Looking For Loopholes

by Andrew Anselmo

If you have read or seen Guy McPherson, Dmitry Orlov, John Michael Greer, James Howard Kunstler, Richard Heinberg, Chris Martenson, James Hansen; seen the film “What A Way To Go: Life At the End Of Empire”, or spoken at length with anyone else who has brought up the issues of Peak Oil, environmental degradation, rising CO2 levels, the melting of the Arctic, release of methane from the tundra and clathrates, you know the score. We are in for one helluva ride, and it most likely will be unpleasant. The range of estimated unpleasantness varies, as to the source, but all in all, the current way of life (at least for Americans, or those accustomed to the traditional American automobile-centered way of life) will change drastically in the next years and decades. We wind up with either Kunstler’s World Made By Hand, Greer’s Star’s Reach, or simply ‘lights out’, as put forth by Guy McPherson. The Popular Mechanics/Star Trek future we’ve all been told isn’t going to happen, at least certainly not for a majority of the world’s population. If you need any convincing, check Professor Albert Bartlett’s YouTube talks on the exponential function. Any system predicated on infinite growth cannot last forever.

The one solution that might, as posited by Guy and others (just might!) save some shred of humanity is an economic collapse, brought on by the collapse of industrial civilization. Luckily(!), this does seem possible; Nicolas Taleb, Jeremy Grantham, and a small but growing host of others in the financial world (as well as those above) see that the infinite growth paradigm cannot be sustained, and at some point, the music will stop, and things will get, as they say, “interesting.”

Some posit that ‘free energy’ (as mentioned in the film ‘Thrive’) will save our bacon, but as noted by Rob Hopkins in his excellent review, this doesn’t solve the underlying problem. In the film ‘Thrive’, it mentions that the lack of energy is what is an impediment to most of the world being better. I admit, I once thought energy was at the core of our problems too. But Hopkins’ review at Transition Culture correctly vilifies this, as have so many others — we’ve had free energy and we haven’t done anything good with it in the long term. The film also mentions that we really don’t have scarcity, and this is ridiculous. The film tends to ignore climate change, and the long list of peer-reviewed literature on its reality.

Thrive’s main ‘deus ex machina’ is the possibility of free energy, but this tends to put the cart before the horse. Before implementing these technologies, society would need to evolve first, and not expect free energy, anti-gravity, easy space travel, or any other technological fix (even renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind) to save us. In the end, we will still have an infinite growth paradigm, and this is the essence of what is killing us. As clever as we are, it may be that we are just a tad too clever and rapacious, and Homo sapiens may be just a evolutionary cul-de-sac, due to this very trait. Even economic collapse, which might save the world, will still leave us, with our genetic predisposition towards more growth. Our clever brains, matched with our more base instincts to consume, expand, and populate will lead us right back to where we started. This may be difficult, as our fossil fuels will be practically gone, and going back to a steady state world will be our only option — using the power of the sun and its derivatives, and human/animal labor. If we were to discover (although unlikely) ‘free energy’ in an energy constrained future, this would simply ‘kick the can down the road’, until some other resource limit would stop us.

Of course, many would want to find a way to have our life continue onwards. Hot showers, electricity, good dentistry, ease of access to information are all things that make life pleasant, at least in the physical sense. Industrial civilization has some nice perks, but it tends to destroy everything else in the process. Not such a great tradeoff.

Like a scholar going through the Talmud, my thought was to find a loophole in the phrase, “terminate industrial civilization,” so we could continue to have some of these things, without destroying the planet. Who doesn’t want hot showers and good dentistry? The phrase ‘industrial civilization’ is linked my mind (and possibly to yours) to smokestacks, neat gadgets, near-instant communication and of course, inexorable, onward and upward growth. If it was possible, however, to have some sort of technology that was highly regulated, or in steady state — could this save us? Could we exist with technology, but without growth, without expanding? This flies in the face of everything we know about the way most of us work as individuals, and as a society. One might think that we’d actually have to quite literally evolve genetically to a “homo sapiens stabilis,” a species more attuned to longer range, steady-state thinking.

The mutation that gave rise to our greedy and ever-consuming nature is the kind that pushed out steadier thought processes. So, what does this mean for us? Although there may be some outliers, it may be that genetically, as a species, we are currently incapable of holding ourselves back.


Andrew Anselmo was trained as a mechanical engineer and has worked on Wall Street in financial derivatives and in the renewable energy sector on solar and wind systems. He tries to avoid cognitive dissonance as much as possible.

McPherson’s latest essay for the Good Men Project was posted today. It’s here.

Comments 163

  • I hope Guy considers this my second post for today. I slept, woke up, and ate.


    Everyone will be challenged by what’s coming in the decades ahead. Our morals and ethics will be overturned time and time again as the environmental circumstances interact with cultural and technological changes.

    We all suffer together through this rough patch. Have faith. There is no good reason not to have simple hope and push on best you can. Please stick in there. Each of us either continues to adapt else gets left behind. Your choice. Never to late, until it truly is.

    Take Care.

  • @ piddles, melissa, and misc. morocco bama sock puppets

    When did you EVER have anything interesting or worth reading or worthwhile to say on this blog ?
    All that your names represent is petty spite, malice, hatred, the reflection of your own unpleasant mentality. What horrible lives you must have. Same boring cowardly trolls. Never even an interesting link.

    @ dweebus

    Nice to see you around !

    @ Friedrich K.

    That’s a surprising compliment. Thank you. I can be considerably more gracious than that, but Thanatos whatsit has not earned it, has he.

    I still want to know how he concludes that the elephants in Africa were not eaten whilst the mammoths and mastodons were. Co-evolution isn’t an adequate explanation.

    Not that it matters much.

    Whatever happened, we are where we are, and we will not be where we are for very much longer.

    mufflewhatsit = techno-utopian fantasist

    @ TIAA

    I always enjoy your writing, it’s kind of oracular, like reading tea leaves, I find pleasing quirky surprises :-)

  • “For a bit there, the aliens must have been pretty worried :P

    To the fiddle :D”

    All I can say to that is, NIKTO BARADA SANTO! :)

  • The learning curve for NTE could easily be considered the steepest ever conceived, for we must first crawl out of a very deep subjective hole, only to reach the zenith in an objective abyss.

  • So after years of therapy and 12 step work, I was finally ready to conclude that nothing another person says or does could bother me unless it was ringing some kind of bell inside of me. muffleupalus is ringing my bells.

    What is inside of me that responds?

    1.Problem: When someone says I’m crazy or ignorant, I feel insulted. I do not like being perceived that way.
    Answer: People have opinions, and will sometimes think I’m crazy or ignorant. Sometimes I think they are too. Sometimes I am right, sometimes wrong. Sometimes, I’m crazy! ha! So, who isn’t? Problem solved and the bell stops ringing.

    2. Problem: I feel uncomfortable when people behave in ways i see as disrespectful. I’m conflict averse. When anger is expressed as blame, i get scared.
    Answer: This is operant conditioning: too much verbal abuse and shrieking going on in my childhood home. I get triggered. I feel fear. Luckily, I’m not actually in any danger whatsoever from angry people on the internet. i can recognize my feelings and what’s going on. I can react, or ignore, as I wish. Problem solved and the bell stops ringing.

    No. 3 is more difficult for me.
    Problem: I feel frustrated, and even angry, when people suggest “solutions” to our global dilemma when I have already researched the solutions and realized they are either a) too little, too late (i.e.; political solutions); b) a great idea but won’t change the situation (i.e.; permaculture); c) utterly impossible & missing the mark (i.e.: smart grids). I seem to expect – as Thanatos Sunbum pointed out over at the last post – that everyone will have done all the research i have, connected the dots as i have and come to an identical solution. Furthermore, this is “supposed” to be my refuge from such frustrations, so i feel threatened when the soothing (in)sanity of utter doom gets ruffled by ripples of extreme optimism.
    Solution: 100 people will read the same research and come to different conclusions. The widest possible diversity of opinion produces the best possible discussion, even when that is irritating. People have every right to deal with this information in any way they can — and they will anyway. (As long as they don’t choose to deliberately kill of 90% of humanity while “dealing” with it.) Since extinction is “new” there is no “best way” to deal with it, as folks here often point out. Who the heck do I think I am trying to preserve some “acceptable discourse” on this blog — the great mother knows that is what’s gotten us into this mess. Policing the boundaries of the sayable kills community, as it’s killing 200 species a day and all of us. What’s the big deal anyway, the dominant discourse here is NTHE and that is not likely to change.

    4. Problem: I really have a preference for rational discussion and for emotions laid squarely on the table and openly acknowledged.
    Solution: That doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. As if I’m always capable of that! Please! :)

    5. No problem: Thanks to the 2 post rule, no one dominates here; no one can.

    My current approach to NTHE: Mourn and weep and rage. Take pleasure in everything and every moment I can. Take good care of myself, so I can do my best to care for others and because I’m worth it! Slowly and intentionally disconnect as quickly as I can from the machine. Come to NBL for the companionship of the like-minded. Sew and plant and harvest and cook and preserve and eat. Remember to be compassionate with myself and others. Control what I can, accept what i can’t, work hard to know the difference. Stay political, and stay informed, because we still have the power to make a difference in how we go, even though we’re past our best before date.

  • Time…it’s running out. Many years ago, I somehow intuited that the end would come during my my lifetime. We let everything get too complicated. We’ve murdered too many people. Ignorant psychopaths and their mongrel attack dogs demanded that we put our precious spiritual time aside, and most of us did, without hesitation. What was all this time for? Not for killing! Not for becoming rich and powerful! We wasted it all.

  • Sorry KK, that’s KLAATU BARRADA NIKTO! I hope that makes everything clear.

    (I can be a real Duceldorf! Please forgive my 3rd post)

  • First
    @Robin Datta
    ”preaching veganism to the hyenas
    Excellent. Hilarious.
    I experienced a minor epiphany with that, Robin. Thank you very much. Something I can take into other areas of my life.

    I probably don’t understand half of what you say in your posts. Am I correct in thinking you are explaining some Hindu philosophy? The half I do understand I enjoy as poetry and poetic abstractions I don’t mind pondering. You so often provide such a different and refreshing perspective. Thank you.

    @ Mr. Kling
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (can’t remember who said that) A cheesy documentary on youtube just does not cut it. It will take better evidence than “I saw a light and he saw a light and she saw a light and there was a light” to convince me.

    I like what you say and how you say it. I hope I am not being disrespectful in my following reply to muffeupagus; I’m trying for blunt and straightforward. The last sentence is to be read merely as a conclusion based on available evidence. Let me know.

    @ muffleupagus
    August 20th, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    ”Definitely not a troll, I’m simply seeing very poor reasoning and black and white reasoning. I’ve thought out most of what’s talked about here, and tried to provide some insight. It seems that those who are dead set in their delusions will continue on.

    You have not provided any insight at all. You have asked some questions, presented some one-liners as if they meant something and you have made a pile of assertions regarding technology without providing any evidence to support them. Perhaps you notice posts here are full of links to (mostly) credible sources. Neither have you provided any actual critical thinking. You have not pointed out any fallacies, provided no logical deconstruction or supported your vague understanding of how things will play out. You have not addressed energy depletion, financial collapse, provided any evidence to dispute the science of climate disruption or provided anything of substance. If you ask about creating artificial biospheres then dismiss that it has been done and failed, then point me to where I can find information regarding the success of Biosphere III or IV or whatever. Not a troll, eh?

    I suspect Guy is unwittingly projecting his own insecurities onto the world, and you’re all failing to see the numerous holes in the reasoning.

    I think Guy is rounding up the best science he can and maybe he has included a lemon or two but analyze the science and show us it is merely “insecurities” being projected. If we are failing to see the numerous holes in the reasoning then why are you not providing insightful, clear analysis of these fallacies you claim to see?

    Two post limit thing, though. I’m just going to sit back and witness the group psychosis on this board. It’s rather interesting.

    Again, an unsubstantiated accusation with nothing to back it up. Give us something to work with here if we are so misinformed, misguided and psychologically blinded. You can’t.

    I’m not a true troll, I’m genuinely curious to see evidence to support the claim that NTE is underway. As is, there is serious logical fallacies, half truths, terrible misunderstands, and a lack of imagination, mixed with a warped view on technological progress. Your choice to project your own madness onto the world, but do realize that you’re likely causing more harm than good to yourself and those who care for you.

    Not a true troll. Above you denied being a troll. So what then? Troll Lite? Semi-troll? Quasi-troll? Adolescent troll? You sound like an arrogant adolescent who knows it all but is unable to set anything of substance down where it can be dealt with because, of course, you don’t know it all. You probably know nothing or you would have more of substance to offer and grown-up logical arguments for us to look at.

    I addressed every one of your concerns (at least the ones I could understand) in a clear point-by-point manner complete with links and book titles. So you do the same then. You can’t. You have not and cannot point out specifically the ”serious logical fallacies, half truths, terrible misunderstands”[sic]. Give us a list which is well reasoned and supported. Provide some real substance and reference to actual, practical technological progress which can be brought to bear on our problems within the next decade or two. Bring it, please.

    As far as curious about the evidence, it abounds but I’m pretty sure you just don’t want to look at it and you are certainly not critiquing it for us in any useful manner. What do you want? What kind of science are you waiting for? You shoot down the evidence of climate change, dieing oceans, etc, etc, and extoll the virtues of a techno-utopia but give us no inkling or evidence about how we can bring that about in an energy depleted world undergoing financial collapse facing enormous environmental crises.

    Give us some counter-evidence and some useful logic. So far all you have done is strut around bleating and making empty claims. You are not genuinely curious at all. You reject what is on offer and provide nothing in return. Give us some substance. How are we going to make it into space with all our symbionts? Tell us how to engineer artificial environments and where it is being successfully accomplished? Tell us how to fuel these grandiose efforts when soon there will be not enough energy to fuel mundane existence? Tell us.

    I’m pretty sure you are not Troll Lite; I’m thinking Troll full grown.

  • It seems that every couple of weeks some proud freshman barges into our post-agency dissertation, because they are lost and can’t find the bathroom, whereby, eliciting a bunch of steely eyed glares from us denizens. And with their hopeful ideals swirling around their nascence, which they’ve yet to grasp was laboriously debunked years ago, we impolitely suggest they go home and do their own research. But is often the case, one of two things happens next, they in way too many words, just end up flipping us the bird, or they defecate themselves because they realize the door locked behind them.

  • Thank you, Daniel, for that laugh out loud moment! Much needed and appreciated.

  • I read the blog everyday, post rarely.

    The fact that the poisonous fish is a mentally ill individual is of no consequence. The fact that the poisonous fish is isolated, desperate, and socially isolated is of no consequence.

    Of course there are those who would seek to distract and defame.

    I am of the opinion that we are all going down and that the end is nearer than anyone can imagine.

  • @Daniel Yeah, what she (Wildwoman) said!

  • Okay, screw the two post limit BS. People start flinging around a whole pile of mindless accusations, and I’m going to defend myself.

    I’d ask that anyone who flings around the “troll” label please fully qualify the term, as it’s so damned ambiguous and subjective that it seems to lose all meaning in my mind. A “real troll”, as I put it, would be someone who purposefully enters an online discussion for the sake of getting laughs out of making people upset. I am not attempting to do this, AT ALL! I’m “not a true troll”, as I put it, because people do tend to get offended by what I say. I get this label a lot for simply calling out poor reasoning.

    My mind looks at some of Guys work, and instantly notices that he’s choosing to take in the most extreme sources to highlight, and even then he fudges the conclusions to match is preconceived notions. It’s not scientific in the least. It’s confirmation bias. Everyone in this psychotic group seems to be patting each other on the back for doing it. I’m not sure how a sane person can’t see this. There’s so much going on at once, and you’re all choosing to see the worst, and deny the best. It’s ridiculous and at least partially psychotic.

    I’m being called a “freshman”, yet have been in online discussion groups surrounding many of these issues, and many more that have to do with “conspiracy theories”, for about a decade now. I’ve seen many delusional, and psychotic, black and white thought processes. Then when someone with some sanity calls them out, they get labeled with all sorts of things, in an absolute way. People have shoved terms onto me, and words into my mouth, that I’m not even remotely pointing towards.

    Techno, utopia? Are you freaking kidding me? Did you not read between the lines of my posts? We’re not on a sustainable course at all. We could easily have a collapse of industry sometime this century. I asked how the hell this led to NTE and people started to flip. It’s as if you are all taking in the worst elements of various tidbits of information, and choosing to focus on these, which then makes the overall theme of the site, NTE, seem plausible. Over time you get further into the psychosis, and start saying it’s inevitable. This is not a sane way of thinking.

    There are so many damned possibilities for the future. I don’t think in a linear way at all. I don’t see absolutes, or one path leading to another. I see an incredible amount of variables, all interacting and evolving alongside each other. I see that the very worst scenarios lead to NTE. Those are basically this huge methane release causing a global fireball, –very unlikely–, and the venus hypothesis. Everything else leads to somewhere between our current standards of living and population count, and extinction. There’s practically infinite variations that may come about. Focusing on NTE is absurd, and pathetic.

    Pathy is better than apathy, though. So I’ll give y’all that. Just think you’d be better off realizing the problems are more in your lack of considering the wide variation between this all.

    Let me give you an example. I’m fully aware that the financial system is not “rational” from a common sense, or good-intending understanding. I’m also aware that it actually does make sense, and is strategic, towards the political-controllers, and wealth-class. I realize that wealth is being funneled from the people into the hands of the few. I see no good reason to think this will always be the case.

    I see that our current political system we live in is a plutocracy, and that the science is being manipulated, but am willing to concede it may be manipulated to show extremes on both sides of the coin, at least in some instances. I see that the current systems seem to be quite unsustainable, and lead to some form of “collapse”, but have no real understanding of the intensity, pace, or timeline, as does nobody else on this site, for real. There are far too many wild cards, and damage-control mechanisms in place. The USD seems as if it can essentially be propped up by the US military might until it’s adequately stressed beyond it’s capabilities, and that’s not happening anytime soon.

    I see that there are shennanigans, and “natural limitations”, but deny that “infinite growth” ever existed. It’s a false argument. There has been up and down cycles all throughout our history. We only went exponential due to industrialization, and cheap oil. Yes, the cheap oil is gone, but “depleting all our resources” isn’t happening anytime soon, and I challenge anyone here to show data showing otherwise. What will happen before we run out of oil? The EROEI will drop below being economically viable, and that’s still a while out yet. What will happen before that? We’ll be using up more tar sands and further exacerbating climate disruptions. What will happen before that? Innovation.

    Look, there’s going to be collapse. It’s going to be good for us. We’re not all going to die in the first swoop. This whole “seven billion” argument is moot. We don’t need seven billion not to go extinct. We just need two (eh, a bit more). In the process of collapse, our strategies will shift. The things we value will change. That means the culture change. Cultural changes come before social and political changes. Just as we flow through cycles. Incredible cultural changes have already happened over the years I’ve been on this earth, and no I’m not some “arrogant adolescent”. I’m approaching middle age.

    I simply see no reason to conclude that NTE is in the works for the vast majority of the scenarios which may play out. I see plenty of people being “unlucky” and being stupid, and not adapting. I see many people dying. I see radical macrosocial actions taking place when it’s no longer an option to sit on the sidelines. We all feel the time for sitting around is long gone, but the people don’t yet feel that on the whole. They will in time. It’s not reasonable to conclude that because people are currently not doing something, they never will. It’s not reasonable to conclude that we’re done for yet, unless it’s truly a sudden runaway global warming event.

    Some of the simulations are saying 6 degrees or better, most are not. Guy is flipped out, and fudging some of the calculations. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to say. It’s not worth it for me to point them all out, it’s very obvious, and annoying to see. Off the top of my head, he says 350.org is a joke because a couple of agencies speak of lower numbers needed to stabilize the climate. He quotes two sources, gives their range, and says it’s “substantially lower” and it’s complete bullshit. There was something like 330-450, and 400-550 range. The second is above, the first is barely below on the low range. Bullshit. One example of many.

    All I’m saying, is that it’s not a “techno utopia” to realize that we’ve got game changers in place this time around. We’ve got the ability to communicate globally in nanoseconds, and have vast libraries worth of information at our fingertips. Once the crisis is here and we must address it ( I know I know, it’s here, but I mean when the people can actually see it with their own eyes and have no doubt), we’ll be seeing insane leaps and radical changes sweeping the globe. That’s not “techno utopia”, that’s a big duh to me.

    Again, not all kumbaya, mass deaths, breakdowns, collapse. Things fall into new orders of organization, new values, strategies, designs, and implementations. Everything changes rapidly, and many, perhaps most can’t keep up, THOUGH this will be a process that plays out over many years, and so will be manageable.

    Alright, I’m done. If you want sources, go talk to someone else. I don’t base any of my thoughts off any one source. This is many years of thinking, observing, researching, and chatting with many different people on many different forums and in person. That the solutions may not exist, scares you. Fine. Be scared. I’m done being scared. I see no good reason to think NTE is set in stone. Is it a possibility? Sure. Not even close to inevitable.

    Even if we bottleneck a dozen times over, and there’s only a million left living in extreme conditions, what that will end up looking like, perhaps 50-100 years in the future, will seem “techno utopia” or whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean, and yet most everyone will be dead, and the earth will seem shit. That’s what I’m looking at in some of the more extreme scenarios. Not NTE, or lala land.

  • @Kirk Hamilton,
    Friedrich Kling,
    & any others interested in aliens & poetry

    The Edgar Lee Masters animation reminds me mostly of the actor William Sanderson in Deadwood, but also bears nearly as close a resemblance to Tracey Walter in Repo Man. I think the clip below will clear up all of this UFO business once and for all (again).

    @Kirk Hamilton
    Thanks for the William Burroughs clip. If you’re “innarested”, the Terminal Pictures channel on Youtube has quite an interesting set of clips based on Nova Express, mostly old films set to readings of parts of the book by the master himself…with some narration provided by Phil Proctor of Firesign Theater and others.

    I’ll put a starter link to the Nova Express clips in a second post (to avoid moderation, of course…which reminds me that the late Dr. Leary once remarked “Take big bites…moderation is for monks.”)

    @ all’a y’all
    Unlike Rob, I haven’t yet done all that I would like to do, but I do think too many folks here are whistlin’ past the graveyard that soon needs to include something like 6 billion or more humans if HS is to have any chance of squeezing through the bottleneck that looms ahead.

    And while any technology has downside potential, especially when deployed in societies controlled by what Hunter Thompson used to call “greedheads”, doesn’t it make sense that the 2000 or so humans that survived the previous bottleneck used at least half of the classic simple machines to advantage themselves, viz the lever, wedge, and inclined plane ?

    If you really believe that these three plus fire were among our Original Sins, what are you still doing here on The Beach rather than committing either suicide or acts of resistance so intense as to risk your demise ? I can’t argue against the case for a quiet suicide, but please at least consider the Hannibal Lecter option of “having a greedhead for lunch”.


  • Fuku-ed Tic-Tock

    Just caught some breaking Fuku news on Reuters. No full article, the caption went.

    “Japan raises severity of latest Fukushima leak to Level 3 (‘serious’ radiation ‘incident’) on international scale”

    A day back it was at Level 1. Quoting from the post linked below.

    Japan’s Nuclear Regulation Authority classified the leak as a “level 1” incident, the lowest on an eight-point international scale. A spokesman confirmed that it is the first time the NRA has attached a so-called INES rating to an incident at Fukushima since the government-linked watchdog was established last September.

    When It Rains, It Pours Radiation: Fukushima Plant Springs Worst Leak In History


    Another interesting bit in one of the articles at Reuters. Quoting from the post linked below.

    After 10 hours, a worker in that proximity to the leak would develop radiation sickness with symptoms including nausea and a drop in white blood cells.

    So, how are we going to fix this again? Oh yeah, the inverted igloo. Might as well call in Mothra. I am assuming that since Mothra has defeated Godzilla a couple of times, maybe Mothra is immune to radioactivity in some way. Just a thought like the inverted igloo.

    Wrecked Fukushima storage tank leaking highly radioactive water


    @Kirk ~ Klaatu Barada Nikto ~ When I saw that movie, a couple of years back, I saw the remake not the original. For a moment I smelled hopium and then… back to reality, good cinema.

    @muffleupagus ~ If you are not a troll, which I am personally undecided on, I would make the same suggestion as earlier. Just Run Muff, Run… What a name to pickup though?

    @Lorraine ~ Wow, lovely response.

    P.S. Fuku-ed breaking news now confirmed by Zerohedge also, they have put up a post too. So it was not just mi who saw a red banner on Reuters which seems to be gone now. Sometimes you just don’t know, the brain can be Fuku-ing with you.

    To the fiddle :D

  • @u: I am doing as well as can be expected, thank you for enquiring..
    @wildwoman, thank you for your thoughts, as well.
    I’ve been keeping up with the postings, but chemo brain doesn’t allow me to respond, to anything, with my former mental alacrity. Saturday I drove by myself to the farmers’ market, put the items I bought into the car, then I got in on the passenger’s side. And buckled my seatbelt. And turned to the ‘driver’ to find out why the engine hadn’t turned on.

    Apparently they feel they have to destroy the village to save it. 
    What research I can find is equivocal about chemotherapy doing any good for the type of cancer I have/ had: stage 1a clear cell ovarian. The 5-year progression-free survival and overall survival seem to be in the 80-90% range either way, but the chemo can create long-term bodily mayhem, including causing other cancers. I have been prescribed 3 cycles of Carboplatin and Taxol 3 weeks apart; I underwent one on August 1st and the second is to be next Monday. Much of my hair has fallen out, and so I now have a shaved head and sport Regency-odalisque-style turbans. It would be a charmingly exotic look except for my constantly-dripping nose (nose hairs fall out, too, and one is made aware of their valuable role).

    Obviously this ongoing experience has given me a lot to consider, not just in light of NTE, but in my understanding of how we humans are so deeply affected by context. On Jay Hanson’s Yahoo! Group thread recently he described how running for office changed Who He Was at each step. I feel as though I am being made aware of the same sort of changes on my short but violent trajectory having boarded the Cancer Bus. If my mother were not still alive, I believe I would have refused the chemo. I am as certain of this as I can be. Chemotherapy, generally speaking, is evil; this I have also come to believe..

    I no longer feel like the same person. I’m no longer in control of my body (not that I ever was…) but that’s the least of it: I’m angry and ashamed that I sat and let the medical establishment pump poison into me “just in case” a single cancer cell is “floating around” somewhere, and “just in case” it might work. And it really does feel like poison, while it’s going in and for weeks afterward… weeks being the limit of my reporting period for now. I think this practice (were we to have a future capable of studying its history) would seem to our descendants the way blood-letting seems to us today.

    In my case in particular, there is no evidence I can find that these drugs will help me anymore than would coffee enemas, sacrificing a chicken, or pinning an ex voto to the wall of the Church, with the added distinction that none of these treatments is so corrosive that it dissolves plastic. I’m in the belly of “Scientism” at its worst. Asking questions puts the docs on the defensive, and at the time I made my decision it seemed less awful to undergo the chemo, actually,  than to argue with them about it. 

    The oncologist framed it for me in a very canny way: “WITH the treatment you have an excellent chance of being CURED; a RECURRENCE would be FATAL.”  While these two statements may well be true, it’s made to sound deceptively like the difference between these outcomes—LIFE and DEATH—would be thanks to the chemo, when that’s not the case at all. From what I have been able to find out on my own, studies have said there’s no statistical significance in treatment vs. no treatment in cases like mine. They’re not doing further studies, though, because they can’t find any controls any more: everyone is steered into Taxol treatments whether they work or not. (Another thing that is unsaid is that 70% of oncologists’ salaries come from selling chemo drugs, so when are they ever *not* going to recommend chemo?)

    There’s also a bit of a back story as to why I don’t entirely trust my doc. which is too long for this comment.. Maybe in a day or two I’ll talk about it. I find sustained attention and tasks difficult; apparently there’s a 30% chance that cognitive declines of this sort will be permanent (this according to the book, “Your Brain After Chemo”). Not that your oncologist will tell you this. They’ll say it’s “menopause”… (which is a crock of shit because I was just as menopausal in May and I did not feel like this). Fuck.  

    I am well-aware that both my disease (knock on wood) and my treatments so far are nowhere near as wrenching as those which many others endure with much more grace than I; I’m simply furious at the rail-roading, the condescension, and the lack of transparency and care options.

  • For any William Burroughs aficionados…

    I Yield the Balance of My Time (now there’s a hot “DIY suicide” book title for the Bookstore on the Beach of Doom) to the next distinguished colleague.

  • It’s intriguing to take my cue from the masses, the vast majority of whom are going about their business with no apparent concern. Do they know something I don’t know? What can be expected to change first, and how will the crowds react?

    A clear trend is the tightening of the secretive security state. I suspect the college level people are a tad more concerned than those at HS level. No major sign of alarm, however. The loss of worker bargaining power is causing a little fuss, as in those WalMart strikes, but that is perceived as having next to zero effect. Gas prices go up and down to a degree that distracts us from the nearly $4/gl norm these days. Prices go up on most things, but many have remained flat for the last few years. Patterns of worsening are muted, TV ads abound, retail businesses keep on chugging.

    I wonder what to do amid this throng of normalness. I do introduce NTE once in a while to educated friends. If they read NBL links, they say little or nothing about it, and life goes on.

    But I don’t disparage the seemingly bovine masses; I believe they are responding naturally to the knowledge at their disposal. I also believe that whatever befalls us on NBL will have direct relationship to unfolding of mass circumstances and behaviors.

    To those who wish to avert near, near-term suffering of dear ones, the sudden collapse of civilization is the overwhelming threat. All the challenges to maintaining a level of civilization that the poor, progressives, and poor immigrants, especially, might find survivable can perhaps in the short, short term be met, save one: nuclear radiation.

    It is widely expected that civilization is so cynical, rapacious, thoughtless, desperate that it won’t rise to the challenge to prevent nuclear holocaust. And when did the elite of the elite ever care about anything but making more money and exerting more power? But, as in the time of the Black Death, money and power can do no good against radiation. Some of the PTB will undoubtedly awaken to this fact and attempt to tackle it. So, appealing to the self-interest if TPTB (those who can still be appealed to) might be the best strategy for resistance.

  • This is a repeat of a link I posted before in this thread http://www.tech-pundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Cloud_Begins_With_Coal.pdf?c761ac

    «The information economy is a blue whale economy with its energy uses mostly out of sight. Based on a mid range estimate, the world’s Information Communications Technologies (ICT) ecosystem uses about 1,500 TWh of electricity annually, equal to all the electric generation of
    Japan and Germany combined as much electricity as was used for global illumination in 1985.
    The ICT ecosystem now approaches 10% of world electricity generation. Or in other energy terms – the zettabyte era already uses about 50% more energy than global aviation.
    Reduced to personal terms, although charging up a single tablet or smart phone requires a negligible amount of electricity, using either to watch an hour of video weekly consumes annually more electricity in the remote networks than two new refrigerators use in a year.»

    This is my reason not to overuse/misuse internet (even if I cannot consider the result as a real success story). And it is the reason why I get annoyed with useless messages on a site where so many fellow travelers know what is going on. Patience with trolls is burning coal. I also know there is nothing I can do about it but go off line. I do not have the courage to do it. But things are evolving so fast that the power grid could fail anytime and it will solve that dilemma. The trees are in such a terminal stage here that big branches are falling all over the city, cutting the lines in multiple places and starting fires (not a word in MSM though, how surprising…). One really big storm would devastate the grid and leave us without power for a long time.

    merci beaucoup for being there (for the moment).

  • And furious at myself for not grabbing the emergency brake on the Cancer Bus until I can figure out what the fuck is going on.

  • And furious at myself for not pulling the emergency brake on the Cancer Bus until I could figure out what’s really going on.

  • So.. I’m reluctantly going to Australia on the 7th of September. I have a pit in my stomach on so many levels. I have “googled”‘ so many videos of the Great Barrier Reef and (after viewing ALL of them) I am nauseated by what I’ve seen. To make a long story short… the Reef is SICK. Just look at the video footage… most everything is bleached white! It’s almost like no one is willing to step up and say what’s going on! I feel badly enough that this is going on and more so that I (as an Airline employee) I am flying my ass to the Southern Hemisphere for free. I almost cancelled my trip but as a “semi-regular” to this web site… I knew that the plane would still go with or without me. Call me what you want. We are all doomed and I figured I should take this chance to see a part of the world and it’s ecosystem (what’s left of it) before it’s gone. What do you all think? Would you still go? We are all fucked at this point. That’s what I think.


  • Lidia – several times in your posts here you are saying something very clearly. you want to stop, but are angry and ashamed that you feel like you can’t. honestly, the more I read, the more I hear you saying this, on multiple levels.

    I am going out on a limb here, but I will ask you directly: can you stop the treatments, immediately?

    there is one thing in particular that stops me in my tracks with what you are saying, and that is this:

    “I got in on the passenger’s side. And buckled my seatbelt. And turned to the ‘driver’ to find out why the engine hadn’t turned on.”

    and then you say this:

    “And furious at myself for not pulling the emergency brake on the Cancer Bus until I could figure out what’s really going on.”

    really, very deeply, I think you could be trying to tell yourself something here, something vitally important. you got out of the driver’s seat, and you don’t know why you did. and you want to get back in control.

    I haven’t followed all of your recent posts that may reveal more about your decision to take the treatments. but you are saying something here, right now, and this matters a great deal. all I will say more is, please, please, know that you do have control, and be true to yourself.

  • It looks like I am also going to break the two-post rule. My apologies.

    coffee enemas, sacrificing a chicken, or pinning an ex voto to the wall of the Church

    Hello Lidia,
    I’m relatively new to NBL – have been lurking for a little while and have recently thrown my hat in the ring. I don’t know who you are or where you live or anything about your circumstances so I imagine it may be presumptuous of me to offer unsolicited advice. It is possible you have already been hectored by people suggesting this crazy plan or that bizarre substance so I sincerely apologize in advance if what I about to say merely pisses you off. I am sensitive to that possibility but I’m going to take a flier on this anyway. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest an herbal remedy which actually has been showing promise in controlled cancer trials.

    Extracts of this herb has been shown to have a very significant effect on glioblastoma and in vitro it displays many interesting characteristics including an apparent ability to cut off nutrients and blood from the cancerous cells while at the same time acting as a tonic strengthening surrounding cells. There has not been a lot of research in total but what has been done is positive and promising.

    This herb is Cannabis and the extract is made by grinding the herb finely, soaking it in a volatile solvent (acetone or isopropyl alcohol are probably the best and most readily available). Pour off the liquor through some kind of filter (eg coffee filter to remove plant material). Give the herb another rinse to get every drop of goodness and rig up some kind of press to squeeze out the last drop. Clean the goo off your grinder with the solvent and add it to the batch. Filter that as well then boil off the solvent. Both of these solvents are highly flammable so care must be taken to provide lots of ventilation and have no spark or open flame nearby. Something like a rice cooker works well. Check the boiling points of both solvents and make sure your flame-less, spark-less heat source can raise a pot of water to above the boiling point of the chosen solvent.

    Boiling off that much liquor will take several hours and using something like a small rice cooker will require adding and adding as it boils down. There is no Cannabis smell (but the solvents are odorous) so you might be able to (probably should) do it outside on the patio or balcony or what have you.

    Once you have a dark green thick looking oil which is no longer boiling the temperature must be raised to 100 degrees Celsius (boiling point of water but no hotter so you do not evaporate the extract) for a few minutes (until it stops boiling again) in order to drive the aqua from the oil. This is important; water in the oil will cause problems.

    A handy way to dispense the oil is from a syringe. Syringes for delivering medicine to a baby or for a person with a broken jaw to suck pablum through are available at most drug stores. Fill up the syringes while the oil is still warm and runny after the water is removed, cap them, leave one out for immediate use and store the rest in the food compartment of a refrigerator (not the freezer). When it cools it is fairly thick and pretty sticky. Start out with a blob half the size of a piece of long grain rice four times per day orally gradually increasing over two or three weeks (to get used to the side effect – euphoria) to blobs the full size of rice four times per day. Rub it on your gums or put it on a tiny piece of thin paper (eg cigarette paper) and just swallow it. It might be an idea to put a little of the raw herb aside for smoking or vaporizing for immediate relief of nausea. A pound of good quality herb will make enough for approximately three months of treatment and require one and a half or two gallons of solvent.

    Cannabis indica will tend to make you sleepy and cause you to want to rest a lot which I am sure you are doing already but rest is crucial for any healing. If you need to stay a little more alert Cannabis sativa should be a bit more uplifting. If you have no choice take what you can get. Organic of course is better but again, take what you can get.

    I have personal experience of acquaintances using the oil topically for skin cancer with great success. One person who I procured for was damned near dieing from the chemotherapy she was receiving but reports from her family indicated the oil strengthened her, reduced her nausea, improved her spirits and lifted her depression and reduced her cognitive impairment. I don’t know how it turned out in the end – I lost touch with them for reasons I am unclear of – but at least she felt better. I have no personal experience otherwise.

    Whether or not it does anything to your particular form of cancer it certainly will not cause any harm and I can almost guarantee it will at least make you feel better. Of course there are many considerations with this method – legality, availability, expense, personal attitude and values, safe location for cooking off the solvent, etc. – but I humbly offer you this information and, again, sincerely apologize if I have violated any boundary or intruded where I am not welcome. I simply could not restrain myself; this substance has helped so many in so many ways.

    I will leave it to you to do your own research and find out for yourself whatever medical results are being reported. Search cannabis and cancer together and start sifting. Detailed instructions and videos for the oil production process are easily found plus testimonies galore and time lapse videos of skin cancers disappearing. NOTE: Do not attempt using butane or bottled camp-stove propane. Not only is this far too dangerous and fails to give a complete extract but these substances have been known to be laced with capsicum (hot peppers) and will render your oil useless. As well PURE naphtha (camp-stove white gas) is often suggested as a solvent but it is hard to find, at least around here, and the stuff at the hardware store has anti-rust compounds and other additives in it which will poison you. Stick to acetone or isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol).

    Given the wide range of people on this site there may even be a medical person with an opinion or someone with direct experience. There is also likely someone who will say everything I have suggested is wrong. You make up your own mind.

    Feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind my own business if I have crossed any kind of line.

    Best of luck and, not knowing who you are, I hope this is a feasible option for you.

  • Lidia – one more thing, it seems not only are your feelings saying something very loudly, but you have done plenty of clear-headed looking into the situation:

    “What research I can find is equivocal about chemotherapy doing any good for the type of cancer I have/ had”

    “The 5-year progression-free survival and overall survival seem to be in the 80-90% range either way, but the chemo can create long-term bodily mayhem, including causing other cancers.” this is true, and something very important to consider.

    “In my case in particular, there is no evidence I can find that these drugs will help me anymore than would coffee enemas, sacrificing a chicken, or pinning an ex voto to the wall of the Church, with the added distinction that none of these treatments is so corrosive that it dissolves plastic. I’m in the belly of “Scientism” at its worst.”

    my thought, again, is both your heart and your head are saying something very clearly here – you took the time to write it all down here, very carefully, even though that is not easy for you at all right now.

  • I probably don’t understand half of what you say in your posts. Am I correct in thinking you are explaining some Hindu philosophy?

    Reality perceived in an alternate way that fully incorporates the previous way of perception. Extremely “opaque” until it is evident. Once one sees it, it is clear as day. Not just “Hindu philosophy”, but Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, Kabbalah, Sufism, the Native American traditions, (one of which was the basis of the writings of Carlos Castaneda) all lay claim to it. Probably others too, such as the Australian Aboriginals.

    Many ways, yet those who have reached the mountain peak by whichever path see all the trails as they converge.

    I was deeply impressed by Castaneda’s work which helped clear a major obstacle manifesting as snootiness & haughtiness stemming from the idea that I was privileged to the one and only path up the mountain: here was a completely alien approach with the same conclusions.

  • @ wildwoman Yes, it seems we have open pool rules… where’s the telltale pink when you need it? Or at least some adult swim time… Seems the trickle down noise is getting louder ’round here. Anyway, the theory of increasing madness while approaching the dead end is getting some indisputable proof. Oh how I wish I had some good UFO buddies who were rad enough to take me away on a cosmic road trip… oh, right, that’s what dreams are for. Meanwhile, back here on terra firma the quest for sanity continues. Interesting to consider for a moment what humanity might do with it if we actually discovered some. Or at least something that would pass for it. Probably market it out like some really cool gadget. Eh, don’t bother now, though, it will probably be on a white sale after Christmas. It still gets white after Christmas in the North, doesn’t it? Doesn’t it?

    @ Rob I hear your convictions. Might as well just give up. No point in even trying to pull it together for one last effort. Yawn. Better to just sit back and watch it all happen — to everyone else, of course. Scratching private parts. Look, you and I have had our personal chats here. I don’t mean to put you down, if you’re sincere. I feel your pain, if its real. If this is how you feel, after making every effort to get as healthy and vital in body and mind as you can… so be it. I’m not here to judge anyone. I guess morosity has its perks, like some good blues in New Orleans. I agree, we’re probably fried. I guess the difference between us is: I say, why not resist and change and save as much life as we can and stop being so dam victimized? What have we got to lose if we’re going to die anyway? Some sweat? Oh, can’t be bothered, have an appointment with my navel. Hey man! Might as well go down fighting like self emancipated adults – instead of just giving up like timid little hypnotized wimps… Which, by the way would really please TPTB. Maybe you’re just sick and tired. For sure civ sucks… get over it… have some sprouts and greens.

    This isn’t a hyperbolic accusation. Please don’t take it personally… But, you know, sometimes I wonder how much they would pay me to shill for them and suppress dissent. Would I have a yacht? A private island? My very own UFO? Would it be worth it? Am I sociopathic and infantile enough to handle it without flinching? What would Mother Earth think of me?

  • @Lidia
    Further to the above cannabis vs cancer info
    try “Run from the cure” movie on Youtube.
    It and other clips about Rick Simpson will
    have video of the DIY extraction process.
    Be mindful of proper lab technique (ventilation, etc.)

    Also, link below is an exhaustive list of links
    re medical research into cannabinols v various ailments.
    There may be more recent lists from Granny Storm Crow.


    Best of luck

  • have been in online discussion groups surrounding many of these issues, and many more that have to do with “conspiracy theories”, for about a decade now.

    Should’ve stayed there.

    We’re not on a sustainable course at all.

    What yer tryin’ t’say is that it doesn’t equate to NTE. NBLers already get that.

    We could easily have a collapse of industry sometime this century. I asked how the hell this led to NTE

    It doesn’t. If you don’t know what the hell we’re about, either read the archives or move the hell on.

    taking in the worst elements of various tidbits of information

    Unpasteurised: and not one at a time: all together now! All the fat ladies in the choir singing.

    I see an incredible amount of variables, all interacting and evolving alongside each other.

    Good. Now try to notice them.

    but “depleting all our resources” isn’t happening anytime soon, and I challenge anyone here to show data showing otherwise.

    How ’bout the percentage of copper in copper ore?The percentage of iron in iron ore? Gold in gold ore? Reserves of timber? Reserves of phosphates? Commercially valuable marine fish? Arable land?

    Depletion ain’t exhaustion. There is more gold in seawater than all the gold mined and purified by humans. Molecules of petroleum hydrocarbons in seawater equivalent to vast petroleum reserves.

    We’re not all going to die in the first swoop.

    Newcomers think that NBLers don’t know that. ‘Tain’t over till it’s over: and that ain’t till the last stiff starts stinkin’.

    I’m approaching middle age.

    Approach other blogs that offer you a better hope at old age.

    I simply see no reason to conclude that NTE is in the works for the vast majority of the scenarios which may play out.

    I simply see no reason for you to wallow at NBL.

    It’s not reasonable to conclude that we’re done for yet, unless it’s truly a sudden runaway global warming event.

    Yep! It’s not reasonable to hang around at NBL.

    If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to say.

    Then STFU.

    All I’m saying, is that it’s not a “techno utopia” to realize that we’ve got game changers in place this time around.

    Go to some blog where you don’t even have to say it: where they are so intelligent that it is understood without saying.

    That’s not “techno utopia”, that’s a big duh to me.

    Again, there are other venues more of intelligence more suited to you.

    That the solutions may not exist, scares you.

    Au contraire, it scares you. That’s why yer hangin’round here, trying to convince NBLers that it is otherwise: as if changing their minds will magically change reality. Sorry to disappoint you, but NBLers have no such magical powers. If ya really accepted what ya say, why’d ya be tryin’ to stamp out stupidity?

    That’s what I’m looking at in some of the more extreme scenarios. Not NTE, or lala land.

    Good. Good. Good! Or as the folks say, ¡excellente! Why the eff are ya stepping in the dogturds here at NBL?

    I drove by myself … turned to the ‘driver’

    Time for a dementia panel (electrolytes, magnesium, calcium, serum osmolality, vitamin B12, B6, (and other items I’ve forgotten but Google surely knows) and some neuroimaging.

    constantly-dripping nose

    A couple of vials of Atrovent® (prescription item) in a nasal spray bottle of saline (nonprescription) may provide some relief. Over-the-counter decongestant sprays sometimes help, but they are primarily vasoconstrictors rather than antisecretory.

    emergency brake on the Cancer Bus

    Ain’t no brake on that bus. Steve Jobs tried alternate therapies for nine months – the first nine: the most critical. All living cells including cancer, like rust, money and for that matter everything else – never sleeps.

  • I just can’t visualise a steady state economy. I just can’t visualise a sustainable society that retains any of our current civilisation.

    I don’t think humans can actually live sustainably, though a much smaller number of them might have approximated sustainability by moving around and allowing the degraded ecosystem they left to regenerate with each move.

    No-one knows the future. Humans (some humans) may well survive this particular bottleneck but I’m not sure any lessons will be learned. Fortunately with far less cheap abundant energy, they won’t be able to rekindle these glory days, even with an abundance of refined resources that could be scavenged from the old civilisation.

  • I read Tim Jackson’s book:
    ‘Prosperity Without Growth’ and being uneducated in econo-jive I concluded, there is no way the many will be able to get there, and it relies on …something called ‘Decoupling’ !

    Isn’t that the psychological impact on the two parent family from wealth extraction currencies? Decoupling.

  • ” Using indicator molecules, a team of researchers headed by ETH Zurich demonstrates that carbon stored in the Arctic permafrost is being mobilised in Eurasian river basins.” It is then carried to the Polar sea by those rivers.


    Because it ends up affecting the Artic Ocean, a 20th positive feedback loop?

    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-08-permafrost-carbon.html#jCp

  • I see no reason to run. People are throwing out a bunch of nonsense my way, and that’s about it. We’ve got vast resources left, no 300 million dying each year. People are blowing these things out of proportion to incredible degrees here. Collective psychosis. No more.

  • @KK: You weren’t seeing things. Al Jazeera is running a story about the upgrade to Incident level 3 today. Note: This is still not an “accident” …whatever that means. and hullo! and thanks for the compliment.

    @Lidia: My heart goes out to you. A friend of mine wrote a book about her tangles with the medical system, much of which revolves around gaining an appropriate sense of control. She did not have cancer, but a chronic illness. She has run workshops for cancer survivors. The book is called My Leaky Body. Her name is Julie Devaney. It may be helpful. How could you not feel like you’ve lost control? How could you not feel self-blame? The system is geared to invoke such feelings. So much of what our society says about cancer is that it is our “fault” if we get it in the first place. A handy ideology for a system designed to spew carcinogens in the name of economic growth. Whatever you decide to do with your body is your choice by rights, but it’s a heck of a reality that someone who is sick and afraid must fight her own doctors for the ability to make a choice, to fight an industrial system determined to strip her of that choice. Best wishes.

    @Michele: Hello fellow Canadian.

    @ Daniel, re: “The learning curve for NTE could easily be considered the steepest ever conceived, for we must first crawl out of a very deep subjective hole, only to reach the zenith in an objective abyss.” Wow. Yes. Well said. I don’t subscribe to the idea that humans are capable of objectivity (as it is enshrined in scientism). To the extent objective means what really exists, though, i am with you 100%.

    muffleupagus wrote: “My mind looks at some of Guys work, and instantly notices that he’s choosing to take in the most extreme sources to highlight, …” I agree with this. Guy mines the worst case scenarios from the climate research and compiles them in one post. (Have you read that yet?) For a few months, I was able to use that fact to avoid believing we are done. At the same time, i had to admit to myself the very real facts on the ground: 1. Kevin Anderson explains how and why the mainstream research is too conservative; 2. Anyone following the story knows the worst case scenarios are almost consistently exceeded. 3. A scientific meta-study concluded the rate of the “it’s worse than we thought” papers to “it’s not at bad as we thought” papers is 20:1. Conclusion: As flawed as Guy’s method is, it looks like easily the best method available and probably, too conservative.

    “People are throwing out a bunch of nonsense my way, and that’s about it.”

    I completely disagree. People welcomed you with open arms, despite the fact that you used a belligerent tone with us from the beginning. people spent time compiling evidence for you to look at in answer to the questions you posted. At least some of us have engaged you directly and honestly, despite the fact you’ve consistently ignored our replies to your questions and despite the fact you keep referring to us as “psychotic” and implying we are both stupid and ignorant, as a group.

    You have said you are here to educate us. You refuse to provide evidence or links to back any of the claims you make.

    As has already been pointed out to you, several times and by different people (we are people here, btw) you are not engaging us in a reasoned debate, by our standards. Thanatos Sunbum summed it up: “You have not provided any insight at all. You have asked some questions, presented some one-liners as if they meant something and you have made a pile of assertions regarding technology without providing any evidence to support them. ” You clearly see us as irrational. So we have different ideas about what constitutes a reasoned debate.

    I agree with you when you say you aren’t a linear thinker. That is very clear.

    I believe you when you say you are not trying to get laughs, because nothing you’ve written here has been funny.

    I believe you think you are being reasonable, and i believe you think we are crazy, ignorant and stupid.

    You are entitled to your opinions. You are entitled to believe they are founded in science and logic.

    You are not entitled to post more than twice per day (nor is anyone else). that’s a rule here. We are mostly self-policing. Please step up and police yourself.

    You are not entitled to be rude and I’d point out to you this is counterproductive if your goal is to educate folk. When I studied adult education in college, they first principle they taught was respect for our students. they told us if people feel insulted or talked down to they won’t listen to a thing we say. Being polite is also a rule here. Please step up and police yourself (if you can — which is unclear to me at this point.)

    This blog exists as the refuge of those who accept NTHE as either a very real possibility or a certainty. That is it’s purpose. You do not like it’s purpose. You are not going to change it’s purpose, no matter what you do. Please consider the reasonableness of bursting into an established blog dedicated to that purpose, intending to prove to us that we are stupid, ignorant and crazy. Please consider our feelings and our desires, even if you believe we are wrong-headed.

    @everyone: There are a lot of accusations of insanity flying about these days, muffle is not alone in making them. I have a mental health diagnosis. Does this make my words and thoughts and feelings irrelevant?

    If Melissa is saying “stop with the mental health name-calling” here : “The fact that the poisonous fish is a mentally ill individual is of no consequence. The fact that the poisonous fish is isolated, desperate, and socially isolated is of no consequence.” Then I agree.

    I don’t like being called crazy, ignorant and stupid. I don’t like being insulted at all.
    Maybe “troll” is an unfair designation, but “don’t feed the trolls” is beginning to look like a good strategy. So I won’t be addressing muffle again, until (unless?) I see another argument that fits *my idea* of respectful, rational discourse.

    PS: A post called “Looking for Loopholes” spawns muffleupagus, how appropriate is that!

  • Also the following reference to be added to my previous post concerning a possible 20th positive feedback loop (in the Arctic):


  • With thanks to Andrew Anselmo for his contribution, I’ve posted a new guest essay. It’s here.

    Please respect my request to limit your own contributions to one or two comments each day. And also be kind as you raise hell.

  • @Erin Trimmed the growing tips of the tomato plants to let them know that the time for growth is over. Fall is coming and they ought to concentrate on ripening the tomatoes they have now – not making new ones. At first they don’t believe me, but I persist and they do get it eventually.

    As will we all.

    So poetic. And profound. Thank you.

  • @ logspirit
    Believe me, I hear you (and Jesse and infanttyrone). I’ve stated my position over and over again, the resistance is futile (handing out coffee cans to the passengers on the Titanic and yelling “Bail!” does not inspire me, forming a “Lynch the Captain” committee for running into the iceberg, does not inspire me). I believe I’m as guilty as the next guy, really, I do, I believe I’m as guilty as Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the Koch brothers.

    For me, NTE doesn’t really matter. I’m a refugee of industrial civilization. I came to NBL from a place of general malaise and I found my answer here – that industrial civilization, consumerism, capitalism, etc, were what was wrong, NTE was just the icing on the cake.

    I have been quite annoyed that all the predictions keep getting pushed back, but I guess that’s just the way it goes. I walked out on everything and I’m sure I won’t last for very long – eventually I’ll get sick or something and that will be it for me. But I truly hope to see the chaos begin in earnest before my last day – I want to see the govt buildings burn and the politicians hang.

    I can’t stay in Denver much past September, so I’ll have to move South, and I’m really not looking forward to that since I have some semblance of a routine here that works – but, it won’t work when it’s cold!

    My chief resistance is to not participate.

    However, I am at odds with The Resistance in that it seems their objectives are all over the place – green energy, recycle, sustainable communities, localization, intentional communities, prepping, hoarding, No Nukes, etc. None of which do I see as any kind of actual answer to the problem. So, I’m not joining any of these programs.

    We all know what The Solution is:
    90% of the population has to die
    But first they must help us dismantle the toxic infrastructure of industrial civilization
    the survivors must live in balance with Nature, plant no crops, build no cities

    But, as Guy says, it’s already too late even if we could implement The Solution (and we can not).

    So, yes, I do nothing because nothing is all I have left to do. When the time comes, maybe I will take Jesse’s advice and infanttyrone and try to take some poor greedhead with me, but I’m not really interested in trying to make that judgement – especially when I really believe that I’m as guilty as the next guy.

  • Wow! I only got through the middle of this thread, skimmed the bottom, then have to hit the road. Family vacations illuminate a lot for me. Obese Americans in hotels, arrogant drivers on the road at 75+ mph tailgating this relaxed old hippie. Urge to kill. Depressing, plus any urge I’ve ever had to “save” their useless asses goes right in the dumpster with the plastic trash.

    Logspirit, I chomped down some bacon at hotel breakfast in your stead, vegan someday, maybe.

    Glad Guy finally told somebody about 2-post rule; it’s really our only limitation ’round here. There also ought to be a short quiz as to “Have you actually read Guy’s NTE premise postings about “It’s all about the HABITAT” ” before getting a posting handle. Too complicated, I know. Too easy to spew out posts.

    No, I don’t think the 100-and-something plant disintegration temperature is a done deal, but I’ve only read through it once or twice, so I’m overdue on that part of our course of study. Enough fatal vectors already.

    I think mass agricultural collapse does in 99% of humanity, who can’t go back to hunter-gatherer. Not sure what does in the rest, except just a growingly sterile heated environment for survival.

    Oh yeah, oxygen from the phytoplankton, too. Drop that 20% to 15% and game over? Nature doesn’t need to bat last, as one here said; it’s already ahead by thousands of runs.

    Thumbun has been working hard to write for us, so outbursts I guess are part of a complex personality displaying high intelligence, offering considerable information. Just don’t want to get on his bad side. And his nemesis Ulvfugl has been pitching in sharply of late showing a range of thinking I’d not seen before. Provocative personalities make a blog interesting when they’re not being just stupid, as our participants prove. I’m really enjoying the sincere offerings of all those who take that time out their lives to help move us along this emotional/intellectual curve ahead.

  • Erin,

    Based on your recommendation, I cut back my tomato plants some. Thanks.

    A link to back up my earlier post. Though short on collapse awareness, the principles embodied in the interviews are indispensable for resistance, IMO:


  • infanttyrone: Sorry, but a three minute clip from Repo Man about the Mayans inventing TV proves or disproves nothing except I just wasted three minutes on nothing. Dr. Albert Guerard said, “When you seek a path to any new truth, you must expect to find it blocked by ‘expert opinion.”

    Royal Belgium Air Force Major General and Deputy Chief Wilfred De Brouwer Report:

    “My name is Wilfried De Brouwer. I am a retired Major General of the Belgian Air Force and I was Chief Operations in the Air Staff when an exceptional UFO wave took place over Belgium. Indeed, during the evening of 29 November 1989, in Eastern Belgium, 140 UFO sightings were reported. Hundreds of people saw a majestic triangular craft with a span of approximately 120 feet, powerful beaming spot lights, moving very slowly without making any significant noise but, in several cases, accelerating to very high speeds.
    The following days and months, many more sightings would follow. The UFO wave would last more than one year during which a Belgian UFO organization conducted more than 650 investigations and recorded more than 400 hours of audio witness reports. On one occasion, a photograph revealed the triangular shape and four light beams of the object.
    In my function of Chief Operations, I was confronted with numerous questions about the origin and nature of these craft. In the first instance, and in consultation with other NATO partners, I could confirm that no flights of stealth aircraft or any other experimental aircraft look place in the airspace of Belgium. In addition, the Civil Aviation Authorities confirmed that no flight plans had been introduced and the object(s) committed infractions against the existing aviation rules.
    The Belgian Air Force tried to identify the alleged intruder(s) and, on three occasions, launched F 16 aircraft. On one occasion, two F 16 registered rapid changes in speed and altitude which were well outside of the performance envelope of existing aircraft. In short, the Belgian UFO wave was exceptional and the Air Force could not identify the nature, origin and intentions of the phenomena. Briefing at the National Press Club on November 14, 2007”.

  • Thanatos Sunbum – one quick thought. what is really abstract? what is materialism? look into quantum theory, the standard model, general relativity – look into any of these things for just a fraction of a second, and you will find abstraction that curls your toes and burns your eyebrows right off. but it is simultaneously extraordinarily concrete, and able to give predictions to such levels of accuracy that are nearly beyond comprehension.

    this relates to 18000days point. how is this possible? HOW??? I really do want to know. that was both flippant and very *not* flippant. 18000days, if you had any more thoughts about how those things are possible, I would like to hear them. where did this cleverness come from – on one end from Nature, and on the other end from our brains, that can actually be so abstract to grasp such things.

  • @ Henry There is a lot of Death in our culture. So much so, that we have forgotten that the purpose of Life isn’t Death. In the stinking rotting core of global ‘civilization’… in the U.S. 54% of taxes are spent on the military. Killing in the guise of ‘hunting’ and ‘fishing’ is heavily promoted as a healthy, mentally well balanced perspective. This culture fetishizes violence and dominance and Death. Culturally induced psychopaths with guns killing for ‘fun’, to lick boredom. Some of the highest rates of murder and suicide. Death of the ecosystem. Death everywhere… hanging on meat hooks… arranged on our dinner plates.

    Death of our own enjoyment of Life… Enjoyment of Life is typically highly suspicious to the capitalist boss… and the schoolteacher. Probably not working hard enough. Not making enough money or credits for her/him. Must still be a surplus of energy there that they are not controlling and profiting from. Work ’em to… Death.

    There is the Death we have been duped to impose upon ourselves: From bad food from bad growing practices that destroy the Earth and our health; Lack of exercise; Lack of sunshine; Insufficient rest; Addictions to toxins of all sorts. So, I’m mourning for you, and the pig you ate, may she rest in peace. Amen.

    Those who are blindly addicted to the Death Culture, who are deeply submerged in it, often go ballistic on me for violating the Death Culture taboos and speaking out about this. I’m used to it after more than 40 years as a vegan. All sorts of bizarre, unfounded rationalizations. Such attacks are often driven by hot guilt, which isn’t recognized, due to cognitive dissonance.

    I always say: “Your health is how you feel. If you want to feel as good as you can, take care of your health.” That’s both mental and physical. There isn’t a solid division between them. The mind and body are of the same overall Life process. Our bodies are of the overall ecosystem. Of the Universe. What affects one affects the other. Food that makes the body sick, isn’t healthy for the mind. Or the ecosystem. It makes us feel bad. A Dead ecosystem makes us feel very bad, it kills us. Death diets also affect others… it isn’t a victimless crime… all of us pay for expensive health care systems to ‘patch’ the body damage this Death Culture inspires.

    Try turning it around, you might feel a whole lot better. Taste is acquired. It is very easy to get going with a few simple recipes. They will help you excrete the toxic load, and the toxic load of accumulated negative programming.

    The Buddha said: “Eating flesh extinguishes the seeds of compassion.”

    @ Rob A lot of what I just offered to Henry I also offer to you. The Death Culture brings on a lot of despondency and depression. It is a means of control. We are duped into our own demise. Duped to just get sad and give up. Without a solid healthy base, that is expected. It is predictable. Even if NTE is inevitable, even if all efforts are futile, even if a person only has one breath left… it is in the effort that the reward is found. In the effort itself. As Alan Watts said (if I may paraphrase): “The purpose of eating a banana isn’t to win a race to the other end.” It isn’t the destination, it is the journey that Life is all about. The purpose of Life isn’t Death.

    In the end, we all die. That isn’t an excuse to stop the enjoyment of Life, to stop living, to stop others from living. Don’t be duped into suffering as a miserable deflated walking dead zombie. I hope you will seek to maximize your health and vitality so that you can live the most effective, purposeful, meaningful, happiest life you can. Reject the evil Death Culture from your own life, then help reject it from all of our lives.

    Wake up and smell the roses, then you will have a reason to defend them.

  • @Erin

    “Trimmed the growing tips of the tomato plants to let them know that the time for growth is over. Fall is coming and they ought to concentrate on ripening the tomatoes they have now – not making new ones. At first they don’t believe me, but I persist and they do get it eventually……As will we all.

    I agree with Badlands, a profound analogy on many levels. Thanks for this, I’ve been thinking about it all day.

  • muffleupagus says, It’s confirmation bias. Everyone in this psychotic group seems to be patting each other on the back for doing it…lack of imagination…realize that you’re likely causing more harm than good to yourself and those who care for you.

    re: confirmation bias. Guy and group already addressed his/our propensity toward this. See December 2012 Motivated reasoning posts, kind of wonky, trying out a different format, but still, the conversation has been had.

    re: imagination. I would argue that lack of imagination goes both ways. You accuse this ‘psychotic’ group of lacking imagination in dreaming up techno or other fixes, other possibilities. I see lack of imagination on your part in weaving the tapestry of evidence together to it’s likely and rather unpalatable conclusions. Also, I can use my imagination and anecdotal evidence, in concert with the scientific evidence, to the conclusion that things are actually much worse than what we see.

    re: causing ourselves and loved ones harm. Possibly true. I can say that for all of my worries, the most sound and most simple piece of advice for raising children in these times, came from Jennifer Hartley who wrote some articles for this blog. What was it? To say ‘yes’ as often as possible to the children. And to say no to the rest, anything that detracts from what is important, namely drama, pettiness.

    And no, this is not an echo chamber. The evidence ‘out there’ led me here, the only place inhabited by people discussing the possibility of NTE and what/if there is anything we can truly do about it in an honest way. Having these discussions affords one the advantage of having gone ‘there’ to the best of the combined abilities of mind, heart, psyche.

    @Lorraine, I want to thank you for being so candid. Seeing the name-calling in this thread and others, along with your heartfelt and self-searching posts, brings me to the conclusion that I have been too trusting of this group and the personal anecdotes I share. I just haven’t seen the point in being less than honest on these forums, my time is too precious to beat around the bush. I need to hear how other people are dealing with the concept of NTE, but I also need to hear about practical matters as well, how people are functioning/not functioning out there with real-life consequences of climate chaos, etc.

    So when people say so-and-so is lonely, isolated, mentally-ill, and on and on, and then so-and-so is a POS, should burn at the stake, well, those people reveal too much about themselves. They reveal how they would treat the least of us, or the differently abled. That is scary stuff. If someone cannot attack the idea, rather than the person presenting the idea, they shouldn’t engage. It’s a simple concept, though difficult to put into practice. Maybe ulvfugl is all of those things, maybe none of those things. To me, he comes across as someone who has done his homework, as well as everyone else’s homework, and so can contribute a lot in the way of sifting through all of the garbage on the internet and presenting solid information. I can appreciate that, because personally, I don’t have the time. I just don’t see the point in being hurtful to people because of a few ruffled feathers in online forums.
    Thanks again for your honest truth. It’s a hard way to live, but so worth the effort.

  • @ Lorraine, and Badlands

    Great comments, thanks for them !

  • @Friedrich Kling

    a) Sorry you took it so seriously, but the Repo Man clip was offered 99% as an amusing entertainment. I posted it because the Edgar Lee Masters animation reminded me of two contemporary actors.

    For the other 1%, you could check out Prof. Kip Thorne of CalTech, who has done some investigations into the idea of time machines. The math is beyond my scope of expertise, so if you notice any resemblance to UFO’s you’ll need to correspond directly with Dr. Thorpe. But if you, like my brother and multiple friends, have witnessed a UFO, you may already know something of Thorpe.

    b) Sorry I can’t give you an exact quotation, but that aphorism from Albert Guerard reminds me of something Richard Feynman said to the effect that as your belief about something develops toward a state of certainty the chances of your being wrong (at least to some degree about part of that something) increase. He seemed to be very satisfied about being “pretty sure” about a lot of things and leaving room within which Nature could surprise him…maybe not as much room as muffleupagus (and some folks here that think we might have time to evolve ourselves out of our predicament) would like to have.
    If Feynman were alive today (well, he’d be pretty old…but if he were only as old as when he died, but in good health) I’m “pretty sure” he’d analyze our status as toasted and be working on his bucket list.

    I seriously doubt that you’re nearly as guilty as the Koch brothers.
    Barring having a shrine to Ted Bundy in your basement, I’m not sure how that’s possible. Maybe you’d care to explain your analysis. I’m pretty sure you missed something in working through the comparison, but maybe it was I who overlooked something.

  • Thanks Badlands. You sure got a way with words. Peace to you, hope your little ones are OK.

  • Lidia,

    my thoughts go with wings to you.

    My brother went through the Chemo 35 years ago. He didn’t make it, but you can. Heaps of greens, walnuts and blueberries, with real Rosehip tea and Dandelion Root coffee, as strong as you can drink it. Sorry if that sounds trite, it is not meant to be. Your body will heal best with blood purifiers, cleansers and omega 3’s. Jebus Lidia, just trying to help….. care from down under…

  • BadlandsAK and Lorraine, thank you for your posts. So many personalities here, so much pain and anger, it’s up to us females (as it always is) to have a countering force here to keep it real and on the ground. It’s been proven over and over that all male entities become…..well, let’s just say unhealthy and leave it at that.

    Rob, I’m going to echo infanttyrone here. When you realize that by virtue of birth you are helping to kill the planet, the guilt is overwhelming. Knowing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to mitigate your presence (other than immediate suicide) is…well, yeah, you go to a dark, dark place. It’s stupid, probably, but the way I manage that is to do what I can to mitigate anyway (knowing it’s bullshit) AND to keep that continuum in my head at all times….you know the one…it’s the raping and plundering one…you and I all by ourselves cannot possibly do to the planet in a year what the Kocked brothers do in a day. Perspective, brother.

    I don’t know if you were inducted into the rape culture of the catholic church at birth as I was, but I understand guilt and atonement quite well. I kind of thought atonement meant doing something you wouldn’t normally do, doing something that goes against the grain to pay for your crimes. Is doing nothing it? Really? Please, you might want to give it a little more thought. The pain you express here really resonates with me.

  • So, it seems their are levels of guilt – maybe I bought a dozen pairs of Nike shoes and 100 Chinese children suffered in sweat shops to make them. The Koch bothers, et al, BUILD the sweatshops, FINANCE the sweatshops, etc.

    However, the Koch brothers would not exist without consumers. I buy the shoes, I make the Koch brothers.

    So, yes, I totally believe I’m as guilty as Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and the Koch brothers.

    I’m not interested in atonement – I’m not religious – not even remotely spiritual. I am a child of Industrial Civilization. I was a mindless consumer, a willing participant – I thought it was “good.” Now, I am a refugee of Industrial Civilization because now I think it is “bad.” Simple. I no longer participate (no house, no car, no job), even though I still live off IC because I can’t live in the wilderness hunting rabbits (at least not for very long, although I guess I’d be willing to give it a try, maybe sooner than I think).

    Yes, I’m guilty, yes, I’m sad. However, I’m glad I don’t slave away at a dead-end job with no hope for retirement and I’m glad I’m no longer paying bills in an endless cycle. I’m free – and I know that does nothing for the children that have suffered because of the life I lived, I know I can’t do anything about that now. I truly believe there is no redemption because what’s done is done. Does it make everything okay to kick a dog and then give him a bone? two bones? how many bones? how many bones?

    My stance on The Resistance is pretty clear. I’d be happy to go over to the state capitol, stand in a set of old tires and pour gasoline all over myself and light it up – if it would make any difference. It wouldn’t. So, I just do nothing and I’m cool with that – in fact, I have it WAY better than those poor kids in China – have you seen photos of Bejing lately? Read the stories about the wastelands they are creating mining for rare earth minerals for cell phones and I-pads? Who buys the cell phones and I-pads?

    The children suffer, there is no redemption.

  • logspirit — Death Culture: tell me about it! (you did) — yesterday I drove through Newtown (Sandy Hook) CT. As we turned, I recognized the intersection from the news videos, when it was blocked off by the police cars that horrific day. Didn’t see the school, however; with my “little girl” next to me in the car, I had the instinct that I wanted her never to see that site anyway.

    The USA has done just about everything except gladiators in the Coliseum — the Romans beat “us” to that, and it would be just too, too obvious to go there immediately, but they’re doing everything just about right up to the edge, and will probably get to televised snuff films eventually. James Caan’s “Rollerball” comes to mind. My Lai, too.

    On the end of the already phony Cold War, the Death Culture went on producing arms waste against unknown future “enemies”, who turned out to be shepherds on hillsides with an ancient musket at worst, made enemies by “our” own invading them. Their sons go out to collect wood, Apache helicopters gun them down. Bradley Manning is jailed for revealing similar “embarrassments” the Empire wishes never to be shown.

    Like rats in a densely crowded experiment, the humans in urban/suburban “civilization” will be chewing at each other soon enough; they just barely co-exist as it is now. Their uses of life-killing cars betrays their arrogance and violent context toward all life. JHKunstler reminds us weekly, in trenchant prose.

    When people here discuss “suicide” I think, they are only describing their feelings in the existing system. I wish that good people would take themselves outside of it, to other cultures, and get a perspective that “it doesn’t/didn’t have to be this way”, and then they might not be caught up in the suicidal sweep.

    For the sake of my “first post of the day”, I’ll speculate that people who do not die in an urban collapse (starvation/predation) scenario will have more time (and food?) to wait out climate’s effects on them in more remote locales. Like medieval times, seasonal gardens will be unreliable, and privation will eventually rule. Putting food “away” through winter, or their new climatic equivalents, will be valued. Social arrangements will revolve around trading these new precious valuables.

    News from other parts of the world will be scarce to non-existent. The “last humans” will not know they are the last humans. But everyone with a moment to wonder may wonder about it. Committing suicide because theoretically “everyone else is dying” just wouldn’t make much sense to them.

    (That’s why I watched “On The Beach” again recently; those folks checked around first and found they were probably the last left. Didn’t try to stretch it out a bit longer, though, in underground hideouts. Fred Astaire drove his race car to the burning end.)

    The survival instinct will await a “turning” of seasons, or of climate, or luck, and — as Guy summarizes — it likely will not come. Perhaps the survival instinct has one last go at Natural Selection, the opposite of suicidal resignation.

    Under the slow starvation of late Spring, in multiple locations during multiple years, the final humans would be faced with that decision to end it. But, like Leningrad under siege for — what, two years? — they’ll eat shoe leather first.

    Although it is the logical endpoint of a Death Culture (which not all the world shares), I think the intellectual conceptualizing of suicide now is premature, and ought to await actual conditions as described above. But hey, JustMHO — it’s up to the individual, right?

    (I’ve recognized Depression being covered up by intellectualizing, in friends contemplating ending it, but usually it’s a medical condition driving that Depression.)

    Again, I would recommend, as I think you also do, that thinking people try to separate themselves as much as possible from the Death Culture, and experience Life to the extent possible, before thinking about cutting it short.

  • @wildwoman, Kirk, ulvfugl, others. You’re very welcome. I know this place is full of words, but the people behind those words matter to me. So, I try to offer what I can. Hey, you are all cool by me!

    Everything is cool
    Everything’s okay
    Why just before last christmas
    My baby went away

    Across the sea to an island
    While the bridges brightly burn
    So far away from my land
    The valley of the unconcerned

    I was walking down the road, man
    Just looking at my shoes
    When God sent me an angel
    Just to chase away my blues

    I saw a hundred thousand blackbirds
    Just flying thru the sky
    And they seemed to form a teardrop
    From a black haired angel’s eye

    That tear fell all around me
    And it washed my sins away
    Now everything is cool
    Everything’s okay

    Everything is cool
    Everything’s okay
    Why just before last christmas
    My baby went away

    And I find it real surprising
    For myself to hear me say
    That everything is cool
    Everything’s okay
    Everything is cool
    Everything’s okay

    Why just before last christmas
    My baby went away.

    -John Prine

  • Hi Henry,

    “When people here discuss “suicide” I think, they are only describing their feelings in the existing system. I wish that good people would take themselves outside of it, to other cultures, and get a perspective that “it doesn’t/didn’t have to be this way”, and then they might not be caught up in the suicidal sweep.”

    It’s hard if you only know the “West” not to think that you see the world objectively. It would be mind blowing to see how other peoples view the world, and how much their alternative views make a difference to the sense of reality.

    I appreciate your thoughts on how this all comes down in a gradual scenario. What if there was an unimaginable awakening among key members of TPTB? First, they’d have to try to stave off the worst of Fukushima. Then they’d have to somehow make all the other nuke facilities fail safe. (Just a reminder: this is a fantasy!) But nuke meltdown or not, only underground living would be viable in a world without vegetation. Sea water would have to be desalinized/distilled in funky, makeshift ways by each community pod (suggestion the incongruous need to live near the raging, rising seas). All the old car glass in he world would have to be assembled and distributed, possibly to serve for millennia, to make skylights. Living on Earth would be somewhat like living in space crafts.

    Again, just dreaming, just dreaming…

  • Artleads — I’d probably go a different way, to buy a little more time. High altitude, berm into the mountainside for coolness and temperature regulation, find deep source well water, springs that won’t be affected as much by rainfall patterns shifting. Use your glass sources to make use of light coming into garden areas (plus shield from any radiation floating by), maybe hydroponics in shaded areas? (about which I know zilch), research and preserve vegetable varieties that will handle different climate zones.

    Pick the right spot; you only get one chance. Make friends with the locals, and carry a big stick for when that doesn’t work.

    Don’t think there aren’t mega-zillionaires pricing out this whole setup right now. Only they won’t be as friendly to the locals…

  • Great, Henry. You’re right. Only one chance. So I fantasize. Discreet groups finding a haven at the expense of other groups probably wouldn’t work as a practical matter. It would have to include everybody or nobody. Sometimes the moral way is the most practical way. And it would have to be supported by the PTB. That’s the fanciful part.

  • @ Henry Yup. And I sincerely encourage you to look further into the vegan lifestyle… Please research it first, don’t just cut down to beer and chips, ‘vegan’ as that might sound. Please get a good comprehension of what a balanced healthy plant based vegan diet entails, before embarking on it. Some people don’t do their homework, don’t do it right, don’t get the benefits, and return to the toxic stuff.

    At the very least be aware that you’ll need sources of B12 and Omega3’s. I use nutritional yeast and flax seed for these. And yes, yeast is acceptable to most vegans. I also eat cooked food, though some eat only raw. I feel that for most folks, cooking is important to get enough calories without munching all day long. I recommend about a 50-50 raw-cooked mix. Cooking at temperatures over 118F (~47C) destroys enzymes, which are essential for good health. Fresh sprouts (grow your own) and fermented foods like miso and sauerkraut are also important. Greens and other veggies, fruits, legumes, and whole grains constitute most of it. Throw in some nuts and seeds. Various medicinal herbs like garlic and ginger, turmeric, basil, etc are important. It’s also important to cut out: sugar, artificial sweeteners, white flour, excessive fat and alcohol and caffeine, and of course all animal based things including dairy and eggs. Not necessary to do it all at once, just add new recipes and cut down the junk.

    I’ve been eating this way for 40 years, and I’m basically healthy and strong, despite my battle with Lyme Disease and homelessness (which may end soon). I’d be willing to bet what little I have that if you go on a plant based diet you will feel better in many ways, and save money to boot. At nearly 60 I often outdo 20 somethings. True, I’ve been in physical training through most of my adult life, and that does make a difference, but without a clean diet those who appear ‘tough’ tend to drop like flies at the window.

    It will take a month or two to begin to clear out the accumulated toxins and start noticing a serious difference, and about seven years (if humans last that long) to get fully clean. If you’re like most folks, you’ll lose your affection for the old menu very quickly — especially when you start feeling the benefits of a fresh lifestyle in unmistakable ways. I hope you’ll give it a try.

  • logspirit — Thanks for the encouragement; I’ve been bordering on and trying in bits and pieces, but never so completely as you suggest. Had Hyman in my reading for a year now, Blaylock on the Kindle just started — so much research has appeared in recent decade. But yes, the course is simple enough. Purification — for what is to come, or just to live on. Clear the mind, too.

    Appropriateness? I’ve thought more than a few times here: What we are talking about is mass starvation. And every time I’ve fasted for about a week, I’ve found full energy recurs after a few slow days, the toxins begin to go bye-bye, and I have a tremendous perspective on hunger, balance, and the world’s battle with and over food.

    That’s about as far as I go, of course, but it’s very educational. Just as I suppose the vegan experience will be different for each personality. It’s only the past couple years I’ve started to focus on my health as number one effort, still so easily distracted. The obesity epidemic around us is a stark reminder to maintain this focus. People’s hearts must be crying out: “Get me the F out of here! I didn’t evolve for this!”

    I was going to suggest we all try breaking out of our food habits, whatever they may be — me first, ha ha! — while we are trying so hard to suss out the world’s demise over food loss.

    I’m hearing more lately about East Coast friends’ battles with LD — sad to hear it’s come your way.

  • @BadlandsAK
    I only bought the hazmat suit for my swim/surf back to Costa Rica.
    Still in Austin and maybe headed to San Diego for back pain work.
    Lots of pharmacies in Tijuana in case you need anything.
    You can ask Guy for my email (permission granted).
    Bon chance ! Oops that’s the wrong lingo, Buena suerte !

    OK, I get your analysis.
    Sure, we all (or most of us) bought some shoes & lots more.
    But it is pretty complicated when you look at the production side.

    My late wife and I did business in Pakistan in the early to mid-1990s.
    A family we knew had a pair of young kids (maybe 9 or 10 years old) who came from an agricultural rural area (read: cotton fields).
    The kids were basically servants for the family, but they were also sent to school during the time of their service, and some amount of money was sent back to their family in the rural area.

    If they hadn’t been working for the people we knew, chances were overwhelming that those kids would have been back home picking cotton to help support their own family. Or if they were very lucky they might have gotten work sewing soccer balls together or weaving rugs until their fingers grew too large to do the detailed work…and then, out to the cotton fields.

    The culture there (read: feudal land owners) was/is not interested in the rights of humans in general, much less those of children. We didn’t buy any soccer balls, but we did buy a small handmade rug, and whenever I’m at a thrift store and notice a clothing tag that says “Made in Pakistan”, or made almost anywhere else, I wonder how those kids have fared in the past 20 years or so.

    When you compare Bucky Fuller’s idea about the future (that machines could automate so many people out of needless jobs to the extent that the only people who would do ‘work’ in the future would do it as volunteers and would have to pass proficiency exams to be allowed to do so) as expressed in his book Critical Path with the ideas about Control as expressed by Burroughs and some of the analysts of financial conspiracies, it’s sad to think that Fuller, as much of a genius as he was, may have been hopelessly naive and that “conspiracy theorists”, as wacky or wrong as they can be on this or that detail, have at least the overall picture scoped out fairly accurately.

    The long form of J.B.S. Haldane’s quote seems to be true:
    I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.

    If you ever change your mind about the tires and gas exit tactic, maybe you could beta test it on a greedhead or two before you go ?

  • @ Infanttyrone

    You made me laugh, thanks. I am of the opinion that there is no point to taking greedheads with me – let them suffer the Zombie Apocolypse…

  • infanttyrone – “I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.”

    what would the average peasant of 1000 years ago think of our future here and now? would their sanity, their “mental health,” survive for more than a few minutes? the experience of some uncontacted peoples, when brought into sudden awareness of this future, basically says – well, their sanity may survive, sort of, but everything else in them probably will not. much of history is a sad story about such things.

    now consider the current understanding of most peasants today. and consider the truth of this quote above (I will say only – it is very true). consider that reality, the Universe, is actually queerer than you can suppose. perhaps so much queerer that it would challenge your sanity on some very fundamental levels, very very quickly.

    but what if, being just another peasant today, what if you thought along these lines, about this queerness question, for a good long time, and decided you wanted to take a look for yourself, in some fashion that has been suggested perhaps by some of the more queer peasants you know or have heard of, but that of course most other peasants of your day would probably consider… mmm, somewhat questionable, to put it charitably.

    now, after a time of looking and learning, and various changing from your looking and learning, it seemed that in some ways, the Universe started behaving, or just BEING, and then even more weirdly, DOING – in indeed very very queer ways.

    ways that shocked you and challenged you. ways that, even though you thought you might be prepared based on your earlier research, you still really were not prepared for at all. ways that before you started questioning and looking, you would have thought completely impossible, because quite frankly, they seemed pretty insane.

    or at least pretty radical, totally improbable and just plain weirder than shit. (but something maybe no more radical than an iPhone would be to a peasant of 1000 years ago, perhaps? how would you explain an iPhone to someone of 1000 years ago?)

    well, it is a fun thought experiment. sci-fi writers have played with these ideas for a long time now. one thing they really like playing with is how time travelers need to be really careful, going both ways. but of course, careful as they may be, things always get fucked up, and that’s what makes for a really fun and interesting story, full of drama and risk, even death and insanity, maybe redeemed by love, or love that cannot redeem. I love stories like that, and it’s always the key turning point, when the rules just have to be broken. “we never free a mind once its reached a certain age” – that kind of thing.


    “To accept it and make that fundamental change is not within the nature of most humans. Thus the mess that mankind now finds itself in. The old kings of the industrial era cannot accept the new way. They seek to force mankind’s hand and warp reality and their perceptions of it. Truth be told we are all wrong. It will come a day when you will have to recon with this, for those of us who seek, it will come many times in a life. This IMHO the ultimate test of courage. To face your folly and accept it.”

    that’s a nice quote from the above link. (btw, I don’t do drugs of any kind, and I never drink alcohol. neither are necessary. if they suit some, fine, but they don’t suit me at all.)

    all just travelers on the Beach of Doom here… living in folly, and hopefully accepting it as best we can.

  • @mo flow
    Very interesting ideas.
    Further to your conjecture about peasants from 1000 years ago, I would not be surprised if peasants from 2000, 3000, or 4000 years ago would be more able to mentally adapt to the functionality of an iPhone than would the peasants of only 1000 years ago. I suspect that the ones from 1000 AD or so would (depending on where they were from) would be more likely to ascribe the functioning of such a device to witchcraft, and thereby deem it something to be avoided (even the thinking about it would be considered dangerous and taboo), while regular folks from a thousand years or more earlier might view it as a machine that allowed the user to more easily accomplish a task that wasn’t a taboo for their culture, such as telepathy. Just an idea. There is probably some time period where the average Jane’s response was in the process of changing. I don’t know enough about Julian Jaynes’ work to have an educated guess about the reaction to an iPhone among peasants living in the 1000 BC era. Maybe they would have perceived it as witchcraft also.

    I read the comments in that DMT forum thread. Interesting idea about the Indian idea of needing to be retired from money-making or providing for a family before looking for enlightenment. A little reminiscent of Leary’s early testimony to a Senate subcommittee recommending LSD licenses for properly trained people.

    One note about time travel from Kip Thorne’s Wiki page:”Recent calculations by Thorne indicate that simple masses passing through traversable wormholes could never engender paradoxes – there are no initial conditions that lead to paradox once time travel is introduced.” But he’s probably not on the must-read list of most SciFi authors…whaddya gonna do wit dese show biz types anyway ?