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Published on the Doomstead Diner on November 17, 2013

Super Typhoon Haiyan

Discuss this article at the Environment Table inside the Diner

Last weekend the Phillipines got whalloped by yet ANOTHER disaster, a “Super-Typhoon. This is apparently the most powerful cyclonic storm ever, coming in bigger and harder than Sandy and Katrina combined. The storm pushed in a tidal surge of 6 meters, pretty close to the size of the Tsunami that hit Fukushima. Fortunately, the Phillipinos do not have a Nuclear Reactor around Tacoban.

For at least 10,000 Philipinos though, not having a Nuke to spill radioactive waste all over the island is not a big help, since they are dead anyhow. Death toll as of Monday anyhow, sure to rise over the days ahead, so by the time I publish on Sunday, I should have a more updated number. For those left alive, the situation is not a whole lot better, no electricity, no potable water, not much shelter since pretty much all the flimsy shacks they call homes were basically flattened. Even most of their public buildings were flattened, Emergency Shelters packed with refugees went down too.

Much 2nd guessing of the Philipino Goobermint also for not getting the people evacuated effectively, but really where would they send them? Well, higher ground would make sense if you are expecting a tidal surge, but they don’t have any shelters up in the mountains so basically people would have had to strap themselves to Trees up there to try to ride it out. Besides that it’s not like most Philipinos have SUVs they can jump into for a Bugout either. These are are pretty much dirt poor people of course. So basically they hunker down and hope for the best, but in this case they got the WORST.

In the aftermath, the NATO military sent in a few ships and Choppers, and pretty much every AID Charity in the Phone Book was already there. Why? Because the same neighborhood had a decent size Earthquake a few months ago, and before that they had enormous floods last year. Said 3 disasters have set one new record after another for Damage Costs, this one should be well over $1B, Chump Change here but Big Money in the Philipines. The only reason damage estimates are so low is because most of the shacks destroyed are pretty close to worthless Tin Roof and Scrap Wood jobs.

Now, the Philipines have always been in “Typhoon Alley”, getting an average of 24 a year or so, but of course prior to Ocean Cooking they didn’t pack quite such a whallop. Though they always had flooding issues, they didn’t get new Record Breaking flooding every year either. They also didn’t see near as much Earthquake activity either. is just the problem on the Weather/Geological side of the equation. The other side of the equation is the increase in Population size and the change in the way they live. Prior to WWII when the Philipines served as a Battleground for Gen. Douglas MacArthur and the Japanese Imperial Army, the place basically contained a few small communities and fishing villages scattered around the islands, no electricity, no running water, no industrial infrastructure at all. After the war, as a Protectorate of the FSoA Empire, they were leveraged up into the 20th Century, built some Big Shities and wired up the Islands for Juice. Like all the rest of the 3rd world countries, their population EXPLODED.

So now when you read stories about the disaster, you repeatedly read the line “Many Philipinos are cut off from BASIC SERVICES of electricity and running water.” In our psycho world, these pretty complex and expensive bits of infrastructure to maintain are considered “BASIC” services. They weren’t basic 100 years ago there, they didn’t even EXIST! They are basic now though, because in the absence of them the whole system falls apart. Now instead of having a few people living in vulnerable areas living a subsistence life, you have a LOT of people dependent on the same kind of JIT Food delivery as you do here, and when it STOPS they wander around like Zombies, “loot” whatever stores might have a few cans of food and as thirst catches up with them start drinking water from streams that are now polluted to beat the band in the first place, and with all the Dead Bodies floating around now also breeding up every disease carrying organism in the Microbiology Handbook.

This concept of “Looting” in a disaster also is one I have quite a few issues with. I would consider it “Looting” if somebody runs into the local Electronics store and runs out carrying a Plasma TV, quite unlikely to WORK anytime to soon around there anyhow. Is it “Looting” though to go through the busted window of a food store and scavenge for a few cans of beans that you might find? There are no cashiers working to PAY for the food anyhow! Electricity is OUT, EBT cards don’t work, HTF can you BUY it anyhow? This is not “Looting”, it is just pure SURVIVAL! You are supposed to “STARVE” rather than “LOOT”? What? If MY Hovel was just washed away with all my preps and I was lucky enough to not get washed out to sea with it, bet your bottom dollar I would climb out from the wreckage and see if I could scavenge up some Cans of Beans anywhere in the neighborhood! We need a new Definition/Words for this besides “Looting”. “Disaster Scavenging” maybe or “Food Seeking”, something a bit more Postive than “Looting”.

So they gotta fix all this stuff up and QUICK, except they can’t in most places because the roads are blocked by debris and downed trees, and they can’t even get Trucks through without Heavy Equipment clearing the pathways first. Do the Philipinos HAVE tons of Heavy Equipment to motor up and do this? Of course not. So really it falls to our friends the Army Corps of Bozos to ship in and clear all this out of the way for them. Who pays for that? You the Taxpayer of course.

Where does all the Money come for the Rebuild(s)? From Fresh New Loans issued to the Philipinos that get freed up whenever there is a Disaster, but otherwise are unavailable to them. This of course is Broken Window Economic Stimulus in the Krugman Handbook. Problem is, how do the Philipinos ever pay back these new loans, on top of the old loans they got after the last disaster collapsed their infrastructure? How many times can you keep repairing it all? now I think a decent portion of the damage done to the Jersey Shore and Long island from Sandy has been fixed up, though probably the worst hit areas were just Bulldozed and those folks now relocated elsewhere, living with relatives who knows? It is about GUARANTEED though sometime in the next few years the same thing will happen again, and if this insane economic system has not already crashed by then, they’ll do it all over again.

The reality is we can’t have so many peple living so close to the coastline, particularly at or near what USED to be mean Sea Level. This because it is not mean Sea level you gotta worry about, it is how high the Sea Level goes at Peaks. The Flooding events are not gonna happen from a slow creep of an inch or two a year up the beach, they come from when the Peaks get really big and inundate the shoreline a Kilometer or two in at a time. Said Peaks come from big Storm Surges and Tsunamis, and if you have more of both occurring (and you do), low lying areas will be rolled over by the oncoming waves and surf.

In all my growing up years probably until my mid forties I don’t recall a single event like Sandy occurring around my neighborhood, and the Indian Ocean Tsunami in the 90s was the first real big one I remember Globally. Now it seems like we get at least 1 or 2 of these Mega Events every year somewhere around the globe. bottom line of course is that people have to migrate away from the shoreline, at least in terms of Fixed housing and industry. Problem there is, currently this is where MOST of the world population lives! Reason of course is that most commerce depends on Shipping and all the “stuff” people depend on comes in on Container ships that need shore facilities to unload at, and those facilities need people to work in them, who obviously cannot be DRIVING long distances anymore to get to work! Besides that, even if you keep a Skeleton Crew at the Unload point for all the Junk, if the Factories and Konsumers who use the Junk are far inland, then you incur additional costs and use more fossil fuel to move the stuff inward.

So, in the absence of complete economic collapse of the monetary system, you won’t see a RAPID inward migration from the coastlines, and the infrastructure will be rebuilt as many times as they can muster up a new set of Loans creating more new money to Do it All Again, Amen. “I’m a Happy Idiot as I struggle for the Legal Tender” as Jackson Browne so aptly put it.

Although the movement in the near term is probably not going to come Suddenly, it will come inexorably. For people who had their whole lives ripped out from under them when Sandy hit, many do NOT return to their destroyed McMansions and try to rebuild. They become Invisible Refugees of Climate Change, first moving a bit inward to live with Relatives for a while, then eventually relocating somewhere else further in. If they are fortunate, they find New Jobs and restart their lives, but that occurs less and less often these days. Da Goobermint Statistics show ever more people dropping out of the Labor Force, not appearing on Unemployment stats but turning up elsewhere on the SNAP card roles and SSDA recipient lists. This particular Kludge also can only last so long of course. in the Philipines, it is likely you will see another sort of Disapperance, that of Population itself, not just employed people. It is unlikely the MSM reports on it much (in fact the Philipine disaster already has dropped off the lead pages of the MSM), but many more people are likely to go to the Great Beyond there as a result of Disease and Suicide, stuck in a situation that was already quite hopeless, but at least livable. Now the situation is not just Hopeless, but unlivable also. Switching back to a subsistence life for most will be impossible, they will be stuck for months and years in Refugee Camps, and those camps also will be inundated by Typhoons and Tsunamis and Earthquakes. The Earth Giveth, and She Taketh Away, and she is taking it away from the Philipinos faster than in most places of the world right now, but this Show WILL come to a Theater Near You also.

Is there anything YOU personally can do about this problem? Well, if you live on a coastline at or near Sea Level, it would be a wise idea to think about moving NOW, rather than AFTER a disaster actually hits you. Its much easier to make a move while everything around you is functioning than after your home and SUV have been washed out to Sea of course. This is not a choice most Philipinos have, but if you are not already off the economic cliff here, you probably have a car and can Bugout in it to Somewhere Else.

There are of course a few real problems which most people face who currently live in such locations, first if you still HAVE a job, you don’t wanna give it up without having another one to go to. Then there is the problem of UNLOADING your McHovel to another Sucker who will buy the thing. Finally, many if not most people have Family and attachments to the place they grew up and live and they don’t WANT to leave, even if they KNOW eventually they are likely to be REALLY underwater, not just financially so. You Roll the Dice and you repeat the Mantra, “It won’t Happen Here, It won’t Happen to Me and my Family”. If you are LUCKY, it won’t, but the further we go down the road here, the lower your odds get on this one the closer you live to the shoreline.

The only other Option you have is preparing for the Fast Bugout, which only works of course if you get enough WARNING to make that bugout. Big Cyclonic Storms usually come with a few days warning these days, so if you have an SUV and a Bugout Package prepared, in most cases I think you can GTFO of Dodge in time with this type of event. Tsunamis, less so, the Tsunami Warnings are only a few hours in advance most of the time, and if the Quake that caused it is pretty close to you a lot less than that. If you happen to be playing a round of Golf or are busy making the Beast with two Backs with your Significant Other and don’t have a Radio playing, you probably miss the warning anyhow. Some communities do have those big Sirens, but not sure how prevalent they are everywhere. If it is an Earthquake, you get ZERO warning, there still is no method of predicting when a Big Quake will hit your locale, only statistics which say you are due for one in the next decade or something like that. you live AWAY from the shoreline, you still are not SAFE of course, though probably safer in most cases. However, on any given day out in Tornado Alley, the Funnel Clouds can start dropping down around you. As with the Cyclonic Storms on the coastline, usually there is pretty decent warning from NOAA, Jeff Masters on Weather Undergound and your local Weatherman when conditions are right for Tornadoes to hit your neighborhood, and these neighborhoods usually DO have Sirens that go off when Funnel Clouds are spotted. However, you better have your Bugout Machine pre-packed and Ready to Go in this situation, because when those Sirens go off it is usualy only minutes before the Tornadoes start hitting. Then you gotta know which way the weather system is moving so you know which way to GO, and not drive yourself into the middle of the disturbance. Mostly though, even out on the road you can see which way the system is going, and if you DO spot a MONSTER, which way it is going. If it is coming TOWARD you, go the OTHER WAY! FAST! Like Pedal to the Metal fast and don’t worry about the Speeding tickets either! Cars generally can outrun Tornadoes, the Tornado freaks do this all the time capturing the videos.

The bigger problem if you live in Tornado Alley is the Boy Who Cried Wolf problem. Probably 99% of the time when the sirens go off, the Tornado does not touch down on your McHovel. So if every time you hear it you jump in your Bugout Machine and go Running for them thar Hills, this gets a little wearing on you and you stop doing it, choosing instead to just head down to the basement and hope the thing does not land on your House and ship it to Oz. MOST of the time this will WORK, and even if your house does experience SOME damage, it is not flattened and you and the family are fine. You head over to Home Depot, by some plywood and new Windows and go back to BAU after makng the repairs. The problem only comes when the Tornado hits YOUR McHovel as Ground Zero, then not only is your McHovel Flattened but your Bugout Machine has gone to Oz without you, and you are left with NOTHING. So you do have to resist the temptation to complacency on this, not ignore the warnings and Do The Drill as often as it crops up in your Nabe. are other problems to deal with also in almost every spot, Wildfires in Remote Mountainous areas, Flash Floods, Volcanoes etc. Where I live on the Ring of Fire we got plenty of Volcanoes and Anchorage had an Earthquake back in ’64 bigger than the Sendai Quake which sent the Tsunami firing at Fukushima. So, it is a bit of a Dice Roll anywhere you go, but Coastlines have the worst Odds here, and they get steadily worse all the time with each passing year. So if you can evacuate now, this would be a good time to do so. At the very least, if you cannot leave now, know WTF the High Ground is.

For the Philipinos now, I don’t think their choices are much different or better than the Nips living on Honshu Island, even though they don’t have a Nuke poisoning the water supply. They either Evacuate or Die. It’s not going to get any better any time soon in either locale, and a good chance it gets a whole lot worse. Any given day under Fukushima Daichi they can get another big quake that brings down the whole containment facility and all the Radioactive Water Containment Tanks they have built around it now. The ground underlying Japan shakes like a Pole Dancer on Steroids, I have an Earthquake Monitor program on my laptop which shows almost constant 4-5 Mag Quakes under Japan every day. They’ll get another Big One there, it is GUARANTEED. Just a matter of WHEN, and every day they live on Borrowed Time. One can only hope before this occurs they MIRACULOUSLY get all the fuel rods out of there and we don’t see a Super Critical event, because this will do a lot more damage than to just Honshu Island.

In reality of course, MOST Philipinos HAVE NO CHOICE. They can’t leave, they don’t have money for Busfare much less a Plane Ticket out. Where to go that would accept them as Refugees, and what kind of Jobs or economic opportunity is there anywhere else? All they can do here is try to rebuild, long as the AID flows in with money to do so. For the Philipinos, FAST COLLAPSE has already come and gone. May still be Slow and Catabolic in your Nabe, but not for the Philipinos anymore.


Reverse Engineer has been blogging Economic and Energy Issues since 2008, beginning on the website. In 2012, he began the Doomstead Diner Blog & Forum to cover Economics, Energy, Environment and Geopolitical issues related to the ongoing Collapse of Industrial Civilization and its associated Monetary System. Although the Blog Name and RE’s style reflect Gonzo Journalism, the content and purpose are a serious treatment of a complex problem. RE currently resides on The Last Great Frontier of Alaska.


Going Dark is available from the publisher here, from Amazon here, from Amazon on Kindle here, from Barnes & Noble on Nook here, and as a Google e-book here. Going Dark was reviewed by Carolyn Baker at Speaking Truth to Power and by P. Schneider at Amazon. An excerpt follows, but first I will attempt to defuse the trolls: As with my other books, Going Dark will lose money even before I start giving away copies.

Every other nation on Earth doggedly pursues America. As a result, nature has joined Wall Street and every country in the industrialized world in bankruptcy. Thanks for playing, but you lose. The banksters on Wall Street “win,” but only in the very short term. In the long run, we’re all dead (as first stated by British economist John Maynard Keynes). And, in the current case, the long run is rather short.

Among the consequences of taking down a few hundred species each day: at some point, we are the species we take into the abyss. The vanishing point draws nearer every day. Our response, in the industrialized world: Bring on the toys. Burn all fossil fuels. Harvest the rain forests and strip mine the soil. Pollute the water, eat the seed bank. Foul the air.

And, most importantly, figure out how we can make a few bucks as the world burns.


Please take note of the following seminars in Central America. These seminars promise to be life-changing experiences.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 14-day seminar, 12-25 March 2014, Izabal, Guatemala, Central America.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 7-day seminar, 24-31 May 2014, Moho Creek, Belize, Central America.

The Next Step: Living Courageously in a World of Transition, a 14-day seminar, 12-25 June 2014, Izabal, Guatemala, Central America.


GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth will screen totally free, on the Internet, around the world. Join the global conversation before and immediately after the film. For details and an invitation, click here.


Please note the new ad in the Classified section:

Seeking those who seek to share life

Oh you, who hunger for nurturing a life of justice by living in intentional community, I want to share life with you. I hold title to a suburban home and plot in the greater Cleveland, Ohio area, where I am working to foster a space for some of us to live together and support each other. As of this writing, we have plenty of open space in this house for you to live with us, and we also have plenty of need for your help and support as we work to heal and strengthen the broader community.

My vision of justice acknowledges and yearns for the end of the dominant trends of fear, exploitation, and violence, and instead seeks to emphasize the critical importance of interdependence and relationships—all relationships, both among humans and between humans and the Earth and her other inhabitants—with the hope of spreading a resilient and beautiful culture that embraces life and love. Those of us who live in the house now, including myself, attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus for guidance on this path, including particularly his call to live in radical yet joyful poverty and his emphasis on the deep importance of forgiveness (of debt and sin). As well, we turn to him and his example for inspiration and courage.

If you need support for trying to live differently, and if you think this sort of situation would make sense for you (or even if you are simply interested in discussing all this further), please be welcome to contact me, John L. Clark, by email at There are, of course, many reasons why living with us directly might not make sense for you—the most obvious of which being our immediate physical limitations. I still want to share life with you, though, in the broadest sense of community. Please let me know if there is some way that I can support you and help you build a community of support for us all. Please do consider sharing what you have with others and—in love—forgiving them of their sins and debts so that we can put ourselves on a new path.


Thanks to ulvfugl for pointing out a technical fix to the problem of the disappearing comments: “I’m using Chrome browser. Go to top right corner, click three horizontal bars, says ‘new incognito window’, get NBL, and everything is immediately updated. Can’t advise for any other browsers, but I assume it’s something to do with cookies and being tracked, etc, because being anonymous fixes it.”

Thanks to Roger Ellis for this technical tip: “I use Firefox with an extension called ‘CookieKiller.’ The icon will appear in the lower right of the browser window when installed. Click it and it gives you the choice of killing just the NBL cookies or All cookies. When you kill NBL cookies and refresh the page all the comments are updated properly. You don’t have to go into anonymous browsing mode to correct the WordPress cookies from hell bug.”

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Comments 133

  • I’m going to rent myself a house
    In the shade of the freeway
    I’m going to pack my lunch in the morning
    And go to work each day
    And when the evening rolls around
    I’ll go on home and lay my body down
    And when the morning light comes streaming in
    I’ll get up and do it again
    Say it again

    I want to know what became of the changes
    We waited for love to bring
    Were they only the fitful dreams
    Of some greater awakening
    I’ve been aware of the time going by
    They say in the end it’s the wink of an eye
    And when the morning light comes streaming in
    You’ll get up and do it again

    Caught between the longing for love
    And the struggle for the legal tender
    Where the sirens sing and the church bells ring
    And the junk man pounds his fender
    Where the veterans dream of the fight
    Fast asleep at the traffic light
    And the children solemnly wait
    For the ice cream vendor
    Out into the cool of the evening
    Strolls the pretender
    He knows that all his hopes and dreams
    Begin and end there

    Ah the laughter of the lovers
    As they run through the night
    Leaving nothing for the others
    But to choose off and fight
    And tear at the world with all their might
    While the ships bearing their dreams
    Sail out of sight

    I’m going to find myself a girl
    Who can show me what laughter means
    And we’ll fill in the missing colors
    In each other’s paint-by-number dreams
    And then we’ll put out dark glasses on
    And we’ll make love until our strength is gone
    And when the morning light comes streaming in
    We’ll get up and do it again
    Get it up again

    I’m going to be a happy idiot
    And struggle for the legal tender
    Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
    To the heart and the soul of the spender
    And believe in whatever may lie
    In those things that money can buy
    Thought true love could have been a contender
    Are you there?
    Say a prayer for the pretender
    Who started out so young and strong
    Only to surrender

    Jackson Browne

  • This where you are, RE ?

  • All
















  • The end- one candle’s light away
    in shadow,
    waits to strike the hateful wound;
    My death
    waits frozen in eternal time,
    one turning wheel
    how slow.

    That mirrored stranger’s face- someone
    I knew once
    yesterday, reflected in the sea;
    We sailed in dream ships searching for
    the home of wind
    burned friends.

    So young- a soldier polishing
    brass buckles,
    singing songs of unknown wars;
    love’s promise for an instant
    down a shiny
    rifle bore.

    Book unwritten- pages blank until
    I learn,
    so young to see what seeing is;
    Love but
    shadows walking in the night,
    whispered promise
    in the wind.

    Newborn cries- The severed cord
    hangs free;
    A lightning purge in sterile
    flashing steel, by candle light,
    the song of life
    buz painter

    [I wrote this poem in 1968. It is time for it to see the light of day]

    RE- Sorry, I haven’t been over to Doomstead Diner much recently. But it is still there in my bookmarks. Anyway, NBL is the center of reality these days. Scary but real. Climate Change seems to have muscled everything else aside. It has become imminent and in your face, so to speak. Politics, economics and energy depletion become secondary in the face on near-term-human-extinction.

  • Thanks for your thoughts RE. It seems we’re on death watch everyday anymore as the collapse continues via weather, pestilence, resource scarcity, homelessness and vulnerability, the paucity of jobs, radiation, violence, drought or flood, volcanic activity (lots of places experiencing this now), or myriad other sinkholes to drop into unexpectedly. It’s not like we planned for this result – in fact it was supposed to be unstoppable for our lifetimes and those of our progeny. We’re all supposed to live to a hundred or forever if you have the money, according to the MSM anyway.

    It’s amazing how reality wakes people up to the common thought – What was I thinking? – but, of course, too late. I agree that there aren’t many “safe” places in the world any longer. Oh sure, most of us are okay for the moment, until, like lightening (or a tsunami) we find our time is rapidly coming to an end (and all that “stuff” still left to do . . .). We can’t let go and we can’t hold on (Grateful Dead lyric) but we continue the illusion that we’re “safe” to twiddle away our hours in meaninglessness. What a grand illusion it is, too. Full of music, the arts, poetry, the internet, distractions of all kinds, food abundance of no concern, comfort and peace in our homes while all the signs are there telling us “it’s just a matter of time.” We go on ignoring them until one day . . .;_ylt=AiaNbrMfceA8d4xu306h7HObvZx4?fr=yfp-t-900-1-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=the%20wheel%20grateful%20dead

  • Despite the fact things look pretty ugly, I’m not in the NTHE camp, I think we are looking at a big knockdown in the near term, but it will take quite some time to knock off everybody. Well, not if we get a few Super Critical events at various Nukes, but just on the climatalogical level.

    Anyhow, since Poetry is the Theme in the Commentary here, I’ll contribute this one I wrote a couple of weeks ago.

    A Poem of Limits

    The darkness moves beneath my feet,
    More endless battles always ending in defeat.
    Seeking hope in a sea of sadness
    Still I fight onward to find some gladness.

    My heart is broken, so many reasons why
    That offtime it seems it is time to die.
    The endless wars, the endless strife
    Why, o why do I pursue my life?

    The end now so clear in the nearest distance
    Perhaps it is best to go with path of least resistance?
    We live, we laugh, we love, we weep
    No matter what we do, in the end we sleep.

    My wings are broken, my legs are shot
    Ageing takes away those things you got.
    You remember well what once thought true,
    but now what was false has all come due.

    The will for all is to reproduce
    But then, we run up against limits of what we can produce
    There are real limits to what the world can give
    When reached, no way there is that all can live

    So some will live and more will die
    No one can really pin down the reasons why
    One is Gifted and another Cursed
    Why is it one gets the Best, another the Worst?

    So here today I write this letter,
    Because honestly, I do not know which is better.
    To live now, at the expense of my brother
    Or Die now, for the sake of another?

    Is it better to live and make the fight?
    To continue to strive and do what’s right?
    Or call an end to this, and call it quits
    Perhaps that it the end that best befits?

    I’ve walked the Earthly Road a good long time
    Now I am so far past my prime
    What was important to me now long since lost
    Lost forever at incalculable cost.

    The petty things I thought important
    Now just a memory long distant
    Real now is just to live
    To see what still I have left to give.

    There was a time I made the grades
    Future so bright I hadda wear shades
    Now the future seems none too bright
    But in the darkness, perchance to find some light?

    So off we go as our world turns
    Spectators in awe as the world we built now burns
    We look now for something new to glow
    A bit of Land and Food to Grow

    The SUN still rises, not yet gone black
    Though life now seems so desperately out of whack
    Regret not though what now is lost
    Such a life came at an immeasurable cost

    Now comes the time to fix what’s wrong
    To find that place we all belong
    To find again the beauty that is on Earth
    Our beloved Mother who gave us Birth.


    It’s a metaphor for our SUN (Sustaining Universal Needs) Project on the Diner. We’re still working on our website and software for PEN (Permaculture Education Network), probably ready for Grand Opening in a couple of weeks. Stop by the Diner for more information if you’re interested.


  • This situation is very similar to disasters in other countries where US corporations have cut down all the trees (cf. Haiti). “Why do people build their houses right next to mountains that have mudslides?” we ask, dumbfounded. But the reason there are mudslides and other things is that without trees, the soil washes away quite easily. In that regard, disasters like these are not so much “accidents” as the logical conclusion of capitalism; they’re not only what’s to be expected but are externalities: the cost of doing business.

  • It’s all terribly terribly funny. I was reading that Siberian methane release is greater than previously expected. And those kind of reports are becoming so very expected. Massive corporate give-a-ways going on around a world increasingly pressed by ‘climate events of unexpected severity.’ What a joke!

    Greedy, grasping clowns at the controls of the planet and there’s no surprise that ruin and doom surrounds us. It’s a laugh parade. And it is far better to laugh while we can. There are tears aplenty coming soon.

  • Great Essay!!!

    No qualification here.

    If you listen to the Jackson Brown clip, when it finishes, click on the ‘Running on Empty’ song of the options displayed.
    That’s what works for me, running on empty, no other way to go now.
    Leave comments to others.
    Cheers to Guy- I can’t afford the seminars.
    Hope to hook up one day.

  • Just a thought –

    As Guy points out in his summary, 400 ppm CO2 eventually equates to 23 meters of sea level rise. That will put the Fukushima site well under water. Will the coriums still be AWOL? Will they manage to entomb the site in a Chernobyl-style coffin that is eventually submerged?

    Any fissionable material that remains on the site will eventually find its way into the sea.

  • That’s right, WoodsDweller, our ass is is grass! I remember as a kid, seeing news reports of nuclear waste being encased in cement drums and thrown in the ocean. I was maybe 14 years old, in the 60s, and I KNEW the radioactivity would get out eventually.

    The price of an open, curious intellect? Loss of hope!

    WoodsDweller said, “As Guy points out in his summary, 400 ppm CO2 eventually equates to 23 meters of sea level rise. That will put the Fukushima site well under water. Will the coriums still be AWOL? Will they manage to entomb the site in a Chernobyl-style coffin that is eventually submerged?

    Any fissionable material that remains on the site will eventually find its way into the sea.”

    You’re quite astute, WoodsDweller. Well, there you have it. We now have TWO interrelated extinction events revving up to put a stop to all the foolishness.

    I recall a profound statement here on NBL from a few months back that I liked. It went something like this, “Remember those bearded guys in rags carrying a sign that read, ‘THE END IS NEAR!’, they were right!

  • The RE Nuke Waste Disposal Plan

    My idea for Nuke Waste Disposal is to vitrify it, then pack it in specialized Boring Capsules designed with Rifling to make them Spin as they descend into the ocean.

    You drop said capsules over a subduction zone around the Mariannas Trench. On the drop to the floor, they start spinning rapidly due to the rifling. Due to their extreme density, they will accelerate to great speed on the way down. Upon hitting bottom, they will bore themselves down probably a few meters into the rock, depending hour solid it is.

    After that, you pour cement which sinks to the bottom and hardens as a layer to cap over the holes. Eventually the Subduction process brings it further under until it gets melted into the liquid rock and metal core of the earth.


  • My idea for Nuke Waste Disposal is to vitrify it, then pack it in specialized Boring Capsules designed with Rifling to make them Spin as they descend into the ocean.

    Excellent! We’re saved!

  • RE: (from the ol’ Rocky and Bullwinkle Show, as Bullwinkle attempts to pull a rabbit out of his hat, yet again, Rocky exclaims) “That trick never works!”

    The Marianas Trench is very deep so that trying to simply pour cement is unfeasible and secondly, like shooting a bullet into the sea, it wouldn’t matter how much the rifled canisters weighed, they’d become buoyant at these great depths and not have the speed to drill into the bedrock if they ever even reached the bottom. Nice try though. Better than leaving it on the top floor of an unstable building in an active earthquake zone.

    I appreciated your poem, kind of a coming to grips with reality tinged with resolve to do the best one can in the face of it – good stuff.

    Hey, look, I’m not here to rain on anyone’s parade with all the evidence I link to each day showing the steady (and increasing) demise of the biosphere (among other topics) – believe what you want and don’t lose hope if you can. I’ve long ago lost any conception of hope in humanity and thought our fate was sealed after JFK was assassinated (by the CIA) when I was in middle school. We’ve been lied to for so long about so much because business and economics trumped ethics and sapience and now it’s too late to do anything but sit and watch it all unfold as this same ideology is on steroids now.
    I’m sorry for all of it.

    Now we have to stay out of the rain (and snow) – yet, of course it will seep into the groundwater and hence the food supply.

    (this synopsis from seemorerocks which links to the above)

    Radioactive rain gave added meaning to the name of the hottest place on Earth with the lowest elevation in the Western Hemisphere. Excessive manmade radiation like that uncovered by can cause blood and bone cancers, leukemia and genetic mutations

    The rare sustained precipitation tested over 31.5 times normal background radiation levels outside of the the park’s visitor’s center in Furnace Creek November, 23. Earlier in the day rain radiation in Stovepipe Wells 24 miles northwest of Furnace Creek registered 28.7 times


    Atmospheric currents have been and are continuing to spread these cancer/mutation causing particles around the northern hemisphere (and the world, eventually), precipitating them out on our unsuspecting, untested by our vaunted watchdog agencies, environs while we stay distracted by tv and shopping.

    This means we’re breathing them in too, and, since there’s no safe dosage of radiation, the effects are cumulative (because of the half-lives property they have). It’s nice to think that the ocean and air are diluting them so that it’s safe, but it’s been going on for years now and, like CO2, it’s going to have deleterious effects on everything alive.

  • RE

    Not sure if you’re serious. But when your ass is grass anyway, any idea is welcome. Not to be implemented. But at least seriously considered. Was it David Suzuki who suggested blasting the waste into the sun? Can’t recall. No good solutions, unfortunately. At least, not presently.

  • “Excellent! We’re saved!”-RD

    Not quite of course, since actually attempting something like this is not on the radar at the moment.

    However, it behooves nobody to GIVE UP until the Fat Lady Sings.

    Politics will change, economics will change as this spin down proceeds. At any given time, radical change is possible in such a spin down.

    Too late now to save everyone, for sure. I am not foolish enough or deluded enough to think that is possible. However, the outcome is not written in stone, I can argue with Guy on many points on the feedback loops.

    Most will die, this is probable now. I still think it is plausible to stave of Extinction for a while longer than Mid-Century though. Not in perpetuity of course, because we have always been Time-Limited as long as we are trapped on the Earth. The biosphere had a MAXIMUM that might have lasted another 200-500M years, best case scenario. Everything Dies at some point.

    You wanna QUIT? Feel free. Not me. I don’t give it up until I am well and truly dead. End of Story.


  • “Was it David Suzuki who suggested blasting the waste into the sun?”-AL

    No idea who came up with that idea, but it is completely impractical. The tonnage that would have to be pulled up into Earth orbit is probably beyond what we could put together in terms of rocket fuel at this point.

    Then there is the likelihood at least a couple of these rockets go the way of the Challenger on the way Up, which of course would be none too good atmospherically speaking.

    Going DOWN rather than UP, you use GRAVITY to do the work. WORST case scenario here, the capsules don’t embed properly in the subduction zone, but they STILL would put most of the radioactive material in the very DEEPEST part of the ocean, where very little lives anyhow. No sunlight down there, the only things that survive are life forms that live off of Sulfurous emmisions from undersea volcanoes and vents. These are not critical life forms to the general biosphere, which exists in a layer from maybe 300 meters below sea level to perhaps 3 miles above. So if something has to be sacrificed here, this would be the logical place to go.

    I am quite serious. I think this is the only plausible disposal method we have now for the tonnage of this sort of waste we have created.


  • @RE
    Lots of good things in your article. You show your passion and compassion. That’s good, it makes you a real Mensch. It also shows you have life in you and that you’re not suicidal. I’m not either.
    But I think you confuse quitting with being realistic. Please contemplate these words to understand the difference. If you do get it, it will feel better. It takes most people (me included) decades to become lucid enough to know the difference (become discerning).
    Your idea of rifled containers etc sounds very clever, but to me like one of those crazy ideas they’re dreaming up to fix the “environment”. Geo-engineering, a rather hubristic term in by book… But what do I know about it, I’m only a woman with a completely “non-engineering” mind.

  • Its just a matter of time now that the news from Siberia is confirmed. We are now starring in a current version of “On the Beach” or “Soylent Green”. Thanks for trying, Doc.

  • To Reverse engineering
    Good ideas rarely perform as expected. There are always so many aspects left out. Nature and its mechanisms is very complex. So a lot of experiment will be requiered to develope a practical solution, and probably many failures should be expected. Fukushima itself is a sample on how things do not work as expeceted, even with all possible events considered. And many years of technical development.
    This is the main reason of why geo engineering will not become “THE”solution. Developing any technical solution is not so simple. It will requiere a long time, that we do not have already.
    There is no “magic bullet”.
    Serendipty may help a bit, but we cannot rely on that.
    But I still believe that there will a way through for some of us.

  • The United States is spewing 50 percent more methane — a potent heat-trapping gas — than the federal government estimates, a new comprehensive scientific study says. Much of it is coming from just three states: Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas.

  • This is my last attempt to publish the comment below, after repeated assurances (by a machine voice?) that it had already been published:

    “RE – Given that we only have a few more years before the house of cards called industrial civilization comes tumbling down, I can’t believe that the ptb have any intention to spend their megabucks on your fanciful scheme. Our “leaders” are more into building luxury fallout shelters for their own precious hides than doing anything for the rest of us disposable beings. The number one criterion for those with the money and power to do large scale projects continues to be: will this give me more power and money? Lacking a guarantee of those immediate rewards, the ptb will continue to kick the global survival can down the yellow brick road…”

  • Message to Mike K.

    Watch this video for further clarification to your question:

  • @FriedrichKling – I watched a bit of the clip, but since I have no sound now on my pc, I couldn’t grok much of the show. Could you give me a hint what goes with it?

  • Do rocks become bouyant as they sink? Of course not. If rocks got more bouyant down at depth, you would have a layer of floating rocks, which you don’t have. Water is incompressible, that is why hydraulics work. The specific gravity doesn’t change significantly under pressure.

    So the capsules would make bottom. At the very least, this is a better spot than up here in the biosphere layer, eh?

    Will our current leadership undertake such a project? Of course not. Fortunately, our current leaders will follow the monetary system to the Great Beyond in fair short order once it crashes. Think the Romanoffs or Marie Antoinette, on a much larger scale of course.

    Anyhow, as Bluto so eloquently put it, “Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?”


  • RE: it’s not plausible for the same reason sending it up poses, overcoming forces requires energy. Buoyancy will occur before your canisters get anywhere near that far down due to the pressures at those depths compared to the weak gravitation involved, so after a while they’d be like an oak leaf drifting as it falls, but slower due to the increased density of the medium. After a while they’d be practically suspended they’d be falling so slowly. The amount of energy needed to push that much material into the bedrock that far down would make the project impossible.

    The people in charge have no intention of getting rid of this waste for precisely this reason – it’s too expensive. So they just let it sit around (all over the world, this is the case). The little video I posted this morning above claims that the only reason to have a nuclear power plant is, economically speaking, to produce bomb material, for every other reason it loses money.

    i remember protesting Three Mile Island when it was being built – the government never should have allowed this to happen because they can’t safely “dispose of” the waste (because it’ll be around giving off radiation for tens of thousands of years no matter where we put it).

    Japan has just decided to continue to dump the radioactive water directly into the Pacific Ocean recently because they can’t contain it any more. For this reason, and the fact that the world isn’t up in arms about it, indicates that some permutation of your idea will probably be resorted to if we ever get that far before industrial civilization collapses before hand. It’s just another geo-engineering attempt, albeit one of our own making. Our track record isn’t stellar in this regard, so I’d be pleasantly surprised if anything we did actually worked at this point.


    – JP Morgan–Jamie Dimond (sp), CEO. (Main investor in fossil fuels)

    – Other major Wall Street Banks

    – Monsanto

    – Various arms manufacturing corporations

    – Major fossil fuel corporations–Shell, Exxon, BP and cetera.

    There are many more, but these are among the most prominent sociopaths. Each is the target of some level of protest and oppositions, but not enough, if anything, is being done to look at this opposition as a systematic whole. For starters, it should be easy to find out who runs the companies listed.

  • Going UP you are overcoming forces, going DOWN you are allowing the forces to overcome you. aka, what goes up, must come down.

    Insofar as “gravity being weaker” down there, the diameter of the earth is 7,918 miles. The maximum depth of the Marianas Trench is around 6.83 miles. Gravitational force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the centers of mass. The centers get closer, gravitational attraction INCREASES, not decreases. However, it is not a very large percentage change .1% or so will not make a significant difference.

    Bouyancy has nothing to do with pressure, just the difference in specific gravity between 2 materials. Water has a specific gravity defined as 1 at 0 degrees C. Raise the temperature, it decreases some to around .7 or so, however it is not too much warmer than that as you drop to the ocean floor.

    By contrast, Plutonium has a specific gravity around 19.84, roughly 20 times the density of water. Uranium 18.7. This shit is not going to float in anything but Mercury. LOL. Check that, it won’t float in Mercury either, it only has a specific gravity of 13.6.

    Anyhow, depending how streamline you design it, your downward travelling missile will reach some terminal velocity as it descends, due to friction and cavitation effects. I’ll ballpark it at maybe 100 mph. So a very dense object hits a less dense one at this speed, it will penetrate some. How much I don’t know. Still better than keeping it around up here in the biosphere level.


  • @Artleads

    When I was a younger man, I used to think if only someone would take out the Jamie Dimonds or Koch brothers of the world things would be better. Unfortunately, there are many more just like them willing and waiting to step in. There always has been.

  • When you were a younger man, you didn’t think like Robespierre, clearly.


  • Al Gore Goes Vegan, Following In Footsteps Of Bill Clinton

    From the article:

    “…since he has previously said that he has been slowly reducing his meat consumption over the past few years because of his concern about climate change, we can only assume that he’s gotten more serious (and perhaps guilt-ridden) about how his purchases of meat and dairy products are hurting the planet.”

    I’ve been no great supporter of Mr. Gore’s political, placating, toned down, yuppie pleasing glacial approach to catastrophic climate change. But, now that he’s not putting his meat where his mouth is… perhaps he deserves some reconsideration. And respect… for his recent dietary discoveries anyway. Hey, better late than never… well… hmmm… (not always) Oh well, we might as well die off with some vitality. Aye? Maybe it will be a little less depressing. You know, like a real ‘Happy Meal’. If Big Al’s any indicator, maybe we’re finally beginning to lose our taste for death.

  • Unfortunately, there are many more just like them willing and waiting to step in. There always has been.

    But that’s not it. There have probably always been a percentage of individuals with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies, and they could either be encouraged or eradicated.

    But it’s when they get put in charge of their own ‘army’, so to speak, that they become dangerous, because a corporation or a bank is, in a sense, an army, a mechanism for raiding and pillaging and looting. And these mechanisms, these structures, did not always exist, they were invented, they were thought out and created.

    So, they could be abolished. They could be made illegal and dissolved with the stroke of a pen, just as they were made legal with the stroke of a pen, by governments and kings.

    The trouble is, that, during war, States, nations, countries, need industry and factories to manufacture weapons and all the equipment for war, guns, ships, planes, tanks, rockets, nuclear bombs. And it takes a long time to get geared up. So, they are afraid to let those facilities die in peace time. So they have to keep giving contracts to keep the companies alive. And that soon takes on a life of its own, and then there’s a motive to start wars, to test out the systems. And the bankers love all that because it’s all very profitable.

    But say you wanted to close all these banks and corporations. Who is going to do it ? The supreme courts of the countries ? The politicians ?

    At one time these corporations were invented to loot the world as ways to provide tax revenue for governments and kings. But then they escaped from the leash. They became trans-national. They can be based anywhere. They don’t have loyalty to any nation.

    That’s why they don’t give a shit about fracking the hell out of N. America. Do you think that the CEOs and the bankers who get the big money out of fracking care what happens to the people of USA, or the water table or the future of that land ? They can live anywhere on the planet. They’ve got their own islands and luxury yachts.

    You see, a multinational corporation now is like a pirate ship, grabbing anything that’s available, and they’ll keep on until nothing is left, becoming ever more vicious, corrupt and ruthless as the competition becomes more intense and desperate.

    There’s a story of Viking pirates who went to the Mediterranean, and found some walled town they wanted to rob, and so they told the inhabitants that they were Christian and that one had died could they have a funeral and bury him in the church cemetery ? and the foolish townspeople opened the gate and let them in, because they were unarmed, and once inside they opened the coffin which contained all their swords, and they slaughtered and raped and looted the place…

    That’s what corporations do. That’s the basic strategy. They buy or blackmail the top politicians and officials and then rip off the resources. Confessions of an Economic Hitman type of thing.

    So who is going to make a law that dissolves all the corporations, or imposes strict standards of conduct even ? Nobody has the power to do it. Russia and China have done a good job of keeping control over their own, but they are just as ruthless and destructive as any others.

    The 700 American ones are those trying to get the Pacific and Atlantic Free Trade Treaties, which means they’ll be able to do whatever they please, which will be a catastrophe for everyone.

    The problem isn’t the evil individuals, it’s the evil structures and the financial systems that enable them, and they are all now pretty much beyond anyone’s control.

    But, imo, it would still be nice to have lists of names, because just like the Nazi war crimes, they should be held accountable for what they are doing, even if they cannot be prevented from doing it.

  • To RE
    Let´s check some of the points about your proposal.
    Glass, and any rock type material has a specific weight of about 2.4 to 3, and under water, because of buoyancy, they will weight 60-70% of it´s weight out of water. As salt water has a specific weight of 1.025, they will sink anyway. Add plutonium and other heavy materials. So the containers will sink.
    At the bottom of the trench with low temperatures, water will have a slightly higher density (within a 1% change), so things will be slightly lighter than at surface, but at the same time, pressure will reduce the size of the container, thus reducing buoyancy. Probably this counterbalancing effects will cancel each other.
    Other point, and this requires some more complex analysis, is the speed of impact, after a 10 kmts free fall under water. Will they resist impact?. Are there any rocks at the bottom?, as far as the Trieste saw down there, there are no rocks, but on the other hand it covered a very small area (it stayed there only 20 minutes). If there is sand or something like that, how deep will the container penetrate by the momentum gained? What is the cutting resistance of the bottom?
    How about currents? Currents along the way any of them will deviate the containers.
    Then is the pressure, 1100 Kg/cm2 (16 Kips), plus the forces due to impact. The container requires careful design, to withstand impact force+pressure to assure that they will not crack. Testing facilities to reproduce all this factors are not ready available. Besides there is a big lack of information about the site. The question about the condition of the bottom is very hard to answer. Robs may help, that should be designed and built for the purpose.. They are not available.
    As I said before, there are too many factors under the category of unknown. Nothing serious can be designed without the necessary information.
    Then the container itself imply another bunch of solutions to be developed. Materials selection, the way waste will be installed. How it will be sealed, how it will be made. And has to be strong enough to resist bottom conditions.
    I do not know if throwing all this nuclear waste , with such amount of uncertainties well worth the effort. To me sounds like putting something under the rug. And in that case, I prefer to know what is happening after disposal.
    This simple analysis shows my point that all things are much complex than they seem at first sight. Nature is complex. Too complex I would say. A lot of investigation is required, then a lot of engineering, and then a lot of testing, and probably a lot of failures. And after all, unexpected issues may appear.

  • Mike-

    Gov. Ventura traveled to the Ozarks where he discovered HUGE subterranean facilities being built by a consortium of private individuals and the government. These facilities encompass hundreds of thousands of square feet comprising self-sufficient small cities complete with mini-nuclear reactors for energy, oil storage, hydroponics, sleeping quarters, and everything else you can imagine . As Ventura observed, all that needs to finish the project is for the tremendous reinforced steel doors to be welded shut.

  • Matt Taibbi’s “Winners of the ‘Chase Twitter Fail’ Haiku Contest

    The winners get a Jamie Dimon “Greedy Bastard” t-shirt

    Psychopaths like Dimon can’t really be killed, they’re like jellyfish, the individual cells of a jellyfish, after you kill the jellyfish itself, simply each regenerate back into whole new jellyfishes.

    “….Another excellent Eastern-style poem – it has that inscrutable, “I’m not sure what the fuck it means, but Richard Gere will sure think it’s deep!” quality that you’re looking for with this kind of verse..”

    was written by “Harry Towns”:

    If Dimon is forever
    He will have time to rape space
    Where his laughs aren’t heard

  • I think if in 1960 they could build a bathyscape to bring PEOPLE down to the bottom of the trench, it would not be technically difficult to build a missile which holds no airspace at all and is basically incompressible down to the bottom.

    Currents etc could be managed with a rudder and fins controlled from above by sonar, or a fiber optic cable unrolling on the drop, or an onboard microprocessor could do it.

    As for making it hard enough to withstand the impact without breaking up, I am pretty sure a casing a few feet thick of depleted uranium and tungsten-carbide would do the trick.

    You could test the system with a Dummy Load, drop it and see if it holds together and embeds reasonably well. Drop in some sensors to relay feedback on impact stresses if it doesn’t hold together, then back to the design board. I am sure the petroleum engineers doing deep water drilling are up to the task. Let these guys do some good for a change, eh?

    Additionally, prior to dropping the Nuke Puke, they could drop down some MASSIVE conventional explosives missiles to “soften up” the landing site, enabling the Nuke Puke missiles to embed deeper.

    Are there technical challenges here? Of course there are, but then, do you have a BETTER IDEA? Leaving up here on the surface in the main biosphere isn’t too smart, and trying to fire it UPWARDS way too energy intensive and dangerous too boot.

    It’s the best of the alternatives available.


  • From JFK speech:

    “Let us examine our attitude toward peace itself. Too many of us think it is impossible. Too many think it unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable – that mankind is doomed – that we are gripped by forces we cannot control.

    We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade – therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man’s reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable – and we believe they can do it again.”

    Appears that we ARE gripped by forces we cannot control.

  • RE: thanks for the detailed explanation. Like I said, if the Japanese have been and are going to continue to use the Pacific as a nuclear waste depository then I guess every other nuclear country can now feel free to do the same. Wave goodbye to marine life.

    Off topic but relevant:

    Monsanto, the TPP, and Global Food Dominance

    “Control oil and you control nations,” said US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger in the 1970s. ”Control food and you control the people.”

    Global food control has nearly been achieved, by reducing seed diversity with GMO (genetically modified) seeds that are distributed by only a few transnational corporations. But this agenda has been implemented at grave cost to our health; and if the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) passes, control over not just our food but our health, our environment and our financial system will be in the hands of transnational corporations. (read the rest – it’s stunning)

    [Gee, what could possibly go wrong?]

    dmd: agreed

  • @Kling – Wow! That would be the first underground gated community. Paranoia goes off the charts for the uber rich…

    @RE – I have a better idea. We just put the money and know-how into Kurtzweil’s robot successors to squishy humans, and voila! No more radiation problems for our tin can progeny… Dreams and schemes on the beach of doom. NASA assures us we can just trash this planet to our heart’s content, then soar off to some other world to repeat the process there….

  • So this whole dropping things into the ocean thing is not about buoyancy, it’s about terminal velocity. Terminal velocity is the point where the resistance of a fluid, be it air or water, balances the acceleration of gravity. For example, a belly down, spread eagle falling human reaches terminal velocity at about 122 MPH through the atmosphere. It depends both on the density of the object and the density of the fluid.

    The forces move into balance in the form of an asymptotic approach. Acceleration gradually slows as the the object comes closer to terminal velocity

    A thing of uranium and steel would drop rather fast through air, not so much through water. Even a bullet, fired into the water, is rendered harmless after a few feet. That has nothing to do with the terminal velocity of the bullet but says a lot about the amount of drag water, as a fluid, puts on a metal object. The amount of drag has everything everything to due with terminal velocity.

    Buoyancy only enters into the picture if there is enough to make a difference. Which in this case there is not.

  • @friedrichKling- I live in the Ozarks and have been thinking about that particular conspiracy theory with much interest. Some years ago while looking for property to buy we accidentally came across a very suspicious facility on a dirt road with a tall fence and barbed wire surrounding it. There were several warehouse type buildings with rail sidings. The whole place seemed abandoned.


  • The geniuses at the Pentagon sent two strategic bombers (capable of nuclear strikes) directly into an airspace which the Chinese have just declared an “air defense identification zone” in which non-compliance with Chinese rules would trigger “emergency defensive measures”, and to make sure to inflict the maximal amount of loss of face on China they have essentially mocked the Chinese for not taking any measure.

    I would qualify all these actions as criminally reckless and phenomenally stupid.

    That last line sums up US foreign policy, really. And domestic policy, come to think of it.

  • Warm air brings rain
    on to partially iced over ponds.
    Frogs try ice skating.
    Funny that.

  • Most people will not stop using fossil fuels as long as they have access to them. It does not matter who is in charge. Science has been warning us on a regular basis since the 1980s. Most people have chosen not to listen. Therefore, our species has made our choice. It’s who and how we are.

  • (continuing from a previous thread)
    @Paul Chefurka – Your analysis of group behavior is right on. However it is based on past performance, and seems to assume that these patterns will continue unchanged into the human future – what there may be of it. I am one of those that Ulvfugl speaks of: a dreamer, artist, mystic, wild, crazy, creative, etc. I can imagine our world becoming caught up in a quasi-religious save the planet movement that would embrace voluntary simplicity, pacifism, egalitarianism, etc. with a world transformative fervor.

    What are the odds of something like that happening? Don’t ask. Those who entertain such dreams are obviously not REALISTS. An overdose of realism makes one incapable of really creative visioning. What are the odds that this reality we are all experiencing is actually arising within the consciousness of a Great Intelligence Who is the essence of Love and Wisdom? And yet the cream of profound Indic philosopher/mystics after centuries of profound study and meditation concluded exactly that. Further they taught; I am That (Supreme Being), You are That, All of this is That, and there is nothing other than That. In addition they pointed out that anyone who followed their directions (Yogic practice) could confirm their findings for themselves. Far out? You betcha. Who said the deep meaning of Existence would be easily revealed by surface appearances or logical inferences or physical experiments…

    Will any of the above truth help humankind to pull out of its long nosedive into oblivion? Who knows? But the game is afoot, and ordinary means are failing us right and left. Maybe a black swan or two is in order. There are those trying to accomplish something in not familiar directions. In my opinion based on my own experience it is too early to conclude how things will work out for us in the days to come. I prefer to remain open to the energies of the unknown. There is more meaning and power in the Kosmos than we yet appreciate…

  • @ the RE Disposal Conversation

    I am not an engineer, etc., so I have no idea if this is a technically viable plan or not.

    What came to my thoughts as I read your ideas was that you have deemed this part of the earth and the creatures that live there expendable. You think of all places and creatures,

    “if something has to be sacrificed here, this would be the logical place to go.”

    And who are you to make that determination? Who are you to say those creatures and that part of Earth is less worthy to be saved, to be left in peace? Who are you to say that this sacred life and its world is not as valuable as “the main biosphere” to be worthy of being left in tact, to be worthy to remain whole and un-raped and un-ruined by human stupidity? And what do you REALLY know about those creatures, and that place on the planet, and how it functions and contributes to the whole? And I mean The Whole.

    Imagine that you are seeing Earth from a great distance. You see the colors, not the tiny moving, breathing, living beings. Now imagine your body is the Earth, a living being. (The Earth, like our body, is a whole living being, like you, but bigger, older, wiser, btw.) We humans and all of life on the surface are the tiny microbes and creatures which are invisible from a great distance. Imagine that we, call us the namuhs, are a little parasite (or whatever), reproducing like crazy, taking over all the space, making a great mess of things, and killing off everything in our path. One of our effects is generating a lot of poison. Us namuhs decide to gather all of the worst of the poison (as if we could) and place it in some great crevice on the body, in a place that we don’t currently have a use for, of course, attempting to burrow it below the skin surface. Imagine we were successful. We throw a giant decadent, hedonistic party, then return to business as usual. Now namuhs might get a little, tiny bit longer, in the grand scheme of things, before we finish destroying the surface of our world and ourselves. And now our Great Disposal Plan has penetrated poison into the purest depths, into the interior of the body, our planet, deep into our mother. You think she doesn’t notice? Mothers, bodies, planets are generally very tolerant, but they don’t appreciate being mistreated, and they can only take so much.

    Listen, I want to find crazy, fantastic, brilliant solutions, too. When I first read Guy’s Climate Summary a couple of months ago I spent my days brainstorming, trying to find a way…fast! I kept thinking, there has got to be a few years, a year, months, days, seconds, anything, left, to do something! But then I played it all out and realized, it’s over.

    I don’t want us to ruin this beautiful world. For many reasons, which I feel no need to enumerate or defend, I still hold onto an infinitesimal sliver of hope that solutions can be found, that the truth will prevail, that people will rise up with the awareness of the sacredness of life and protect it from destruction, and that gradually humanity will transform our way of life, reduce our population, mitigate the climate chaos, and live in peace. I admit it.

    But I am quietly preparing in every way I can think of for what looks like the near term collapse and death of almost everything we’ve known. If this is wrong, if it does not come to pass and some make it through a “bottleneck” as I’ve seen it described here, than whatever simple actions I have taken will support whatever/whoever is still here. As this fellow is doing:

    So, RE, if your antidote to despair is to keep brainstorming for solutions, go ahead and do that. I respect that. The problem with this particular idea, aside from the technical logistics, is – well, to use a quote attributed to Einstein:

    “The thinking it took to get us into this mess is not the same thinking that is going to get us out of it.”

    This idea, involving “sacrificing” something YOU deem less worthy so you can protect your own interests, well it’s the whole patriarchal fantasy, isn’t it? Drill your projectile into the earth and deposit the poison ‘over there’ in that obviously useless area, with those obviously less valuable life forms. Not even much of a sacrifice, really, since we haven’t found any use for them yet. And we all know that the Earth itself (herself), the layers of sand and rock and magma, is just a bunch inert matter, right? Worthless, except for what we want to do with it, of course.

    You’ve been down that road, you know where it goes.

    Besides all of that, when tsreallyhtf, these kinds of creatures might just be among the few survivors. So, again, have some respect!

  • ogardener: thanks for the chuckle

    Jesse Schultz: I appreciate the explanation. There’s a lot wrong with the plan, from Christy’s view above to the limitations pointed out by you and others approaching the task from different perspectives, and finally to RE’s “just sayin'” his take on some kind of solution to the problem of nuclear waste that he didn’t cause but doesn’t want to sit by while the problem gets worse for people. This is always the case – we decide based on human-centric values while the other life-forms around us are just one with the planet. All our decisions are going to entail these slippery ethical issues for those of us who want to prolong this experience as long as possible. Before long it will become near impossible to survive in the “new” environment and civilization will dwindle. I can’t even imagine wanting to exist in a depleted, poisoned world full of zombies stumbling toward death.

  • Christy……. +1.

    I’m thinking, if there is time, of finding a cave somewhere and carving the following words:

    If there are any human beings left, kill them before they breed.

    200 species a day…..the planet should get a better break than we’re giving it.

  • @ mike k

    There are, of course, some people who have a different view..

    Neoreactionaries believe “The Cathedral,” is a meta-institution that consists largely of Harvard and other Ivy League schools, The New York Times and various civil servants. Anissimov calls it a “self-organizing consensus.” Sometimes the term is used synonymously with political correctness. The fundamental idea is that the Cathedral regulates our discussions enforces a set of norms as to what sorts of ideas are acceptable and how we view history – it controls the Overton window, in other words.

    The name comes from Yarvin’s idea that progressivism (and in his view, even today’s far right Republicans are progressive) is a religion, and that the media-academic-civil service complex punishes “heretical” views.

  • Mike K @ 12:20 and all others, thanks for the great comments.

    Last week Christy’s link to the conference of scientists over Fukushima “assembled the facts.” They confirm what we know vaguely, while also clarifying through the scientific method much that we would not have known. The conference was organized by Helen Caldecott (sp)and lends power to resistance through the clear assembling of the facts. The facts on sociopathic corporations are also important to

    It seems better to look at what’s happening already, and try to work with, around or against (or to improve) it instead of coming up with bright new ideas. Assembling and systematizing resistance efforts appears to trump coming up with new ones. Working with what already exists inevitably leads to profound innovation that involves wide social participation.

  • This link is related with nuclear waste reprocessing. The French experience. If somebody wants to dig a little bit deeper into the issue

  • “There’s a lot wrong with the plan, from Christy’s view above to the limitations pointed out by you and others approaching the task from different perspectives, and finally to RE’s “just sayin’” his take on some kind of solution to the problem of nuclear waste that he didn’t cause but doesn’t want to sit by while the problem gets worse for people. ”

    It’s not the people, its the whole BIOSPHERE.

    99% of all life on earth exists in a VERY THIN layer which goes from about 100m below Sea Level to about 5000 meters above Sea Level.

    If you leave this poison in this part of the earth system, you likely poison 99% of Life on Earth.

    Drop it down to the very bottom of Davey Jones Locker where less than 1% of creatures of any type live, you poison a LOT less of life on Earth.

    SOMETHING is going to get poisoned now, this is inevitable. Would you rather it be 99% of Living things or 1% of Living things?


  • Not so much as “refugees” of Climate Change but more so “victims” of Climate Change. My spouse’s boss sent me a disturbing email this morning. She had been down in Nebraska to take part in the yearly deer hunting season at the ranch on which she grew up. Every year she goes down and helps her mom cook and take care of some ten to fourteen deer hunters for the week. To her disappointment and horror, 60% of Nebraska’s deer population have been lost to EHD… Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease. I had to go to wikipedia to read up on it. Anyhow, there’s a mite that transmits the disease. I have a feeling (non-scientific) that this “biting midge” has gained a footing on these deer due to warming temps. I could be wrong. I’ll have to read up on it further. Anyhow, my friend said that only FOUR of the twelve hunters “bagged” a deer this season… down from ALL having gone home with a deer just a year ago. Is the loss of life planet-wide taking off this fast?! I fear that we are only seeing the beginning of this unfolding nightmare. I”m SO frickin’ frustrated by those I speak with in my personal life who don’t want to admit to what’s going on. I just read one other disturbing article on Amongst many other threatened species… butterflies now also seem to be disappearing on a massive scale. Here is the link to the article.

    I would’ve said at one point to enjoy reading this article, but I am sick to my stomach. I really do agree that we are f-cked! Damn it…..


  • @Reverse Engineer

    That’s some sound reasoning you present. Much appreciated!

    I agree that a bottleneck is inevitable, but NTE doesn’t seem to be set in stone. I also agree that though there doesn’t seem to be much progress as of yet, radical policies will eventually be realized as the severity of the situation becomes apparent, and directly impacts more people’s daily lives.

  • @Ulvfugl – These neoreactionaries seem like nothing more than oligarchic fascists. Intellectual apologists for the ruling elite. They are simply mouthpieces for the sickness of our age. Technology for them is only a means to enable their perverted fantasies of world domination. As the psychosis of the world increases in intensity all sorts of deviant behaviors and movements will tend to spring up, each claiming to have a unique solution to all problems. Their fundamentalist believers will be immune to reason or criticism on the grounds of ethical sanity. Some of them will be so crazy that they will make Hitler, Stalin, and Mao look relatively sane. Beware of false prophets. Our situation is so desperate and inherently unbalanced that many will grasp at straws of the most absurd complexion. Maintaining inner balance will be centrally important in the coming chaos. Only those with an inner compass will be able to navigate the turbulent waters we are entering now…

  • Our incapacity, as individuals, to see the forest is the biggest fault of our modern society. We live only for ourselves. WE have rights. To understand the complexities of nature, we need to work as teams, add experiences, add knowledge, for the benefit of the group. But we do not even know the name of our neighbor.
    Holistic is the clue, not a culture that promotes a bunch of disconnected specialist, that know nothing about something else. They just do their job without questions. To reverse this culture seems to me impossible, on time.

  • Clinging to existence brings great unhappiness. It imprisons the experience. Its a drag. It stops free flow. Its tiresome. It does no good to stiffen up. How can you play? Being relaxed, accepting, undemanding… magically enables simple appreciation. Every breath can be a refreshing mountain breeze. Let angry clouds thunder and flash, dance in the rain and slurp a sweet drop or three. Let expectations vanish… Voila! Miracles appear everywhere. Without effort. A rigid person stands in the avalanche, wanting its course to alter. Wanting control. Swatted. Squished. Anyway. Silly to ask an avalanche for salvation. Alive, then dead. Stop tugging, that isn’t a rip cord… there is no parachute. Everything is falling. Stop clinging. Stop fussing. Nothing is permanent. Anicha. Soon all of us will be gone. Squished. Emancipate the moment. Stop clinging to it. Let it live.

  • “radical policies will eventually be realized as the severity of the situation becomes apparent, and directly impacts more people’s daily lives”

    Yes. And the radical polices will be genocide, water seizure and summary executions of anyone the State is unhappy with. AND then things will get really bad….

    On a happier note: Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US. Be sure to BUY NOTHING on Friday, and spend some time off with your family. Everyone else, have a nice Thursday.

  • What are the odds that this reality we are all experiencing is actually arising within the consciousness of a Great Intelligence Who is the essence of Love and Wisdom? And yet the cream of profound Indic philosopher/mystics after centuries of profound study and meditation concluded exactly that.

    What is arising is conditional, dependent on the real as a snake misperceived in a dimly lit rope borrows its reality/existence from the rope. The “we”/”I” is part of the arising.

    What we are experiencing is a construct in awareness. When we see a “flower”, what we are seeing is sunlight modified to a certain configuration. This configuration is compared to memories of prior configurations and labelled “flower”. A construct is formed that there must be some “thing” in another construct called “out there” that is a “flower”. When this jibes with inputs from touch and olfaction, it further solidifies the construct.

    Further they taught; I am That (Supreme Being), You are That, All of this is That, and there is nothing other than That.

    Love and wisdom arises when there is an “other”. Existence-awareness-bliss is without an “other”.

    The Four Great Sayings (chaturmahavakya): (one from each of the four Vedas)

    Reality is Existence-Awareness-Bliss
    The Self is Existence-Awareness-Bliss
    Thou art That
    I am Existence-Awareness-Bliss

    “There is nothing other than That” (sarvam khalvidam brahman) is attributed to Shankharacharya.

  • @ Pilot

    There is an annual butterfly event that happens in spring where I live. For couple of days you would have these pale yellow-greenish butterflies flutter through the air all day, like petals dropping from cherry trees in bloom, it is kind of surreal. Well used to be, did not happen this year. I dunno if it will be back next year 😐

    Hang on, beach bum, hang on…



    @ logospirit

    Anicha. Soon all of us will be gone. Squished. Emancipate the moment. Stop clinging to it. Let it live.



    @ ulvfugl in response to comment on November 21st, 2013 at 7:15 am

    You see, when R. Datta posts these statements about ananda and nirvana and bliss and so forth, imo, they only add confusion for most english speakers. The names in the original languages are technical terms referring to something quite specific discovered by ‘meditation’, which is itself a totally inadequate word to translate the original terms.

    We all live in our own universes, where words have very personal meanings. Specially words which are dealing with such non-objectively observable or quantifiable entities / activities.

    Each word has unique meaning and connotations unique to each person. It takes a lifetime to create these dictionaries and languages and with each person a language goes extinct, an entire universe full of realities never to be realized again. The beauty of the dance is absolute.

    I genuinely do not think this is possible.

    Sorry for the delayed response, I was trying to stop smoking. The withdrawal was quite severe. I have succeeded, but no joy. It does not feel like I have accomplished anything, frankly I feel emptier. Maybe after a few days it would feel better. Dunno, lets see 😐


    Smile and wave boys. Cute and cuddly. Smile and wave ;P

    To the fiddle!

  • “@Reverse Engineer

    That’s some sound reasoning you present. Much appreciated!”-JS

    Thanks JS.

    It is basically Mr. Spock reasoning.

    “The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the One (or in this case few).”

    Ideally, I would like every living thing to have Equal Opportunity at survival here, but that is no longer an Option on the Table.

    We are already well into an ELE, now it is a Triage problem.

    As one of my Tag Lines goes on the Diner, “You Cannot Save Them All. You Can Only SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN.”

    There are extraordinarily few living things that deep into the Ocean. No Light penetrates there. The only life that does exist is Sulfur based and exists only around Active Volcanic Vents. You can even avoid dropping near those vents, and do the best you can not to poison them either.

    Anyhow, nobody has ever dished me out a BETTER solution that is at least in Theory technically possible with current engineering capability, so I will continue to promote this as the Best Possible Solution in a Morton’s Fork.


  • @ Reverse Engineer

    Your solution is really good, logically, it makes sense. Congratulations on a problem well solved within the given constraints.


    @ All & specially Guy

    Thank you.

    It is Thanksgiving after all 🙂


  • From the essay: “For the Philipinos now, I don’t think their choices are much different or better than the Nips living on Honshu Island.”

    “Nips”? I’m not sure why I have to be ‘treated’ to such a derogatory, racist term. What make this author think he can just casually drop in such a word. I didn’t much like the whole tone and style of the piece in any case – glib, trying way too hard to be conversational, not much depth of thought or content – and then “Nips”. Yuk

  • @ KK, mike k

    We all live in our own universes, where words have very personal meanings. Specially words which are dealing with such non-objectively observable or quantifiable entities / activities.
    Each word has unique meaning and connotations unique to each person. It takes a lifetime to create these dictionaries and languages and with each person a language goes extinct, an entire universe full of realities never to be realized again. The beauty of the dance is absolute.

    My point, ( Re R. Datta, ananda, nirvana, etc.) was that originally, 2000+ years ago, in context, these were precise technical terms, with specific definitions.

    They were part of ‘The System for Finding God’, to translate it into a modern Western Christianised context. But the Divine was not conceived of as anything like the modern Western Christian Biblical concept. (Or, rather, concepts, because there are very many varieties.)

    That’s something that we Westerners impose upon Eastern culture.
    There were all kinds of words used in, for example, pre-modern Western alchemy, which were symbolic, technical terms, which represented things which no modern english speaking person has any concept of at all. To use those words now and throw them about and expect to be understood would be ridiculous.

    That, imo, is the equivalent of what R. D. does. It does not help anybody to understand anything. It merely presents a veneer of mystery and the opaque occult persona of a guru. What’s the point of that ?
    I mean, shall we discuss phlogiston and aether and the Philosopher’s Stone ? hahaha

    The original buddhist texts in the Pali Canon and subsequent commentaries give fairly clear and distinct descriptions and instructions. They are like recipes for cooking, or route maps to find a place. They are as exact in detail as it was possible for them to be. The authors have gone to great trouble over every word.

    There is then the addition problem of translation into english, but authors have worked hard at that. And now we have modern brain scan technology which shows how all those subjective states correspond with empirical observable measurable neurological phenomena.

    See, e.g. Anupada Sutta, referred to here

    But, a quite separate point, what do these strange states mean ?

    They don’t sit all that comfortably within the Eastern paradigms.
    There’s no need for there to be siddhis, for there to be a very satisfactory moral and ethical code and a full cosmology that includes birth and life and death and the Buddha’s Eightfold Path, or any of the other social frameworks for how to behave.

    They fit even less well into Western paradigms, out on the fringe of science, where they can only make any sense when allied with the most radical visions from the physicists.

    But they seem to be telling us that we have some potential that we simply do not comprehend and that the vast majority of us, whether from the religious or scientific wings, are unwilling even to consider.

  • “Nuclear fission? No guv! it wasn’t us! Never heard of it!

    You couldn’t make it up.. Once, this stuff was going to take us to the stars.. Now we think about ways to bury it as far into the Earth as possible, like a guilty secret. This is, in all senses of the word, the heaviest stuff on the planet, it wants to sink. That’s where most of it was, before we dug it up. Now, after monkeying around with it for seventy years, we have immense problems working out how to put it back again. Playing the starring role in his own black comedy, Homo sap, Having tried so desperately to overcome gravity, now can’t even get the heaviest known elements to plummet back into the abysmal cavern that he found them in…

  • KK: try “vaping” – the electronic cigarettes. My two oldest sons quit smoking and only use these now. They’re much less intrusive (they don’t emit smoke, per se – it doesn’t smell at all) and you inhale far less toxic by-products and a cooler vapor than traditional cigarettes. Just a suggestion.

    Well, we’re all familiar with events from the JFK assassination on (of course there were some before this, but we didn’t realize they were ‘constructed’ back then). Now “they” hold a “drill” which just coincidently, time and time again, occurs on the same exact day (and now place and time too) as the event “they” are supposedly protecting us from. 911, the Colorado theater shooting, various mall and school shooting events like Sandy Hook, and now even Fukushima is proven to be a hoax in the sense that it was deliberately set up. Look:

    (56 min. well-documented video by Hatrick Penry, linked from seemorerocks site yesterday)

    There’s so much happening – more arrests of the natives up in Canada trying to keep the pipeline from their lands; Thom Hartman has another video out about methane called Scorched Earth; plankton are at record low levels off the Northeast Shelf; a chemical spill at a rail yard caused evacuation in Ohio last night; and finally (though there’s much more) the Midwest drought this year may become even worse than the last one.

    (quote from same site above)

    Ongoing winter storms won’t be doing much to relieve some drought-stricken areas of the U.S. In fact, conditions could get worse in the Southwest and Southeast, according to the National Oceanic and Atmosphere Administration.

    NOAA last week forecast below-average precipitation for those regions this winter, meaning that “after some relief during the past few months,” the Southwest’s three-year drought is likely to redevelop and spread to the Southeast.

    In 2012, the U.S. suffered through the most severe and extensive drought in 25 years, according to the Department of Agriculture. Some 80 percent of all U.S. agricultural land experienced drought last year.

    The drought cost some $40 billion in lost crops and livestock, along with 123 related deaths in 2012, according to the National Climatic Data Center.
    Now, of course winter is just getting started and the forecasters can’t really predict with certainty what will happen, but it’s based on their long-range models (which haven’t been too far off). We’ll see.

    Ok, one more important one: EPA RADnet reports from 2011 (they began monitoring on Day 1 of Fukushima explosion) stated that radioactive plutonium and strontium from Fukushima have been bombarding the west coast of the U.S. since March 18th, 2011.

    (quote from article, same site)

    Plutonium was found from Alaska. to San Francisco California. and down into Guam from 03/18/2011

    • Strontium was detected in the United States on 03/18/2011

    • Isotopes found not released in public reports Plutonium, Strontium and Cesium

    (he lists tables of results and links and concludes with)

    In the mean time, you can get to the EPA data yourself, though it is rather confusing.

    1. Start here: Final step of the advanced custom EPA Radnet data search here. [he provides the link[

    2. Then simply enter 3/11/2011 as the start date and today’s date as the end date.

    3. Scroll down click the radionuclides to include in the results, for example plutonium.

    4. Finally click search database to view the results or download to CSV to save the results on your PC.

    Again h/t to Lucas for making the original discovery that the EPA had hidden this data from the public results they have been compiling.

  • “My point, ( Re R. Datta, ananda, nirvana, etc.) was that originally, 2000+ years ago, in context, these were precise technical terms, with specific definitions.

    They were part of ‘The System for Finding God’, to translate it into a modern Western Christianised context. But the Divine was not conceived of as anything like the modern Western Christian Biblical concept. (Or, rather, concepts, because there are very many varieties.)

    That’s something that we Westerners impose upon Eastern culture.
    There were all kinds of words used in, for example, pre-modern Western alchemy, which were symbolic, technical terms, which represented things which no modern english speaking person has any concept of at all. To use those words now and throw them about and expect to be understood would be ridiculous.”-UF

    You really should pitch this stuff at Ka and Ashvin on the Diner. They will go to Philosophical Town with it. LOL.


  • volcanoes:

    The Volcano In Indonesia Is One Of 35 Currently Erupting Volcanoes: Here’s Where They Are [MAP]

  • With thanks to RE for his contribution, I’ve posted anew. The latest essay comes from Judith Haran, and it’s here.

  • @KK – Hang in there. The withdrawal from smoking addiction takes longer than commonly understood. I went through all of that myself. Constant use of tobacco (or pot for that matter) profoundly alters brain chemistry, and it takes some time for the natural endorphins, dopamine, etc. to resume normal balance and functioning – then you will gradually feel better than when you were smoking. The main thing is don’t smoke even one inhale, it will trigger the addiction to return in a hot minute. Good luck, it’s really worth it quitting. BTW Your remarks about the inner dictionary we each carry were beautiful and so true. This is a major aspect of the archetypal Tower of Babel puzzle that is the root of so many of our problems. Forms of dialog designed to loosen and undo these tricky knots would be an integral part of any sane culture.

    @Robin Datta – The One is the Many. The Many are the One. Illusions are Divine. The shitstick in the outhouse is The Divine Reality. There is only That in its Unity/Diversity. Ignorance, illusions, evil are all The Divine Love/Radiance, and at the same time ignorance, illusions, and evil are unfortunately what they are, and need to be corrected, or suffered, or recognized for the hidden Divinity that they are in truth. This should be as clear as dark muddy water!

    @Ulvfugl – I treat my chats with Robin as a sort of zen mondo exchange or Tibetan Buddhist debate exercise, neither of which have any profound meaning, and must leave others including Robin and myself wondering what the hell we are talking about. Maybe its just an illustration of “Those who talk do not know; those who know do not talk.” Silence is golden, eh? But we like to chatter. Who knows, maybe we could get lucky and utter a few words of truth from time to time? Of course we probably would lose them in the ongoing mass of nonsense…

    “…we have some potential that we simply do not comprehend…(and) are unwilling even to consider.” Some are considering such realities. Michael Murphy is an explorer of those dimensions, largely due to his study of Sri Aurobindo. Desperate times require unusual efforts in unexpected directions. It goes without saying that there are no proofs or guarantees on such a quest, but let’s not write the venture off because of uncertainty. The unknown may be more fruitful than the debacle being enacted within the structures of the supposedly known… The Roundtable Knights were instructed in their search for the Grail to “enter the forest at the darkest part…”

  • @ RE

    Well, sorry to dump it onto your thread here, where it’s not strictly relevant, but it’s part of the ongoing haggling between the factions and schools of thought.

    The Existentialists, the Nihilists, the Postmodernists, etc, all make a big deal about the meaninglessness of it all, whatever, following Sartre, but it was all known and sorted out by the Buddhists (and others) a couple of thousand years ago.

    “I looked anxiously around me: the present, nothing but the present. Furniture light and solid, rooted in its present, a table, a bed, a closet with a mirror-and me. the true nature of the present revealed itself: it was what exists, and all that was not present did not exist. The past did not exist. Not at all. Not in things, not even in my thoughts. It is true that I had realized a long time ago that mine had escaped me. But until then I had believed that it had simply gone out of my range. For me the past was only a pensioning off: it was another way of existing, a state of vacation and inaction; each event, when it had played its part, put itself politely into a box and became an honorary event: we have so much difficulty imagining nothingness. Now I knew: things are entirely what they appear to be-and behind them… there is nothing.”

  • Future Unknown

    Sometimes I feel that I must weep
    We might be on the edge of doom
    I lie awake, I cannot sleep
    So many promises to keep
    Once more, I feel that I must weep
    The news is filled with too much gloom
    How many of us sigh and weep
    Because these messages of doom
    Into our nightly dreams can creep
    And when I wake, I have to weep
    For promises I will never keep
    For prophets’ words that someday soon
    All of us will sigh and weep
    When standing on the edge of doom.

  • @18000 days Excellent comment.

    @pilot See my comment from previous post re: wild game situation here in SD.
    The noose is ever so quickly tightening.

    @Christy & logspirit I have yet to respond to your last comments to me, but I will, as soon as I get a little chunk of time!!

    @all Oddly enough, there has been a breakthrough within my family, as in no one has been receptive to information regarding our planetary predicament. Until now. I had given up on trying to communicate with all of them, but when I talked with one of my sisters two days ago and found out my niece would be going to S. California for a soccer tournament, I could not, in good conscience, stay silent. I know the urgency of the Fukushima situation is still disputed, but there is word that another radiation plume will be arriving on the west coast any day. I gave her some good info- as non-alarmist and most informative as I could find. Strange that for her to become receptive to this info, she had to be shunned by a couple other family members during our Thanksgiving ‘holiday’.
    Life can be funny like that, eh.

    I traded every beyond, every someday,
    for heaven in my lifetime. Now I’m dying

    of my life. Now I’m alive
    inside my death.

    -Li-Young Lee

  • “Well, sorry to dump it onto your thread here, where it’s not strictly relevant, but it’s part of the ongoing haggling between the factions and schools of thought.”-UF

    No issues, I am used to it. Philosophical Thread-Jacking is a Diner tradition.

    Happy Thanksgiving, Uber-Doomers!


  • @ RE


    @ mike k

    Leave old concepts at the door with your hat and shoes – you can always pick them up again on the way out, if they still fit!

  • @kling- Thanks for the heads up, however I watched that video some time ago. I will say that it doesn’t seem quite so ominous any more while staring NTE in the face. In fact things that seemed so all fired important last year seem trivial this year. Next year it may get pared down to just survival.

    At this point let the poor psychopathic jerks hide underground. It gets them out from under foot.

  • @Ulvfugl – I read “A Heart Blown Open” about Denis Kelly (Jun Po) when it came out 2yrs ago. Interesting. I checked out his website then. I guess I may be a bit like you – piecing together my way from things picked up from many teachers, largely supplementing that with what arises in my own inner world. I try to keep lots of empty space in my mind, and not become too attached to ideas or teachers. After all, a quest is about what we don’t know – yet. Journey on traveler, something waits for you beyond what you think you know…

  • @ KK
    Good to know you enjoyed the words. Sometimes they have utility. Apparently that is the best we can do for each other now. Some solace, some empathy, some courage, some light. The moments are intensifying as our last stretch of time passes away. I hope you make the most of them.

    Oh, and on the smoking… been there, years ago… Hint: Keep reminding yourself that the habit isn’t in charge, no matter what sort of temper tantrum it throws. Quicken your resolve. It gets much easier with distance. Soon you’ll wonder how you ever tolerated it at all… your taste buds will start working again, along with your nose… and the shocking realization of what the putrid stuff actually smells like will be astounding. Nobody needs a bad ‘friend’ like that. Just walk away, knowing why. Eating a lot of fresh fruit helps (preferably organic if you can find and afford it). Vitality and the equanimity it provides is increasingly important as the world goes critical. Don’t be impatient, it will take some time for your body to repair itself. And I do not agree with the idea of using those electronic nicotine vapor delivery systems – they keep you addicted. Cut it off clean and let the healing begin.

    @ Badlands
    No rush on responding… Hope the advice is useful.

  • @ mike k

    I know. If you become an enlightened buddha you are dead, static, fixed, finished. So, always becoming, this, then this, then this… 🙂

    Just a bag of skin and bones channelling the Universe, day after day…

  • Reverse Engineer,

    Too late now to save everyone, for sure. I am not foolish enough or deluded enough to think that is possible. However, the outcome is not written in stone, I can argue with Guy on many points on the feedback loops.

    My thoughts too. Have you blogged on the feedback loops at all?

  • No, not specifically on feedback loops. My contribution to the Climate Change debate comes in the form of Geotectonic theory.

    Another of the Diner Bloggers (WHD) Critiqued it also

    While I am quite sure we are exacerbating a bad situation through Industrial Carbon emmissions, on an energetic level this is all dwarfed by what is going on Geotectonically with the earth. You cannot account for increasing vulcanism and earthquakes through anthropogenic causation. Something else is at work to do this, and the energy release here is fantastic, in the petajoules.

    So even if we stopped industrial living on a dime, this contribution to the climate change cycle would continue onward a while longer, until whatever is causing it stops causing it.

    On the feedback level, I look at the Pleistocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum mainly here. SOMETHING of indeterminate nature caused a reversal of the heating trend, despite very high CO2 content in the atmosphere. I think there is likely another feedback not yet identified which prevents a Venusian style cooking to occur.

    We still have a bad outcome here far as Homo Sapiens is concerned of course, but it is not necessarily destined for Extinction Level. It is a possible outcome, but not written in stone.


  • @RE

    You missed my point entirely.
    In my view, your thinking will, in the greater wholeness of all that is, only make things worse.

  • I am continually humbled as discover over and over again that people much more insightful than I have been tried to warn us long ago of our dire need to change direction.

    References to Jackson Browne I find particularly disturbing. His career has spanned my teens, twenties and thirties. I have heard his songs playing over the years hundreds of time and only in the last few months have I actually listened to the lyrics.

    It bothers me that I had / have been so wrapped up in my own agendas that I could not see all the things that should have been obvious. I wonder what obvious things I am failing to notice now?

    I would like to remind myself and everyone else that although we all have a personal stake in coming events, ultimately this is not about us. It has never been about us. Do not confuse the car with the driver.

    We are just one link in a causal chain of events that precedes us by billions of years and continues past us by many more. We are just one “intelligent” species in an untold multitude that span time and space.

    I feel that we would make better use of our remaining time finding a way to pass the torch gracefully instead of crying about our time being up. Perhaps there is a way we can positively influence the next “link” in the chain? How about some kind of record of who we were and what we did along with a DNA library. We could make many copies and send them to space. Perhaps some intelligence will find one and make good use of it.

    Perhaps some intelligence will find a copy some day and perhaps it may help. If nothing else it may keep our memories alive.

    Call it “The Alexandria Beacon” for lack of a better name.

  • Christy, you can’t GET worse than extinction.


  • RE, That’s what you think.

    My suggestion:

    Go out, alone, into some remote, wild place for at least a few days. Eat lightly, only pure foods and water, or fast if you have the extra fuel to burn. Spend all of your days walking, sitting and lying down on the Earth. Get real, real quiet. Ask her what she wants. Then we can talk more.

  • Worse than extinction would be an endless evil distopia. Extinction would be a blessing preferable to that. We should ask, survival of what?

  • @DF

    That scenario was covered in a Star Trek Next Generation episode, The Inner Light.

    My guess would be Ray Kurzweil will take all the information on the Google servers and drop it on a fewspacecraft headed outward from our solar system to parts unknown.

    In all likelihood, what you keyboard out today will still be on a chip in a thousand years as the hunk of metal flies by Betelgeuse. 🙂


  • @Christy

    I have a better idea. Go live in a snow cave for 2 months with 3 guys and 6 huskies and get back to me. BTDT, own the T-shirt. I live in ALASKA dude. The Last Great Frontier. I live here in large part because it is one of the last remaining places on Earth you can still FEEL GAIA.

    I as big a tree hugger as the next greeny out there. However, I do understand the principle of triage also.


  • Our lives are buried under mountains of engineering that needs to be reversed, undone. We are victims of sorcerer’s apprentices who have locked the wise wizards out, while their mad experiments unwind out of control. Too smart adult children are playing with our human destiny without a clue what it means. We got here by exploiting intelligence without wisdom. Too smart for our own good.

    Long ago…

    No one tore the ground with plowshares

    Or parceled out the land

    Or swept the sea with dipping oars —

    The shore was the world’s end.

    Clever human nature, victim of your inventions,

    Disastrously creative,

    Why cordon cities with towered walls?

    Why arm for war?

    Ovid, Amores, Book 3

  • Plato understood that our basic problem was how to put the wise in a position to guide and control our affairs. The same problem we have as individuals trying to wisely guide and control our own wayward chariots pulled willy-nilly by the uncooperative horses of our desires and passions. In both cases the lack of wise executive control will inevitably lead to disaster.

  • Alaska? Fukushima.
    ’nuff said.
    We cannot escape the toxic fallout of Industrial Civilization.
    Worse, many of us will betray our own hearts to survive….

  • @RE

    You are not listening to me. And that is a microcosmic demonstration of the whole problem here on planet Earth.

    Sounds like you had a rugged, male bonding adventure with your buddies. Great. Not what I was talking about.

    Go ahead and keep fantasizing about your plan. It reminds me a little of that movie Pacific Rim, which I saw a bit of when my sons were watching it. Really offensive and useless imo, but hey, if it keeps your chin up… we all need something to do. If there is a respectful way to deal with the radiation, someone else will have to discover it, since you are preoccupied.

    If it is possible to heal this world — to transform the poison into harmless or less harmful matter, to transform the climate into stable conditions — it would involve the help and cooperation of the Earth and her children (plants, animals, fungi, minerals, water, etc.) as all who abide here must always work together in harmony. These are all engaged already, especially water, obviously, but if we worked together with them, asked for their wisdom and help and applied it… Perhaps it is just too late. But if it isn’t, that is the only way I can see healing happening. For example, I have heard and read little bits about zeolite and fungi as being able to absorb and break down radiation, respectively. But I have not researched this, and I don’t know what is entailed in working with those. Seems like a decent starting place of investigation.

    This is not new age mumbo jumbo. This is the way it works. Life works together, cooperates, to create harmony and balance, and must also do so to restore balance. We have screwed it up so bad because we do not follow this simple law of nature. Any solutions must comply with this law, or continue to create problems. Your actions must be based on an understanding that encompasses the reality of the whole if you want to reestablish harmony and balance. That seems like a worthy, integrated goal, rather than trying to ‘prevent extinction.’

    Yes, many creatures will die. They are going to do so with or without the radiation because of the climate chaos. And once IC and we humans are gone the planet can get back to restoring harmony and balance, according to her, without our interference. It will take a long, long time, according to our puny reference point. But the Earth has a different experience of time than we do.

    And, fyi, I prefer not to be called ‘dude.’ The word does not, in any way, apply to me.

    Last but not least, thanks for your essay. I appreciate your contribution.

  • “This is not new age mumbo jumbo.”-C

    Yes, it is.


  • ‘The way to transcend karma lies in the proper use of the mind and will. The oneness of all life is a truth that can be fully realized only when false notions of a separate self, whose destiny can be considered apart from the whole, are forever annihilated.’

    Bruce Lee