identify with the blog’s theme) is why did you (YOU) lose?

  • What about a petition to ban space travel?
    Logic dictates that if mankind is messing up this planet they will others too.
    I wonder what reaction that would get.

  • Costs 2 million to go to a British settler colonial project? Oi. Who came up with that proposition? Was it the Maoris? have several spec skills that could possibly get me across the electrified border fence into the NO-GO lands, a place that might allow me to survive a few more weeks in the self-annihilating blender, sharing breathing space with a bunch of punk rich pukes who got enough money killing, screwing or maiming exactly ‘who’ over the past 25 years? in order to pay a bribe or something to the Kiwis?… or, god forbid, having to actually spend time with the very white very British people posing as the “owners” or “runners” or governors of that patch? Bzzt. I’m out. Good Luck to you down there. I’ll take my chances in the wastelands, as at least much of the company would be tolerable.

  • Cindy Lane.

    The obvious question (to those of you who identify as being a good guy and identify with the blog’s theme) is why did you (YOU) lose?’

    Where have you been the past n+1 years? We have gone over it all n+35 times. Those who run the system are criminals and have loaded the dice, tilted the playing field, rigged the deal, manipulated and lied to ensure they win every time (in the short term).

    No need to start petitions against space travel. Space travel is impossible for humans. Anything higher than low Earth orbit exposes living matter to deadly radiation, which is why the Russians, though far ahead of the Americans in rocket technology, never attempted it.

    ‘Planned’ missions to Mars are just another aspect of the entire phony PTB narrative, along with ‘the hydrogen economy’, ‘clean coal’, ‘weapons of mass destruction ready for launching’,’carbon trading’, ‘freedom and democracy’ and all the other lies told by the empire’s agents to keep the proles believing in the system.

  • ‘I especially feel for sensitive non-authoritarian Americans who have resisted the usual cultural indoctrination. It must be hell.’

    it is. but while amerikan authoritarianism may be exceptional in some ways, it’s far from unique. i think wherever civilization exists, so do rulers/’authorities’ who make life hell for would-be freethinkers and freelovers. the worst part however is not fitting in society, being alienated and isolated socially. marginalized/oppressed. not being free, don’t u agree? everywhere ‘authority’ is deceitful, violent, ruthless. and authoritarian followers are sheeple with shit for brains. stupid-crazy. they complement one another very well, to our surreal detriment/chagrin.

  • Dieoff Timeline Survey closes Monday.

    Get your votes in this weekend to be counted.


  • @ littlewhiteass: here is from who the music in our video came from

  • “…authoritarian followers are sheeple with shit for brains.”

    What if they’re really lost in the lies ? What if the authoritarians are ,too?

    I think Guy ( & others… ) are pulling together some good compass headings , seat-of-the -pants dead reckoning skills, excellent clues , and some very handy emotional intelligence to offer people a reason to throw away the crummy maps we have been renting since we were babies..

    -Thank you for that. -JJ ( just one sheeple in Detroit, USA )

  • Blaming the “sheeple” for being successfully lied to, manipulated, & bamboozled is THE tragic misdirection.

    You surely wouldn’t blame innocent children for believing in their adult taught childhood religion.

    Kiwi Kevin & John Joslin have seen right through the constant daily subterfuges from the elite whores at the top of the political pyramid.

    Rudimentary behaviorism demands such a basic understanding of control from the top.

    Here are two “respectable” Merican Secretaries-of-State, both Ivy League grads & trained lawyerfish openly advocating the outright vicious murder of innocent Iranian people.

    MURDER for career advancement!

    OUTRIGHT MURDER, as in Iraq & Libya!

    Baker & Hilarious are both working for Israeli Zionist state expansion – not the people of the United States.

  • @Little Blanco Butt – I have a lot of thoughts as to why engineers with AMEG would believe the solution is a mechanical solution, and that they have the plan.

    I had a friend in the early 80s who was a chemical engineer. That friendship ended when I informed him of my own opinion that his relatively high-paying work in testing chemicals on animals for the purpose of developing grooming and beauty products was not really needed or ethical work. He didn’t like my perspective. I’ve been this way since I can remember, and rejection because of it is something I’ve dealt with for just as long.

    There is an article on AlterNet today by Jonathan Latham, PhD, on how he used to be a GMO scientist and how he’s having “serious second thoughts” about his previous work. No shit. Oh, and he never dreamed people would use his work to genetically modify real food. Oh, the betrayal of it all, eh? How those non-scientists “misuse science” is one of his complaints. Right. Because all those scientists are just neutral, and they don’t have any responsibility for what they put out in the world. Everyone else has such responsibility, but scientists think they are above all that.

    People misuse science? Like Midas misused his golden touch, or how Icarus flew too close to the sun? That human-beings-aren’t-really-all-that-smart message that exists in every culture and has since long before humans moved out of the caves? This guy basically states that he didn’t realize how complex biological life is and how much those great scientists didn’t really understand back then when he was signing up to enable Monsanto. In other words, his hubris got in the way of him making decent decisions about pursuing a life of decent livelihood.

    Scientists and engineers don’t like to even contemplate, much less actually talk about, all the things they’ve fucked up over the past century in pursuit of their egos and money, and what they call “scientific knowledge.” I’m going to use culture as a point of argument here, but I’m not talking about culture, I’m just talking about reality. This culture has carried on for thousands of years about the greatness (made in God’s image), the specialness, the talented and creative nature, the intelligence of “man,” and his superiority over “the animals.” (They mean the “other animals,” but they don’t like that particular perspective, either.) Hubris has a special place of honor in western psychosis.

    Naturally, it never occurs to these people that they might end up doing something they so profoundly regret that their lives will be forever diminished and damaged when reality finally catches up with them, overtaking their self-serving, ego-driven perspective, which is that they are great human beings of higher intelligence, and on their way to doing great things for themselves, their families, and the world.

    Talking about the measurable consequences, the damage, the loss associated with all that supposed greatness of “man” leads to . . . rejection, derision, contempt, job loss, poverty, relationship loss, isolation, possible mental illness accusations or worse, as Mark is discovering, and much, much more.

    I started out as a biology student in college in the 70s. I found that I loved nature but I really didn’t particularly like most scientists. Of course, now I realize I just don’t like most people all that much, and scientists are, in the end, just people who are no more talented at decency, honesty, integrity and moral choice than anyone else is.

    The world is not merely heating, it is poisoned. Geoengineering of the atmosphere with more toxic measures when we cannot know the full consequences of those measures is more of the same – human hubris out of control – still. If they’re so talented and smart, undoing the toxic mess the world is in is plenty for them to work on. They don’t like that idea, however. It’s not new and creative and exciting and there’s no attention (prestige or fame) or money in it.

  • Pentagon halts work with bioterror germs at 9 labs

    The discovery of live anthrax outside a containment area at a military lab in Utah prompted military officials to order an immediate freeze on operations at nine biodefense laboratories that work with dangerous viruses, toxins and bacteria, the Pentagon announced Thursday.

    The moratorium, first reported by USA TODAY, came after officials took a detailed look at policies and procedures at the labs and found them wanting, according to Defense officials. Labs at the Army’s Dugway Proving Ground facility in Utah have been the focus of international concern since May, when the first clues emerged that the facility had been mistakenly shipping live anthrax — instead of killed specimens — to labs in the USA and abroad for years.

    An ongoing USA TODAY Media Network investigation has revealed numerous safety problems at government, university and private labs that operate in the secretive world of biodefense research. Federal lab regulators are conducting comprehensive reviews of how they oversee lab safety and security.

    Couple this information with the latest report that WE are the most feared terrorist group (sovereign citizens) of “our” government and draw your own conclusions.

  • @ancientmanytrees ( ;) )

    I hope you didn’t misinterpret my response to you. I was speaking to why industry won’t let anyone (attempt to) clean up radiation from fukashima. I hope you didn’t interpret my comment as referring to supporting ideas of ‘cleaning up’ the atmosphere with more pollution in the form of bio-engineering. Obviously I’m against bio-engineering in the atmosphere, or anywhere, as it would just be piling new stupidity onto old stupidity. Whatever applied scientists touch, they fuck up … in my view, the age of reason ushered in the age of insanity.

    I completely agree with what you’ve written. I have argued often with people who say, ‘It’s not the scientist’s fault if someone uses their knowledge for ill purposes; the science is neutral.’ Bullshit, I say back. If you have a good reason to think your knowledge will be used for ill, then you have a responsibility to NOT PROVIDE IT. TO QUIT YOUR JOB. That’s what the word integrity means.

    I was, for a short time, a computer scientist. I graduated at the top of my class. When I saw how I was only ever automating people out of employment, I quit and walked away from the field. That also came with a huge financial hit to me; it meant poverty actually. Since then, I’ve refused to ever work for any corporation, in any capacity whatsoever. The tao has seen me through, and I didn’t die.

    I wish other scientists would do the same and stop feeding the monster. However, they are weak in spirit, and have mortgages to pay (oh waaaa). I agree with you completely, I have very little respect for scientists and the Pandora’s Box they continue to mine in the name of innocent knowledge. Like Guy has defined: humans are not intelligent; there are merely just clever. Deviously and self deceptively clever. But, they certainly aren’t intelligent. Dirt is intelligent; it serves its function and stays within its realm. Humans could learn something from dirt.

    I hope you can see we’re on the same page here oldgrowth; bioengineering would be a fool’s errand and sheer stupidity. I hope you didn’t misunderstand my thought to you. Thanks for your whack at science; I applaud and support you. :)

  • I do indeed understand that we see much the same, LWA. I take a whack at human beings who are supremely irresponsible and entitled, and who justify themselves in the name of science. Because in reality, it’s not about science, it’s about the people. They don’t get a free pass from me in connection with all the, as you say, “scientists aren’t responsible for what other people do with the knowledge they provide” sociopathy (irresponsibility).

    Of course, they’re responsible for selling themselves and their efforts to anyone with the money who would have them. Sounds remarkably like prostitution to me.

  • This is addressed to little white ass, I agree with about 90%
    of your views. I myself have 2 B.S. degrees in study of social
    science I learned a long time ago the majority do not move off
    their asses until it challenges their consuming way of life.
    As Michael Ruppert said in his documentary Apocalypse Man the
    part about honoring the natural instead of the artificial self
    defeating life styles that we have pursued in the name of capitalism, I myself have no respect for any human that pursues the artificial instead of real. As I stated before on this site I think a lot of
    this crap in society came about when mankind learned to take/steal food, kill one another for their mate, and so on and so forth, and still we have not broken the cycle. So maybe mother earth should kick our ass because we screwed her over to many times to keep count any more.

  • Gerald.

    I prefer to think of her as Hi[gh]liar, rather than Hilarious. I’m sure people who have been victims of her life-long machination and criminality, whether in Arkansas or the Middle East, are not amused.

    The fact that she is a compulsive liar with no basic morals was why she was selected as a prime candidate for high office back in the 1980s……and given all the necessary breaks to propel her there.

    Tony B Liar fits the same mould, as does Shonkey.

    When such people run up against people like Putin, particularly Putin of the revitalised Russia varietyg, the wheels fall off not long after.

    A funny thing happened on the way to money-printing-based prosperity:

  • All we have ever been taught is a lie

  • The worlds in a bad place at the moment, over our centurys we have turned to poetry to express the “tide of the people”

  • I’ve posted a new essay, along with an updated video from Jennifer Hynes. Catch the latest information here.

  • Robin- Thanks so much for posting that video!! I just watched the entire thing. Guy’s re-posting it in the new thread, which is good news. I hope everybody watches it. Very sobering, but worth the time. Thanks again!

  • @LWA,

    I also apologize if I appeared to misunderstand you. I was actually just agreeing with you.

  • .

    No need to apologize. Upon reviewing my first comment to you, I thought I might have sounded like I was implying someone should let the engineers muck with the atmosphere. I just wanted to be clear were I stood on that. Thanks for the conversation about scientists. You brought up a pet peeve of mine: people who compromise themselves in order to earn a paycheck. It’s a difficult subject for sure. Self sacrifice has never been a very popular idea.


    Now that I’ve expressed my disappointment in scientists, I want to clarify that I wasn’t referring to scientists such as Guy McPherson in my rant. Guy is the kind of scientist I can appreciate. He looks broadly at all the issues, viewing them from multiple angles and perspectives using a variety of disciplines. He must obviously be one of those right brained people; someone who assimilates ideas and translates them into the larger picture, he forms a holistic perspective. Not enough people seem to do that.

    Guy is the type of person we’ve always needed; someone who can temper scientific knowledge by questioning its ethics and usefulness from a broader perspective. Some people are very myopic and get drilled very far down into the rabbit hole of a singular point of knowledge, and then they seem to lose sight of the larger picture, the ramifications, and the ethics.

    Guy seems to be the opposite; he takes the larger picture view, and can then extrapolate consequences, and then is willing to question a point of knowledge if he sees negative repercussions. I admire how that he takes the long view. I in no way meant to disparage him when taking my shots at the age of reason. I think he’s one of the good folk. I wanted to have that clarification visible in this thread before it closed.


    Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, when fear and lack mentality sets in, it’s hard for people to avoid treacherous, duplicitous behavior. It’s also hard to break the cycle of fear and lack when fear and lack are being strategically marketed to everybody. I don’t even know how one could have gone about enlightening the sleeping masses.

    I always remember the way Mick Jagger said it:

    “You can’t always get what you want.
    No, you can’t always get what you want.
    But if you try sometimes, well you might find,
    You get what you need”

    But people didn’t really hear him, did they?
    They just danced along and said, “Wow man, great band.”
    The Tao teaches the same law of physics, too.


    @kevin moore
    Thanks for the Chernobyl video, although it seems to be blocked now. It’s not what I would have expected at all, but it was fascinating to see everything thriving. It’s bizarre to see how humanity was more of a threat to nature than even the radiation poisoning was.

    Go figure.


    And again Guy, no hard feelings about the science thing; you’re one of the good ones for sure. :)

  • My respect for Guy is due to the fact that he has integrity that I believe he would have regardless of his chosen field, including science. Human beings want to make sacred cows, and being a scientist is no more holy than being a farmer or a teacher or a lawyer or an artist or a social worker, or anything else that people do. It may require more education, and typically it means the person is intellectually brighter than your local convenience store clerk, but beyond that being a scientist is no more a guarantee of virtue than anything else that people do. We couldn’t be where we are if not for all the creative irresponsibility of millions of chemists, engineers, nuclear scientists and nuclear weapons makers, etc., etc., scientists each and every one.

    The thing I respect most about Guy is that he realizes that real virtue transcends career or avocation. Guy’s courage in facing his humanity fully in this way, and genuinely being honest about and taking responsibility for everything about himself and his life is one of my most favorite things about him, along with how he connects all the information and provides a gifted biologist’s perspective of the situation. I’m pleased to hear him counter the criticism that he isn’t a climate scientist with the fact that climate scientists aren’t biologists, and they don’t just automatically understand what bio-climate collapse means for living organisms.