Kilroy Was Here

by Mike Sosebee, independent filmmaker

In time everything seems to runs it’s course, and the film Somewhere In New Mexico Before The End Of Time is approaching its conclusion. I ran an Indie-go-go campaign almost 2 years ago and people without a lot of resources stepped forward and were generous to a fault but that’s always been the case in my experience. There was one message that I’ve heard over and over again during the making of this film: “No-one wants to hear a story about the end of their world.”

They’re right of course. Denial is acceptable because “Everybody Knows.” But I see a civilization marching in stepwise fashion into oblivion and we seem powerless to even slow it down.

I put together this documentary in order to create a record of what was going on when we passed this way: Call it my “Kilroy Was Here,” moment. In the beginning I didn’t know Guy McPherson well. I know him well now and I find him to be a kind and decent man compelled against his best interests to tell a tale that no-one wants to hear. He is a Cassandra in the truest sense of the word and his story was worth telling.

But there are others like him and here I name Michael Ruppert. Mike has given up his health, well-being and whatever hope for financial security for the sake of telling the truth and he has woken more than a few of us up. Now it’s time to help out your brother.

Today Mike has put his welfare at the tender mercies of his public and that is the definition of “heroic.” We need Ruppert’s voice, which brings me back to the film. The film has been sold and delivered to 29 countries around the world and I am now down to the last 100 DVDs I intend on selling over the internet. After cost there will be $1,000 net that I have pledged to Michael Ruppert. I am sending him $100 today. I am not reprinting the disk and after whatever touring is done over the summer I will be closing down this project. I never intended for it to become a hobby-horse but after two years it certainly began to feel like one.

My knowledge of near-term human extinction, with which I agree, hasn’t led me to surrender to “hedonism” as Guy likes to say. Instead it’s awakened in me a responsibility to do what I can in my little part of the world with what time I have left.

I have committed to another project starting in the fall having to do with the Southern Nevada Water Authority’s (SNWA) wicked plan to steal water from the Great Basin Aquifer in northern Nevada to funnel it south to flush toilets and water golf courses in Las Vegas. SNWA borrowed Mulholland’s playbook in stealing water from the Owens Valley almost 100 years ago. Remember Chinatown? The consequences of the pipeline will be the destruction of the last pristine high desert ecosystem in North America and the indigenous cultures of the Shoshone/Paiute that have lived there durably for millennia. The SNWA Pipeline will be the largest single public project in human history. Like the Titanic, it will be the metaphor of our time.

A few lines from poet Dylan Thomas come to mind:

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Comments 103

  • I have limited budget for hedonism, but I do what I can.

  • OMG! I just got access to the NTE site. Most of the discussions are dominated by U, just like his website (dead since 2012).

    For example, one thread has 11 comments and 9 of them are U. So, he’s basically talking to himself. Just like on his blog. He would post something and then comment on it himself like 50 times with maybe one or two comments from other people.

    Seriously, I know I’m no perfect human being, in fact I would go so far as to say I am deeply flawed, but U is completely nuts. The sheer volume of stuff he writes each day is unbelievable. He must be one lonely SOB.

  • Yes, if one thing is clear it is that we “sapient” monkeys will do anything and everything to continue the illusion, though like fracking and the soon-to-be-arctic-ocean-oil-drilling-en-masse, these last few years, perhaps even decades of illusion (depending on the breaks) are probably doing collective damage worse than much of what has come before.

    It’s called “the Red Queen Syndrome”, as I am sure most everyone here has heard of it…and if you haven’t, well now you have something to look up.

    In a nutshell, the Red Queen runs faster and faster just to stay in place.

    By “stay in place”, this means keeping the illusion relative similar for the tiniest minority, mostly Western, of humanity, while the rest are locked belowdecks in the Titantic in Steerage. Such that, when TSHTF, the foolish sheep can be easily herded to FEMA Camps, and participate, as one prescient wag put it, “in lotteries for extra food and water in which a ‘ticket’ is purchased by dumping one wheelbarrowfull on on a hot nuclear reactor core.”

    Yep. It’ll be that or something very much like it.

    And the sheep will line up around the block to dump their wheelbarrowful, same as Sonderkommandos. Because humanity has not changed a whit in 10,000 years, only our technology level and energy usage, but both of those will be going down soon enough, when the last lies can no longer be maintained even to the sheepiest of sheep.

    This is still a long time in coming, because the human reserves of denial, normalcy bias and ability to be effected by social inhibition and the discount rate are LIMITLESS.

    Which begs the question, do sheep deserve to be slaughtered simply because they are sheep and the wolves want some mutton for dinner?

    We can debate philosophically whether this is so, but reality, as always, will intrude.

    Sheep may not deserve to be slaughtered, but they are, always have been, and always will be until the abomination that is humnaitry vanishes from the Earth.

    For the vast vast VAST majority on Earth, non-sociopaths readily and happily line up in regimented rows to do whatever they are told by the aristocratic sociopaths who rule them. For the rare few who refuse to believe the lies, bad things await. Every time, the same tricks and lies work on the sheep, updated only marginally and without much effort, for that is all that is required to keep the sheep in line.

    As The Milgrim Experiments and all of history conclude, the only thing needed to make sheep commit atrocities on other sheep is a lab coat and the barest sheen of authority.

    While I appreciate your work and spirit in the face of these ironclad realities that show no sign of budging even at this late date, there are only two posible outcomes in the Corpzi USA and probably everywhere else:

    1) Complete the path of the Corpzi State, which promises to absolutly dwarf the Nazis for amount of suffering brought on the most people (and maybe even worse atrocities, we won’t have long to wait now, maybe a decade or two at most, maybe much less)

    2) Yugoslavia-style internecine chaos or, if you prefer, the Medieval Chaos that came out of the Fall of the Roman Empire, except it won’t be nearly as fun gong through such a period “back down the path we came” as we had going through the Dark Ages forward with a light at the end of the tunnel.

    In either case, the faster the abomination of humanity goes extinct, the better. The better for the universe and certainly the better for any sentient life-forms we might have met and destroyed had we escaped our diseased world and given other worlds a bad case of humans.

    Once again, in spite of this, I still admire your persistence and desire to soldier on.

    Who knows, maybe enough will wake up and even the tiniest EFFECTIVE pushback again the Global Corpzi State migh be enough to spark something greater.

    But sadly, reality compels me to conclude that it’s about as likely as sheep or cattle in the chute rebelling and successfully preventing their own slaughter, escaping the slaughterhouse and living happily ever after in pristine green meadows.

    About as likely. Sorry and don’t blame the messenger for reality, please.

  • 2nd and last post today – see you on Monday.

    @ Maecenas

    You are exactly right and that’s why I’m just sitting here staring out the window. It’s the FEMA oven for me no matter what I do. My only defense is that I’m not in the engine room stoking the fire trying to make the train go faster and my damnation is I’m not doing anything to slow it down either.

    Some say we should all be doing everything we can to speed up collapse because our only chance is if we can make the collapse so crazy, so fast, so chaotic, that TPTB won’t be able to control it. My argument to that is “Okay, then what?, how are you going to effectively dismantle the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization?”

    I have no educated opinion on the evil nature of man, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the existance of supernatural beings, UFOs, or any of that stuff. I wake up, I eat, I go to bed. The rest is just details.

    Life is death. For nothing can live unless another thing dies.

    When you make out a menu,
    how do you price each dish?
    I charge a lot for anything black.
    Grapes, olives, blackcurants.
    People like to remind themselves of death,
    eating black food is like consuming death,
    like saying, “Death, I’m eating you.”
    Black truffles are the most expensive. And caviar.
    Death and birth.
    The end and the beginning.
    Don’t you think it’s appropriate
    that the most expensive items are black?

  • I read the comments on this site. The articles can be interesting but the comments can be (yes it can all get a bit tiring) profound clever and terrifying all at the same time. I confess I steal a lot of your words. One line I intend to plagiarize:

    “Life is death. For nothing can live unless another thing dies.”

    Thanks Pat! You’re in excellent company,

    I read a similar quote once by Dr. Albert Schweitzer:

    “Life is that which wants to live in the presence of that which wants to live.”

    I love olives BTW. Don’t approve of caviar. Never cared for truffles but I love chocolate and wine of course. I go from Red to White depending on how depressed I am. I mostly love being out of doors and hearing the quiet of a morning without the sound of human voices. I walk my dog at 5:30 in the am to beat the heat. Best part of the day and to spend it with a sentient being that doesn’t bother to tell you about his goals. love

  • Cowgirl Apocalypse Haiku #22

    Everybody knows
    the Kilroy-is-here-moment
    the Red Queen just stopped.

  • @ pat

    I doubt the wisdom of encouraging your obsession with me, pat, and I know you’re not the brightest person around, I mean having to have it explained to you that it is not necessary to PAY to join NTE, but you really ought to exercise your brain a bit more, before shouting your mouth off, you know, it would save making yourself look foolish.

    OMG! I just got access to the NTE site. Most of the discussions are dominated by U, just like his website (dead since 2012).

    It’s not dead. There were 50 visitors today.

    For example, one thread has 11 comments and 9 of them are U. So, he’s basically talking to himself. Just like on his blog. He would post something and then comment on it himself like 50 times with maybe one or two comments from other people.

    And this is the sort of thing that engages your time ? Of all the things in the Universe that might be worthy of attention ?

    Seriously, I know I’m no perfect human being, in fact I would go so far as to say I am deeply flawed, but U is completely nuts. The sheer volume of stuff he writes each day is unbelievable. He must be one lonely SOB.

    You know, this blog, my own blog, and NTE, are not the only channels through which I communicate. There are many others. Think about it, pat, with your limited brain. I know you’re just a working stiff on the way to the FEMA crematorium, but some people have a broader vision and a more interesting existence.

    If I come across something of interest, I cross post it to wherever I think people may find it interesting. That way it gets spread around to as many eyes as possible. People don’t need to comment. They can just read, or just copy and paste. Even YOU might be smart enough to figure that out. Some people call it networking. Given that MSM is censored, it’s a way of spreading significant info. Does that give you a clue ?

    And no, I’m not the slightest bit lonely, I love my solitude, it’s delicious, I revel in it, long may it last.

    Hope that helps.

  • @ Tom, thanks, I wasn’t sure if that one worked.

    Mike Sosebee says: I confess I steal a lot of your words. One line I intend to plagiarize:
    “Life is death. For nothing can live unless another thing dies.”

    Little Lower Than Angels

    We animals idealize
    Ourselves with our own lying eyes;
    Accept and forgive,
    For nothing can live
    Unless another thing dies.

    (Except plants.)

  • I also confess that I read and post on NTE daily. I have a personal need for dark places. After your eyes adjust to low-light everything becomes illuminated. I am also a lonely SOB who is tiresome to his friends and family. 2nd post see ya

  • @ Benjamin the Donkey

    (Except plants.)

    Profound wisdom indeed.

    Except….ion that proves the rule :-)

    In the Andes it uses its sharp spines to snare and trap sheep and other animals, which slowly starve to death. The animals then decay at the base of the plant, acting as a fertiliser.


    “[DELETED]” Plots to Kill Occupy Leaders “If Deemed Necessary”


    Would you be shocked to learn that the FBI apparently knew that some organization, perhaps even a law enforcement agency or private security outfit, had contingency plans to assassinate peaceful protestors in a major American city — and did nothing to intervene?

    Would you be surprised to learn that this intelligence comes not from a shadowy whistle-blower but from the FBI itself – specifically, from a document obtained from Houston FBI office last December, as part of a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request filed by the Washington, DC-based Partnership for Civil Justice Fund?

    To repeat: this comes from the FBI itself. The question, then, is: What did the FBI do about it?

    (read the rest if interested)

  • @U says “You know, this blog, my own blog, and NTE, are not the only channels through which I communicate. There are many others. Think about it, pat, with your limited brain.”


    “Mr I Abelman, Mongoloid Esq:

    We do not wish to be bothered in the future by such tedious complaints. Please confine your correspondence to orders only. We are a busy & dynamic organization whose mission needless effrontery & harassment can only hinder. If you molest us again, sir, may you feel the sting of the lash across your pitiful shoulders.” CoD, pg 100


    If you doomsters would just shake off your collective depression, you might actually enjoy watching the chess game proceed apace. I mean, it truly is a thing of beauty. Once amnesty passes, chain migration will ensure another 30-50m pouring into the USA.

    Already, long fallow Calif real estate projects are underway in anticipation of the additional demand. As most readers are perfectly aware, real estate is off the charts again, due mainly to hot Chinese Bennie bux flowing into what is perceived as a safe haven for the freshly printed counterfeit money. Of course, Silicon valley is no slouch either, getting the lion’s share of the surveillance funds, also generated from some keystrokes on a series of computers.

    Now, let’s noodle this through: let the old boomer generation die off (sooner than later with Ocare) and replace them with new citizens who have absolutely no concept of self-governance. They will be raised in an environment where the history of the 1st, 2nd, 4th & 5th will be simply erased from any kind of institutional memory.

    With a fully compliant and managed population via the full spectrum security state, you do see how easy it will be to introduce & enforce rationing, wage/price controls, travel restrictions, health care access & asset forfeiture?

    This is just the setup, however, for the final positioning once full blown resource depletion really begins to show its teeth. Could you imagine attempting to deal with this situation with the the kinds of people who frequent this site (and other progressive/libertarian forums) and protest this, that and the other thing? Yeah, right; thought so.

    You guys & gals are all highly intelligent. Step back and see the big picture, and realize that preparations are long underway.

  • @Tom “To repeat: this comes from the FBI itself.”

    Tom, it appears you are somewhat shocked by this revelation, thus the need to emphasize its importance.

    {Shaking my head slowly} If you are surprised by this, and your viewpoint is somewhat representative of those who frequent this and other lib/prog sites, then no wonder you folks are depressed. You’re so far away from resolution & acceptance, it’s a wonder if you’ll ever make it.

    Targeted assassinations is just par for the course. When are you going to wake up and realize the state is not your friend, does not represent your interests, and conspires with their corporate brethren to enslave & disenfranchise any/all who represent a threat to the status quo?

    Michael Hastings anyone? We’re so far down the pike, it’s almost a surprise they don’t whip away the false backing (of sunny meadows) to reveal the dungeon they’ve created for everyone and be done with it.

  • @Pat

    I sympathize and empathize with you.

    The speed of collapse doesn’t worry me. Either way, it’s coming and at this late date is already 99.9% certain (NTE itself is probably already 95% certain, maybe more). I must confess to a certain amont of impatience, not just to get on with it, but so I am assured to witness the final tragic-comic disgraceful plunge of the American Sheeple as they wholeheartedly throw themselves into whatever “Final Solutions” the sociopathic rulers decide upon.

    There is a wonderful scene in the old 70s Britsh miniseries “I, Claudius” in which the grotesque Emperor Tiberius decides upon the evil, mad Caligula as his successor with the words, “Rome deserves you.”

    Corpzi America deserves nothing less than what will be visited upon it by it’s own leaders, as well. Indivduals might not, but collectively…unquestionably so.

    There may be no “good guys”, and any/every human philosophy of living may have eventually led to this, but American Corpzism stands out among the “bad guys” in that we are the horse dragging the cart over the cliff, and we murder, ruin, or destroy anyone who gets in the way.

    In other words, who is in charge now that humanity is going down the tubes, hopefully for the last time? Corpzi America, or perhaps it is to say the internation bankers using intelligence agencies as murdering muscle, of which Corpzi America and Corpzi Israel are it’s primary instruments of domination and control.

    Finally, remember, it’s the FEMA ovens for you only if you decide it to be so. (probably, it is always possible that the Gestapo will “get the drop on you” and ship you there before you can properly bring things to a conclusion)

    @ Tom

    No, I would not be shocked. Nothing about Corpzi America shocks me anymore. Not it’s atrocities nor the feckless insouciance of the sheep who barely raise their heads from grass-munching before getting back to “Dancing With the Stars”.

    When it’s all said and done, I believe the American Sheeple will one day make the Good Germans who stood by for the Nazis look positively rebellious.

    We don’t have long to wait now. The next 9/11 and the resulting World War that kicks off the dieoff are coming soon. Obama doesn’t get to kick that off, though. Among the Aristocracy he’s little more than a placeholding houseboy, and as such will not be allowed to pull the trigger on these events and all the aristocratic joy that follows.

    So, these next four years, bad as they will be, are still among the “Last of the Good Old Days.”

    Based on how rapidly the American and Israeli Gesatpos dared to run the Boston Op (with it’s first Gestapo House-to-House and the first overt “prisoner shot while trying to escape”) just as soon as they could after Obama’s reinstallment as Emperor, I am guessing the next 9/11 is coming relatively sooner than later.

    So, no, the info about the FBI doesn’t shock me. Hell, if the Supermational Elite had decided to whack prominent Occupiers, I have no doubt the FBI would actively tank the investigation for them.

    Just like they did with the post-9/11 Anthrax Assassin. They pinned that one on a corpse, which is yet another way Corpzi America and Nazi Germany are so very similar.

  • speaking of plagiarism…

    Cowgirl Apocalypse #23

    Pauline says it best:
    “Dancing off the stage of life.”
    Now, join hands, children…

  • I know you’re not the brightest person around

    You don’t need to be an ornithologist to recognise a duck.

  • OMG! Haven’t read the comments in ages and nothing has changed! Why does it matter if one is talking to themselves, maybe it keeps them sane, and why does it matter how many comments someone gets on their blog, maybe they just enjoy writing! Who really cares?

    It’s no wonder we’re all going down and the sooner the better, we don’t deserve to live if we can’t find time to do anything but debate and argue.

    Thanks Mike again for your work and I’m thrilled to see the profit go to Michael Ruppert. We have Leonard Cohen’s Live in London DVD and watch it every other night, just kidding (that’s almost as bad as talking to yourself). Just watched an excellent DVD that I picked up from library titled, Brothers On The Line about the Reuther brothers now I know why we continue to resist. Leaders are not forgotten by those who listen, watch and learn from people’s actions, they speak much louder than words.

    Many are working their asses off trying to wake people up and get them to start “doing” something, even if it’s talking to themselves or writing a blog that no one comments on. We hardly ever get comments but doesn’t bother me at all, I love going back and reading my own history, at least it tells a story.

  • Furnace Creek, CA

    Sat June 29, 2013

    High: 128˚ Low: 98˚

    Now, as climate deteriorates, and this weather forecast is for say, Denver, how many people do you think will thrive in it?

    How long would temps like this need to finish off the population of metropolitan Denver?

    A week, a month?

    The power grid falters, no AC, no fans, eventually no water pressure, no refrigeration for FOOD.

    Is this ‘theoretical’?

    No, it’s a distinct possibility given the unraveling of the financial system which then precipitates a commercial collapse, meaning commerce stops, you know, like spare parts for broken infrastructure.

    I’m amazed by some people’s inability to grasp how fragile modern life is, you know in Reality.

    Would a 128˚ heat spell for a week or two in Denver produce the kind of brilliant response we saw from local, state and federal governments which we witnessed after hurricane Katrina in New Orleans?

    By now, it probably would be even Worse than Katrina. Government can’t find it’s own ass with both hands.

    There would just be a national news blackout as the city died and the remaining Sheeple’s attention span would just ‘move on’ to the next manufactured distraction to mesmerize the masses.

    I think talk of FEMA camps is silly.

    Duhmerika is already an open air prison. A Gulag Casino. The fish are the last to see the water.

    What is in place is a ‘cheap bastard’ corporate mafia mindset that is calling ‘the shots” now.

    They would steal the pennies off their dead mother’s eyes at her funeral and rationalize it as ‘rescuing stranded assets’.

    Why spend money to move anyone anywhere to do anything to them.

    Just cut off food and medical supplies and utilities and let the vast majority of any given the populace die In Situ

    And when climate change hands you gifts like massive heat waves and drought, it’s an even cheaper, more efficient, elegant solution.

    “The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.

    Dr Josef Mengele

  • Devil’s Armpit

    According to the forecasters (video link) warmer than normal is likely to continue through to September.

  • Re the people leaving comments point. Some people, e.g. Ozman, have bought all the psyops propaganda, and are so scared of ‘getting into trouble’ or being called ‘a terrorist’, that they won’t even click on DGR sites and freak at the mention of Ted K., as if the effing GCHQ and NSA and covert agencies are actually interested in people who obviously have trouble doing up their own shoe laces.

    I mean, they can track everything you did in the last ten years any time they want, if they do happen to take an interest in you. I refuse to be paranoid or to give an inch. I assert my right to live as a free man and to speak my mind to the whole world. But ‘they’ are trying to bring this freedom to an end.

    How much longer will it last ? I don’t know. We still have some free spaces where we can say whatever we want to say. That’s why I distribute stuff for other people to read. Think of it as a public service. I suggest others do the same. Don’t let them close down and censor the internet without a fight.

    In a frightening example of how the state is tightening its grip around the free Internet, it has emerged that You Tube is complying with thousands of requests from governments to censor and remove videos that show protests and other examples of citizens simply asserting their rights, while also deleting search terms by government mandate.

    The latest example is You Tube’s compliance with a request from the British government to censor footage of the British Constitution Group Lawful Rebellion protest, during which they attempted to civilly arrest Judge Michael Peake at Birkenhead county court.

    More at

  • ulvfugl says: Except….ion that proves the rule
    D’oh! You’re right! And the Venus flytrap. And Little Shop of Horrors. But some people still say that last one isn’t really real. :D

    Mike Sosebee says: “No-one wants to hear a story about the end of their world.”

    From the front of the doomer frontier,
    The problem becomes very clear:
    Trying to tell
    About doom’s a tough sell,
    Because nobody wants to hear.

  • Mike, could you provide some more info on Michael Ruppert? The info I found on the internet was, shall we say, colourful, and I’m not sure what to believe.

  • Gardengate said: “Why does it matter if one is talking to themselves, maybe it keeps them sane, and why does it matter how many comments someone gets on their blog, maybe they just enjoy writing! Who really cares?

    You are so right. What indeed does it matter if someone is talking to him/herself on a blog. What really matters is what the person is saying. How about addressing, in a logical fashion, what you disagree with instead of attacking the messenger. The attacks on Edward Snowden come to mind.

    I’m reminded of one poster’s repeated “I hate U.” That tells me nothing other than the complainer has nothing much to contribute.

  • Mike,

    great to hear you are helping out Mike Ruppert…

    errr …’Tracker of Truth’.

    Is a Blu-Ray DVD still available to by via internet?

    Best of wishes for the new project you have agreed to.

    And just in keeping with the song…

    IMO not everybody knows. But they could.


    I want to put in a plug for ulvfugl.

    Even though the guy can ably defend himself, he is a good attack dog for the data, and being practical on many issues. Somewhat condescending at times, he also shares stuff, which is 40% of what the internet is good for IMO.

    If one looks at the rubric of evidence a judge uses to assess orders to detain and the surveillance of individuals it is clear that reading the testaments of convicted terrorists is a bridge too far by my standards. But there you have it. Like you, I post for others, not to just blab. So I warn others of the risks. Simple. You do the paranoia if you wish, I just look at the facts.

    Your characterisation of me as paranoid is a little tiresome. As is your assertion to be free. You are not free. Your so called freedom in the ordinary sense is a consensual agreement in a social/cultural framework, and can be revoked at any time by a group decision, however that is arrived at. The freedom you describe is an illusion. Should the group decide to limit any aspect of your life, your communication, your movements, your finances, it can. You don’t have any freedom but that which the group enables you to have.

    I would have though you might have been aware of that. Unless you believe living in isolation legally enshrines your freedom. Ha Ha, Cuckoos are everywhere it seems, not just in Australia.

  • best of luck, mike, on your new project. it sounds like another worthy one.

    ‘Corpzi USA and probably everywhere else:

    1) Complete the path of the Corpzi State, which promises to absolutly dwarf the Nazis for amount of suffering brought on the most people’

    funny u should say that, maecenas (curious name). earlier today, aggravated by hearing yet another idiotic prominent corporate sponsored ‘journalist’ refer to the american DEA (drug enforcement agency, the federal law enforcement arm of ‘the war on (some) drugs’) as ‘experts’ on ‘drugs’, i was moved to write a little rough draft of an essay in which i try to compare america’s ‘drug problem’ with nazi germany’s ‘jewish problem’, and make the case that it may be only a few years before america, too, resorts to a ‘final solution’ that involves mass murder of demonized sheeple, in this case, ‘drug’ users. it kills 2 or 3 birds with one stone: reduce population by eliminating a group inclined to be a bit less sheep-like than most, while in the process instilling some terror in the remaining sheep by letting them know their likely fate should they too get out of line. seeing the thuggish dogmatic DEA called ‘experts’ on ‘drugs’ on american tv in 2013 would be very much like hearing the gestapo referred to as ‘experts’ on the ‘jewish problem’ on german radio 75 years ago, don’t u think?

  • Apology for Human Extinction

    There is no solace in seeing life drain away. Now that human extinction is certain, and soon, it is time to apologize to our ancestors – with whatever sincerity we can still muster. For we have cheapened, disrespected, spit on… the pains and sufferings endured to hand us this ultimate gift, the gift of life. It is time to apologize for our selfish disregard of those who now will never be born, never have their chance to witness beauty and feel love. We have stained life. It is no longer beautiful enough to suffer. We have made life unbearable. Made it impossible. We are guilty of poisoning it, and it is dying now rapidly, in slow motion agony. The time has come to apologize for trampling this precious gift, given through immeasurable painful endurance. We have murdered it, with a stupid sadistic grin. Our crime is unforgivable. It is time to wake up to the loud sorrow of our vile collective suicide. We are the worst of criminals, the most despicable, most ungrateful of all beings. We still have enough time to apologize… and for that we should rejoice and give thanks… but we will never be forgiven, never find solace. Somehow, along the way, we forgot how to love ourselves. We’ll never overcome all this self-hatred and despair… and we must apologize for that, too.

  • Good luck with your new project, Mike. I’m glad you’re helping out Mike Ruppert. He deserves it for what he’s done in the past, though I think he’s lost his way now.

  • Benjamin “For nothing can live
    Unless another thing dies.”

    Ulvufugl “@ Benjamin the Donkey

    (Except plants.)”
    Good exception example U of a plant that actually kills animals, and likewise BtD But in fact they are not exceptions as there are none. They just are more obvious. I believe that Benjamin’s line is correct as it stands.
    Actually every self replicator needs others to die so it can live. The resources of the planet, minerals, water, CO2, Oxygen are limited. Green plants are also limited by the space in which to trap sunlight. Ogardener pointed out that black walnut leaves poison the plants beneath the tree. Strangler figs usually kill the tree they use to get to the light. Ecological Succession of plants is all about different plants being progressively replaced by other plants In a simplistic rendering, the grasses have to die for the forests to live. The forests have to burn for the grasses to live. More complex than that but while the forests don’t eat the grasses, they eat from the soil the grasses build up and kill the grasses with shade so that they can have more sun.

    The competition for space, sun and resources goes on relentlessly. Some use cooperation with another species in order to compete for the resources, but at the base is always the competition. When communities of plants live in balance we think that they are not competing but its just that the mutual competition has resulted draw, and can be disrupted. As noted above a fire can give forest floor plants the opportunity to compete again, until they loose again.

  • B9K9: All those words are from the article. I just post this stuff to show how far down the road we are, incrementally further each day, week, month and year climate-wise, police-state-wise, with respect to disease, culture and economics. Believe me, I understand what’s happening. Civilization is a death-trap, both environmentally and from a socio-political standpoint. i’m just marking our place, but thanks for the response – I appreciate it.

    logspirit: wow, and I thought I despised humanity, civilization and the whole fucked up mess we’ve made . . . nice rant. There was a guy once who preached forgiveness, for whatever that’s worth, but his words became selling points for just another social movement of exclusion, punishment and war by those who didn’t understand and only sought power (the very people B9K9 is talking about). Now that’s a mess too with pedophile priests, secrecy, amassed wealth (while they preach “giving to the poor”), and this:

    Monsignor Nunzio Scarano held in Vatican bank inquiry

    A senior Italian cleric has been arrested in connection with an inquiry into a Vatican bank scandal over allegations of corruption and fraud.

    Monsignor Nunzio Scarano works in the Vatican’s financial administration. A secret service agent and a financial broker have also been arrested.

    They are suspected of trying to move 20m euros ($26m; £17m) illegally.

    Pope Francis ordered an unprecedented internal investigation into the bank’s affairs in the wake of recent scandals.
    (there’s more)

    tvt: Yep. Great comparison and I agree, though i’m not sure about the persecution though as about 50% of people in the US are on prescription drugs I read recently, and you can imagine how many of them are high-ranking officials (no pun intended, but it works) with high-pressure decisions to make and the fear and loathing they might feel (but of course if they’re psychopaths, none of that is necessary).

  • @tom, you know what happened to the last pope who looked into the Vatican Bank’s finances… “In God’s Name” by David Yallop.

    @kathyC, exactly. Been putting blood meal and bone meal in the garden. Everything feeds off something; nothing is ‘pure’.

    Speaking of which… @logspirit, I disagree. Maybe your ancestors deserve an apology, but mine don’t, some being of the very group mentioned by Tom: the Borgias, Cristoforo Colombo, etc.

  • Kathy C,

    What you say about the interrelationship of life and death reinforces a truth with which our culture is at war. It even pains me to read what you say, although I know it’s true.

    Stepping back a bit, we see the preoccupation with eternal youth, perpetually childishness, after WWII. People weren’t supposed to get old and die. There should be no ugliness or decay evident. Simultaneously, we had the creation of nuclear weapons, which, IMO, put the human experiment a millisecond away from its termination. Not facing death and decay in small, local ways results in universal death.

    Which is why I’m only interested in messiness. The great jazz giant, Thelonius Monk, wrote a tune entitled “Ugly Beauty”. We have ignored ugly beauty (like what you describe with olant ecology) at our cost.

  • Speak Softly: The fish are the last to see the water.

    And that, when they are pulled out of it. But then there were some venturesome fish that wandered into anoxic waters and held mouthfuls of air to hang around there a bit longer. Air sacs developed from the throats – lungfish. A few of the bolder lungfish ventured out onto land – and their great x (1.5•10^8) grandchildren comment here.

    Including Speak Softly & B9K9. Whatever scenario that comes to pass matters little: in line with Kathy Cassandra’s sage observation, all meat will sooner or later be dead meat, a phase in the grand cosmic cycles, from the unmanifest through manifesting to the unmanifest again.

    Before blaming the humans for anything, blame out lungfish predecessors for being too adventurous. And our primate ancestors for climbing down from the trees.

    Michael Ruppert – His From the Wilderness site (now defunct & archived) was a classic of the early days of the Awakening. Amongst its highlights were “Eating Fossil Fuels” by Dale Allen Pfeiffer, “Post Soviet Lessons for a Post-Industrial America”.

    Another classic was Jay Hanson’s “”, still up today. The “synopsis” there is well worth a read for the uninitiated.

    It was Dr. McPherson’s “The end of civilization and the extinction of humanity” talk transcript reposted on the great but now-defunct”Energy Bulletin” that first brought me to NBL.

  • logspirit says: we will never be forgiven

    Kathy Cassandra says: every self replicator needs others to die so it can live

    Killing is part of life’s dance—
    Unavoidable circumstance;
    Its bothersome features
    Are found in all creatures,
    And even in plants. Fucking plants.

  • What would we do without you, Benjamin? So appreciated.

  • Now that some of us have nearly a year behind us in contemplating NTE, here are a few questions for some of us to consider:

    If the current objective of NBL is advocating the awareness of NTE, is this the end in itself? Or do we imagine that the point of being aware, is to instigate a new objective for how to spend the time we have left?

    From a teleological perspective is there such a thing as an extrinsic finality and/or intrinsic finality concerning NTE? And if so, how are those finalities being determined by each of our individual circumstances?

    In other words, let’s take Badlands and Benjamin the Donkey as a primary example, given they pretty much represent two opposite poles of the age spectrum. They both clearly under NTE, neither of them are living in denial and both fully accept what is coming. However, they probably couldn’t be further apart as to how NTE will actually play out for them personally. Therefore, we might like to imagine we’re talking about the same thing, but are we?

    At this point in time, we are all pretty much contemplating an abstract concept, therefore as things exist today, our awareness will remain in an nascent abstract form.

    IMO, the question then arises, are some of us looking for more? Do some here imagine that a certain degree of “consensus” is even possible as how best to answer the question “now what”?

    And if so, how might we collectively steer the conversation towards that end?

  • @logspirit It is no longer beautiful enough to suffer.

    When I look around, and then I look at my children, with guilt and sadness that their world is fast degrading, I have to remind myself, this is their world. THIS IS THEIR WORLD. THIS. Not some past version that I/’we’ romanticize, grieve over, lament. They have no past reference which to compare things to.
    Last weekend we drove east, to attend a wedding which was held outdoors by the White River, on the outskirts of a dying town, in the middle of a dead and decaying forest. As the ceremonies were finishing and the wedding party was mingling, my son, age 5, climbed his first tree, which was completely rotten and falling apart. I was in complete rapture, gazing at a sun-dappled understory (I have not been in a forest with a real understory in forever), and out hopped a wild turkey chick, which I pointed out to my daughters, age 2 and 3, and which we quietly followed around until he found his way back. On the drive out, my son pointed and declared, “Mom, that is a mighty tree that died!”
    And boy, are those trees going fast! I have described the downfall of the trees west in the Black Hills, and the trees here in Rapid City, and the poor trees I look at every day in my yard/neighborhood. ‘Mr’. Badlands gets a little tired of all my proclamations, but could not help but join the chorus when we were at his childhood home where his dad still lives. Pretty much all coniferous trees of all ages and size are dead. I don’t know if they need heat or cold for the needles to brown, but 3 months ago, it was not apparent what the damage was going to be. Most shelter belts, mainly cottonwood, are harboring massive numbers of sick/dead trees, and some shelter belts are completely dead. And a new sight that we witnessed- sick trees that had partially leafed out and have already yellowed. It can’t all be from the drought, can it? I mean, South Dakota is known for drought/wet cycles, though this past one was more extreme. Anyway, it is heartbreaking and traumatic to see/experience.
    Driving through the prairies, I have seen nothing like it in my life. There must be twenty shades in between grass green and spring green. Every plant and flower was in full bloom, so many more than I ever knew existed in those expanses. I know what yucca plants are, but tall towers spiking up with bell-shaped flowers, I did not recognize. The color palette of a prairie come to life was shocking, intoxicating, a true gift. We stopped to watch a hillside alive with light-brown baby buffalo playing against the dark hide of their mamas, the wind rustling the grass and foxtails. These sights were nothing like the seeming lifeless expanses of dead grasses that have been most common recently.
    There is not really a way that I can describe the stark contrast of that prairie teeming with life and color, and the vast number of sick/dying/decaying trees. Some sort of reckoning.

    @Daniel re: “now what?” Will have to think on that one…

  • Benjamin, yes even in fucking plants. But it is worse. Death is not only inevitable, but is also the driver of evolution that created such diversity and us. We talk about selection in evolution, but that is short hand for the fact that some critters die before or without reproducing and some don’t. And if it is some novel trait that creates that advantage of one over the other then that trait is preserved. Or if it is chance the lucky traits are seen going forward and the unlucky ones not. Death before reproduction can start in the egg or the womb, can happen in the eagle’s nest where the stronger chick kicks out the weaker one, can happen in the lion’s pride where the new male kills the old one and all his kids, etc. Or it can be more massive, when changing environs kill all of a species (or many as in the end Permian) leaving the remaining ones to continue the dance of death and life.

    Without death evolution would never have happened.

    Consensus Daniel? The traits that make it possible for us to recognize NTE probably make it impossible for us to have any consensus. The question “now what” implies that there is an answer that is right or better, which implies that what we do matters on some larger scale. How can anything matter on a scale other than what matters to us as individuals in the short time we have left?

    My ex husband was proposing something to me and the kids once and I disagreed with him, agreeing with the kids. He told me he thought we should have consensus on the matter. Translation “you have to agree with me so we have a united front against the kids” But I didn’t agree with him. BTW I have also seen several of communities try to operate on consensus. Egads they take forever to make the simplest of decisions. Of course they don’t have necessity breathing down their necks, that always helps people make decisions quicker. Like what to do when you hear a tornado coming….

    People are working this out for themselves…how do I want to live or die in this foreshortened very dicey future. Some may choose DGR. Some may just live simply growing food while they can. ETC. Two good reads – The Last Policeman – planet has 6 mos before extinction by asteroid. The choices people make are varied. The hero just keeps on solving crimes as if it still mattered. It did to him. And -Everything Matters by Ron Currie – also an asteroid, longer time frame. The hero is the only one who knows for years – in the end he decides everything matters, but the small things not the big things.

    New podcast by Fairewinds re TVA and their nuclear plants
    at about 22:15 Gundersen and Lou Zell educate about the Nuclear Reactors that use ICE Containment. Fascinating – more stuff I didn’t know …I have learned a lot about nuclear power since Fukushima. None of it good. Just rewatched Silkwood last night. Nothing has changed since they killed Karen Siklwood.

  • I know, Daniel. How about The Gospel According to Guy McPherson?

  • @ Martin

    You don’t need to be an ornithologist to recognise a duck.

    Very true. But appearances can be deceptive. Sometimes a duck is not just a duck. There may be more to it than meets the eye. So the wise learn mastery of ornithology.

    But what then ? Beyond ornithology ? When NTE has broken all the stories ? That’s what Daniel is asking.

    The cuckoo told us on the previous thread that until we free ourselves from the bonds we will keep on reincarnating on this ‘death trap Earth’ again and again and again. Because that’s what his guru told him. And he believes his guru.

    So, where will the 9 billion reincarnate when NTE has arrived and the Earth is uninhabitable ? Some curious minds may wish to know.

    Climate chaos makes efforts at species conservation somewhat absurd. Species will be desperate to move, to try and find suitable areas where conditions are right for them.
    How are conservationist going to know or understand this ?

    It’s going to be tremendously complicated. Too complicated to understand.

    Conservation is immensely clumsy, slow and bureaucratic, involving endless committee meeting and fund raising decisions. Different groups come up with conflicting priorities. Some want to favour birds, some want to save the beetles, some want the area to look pretty, some want it to be accessible for handicapped people…

    In America, the Ruddy ducks need to be saved, in but Britain they need to be annihilated….

    Meanwhile, ducks, and everything else, are just going to move where they think they can survive. I think mostly, they will be unsuccessful. The ecology is collapsing, changing too fast for anything to adapt. Every year it’s going to be different.

    Perhaps the best policy would be non interference, because any action will be based on ignorance. ‘Nature knows best’. Foreign invasive species are going to arrive, native species are going to disappear. Humans are going to be upset about this, probably, usually, for sentimental rather than scientific reasons.

    But ‘Do nothing’ is never acceptable. Humans are always into ‘Something must be done !’

    So probably, just like geo-engineering, conservationists will screw things up even more by inflicting more management schemes and initiatives that are intended to do this or that, until we are managing the whole of the Earth’s surface, trying to stop it doing whatever it wants to do…. in a perpetual War against Nature with no foreseeable conclusion, which is what we are doing, which is what got us into this mess in the first place…

  • @BtD, one of your best yet!

    @Daniel, I think your questions are best answered by Kathy C’s past repeated truisms about facing our own individual deaths. Your questions apply just as well to any human at any point in their lives. Every day we might just as well ask ourselves “now what?”… it so happens that we generally don’t—we don’t live in the present like other animals, with that sort of immediacy, an immediacy that various crises on the horizon are going to call up. Sometimes some of us experience that kind of moment, when you might quit your job without another lined up, or you might take a stranger to bed, or play hooky from a college exam, ensuring that you flunk. You might get arrested at a protest. Anything where the future is far from given… but most people are uncomfortable with that kind of life and go to great pains to stick to a sensible plan. (As Guy says, we’ve been raised in captivity.) Badlands AK’s most recent post addresses the new “nowness” that we are going to have to embrace or at least reckon with.

    I just had a large cancerous mass removed from my abdomen, along with all my inner girly parts, my appendix, and various lymph nodes. I don’t know where the tipping point was in the past that begat this and I don’t know what the pathologist will say in the future about its containment (good; no further treatment) or lack thereof (bad; chemo and radiation). I have no control at this moment over either of these situations crucial to my existence; in fact it could be a genetic condition with which I was born, part of my basic essence. Death, of this sort or of any sort, is baked into the Life cake.

    You do what you need to do to stay alive, or you don’t. Any surplus energy you have beyond that you can use as you see fit, no different from before you conceived of NTE. It’s the old “before enlightenment / after enlightenment” idea: chop wood, carry water, no?

  • ulvfugl

    Your comment reminds me of a talk I went to about 6 years ago, given by a staff member of the Department of Conservation, celebrating the establishment of a marine park.

    I asked her how she felt, attmepting to conserve sea life in the face of acidification of the oceans, which will likely annihilate most life in the oceans and seas in a matter of decades.

    I pointed out that using fossil-fuel-powered boats to carry out conservation work added to the conservation problem.

    It was all to hard for her.

    12 years ago I was pointing out that fighting fires in Australia with helicopters was increasing the long term incidence of fires.

    Practically everyhing in this insane system is counter-productive.

    I complain about NPDC progressing from dysfunctional to non-functioning, but actually that IS progress.

    By the way, NZ probably has more introduced pests than any other comparable land mass; gorse, thistle, kikuyu, rabbits, deer, horses, stoats, possums (Aussie variety), blackbirds, varroa mite, industrial humans…..

  • @ Kathy C and Lidia

    You state:

    “The question “now what” implies that there is an answer that is right or better, which implies that what we do matters on some larger scale….”

    I don’t think the question “now what” implies any of that at all, at least not for me. It’s just an open ended question that several people here have already asked to a chorus of crickets.

    I put “consensus” in quotations for a reason, on one hand I completely agree with you that it’s highly unlikely, but then again consensus can be achieved in many ways, such as our mutually shared opinion about NTE. Many of us are in consensus that 9/11 was an inside job, and that when the grid goes down, nuclear containment pools spells the end of most of life on earth. We are in consensus in hoping Lidia overcomes here run in with cancer. Consensus is obviously a relative concept.

    Our understanding of NTE is evolving whether we know it or not. None of us are probably thinking the same way we were just a year ago. And it’s becoming quite clear that we are now repeating ourselves every time someone new to this space comes along and runs through a similar arousing gamut.

    So when you ask “How can anything matter on a scale other than what matters to us as individuals in the short time we have left?” That is exactly what I’m asking!

    If you’re retired and haven’t too many demands other than your garden, then NTE is fairly easy to reconcile, especially if you’re going to die of natural causes in the next couple of decades anyhow. But if you’re not, and you’re either young or middle aged, then NTE is basically a completely different reality than what is regularly being discussed here.

    Just off the top of my head I can think of a dozen pertinent questions that are not being dealt with, where instead, we are just rehashing the same stories over and over again.

    Why is that?

    Based on peoples negative reaction to what has been termed “navel gazing”, I am beginning to suspect that while we’ve intellectually wrapped our minds around NTE, we haven’t even begun to scratch at what it emotionally means to us beyond just the grieving process. (But there is no consensus on that either)

    Has the massive disparity of circumstances due to our differing ages been addressed? What if you live in the American Southwest, and you realize as Guy has that well before NTE arrives, there will be massive regional relocation. Is anyone thinking about quitting their job, or life for that matter? Anyone thinking about becoming a drug addict or a permanent mountaineer? Anyone thinking about selling everything they own and wondering around the planet until they can’t? What about the reality and option of suicide, has this been seriously debated? What is the appropriate age to talk to children about NTE? Has NTE destroyed anyone’s relationship or marriage yet?

    @ Lidia

    You state: “Your questions apply just as well to any human at any point in their lives. Every day we might just as well ask ourselves “now what?”.

    On this side of acceptance of NTE, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Virtually every decision we make is based on some future outcome; our entire culture in future oriented. Case in point, you chose to have surgery, I probably wouldn’t have based solely on my acceptance of NTE, in fact, I may have looked at it as a blessing in disguise.

    If you are in any position of having to make longer term decisions, then NTE completely alters your decision making process, from Dairy Man Dave deciding whether to stay in farming, or if or what school Jennifer Hartley should enroll her child, to whether or not Guy remains living in New Mexico. If you accept NTE, ergo accept we have something around a decade or so, to take advantage of the time we do have left, how can that not change every decision we make from here on out?

    Or maybe that’s just how I see it. Who knows, that’s the value of asking questions.

  • @Daniel, you’ve been talking a lot in the abstract. Are the “dozen pertinent questions” the ones about drugs and mountaineering, or are there others?

    I acknowledged the hypocrisy of this surgery, just as I assume you acknowledge the hypocrisy of not eating only food you have grown yourself, etc., taking nothing from Empire. I have two people dependent on me, and dying a painful death of septicemia and ovarian necrosis wasn’t on my calendar for July. I plainly said, we’ll try to survive, or not, leaving the options open. I’m using the surplus I fortunately have in order to survive today. If you want to spend a similar sum on mountaineering, go for it.

    My decision today doesn’t obviate a different choice tomorrow. When you come down to it (I believe I said this in the past) the only logical and coherent response to full NTE acceptance combined with complete empathy for other beings is to immediately commit suicide. I wasn’t URGING this, merely following things to their logical (“navel-gazing” logic, although I did not use that phrase earlier..) conclusion. Using a different sort of logic— yeast logic—most of us will try to live to see another day until we just can’t.

    Yes, your level of confidence in NTE will determine whether you choose to study fiber plants and weaving or to stock up on bolts of organic hemp. I thought that was obvious enough not to have to mention.

  • Daniel:
    I am beginning to suspect that while we’ve intellectually wrapped our minds around NTE, we haven’t even begun to scratch at what it emotionally means to us beyond just the grieving process.

    I can’t speak for the others, but my chauffeur gets it. Whether my master gets it is debatable. Hanging around NBL may invoke Josef Goebbels’ method of repetitive hammering it into my monkey-brain, which if done enough times, can be accepted by my lizard-brain. Appealing to emotions is a whole lot more effective in this regard than appeals to the intellect. While Kathy Cassandra does the first well, and U excels at the latter, both are good at both.

    Implicit in our voluntary actions is anticipation (intellectual – monkey brain) and expectation (emotional – lizard brain). The vociferousness of condemnation of others’ understanding (=intellectual function) or attitudes (=emotions/values) originates in the lizard brain. Psychopaths get their advantage (and disadvantages) by subduing their lizard brains. Sociopaths do so too, but are short on an intellectual grasp of societal skills.

    The size of the tumour suggests an endometrial origin. Cervical tumours of that size could likely infiltrate the pelvic wall (in which case a curative procedure would be a lot more problematic and difficult), and ovarian tumours would become widely disseminated in the peritoneal cavity. (Those are the three most common tumours of the region). If indeed it was endometrial, that has the best prognosis amongst the three. Wishing you best of luck in any case.

  • @Robin, it was an ovarian mucinous cancer, which to the naked eye was contained. Gotta wait on pathology of all the bits to know what’s really up. Just putting one foot in front of the other right now —hey, 12 laps around the floor! (ouch)

    P.S. to Daniel. I never, for myself, held out suicide as anything noble. Rather, what I would be driven to put of cowardice, i.e., the alternatives would have to be worse, as in the Greek dancers story.

  • @robin (sorry everyone for the extra posts). I really did not even take the time to Google mucinous tumors until now. I see that there are several flavors: a complex beastie. I only saw my surgeon for a minute or two in the recovery room. Today, I saw her colleague who just repeated: seemed contained, prognosis could be good but have to wait on path. What else are they going to say? They don’t want me despondent while I’m trying to get over the surgery, I assume. I’m really appalled at how much the patient is out of the loop. I’m the last to know anything.


    He gave up his car, learned to live on one-fourth the income he was used to and began pursuing a life he would describe in a 1980 book, “Wealth Addiction,” as “voluntary simplicity.”

    “It was not all pleasant…yet I hadn’t lost anything precious. I’d lost money. I’d lost security.”

    In interviews, Mr. Slater said life after 1971 was more adventure-filled, chaotic, emotionally satisfying and harrowing than he could have known when he decided to leave Brandeis. Which was why he was glad he did it.
    “The experience of losing everything and finding I was having a wonderful time,” he said, “opened me to experiences I otherwise would not have had. I would have protected myself from them if I had known.”

  • Daniel

    Why not fight NTE? How? Find a way, it could be your only chance, and the only chance of the life forms set to perish. What if you were the guy to come up with some ideas? And you just didn’t go there because you had accepted NTE and asked the non-sequester ‘What Next?’ to pass the time? It would be a fate accomplished, no?

    So I say fight if you can. I am. I have a plan. Risky, and never is it going to be assured before it is attempted, but it must be done.


    Oh dear!

    Now you stoop to not only name calling, which is so troll-like,(hummmm?), but you think I am childishly bleating Adi Da slogans about some stuff you think it all means.

    Grow up man!

    I understand you very well now.

    You claim to be questing to save a forest, but you cant look at other humans like me as having some personal sovereignty, while claiming such self governance as your own.

    I can only figure you are a paid up troll, or you just don’t care about people.

    So combative it is obvious to any passing observer you are a boxer at heart, and can only interface ‘others’ in a competitive manner. Cooperative means, cooperative impulses are something you seem to assess as weak, and worthy of scorn.

    You are not an island man, and you are not alone.

    Best leave it there.


    Looks like ulvfugl was a troll all along. Or some pretty hefty Alan Turing Deep Blue computer program from the NSA, just twiddling away the down time here on NBL.

    Why would ulvfugl have a go at a God Man? Probably pushed too many buttons, with ‘pride’ being the largest of them all.

    Just out of interest who could ulvfugl work for, which agency?


    ulvfugl = troll


    ulvfugl = Turing Test computer neural net processor program.

    I suggest some tweaking on your ‘evaluative’ function(Feeling), also some problem there too with the ‘compassion’ chip.

  • @ Ozman

    I didn’t respond to your earlier comments, because both they and those in the previous thread seem just so much nonsense, imo, so confused, just a waste of time. But as you persist in trying to provoke me…

    Why not fight NTE? How? Find a way, it could be your only chance, and the only chance of the life forms set to perish. What if you were the guy to come up with some ideas? And you just didn’t go there because you had accepted NTE and asked the non-sequester ‘What Next?’ to pass the time? It would be a fate accomplished, no?

    So I say fight if you can. I am. I have a plan. Risky, and never is it going to be assured before it is attempted, but it must be done.

    Ozman. You’ve been here for years, listening to Guy, reading Daniel’s comments, reading my comments, reading the discussions re DGR, possibly even reading the science re the climate. And now all of a sudden, you conclude it is time to fight ? And you have a risky plan ? And you expect US to take you seriously ? After reading all your long garbled posts about lordie knows what ?

    Oh well. Good luck with your ‘plan’.

    Now you stoop to not only name calling, which is so troll-like,(hummmm?), but you think I am childishly bleating Adi Da slogans about some stuff you think it all means. Grow up man! I understand you very well now.

    Okay, Ozman, tell me please, where are the nine billion going to be reincarnated ?

    I call you a cuckoo, living in cloud cuckoo land, as a rather gentle way of suggesting that you are detached from empirical reality, occupying a dreamy fanciful realm where your imagination prevails.

    I suggest it is your way to deny facing the harsh bitter future where billions die from starvation, disease, radiation, violence, and horror, and to deny our powerlessness to avoid this fate, which we usually refer to here as NTE. Not just the humans but most other living thing too.

    Btw, I wish you’d quite proselytising your goddam guru. You’re like Jehovah’s Witnesses at the door trying to force me to read their leaflets, only worse, you try to kick the door in to force me to read your effing Adi Da. I know it already, ok ? Seems you don’t even know it yourself.

    Learn your OWN religion FIRST before accusing me of lacking grace.
    “TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT” as you told me on the previous thread, is an ultimatum, a declaration of war. Nobody invited you, or asked you to evangealise, or enquired about your damn religion, did they, so stop trying to force it onto people. Please.

    Instead of smearing and slandering me, stop being such a foolish effing egotistical hypocrite, do what your supreme guru told you.

    @ Daniel

    Or maybe that’s just how I see it. Who knows, that’s the value of asking questions.

    Yes. Great way of focussing amidst all the distractions.

  • Daniel, since this is an open blog, people will continually join in who are at very different places than old timers. Since this is an unmoderated blog people will talk about what they want to talk about regardless of any wish of others to stick to certain subjects. Other than no insults rule (currently being ignored at present) and two posts a day (which prevented domination by a few = and I was guilty myself in the past of over frequent posting) there are no rules. So while you can ask for the conversation to go in a certain direction, you will be wasting your time.

    What you want would best be talked about on a blog that limits who can post and what they can post. You could set up such a blog. You can invite everyone, then eliminate those who don’t stay on topic or the posts that aren’t on topic.

    Lidia, thanks again for sharing. I was wondering how your journey was going. Last time I saw you post I think you believed you had just a few months. Sharing your thoughts and feelings as you face possible death is good for people to hear. NTE still seems forever away, yet any one of us could find out we had a terminal disease tomorrow. If you beat this thing you can be around watch the fireworks at the end. Whether that is good or bad will depend on how things play out I suppose. Most importantly you can share your journey with the rest of us and perhaps your thoughts and feelings will help others reconcile to the fact that we are mortals. On a personal level I was very very happy to see your posts!

  • Hah! Well, I’m still here and I see U and OzMan bickering like old times. Kind of gives me a warm fuzzy feeling of nostalgia. :-)

    No more hospital reports until I get my final pathology info. Back to your regularly-scheduled doom! Thanks for sticking around, my friends, and helping me pass the time.

    @Ripley, a local (to me) author has been writing on similar themes. I made sandals just like the ones shown here, just this past weekend, with Nate!

  • @kathy c, no I really didn’t know one way or the other and still don’t. Won’t for another week or two. No hope, no fear. If it’s bad news I don’t particularly want to go through chemo/radiation just to buy a couple of months or years; there would have to be a significant gain from treatment. All I would want is enough time pain-free to wrap up my affairs calmly, and then maybe retire to a sort of secular monastery for a while if I can find such a place. My DH has always talked about “going to the Shao-Lin monastery” or “setting up a Shao-Lin monastery”, for years, not just since this issue cropped up last month. It’s been a kind of semi-jokey touchstone or code word between us for escape—it doesn’t have much to do with the real physical rigors or religious discipline of an actual Shaolin monastery… I related it to your hospice stories, and my feeling that the world is on hospice, or should be. If I end up with the time and energy, I would like to look into setting up a hospice-style non-denominational retreat. I don’t want to say “like Four Corners” ’cause. I don’t know what 4C is like. No set programs, just a peaceful minimalist place to get away from the madness.

    Speaking of madness, they are here to weigh me at 6:20 am. They never seem to notice that I have four tubes and a catheter and at least two or three are caught up in something. They just blunder about tugging on things that are best not tugged on and knocking the catheter in particular, even when I ask them to please be careful. Yesterday two different nurses spilled my water all over my table and ruined one of my books. I know this is just their place of work, but I was surprised at how rare it seems to find a nurse sensitive to people’s actual physical presence and bodily disposition, if you will. In just two days I have had to deal with 8-10 different nurses or more, plus the vampire blood guy who comes in at 3:45am. They all have different agendas and opinions about what they want done and how to do it. Only one out of the ten has been a considerate, healing presence. Too bad I won’t see him again (another thing that is incomprehensible are the shift rotations). Peter, you have a gift that is all too rare. The others haven’t been interested in my honest answers to their routine questions, they just go through the motions and/ or get defensive. I never initiate any issue, nor have I made what I’d consider to be a stink over anything except if you were to consider not backing down immediately over the vitals alarm CAtch-22: if I’m supposed to be taking the meds to help me sleep, but the meds cause my body to be constantly setting off loud alarms, then I’m not able to get any sleep, am I? Just gently insisting on an acknowledgement that this was sub-optimal, coupled with my desire for my catheter to not be knocked around brusquely, has branded me a sort of troublemaker!

  • Joe Versus The Volcano wasn’t a very good movie, but the last line in it has resonated with me…..”Away from the things of man.”

    As much as is possible in today’s world, that is where I’d like to be at the end of the world.

    Seeking a Friend for the End of the World, was a good movie and the end in that is what I hope for. That death is a really good one! We aren’t likely to have an asteroid, so it will have to be engineered, but that’s the standard to shoot for.

    Lydia, I hope you get out of that hospital soon! Amazing, isn’t it, that the *patient* is treated as sort of a piece of meat instead of a partner. Western medicine is fucked up. I’ve had to do some time in wards for various lady things but always had pretty good nursing care. Doctors, well, that’s another whole thing! As an unbeliever, can’t call on supernatural powers for you, but still…thinking about you and rooting for you.

  • ulvfugl

    So much baloney.

    The nine billion are only a very small fraction of reincarnating beings at any moment. The consequences of the catastrophic climate change is obvious, the beings, human and otherwise, will not be able to reincarnate, so the revolving door will slow right down. To nothing for humans if we go out completely.

    Thanks for the good luck with my plan.

    I am sorry if you feel I provoked you.

    And if you say you know it, the Adi Da routine, then why call ‘it’, ADIDAM a religion, because it aint. But you know that right?

    I presume we are on the same page when I say neither you nor I want the NTE events to come about.

    If I explained to you my plan, not only would you think I was nuts, which you already do, you would not believe it possible. Not many would, so it is of no real purpose to TALK about it, much more here, and you are going to have to trust me when I say it is a very practical plan. It has taken a lot of work to get to the point where I am reasonably confident it will have a chance of accomplishing the objective. And it can probably happen at a certain time, in a certain place, at least to start with.

    I will let all here now when it is ‘on’.

    Can’t say more.

    Anyhow, I will try to be less kooky, but only up to a point.

    I hope we can one day have that beer!

    You write:
    “I call you a cuckoo, living in cloud cuckoo land, as a rather gentle way of suggesting that you are detached from empirical reality, occupying a dreamy fanciful realm where your imagination prevails.”

    You see this is the problem, your statement is fine if you can define what empirical reality is, actually consists of.

    I suggest it is just you illusion, and the delusion of Scientist priests who ‘believe’ their own story of subatomic whatchamythingets. I say that as someone who has more than a passing ‘foxtel’ understanding of physics and astronomy and biology, all of which I studied at university. What I found there were deluded specialists who could only master a tiny discipline, and not see how absurd is their woefully incomplete ideas about this said ’empirical reality’.

    Many of the terrestrial conditions you point to are just conditions, and exist somehow devoid of any science model we might use to understand them by. But that is just the thing, we use some models which are just mental reckoning, and nowhere near the ‘truth’.

    Your view on ’empirical reality’ is just as plausible, possible and cool as mine. I just happen to understand consciousness has a fundamental role in life and the dynamics that ‘create’ ’empirical reality’.

    We differ in views, so why call me a cuckoo, just because I pose a different way to all this? I don’t say you are crazy, I just say I don’t agree with that version/model of reality.

    As with the change you point out. I don’t agree NTE is an absolute certainty, but I do agree it is not looking much better. I have my reasons, but let that be for now.

    I only recently came to the view there was a way to avoid or mitigate the whole shebang, and that was not an easy thing to come to, but I struggled with finding a way, for many, many days and nights, many mouths, and came up with one. I have changed my life during the last several years, and that change is not just in circumstances, it is actual living differently. So I have been ‘practicing’ what I am talking, just not to everyone’s liking.

    So I feel I have not changed my view, just change what I feel can be done. And also how it may be achieved. It will take a lot of people to achieve the goal, so I need to get that started, and I am.

    I will share when ready to.


    It sounds like the hospital has become a ‘machine’. Sorry to hear of your distress, but if you can look the health professionals in they eyes, they might emerge as humans with feelings, and ‘treat’ you accordingly.

    I will send healing feelings.

  • ‘Greenwald on ‘coming’ leak: NSA can obtain one billion cell phone calls a day, store them and listen’

    “June 30, 2013

    The NSA has a “brand new” technology that enables one billion cell phone calls a day to be redirected into its data hoards and stored, according to the Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald, who said that a new leak of Snowden’s documents was ‘coming soon.’

    Calling it part of a “globalized system to destroy all privacy,” and the enduring creation of a climate of fear, Greenwald outlined the capabilities of the NSA to store every single call while having “the capability to listen to them at any time,” while speaking via Skype to the Socialism Conference in Chicago, on Friday.

    Greenwald was the first journalist to leak Snowden’s documents, having travelled to Hong Kong to review them prior to exposure.

    “What we’re really talking about here is a globalized system that prevents any form of electronic communication from taking place without its being stored and monitored by the National Security Agency,” he said.

    While he underlined that the NSA are not necessarily listening in on the full billion calls, he pointed out their capability to do so and the lack of accountability with “virtually no safeguards” which the NSA were being held to.

    The Guardian journalist made hints that he was sitting on further details of the NSA’s billion-call backlog, which he’d keep under wraps until the documents full publication, which he said was “coming soon.”

    He additionally suggested future exposures to come from Snowden, while lauding the sheer risk the whistleblower took in revealing the NSA’s covert surveillance program……

    “Climate of Fear”

    It was Snowden’s exposure of the documents while operating in a highly surveilled environment that Greenwald was particularly complimentary about, citing an intensifying “climate of fear” being pushed on people who may be hazardous to the government.

    “One of the things that has been most disturbing over the past three to four years has been this climate of fear that has emerged in exactly the circles that are supposed to challenge the government…the real investigative journalists who are at these outlets who do real reporting are petrified of the US government now. Their sources are beyond petrified,” he commented.

    He called Friday’s scandal over the US army’s blocking of the Guardian website a prize of “a significant level above” a Pulitzer of a Peabody, pointing out the seeming contradiction that soldiers fighting for the country were considered mature and responsible enough to put their lives on the line, but clearly weren’t ‘mature’ enough to be exposed to the same information that the rest of the world was accessing.

    “If you talk to anybody in journalism or in the government, they are petrified of even moving. It has been impossible to get anyone inside the government to call us back,” said Greenwald, throwing some thought on the possible reasoning behind people contacting the press regarding the actions of government.

    “If you look at who really hates Bradley Manning or who has expressed the most contempt about Wikileaks or who has led the chorus in demonizing Edward Snowden, it is those very people in the media who pretend to want transparency because transparency against political power is exactly what they don’t want,” he opined.

    Greenwald finished by pointing out the increasing reluctance for people in government to even communicate with journalists, while highlighting the usage of the mass surveillance program to keep an eye on both dissident groups and Muslim communities.

    “There’s a climate of fear in exactly those factions that are most intended to put a check on those in power and that has been by design,” Greenwald stated, saying that Snowden was a prime example that people could stand up to the government, and that there was no need to be afraid of publishing “whatever it is we think should be published in the public good.””

    I’m guessing all those super computer chips grown in zero ‘g’ on the Shuttle or International Space Station have been put to good use on all the data storage projects.

    The world needed a space program why?

  • This is my first blog post, ever. I happened upon NBL a week ago and have spent most of my spare time since then right here. Somewhere along the line I read a post from another newbe saying that finding this site was like ‘coming home’. Well it’s like that for me too. I can hardly believe my luck at finding so many like-minded people and to find you so rational and unafraid to speak the truth. I honor you all and Dr. Guy, and am proud to be associated with you, even in this limited way. It’s been a long and lonely road, carrying the knowledge of NTE for years and finding almost no outlet for my feelings on the subject.
    Personally, I don’t give a flying fractoid about my own death, I hope I won’t suffer much, but I would gladly die right now if it could mean the end of the suffering people cause. When I take the time to meditate on the suffering, worldwide, with all the greed and violence, disease and starvation taken into account, I say, “ENOUGH!” And though it destroys me to think that my kids and grandson are doomed, the end can’t come soon enough. I am unable emotionally to tell them about what’s coming. They wouldn’t believe me and why not let them continue in their goofy but happy illusions for awhile longer? I love them, and that’s that. But, our time is about over and good riddence to a dismal failure!



    Long-time participants on NBL. They have made peace with extinction and seek a supportive online community with a variety of approaches toward end times. This is the hardest mental adjustment they have ever made, and having made it, they do not welcome people giving pep talks on hope–false hope (or hopium) in their opinion. They have studied and thought hard concerning NTE, and are entirely convinced that it is coming soon, irrevocably and horrific.


    They are newer to NBL. They question the science of collapse and the inevitability thereof. For them, Guy being mistaken on the science is a probable outcome. But they are open to having Guy’s findings confirmed by other scientists.


    They agree with the science of collapse, but see collapse as being the result of civilization-derived ideas that give the illusion of reality. They see reality as not being strictly objective and measurable, but being as much about the observer of that reality as anything else. The trap of industrial civilization imprisons all thought that takes its premises of reality as a given. This they believe.

    The climate skeptic comprise a very small minority, while the “inner core” can range in views from total “acceptance” and radical unconcern for mitigation to views that occasionally cast around for mitigation as a minor element of their communication. U (who would be inner core), apparently, is sufficiently concerned about mitigation to decry too much dependence on necessarily over-simple human interventions to avoid collapse.



    – Just think of nature you control as being your family. That helps to grow empathy, which in turn will hint as to what nature needs from you.

    – Prior to perusing NBL, I was gung ho for planting trees on a massive scale to provide transpiration, micro-climate cooling and CO2 sequestration. But I’m less gung ho now. Although I belong in category 3 from above, something from the inner core has already seeped in. I think U and others might agree that human meddling of any kind is only likely to make things worse. I attribute that to the fact that we are divorced from nature as a result of civilizational conditioning. And we are as yet incapable of not viewing nature through the lens of civilization. Maybe we shouldn’t so much try to help as try not to harm. The more we can chill and just give nature (including people doing “positive” things) a time in the driver’s seat, the better. I do not propose to do things that are not effortless, and recommend that behavior to others. Nature is going to be wild, irregular and messy, and it might help if we learn to love that..

    – We can’t stop the feverish and deadly activities of civilization, but we can stop energizing them to the extent feasible.

    – We can’t as individuals save the planet. But, as collapse escalates, people all over might be constrained to pitch in and push. If they don’t, they don’t, and that will be all she wrote.

    – I respect horror-is-inevitable scenario of B9K9 and others. I just see it as competing, and in a race for time, with more benign social trends and prospects. For instance, it seems clear that civilization has been driven by men. History is nor Herstory. Rape and abuse of the planet seems consistent with male behavior towards women. Maybe half the women in the world have been raped or abused by men. While all of us face the similar fates, it is women who would be on the front line of victimhood in a B9K9 scenario. Are efforts toward female resistance to collapse futile? A Billion Rising? Pointless?

    Madeline Albright: “The most famous thing I ever said was ‘There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other.'”



    I’m glad you’re still with us. We await with you the prognosis.

    I was impressed that you were already walking around. I’m from an old tradition that tended to undervalue movement (use it or lose it human requirement).

    I was going to share with you my hospital experiences, but found that the experience you recounted today was 100% exACTly the same as mine. For the very same reasons, I too fit into the “troublemaker” category. You appear to be handling it as well as any sane human could be expected to.

    The “program” is to make us feel powerless. But I found a way to feel powerful in hospital. They supply you with more swabs and pads and wipes and bullshit than anyone can enumerate. So I took it upon myself to start wiping down the “pedestal” (thing the tubes go on) with some of the cleaning stuff supplied. I’d get into the nooks and crannies of the shiny metal pole. I’d wipe the tubes. Eventually, I even started to wipe the walls down. Those were my Zen moments. Staff were unaware and probably defenseless regarding this totally inconsistent and unreasonable behavior. It’ a bit like practicing random acts of kindness, but it was free. I don’t think it makes sense to act reasonably in an unreasonable world.

  • Kirk, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I found NBL about 3 years ago I think and yes it felt like coming home.

    you wrote When I take the time to meditate on the suffering, worldwide, with all the greed and violence, disease and starvation taken into account, I say, “ENOUGH!” And though it destroys me to think that my kids and grandson are doomed, the end can’t come soon enough.

    YES. When we become extinct, no more people will suffer what half the population of planet earth now suffer, largely because they are our hidden slaves, holding up our lifestyle. 350,000 people are born every day, for an increase of 200,000 humans every day, 1 million every week. Each day sooner it happens means less will have to die on the road to extinction.

    Meanwhile, the Arctic is suffering and may go ice free this summer.
    Above image, (see the link) edited from Naval Research Laboratory, shows that a large area has developed at the center of the Arctic Ocean with very thin ice, at some places down to virtually zero, i.e. open water.

    This development is to a large extent caused by persistent cyclonic activity in the Arctic. The Arctic is warming up faster than anywhere else, and this is reducing the temperature difference between the Arctic and lower latitudes. As a result, the polar vortex and jet stream get distorted, resulting in extreme weather. This is graphically illustrated by the animation below, from the California Regional Weather Server.(see the link)

    An ice free Arctic enters us into unknown territory but very likely it will result in a dramatic increase of chaotic weather. Looks like an interesting year ahead.

  • Thanks, Kathy! It’s been said,”DRILL BABY DRILL!” I say, “VENT METHANE VENT!” I agree, we have made the poor and the weak of the world our hidden slaves. But to me, our crime is even worse then slavery. We have been cannibals! What’s the difference between taking away what someone else needs to survive in order to satisfy our frantic desires and actually devouring their flesh? In my opinion, nothing. We have even gobbled up our own children!

    Many find glory in the tragically twisted farce called human history. Silly monkeys on a high horse, taking themselves soooo seriously. I just have to laugh!

  • Kirk Hamilton, welcome and thank you for that song (I am going to steal it for my next blog post at Wit’s End! – which will go something like this if I ever finish it):

    I always think it’s kind of funny when people portray those who accept NTE as merely members in another cult follwing a long line of mistaken doomsayers, when it seems to me that the Malthusian doomsayers have always been correct, and erred only in their timeframe (for various reasons). Because you don’t have to be an expert in anything – not climate science or evolutionary biology or ecology – to gaze dispassionately upon the constant trajectory of human population and resource exploitation throughout earliest prehistory and know that it is simply impossible for it to continue indefinitely. It was merely a matter of a few tens of thousands of years – a blip in the geologic and evolutionary record – for it to go global. And yet so very, very few – even among the most jaded atheists – ever venture near that simple and obvious observation.

    What is even more amusing (once enlightenment occurs and questions like – WHY are we being so stupid? arise) are the constant gyrations of even the doomsayers to find some way to infuse our failing experiment as the dominent species on earth as still possessing some meaning or purpose or mitigating factor. Another facet of denial is in primarily blaming it all on an externalized “culture” – the advent of agriculture or the structure of the industrialized corporate economy, or brainwashing through modern media.

    Scientists like Hanson who should know about the inevitability of mass extinctions based on the paleoclimactic record; Fred Pearce who wrote “With Speed and Violence” and then began to waffle; prominent authors like Monbiot who has lately made a ridiculous foray into rewilding; Allan Savory’s absurd grazing plan; Lord Lovelock’s emeritus recanting; the absurd proposals to explore space colonization by celebrities like Branson and Cameron; the Arctic Methane Group’s geoengineering; academics who continue to fly proclaiming that “more research is needed”; the desperate antics of leaders of the Green organizations to “reframe” the message – are just a few of countless examples of prominent figures and experts who peer into the abyss, shudder, and fall back on fiction to soothe their terror. It’s no wonder that ordinary citizens, even those who are well-educated, won’t pause to even take a peak.

    Ever since I started following the convering catastrophes and the diverse groups who squabble with each other about all aspects of peak oil, overpopulation, habitat destruction, biodiversity loss, climate change and ocean acidification not to say economic, social, gender and racial injustice – I have wondered why they don’t cooperate and instead allow the worst sociopaths to steer this Titanic into an iceburg.

    Mostly as a result of many fruitless conversations with people who, no matter how realistic they are about the abundant evidence of imminent collapse, still cannot accept the inevitability of that outcome due to our innate and (for all intents and purposes) immutable, genetically determined behavior to overshoot and then quarrel, I have come to the conclusion that the urge to deny both individual and even more so, our species’ mortality – to believe in deities, spirits, a higher power, reincarnation, the essential goodness of humans, ethical or moral progress, some profound mystical affinity with the essence of life – call it what you will – is also genetically programmed in our species.

    No matter how factually such myths are rebutted, almost all people finally ameliorate unwelcome information by saying something like “Well, I just don’t want to believe that!” Despite overwhelming proof that hunter-gatherers typically existed neither peacefully nor sustainably, in fact warred constantly between tribes, lived in fear of raids and generally helped themselves to the flora and fauna of Nature’s bounty until it was extirpated, most people refuse to accept the destruction of their cherished, romantic version of human nature. I suppose it is the final insult to acknowledge that humans are driven by status-seeking, ruthless competition, and the very animal (natural, imagine that!) urge to reproduce…and the rest is window dressing. Very fancy, attractive, sometimes sublime window dressing, but an artful disguise nonetheless.

    Those rare (usually lonely!) individuals who don’t subscribe to the prevailing magic of their current tribal religion are simply mutants of one sort or another, and/or they had some sort of jarring life experience that blasted the rose-colored glasses away permanently.

    What a terribly unpopular notion that is – so imagine my joy when I started to read (via a recommendation from a member of Jay Hanson’s America 2.0) a book titled:

    Denial: Self-Deception, False Beliefs, and the Origins of the Human Mind

    For those who genuinely want to know WHY we are the way we are, and what that means for our future, I highly recommend it. It’s not recommended for anyone though who would rather not know that 1. It’s too late and 2. It’s always been too late.

    It’s possible to read it online for free.

  • Great paper, Gail! I know I’m only supposed to post twice on a thread but exposure to real intelligence is the highest form of entertainment for me and I wanted to compliment you for a job well done.

  • @Kathy Cassandra

    Thank you for your reasoned response to Daniel. I visit this site a few times per month to obtain information/links. It is not only a “very special kind of sanctuary” for NTE believers, as Daniel described it, but a public forum in which to exchange ideas. Guy has arranged it to be a free-flowing stream of information, unlike Orlov and Greer who, as Lidia says, are cowards.

    I didn’t appreciate what was happening on the Savanna thread concerning certain efforts by Daniel, pat, and wildwoman to discipline…um, I mean counsel…Artleads on the correct way to proceed on this so-called sacred site. I wrote a very quick post to wildwoman to counteract such censorious behavior. I don’t like people’s taking it upon themselves (this is Guy’s website, folks) to make a well-meaning searcher of knowledge feel unwelcome. It’s utter, cruel nonsense.

    I find my own sanctuary with face-to-face interaction with family and friends, with animals and soil. It’s called “relationships.” Even though the society I keep does not agree with all my beliefs, my loved ones listen to me anyway with no denigration.

    I suggest that some of you who are overly reliant on this version of “holy sanctuary for believers only” (my quote) should pull away from the sterile computer screen, look yourselves in the mirror, and find your buried goodwill.


    You are a most elegant writer and thinker, probably the best on this site, in my opinion. I wish you well, dear lady.

  • Thanks Kirk, I’m glad I didn’t offend with such a long reply.

    One of the authors of that book has a brief interview here:

    which is a short and concise description, most interesting!

    Dave F, I’m not so sure we should censor the censors, by the way, as long as it is an honest statement of opinion and not name-calling or insulting (I realize that does sometimes occur despite Guy’s rules).

    To accuse people of making others “unwelcome”, of being “cruel”, of having “buried goodwill”, of implying they lack “relationships” (as though they are anti-social) and introspection (“look in the mirror”), for instance, seems personally denigrating, exactly the opposite of what you say you want to see occur.

    I would like to know which ideas were expressed by the so-called “discipliners” that you label as “utter, cruel nonsence” – without the attacks. Can’t you discuss the substance?

  • ‘What about the reality and option of suicide, has this been seriously debated? What is the appropriate age to talk to children about NTE? Has NTE destroyed anyone’s relationship or marriage yet?’ -daniel

    i wrote a very short essay titled ‘suicide’:


    i’ve been thinking for some time of writing about how knowledge/awareness of nte (and many related matters that tend to make one quite cynical and despairing) does enormously complicate, make much more difficult and unlikely, the possibility of forming or maintaining open, honest, intimate relationships in a world of ignorance, denial, disinformation, delusion, and hopium. i personally don’t know anyone who approaches my sense of alienation from mainstream culture and despair about the future. it makes for a very lonely, isolated existence. an existence in which cyberspace relationships, such as have been formed on this blog, take on much added importance.

    regular participants to nbl come and go. right off the top of my head, there was ‘victor’, who used to post multiple times daily for maybe 2 years here, until he abruptly stopped last year, leaving the rest of us to wonder if he died or what? who knows? also makes me wonder about the possibility of something happening to guy suddenly, resulting in sudden extinction of nbl. lots of cyberspace relationships could end, unless we all moved along to some other similar blog like xray mike’s. oh well. having such concerns is certainly preferable to the life and death ones many of us will surely face sooner or later. (i say many of us, rather than all of us, because for some, death may come suddenly, without time to prepare or think about it)

  • 3rd post SORRRRRY!

    But TVT, you should really listen to the interview and/or read the book because Prof. Varki explicitly describes his theory about the extreme depression and horror that results from the knowledge you describe. Mere recognition of one’s individual mortality is somewhat paralyzing (which is why I’ve had a driving phobia for decades!) and interferes with general sociability, which makes relationships for those who possess it quite problematic. This decreases the likelihood that they will pass on their genes, thus selecting for a general dominant trait of denial – not just of personal mortality, let alone NTE – but of anything unpleasant whatsoever, including the adverse health effects of smoking, injuries from skiing, etc…ad infinitum.

    It’s the optimism bias with an evolutionary biology explanation.

    Kinda cool.

  • i have been following this site for several months..i guess i logged in and began reading pretty much all of the comments and followed most of the links since last December. want to say thanks to Guy for maintaining it…and as has been expressed repeatedly by so many…it is a calming refuge.

    my journey towards these expectations, understandings, suspicions…as to our civilization’s fate has been a long one. i am 53.

    i remember watching nature shows as a kid…and from a very young age the word “extinction” always rang heavy to me. the hiding under the desk drills, jaques cousteau’s incessant heartfelt pleas..

    when i was 17 i did a sketch titled “spillage in the prison” it was pretty crude, it centered on a skeleton that had etched on the ground,prior to dying, the words “its too late “…that was 1977.

    when i was in my late 20’s..i had a wonderful romantic relationship with a woman who has since gone on to be a succesful and great artist. we were as close to being “soul mates ” as anyone could ever wish for. except for one big thing. when i would express to her where i thought this whole thing was going…she would inevitably start to cry. she couldnt get how i could reconcile such thoughts with actual true feelings of joy and happiness and all the other good stuff. she called it my dark core. something i could work through.

    i have drifted through bouts of being a lawyer…to working for “environmental” groups in various capacities…and a wide range of other jobs to pay the bills. for the last 15 years i have been a school teacher. i work now in a hospital.i get paid ( for now ) by the local school system to teach high school social studies and english.

    people are often taken aback that i can work with these students on a daily basis without being overcome by grief. my students have various types of cancer, brain tumors…they are getting liver , heart, lung and bone marrow transplants..but oddly…i need to be around people who are facing such harsh realities. to only interact with the main population and the rose colored view of it all makes me crazy and depressed.

    i have 2 sisters in town. we are all in our 50s. none of us have children
    i can brielfy broach the topic discussed in this forum with them…but i have learned that it is taboo, even among my most open minded friends.

    for years i was mostly focused on the economic/ political/energy angles of collapse. then…i guess it was around 2004 when the methane release started to get bandied about by a few scientists. that got my attention. then…the accelerating pace of the changes that kept catching the experts off guard pretty much brought it all home. in my face. it is always on my mind. i have learned to walk with it. live with it. to let it bring a new appreciation of every moment. to be present, as best i can, in every interaction i have with other living things.

    i could write hundreds of pages about this…as im sure all of you can and many of you have..

    some brief ways it effects me

    — i used to paint. i want to get back to it…but i find it somewhat self indulgent and trivial. my main subjects are insects and birds…i try to add some abstract elements that somehow get to the concepts of time. hard to bring myself to focus on that anymore

    – as a single person…the prospect of meeting someone and establishing a true and honest relationship is bordering on comical. i think of Paul Cherfuka’s 1 in 10,000 estimate.
    – i have contemplated suicide as an ethical dilemma/touchstone for over 30 years. ie…how can i justify the use of resources for my own survival in the face of such brutal and overt exploitation ?

    in the downtown area of the small southern town i live in…there is a tall building that shines a light into the night sky. not 10 years ago..on a warm summer night…i would love to sit and look up at it…20 plus stories high. it would be swarming with insects of all types.a big living cloud. you could see luna and cecropia moths mixed into the swirl. and all through it…like a giant bait ball, bats and night hawks would be casually slashing through it. its quiet now. no bugs !

  • @ Kathy C

    You state:

    “Daniel, since this is an open blog, people will continually join in who are at very different places than old timers. Since this is an unmoderated blog people will talk about what they want to talk about regardless of any wish of others to stick to certain subjects. Other than no insults rule (currently being ignored at present) and two posts a day (which prevented domination by a few = and I was guilty myself in the past of over frequent posting) there are no rules. So while you can ask for the conversation to go in a certain direction, you will be wasting your time…….What you want would best be talked about on a blog that limits who can post and what they can post. You could set up such a blog. You can invite everyone, then eliminate those who don’t stay on topic or the posts that aren’t on topic. ”

    Trust me Kathy, I am painfully aware of the futility of cat herding, given a significant chunk of my life has been lost in a plethora of decadal fruitless attempts. There are few here who have immodestly embodied Rovics song “I’m a better anarchist than you” more than yours truly. I have never not been on the radical fringe, you could say, lost causes are my specialty.

    I’m also quite clear of both the curse and freedom of an open blog like we have here at NBL, as well as Guy probably having no interest in moderating more than he has to already, which is already a hell of a lot more than I ever would. I am not an active blogger, I post only here, for only one reason: exploring the myriad implications of NTE. And yes, I clearly have little patience for those who seek to obfuscate that vague objective.

    I am only asking questions and making observations that are both difficult to answer, as well as refute. There is a clear distinction between what you wrongly imply my intent to be, between “…..asking for the conversation to go in a certain direction….” and commenting on where the conversation has gone, where it is going and where it will most likely continue to go under current circumstances.

    One could ask, how might those circumstances change if we sought to shine a light on them by asking open ended questions.

    We are all well acclimated to what some have called “doomer porn” and what the rest of us just call reality: the endless stream of daily news and research of our ever mounting and accelerating near term cataclysm. I have been very fortunate, where I’ve been able to dedicate my life to study. And while I am still more than willing to submit my daily dose of catastrophe for our mutual consumption, I am becoming ever less interested in the continued meritocratic annotation of what many of us have long come to accept to be inevitable, especially now in light of NTE. And where in its stead, and as a direct result of the overwhelming severity of NTE itself, I am now really only interested in commiserating with those I consider to be fellow travelers–which you are definitely one.

    “We”–whoever you wish to include that to imply–are in a holding pattern, either by will or external circumstance. While we all clearly have unique individual backgrounds, which hopelessly prove to be a source of contention, “we” also just so happen to be detailing, observing, witnessing and coming to terms with a degree of empirical evidence that could easily be considered the greatest Tabula rasa event in all of human history. The reality of NTE, is an unprecedented unifying event.

    Therefore, I don’t consider it to be unusual to question how NBL–the only blog on the web–currently dedicated to considering NTE–might explore ways of both attempting to keep the conversation within certain parameters, as well as continue to delve into the intellectual no-man’s-land of what comes after acceptance of NTE. And which my question “how might we attempt to steer the conversation towards that end” only suggests.

    Not interested in controlling the conversation, I’ve just an insatiable sense of morbid curiosity.

    @ Robin Datta

    “It was Dr. McPherson’s “The end of civilization and the extinction of humanity” talk transcript reposted on the great but now-defunct”Energy Bulletin” that first brought me to NBL.”


    @ Gail

    Yet another exceptional post!

    As to your response to David F +1 as well.

    @ TVT

    In the spirit of letting bygones be, that was an insightful post. I’m embarrassed I did not catch your rather groundbreaking essay, thank you for bringing it to my attention, as well as helping create an environment where such a weighted concept can be honestly discussed without fear and threat of reflexive condemnation.

    @ Lidia

    I’m sorry if I left you with the impression of having to explain your choice to have surgery, with you still being in recovery and all. But I was making absolutely no judgment call and was only using it as an example to show just one of the many different ways of looking at how NTE now affects our choices.

    I had a recent health scare–absolutely nothing compared to what you are currently going through–but something that forced me to have that come to Jesus moment with NTE. That “do I really fucking believe this shit to a point I’m willing to act on it” ?!?! And my answer was yes.

    I know of your dependents and responsibilities, mine are nothing in comparison, which speaks to the larger point I was attempting to make. I completely understand why you underwent surgery, and I would make the same choice if I was in your position, so again, sorry for any confusion. Glad to see you’re making a speedy recovery. All the best!

    @ Artleads

    Now we’re talkin……great post!

  • @ Ozman

    Additional nonsense noted. I’m sure readers will be able to draw their own conclusions.

    So, you agree, no more reincarnation, after NTE. So that’s the end of that then. Busted.

    You may not think Adidam is a religion, Ozman, but unfortunately for you, people much better qualified than yourself see it as rehashed and regurgitated Hinduism of a somewhat disreputable flavour. For example :

    Adi Da Samraj (November 3, 1939 – November 27, 2008),[1][2] born Franklin Albert Jones in Queens, New York, was a spiritual teacher, writer and artist, and the founder of a new religious movement known as Adidam. Adi Da changed his name numerous times throughout his life; these names included Bubba Free John, Da Free John, Da Love-Ananda, Da Kalki, Da Avadhoota and Da Avabhasa among others. From 1991 until his death, he was known as Adi Da Love-Ananda Samraj or Adi Da.[3]

    Adi Da initially became known in the spiritual counterculture of the 1970s for his books and public talks, and for the activities of his religious community. His philosophy was essentially similar to many eastern religions which see spiritual enlightenment as the ultimate priority of human life.[4][5][6] Distinguishing his from other religious traditions, Adi Da declared that he was a uniquely historic avatar (incarnation of a god or divinity in human form). As such, Adi Da stated that devotional worship of him is the sole means of spiritual enlightenment for others.[7]

    In the mid-1980s, allegations by former followers of false imprisonment, brainwashing, sexual abuse, assault and involuntary servitude received international media attention.[8][9] These allegations resulted in lawsuits or threatened suits on both sides. Wiki.

    Looks like the brainwashing was rather effective in your case, Ozman. Imo, worshipping a guru as a god is infantile, pathetic, demeaning, and any human who sets themselves up to be a divinity and permitted themselves to be seen as such is obviously a fraud exploiting the naive and gullible.

    But there we are, Ozman, if that’s your ‘thing’, why should I care. Some people need to worship other people, like fans worship celebrities, sadists need masochists and vice versa. What is wholly unacceptable is your repeated attempts to recruit ME and co-opting others into believing that stuff on this blog.

    Ozman, your insistence upon confrontation is not something I object to, per se, because I’m used to conflict, I’ve had it all my life.
    I like an opponent who has some really good tough interesting arguments that are worth getting to grips with. You, however, don’t appear to have anything other than an indignant pompous ego.

    Last time you did this you were demanding an apology from me, regarding Kung Fu, and then you ended up grovelling and snivelling and insisting you were sincere. All I can say is that I find it all boring and tiresome and a waste of time.

    Work out your hang ups with someone else somewhere else, please, and stop trying to pick fights with me. I’m not interested in what your dreams tell you, nor in Adi Da nor in your grandiose ‘plan’. I seem to recall last week you were going to fight the drones. You live in fantasies and self-indulgence.

    In the real world, the ice is melting and people and animals are dying. I gave you exhaustive definitions of empirical reality before, which you seem already to have forgotten. I like opponents who learn.

    Facing reality is hard, it takes courage, you don’t have the mettle, Ozman, you prefer denial, hence your cloud cuckoo fantasy land. Life is too short, problems too serious, to waste time on people who are deluded. No more of my time for you.

    @ Artleads


    A lot wrong with it, imo, but an interesting, original, constructive, intelligent angle, so I’ll give you that compliment, and maybe it’ll develop.

    U (who would be inner core), apparently, is sufficiently concerned about mitigation to decry too much dependence on necessarily over-simple human interventions to avoid collapse.

    My position would be analogous to, say, mediaeval physicians around a sick patient. They simply do not have sufficient understanding of human physiology and pathologies to get the correct diagnosis and the correct treatment.

    So it is with us, re the the biosphere. We’ve interfered with something we do not understand, produced unwelcome results we did not foresee, and now we do not know what to do.

    Let’s be clear. I take a biocentric or ecocentric stance. By that I mean I’m not interested in saving civilisation, cities, or saving humans, because the only thing worth saving is the biosphere, that is the sum total of the natural ecosystems on the surface of the planet.

    Guy proposed, a couple of years back, that the only way to avoid terminal catastrophe was to crash industrial civilisation, that being the root cause of the ‘illness’. Other ‘surgeons’ ( Kaczynski, Zerzan, jensen, E. Goldsmith, etc. ) have made similar diagnoses. So it’s not ‘avoidance of collapse’ ( of industrial civilisation ) that’s wanted. It’s immediate collapse. To avoid the far greater catastrophe, that being collapse of the biosphere.

    However, that course of treatment appears to be impossible, for fairly obvious reasons.
    So, the sick patient languishes, getting sicker as the disease progresses. So, when the biosphere does finally collapse, we lose civilisation, we lose humans, and we lose most other living creatures too, in a classic mass extinction event.

    What possible remedies are available ? There is the suggestion that Nature would heal itself, by a homeostatic principle, analogous to that which heals the human body, if we humans took a ‘hands off’ approach and allowed Nature to do what it wished. Many scientists would contest that view. Two main positions are Peter Ward’s and J. Lovelock’s. In any case, what chance is there that humans will take a ‘hands off’ approach ? None.

    Daisy World

  • found this interesting:

    Weekend Rebel Science Excursion – 17

    There was a movie series about “The Rise of The Machines” accentuating the myth of machines arising to take control of biological species, specifically the human species.

    The basic theme and plot is that in the future machines will become sentient or the like, and will seek to have control over humans, who up to that time in history always had control over machines.

    That theme and plot is a very narrow and uninformed view of evolution in many aspects, especially in the sense of “which came first, machines or biological organisms?”

    (and goes on)

    According to Dr. Enríquez, lead investigator on the study, “Understanding how cells generate energy is fundamental to understanding living systems, and for much of the last century this was a primary object of studies in biochemistry. By the beginning of the 80s the mystery of how mitochondria achieve this task was thought to be solved, and in the 90s the molecular structures responsible were resolved in incredible detail. This was considered to be one of the best understood processes in the cell.”

    This view was overturned by the description of mitochondrial diseases. Despite the impressive accumulation of knowledge of mitochondrial function, the models could not explain the symptoms of these diseases, and researchers were unable to predict who would develop these diseases or how severe they would be, or explain their origin and mechanism. As a consequence, it has not been possible to develop effective treatments.

    This situation revealed that our knowledge of mitochondrial function was much less complete than had been believed and that our models were inadequate. Therefore research over the last ten years has been directed at providing a better understanding of this process.

    . . .

    That paper goes on to reveal a major discovery which is instructive as to how cells function:

    The new study confirms the model proposed in 2008 by the group led by Dr. Enríquez, who affirms that “this redefines our view of one of the most basic processes for life in all cells.”

    The energy released from the rupture of chemical bonds in food molecules is stored temporarily in the form of high energy electrons in two types of molecule, N and F, whose proportions vary depending on the nutrient source. By themselves, these molecules cannot provide a freely utilizable source of rapidly mobilized energy for the cell’s needs; access to this stored energy requires the mitochondria, which uses five molecular machines, called complexes I, II, III, IV and V, to convert the energy stored in N and F molecules into the universal energy source ATP.
    (ibid, emphasis added). The “five molecular machines” are used by what we call biological entities, i.e. “mitochondria.”

    Those mitochondria exist within other biological entities, i.e. “cells,” and use “five molecular machines” to store and later retrieve energy —in what we could also describe as “the tiniest batteries.”

    Our culture does not consider “cell battery”, “cell phone battery”, or “battery cell” to be science fiction terms, because we use those words and those gadgets every day.

    What does sound like science fiction is “molecular machines” which are used to convert energy in “molecular batteries” into useful purposes within a living biological cell.

    (and has some profound quotes like)

    Looking at it that way, the machines are at the foundation of biological organisms aren’t they? We are in a sense cyborg, then, because we are both machine and organic.” (2/14/09)

    “Our cells, and the cells of all organisms, are composed of molecular machines. These machines are built of component parts, each of which contributes a partial function or structural element to the machine. How such sophisticated, multi-component machines could evolve has been somewhat mysterious, and highly controversial.” Professor Lithgow said.” (9/25/09).

    Dr Clarke said: “There are a lot of fundamental questions about the origins of life and many people think they are questions about biology. But for life to have evolved, you have to have a moment when non-living things become living – everything up to that point is chemistry.”

    “Many cellular processes are carried out by molecular ‘machines’ — assemblies of multiple differentiated proteins that physically interact to execute biological functions … Our experiments show that increased complexity in an essential molecular machine evolved because of simple, high-probability evolutionary processes, without the apparent evolution of novel functions. They point to a plausible mechanism for the evolution of complexity in other multi-paralogue protein complexes.” (4/10/12)

    “Writing in the journal PLoS Pathogens, the team from Queen Mary’s School of Biological and Chemical Sciences show how they studied the molecular machine known as the ‘type II bacterial secretion system’, which is responsible for delivering potent toxins from bacteria such as enterotoxigenic E. coli and Vibrio cholerae into an infected individual.

    Professor Richard Pickersgill, who led the research, said: “Bacterial secretion systems deliver disease causing toxins into host tissue. If we can understand how these machines work, then we can work out how it they might be stopped.” (4/10/12)

    “The most complex molecular machines are found within cells.” (ibid)

  • and the other way, I found this also to be interesting:

    Great barriers do exist in space and Voyager may have reached one: now what?

    June 29, 2013 – SPACE – Launched 36 years ago, the Voyager 1 spacecraft speeds a rate of about a million miles a day entering a bizarre and mysterious region more than 11 billion miles from Earth that scientists are struggling to make sense of. It’s a region where the fierce solar winds have all but vanished and pieces of atoms blasted across the galaxy by ancient supernovae drift into the solar system, the NASA probe is causing scientists to question some long-standing theories on the nature of our solar system and life beyond its cold dark edge dubbed the “magnetic highway” –a newly discovered area of the heliosphere, the vast bubble of magnetism that shields the solar system from deadly cosmic rays. Scientists had long envisioned this outermost layer of the solar systems, the heliosheath, to be a curved, distinct boundary separating the solar system from the rest of the Milky Way where three things would happen: The sun’s solar winds would become quiet; galactic cosmic rays would bombard Voyager; and the direction of the dominant magnetic field would change significantly because it would be coming from interstellar space, not the sun. “The models that have been thought to predict what should happen are all incorrect,” said physicist Stamatios Krimigis of the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Scientists had assumed when Voyager exited the heliosphere, the vast bubble of magnetism surrounding the solar system, solar winds would become still, galactic cosmic rays would bombard Voyager from every angle and the direction of the magnetic field would change because it would be coming from interstellar space, not the sun.

    But the latest readings from Voyagers instruments support none of those suppositions, scientists said. Voyager has reported solar winds suddenly dropped by half, while the strength of the magnetic field almost doubled, and those values then switched back and forth five times before they became fixed. “The jumps indicate multiple crossings of a boundary unlike anything observed previously,” a team of Voyager scientists wrote in one a study. Voyager did detect the expected increase in galactic cosmic rays but found at times the rays were moving in parallel instead of traveling randomly. “This was conceptually unthinkable for cosmic rays,” Stamatios Krimigis, a solar physicist at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md., told the Los Angeles Times. “There is no cosmic ray physicist I know who ever expected that they would not all be coming equally from all directions.” Whether Voyager 1 — which launched in 1977 — has truly left the solar system has been a matter of some debate, because scientists have come up with competing theories on what constitutes in outermost edge. “We’re not free yet,” Krimigis said. “This is a new region that we didn’t know existed. We have no road map, and we’re waiting to see what’s going to happen next.” –Daily Galaxy

  • @ ant ape

    You state:

    “people are often taken aback that i can work with these students on a daily basis without being overcome by grief. my students have various types of cancer, brain tumors…they are getting liver , heart, lung and bone marrow transplants..but oddly…i need to be around people who are facing such harsh realities. to only interact with the main population and the rose colored view of it all makes me crazy and depressed.”

    Wow! the sign of the times are everywhere, sometimes where you would think, often times where you would least expect it. When teaching terminally ill children can be considered a reprieve from the depression of having to deal with the population at large……something has seriously gone awry. Wish I couldn’t relate, but sadly you’re coming through load and clear.

    Thanks for sharing your story.

  • Dave F,

    Thanks for the support. Your place of retreat seems quite similar to mine. I ditto what you said about Lidia.


    Re: Your link: I found it educational, even if depressingly erudite. Lovelock is quite cheerful, given his prognosis.

    I had looked at another of your links a few days back. It was a sort of “NTE” curriculum that required reading such figures as Howard Zinn and Lewis Mumford. I glanced at Mumford’s writing on the machine–especially the need for the machine to stop making more machines. Interesting, and seemingly related to my own nascent ideas. Use the technology we have to sequester carbon (or the like), but not for the furtherance of capitalism and its resultant need for more machines. To build some discussion around the entire curriculum would interest me.

  • Perhaps “everybody does know”. It’s interesting to read articles like this on the weather page.

  • Tom

    Loved the tidbit about Voyager, amazing it’s still working.

    Unlike say a 37 year old car like
    a 1976 Pinto.

    Reinforces Ulvfugl’s thoughts on how little humans really know about the Universe, or the Solar System, or..drum roll…Earth and it’s interconnectedness.

    Let sleeping dogs lie.

    The leg bone is connect to the foot bone….only way more complex.

    Wallace Broeker’s quote pops to mind:

    “Climate is an angry beast and we are poking at it with sticks”

    Geo engineering, the Final Frontier…To boldly go where no man has gone before…

    It will be like monkeys cracking walnuts with their iPhones.

    On an odd note, I casually responded to a friend’s anguish about a news item showing starvation in an utterly overpopulated part of the world with,”Well, you can’t expand Infinitely in a Finite space.”

    She said (amazed),”Really? I never thought of it like that.” I didn’t know what to say to her ‘Epiphany’. Normally I would respond with sarcasm but for some reason just let it go.

    Later that same day, she called me up and asked me if I remembered what I had said about the news item. She thought it was so ‘profound’ that she wanted to write it down and think about it. She is well educated and intelligent and was actually sincere. She had recently retired from a long interesting career. I found it quite odd she had followed up on a casual remark and I’ve been wondering if this will lead her down the dark path to NTE.

    I don’t believe in spitting into the wind.

    I would never try to enlighten anyone about NTE without some indication of a true willingness on someone’s part to Dig Deep.

    Never cast Pearls Before Swine

  • There’s a strong field of contenders for the title of America’s stupidest place to build a city. The Southwest has a number of contenders that put millions of people in places where there’s no water. Atlanta is finding out that putting 5 million people well up stream on a minor river could be problematic. Then there are the cities vying to become waterworlds, like New Orleans, and the often overlooked, Miami. This article proposes that Miami has a shot at being the first city to win the gold at the up coming doomsday olympics.

    In 1992, Hurricane Andrew’s 17 ft storm surge missed this nuke plant by only ten miles.

    “Stoddard­ says the one of the emergency diesel generators was located about 15 feet above sea level, and it was housed in a container with open louvers. “How easy would it be for water to flow into that? How well does that generator work when it is under water?”

    I was denied access to the inner workings, but I got a very nice view of two aging 40-year-old reactors perched on the edge of a rising sea with millions of people living within a few miles of the plant. It was as clear a picture of the insanity of modern life as I’ve ever seen.”

    5.5 million people are one storm strike away from having a Fukushima on their doorstep, and it could happen any year.

  • I’m beginning to think that Gail could be right. It could well be that we were genetically programed by Mother Nature herself to extinguish all life on this planet. Afterall it was she who created this intelligent ape, and it was she who put uranium within the reach of our curious fingers. So it may be that nature wanted us to make those nukes and nuke plants, knowing that they would eventually saturate the planet with radiation and allow her to create a whole new batch of life especially adapted to the new radioactive environment. Everything humans have done was part of nature’s plan, from George W. Bush to your favorite rose bush. That includes of course, industrial civilization, so by trying to stop it you are interfering with nature’s plan. That seems arrogant to me, thinking that we know better than Mother Nature. Commiseration also seems like a childish lack of acceptance of MN’s plans, crying over that fact that she didn’t do things the way we wanted. Extinguishing life was our mission as humans, we should be proud and happy that we fulfilled our mission, the one that Mother Nature herself gave us. It’s all clear to me now – nature was batting all the time.

  • Ripley.

    George Carlin’s take on your comment was that the Earth did not know how to make plastic, so the Earth allowed humans to evolve in order that they could invent and manufacture plastic.

    Now that the Earth has plastic out ‘job’ is done and the Earth can get rid of us.

    I do think there was an element of facetiousness in Carlin’s commentary, perhaps even bitter irony.

    Carlin declared that people misunderstood him if they thought he did not generally like people. He assured the world that he did like people…….for a minute or a minute-and-a-half. After that……

    Anyway, nature is in the process of demolishing industrial civilisation and ‘all who sail in her’.

    Is this indicative of the mayhem to come soon?:

  • Daniel When teaching terminally ill children can be considered a reprieve from the depression of having to deal with the population at large……something has seriously gone awry. Like Ant ape I have found that doing something for terminally ill people is in fact a source of great joy. My experiences with Hospice patients were mostly wonderful (except for the one elderly man who thought my warmth meant I was in love with him – I told Hospice no more men unless they are gay). This is not indicative of something awry, this is indicative of something right. When someone can relate to a dying person that person has gone a long way towards accepting mortality. What is wrong is when we separate the ill and dying from the rest of us because this reality depresses us. Dying people who have accepted that their death is near often have much to offer those whose death is not believed to be so near.

    Ant ape – thanks for sharing your story and thank you for being unafraid to be there for those who cannot hide from their mortality. As Robert Attack would say – thank you for not having children.

    Gail just a few of countless examples of prominent figures and experts who peer into the abyss, shudder, and fall back on fiction to soothe their terror. Even before NTE I have noticed authors making their case and then waffling – mostly about how our genes program us and then trying to find some way that we are still independent of them in the last chapter of the book – Steven Pinker comes to mind. You captured well this problem. Great post

    Here is what matters folks – feelings matter. Physical feelings, emotional feelings. They matter because our genes make them matter. They matter most exquisitely to humans. They matter to animals, do what degree we don’t know. We can guess for a dog, we don’t know for a worm – all that squiggling when cut by a shovel – is that just avoidance behavior or horrible pain? So with whatever time we have left we can do something about feelings, ours and others. What that is I can only say for myself. Others have their own answer. Of course preventing new humans from entering a world where most feelings are going to be negative ones is the one thing I will say is what any fertile person should do. No other shoulds, we each have to find our own way.

  • These are the sort of people we are up against. They think they can fit the Beach of Doom in a box and everything will be manageable. Don’t even know how to hold an effing gold plated shovel properly. Wouldn’t last half a day constructing sand castles.


    @ Artleads

    …even if depressingly erudite. Lovelock is quite cheerful, given his prognosis.

    erudite ? I think it’s very easy and simple. But if you find it difficult, I’m quite willing to make a thread on NTE and answer any questions for anybody who might be interested.

    That’s a very old video, when there was still hope, and Lovelock was in his prime. Nobody expected things to turn out as they have. Everyone expected the grown ups to act like grown ups and make responsible decisions. Lovelock was cheerful and optimistic at that time.

    I had looked at another of your links a few days back. It was a sort of “NTE” curriculum

    Those links are all also old now. NTE had never been considered by any of those authors. They all issued warnings of dire consequences, as many still do today, the absurd and infuriating “IF URGENT ACTION IS NOT TAKEN…” refrain that ends every fucking article, but which no author can ever actually define and detail. But none of those old articles envisaged that we’d ever reach this stage, where we’d ignore all the dire warnings, carry on as if there was no problem and actually INCREASE emissions instead of cutting them…

    If you want to discuss Mumford and machines, then you’ll have to find someone else, I’m not into techno-solutions myself, for a whole lot of reasons I shall not go into here.

  • I agree with Lidia: “the only logical and coherent response to full NTE acceptance combined with complete empathy for other beings is to immediately commit suicide.” Especially for those of us “trapped” in the clutches of industrial civilization.

    And ant ape: “i have contemplated suicide as an ethical dilemma/touchstone for over 30 years. ie…how can i justify the use of resources for my own survival in the face of such brutal and overt exploitation ?”

    I’ve said it before, the only way for me to not participate in industrial civilization is to wander out into the wilderness – and quickly die of exposure or starvation.

    But, I’m not doing that, yet. Instead, I’m staying put, with no plans at all – no plans for anything beyond right now, no 401k thoughts, no reverse mortgage ideas or assisted living options to ponder. I know I have no future, none.

  • @ U

    “erudite ? I think it’s very easy and simple.”

    OK, it’s easy and simple. I looked at others (on the same video link) beside Lovelock, and those were sometimes complex. Lovelock’s suggesting that Earth would or could need human intelligence down the line, a bit complex, is probably moot by now. The video made at age 90 did have him smiling like a cherub throughout, although it was done recently.

    Since you post these links, I figure you have an interest in us discussing them. If not, I won’t bother responding to them.

    Moderation and commonsense seem (today) like the best approach to NTE. Although (and perhaps, because,)we understand little, we might manage better by just relying on old truths–things like the golden rule, not pressing the case… Not jumping off a cliff because maybe we were programed to jump off a cliff all along. I can’t make these sweeping assumptions. Why not just try to avoid doing the obviously stupid things that make me or others unhappy?

    One point of consideration. Of all the issues of collapse, including un-survivable weather and nuclear radiation, the worst and most urgent problem to me is what humans will do to make matters worse.

  • Attention all doomsday sharks infesting this yere pool with their whines and spew!!!

    I wandered over to this blog

    and found the following comments, which I’m posting below for posterity – and general hilarity (the southwest will be uninhabitable…by mid-century!). Notice that though RobertScribbler is of the opinion that doomsday sharks ignore facts, he presents this optimisitic observation as proof that people are becoming more enlightened and making progress:

    “In total, we’ve managed to push US carbon emissions back to 1990s levels. And that’s major ground gained.”

    …Somehow forgetting that GLOBAL emissions are up, and that is the only kind that GLOBAL warming cares about and furthermore, US emissions are down not because, as he posits, we are switching to clean energy, conserving, or improving car mileage efficiency, but because

    1. we’ve outsourced our manufacturing and DON’T COUNT those emissions from production of our junk, nor do we count emissions from international shipping which is one of the worst offenders because of the dirty fuel they legally can burn offshore; and

    2. the US is in a depression!!!

    from the comment thread:

    xraymike79 / June 28, 2013
    I haven’t read all the comments over on my last blog entry, but from just skimming through them, it looks like you handled yourself pretty well inside the pool of doomsday sharks. I think the key point is that if we want to preserve anything of the present civilization, then we have to take extreme measures to convert to alternative energy sources and leave the fossil fuels in the ground. This will entail great sacrifice and out-of-the-box thinking, but it’s the only chance mankind has. To be honest, I think it’s too late. Only after we suffer major food shortages will people wake up. I’m in Parker, Az right now and I was told it is going to hit 124 F tomorrow. I believe that would be a new record. The Southwest will be one of those uninhabitable places by mid century.

    robertscribbler / June 28, 2013
    For some people, it doesn’t matter how many factual statements you post, they’ll keep shifting away from the original line of conversation in an attempt to put you on shaky ground. It’s neurotic and really starts to get on my nerves after a while….

    I don’t have a problem with ‘doomers’ who say we’re probably finished, but we should do our best anyway. That’s practical, rational, and develops a sense of urgency, even if it is a bit pessimistic. Doomers who seem addicted to the idea of apocalypse or who endlessly whine about what we can’t do need to find some dark corner to go cry themselves to sleep in. They’re fulfilling no purpose by spewing their dark views other than to demoralize people and, in my view, are just another incarnation of denial. But in this case, it’s the denial that we have any choice other than to keep doing what we’re doing, as bad as it is.

    We are going to face powerful climate impacts over the next 10-20 years — worsening with time. And this will be terrifying to many people. Hopefully, terrifying enough to get everyone moving in the right direction

    For my part, I’m all in on beating the drum for the solutions while shining a light on the emerging crisis. I hope, and I believe this is justifiable, that an energy switch will mitigate enough of the problem for us to make it through. In any case, the world will probably be radically altered even if we do. And we’ll need very resilient and just systems if we’re to have much hope of avoiding complete collapse and eventually reconstructing prosperity. So my hope is qualified. Moreso, my urgency is driven by terror of what may happen. And I really don’t even think half these doomers, who seem to lust for a horrible end, even realize what it is they’re talking about…

    As for we’re finished… My thoughts are we’re still alive and the worst hasn’t even started yet. There are 10,000 decisions between now and ‘we’re finished.’ So I still believe an urgent response can pull us out. Even now, the ship ponderously turns. Not fast enough, in my view. But she turns. If the rate of change hasn’t improved much by 2020, then I’ll agree with you and shift to ‘probably finished, but we still need to give it our best shot.’

    …In total, we’ve managed to push US carbon emissions back to 1990s levels. And that’s major ground gained.

  • @ Gail:

    I am of the opinion that we have several concurrent problems that make your “hope” unfounded:

    1) Overpopulation – you can’t solve this problem within the time frame necessary to make a difference.

    2) TPTB are not on “our side” and they are going to ride industrial civilization to the very end.

    3) Think about this: 7 billion people on the planet, 11 billion projected by 2050 (yes, that’s 2050). 20% live in Extreme Poverty – these people are not interested in alternative energy – they just want to EAT.

    4) Increases in climate catastrophes, economic collapses, recessions/depressions, wars, famine, pestilence, political tensions, etc. Peak Oil. Peak Everything.

    But, the number one reason there is NO HOPE:

    “we’ve pulled the trigger on five positive-feedback events” – Guy McPherson

    In August 2007, Guy’s posts got like 20 comments – now they get well over 200! Also, in 2007 and 2008 I don’t recognize the names of ANY of the commenters… where did they all go? Doomer Heaven?

  • I stopped posting a couple of months ago. I’m a farmer and have been all my life. April, May, and June are always very difficult but if you can survive these 3 months, the rest of the year just falls into place. There isn’t time for posting but I do read in the wee hours of the morning. June has been very bad for farmers here in New York. More heat, more rain and more CO2 make things grow but we need some dry days to get stuff harvested. Lots of corn isn’t planted or sprayed. I guess that half the hay crop will be lost. Ten more days of rain and I was told that it won’t change until August. Folks are talking about the weather. “Something is wrong.” I’m starting to get a little respect. Like others here, I’m known as the one who “brutally tells the truth”. Of course no one likes it…until TSHTF. There is now talk of jet streams, stagnant fronts etc. People don’t walk the other way when they see me coming. But, as soon as the sun comes back out, they will forget all about it.

    Expect food prices to rise some more.

  • ulvfugl

    You completely miss the point of my posts.

    As for the wiki you refer to about some of the ‘scandals’ regarding Adi Da and Adidam, did you bother to investigate those claims?

    Probably not.

    I did and it turns out that the main claim comes from a female devotee, or approaching devotee,(Newbe) who was on retreat on an Island in the Fiji, which was only able to be transported to by boat, which was days away. The devotee had a not unheard of reaction, and wanted out, and demanded transportation immediately. being there of her free will, with the full understanding the boat was not at personal disposal did not dissuade her from being indignant, and later bringing the charges of ‘false imprisonment’ etc.

    All the crap about sexual abuse was to add verve to the claim. Sexual yoga, as a spiritual discipline is age old, you don’t know that?

    Emotional sexual teaching was and is necessary, because if you haven’t noticed, most moderns are very fucked up in those intimate areas.
    The true guru creates waves, creates controversy, not glibly, but to wake people up to their own ego games.
    I find it hard to figure you could be down on Hinduism per se. Adi Da actually fulfils an esoteric branch of the line from Hinduism. You can do more research if you please.

    Your characterisation of me is not put as a view, it is stated as fact.

    It is a bit surprising to me you aren’t a follower of Two-pack-polly-filler, who says “be your own guru”. What an absurd idea.

    The reality is we have a planet like we have now, because of the ‘ego’ situation. And working up to 9 Billion of them.

    Older local traditions had paths and ways to grow beyond the Ego adaptation, but the wreckage of empire has destroyed them, or all but, and replaced them with ‘satisfy you shallowest ego desires’ delivered to your roving surveillance screen device. On top of so much material wealth, and poor social and environmental engagement, it is no wonder Ego is dominant.

    But what few realise is this was always unavoidable, the rise of Ego culture. Growth is an imperative,(growth in psychological and spiritual terms), and we were never going to get past this ‘moment’ without understanding(ourselves).

    Cultures like India, the birthplace of Hinduism, are rapidly transforming to a ‘Materialist’ culture. In this sense Hinduism is not corrupt, just let lie.

    I just hope other readers here can see through your personal refusal to see any merit in my views, regarding ‘reality’. You have done a good character assassination job on me, and tried to impugn a great Avatar too, just to satisfy so highbrow puffy-fish-like self importance.

    You write so very arrogantly:

    “You may not think Adidam is a religion, Ozman, but unfortunately for you, people much better qualified than yourself see it as rehashed and regurgitated Hinduism of a somewhat disreputable flavour….”

    Let me just emphasise again …”people much better qualified than yourself…”

    just let it sit there, float around….

    I am human, and what more qualifications are required? Scholars? Oh that! Well they are fine, but what about the ‘doing’.

    You seem to be an arch credentialist. I don’t suffer that kind of prejudice, however, and look to understanding as my guide.

    Are birds scholars? Yet they teach me so much, without documents and classes and jumping through hoops for a credential. It is the understanding that is the real content, and you don’t need a bit of paper to understand being human. That is pretty clear!!

    You can have the experts, even though they should be listened to just like everyone else. I make up my own mind on subjects concerning my humanity. Your gibberish is just squid ink, made to distract others.

    Best I’ll leave you to your ’empirical reality’.

    ulvfugl tries to beat up a God-man. HA HA HA.


    ‘Adi Da Samraj: Growing Up in Adidam’

    ‘Da Free John (Adi Da Samraj, Adidam) Today Show 5/9/85 pt 1’

    Today Show Expose on Adidam – 2

    Crucifixion? Freedom? Crucifixion?

    Some well founded scepticism there, and a lot of industrial scale media cult framing.

    The guy who ‘bought’ the island…. He mortgaged his house to raise the money, and all the while all the other devotees were warning him not to, that he would go bust and his practice would suffer. But he did it because he understood the need at the time was for Adi Da to establish a secluded sanctuary.

    Just one point, who would you rather believe, the corporate backed media spin machine, (‘stay in your suburbs folks’) or someone who brought love for free?

    This stuff is challenging, very challenging, but then, that is what it is supposed to be.

    Get it from the Man himself.

    ‘Adi Da Samraj: The Transmission of Love-Bliss-Now’

    And on Zen in the great tradition….. even…

    ‘Adi Da Samraj Illuminates the Streams of Buddhism’

    And for some light reading…

    “We are Consciousness Itself’

    ‘Not-Two Is Peace’

    A quote:

    “Every once in a while a prophetic voice is raised in the midst of crisis and chaos. It cuts through the walls of indifference, neglect, and just plain ignorance, and exposes the heart of the issue …. The voice of the World-Friend, Adi Da, which speaks to us through [Not-Two Is Peace] addresses none other than the issue of our collective survival”.

    …… ERVIN LASZLO, Author, President, Club of Budapest

    Can’t do better than that.

    Take or leave.


    Very sad to hear about the fire fighters who lost their lives in Arazona.

  • 07/01/2013
    LONDON (AP) — Unemployment across the 17 European Union countries that use the euro hit another all-time high in May at 12.1%, official data showed Monday.

    I believe the riots will begin soon – Summer is going to be hot and people are going to get antsy, crazy, the pent up rage will unleash its fury… I expect to see cities on fire with martial law declared in some – as the situation spins out of control.

    Were we shocked in 1992 when South Los Angeles erupted over Rodney King? Just wait, that was nothing.

    Still, I keep waiting for TPTB to act in some major way…

  • @ wildwoman, thanks, I wasn’t sure about that one either until you posted. :D

    @ Lidia, thanks for the direction. Wait, you can write like that from a post-op hospital bed? Dayum, you sound strong and healthy! :)

    Daniel says: “now what”?

    Daniel said: I am of the opinion that all dialog post-acceptance of NTE is manifestly commiserative.

    Now What?

    What can we do while we wait
    And our minds discombobulate?
    Once we’ve gone through
    All the things we can do,
    We’re left to commiserate.

  • Dairyman Dave, I figured you were out until the work eased up. Thanks for letting us know how you are faring in your neck of the woods. A friend (in the livestock business) sent me this article

    While the article deals with prices a lot the significant statement that my friend and I both noted is this This tight supply scene makes the delayed start to the 2013-14 corn crop very significant. Processors and feeders can’t consume what has not been harvested yet. “Even if we have a massive new crop coming, it does nothing for usage until it is off the field. And this story is the same for soybean supplies and processing plants,” Kennedy said.

    Hot, cold, wet, dry, farmers can cope with most of that IF it is predictable and stable. We will see less and less of that.

    Btd, YES

  • @ Artleads

    OK, it’s easy and simple.

    I wasn’t being tricky. Some people do find it hard to understand. I was offering to help, if anyone wanted. I learned that stuff about forty years ago and understood it in about fifteen minutes from reading an article in a journal. That youtube video is not a very good explanation, imo.

    I looked at others (on the same video link) beside Lovelock, and those were sometimes complex. Lovelock’s suggesting that Earth would or could need human intelligence down the line, a bit complex, is probably moot by now. The video made at age 90 did have him smiling like a cherub throughout, although it was done recently.

    In my estimation, Lovelock became more and more cranky, and is now somewhat senile. He’s always been prone to making bizarre statements, his latest position as a fracking enthusiast being an example

    Since you post these links, I figure you have an interest in us discussing them. If not, I won’t bother responding to them.

    I’m willing to discuss anything with anybody, but it’s not possible to discuss off topic complex issues here, especially given the two comment rule, that’s why I suggested the NTE Forum, re Daisyworld.

    Moderation and commonsense seem (today) like the best approach to NTE. Although (and perhaps, because,)we understand little, we might manage better by just relying on old truths–things like the golden rule, not pressing the case… Not jumping off a cliff because maybe we were programed to jump off a cliff all along. I can’t make these sweeping assumptions. Why not just try to avoid doing the obviously stupid things that make me or others unhappy?

    What we here think or say or do has no great relevance to what happens. We have no power or influence to determine what happens. We are a tiny insignificant fraction of the environmental movement, itself a small minority fringe in terms of global politics.
    Of course we can initiate radical or original ideas, which filter outward, but it’s already too late for that. If that was going to work it should have and would have a long time ago.

    99.9999% of people are into social politics, concerning social issues. They do not comprehend that without a viable ecology, that is, a viable biosphere, there are NO PEOPLE. Period. That’s where we are headed. Collapsing biosphere. Mass extinction event.

    One point of consideration. Of all the issues of collapse, including un-survivable weather and nuclear radiation, the worst and most urgent problem to me is what humans will do to make matters worse.

    The situation, as I see it, is intractable. There is nothing that can be done. Gail gives an excellent example re Robert Scribbler, whom, imho, is a deluded man. If you re-write ‘reality’, then of course, everything is, and will be, just fine.

    What Guy strives to do, as I see him, and what others here also do, is to face the reality without flinching, without absolute honesty, in so far as that is humanly possible.

    Albert Bartlett

    @ Ozman

    Yes, I do know all of that.

    Wales is full of people called Jones who like to think they are reincarnated gods and they’d all love to have more idiots like you running around worshipping them.

    Advertise that ADIDAM WASHES WHITER crappy soap powder if you want, but not HERE, and take your petty self-indulgence elsewhere, this is not the place for it.
    If anyone wants to know about Hinduism, google will get them a zillion hits. No more of my time for you.

  • Damn, edit, insert ‘with absolute honesty’.

  • This morning I dumped 5 1/2 inches of rain out of the rain gauge. This evening there is another 4 inches and it’s not done yet. Power went out so this is being sent by tractor power. So far, GW is a blast.

  • U,

    Thanks. I like this guy, and will look him up.

    Albert Bartlett

  • Referred to many, many moons ago on NBL:

    Margaritas ante porcos

    “”Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.”

    “Nolite dare sanctum canibus, neque mittatis margaritas vestras ante porcos, ne forte conculcent eas pedibus suis, et conversi disrumptam vos””

    Ripley: Commiseration also seems like a childish lack of acceptance of MN’s plans, crying over that fact that she didn’t do things the way we wanted.

    That’s dualism. Non-dualism would be that the “commiseration” itself is an integral part of “Thusness”/”Suchness” (Google it if you wish) – like everything else.

    Extinguishing life was our mission as humans, we should be proud and happy that we fulfilled our mission,

    It’s hubris to imagine that we have a “mission”, anymore than bees have a “mission” to build a honeycomb, or that termites have a “mission” to build a termite mound, or spiders (the web-building variety) to build a web.

    Kathy Cassandra: Here is what matters folks – feelings matter.

    That’s so because the ancient lizard-brain is the boss, and the newcomer monkey-brain is the chauffeur. Albeit in our case a dangerously capable chauffeur.

    we don’t know for a worm – all that squiggling when cut by a shovel

    If it’s any consolation, the two parts can generate the missing portions, making two whole worms.

    preventing new humans from entering a world

    Now that’s not kosher with biological imperatives. Hence all organisms are hardwired by evolution against it. In this case, the monkey-brain has to override the lizard brain – something very hard to do.

    Don’t even know how to hold an effing gold plated shovel properly.

    The folks in the picture include a Major General, a full General and a Colonel. Although the colonel’s birds do not show clearly, the light blue trousers of the Army dress blues indicate non-flag rank.

    At one time the blues were the standard uniform in the field for the Army & Cavalry. Most personnel in the field in the Wild West kept the blouse rolled up in the saddlebags, and the trousers, exposed to the sun became light blue. Generals did not ride quite as much in the field, so their trousers did not fade. At military formations the contrast was striking, so it was made regulation.

    I put my dress blues in a carton on the porch for collection by the Fresno Rescue Mission a few years back. It still had Captain’s epaulets because I had never worn them as a Major, Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel. And it never got to matching trouser colour rank.

    And to anyone justifying suicide as reducing the burden on others, it should include first discharging any obligations to others, and then choosing a method where others will not have the trouble of disposing of the carcass, or to go looking for the missing person.

    A vat of sulphuric acid would leave only gold fillings and cholesterol gallstones. I don’t know about titanium prostheses and methyl methacrylate cement. But it would still involve disposal of the contents of the vat.

    In orthodox Hinduism, anyone not born a Hindu is an outcast, as in the other ancient tradition to really be a Jew, one has to be born a Jew. However tradition has it that the latter accepted the Pharaoh’s magicians who defected to the Israeli side at the time of the exodus, and the non-Aryan people of South India, the Dravidians, are very much accepted as Hindus by the orthodox. I myself am half-Dravidian, and since the Dravidians are a Negroid race, it is not too much of a stretch to call myself a mulatto.

    Most traditions originating in India have it that the teacher will appear when the student is ready. An illustration of this concept is the tale of Avadhuta, also known as Dattatreya (Datta, the son of – one of the seven cosmic sages – Atri). He had 24 gurus, including such creatures as a wasp, a mosquito, a spider, a loon, etc. which guided him to enlightenment. For those advanced enough to be receptive to the message, there is no dearth of teachers.

  • Empire continues apace – Barack Obama selling globalization and the American way to sub-Saharan Africa:

    “Access to electricity is fundamental to opportunity in this age. It’s the light that children study by, the energy that allows an idea to be transformed into a real business. It’s the lifeline for families to meet their most basic needs, and it’s the connection that’s needed to plug Africa into the grid of the global economy,” he said.

  • You cannot undercut Chinese wage rates unless you have a reliable electricity grid.

    Just imagine, 20 years from now there will be shopping malls, fast-food restaurants, hotels, motels, factories dotting the landscape, and motorways linking every African mega-city.

    Very few people or large mammals, of course.

  • Yikes Dave – that is a LOT of rain and I am sure it is creating all sorts of problems for you. We are wetter than usual this year by far which for us means finally having a year with about the right amount of rain and most everything in the garden appreciates it. However some plants that usually struggle are growing so fast they are over runing others other. In other words I spaced planting for the usual drought and got what in NYS would be normal rain.

    Didn’t see anything about Snowden making a statement on Google News – found it on Zero Hedge
    Edward Snowden Issues Statement From Moscow, Slams Obama
    Submitted by Tyler Durden on 07/01/2013 18:08 -0400

    Via Wikileaks:

    Statement from Edward Snowden in Moscow

    One week ago I left Hong Kong after it became clear that my freedom and safety were under threat for revealing the truth. My continued liberty has been owed to the efforts of friends new and old, family, and others who I have never met and probably never will. I trusted them with my life and they returned that trust with a faith in me for which I will always be thankful.

    On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic “wheeling and dealing” over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

    This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me.

    For decades the United States of America have been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.

    In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

    I am unbowed in my convictions and impressed at the efforts taken by so many.

    Edward Joseph Snowden

    Monday 1st July 2013

  • Rob…my bad for assuming everyone has the same delicately calibrated snarkometer that I do. For the record, I lost hope and came by this nickname some time ago!

  • With thanks to Mike Sosebee for his contribution, I’ve posted a new guest essay. It’s by Sherry Ackerman, and it’s here.

  • @ Gail:

    oops, I should have known…

    @ Robin:

    If you just tie a cinder block around your neck and jump into a deep lake/ocean/sea/gulf, that will do. And, leave a note so nobody looks for you. Even better if you could jump into a volcano!

    @ Artleads:

    On moderation and commonsense:

    Environmental activism and just plain old anti-government activism has always had mostly the unwanted disaffected leftists (the have-nots) in their ranks. But, as collapse awareness has caught on, it seemed more and more educated and privileged folks began really coming to terms with collapse in its various forms (environmental, economic, social). So, the left-wing privileged were buying land, doing permaculture and forming intentional communities while the right-wing privileged were building bunkers and forming militias. The unaffiliated have-nots (like me) just wander around aimlessly, taking up space, waiting for TPTB to make their next move. None are really very big on moderation or commonsense.

    So you have the classic environmental activists, the anti-govt activists, the unplugged and the deranged. I would assume TPTB are quite happy with the current landscape. The 99% are mostly happy just getting their daily dose of “The Bachelor” so there really is no threat to TPTB. I’m sure they noticed the OWS movement and they were relieved to see there was nothing to worry about!

    IMO, if you accept NTE, what use have you for moderation? I would expect nothing more than extreme behavior from these folks!

  • Rob I accept NTE. I stay at home, garden, raise chickens, read and post comments, attempt to avoid insults, try to educate others, obey speed limits, pay taxes (don’t owe any Federal but in AL low income is no barrier to taxation). I don’t attend rallies. I sign petitions sometimes on the web. I rarely send them on to others. I kill squash bugs whenever I can.

    Is this the kind of extreme behavior that you are talking about. I suppose it is extreme to buy all your clothes on an annual trip to Goodwill. I suppose it is extreme to not have air conditioning. Yep, I am clearly manifesting extreme behavior. Only thing is that is exactly how I lived before I accepted NTE. So perhaps it is odd lifestyles (for Americans) that leads to accepting NTE. But I know others who live similarly who don’t except NTE so that doesn’t work.

    Seems to me that some of us come with weak denial programs. Mine manifested itself when I was a teen volunteering in a Nursing Home for poor people. I observed, I cared, and I decided that sometimes death was preferable to life. One man of 34 had lost his legs right up at the hip at age 17. In a time when prosthetics were not so good, he could not be fit with any, nor did he have enough leg to be able to sit in a wheel chair. He had tried suicide but was stopped. So there he was for 17 more years laying in bed enjoying his life – NOT. Did my experiences there knock some of the denial program out of me, or was there something in me that was different. At any rate denial is working overtime in the world and only a few can see through it. Since denial is so important for people who don’t want to admit they are mortals, they feel the need to shut up the few that aren’t in denial. That can be done by labeling – extreme, crazy, deluded, apocalyptic, doomers, etc. But none of that changes the reality that is in place already due to positive feedback loops.

    Some of us wish to go down with eyes wide open, others with hopium to the last minute. (Others just get drunk)